Climate Change
It's the question of our time.
Of course there's a role for government in our market economies in the form of encouraging research and development, in taxes, subsidies and regulation, and in helping foster the business conditions that make it profitable for business to adapt.
Permission to think about a proper coherent response to it Bonza.
But when I google "climate change solutions" and read the immediate links that come up from nasa, greenpeace, climate council, scientific american, nature, unep, permaculture websites, etc, it seems that the solutions are all there and obvious.
And when I flick through my textbooks on environmental economics from my undergraduate degree in economics, I remember how much I once believed in this stuff (such as a carbon tax) and it seems that the solutions are in there and obvious too.
But I now realise that the issue of the environment is not as simple as being just about the environment, but is very multifaceted, also incorporating:
- geopolitical security concerns
- questions of human rights and development fairness, including colonialism
- wonderings about the responsiveness of democratic/capitalist type systems vs authoritarian/state planned type systems
- questions marks over science
- uncertainty about the future particularly in terms of human ingenuity and creativity
- questions about values
- etc, many more.
Mate everything you just said. Is exactly what everyone here except indo has been saying. Why are you arguing with yourself ?
I don't mind. tbh I haven't been following this thread.
If I appear uninformed then it's because I switched off from the debate when we lost the carbon tax, which from an economic perspective seemed like a sensible, if imperfect, step forwards.
If anything in here the last few days I'm arguing against some colleagues in an employment/academia setting who've been lecturing me recently that "climate change is real" and on "debunking climate change myths" and on the "devastating impacts of climate change" but when I go around to their house for dinner they're living the most energy guzzling, environmentally destructive lifestyles with all the modern toys and conveniences of anyone.
Those inauthentic academic frauds need to shut the fuck up.
In here I think I'm just venting what I'm too gutless to say to their faces.
But it's just an internet forum so I don't care.
Lucky for me I get to wake up to a beautiful day on the beach at the Sunny Coast and the people suffering the effects of climate change due to my modern lifestyle are worlds away...
Fair enough.
Now over to indo on the virtues of a carbon tax. Hahah
AndyM wrote:Dunno what those mining companies are whinging about, a bobcat and a couple of lads on shovels and this place will be good as new in a weekend.
You people do my head in, without these mines you wouldn't be here commenting, pretty much everything we physically own is only possible because of mining.
BTW. This photo is perhaps the worst example possible, its a pretty small mining site and very well contained, zoom in and have a look at the landscape outside the edge of the mine it appears as it possibly has for thousands of years and once that mine is finished even if not rehabilitated it will soon be taken over by nature again.
Australia has some of the strictest environmental practises and regulation in the world, unlike developing countries, where regulation is very weak and those outer areas around the border often become contaminated.
Anyway heres a much better photo of mass environmental destruction, Melbourne city, this will always look like this it will never be lush and green with life again, not my scene but i guess the Green voters have to live somewhere.
bonza wrote:Now over to indo on the virtues of a carbon tax. Hahah
Is that the thing the Greens voted against?
touche
Big move by Yvon and Patagonia here..
Good on him!
https://www.patagonia.com/ownership/?utm_source=instagram&utm_medium=social
Craig wrote:Big move by Yvon and Patagonia here..
Good on him!
https://www.patagonia.com/ownership/?utm_source=instagram&utm_medium=social
Just came across this story , that’s a huge contribution. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-15/patagonia-gives-company-to-climat...
Robwilliams wrote:abc news
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-20/qld-floods-volunteers-clean-up-wa...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-20/nt-origin-quitting-beetaloo-proje...
That first link could do with some patagonia money
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2022/09/world-enters-new-coal-golden-age/
"Prices never budge below $300 per tonne. This is FAR above the entire global cost curve. Indeed, it is so far above it that markets are incentivising a new golden age of coal. Pretty much every gram of unmined coal anywhere is going to be dug up and burned."
sorry crew, truly sorry.
You know, I posted up in the erosion thread a few great links about Gero but swellnet must be an east coast site or something as they didn't seem to raise much discussion. What you are looking at in the Point Moore footage is a 10-15cm sea level rise (brought on in this case by prolonged La Nina increasing the size/flow of the Leeuwin current)... it's a perfect example of what the models predict. It's an actual sea level rise to show what that might look like. Standing there under an eroded foredune exposed at 16-20ft, I was shocked.
I went to many other beaches in the midwest and couldn't find erosion similar to that in town, however. Did I detect a slightly steeper foredune at Backers, maybe a little more rock exposed at flatties... maybe all the groynes/marina shenanigans have particularly starved the town coast of sand... Is it the sand mining which continues at Southgates - are we beginning to see starvation from this?
At any rate the Leeuwin current has been in full effect and the sea level rose.
edit: gsco, great comments at top of thread. It wasn't capitalism, it was more... people and technology.
velocityjohnno wrote:https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2022/09/world-enters-new-coal-golden-age/
"Prices never budge below $300 per tonne. This is FAR above the entire global cost curve. Indeed, it is so far above it that markets are incentivising a new golden age of coal. Pretty much every gram of unmined coal anywhere is going to be dug up and burned."
sorry crew, truly sorry..
Saw that.
Speaking of coal for all the Adani haters, here's the Carmichael mine now
And the ROM pad (Run of mine stockpile area)
Ah scale...
Will never forget being on a mineral sands enterprise somewhere with the 1200 ton crusher/heater thing rotating splendidly and massively, and asking "what is it making?"
"Food additives."
Spat my coffee.
velocityjohnno wrote:Ah scale...
Will never forget being on a mineral sands enterprise somewhere with the 1200 ton crusher/heater thing rotating splendidly and massively, and asking "what is it making?""Food additives."
Spat my coffee.
You’ve got me VJ…. what sort of additives? Titanium?!
Close Distracted. .
Titanium dioxide and Silicon dioxide are used as food additives.
stunet wrote:That may be so - though personally I wouldn't consider 50 million years "not that long ago" in a conversation about human habitation.
The current 'fluctuation' perfectly marks the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, meaning it's almost certainly due to emissions released since then. On that point alone, we have some obligation to our immediate generations.
Stunet. Finally, someone’s talking sense. ✅
VJ, when you say you were on a mineral sands enterprise, was it the Enterprise lease by any chance?
Hi Andy, wasn't that one, can't say further. I had the best job in the universe, so many varied and different sites all over the country, meeting new people every time, so much to see, and time to drive/fly there to have your own thoughts and suss out how it (geographically, botanically etc) is all put together.
Robwilliams wrote:abc news
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-27/southern-cassowary-population-sig...
Robwilliams. good one mate, thanks and great news. Gotta laugh at the ABC’s quick preamble, why do many headlines start with ‘dangerous’when referencing animals. Yes, they will go you if chicks are in the vicinity but anyone who has been injured by a bird is usually too close or fucking up near them. A majestic animal and part of a very old lineage of birds the ‘ratites’.
They play a very important role in the Wet Tropics as dispersal agents for rainforest plants and trees. They eat a shitload of fruits and seeds and are prolific shitters, they leave big ovate shaped turds everywhere which other invertebrates dispose of over time. I’ve seen them around Lake Eacham on the Atherton tablelands, often two or three and sometimes with chicks hiding on the fringes of the forest. Admire and observe from a distance is the best advice.
Excellent Alfred .
Abc news
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-28/questions-over-land-clearing-in-n...
Robwilliams wrote:Excellent Alfred .
Abc news
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-28/questions-over-land-clearing-in-n...
Robwilliams. Bit by bit we will have Australia cleared before we know it. We are one fucked up nation that keeps caving in to the farming sector. This bits fucked, ‘Can I have some more, this bits fucked now, Can I have some more ????!!!!
I live in a farming area but I’m not a farmer. I’ve revegetated our property over 21 years, truly rewarding, collected seed provenance to our locale, easy success. NONE of the farming families around here care for the land or the environment around them. They shoot anything that moves including, all macropods, cockatoos, corellas, galahs and other birds, all out of sheer ignorance. Sadly of late, a mob of kangaroos (68) I’d being collecting population data from for ten months with a total hierarchy of joeys, young animals, alpha males and females were eradicated overnight by silencer weapons. Farmers here burn rubbish and bury hundreds of plastic 20litre herbicide drums in their own personal tips, despite there being a ‘drum muster’ collection program in place. I’ve got two decades of photos and video of all the aforementioned. It’s just up my sleeve if I ever need it.
Nationally you here some good examples of care coming from some farmers, but really it’s an absolute minority. A farmer in Gippsland, Victoria claimed and was poorly fined for killing 406 Wedge-tailed Eagles in one year. There is NO hope.
Does anyone know of a source that forecasts the cost of kwh as we switch to renewable energy? Often I see the claims that renewables will bring 'cheap power to Australians'
But how cheap? $0.20 per kwh, $0.10 per kwh, zero...? I read an announcement by the Victorian government about GW storage targets by 2035 which is great to see. But I noticed a claim about 'providing cheap electricity to residents...'. There are so many claims like this thrown around but without actually specifying what cheap means I see it as a form of populism.
My whole life I always looked at the cost of kwh I'm paying and the consumption requirements of the appliances that I'm using. I know exactly how much each thing is costing me. So if anyone has a reliable source that is specific about the retail cost of kwh forecasts per energy source it would be good to learn more about it. It would also be good to see some target commitment from the politicians about it as well.
flollo wrote:Does anyone know of a source that forecasts the cost of kwh as we switch to renewable energy? Often I see the claims that renewables will bring 'cheap power to Australians'
But how cheap? $0.20 per kwh, $0.10 per kwh, zero...? I read an announcement by the Victorian government about GW storage targets by 2035 which is great to see. But I noticed a claim about 'providing cheap electricity to residents...'. There are so many claims like this thrown around but without actually specifying what cheap means I see it as a form of populism.
My whole life I always looked at the cost of kwh I'm paying and the consumption requirements of the appliances that I'm using. I know exactly how much each thing is costing me. So if anyone has a reliable source that is specific about the retail cost of kwh forecasts per energy source it would be good to learn more about it. It would also be good to see some target commitment from the politicians about it as well.
It's all smoke and mirrors, follo.
Maximise your rooftop solar and home battery storage (having all electrical household appliances) being the only currently available/affordable option to minimise your exposure to the vagaries of power supply. They haven't taxed the Sun... yet
flollo wrote:Does anyone know of a source that forecasts the cost of kwh as we switch to renewable energy? Often I see the claims that renewables will bring 'cheap power to Australians'
But how cheap? $0.20 per kwh, $0.10 per kwh, zero...? I read an announcement by the Victorian government about GW storage targets by 2035 which is great to see. But I noticed a claim about 'providing cheap electricity to residents...'. There are so many claims like this thrown around but without actually specifying what cheap means I see it as a form of populism.
My whole life I always looked at the cost of kwh I'm paying and the consumption requirements of the appliances that I'm using. I know exactly how much each thing is costing me. So if anyone has a reliable source that is specific about the retail cost of kwh forecasts per energy source it would be good to learn more about it. It would also be good to see some target commitment from the politicians about it as well.
Follo. hows things ? Our family has no energy bills but still paying annual rates to our shire, thats it. I simply don’t get it with most peoples view towards removing themselves from the bosom of ‘fossil fuel’ use. It’s not about how much it costs for solar or the low feed in tariff input rates into the grid. Surely this is about as a nation, doing what’s right for our country and its prolonged survival of all biota.
Go to any state government web site, ample incentives and rebate schemes, payback packages, zero interest loans etc. for all things ‘better energy’, its all there. We have a 6kw system coupled with an evacuated tube hot water system (great NSW company, Apricus making quality equipment) and live life with no energy bills or emissions from our family home.
Green rebate schemes have been in existence for decades. When that slimy xenophobic prick John Howard was in power, he deliberately hid the big fund allocated to a rebate scheme for it to only be discovered in his last year of tenure. He is a fucking cunt, arsehole, racist, xenophobic moron, once a big component of The White Australia policy movement I’ll remind us all.
It’s simple, at the age of 40, a long time ago, wife and i looked at our annual energy bills, approximately $2000. We summised we may live to 80years. So, therefore if we lived another 40 years we’d be paying out at least $80,000 or more to a fossil fuel energy company, well thats not happening.
Spend now, to save way more down the track, invest in whatever alternative energy you can and it wont cost the planet or your hard earned living, besides, who wants to keep giving money to those organisations who are our gross polluters. Just my opinion. AW
flollo wrote:Does anyone know of a source that forecasts the cost of kwh as we switch to renewable energy? Often I see the claims that renewables will bring 'cheap power to Australians'
But how cheap? $0.20 per kwh, $0.10 per kwh, zero...? I read an announcement by the Victorian government about GW storage targets by 2035 which is great to see. But I noticed a claim about 'providing cheap electricity to residents...'. There are so many claims like this thrown around but without actually specifying what cheap means I see it as a form of populism.
My whole life I always looked at the cost of kwh I'm paying and the consumption requirements of the appliances that I'm using. I know exactly how much each thing is costing me. So if anyone has a reliable source that is specific about the retail cost of kwh forecasts per energy source it would be good to learn more about it. It would also be good to see some target commitment from the politicians about it as well.
Follo. hows things ? Our family has no energy bills but still paying annual rates to our shire, thats it. I simply don’t get it with most peoples view towards removing themselves from the bosom of ‘fossil fuel’ use. It’s not about how much it costs for solar or the low feed in tariff input rates into the grid. Surely this is about as a nation, doing what’s right for our country and its prolonged survival of all biota.
Go to any state government web site, ample incentives and rebate schemes, payback packages, zero interest loans etc. for all things ‘better energy’, its all there. We have a 6kw system coupled with an evacuated tube hot water system (great NSW company, Apricus making quality equipment) and live life with no energy bills or emissions from our family home.
Green rebate schemes have been in existence for decades. When that slimy xenophobic prick John Howard was in power, he deliberately hid the big fund allocated to a rebate scheme for it to only be discovered in his last year of tenure. He is a fucking cunt, arsehole, racist, xenophobic moron, once a big component of The White Australia policy movement I’ll remind us all.
It’s simple, at the age of 40, a long time ago, wife and i looked at our annual energy bills, approximately $2000. We summised we may live to 80years. So, therefore if we lived another 40 years we’d be paying out at least $80,000 or more to a fossil fuel energy company, well thats not happening.
Spend now, to save way more down the track, invest in whatever alternative energy you can and it wont cost the planet or your hard earned living, besides, who wants to keep giving money to those organisations who are our gross polluters. Just my opinion. AW
"It’s not about how much it costs for solar or the low feed in tariff input rates into the grid."
its everything to do about cost.
@flollo. https://www.withouthotair.com/
this was first published in 2005. been updated since. Its free! I came across it back around 2012. I still haven't had a better resource to help understand your question.
There is a chapter on costs here - https://www.withouthotair.com/c28/page_214.shtml
the book is outstanding and free and in plain english. which on a topic i don't know too much about has been extremely helpful to me. UK centric but still very relevant
bonza wrote:"It’s not about how much it costs for solar or the low feed in tariff input rates into the grid."
its everything to do about cost.
Bonza. Good feedback. Depends on what you value in life wouldn’t you think. In Victoria, its very easy to get a system installed through the state governments Solar Homes Victoria, there are other rebates available for hot water systems etc., and other incentives as previously mentioned interest free small loans where you pay around $35 per month, a few coffees and take out lunch soon adds up. Again, depends on what you value in life. I know what I value. Do you ?
for most people and corporations the main if only priority remains profit and cash flow. if one ignores those "values" then you have got a snowflakes chance in hell of making any sort of difference. That is the only reason why we are seeing uptake from big business in renewables and it bothers me not. Its the best if not only tool to effect change. yours and mine feels for the earth mean bugger all and will do bugger all to reduce GHG
you also ignore the rental class scum - a growing and sizeable chunk of our nation - who don't have the luxury to access rebates, schemes or do anything significant that can reduce their GHG footprint at their primary residence.
Bravo Queensland:
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/96232
The beginnings of this are already in place (eg the rare earths) but this is the solid policy background that will turbo-charge it.
.
Robwilliams wrote:abc news
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-04/lake-eyre-impact-of-gas-developme...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-04/federal-government-pledges-30-per...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-03/nt-rio-tinto-calls-for-era-chairm...
Hi Robwilliams. Thanks for posting those items, much appreciated. Ive got know idea how to upload stuff, bit of a dinosaur on computers. Keep well.
G'day Alfred I just use the copy paste highlight option at the bottom of abc articles or highlight the web address and copy. I know I put up a bit when time permits and was hoping someone as experienced as your self can add further insight if they wish. Allot of crew find it negative and allot is I understand that, but I believe education is part of change in the global garden. I know I tend to concentrate on all things environmental rather than focus of just climate change. Just trying to raise awareness in informing people of what is going on Australia wide and globally. Most is redirected from abc articles due to limited time.
Someone of your knowledge is invaluable where you can add something if you wish. I particularly enjoy swellnets ongoing articles of coastal environments as it is more relevant to surfing, but I'm a firm believer people should take an interest in how Australia's environments and global environments are used and managed. Especially if actions are detrimental or ethically unsound, every little bit counts. Not every one will agree or get it but it's people like yourself who have taught me about the natural world and the effects man has had on it good and bad.
Cheers Alfred swellnet abc and interested and pro active citizens of the world. I'm far from a radical greenie and younger than most on here but feel that positive change will always start and end with human knowledge and action. For me nothing beats the experiences I've had in the environments I've used. Some of those environments are currently healthy and some are rapidly declining. Maybe thats why I post. Sometimes it's frustrating but i believe we are more aware than we where 20yrs ago and people are trying to make positive change. Every bit count's in my opinion large or small. Take care of what you got. And here's to a healthier world.
Im not sure if this is the right place maybe it deserves a thread of its own as might become quite a big topic.
And that's the energy crisis especially in Europe that is really going to start getting tuff for them now winter is coming on.
I think we are really starting to see that Germany didn't think things through real well in regard to energy transition and security and while it feels like we are transitioning too slowly to renewables, it's possible that the opposite is true with at-least Germany pushing things faster than the technology allows.
Came across this randomly today on Spotify but here's the YouTube version complete with annoying chicken, worth a listen though.
Separate thread for that one Indo, it will be a big thing. Germany restarting coal fired stations (!!!!!) and apparently closing down nuclear (long lead in time, perhaps regret)
They'll be burning peat before this is out...
velocityjohnno wrote:Separate thread for that one Indo, it will be a big thing. Germany restarting coal fired stations (!!!!!) and apparently closing down nuclear (long lead in time, perhaps regret)
They'll be burning peat before this is out...
Yeah it is starting to go a bit off topic, going to be interesting to watch it play out.
They should have definitely waited until they had built up renewables before shutting down nuclear such a weird move, i guess it must have been based on life of the plants.
Also weird in that their last newly built coal fired power plant only just came online in May 2020, crazy that they were still building coal power plants so recently.
https://www.powermag.com/germany-brings-last-new-coal-plant-online/
Just out of interest, and a bit off topic - but not - this is how Europe lost much of its forests I believe:
out of further interest, it was the products derived from this that enabled the technology (shipbuilding and successful navigation) that saw all corners of the globe explored, first time ever/in last 10,000 years. Still way better than MEKP!
Robwilliams wrote:abc news
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-04/lake-eyre-impact-of-gas-developme...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-04/federal-government-pledges-30-per...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-03/nt-rio-tinto-calls-for-era-chairm...
@rob williams , the lake eyre story is on the 7.30 report abc tonight
Robwilliams wrote:G'day Alfred I just use the copy paste highlight option at the bottom of abc articles or highlight the web address and copy. I know I put up a bit when time permits and was hoping someone as experienced as your self can add further insight if they wish. Allot of crew find it negative and allot is I understand that, but I believe education is part of change in the global garden. I know I tend to concentrate on all things environmental rather than focus of just climate change. Just trying to raise awareness in informing people of what is going on Australia wide and globally. Most is redirected from abc articles due to limited time.
Someone of your knowledge is invaluable where you can add something if you wish. I particularly enjoy swellnets ongoing articles of coastal environments as it is more relevant to surfing, but I'm a firm believer people should take an interest in how Australia's environments and global environments are used and managed. Especially if actions are detrimental or ethically unsound, every little bit counts. Not every one will agree or get it but it's people like yourself who have taught me about the natural world and the effects man has had on it good and bad.
Cheers Alfred swellnet abc and interested and pro active citizens of the world. I'm far from a radical greenie and younger than most on here but feel that positive change will always start and end with human knowledge and action. For me nothing beats the experiences I've had in the environments I've used. Some of those environments are currently healthy and some are rapidly declining. Maybe thats why I post. Sometimes it's frustrating but i believe we are more aware than we where 20yrs ago and people are trying to make positive change. Every bit count's in my opinion large or small. Take care of what you got. And here's to a healthier world.
Robwilliams. Hi mate. How’s things ? . You are an interested young person across a wide range of topics and that pleases me immensely. I don’t posture to anyone or any organisation, never have and never will. You make your own mind up by good readings, research and life experiences but more importantly by what you are thinking and what you value across the many and varied facets of life. Go with your heart I’d say.
You are very correct in what you say, we all need an environmental and social conscience, how else do we function as a society if you are not thinking about others or the environment in which we are meant to be part of. I was in primary school in the early 70’s, even way back then I was getting in strife with teachers because I’d come to school with a few badges on my clothing highlighting major environmental concerns of the time, but I have great parents, who still to this day reinforce the point of being true to yourself, oddly my parents were never that way (environment)inclined. I just saw the intrinsic beauty that birds and plants offer as well as every biological organism I came and still come across today. Follow what you believe. I was into birds and plants by the age of 5, still am in a major way, incredibly fulfilling areas of interest as is surfing by the way. Us surfers are connected to the environment in many ways, so we should take care of it. I’ve been told off by people all my life for my views, how dare they, what did they have to offer to any of my concerns, nothing, fucking nothing, just uneducated criticism. I wrote a bird book in grade 6, won a state competition, chuffed, still have the prize, another bird book. Early musings lead me to starting a business at the age of 22, revegetation and habitat building, operated continuously for 33 years, always had work, again follow your heart and your interests. I’m mildly happy with my input to build better environments for all biota, but really just a drop in the ocean of what’s required to steer Australia in a better direction.
I’ve watched Australia slowly destroying itself right in front of our own very national eyes. We have all the knowledge we need but we have GREED.
We have shareholders, yep, the mum and dad folks investing in businesses that are forced to generate massive profit for their shareholders at a HUGE cost to the planet. Just so every little Bob and Jenny from Cronulla or Peter and Julie from Geelong or Merv and Myrtle from Balcatta can get there annual profit return so they can tow their enormous caravan to a Big 4 caravan park, sit in deck chairs like everyone else in the park and listen to the ‘serenity’ and return there year after year or decades in fact. Puke.
Cheers Alfred, as I said it people like you who have lead the way, and have so much to offer. Wether it be knowledge or experience. Thanks for the motivation and inspiration for positive change, And to all who have the occasional doubt or frustration in testing global times, just go with your heart. Because it starts and ends with us.
cheers Superfreak caught the replay.
andy-mac wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/05/wave-energy-machines...
Andy-Mac. Thanks, good article. Unfortunately the in between lines says it all. The head of Wave Swell Energy organisation will predominantly target European and US markets who are more supportive of the developing technology. Sums up Australia to a tee really, so, so slow on the uptake.
Approximately 25km from where we live, an entire farming community is up in arms over a proposed solar farm that would send its energy into the states grid with anticipation of us (Victorians) reaching zero carbon emissions (fossil fuel derived) by 2035. What the fuck is wrong with people ? As a well known British economist stated more than a decade ago, ’You Australians have had it too good for too long and its all about to come crashing down, your continent has essentially been a giant quarry for extractive industries and without it you’d be nothing’. Hard to argue with it.
.