Climate Change
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/greenpeace-co-founder-patrick-moore-sa...
That's stoopid... of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying
Anyhoo, an old friend of mine reckons the weather and floods etc are being "engineered"! I kid you not! You seen how big weather systems are... huuuge. Yep man can control weather now! Nup.
If what you say is true and humans can’t influence the weather, then you’d better get the word out there because many people believe that humans are changing the global climate and as a result we are all going to drown or freeze or starve or something else really, really bad.
A little more for conspiracy?. Why is education expertise the foundation of modern man when you can just lie, cheat and steal?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-09-09/climate-change-scientists...
Quote
Nah, fuck that, do your bit, try and live a good life, reduce your imprint, pray like fuck that you're wrong, but don't go putting guilt trips on people for "living a lie" and not "taking things seriously".
If I live a lie my whole life do I get a discount at death? And what is the point of higher education amongst the sciences if it is ignored or dismissed at whim? All or nothing has always been a bit limiting both argumentative and in action. No wonder we are failing. We are unable to adapt to possible looming truths at need. Keep burning raping and pillaging. Im sure we will go far after all we have our conspiracy theories and phones to save us.
harrycoopr wrote:DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/greenpeace-co-founder-patrick-moore-sa...
That's stoopid... of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying
Anyhoo, an old friend of mine reckons the weather and floods etc are being "engineered"! I kid you not! You seen how big weather systems are... huuuge. Yep man can control weather now! Nup.
It's so sad how many people have gone down this rabbit hole.
Had plenty of friends share me stuff which I've had to dispel. Gets me so angry.
Cool, Stu.
The book Sapiens (and many others) makes a good argument for roughly the idea that the ingenuity of humanity will find a way.
All I know is even setting aside climate change, things like resource and energy usage and shortages and crises, clean water and food shortages and crises, loss of biodiversity and habitat, other forms of pollution than climate change emissions, deforestation and salinity, loss of topsoil, etc - based on the current level of technology of humanity and global population size, for developing nations to catch up to us in gdp per capita, resource and energy usage, overall economic development and quality of life, the consequences for all these factors, and conflict over it all, is incomprehensible.
Climate change seems to be the least of one’s environmental worries.
But maybe I’m wrong and there’s nothing to worry about.
Consume at all costs. Our needed adaptation takes time but also some will see necessity and some will not. Thus if you are aware of changing climate and visible ongoing climate problems you may choose to make change. If not no worries but when the last boats full its full which ever generation bears the brunt of past inaction and deflection. How much money does one need for heaven or hell? Not much.
I absolutely agree that, if AGM is real, humans will find a way to survive; that human ingenuity will triumph.
Whether that happens in the lifetime of my kids and yours is a different matter.
Sounds melodramatic, hey?
Spot on. Sad that it's true but these are the times and what we have somewhat accepted. People are taking action and if the climate problems continue to increase they will become to large to be ignored. Transitioning to a healthier world has somewhat been stalled by vested interest, neglect and the too hard basket. Whilst on the other hand a whole number of people who are environmentally aware and concerned are taking action, big or large regardless. Every bit counts and momentum has been globally building amongst concerned citizens.
Environmental science is all around us regardless of the conspiracies being counter created, adapted or exaggerated. Keeping the truth off balance is easy it seems compared to accepting the scientific truths. Heads in the sand are just that heads in the sand. No denying it. Should I question my government before I question my teachers, lectures or advisors? Or just question them all? And why should I believe what is being dismissed when it has been proven scientifically as fact. Bit like the Russians and thier oblivious nature to the hazards of nuclear power in war zones. Farcical but it plays to an advantage so they exploit it. Maybe it's time to exploit those that exploit the truth to the betterment of modern man. No conspiracies no agendas but factual progression of proven science. From the classroom to the boardroom.
Craig wrote:harrycoopr wrote:DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/greenpeace-co-founder-patrick-moore-sa...
That's stoopid... of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying
Anyhoo, an old friend of mine reckons the weather and floods etc are being "engineered"! I kid you not! You seen how big weather systems are... huuuge. Yep man can control weather now! Nup.It's so sad how many people have gone down this rabbit hole.
Had plenty of friends share me stuff which I've had to dispel. Gets me so angry.
dunno that
its that 'stoopid'
'peace' was a big big part of 'greenpeace' back in the day...
as was 'green'...
one could argue that war was won... but one could also argue that the war machine just changed focus, and transposed it's issues onto less inconvenient grounds...
good article, raises many great points why a certain cohort has given up on greenpeace and many contemporary 'left' leaders
ya average biden's and pelosi's preaching to me - whilst changing practically nothing within their own lives - is insulting to say the least...
and a big part of that insult is the cultism, nicheness, and tokenism of their arguments... very similar to when turned up to the whitehouse or whereever it was, in 'traditional' african garb amidst the blm chaos...
their cluelessness and lack of self awareness is astounding
A little more for conspiracy?. Why is education expertise the foundation of modern man when you can just lie, cheat and steal?https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-09-09/climate-change-scientists...
Setting a flare on fire to draw attention to his fear of too many CO2 emissions: a scientist apparently…
Life may be easier and more convenient when some lie cheat and steal. But we may or may not live openly or for long depending on the circumstances or the circumstances to come. Society functions better with a common goal of health. Environmentally and socially. Proven through the ages. How ready are we to turn our backs on overall health for little gain? Both environmentally and socially worldwide? Time will tell.
Craig wrote:harrycoopr wrote:DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/greenpeace-co-founder-patrick-moore-sa...
That's stoopid... of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying
Anyhoo, an old friend of mine reckons the weather and floods etc are being "engineered"! I kid you not! You seen how big weather systems are... huuuge. Yep man can control weather now! Nup.It's so sad how many people have gone down this rabbit hole.
Had plenty of friends share me stuff which I've had to dispel. Gets me so angry.
got a mate and neighbour who buy into some of this shit
like most good 'conspiracies', buying in perhaps isn't as ridiculous as it may seem...
cloud seeding around jakarta to avert more flooding...
and, farmers cloud seeding to avert drought gives plenty of ammunition...
throw in a bit of chemtrails, changing weather, and gratuitous lying and exaggerating from governments and various groups..
and bingo!
waveman][quote=Robwilliams wrote:A little more for conspiracy?. Why is education expertise the foundation of modern man when you can just lie, cheat and steal?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-09-09/climate-change-scientists...
Setting a flare on fire to draw attention to his fear of too many CO2 emissions: a scientist apparently…
A flare is mild in comparison compared to a rock. Clutching at straws, whats the overall message? Keep picking the factual arguments apart. Just tell me when I can Lie cheat and steal. Im sure I can make a go of it if my education fails me or society leaves me no choice. Because after all we still have choice right? Who cares if its positive or not right or wrong socially or environmentally speaking. Playing the easy game is just that easy.
Couple of semi-random responses.
"of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying"
This seems obvious, how else are you going to assert your beliefs in a wider context other than by political means?
"It's so sad how many people have gone down this rabbit hole."
There appears to be a shitload of people out there who are going with the 'governments/corporations controlling weather' schtick.
People bail me up pretty regularly, unsolicited.
"There's no point addressing climate change until we deal with governments controlling the weather", they say. "After all, the Lismore floods were a plot against people who were questioning the narrative and knew the Truth."
"I've also seen many people fall apart at the immense foreboding AGW presents."
Good lord I feel sorry for the kids.
Between AGW, race, gender, sexism, colonialism, white guilt, bullying, housing affordability and all the other real and perceived issues (all supercharged by the media and social media) is it any wonder that depression and anxiety are through the roof?
Kids of today got to be strong. The time is now just as it was before and into the future. We are what we accept or create. No excuses. Learn from the past. Don't cover the truth to a healthier world. A simple healthier global progression is possible, but not without the continuing of questions or to adhering to proven factually evidence. Vote with the freedom of feet and the inquisitively of mind to a healthier world. Simple stuff.
Sorta sounds like a bunch of platitudes, Rob. What does it actually mean?
Even though I wasn't referring to kids, AndyM is on the mark that they're bombarded from all directions with the woes of the world. That needs to be taken into account when assessing declining mental health rates.
FWIW I shielded my kids from as much climate change stuff as was possible. Still do for the younger ones. Don't take them to marches, don't make them do school presentations on it, don't speak about it at the dinner table, turn off the radio when it's on etc etc. Try and do the same for the other issues Andy listed.
Their time to engage will come, let 'em play.
Another thought with a bit of cross-thread borrowing which is relevant here.
Blowin says, politically, that we're all rooted and it's impossible for a current version of democracy to make useful decisions with regards to AGW or otherwise.
At the same time, old mate Indo figures we're all too dumb to be entrusted with important political decisions.
Notwithstanding that Australian politics is heavily compromised, I think we're already heading in a positive direction.
The electorate are aware of the problems facing it, and can see that the two majors either aren't up to the challenge or aren't adequately representing its constituents. This is evidenced by a continued slide in support for LibLab and a significant swing towards independents in the last election.
Point being, people are indeed voting with their feet and, despite our two-party system I do have hopes for policy moving in a positive direction, socially, environmentally and economically.
It'll be a long road with plenty of miss-steps but I thing we'll get there eventually.
The only question is, what will it look like by the time the ship has changed course, especially with regard to the state of both the environment and wealth inequality.
stunet wrote:Sorta sounds like a bunch of platitudes, Rob. What does it actually mean?
Even though I wasn't referring to kids, AndyM is on the mark that they're bombarded from all directions with the woes of the world. That needs to be taken into account when assessing declining mental health rates.
FWIW I shielded my kids from as much climate change stuff as was possible. Still do for the younger ones. Don't take them to marches, don't make them do school presentations on it, don't speak about it at the dinner table, turn off the radio when it's on etc etc. Try and do the same for the other issues Andy listed.
Their time to engage will come, let 'em play.
good for you!
kids as accesories at climate change marches are the ickyest thing ever...
aside from the facebook photos showing them off
I had to read what platitudes mean as i wasn't sure.
Meaning of platitude in English
platitude
noun [ C ] disapproving
UK /ˈplæt.ɪ.tjuːd/ US /ˈplæt̬.ə.tuːd/
a remark or statement that may be true but is boring and has no meaning because it has been said so many times before:
He doesn't mouth platitudes about it not mattering who scores as long as the team wins.
I have been platituding in some regards my whole life. Although I try where I can. At this stage of the game it beats lying cheating and stealing. I will let the youth of today do it their way. Hopefully their positivity is shaken, stirred or awakened to the belief of positive thought and action to global change. Maybe I'm a dreamer but I still believe in a better world. The time is now and as ever action counts. Be it I'm platituding or not. Youth of today will or will not stand up wether they are called or pushed.
I want to see them rise above, and evolve to a better world because they are the future of man. For all the shitty deals and misconceptions that bring us to points of change like these, someones or somethings had to suffer. Either by free choice or forced choice. Man is his own god to some extent. If I give up the belief of positive change what have I got to be proud of or inspired by? Fuck all, my generation or the next, and the one after that. I can't do that despite some of the facts, we still fight.
"The long game is, as I think Bonza is alluding to, that it's likely living standards will drop everywhere unless collective action is taken. Also, even if AGM isn't real, energy independence will lead to a much more stable world - a boon for small to middle powers. In the last few years there have been huge gains in the renewable sector, and they will only increase exponentially."
if only the machine could sell it that way...
without all the hyperbole, us and them bullshit, false blame, fear mongering, and uncertain certainty...
and the latest abomination in own goals... linking it to 'white supremacy'!
the cultism and cluelessness really is astounding
Fuck, I keep saying AGM and not AGW.
I've never sat in on an AGM in my life.
And sorry Rob, didn't mean it was boring, just that they were obviously meaningful statements but I couldn't understand the impetus behind them. Cheers.
I'm sure we all knew what you meant Stu :)
Some sort of lysdexia kicking in.
Change of ideas? From the top down has always been a too much to ask. Some people stop asking because it's easier. But if more people ask for a change be it positive it is more likely to be delivered or at least encouraged.
There's a book called "freakanomics" by Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt, very interesting chapter on Climate Change in there, might surprise some people, written by some of the sharpest minds on the planet.
stunet wrote:Fuck, I keep saying AGM and not AGW.
I've never sat in on an AGM in my life.
And sorry Rob, didn't mean it was boring, just that they were obviously meaningful statements but I couldn't understand the impetus behind them. Cheers.
I'm dyslexic as a gorilla on a wild rant at times.
I should have just written I applaud those that take a stand for the betterment of modern man through science or whatever avenue they choose fit. Despite the opposition to facts on and from the ground.
.
gsco wrote:Anyone who advocates for climate change by deflecting responsibility to governments and corporations to do something, and is not making systematic changes to their lives right here and now, or is not spending ever waking moment trying to find that miracle, is living a lie and is not worth taking seriously. But this seems to be 99 out of 100 people.
I think saying " is not spending ever waking moment trying to find that miracle" is going too far, i think those people just need to show they are making a real effort in all areas of their life to reduce their carbon foot print, which is not just going out and putting roof top solar on or buying an EV both of which is not a sacrifice at all, most sensible people want those things because it reduces your energy and fuel bills which is most peoples motivation, reducing carbon emissions is more just the feel good bonus.
But i otherwise 100% agree and was surprised with Stunets reply, especially the right wing thing, to me it's basically about taking self responsibly and acting locally thinking globally and understanding how small change on mass can bring big change.
But yeah most people seem to just expect some magical solutions from government or big business without doing much themselves, which is crazy, im not saying both dont have degree of responsibility but its the individual that creates demand or creates changes in demand.
Take surfboards for example id expect 9 out of 10 boards sold are still PU/PE super toxic high carbon producing petroleum based products, only reason why they are still the bigger seller is because demand hasn't changed, there is already alternatives out there but most surfers believe PU/PE is best so aren't willing to make a change, while if 9 out of 10 surfers decided they will make a sacrifice on performance and go for the alternative product, demand would dictate that board builders would all move to a greener product.
Or you could expect the government to force board builders to change, or expect board builders to be the one that changes, but to me that's silly to expect, i expect as most surfers claim to be green for them to bring change.
Classic victim blaming from both indo and gsco.
Governments have a duty to protect its citizens. You wouldn't ask your neighbour to harden up and sort it out themselves if they just had their house robbed and livelihoods destroyed. Individual and collective consumer power can be strong but its insignificant when you compare the power our big corporations hold. Only governments can keep that power in check.
The fossil fuel industry is lead by a handful of oil and gas companies that overwhelming contribute to global emissions and in turn reap in that profit.
But in your view its the ‘individual’ who needs to act. Go figure. you think recycling tin cans is gunna change the world?. have you seen the cost of fresh vegetables and fruit vs dominos pizza? ever heard of cash flow?
And while we’re at it show me a landlord who has provided solar panels on their investment property so that rental scum can reduce their bills and I’ll show you a liar. Think about it.
Ha ha victim blaming seriously?
FFS this is the type of mindset we are dealing with, completely delusional with zero self responsibility.
Tell me how I’m wrong. There are consequences from climate change yes? People who don’t have the means to engage in effective change? Been noticing what’s going on around the world? See who is being impacted? Are these not victims of industrial scale emissions? Is it their fault?
So yeah mate you are blaming the victim.
That's crazy logic you and me and others are not victims, because we get something we demand.
Problem these days is everybody wants to be a victim nobody wants to take any responsibility for anything, i guess the growing popularity of victimhood also has to do with there being a kind of power in being a victim.
indo-dreaming wrote:That's crazy logic you and me and others are not victims, because we get something we demand.
Problem these days is everybody wants to be a victim nobody wants to take any responsibility for anything, i guess the growing popularity of victimhood also has to do with there being a kind of power in being a victim.
I wasn‘r talking about you and me indo. Go back to my post and explain to me how I’m wrong. I wasn’t shirking individual responsibility. I was pointing out its insignificance compared to corporate power. Think about when I say victims what I mean.
Being a victim is the underlying psychology of the woke movement.
If you are not a victim then you are in fact the oppressor.
Personal responsibility is now antisocial selfishness and people practicing it are not permitted to participate in society.
Or you could just stop with the woke bullshit and explain to me how I’m wrong.
You're not wrong. It's a combination of individual personal responsibility and lifestyle change, government regulation and incentives, corporate responsibility and genuine change, drawing on existing technologies, a technological miracle...all of the above.
Yes but there is a ratio of responsibility isn’t there gsco. And where does the majority of that lay? Are you saying it’s equal?
I wouldn’t know.
But yet you seem to disproportionally blame the individual. Individuals, for example who happen to live in China who you champion and who will disproportionately suffer the consequences of climate change compared to richer western nation individuals like indo or me. Yet when I call it as it is - victim blaming. Your default position is to call it woke.
Yup, cop out.
No entirely sure if I follow your point.
Burning of fossil fuels started at scale in the industrial revolution so the problem is predominately caused by us developed countries during our phase of industrial and economic etc development and expansion, and then maintenance of our lifestyles.
Climate change is projected to impact on all humanity, but will affect developing nations in an additional unique and disproportionate way in that it would be catastrophic for them to also develop industrially and economically etc to the same level as us given the current level of human technologies. Lucky for us we've already developed.
Even if these countries didn't develop any further the current situation is still not sustainable without changes in our developed nation lifestyles and/or technologies which as yet don't exist.
Changes in our lifestyles can be due to our own personal responsibility in our own lifestyle choices, particularly our consumption patterns, and/or due to being forced to by governments. There is a role for both but I don't know the proportions.
But the idea that we can just keep living the lifestyles we desire without taking personal responsibility for making changes and instead wait for governments to enforce changes and/or hope technology will save us is an argument for non-action and a victim mentality - that we are just powerless victims of corporations and governments.
I'm surprised Stu voiced this opinion of taking little to no personal responsibility and hoping for a technological saviour. I actually thought it was very socially unacceptable position to take in this day and age.
Tell me how any of that is wrong?
You’re arguing with your self mate and completely missing the point of my response. The argument being your posted re responsibility and proportion of action. If you can’t follow what ive said thenI’ve obviously failed at pointing it out. All the best gsco
all this talk of responsibility...
and hopelessness
who is responsible for such exorbitant lpg prices, poor people can no longer use it to cook?
and are forced to "...burn wood like the dark ages"
even in germany people are stocking up on trailer loads of firewood at high prices
people are soon going to be chopping down trees left, right, and centre...
which is an environmental disaster in itself
but, ...electric cars and stuff...
californians will be driving around all guilt free and high and mighty and stuff - if the weather isn't too hot and they can charge their cars...
one step forward three steps back
it seems the big wigs haven't really thought this through
does climate change even exist in russia?
do they care? ...or do they celebrate a balmy siberian spring?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/tribune.com.pk/story/2335684/karachi-looks-...
ok so I think I finally get it.
People identify with being climate change "advocates", and sit around in happy little woke social groups sipping lattes feeling all socially accepted, warm and fuzzy and good about themselves, siding with each other for being so woke, politically correct and socially with the times.
And they like to gang up on and belt with a stick people who have a critical mind and question the "science", and exclude those people from their happy little woke social circles.
But people see themselves in fact as powerless victims of climate change and on the "receiving end" of it, instead of realising that it is in fact their (our) modern lifestyles and living standards that we so highly value, and our high levels of economic development and consumption choices etc, that are the causes of it.
Instead people hold on to the idea that the "real" causes of climate change are in fact evil governments, corporate greed and the neoliberal capitalist system, without realising that this neoliberal capitalist system serves only one purpose and profits in only one way: from us buying and consuming what it produces and provides. So instead of putting the guilt trip on other people and each other, they're just putting it on governments, corporations and the "system".
So climate change advocacy is really just a woke fashion statement, something woke to identify with, a way to make friends and fit in, and an outlet for emotional venting of one's hate towards the world and the "system".
gsco wrote:ok so I think I finally get it.
People identify with being climate change "advocates", and sit around in happy little woke social groups sipping lattes feeling all socially accepted, warm and fuzzy and good about themselves, siding with each other for being so woke, politically correct and socially with the times.
And they like to gang up on and belt with a stick people who have a critical mind and question the "science", and exclude those people from their happy little woke social circles.
But people see themselves in fact as powerless victims of climate change and on the "receiving end" of it, instead of realising that it is in fact their (our) modern lifestyles and living standards that we so highly value, and our high levels of economic development and consumption choices etc, that are the causes of it.
Instead people hold on to the idea that the "real" causes of climate change are in fact evil governments, corporate greed and the neoliberal capitalist system, without realising that this neoliberal capitalist system serves only one purpose and profits in only one way: from us buying and consuming what it produces and provides. So instead of putting the guilt trip on other people and each other, they're just putting it on governments, corporations and the "system".
So climate change advocacy is really just a woke fashion statement, something woke to identify with, a way to make friends and fit in, and an outlet for emotional venting of one's hate towards the world and the "system".
Carrying on like a wanker now.
Climate change advocacy and action is awareness of ones or another's environments and what can be done to prevent or limit further irreversible effects of global damage
I look at it as maintaining or improving the global garden for future health
I don't see it as woke or a fashion statement just a local and global scientificly studied area of expertise that could be learnt from and applied positivitly to improving the global garden for overall sustainability of the qualities of life we take for granted
The really odd thing about the right’s (in some quarters) resistance to effective action on man made climate change is by definition true conservatism would dictate recognition and remedial action. Which leads to what’s really going on ie reactionary politics (as defined not Shep’s recent brain fart).
.