All Things Religion Thread

Optimist, Arcturus does not have a planetary system.

Billy Graham's Resurrection.
Billy was a Bully...used to wait for Horses & Cars to pass & scream Tarzan calls.
Also a first rate upper class brat that kept hitting on chix & molesting them.
Was a poster boy brat that pioneered, school massacres, drink driving & orgies.
Disrupting others from learning & never learnt a thing.

After not doing his Homework, the Teacher said 'you'll never amount to anything'
Grade 8 Billy & classmate Winston hatched a diabolical revenge plot .
To seek revenge they would burn down the school...with kids inside...all legit!
Devilish Billy ensured all School children were locked in before starting his blaze.

The principal handed down severe punishment by taking rich brat home to Dad.
Soon on, his Dad repeatedly pours Beer down his son's throat to make him sick.
Sick enough to be the only yuppie kid to drive Mum's plush car to School.

Billy could now pick up chix & trap them in his Shagg'n Wagon.
Yes! The chix reckon he'd creep them out with his smoochin'
Billy swears his orgies were decent molestation, the loving groping type orgies..
Never hit on any slags or moles...well not in Mom's car.
Billy only ever loved Pretty Girls, Pretty Clothes & Pretty Cars...
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/11/23/Evangelist-Billy-Graham-attended...

Working for his dad as none else in town would let Billy near their daughters.
Dad got sick of him & sent him to Bible College.

Biblebasher Bob: 'Billy, loudmouth yer way to the top or you're gonna end up poor.'
They banished the Town's loudest man to an Island to hone his Tarzan Screaming.

Billy was Likely tingled by Lightning on 18th Green of the Temple Terrace Golf Club.
Well! Florida Golf Lightning incidents were common back then...Epiphany for some.

Billy returned to Bible School to be awarded a degree..(Economics?)
Cause no sooner did he leave, the school's teachers fled & enrollment dropped 10%
Billy hadn't lost the knack for evacuating schools...(Wins more Medals!) No Joke!
Billy again crashed the Bible Uni where staff had to lock up the cowering students.

Devil's own monster sized brat grew too big & needed a world audience to prank.

1959 Billy ditched his Wife & Kids for Oz holiday (crusade)
The Gospel Oz Tour saw one third of Oz attend & 50% view/listen on air.

Joh censored our school books, TV, Movies ..instead running cable Billy Graham.
Our childhood was Sunday School followed by Billy or religion on every channel.
Gathered up like a flock then strapped in front of world's scariest Man yelling at us.
We had to wait for the Postal Address so we could feed him our pocket money.
Yes! All the dinky envelopes were laid out & a pat on the head for bigger donation.
Armourguard Vans racing to Billy's Airports & Docks...off to a good cause.

All us kidz knew was that Billy's good cause never involved any poor people.
Should we tell our parents , Aunts & Grandparents ? Never dare let them know!
As long as you had money to give ...Billy (God) will always love you!
Billy's grandson GRACE handles the victims now.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xwwd3w/billy-grahams-grandson-says-pr...

As history records... Billy's game was thwarted by Rock Star Famine Appeals.
Devilish rock music preachers ended up feeding the poor...(Kinda!)
God was not impressed by the heathens bleeding hearts.
Anyhow as you'd expect everything was renamed after Billy the Telemarketer.

"Sons" not a planetary system but accompanying Dwarf stars...Part of a "Stream"

"Any of you guys take an interest in the book of revelation, or have a depth of knowledge on it
Anything in there that could be linked to this situation...it's feeling more and more like a major event in history to me"
Take an interest, yes... have a depth of knowledge, well, big-picture stuff only. It's a notoriously hard book to interpret, seemingly intentionally so.

Any attempt to press it for details on the when the world will end are likely to be futile, according to the book itself and other books & letters that provide context for it. A few relevant cross references:
"For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." (1 Thess 5:2)
"“Now concerning that day and hour no one knows — neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son — except the Father only. As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark. They didn’t know until the flood came and swept them all away. So this is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be: Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one left. Therefore be alert, since you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. But know this: If the homeowner had known what time the thief was coming, he would have stayed alert and not let his house be broken into. This is why you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." (Matt. 24:36-44)
"(“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)" (Rev 16:15).
The gist being that the end of the world will come unexpectedly.

As for big-picture stuff, Revelation (as well as other parts of the new and old testaments that deal with eschatology) does say to expect wars, diseases, famines etc in "the end times"; but "the end times" can be pretty loosely defined as the period of time between Christ's ressurection and his return. So you're not likely to get much value there as far as making any solid predictions goes.

"Pops, a ride into the depths of the discussion about determinism."

Interesting article Cromwell! That's a take on number-antirealism that I hadn't come across before.
A couple of thoughts:
- General Relativity doesn't actually predict a Minkowski spacetime (which entails B Theory of time); that's just one interpretive framework, the one favoured by Einstein by all accounts. There are also A-Theory-of-time-compatible interpretations.
- Just because deterministic predictions cannot be made on the intuitionist view, doesn't seem to infer that determinism couldn't be real but unpredicable?
- The idea that numbers cannot have infinite digits (essentially that irrational numbers cannot be real) due to the universe not having sufficient information-carrying capacity only holds under presupposition of naturalism and (mathematical object/number)-antirealism. On a realist/Platonic view (i.e. that abstract objects actually really exist in some Platonic realm), or on a Deist or Theist view (that objects such as numbers really exist in the mind of the infinite God), there's no such issue.

Thanks Snuffy. That was good.

Oz Easter Wrap
3 March PM admits to inviting Hillsong #1 Pedo bagman to Presidential Dinner.
13 March PM announces tuff 500 ban that starts when Hillsong says so.
14 March Hillsong Colour Conference infects 3000 Covid-19 spreaders
15 March PM : We're all infected now....so you can start yer silly ban thingy.
Go forth Hillsong & spread God's Coronavirus across the Planet
19 March - PM's Hillsong Defence MP releases Ruby Princess Hillsong Virus.
Ruby Princess releases Viral Hillsong terrorist families to Wipeout Oz soon World.
http://cityhubsydney.com.au/2020/04/hillsong-link-to-ruby-princess-claimed/
PM's smooching partner Olive Oil is tight lipped about it.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/10933588-3x2-700x467.jpg
22 March PM gives his kids a sick notes. No more School
https://themorningsquire.com.au/morrisons-children-not-going-to-school-b...

2 April - PM cops backlash for elevating Church to being #1 Essential workers.
https://10daily.com.au/news/australia/a200403zfltd/churches-to-be-consid...

7 April Cardinal Pell is resurrected for Easter (That was icky!)

8 April-Our Personal Govt/Council Mail is contaminated by Christian Covid -19
PM gives Christians God Like Powers to spread essential Coronavirus mail outs.

12 Easter Sunday Hillsong Blue-sky Essential Grafitti Blitz. (Coronavirus Clouds)
Oz wide GOD graffiti is now just $6,000 a hit pollution, either [NO] or + or this ...
https://www.reddit.com/r/brisbane/comments/fzr2bs/seeing_this_right_now_...
Hillsong cross border bombers rain down more Hillsong Essential Virus .
Gold Coast Airstrip crosses State Border...Hillsong wheeled over border for Graffiti.
PM gave hillsong Emergency Powers, then ordered God's covid-19 crop dusters.
Evil rules you fuckin' pissweak non believing do gooders..."Happy Easter God PM."

14 April Cardinal Pell is under investigation for more Gay Sex Abuse of a child.
There's no beating round the bush here & all have lost count with this pervert.
Go back to Hillsong above...same story all excused by all Lib PMs.
16 April - PM My kids won't be going to no sissy day care school...
Note: PM has been lying to OZ for 25 days about NOT sending his kidz to school.
Christian PM exploits his daughters day after day, scarring them for life!
PM lies to Home Schooling assessment! Sorry PM bad example to Kids! Back2School.
https://www.kidspot.com.au/news/pm-says-he-wont-send-his-kids-to-school-...

Oz Christian Leader's corruption, evil doings & acts of Mass Terror are exhausting!
Govt ordering Christians to spread virus over borders by Air, Land,Sea & Letterbox.
Christians are confusing the PM's devilish plot as God's Will...Repent Now Sinners!

Our Most corrupt ever PM's approval rating has soared from 41% > 59%
tbb invites Christians to swear on the Bible if they want OZ PM is on their side.

I won't say you're friend's definitely wrong, but scepticism would be warranted.,,

On healings, there's been a long history of phonies using that guise to sucker in the gullible and turn a profit. Doesn't mean that faith healing is impossible - on my own worldview there is no reason to discount the miraculous* and I know quite a few people who are otherwise pretty boring, soberminded types who claim to have either witnessed or experienced faith healings. But again, it'd seem fair to be sceptical of any such claims until you've got pretty good evidence they're true.

*(it would seem, from scripture anyway, that if miracles occur they tend to do so to bring attention to and lend authority to some particular teaching. This has been used as an explanation as to why miracles in general are rarely if ever seen in the western world; Christianity is already established, the teaching is not new to us, unlike in ancient Rome or in modern times in places outside the christian sphere, where the proverbial big flashing neon light might be needed to make any inroads. Make of that what you will).

Thanks Balance, it's mostly false prophets in Power that upset us non believers.
Correct that! All crooks in power upset equally...case in point...

tbb was suss to some WA Artania Passenger list fuss, both arriving & departing.
Can't say who, but was annoyed that media were not onto it & said so!
https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2020/03/25/the-quarantin...
Turns out Govt squirrelled out 4-5 VIP's from WA Quarantine.
Some were even put back in...to hide the fact...smooth criminals.
All without asking Doctor in charge...soon sacked for speaking out...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8234057/WA-doctor-says-shes-sad...

tbb pointed out 7 unlisted Planes headed out from Melbourne Airport to China!
All at identical Depart Time...1hr to go...all were wiped ( Tip off > Left Early? )
Quite obviously a ship pulled in dropped off crew & all took off.
Same trick as later... with WA 3 planes for Artania (No quarantine) Just do it!
WA failed Public/Private launch that spread virus over 5 hospitals instead of one.

Oz govt > Cruises/Airports/Hi-Rises/Hospitals/Holiday Home breaches> Outbreaks!
All VIP breaches by non approved means...against Border Force directives.
We're talking about 1,000's that dodged Quarantine & 100's more breaching it!
We now hear that Govt waved off all / most of ships with Covid-19 patients.
So these Oz patients are now passengers that go on infecting o/s.

Let's see how long the media takes to expose Govt VIP Covid 19 Club.
Hillsong Cruise inquiry is run by Pell's QC...so that's all smooth sailing there?

You see what tbb is saying...Highest level Christian corruption goes on & on...
Starting to think I'm selfish in not thinking of the damage our PM does to religion.
That's a double dose of ill will upon religion...just how much must they suffer.
With that double dose of evil in mind...tbb sends peace & love to Christians.

Jesus just had a patch of grass and the words and power of God. People were healed, people were saved and strengthened and loved.
By the seaside, He would use a boat near the crowded shore to teach from. He didn't ask for anything, He didn't own anything, He simply gave everything. There is your reference point to work off. Even good men these days can get wrapped up in the illusion of material success, but simplicity and humility are the traits that God respects most. I found a great deal of comfort when I learnt from the new testament that I didn't have to have worldly success, didn't have to be important , didn't have to be rich and while many have looked down on me over the years for my outlook on life, my wife and I enjoy a freedom and simplicity of work / beach culture living that many people envy.

“By the seaside, He would use a boat near the crowded shore to teach from. “

Sure you haven’t just been watching Ozark?

Yes of course...
‘He’ did this... ‘He’ did that...
Even good men these days can get wrapped up in the illusion that a book with fabulous stories from thousands of years ago is the benchmark to living ;)
It’s just your version of things adapted from someone else’s version of things...
Really.
.... Simplicity ?! Yes that’s why u are up at 3am sprouting your religious interpretations like u have a divine insight that transforms into an ‘outlook‘ on life that people supposedly envy? Not a lot of humility there optimist ;) pretty presumptuous actually! Your ‘outlook’ may work... good stuff and all... and ‘a freedom and simplicity of work/beach culture living’ , well that sounds great! Consider maybe your supposed freedom, your simplicity, your humility and your ‘outlook’ are your own inventions - and consider that just coz u have gained your own understanding of life through a book, well, nobody else requires you to point that out or asked u to do so. Really. If it works, it’ll work ;) It’s not the ‘contentment’ of your imaginary simplicity that drives you to sprout God, nor the influence or impact of ‘His’ teachings... that is the reason you need to attempt to school others on stuff u know nothing of. Like Jesus and the boat etc. There is absolutely no truth to anything YOU convey about what Jesus supposedly did or didn’t do and trying to be an expert on the specifics of how Jesus did or didn’t deliver his message whether by boat or land or up in a cloud is simply u making shit up. Understand the simplicity there! ;)

"nobody else requires you to point that out or asked u to do so"
Jelly, go back and read the title of this thread and the opening post.

Do you have anything to add, or are you simply content in attacking someone else's views? A reasoned criticism of what Optimist has claimed would be fine.

Yes pops, or should I say ok boomer ;)
It states clearly: ‘you can post anything you like about your beliefs... and no one has to read it unless they want!’
First up, there is no attack on optimist.
I stated some things and encouraged him to consider a few things...
If my directness causes you to take offence... well, grab the gate too ;)
The difference between what I added, as I did add something pops, is that it is not based on beliefs. So apologies there ol chump... but hey, heed your own advice and head back up the top of the page yaself...
‘no one has to read it unless they want’
I’m guessing u wanted to...
I’m guessing u don’t believe it...
Maybe u can’t believe what is true and that’s the whole point in this religion quagmire ;)
Considerations...
Or just something to consider ;)

Far out, that's heavy Balance.
Are you OK?
I'll keep her and yourself in my prayers - for healing and good medical care, and that you both might know God and have eternal life.

___________________________________________________________
"So to me they give a shit...even about us fleas here on swellnet."
Got it in one; though I wouldn't call anyone a flea. If you were convinced as I am that what I believe is true, how much would you have to hate someone to not share that!

G'day Jelly,
" ok boomer ;)"
I'm 28!

Edit:
"Maybe u can’t believe what is true"
Maybe so, though I'm convinced that what I believe is true. Go back a page or two and read through some of my back-and-forth with FR and Cromwell, it'll help you understand where I stand.

What's your standpoint?

And FWIW, Optimist isn't just making stuff up when he said Jesus taught from a boat near the crowded seashore.
The book of Mark, chapter 4 starts:
"Again He began to teach by the sea, and a very large crowd gathered around Him. So He got into a boat on the sea and sat down, while the whole crowd was on the shore facing the sea. He taught them many things in parables..."
The "sea" here would be the sea of Gallilee.

And balance...
My heartfelt sympathies, for real.
My sister in law (pretty much my sister) passed away on Easter w/end. Suddenly. 41 yrs old. Four kids, husband watched her die on the floor at home. No bullshit.
She was Christian, the morning of the day she died she even made a Christian vid about the story of Saul/Paul... she loved Jesus and I reckon she’s up there with him...
She also fervently debated with me, we had amazing and enlightening discussions on our shared experiences of ‘god’. We also respected the fact that there is no harm in questioning...
Everything.
The most important part in all this is the freedom to express yourself and I hold no grudge, offence or animosity to anyone or their beliefs. My best mates are Muslim. I personally don’t have any specific religious allegiance... and this is my point.
‘Your’ god and ‘your’ relationship with ‘god’ is yours. I encourage optimist and pops and whoever to share all their stuff, go for it! If I was rude in my delivery I do apologise for ruffling feathers and I appreciate u starting the thread balance. Talking from direct experience, I’ve watched a mate die from leukaemia as a teenager, washed and helped my elderly neighbour as he succumbed to a brain tumour and died a horrible death... I’m no expert, your faith is your faith, try separate the fantasy from what is real tho. The stories, the analogies, and the thought processes that supposedly allow the ‘Christian’ version are steeped in fantasy and speculation. But if u need it go for it....
....considerations

Yes u are 28.
Boomer brain in a lil boys body...
Quote all u want ;) ;)
Just coz u read it in a book don’t mean shit... it’s not about right or wrong...
May have wobbled ya boat there ;);)
Quick! Find a bible passsge to try make sense of things ;) ;)
Illusions.
Carry on...

I'm not inclined to prayer Balance but I really do hope that your mother comes through this OK.

And whatever sea it was on and whatever else supposedly happened is...
Basically u trying to explain what occurred thousands of years ago from a book some dudes wrote who u never knew and actually have no first hand account of!....
Wow, you are either a time traveller, an amazing reader who can actually verify something and claim its then true or maybe, maybe, u just makin shit up ;);$

No worries Jelly, it can be really hard to judge tone etc on a text based forum. Genuinely thought you were just trolling, so sorry for that. And thanks for sharing.

Really sorry to hear about your sister. Hope you and your family are OK, hope you can find comfort in what she knew about life beyond death.

Appreciate that pop.
And appreciate the robust dialogue...
All the best to everyone ;)

Gday Balance, Just saw your post. Ive been out fishing all day to get some fresh food.
Regarding your Mother, I will pray for her after this message. I was diagnosed with lung cancer years ago. My legacy from ciggies and mull when young plus building dust from trade work. The size of a cricket ball in my right lung. I couldn't breathe properly when it was pumping. Struggled when cold weather, I had no idea until I got the news. I was shattered as was my lovely wife. I took it to my God. I fasted and prayed about it and one night He told me I had to forgive everyone who had wronged me which was quite a few. I never thought I still held a grudge about those things until he showed me that I still hated some peoples guts deep deep down. This is not allowed for a Christian. He said if I can forgive you then you must forgive them. I conceded and did so .This is very important. Forgiveness and healing are locked together. I was completely healed and amazed the oncologist and doctor.
I will pray for your mum, but talk to her about making sure she has a clean slate with everyone. Then with Jesus as saviour, even if you die you win, but healing is a nice feeling that's for sure. Jelly can learn from this too.

Thank you optimist, I’m always willing to learn... ‘Forgiveness and healing are locked together’ - very true and well said right there ;)
In the past two years I’ve had two close friends recover from terminal cancer - one from stage 4 bowel cancer and the other from lymphoma... both required extensive treatment of chemotherapy and radiation as well as multiple surgeries. And both also explored alternate remedies which involved spiritual practices...
I’m curious... it’s a lovely story u have relayed - just concerning the nitty gritty if u don’t mind me asking - did u require any conventional medical treatment at all and was the tumour surgically removed or did you simply pray and then did the tumour ‘disappear’?

I was completely healed without any surgery or radiation. After having my scans etc, I went to my GP who started crying when he saw me. I thought "this is not good". After getting the news and a big cry session with my wife, I was booked in to St Vincent's private hospital in Lismore for 2 weeks later even though I was a public patient. It was during these 2 weeks that I sorted myself with God ( as per last post) and was healed. Went to oncology in Lismore and scanned again. The guys compared the two scans and couldn't believe their eyes. All I had was some minor 5mm wide scarring where the massive growth was. They wanted to test that anyway so into the machine I went and an x-ray guided needle went in through my back. They got their sample but punctured my lung. Cheers for that fellas. Laid on a bed for a while coughing up blood until it sealed up then off home. All good, no probs since and that was 10 years ago. But only a couple of years ago, my new best friend who was the best human being I had ever met, and the most fun to hang with, died of an undiagnosed melanoma. I know we all die, but that one hurt, such a great bloke. In his passing breath he said "Its all about Jesus" so I'm sure I will see him again, after all, this period in life is just the apprenticeship.

Hi Optimist , been watching your posts for quite awhile , you are an inspiration to "the born again believers," and believe you have shown respect ,and in turn , a lot have posters have reciprocated!
I recently watched, "The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel" which I think is one of the best education tools on whether Jesus lived and what proof is there that he was the Son of God , which is based on the resurrection of Christ after he was tortured and killed on the cross.
I have few friends and family where I put the challenge to them , to please watch The Case For Christ , to at least understand the facts that we have today on the Life of Jesus........
I think that if everybody here took the Challenge to watch and learn, there would be a different narrative here?

Wow - sounds like a very Zen moment Optimist

Optimist...
Ok. After you got your ‘scans etc’, what was the confirmed diagnosis once the biopsy was performed? A sample of your affected lung tissue has to have been removed to determine which specific type of lung cancer was actually present... Apart from imaging, there would have been extensive laboratory testing performed to further determine malignancy, what stage the cancer is in, whether it has spread to any other organs or if any disease is present also in the lymph nodes. This information is essential regarding treatment (ie small cell or non small cell carcinoma, mesothelioma etc) and each particular type requires a particular treatment.
Now, I don’t wish to jump to any conclusions, but I’m guessing you still have those scans? (It’s kind of like when you provide a bible verse to explain something - u know, the ‘evidence’ that gives definition or validation if u like).
My mate’s missus who has survived bowel cancer is now pregnant... the ultrasound imaging of their baby has pride of place beside her before and after cancer scans ;) They are clearly dated etc and they are nice reminders in a way - something I wouldn’t imagine you’d discard flippantly either... so feel free to share your remarkable evidence ;)
You see optimist, I am quite familiar with the processes involved, I’m lucky to be able to have gained further insight... Other than witnessing first hand the devastating decline in his wife’s health all the way through to her complete recovery, my mate provided me with regular doctor reports and imaging of the entire journey. The information, to me, may as well have been in a foreign language... However, my wife is a doctor, my aunty has been head of an oncology department for over a decade and my uncle has 40+ yrs as an ear, nose and throat surgeon (he also has extensive respiratory illness experience in regards to lung disease). I didn’t really pay too much attention to their chosen fields until encountering my good friends situation. My wife’s colleagues who generously provided further input and medical expertise consisted of a surgeon, anesthetist and 3GPs... So, as u can imagine I quickly developed an understanding of the situation that may not have been possible otherwise... Anyway, I shared your story with my wife and two of her colleagues and even with their wealth of experience they have never encountered anything as you described over the course of their careers... These are professional, practical and also spiritual people by the way. Our surgeon mate is possibly the biggest Christian warrior princess I’ve encountered yet! - other than u maybe ;)
He said : ‘well, people tend to believe what they want to. Thats it!’...

So, if u don’t mind optimist... Feel free to fill in the gaps regarding specific diagnosis all the way to recovery, u can easily black out your name etc but the doctor reports and scans with all the imaging and dates etc will clearly show everything to back up your story... The clearest thing which needs to be established is the actual ‘news’ u were given in terms of your illness being terminal or life threatening etc and the ‘news’ you also received after tumour was gone - only excision and analysis of the diseased tissue can determine this.
Now my wife is a practical and soft but hard working woman - I won’t repeat what she said to say to you coz I’m giving u the benefit of the doubt ;)

I only hope your story is real in its entirety... There is a strangely vague undertone to a fair bit of it - almost like you are presenting or ‘directing’ a particular version that sounds pretty. Throw in divine intervention and it starts getting interesting yes. Kind of like a bible story...
Anything involving fantastical powers and healing energies and miraculous recoveries - they captivate us. Trust me, I have extensive experience and training as a practitioner and teacher of internal healing arts.
The thing is... people often ‘think’ something occurred or is occurring. They think it, they believe it, and it becomes real... it is a powerful process. Nevertheless... fasting and having smoked mull (as u stated u did when u were young) well, just these two activities alone induce varied changes including euphoria and perceived clarity. It can go the other way as well...
Your imagination paints a nice picture, probly why u call ya self optimist ;)
Hoping you stay healthy ;)

I’m just heading off to get the popcorn :-0

*and when some people die they do say things... albeit softly (if they still have the capacity to speak)
- in India some might say ‘it’s all about Krishna or namaste’... or ‘my cow is sacred!’
- in China some might go ‘ahhhh its all about Buddha’... or ‘CCP forever ;)’...
- in Iran they be ‘it’s all about Mohamed or allah’...

Or some just say nothing at all ;)
Each to their own ay ;);)

;)

Brutus, good recommendation r.e. Strobel. There's a book as well as the movie. I read it as a pretty immature 15 year old, long before I became christian, and even then it was pretty thought-provoking.

Jelly, I take it from your posts that you're a strict naturalist/materialist?
For my own curiosity, what arguments or evidence would do you think it would take to convince you to change your standpoint?

Pops I’m neither.
I have no standpoint...
I remain open to all possibilities...
entertain fantasy if you wish - just don’t believe it...
Arguments nor evidence mean nothing.
Beliefs are not true.
I’m interested in what ‘is’...
What you are ‘convinced’ of is not this ;)
And your question is to yourself ;)

Ooookay, seems we have an issue with semantics.
What do you understand the word "belief" to mean?

What would it take for me to change my standpoint? A collapse of all the arguments that I find convincing for the existence of God, an alternative explanation/hypothesis for all the events surrounding the historical figure of Jesus of such power that it overrides the one I favour, and the collapse of the internal "witness" (sorry for the christianese there; I simply can't think of a good way of describing this, and the naturalist is likely to translate this as "delusion") within me that tells me that this is true.

In terms of claims about healing it is really important that these are not used to persuade people away from standard medical care. My wife is a breast cancer survivor and her experience demonstrated to me just how effective modern cancer treatments can be. Put your faith in god if you like but I seem to remember he works in mysterious ways and these days that would surely include modern medicine.

Cromwell, couldn't agree more strongly with that.

Standard medical care and process is always the best way. But divine intervention is always welcome. My CT with that creepy dye showed the solid mass clearly and I'm sure I still have the X-rays somewhere around the place. The point is that my GP said definitely a growth. Booked into oncology for type of growth and treatment. Got to oncology and growth gone. Took sample of lung scar tissue and nothing to report but a harmless grey goo...all good. Take it how you like Jelly but that's what happened and your very welcome to not believe it. I'm just sharing personal experiences here and not trying to prove anything. I've got a heap of stories over my Christian walk of 40 years that make that one look lame. I don't know how God works, but it certainly is in mysterious ways.
PS Thanks Brutus, I'll have a look at that too, even though I'm way past needing any more evidence I love a good watch/read like that.
PPS, Just thinking about it more, I probably got it from my very first wage job as a kid of 14. My job was to sweep up all the asbestos fibro offcuts and dust from around the fibro cutting machines where my dad worked. Great friggin job eh... He died from asbestosis. He was a tough old bugger.

Optimist, good on you for sharing and opening yourself up to criticism like that.

Well put Cromwell regarding conventional treatment.
And pops...
Cmon mate, the word ‘belief’ and the understanding of it is irrelevant.
A belief is a belief.
Get it. It’s not real.

A belief is your own formulation according to what you favour and is simply used/created so things make sense to u - especially handy when tackling the god issue ;) It provides stimulus, it feeds and entertains and allows us to create. -This here is not an assumption or a conclusion by the way - just clarifying because your fixation on the language and words involved is causing some confusion. (Maybe like attempting to take the bible literally!)
In your instance this appears as being ‘convinced’... Have u noticed that u’ve touched on what you are ‘convinced of’ a couple of times now, as in there is a definite and obvious thirst / desire / attempt to be convinced of something and in relation to this discussion it’s Jesus/god etc. Maybe the need for u to convince yourself is no different from u trying to convince others? Why do u need convincing? It’s akin to optimist saying he only forgave others after god told him to do so!?!? I mean, really?... He did so as he must have been ‘convinced’!... not sure god is needed for that - that’s more the realm of basic self awareness, mutual respect and compassion. On the other hand, if god is ‘essential’ for u to ‘understand’ this then great, go for it ;) It is a tool.
When you are ‘convinced’ though, you may have bypassed understanding, and the only understanding required for u is then your conclusion...
I suspect you don’t understand that but pls show us otherwise if so ;)
;););)

A start.... Try stop thinking ;)
Feel what happens
What you are trying to express may be simply religious concepts within the framework of your imagination. It’s as possible as it isn’t - really! If you wish to take that as someone saying you are delusional - well, and even if it is the case, it’s also very likely you won’t even consider you may be deluded...
It is ok though, because Jesus will forgive u and u will all be together together again somewhere else for eternity... ;)
Optimist said:
‘After all, this period in life is just the apprenticeship’ - it’s bold statements like this that may be dangerous and wildly inaccurate.... simply personal assumption and a conclusion steeped in fantasy.
- Talk from direct experience ;)

Beliefs are fantasies
An explanation is not the truth
Interpret it how you will... or try look at it like this...
On the left is belief
In the middle is truth
On the right is no belief
Explore them all, investigate, train... pray... fast... meditate... do whatever works or do nothing at all ...
You might keep coming back to one if not all of them ;)

;););)
And optimist, that reply of yours clears a lot up.
Nice story though...
Perception vs reality ;);)
There will always be your version of events to contrast what actually occurred. If it works and you aren’t hurting anyone then keep pretending ;)

If you have convinced yourself that might be all you need ...
It’s not about believing or disbelieving, nor liking or disliking

All the best ;)

Come on Jelly, surely you must realise in any debate it's important to understand what the other person means by the words s/he uses. So no, the understanding of what belief means is not irrelevant.

"Beliefs are fantasies"
There you go, a definition!
That's where we are talking past {edit, typo corrected} each other. The way I understand the term, belief is conviction/knowledge based on evidence.

You can say that no belief is true, fine, but that leaves you unable to assent the truth of anything!

I'm actually really struggling to work out where you stand; other than an apparent distaste for religion.
Do you believe (in the sense I explain above) that objective reality is true? (i.e. that the external world is real and objective)?

Edit: and I think you've ignored the questions I posed to you r.e. what you "believe" - what you think is true - and what it would take for you to change your mind? Or am I just failing to properly comprehend what you're writing?

A belief can be a precursor to reality.

The power of belief is never to be underestimated. It can make just about anything possible.

Particularly within the person themselves, a deeply held belief can perform wonders that medical science cannot account for . Science can only describe reality , belief can alter reality.

Pops
Don’t struggle, fark mate
Turn the struggle into the blessing...
The ‘meaning’ is something u have applied...
I have no distaste for religion
Bullshit is bullshit
Truth is truth
No need to work it out...
Try that exercise I recommended ;)
‘He who hesitates is lost‘ ... I agree ;)

it can also lead to deep delusions and dislocation from reality.

;) ...and nice try blow in
You certainly keep on keeping on ;)
Science is science
Belief is belief
Reality Is Reality ppl
Yadda yadda ;)

;););)
Yes you said it freeride
Is that what happens with you?
;););)