Interesting stuff
800,000 international students Australia-wide Guy.
Guy smiley. Any Australian getting the necessary marks can go to university. Even with shit marks, mature aged students can also get in.
Foreign students have never replaced Australian ones at universities. It's not a case of one or the other. It's always been Australian students + international ones.
The reality is, the fees that international students pay increases university resources, increases research funds, increases opportunities for post graduate studies for Australian students, and increases the quality of post-graduate studies via international collaboration. Plus 240,000 people work in the sector. That's a lot of positions for Australian graduates, largely paid for by foreign students.
The idea that international students take the place of Australian students is pure A Current Affair garbage.
A fun factoid:
Pre-Howard, fed Govt funding for universities was around 80%.
Now? Around 30%.
And Howard's super pump of the international full-fee paying student, and associated carrot dangle of visa and citizenship relaxations, as the fix to 'make up' for the funding cuts for his entire time in office. Universities as an 'industry'. Liberal wet dream!
Nek minnit...
Join the dots.
One way or another, the international student gravy train is leaving the station.
As it was always destined to do.
There's always been international students at universities, but over the last two decades a great demographic bubble swelled the middle-classes of India and China and their progeny arrived en masse here due to a mix of two things:
-Lack of places at domestic universities, and,
-The prestige of studying at a Western university.
Both reasons are fading. There's an ever-increasing number of unis in China and India, plus Australian unis building campuses over there, and the rise of the middle-class has lifted material wealth in India and China, which brings Western unis down a few pegs.
The day will come when our unis have lost the appeal that brought Chinese and Indian students in droves.
Dale - Cooper, Is that drop in percentage of fed government funding of the uni system partly due to governments bumping up fees for students? Not sure if the figures are due to increased fees received from OS students + shifting more fees onto local students rather than government funding.
@ Facto It's called being smart and was a smart move:
As you loose industries as we have over the last 30 years going offshore, we needed to create new industries and jobs.
That high cost of funding is then not needed and can be spent elsewhere.
If it now changes, that's life, things change, we keep moving and evolving.
Post-Corona?
Huge shortfalls; no funding stop-gaps; 3 times the 'rules' for JobKeeper employer eligibility have been changed to exclusively exclude universities.
10s of thousands of jobs in the balance; campuses in the balance.
The corporate vultures are circling ready to pounce.
Privatisation comes to the rescue!
Again!
US style tertiary education landscape, anyone?
What's next?
Secondary? Primary?
Prisons?
Industrial relations?
Where do university profits end up?
International students have increased revenues massively, and technology means they can accept more with minimal cost increase.
Are profits effectively plowed back in or are there investors (for want of a better word) that get some type of return?
Never waste a crisis Dale.
Shock doctrine 101.
Strap yourselves in.
Back in the harness, and a busy day. This particular subject needs more attention.
See how I go tomorrow.
Dale -Cooper, we all know increasing royalties on non-renewable resource extraction, and cracking down on companies domiciled in tax havens would be a great way to pay for the bailout.
We also know that that's never going to happen. Get ready for the LNP push to privatise pretty much everything, starting with the ABC.
"...The reality is, the fees that international students pay increases university resources, increases research funds, increases opportunities for post graduate studies for Australian students, and increases the quality of post-graduate studies via international collaboration. Plus 240,000 people work in the sector. That's a lot of positions for Australian graduates, largely paid for by foreign students.
The idea that international students take the place of Australian students is pure A Current Affair garbage."
at what cost?
ccp infiltrated the campuses, policies, and pedagogy of our universities...
shame shame shame
its also a shame so many casual staff will lose their positions, truly, but really, anyone with brains possessing a single objective bone that worked the sector knew it was a joke of a system that's days were well and truly numbered for SOOOO many reasons... get over it... well overdue
"Huge shortfalls; no funding stop-gaps; 3 times the 'rules' for JobKeeper employer eligibility have been changed to exclusively exclude universities."
probably a good call, considering the compliance and complicit-ness of the staff in undermining all that was great about our once grand university system ...fucken gimps shoulda stood up years ago... the power of the dollar sadly (and short contracts!)
"10s of thousands of jobs in the balance; campuses in the balance."
Oh well, some pretty lame campuses, positions, output, and negligable returns getting around... nature likes to (needs to) balance things up from time to time... well well overdue...
"The corporate vultures are circling ready to pounce.
Privatisation comes to the rescue!
Again!
US style tertiary education landscape, anyone?"
but yeh, defo not 'all good'... quite bad actually with lnp at the helm
What's next?
Secondary? Primary?
already happening/happened
...you were defending it ...vehemently...
...you duplicitous moron (UI#1)
Ah Sypkan, fully embracing the core, guiding principle of modern conservatism I see. That'd be anti-intellectualism of course.
its got nothing to do with conservatism
its about privatisation!
all about privatisation, corrupting the system and process at every level
the whole 'value' of our uni system was its independence
sold it all for a pittance short term gain
the 'intellectualism' was also bought
VicLocal says "Foreign students have never replaced Australian ones at universities. It's not a case of one or the other. It's always been Australian students + international ones....."
Well actually VL you are wrong, in fact you are so fucking WRONG I'm taking a leaf out of your book and using capitals.
Afraid my family has firsthand experience with this ......
My son got a year 12 enter score of 97.5 and successfully enrolled in a course at Melbourne University which included the subjects of advanced physics and maths. After a semester in which he passed all subjects he decided he didn't like the course and applied for another. The university's response was sure thing but the quota for HECS fee students (you know Australians) has been filled you have to go into one of the many vacant full fee places (you know $22,000 pa at the time foreign student ones). So what the university was saying to my son you're barred from a HECS fee place but we have any number of vacancies for foreign students which we are happy to offer you.
Now no amount of letter writing to the university and state/federal members of parliament changed that and my son ended up studying the course of his choice at home with the Open University before being accepted into Monash the following year. He now has a Masters Degree.
So VL check your facts (no actually check them) before bombastically spraying your bullshit here/
AndyM, exactly 800,000 students + 1,000,000 plus temporary workers. These numbers are crazily out of control and impossible to reconcile with a post coronavirus Australian economy with massive permanent unemployment.
Dale, exactly neo-liberal wet dream.
Just a thought: how's the neo-liberalism balance sheet going atm? Have all the over-hyped gains of the last 30 years been snuffed out in a few short months of CV? I reckon that balance sheet is looking almost insolvent in the US and UK and to think the right here wanted us there already!
Syppy, you mean my Bachelor of Colour Therapy isn't worth the paper it's printed on?
I'm still paying off the HECS debt.
Jack Mundey was a great honourable man. In Victoria we had Norm Gallagher's BLF who were equally effective with Green Bans that saved many of Melbourne's iconic buildings - take a walk down Collins Street from Spring to Spencer Streets and pretty much any old building standing today was threaten with development and saved by the BLF. The catalyst for the BLFs green bans was the destruction of many of Melbourne's architectural treasures at 55 Collins Street by a company called Mainline. The redevelopment started in 1970 was completed over a decade later because of union work bans and only because the banks backing the project (ANZ and I think AMP) took it over. In part the BLF's big act of revenge on developers at the time. Sadly Norm's good name was lessened when he was caught building a holiday house at a developers expense, small change really.
Guysmiley, the number of HECS fee courses is determined by the amount of funding the Federal government pumps into the system. It's got nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the number of international students.
Your beef isn't with foreign students. It's with the Federal government (that determines the amount of funding for Australian students) and the university (that determines which courses get the funding and how many students can access it). Foreign students pay their own way, they don't take Commonwealth supported places. If your son didn't get a Commonwealth supported place, it's because one didn't fucking exist, not because a foreign student took it. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.
So going back to my premise then VL, the first and foremost reason Australian Universities exist is to educate Australian (citizens) students. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.
"Afraid my family has firsthand experience with this ......
My son got a year 12 enter score of 97.5 and successfully enrolled in a course at Melbourne University which included the subjects of advanced physics and maths. After a semester in which he passed all subjects he decided he didn't like the course and applied for another. The university's response was sure thing but the quota for HECS fee students (you know Australians) has been filled you have to go into one of the many vacant full fee places (you know $22,000 pa at the time foreign student ones). So what the university was saying to my son you're barred from a HECS fee place but we have any number of vacancies for foreign students which we are happy to offer you."
Hey Guy, genuine question. Melb uni wouldn't offer your son a commonwealth supported place because of international students. Is that right?
Universities have caps on CSPs and changing programs is dependent on the number of CSPs and GPA.
Also, international student numbers are currently 580,000.
"the first and foremost reason Australian Universities exist is to educate Australian (citizens) students."
Go and complain to the federal government then. Trying to pin not enough Commonwealth supported places for Australian citizens on foreign students really is disingenuous.
And so what if universities make a profit from foreign students and then re-invest those profits into better facilities and more research funding? Do you seriously think Australian students don't benefit from the massive infrastructure developments on campuses funded by international student fees? Who do you think pays for a shitload of the post-graduate courses and research being conducted?
Cheers mate, lived and worked in Hawaii for 6years or so early late 90,s- 2000,s, good time to be a Aussie surfer there, just when the whole tow surfing thing was hitting its straps so room to more room for a haole boy at all the name spots while the Alpha dogs were off towing something bigger and better.
Got to meet a lot of people on a different level through work and by being there all year rather than as on holiday for a couple weeks during the peak season rush. Mostly on North shore at Sunset Beach neighbourhood but spent around a year on Kauai and few months on Maui. Did some work for Dick brewer early in the stay and Eric Arakawa later so lucked into contacts for having the right tools for the job. Dream come true stuff really .
Lots good and some bad or shall I say "interesting" encounters. Lot of radical off season stuff both in and out of the water.
As for old mate (who later on went to be run over by a fishing boat and getting his toes chopped off while we were doing a dawn patrol on the west side in summer -another story in itself) he was feeling pretty cool hanging with Perry, he got set up with a house up behind Sunset beach Elementary living with Perry,s girlfriend (while Perry lived with his wife and kids up the road ) gnarly hapa Chinese / Haole lady, drug dealer and nasty piece of work in general. Anyhow one day I go round to pick him up for a surf and he is visibly shaken. We go off to surf and he tells me that the night before him and Perry went to town to pick up a mate of Perrys from the airport. The "Russian" (couldnt script it) was coming in from new York for a visit, they get to the airport (this is prior to sept 11 stuff so different times at airports) , Perrys mate walks out and meets them at the car , all leis and greetings, then after a quick discussion with the new arrival Perry tells old mate that he has to go in and pick up the arrivals bags off the carousel, party is over and it is obviously not a request... To his credit I guess he manned up and walked in picked up the two bags off the carousel and walked right out (what else could you do except perhaps get on a plane right then and never come back -ever), drove back to the north shore like nothing happened , lucky boy.
Lesson learnt (well in the end old mate fucked up a lot of times and did end up having to leave the north shore) but certainly was a good indicator of how hanging with the heavies on the north shore can go for tryhards (of which there are a great many arriving there every year) . Lesson for me too, fly low, work hard and show respect.
Last I heard Perry was in jail, his beautiful daughter went down a few years earlier (taking the rap for him for something by all accounts). My experience with him were nothing but aloha and larger than life character, ex navy seal diver, massive gnarly enforcer , great surfer but I,m sure there are plenty out there with opposite end takes, his MO was if you were causing problems he would grab you and then sink under water with you in a bear hug (he was a freediver so good luck )then bring you up and couple slaps or punches and then "get the fuck out of here Haole" north shore was the wild west then compared with the rainbows and unicorns for rich haoles it is these days.
Mores the pity really.
More where that came from.
Johknee, you’re understanding is correct, our beef was while there were any number of vacancies (for foreign students) there was no flexibility in offering an Australian citizen a place. Again, what is their primary role? Educating Australians or export industry?
Yep, those are fair questions
So you basically got it wrong saying international students took your son's HECS place at uni.
"Again, what is their (universities) primary role? Educating Australians or export industry?" It's a meaningless question Guysmiley. Universities want to provide the best possible education experience for all students. If you think Australian Universities aren't educating Australians well enough, it's because universities are limited by federal government funding.
Here's the reality. The number of Australian students has gone up steadily for decades. So too has the number of international students studying in Australia. Universities are clearly educating more and more Australians and earning bigger and bigger export dollars (well until Covid 19 hit). They are doing both. It's not a one or the other situation.
.
Did someone say "pure A Current Affair garbage"?
Seppo, step right up! Even though that'd be doing ACA a disservice.
I think you've achieved some kind of record, comrade, even by your hi-lo standards. Every paragraph groundless, ridiculous, deeply ignorant, and just plain wrong to boot.
Punk doco episode about to start...
To be continued...
Certainly fits the thread Mike, very interesting stuff indeed. Cheers. I remember a snippet of some old surf vid that had PD casually swan diving from take off out into the flats at huge Pipe. That sequence is still clear in my mind to this day for some reason.
Epic Mike. Bloody epic
Agreed , Mike.
Any more stories you feel like putting up , I will gladly read .
Cheers
Future of democracy is arriving
PS....if you don’t want to comment on the content of the link , then don’t bother commenting. Really , truly not interested in a single comment regarding the source.
If you don’t have the ability to avoid ad hominem then you’ve got nothing worthwhile to say anyway.
Interested in hearing opinions on what the link discusses.
Perspective
I thought that it (the content of the link) sounded a like a snipe at the new roosters in the mainstream-media henhouse.
@Blowin, sounds like there's more to the story about the two physicians from Bakersfield:
Don't have to dig to the deep state to see why the axe grinding:
https://www.afr.com/companies/media-and-marketing/news-corp-slams-google...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/go...
https://www.afr.com/chanticleer/rupert-murdochs-steps-up-antigoogle-camp...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/knewz-news-corps-n...
Nice Stu, as always never trust those viral videos, especially ones pushing a certain conspiracy or agenda.
I’ve never seen the video by the doctors so can’t comment .
I was referring to the tech companies deciding what was going to be censored. Such as when they enforce the WHO perspective even though the WHO has itself been wrong on several occasions and it’s integrity under doubt.
My point was the slippery slope of censorship.
The internet was meant to be the ultimate democratisation of information but is now returning to the model of governmentally assented information only.
The science was never settled on the Wuflu. Still isn’t . Yet the banning of alternative viewpoints and opinions is put forward under the guise of limiting mischievous disinformation.
No one knows where the virus originated. The fatality rate . The R 0. Why it affects some regions and not others. Whether humans will build resistance.
There is more that remains unknown about the virus than is definitively proven , yet the internet is already being scrubbed of dissenting theories.
This is governmental overreach. It’s the purview of totalitarianism. The virus should not be used as a Trojan horse to censor alternative thought.
"Interested in hearing opinions on what the link discusses.
What it DOESN'T discuss, doesn't even mention, is that the video was condemned by two national physician groups (AAEM and ACEP) who said in part:
"As owners of local urgent care clinics, it appears these two individuals are releasing biased, non-peer reviewed data to advance their personal financial interests without regard for the public’s health.
COVID-19 misinformation is widespread and dangerous. Members of AAEM and ACEP are first-hand witnesses to the human toll that COVID-19 is taking on our communities. AAEM and ACEP strongly advise against using any statements of Drs. Erickson and Messihi as a basis for policy and decision making."
And there's fearless Tucker Carlson railing to the Fox faithful about censorship while engaging in his own cunning form of it.
FOX news sowing the seeds of discontent in a failing America.
“COVID-19 misinformation is widespread and dangerous. “
This is true.
Particularly on the scale and reach of such an international institution as the WHO which stated that restrictions on travel had no effect on containing the virus and were racist. And that face masks were useless.
Seriously.....that’s what their official stance was.
The WHO spread more dangerous disinformation in their official capacity than if there had been 20 million Wuflu protesters in Melbourne , yet it is this unaccountable, unelected and provably unreliable source which is now used as gold standard for the justification of internet censorship.
The two doctors may have been wrong , but they were no more wildly incorrect than the WHO.
And yet here we are.....the information available to the public decided by untrustworthy government and unelected tech companies.
"My point was the slippery slope of censorship.
The internet was meant to be the ultimate democratisation of information but is now returning to the model of governmentally assented information only" um, it's always been censored lol:
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parlia...
"And there's fearless Tucker Carlson railing to the Fox faithful about censorship while engaging in his own cunning form of it" yeah, I thought that was pretty rich too!
That "doc" that did most of the talking reminded me of Dr Oz for some reason?
I wish I had as much time as an #antivaxxer to do my research, but I don't, so I'll offer a few thoughts off the top of my head.
The WHO is a UN agency and I imagine they're as hamstrung as, say, UN peacekeepers who can't intervene in sovereign matters but mostly just observe and report. They regularly cop shit for a) not doing enough, and b) doing too much. If they overstep the mark....if they're even perceived as overstepping the mark, they risk having countries withdraw support and then the delicate balance of dialogue and diplomacy would fall apart.
That would be a tragedy, as most of the current class of whingers would have no clue how the WHO has served the world well in matters such as AIDS control through Africa, and malaria (and similar blood-borne parasites) through Asia. It took regional, and in some cases global, co-operation to fight those all those diseases and it was only possible through the WHO.
A few weeks back Scott Morrisson said that WHO officials needed to have the powers of UN weapons inspectors. It was both one of the best things he's said as PM, showed he wasn't playing towards Australian exceptionalism as Trump is doing in America, and it also recognised that the WHO is curently limited in what information it can seek. They don't have carte blanche to waltz into a Wuhan biolab, go anywhere, report on anything, but Scomo thinks they should - and I agree
Seems to me that in America, the WHO is fighting the insidious strain of bastard Libertarianism, and it's losing, but it will be the American people that ultimately lose. Watch as nutjobs throw up waves of alternative research and theories, all of it horsehit, that does nothing but atomises the last remnants of solidarity.
Every man for themselves...
You don’t need to research to know that the WHO is fallible and that alternative opinions aren’t irredeemably incorrect and to be presumed so to the point of outlawing their existence.
Is that science now ?
Dissenting perspectives not acceptable even though those entrusted with The Truth are known to be ineffective and bungling ?
That's just complete BS stunet. Everyone knows the WHO is responsible for this virus. Think about it. How many letters in China and WHO? 5 and 3. 5-3=2. The second amendment. They are stealing our guns. Who is behind it? Gates as in Bill (4 letters in his name). 2+4=6 as in 666. The number of the beast, who is the evil force behind the whole thing. Luckily Donald, the chosen 1. is on our side. 6-1 = 5 as in 5G. Join the fucking dots mate.
Better one fallible agency that's striving for objective truth, than a million individual voices spewing their version of 'truth'.
Especially in this instance where time was of the essence, as was a united effort.
No, science is a rigorous process that involves the testing of hypotheses in a statistically robust and replicable manner, then submitting clearly communicated, objective results for peer-review and publication (if you're lucky), no alternative opinion in there.
What is alternative opinion anyway? Define it. Is it claiming that drinking bleach or injecting light will cure covid? I'd call that quackery. And I suppose if the quackery gets to the point that it could endanger human life (not everyone has the privilege of a good education and knows not to drink bleach) then they're going to censor it, which I agree with.
Well said Terminal.
An alternative opinion to the WHO was the border closures and community lockdowns which has proved effective in halting the spread of the virus as demonstrated by Australia.
Our country ignored the dangerous misinformation disseminated by the WHO and we have reaped the benefits.
The WHO directives were never based on peer review science. They were politically motivated.
Unless you think the WHO’s refusal to acknowledge the sworn independence of 24 million Taiwanese is based on science.
I’m not saying that the WHO isn’t staffed by capable , determined and well intentioned people who are experts in their field .
Terminal said : “No, science is a rigorous process that involves the testing of hypotheses in a statistically robust and replicable manner, then submitting clearly communicated, objective results for peer-review and publication (if you're lucky), no alternative opinion in there.“
I agree. That is the definition of science. And you can agree that a lot of the WHO’s drastic proclamations have not been based on science. The WHO said that racism generated by border closures was more dangerous than the virus.
How is that based on science ?
Not sure why you think I’m anti-science. This has nothing to do with science.
This has to do with tech companies censoring the internet.
I’m in lockdown as much as anyone, better to err on the side of caution . Yet theres not even definitive, scientific proof that lock downs are the most effective way of dealing with the virus yet it’s illegal to question this non-scientific assertion.
It's time we all listened to Johnny Farnham....
"An alternative opinion to the WHO was the border closures and community lockdowns which has proved effective in halting the spread of the virus as demonstrated by Australia"
But it has elsewhere, I think that other factors are at play in Aus with the relatively low infection rate, lower population density for one.
"The WHO directives were never based on peer review science. They were politically motivated"
How do you know this? Do you sit on the WHO board?
Have it cunts