# Body Boarding #

I totally respect and have time for lids. I started out in the ocean on a lid and it taught me how to read and handle myself in the ocean. As toddlers we would ride boogs in the little shoreys for hours on end!

However I totally agree with Indo that the skills are totally inferior. I stopping lidding cause its bloody boring. Getting barrells takes little to no effort and with flippers its simply too easy to catch waves. I got bored very quickly, I mean plain and simply all you have to do is lie there...

Enter my first foam surfboard 10-15 years ago and I still have the craziest hype every time I go for a surf. No surfer will ever be perfectly happy with their surfs. Every turn and every wave can always be improved on and that's why I love it.

You can never in my mind be a perfect surfer meaning the boundaries are endless!

dandob wrote:

And Derek hynd is some kind of genius because of the finless thing? Watch hawaiin cavin yap from 20yrs ago on 43 inch piece of foam on YouTube.20

Yep and Danny Kim 10 years before that. Airs, 360s, tail sliding lay backs, and sliding into barrels.

stunet wrote:

Short burst of paddle speed to get in under the lip and less nose to fit the tight radius of the wave.

So if the extra width is due to the extra 'short burst of paddle speed', couldn't you keep the outline narrow and just hide more foam under your chest by increasing the thickness?

yocal wrote:

stunet wrote:

Short burst of paddle speed to get in under the lip and less nose to fit the tight radius of the wave.

So if the extra width is due to the extra 'short burst of paddle speed', couldn't you keep the outline narrow and just hide more foam under your chest by increasing the thickness?

Probably could. I know with longer guns extra foam for paddling has been put into thickness. Some of the dims I see for modern guns are radical - 3.5 or 4 inches thick.

However, that's not gonna cut it with shortboards where you wanna feel the wave and make quick adjustments. Also, planing speed comes, not from total surface area, but only the board's surface below your chest and feet. i.e a long, narrow board and a short, wide board may have the same surface area but the short and wide board will get up on a plane quicker.

'Yep and Danny Kim 10 years before that. Airs, 360s, tail sliding lay backs, and sliding into barrels.'

Yeh, whatever he surfed no denying that guy was ridiculously good.

So was Jack Lindstrom.

I surfed in Indo in the late seventies, with Daniel Kiami, who back then put the spotlight on boogers. and anyone who surfed with him was impressed by his charging and barrel riding. Even Marvin Foster talked him up. Hilarious guy, really fun to surf with.

'However, that's not gonna cut it with shortboards where you wanna feel the wave and make quick adjustments. Also, planing speed comes, not from total surface area, but only the board's surface below your chest and feet. i.e a long, narrow board and a short, wide board may have the same surface area but the short and wide board will get up on a plane quicker.'

Yeh, kind of McCoy's approach. The average guy on seeing a nugget for example would think it would be suicide at ledgy waves, say blacks, but good in 'fatter', fuller waves. However, the curves fit perfectly into that ledgy shape, waves with lots of draw, and the surface area in contact with the water gives so much hold and control. But, I found my blacks specific nuggets were at a disadvantage in really large, deep water waves with more almond shape, less draw, less curvy, power in the top part of the wave, rather than the base. It was pretty much the opposite to what most people thought.

personally i find it easier to make quick adjustments on a narrower, higher volume board. but agree the ability to plane earlier overrides the need for maneuverability... when you are getting sucked up the face at the takeoff all you want to feel is yourself planing back down as early as possible.

Im interested in this cause i want to get my shaper to make me one. Just this month I finally joined the bandwagon and dropped my dims down to 5'10 for a shorty (with 19' wide) Ever since I was a 12 year old grom I have been riding upwards of 6'0 (usually 18 3/4 wide) as a shorty. And it performs noticeably well in slabby stuff, however it has a wide rounded square tail, so is hard to lock into the face.

I have a 6'5 rounded pin that is narrow as hell and it has been unbeatable in big hollow stuff (think sth strads & spookies) for years. But not perfect for slabby stuff with tighter radius tubes (reefs with heavy entries) The 6'5 is fine in the barrel, but isn't the right fit on the drop.

So im looking at adding a shorter slab-specific board to the quiver, and thinking - should I go wide with a narrow tail (pin) or try to keep it narrow right through.

uplift wrote:

But, I found my blacks specific nuggets were at a disadvantage in really large, deep water waves with more almond shape, less draw, less curvy, power in the top part of the wave, rather than the base. It was pretty much the opposite to what most people thought.

Yeah exactly Uppy same point as my comment about the 6'5 I have in my post above. High rocker, narrow, extra length.

I wouldn't say sth strads or spooks is almond shape but the core difference seems to be that there is a lot more face to connect with at the takeoff.

And its really important yocal to work around whether or not you are primarily a back foot or front foot surfer. For instance, anyone who had a shot on my boards who surfed off their front foot, had a really hard time, because of all the volume in the tail/rails which when unweighted made for feeling out of control, and an actual loss of speed/pump, again because of the lack of weight on the tail which created more drive in that design. So a really good shaper will work around that.

Everyone at some stage of their life has had "that board".... The ultimate all rounder.... When you first jumped on it, you went "fuck"!!! You did stuff in that first session that you never "felt" before.....
IMO, it just takes subtle manipulating from that design.... If I was to surf blacks, which I doubt now being old, decrepit and slow ( more than likely have a seizure just paddling to the island lol) , I'd take out my tried, true and tested stick that I subconsciously know like a wife of 20 years (probably ridden it more often :) )......... The 6'5 x 19 x 2 1/2 that handled everything from fun 4 foot beachies to cyclonic points to shallow dangerous Old woman to Ballina rock wall wedges...... Nothing beats familiarity...

I guess i'm a backfoot surfer then cause i always ask my shaper to pack heaps of volume into the tail on my shortboards so they are high and boxy (but still relatively narrow),

...for my 6'5 and gun its always been low & narrow formula. However I bought a 7'0 off Jeff Bushman at the start of the year cause i snapped my own gun halfway through my trip... It was meant to be for Ezekiel Lau for the Backdoor shootout, but the comp was called off so it was available. He's apparently the same weight as me but the volume in the thing is incredible. Big rolled rails up the front 2/3. Which is in line with what Stu was saying earlier about bigger boards. So even in big wave stuff I am starting to wonder what the benefits are of packing more volume into them.

Thats true in a way sheepdawg, you know those keepers first wave. My first nugget was like that. When it rolled up outside the store in Elliston, and we unpacked it, even though I was used to Geoff's ideas, I was horrified. It was the object of many one liners. I couldn't bring myself to surf it for ages, but when I finally, reluctantly did, it felt deluxe. Mackie made me this thing he called a 'spud', which was pretty much the same scenario. At one stage the spud was all I bothered travelling with, but on some days in the pacific I would have much preferred an 8' 2" version he shaped. The pros would commonly ditch their old favourites and get 'ghost' shapers to shape their boards, still hiding the fact with stickers when heading for Hawaii.

Yeah Sheepdog that's in the back of my mind also, - If I go shorter and wider with this 'slabby' board, and incorporate a rounded pin (or pin), i have my fingers crossed that the board will be easy enough to throw around in small fatter waves too and be mystandard go-to-board. That would be the ultimate.

Still haven't got approvals from the minister of finance yet so there's some solid negotiation ahead before I can sit down with my shaper and talk shop!

Nothing better than getting a custom made huh!

What's the best board you've ever had, yocal? Which board jumps to the front of your mind? The one that made you advance the first time you jumped on it? Believe it or not, mine was a 6'4 x 18 3/4 x2 3/8 v bottom swallow with a semi rounded deck....... softish rails.....

That’s so true, sheepdawg, you know those keepers first day. My first was like that. When it rolled up in a brown paper bag in Elliston, and we unpacked it, even though I was used to Geoff's ideas, I was horrified. It was the object of many one liners. I couldn't bring myself to play with it for ages, but when I finally, reluctantly did, it went off. Mackie always made me do this thing he called a 'pud', which was pretty much the same scenario as when he made me do the other thing called ‘dacks off’. At one stage ‘pud’ was all I bothered doing, but on some days in the pacific (when I was shaping outriggers for Uncle Frank B) I would have much preferred anything that wasn’t banana shaped. The pros would commonly ditch their old favourites and call me up, hiding the fact of what had gone on with sticking plasters when they headed back home or up to Hawaii.

yocal wrote:

Yeah Sheepdog that's in the back of my mind also, - If I go shorter and wider with this 'slabby' board, and incorporate a rounded pin (or pin), i have my fingers crossed that the board will be easy enough to throw around in small fatter waves too and be mystandard go-to-board. That would be the ultimate.

Still haven't got approvals from the minister of finance yet so there's some solid negotiation ahead before I can sit down with my shaper and talk shop!

Nothing better than getting a custom made huh!

Yo cal the board your talking about sound similar to a HaydenShapes Hypto Crypto. Google it. They look pretty good I reckon.

Sheepdog wrote:

What's the best board you've ever had, yocal? Which board jumps to the front of your mind? The one that made you advance the first time you jumped on it? Believe it or not, mine was a 6'4 x 18 3/4 x2 3/8 v bottom swallow with a semi rounded deck....... softish rails.....

I can't put a finger on it Sheepdog!! All I remember is epic sessions and knowing I had the perfect board for the conditions. Scored an empty QLD pointbreak all-time about 4 years ago. Breaking like snapper pumping at 4ft. Rode it on a loaned board from a friend of the family and still think it was the best surfing ive ever done + I had never fussed over swallowtails but this thing was insane. Great board but geez the waves were impeccable... Hard to tell if it was the waves or the board, but they were in sync.

had some awesome sessions on the 6'5 out at solid spooks... Bought a simon anderson 6'0 once and it changed my mind about tail width & thickness. I think it was called an XFC. So I have been using those concepts with my shaper ever since.

To be honest ive been pretty plain with orders from my shaper over the last few years. i tried the 6'5 planshape at 6'4 and 6'3.. both were good but only lasted a few months each cause it was pumping that year and I was surfing heaps. And used the same general theory for my shortboard about 10 times now, ranging between 6'2 to 6'0 trying to find the perfect formula.

So now that i've started to dabble sub 6'0 for my shorty its kind of like discovering a new realm of possibilities... just about 5 years after everybody else in the surfing world latched onto the idea haha.

goofyfoot wrote:

Yo cal the board your talking about sound similar to a HaydenShapes Hypto Crypto. Google it. They look pretty good I reckon.

Cheers Goofyfoot that's definitely close to the mark! Met a fella on a surf trip once who reps for GSI and he was raving about it & surfing it really well. (He also happens to have the best job in Australia).

Yocal.... Alot of it is bs..... Marketing...... I don't think Kelly is surfing any better on these smaller 4 fins.... In fact, I reckon he's gone backwards..... Trends come and go.... Longer, shorter, thicker, thinner, rocker, flat deck, rounded, blah blah blah...... Designed to keep you broke...... It's all well and good if you are a pro getting free boards...... super thin glass jobs.....
But the common punter??????
Bottomline - next time you come across a board that blows your mind, never EVER get rid of it..... Keep it.... Even if it is snapped.... Use it as your plainshape...... Throw it in the shed......
Seems like you are a 6'0 to 6'5 sorta guy.... You reckon you had a 6'3 that worked well, but it's fucked now......
I wouldn't go under 6'0, man......... I'd go 6'2, or 6'3..... I'd get an extra layer of glass on the deck for reinforcement......
Do you have flat decks? Fully rounded? semi rounded? It's amazing how much difference this makes, when you consider the amount of foam between 2 identical shapes, but ones a flat deck, and the other fully rounded...... I've always opted for the compromise - semi rolled.....

Yeah definitely agree its horses for courses.
I tried epoxy boards without a stringer and they just feel awkward, experimenting with carbon strips is the latest effort to get some duration out of my boards, but they always end up clean in-half so they're not the same board when put back together.

I don't change my thickness/deck often. Probably a good area to look into as well. I don't really like having lots of foam rolled into the deck cause i feel 'above' the board as opposed to not noticing it's there if that makes sense...

yocal wrote:

Yeah definitely agree its horses for courses.
I tried epoxy boards without a stringer and they just feel awkward, experimenting with carbon strips is the latest effort to get some duration out of my boards, but they always end up clean in-half so they're not the same board when put back together.

I don't change my thickness/deck often. Probably a good area to look into as well. I don't really like having lots of foam rolled into the deck cause i feel 'above' the board as opposed to not noticing it's there if that makes sense...

Just run that last paragraph by me again.... So you are saying you ride a flat deck?

low rolled for the 6'5 and gun. The thickness is usually 2 1/4 for all my boards and for my shortboard I don't specify the rails at the front, i just ask for high and boxy rails around the tail. it looks like he semi-rolls them at the front- they seem reasonably low.

2 1/4...... With rolled rails...... Not semi rolled, but fully rolled? So your deck is a bit like a dome, width wise? And how tall/heavy are you?

yeah I would say the 6'5 and guns are fully rolled. its hard to say without going out to the shed and looking at them!

I guess I never paid much attention to it cause my shaper knows what to do every time.

75kg and 6'1 hence the reluctance to go with boards under 6'0 since I was a young lad.

I'm 6'1... Geez, wish I was 75kg lol......... I'd take it you ride a single to double concave...... So, you're aware that concaves also scoop more foam out of a plainshape..... If you are getting ultra light glass jobs, it's understandable why your wafer thin boards are snapping or wearing quick..... It'd also explain lack of drive/floatation in smaller surf.......
Anyway, ask around your mates if there's a 6'1 or 6'2 SEMI rounded deck (a touch more foam - just nicely rolled into a soft rail) x 2 3/8, with a 13 inch tail...... Rounded square, square, swallow, round - doesn't matter........ See if you can borrow it.... Take it out in some fun 3 footers... Tell us how you go ;)

Cheers Sheepy for the help...

Haha yeah I eat like a horse and it all just vanishes, i'll be laughing till I hit 40 and all of a sudden it catches up!

Single to double, deeper in the bigger boards but only slight in the shorty. 4x4x4 glass jobs on the shorty & 6'5 ... I've tried 6x4x6 on the guns. It is hard to tell the difference on longevity when the gun comes out twice a year and it's 8-10ft... the chances of misfortune are pretty high either way!

Would be keen to hear what people's experiences are with the carbon strips through the centre over the stringer? I guess its like an I-beam concept...

yocal wrote:

Cheers Sheepy for the help...

Haha yeah I eat like a horse and it all just vanishes, i'll be laughing till I hit 40 and all of a sudden it catches up!

Single to double, deeper in the bigger boards but only slight in the shorty. 4x4x4 glass jobs on the shorty & 6'5 ... I've tried 6x4x6 on the guns. It is hard to tell the difference on longevity when the gun comes out twice a year and it's 8-10ft... the chances of misfortune are pretty high either way!

Would be keen to hear what people's experiences are with the carbon strips through the centre over the stringer? I guess its like an I-beam concept...

That's what happened to me, bloke....... About 42/43, actually..... Now I just look at a tim tam and I feel the fat oozing..... lol
I'm a bit old school, mate... As I said, I like an all rounder that handles 3 foot to 8 foot plus..... They do exist...... And yeah, just stick with a nice subtle single to double concave.... I'd even consider a subtle one on your gun..... I mean, you are already freekn flying cos' it's a big wave.... You don't need a hovercraft......

stunet wrote:

Bodyboarding banned at Rockaway Beach

Atleast the UK will save lidding

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/502308/David-Cameron-body-boarding-on-h...

and the riptide response

http://www.riptidemag.com.au/news/2520-british-pm-under-fire-for-going-b...

On some of those short wide boards they work pretty good in some slabs if your back foots on rail to help you angle in/ or knife the rails under the lip. This only seems to work on swallows for me in pintails the board is too easy to put on rail so you over power a knife takeoff doing that rail thing.
I used to ride a lid and got pretty committed to chasing heavy long barrels. But riding a stick was like just better music, rode both for years but got bored of lidding and chasing lid waves. A surf at the local average beachy was just as fun as a good day on a lid.they are good for sussing out spots too. theres a spot here where the end goes dry no one surfs. perfect for a lid.If i still had one.
It is easier thats why waves like shark island can be ridden and charged by lids at any tide on any swell direction. Ive only " seen" two standups try take off on big surge end bowl (s island famous end bowl) in east or ne swells. Mark Mathews and Terapai. Thousands of lids do. But it definitely not as easy as full bigots make out.

Hatred goes way too far imo and its often in areas without good lid waves. Lidders are not hated in cronulla by that many as some of the bodyboarders were just that damn good who gained a lot of respect. Matt Percy,nugget And friends. .

That said i think a lot of lidders abuse how its easier. Its going to take a few falls and a lot of brokensurfboards to get good at the same slabby reefs and some lidders just get in the way or get too greedy with big ego.
I was sleeping in my car recently at a "booger only " beach, never caused any problems or snaked anyone in the water.i was riding a surfboard it was reverse prejudice by some "hardcore" beachie lidders there while standups where offering for me to stay on there couch.

Some people really need to get over this very boring topic. Heaps of lids need to understand how much harder it is to get a stand up barrel in heavy slabs and show some respect. But on the other end of the spectrum, there are plenty of surfers who have never got a real barrel in their lives writing of lidders. Sure there are tonnes of lids who are kooks, but some definitely charge and have tonnes of skill.

I used to lid but very rarely do these days as I haven't progressed in years. Every time I go surfing I feel like I'm improving, and I love the challenge. They are two really different sports, and I can say with certainty that just because you are a good surfer doesn't mean you will be a good bodyboarder, and vice versa. I know gun lids who can barely stand up, but I also know really good surfers who were embarrassingly bad when they had a go on a lid! It also depends a lot on the waves you have nearby. I grew up at Port Elliot and the only good wave there is Knights Beach which just isn't suited to surfing - it is a heavy shorebreak wedge. I think bodyboarding is cool if you surf waves like this, but if you are in waves where your average surfer would be able to stand up, then why bother? Bodyboarding is easier, no question. But the average bodyboarder can get barrelled on waves that only the very best stand ups can, and it is also much easier to charge solid waves where most stand ups would shit their pants in. In the right waves, bodyboarding is heaps of fun. But ask yourself an honest question - if you could get a barrel standing up, why would you want to catch the exact same wave laying down?

caml wrote:

You will see in the next few years a new breed of big wave rider . Hybrids grown in australia down under . Young lads who standup huge slabs on small boards , waves the current group of big wave paddlers cannot surf . Just like boogers they will take off under the lip and jump to their feet fast already in the tube . They will take over big wave surfing as we know it . Spawned from competing with lidders in aussie slabs

In the late 90's Burt Burger shaped a hybrid bodyboard for a lad down Margs way. The first testing ground was that ledge at the north end of the Cobblestones stretch (Thunder bay?). He was doing exactly as you say, dropping into the tube and then getting to his feet while in the tube...this kid could make a Macca's tray look high performance though.

This board was a bit longer than a typical lid, had two serious concaves running through the mid to tail section. This created defined a centre ridge line and sharp rails that gave a semi thruster feel to the board, although finless.

I think Burt shaped a couple of balsa laminate lids for one of the Hardy boys too for big waves. Reports they were way faster than a standard lid, both on entry and down the line. This line of thought stalled though, Burt never shaped anymore of these lids after this lot.

To me they sound like belly boards, a few guys in the late 80,s early 90,s use to ride them down here at Phillip Island, shaped by local shapers, kinda a cross between a body board and knee board either with or without fins, there about surfing prone but drawing lines more similar to a stand up and searching for barrels rather than doing spins and flips and tricks.

I have a mate that rides one in USA has a boat so surfs the waves of the channel islands and i think its called the ranch and uses it when the waves suit instead of standup.

The problem with papios or other forms of hard (wood, fiberglass) lids is no airs and a lack of flex for the scoop. Air drops in big surf will break your ribs(!). If you can get around that they are great to ride. There is a certain fickle and very fast left in indo I'd been keep to take a papio or similar to next time I go.

Comparing stand up surfing to bodyboarding is like comparing apples with oranges. Both require completely different skill sets. Those that have mastered both skill sets can comment with authority, the rest are simply guessing & possibly showing bias either way....... Just appreciate & enjoy good skills no matter what's being ridden I say......

Oh yes thats what there called Paipos, just done a google search and found a few nice site like this one http://mypaipoboards.org/#WHAT_IS_A_PAIPO (his boards are worth a look)

And in the history they brought up an interesting quote (under a very old historical drawing of a Hawaiian women/girl riding a paipos prone)

"Surf historians of the 20th Century often stated
that paipo boarding was for children and adults rode foot boards."

Maybe the attitude towards board boarding goes back further than we think?

Ha! Some nice research there Indo....