J Bay

uplift wrote:

Wingnut, you should be the one chilling. I asked a serious question, as you state that your opinion carries equal weight re my results and experience, and opinion training surfers. You are putting yourself out there as a judge of those results ... I didn't use some of the surfers names, because of the reasons you feel are valid to be incognito. Todd actually gave me a reference, which I've put up before, so didn't mind his experience being told. Surely then you understand that? I also said anyone who knows me knows them, the nicknames most know, its not really that hard to think who ... The surfers I mentioned are standouts, so either you feel they aren't, or that I am full of shit.

Uplift, can you please go back and read my comments and replies. You will clearly see that I have not made any comment about the results you have claimed in the examples you used. I have also stated I understood why you have not mentioning the names, other than Todd. And, for the record, I have no idea of who the other surfers you are talking about.

Now, what I have said, is that until your methods and approach is applied to a top tier competitive surfer it is all just theory in the context of the debate of professional surfers being elite athletes . You're saying your results with the surfers is enough for me (and others on this forum) to understand, but to me it is not even close. Just like my yacht builder becomes surfboard design guru based on theory example.

And, with that, I don't see I need any training skills to be able to have an opinion on the results of your training methods as applied to top tier competitive surfers. I just need to see the results. Show me the results of your training methods applied to a top tier competitive surfer, or surfers. Show me the difference in their performance and results; world titles, event wins, etc. Then, we will have a simple, clear, and arbitrary basis for the assessment of your theory. Until then, it's just theory and your opinion.

I have not commented on your skills, experience or knowledge. What I have done is seek clarification of the results, the outcomes, the examples of success, from the application of your methods on a top tier competitive surfer.

uplift wrote:

... because you asserted that I wished to 'educate' ...

That was meant as a compliment, not criticism. Read the context of that in my comments and you'll see I say as much.

uplift wrote:

... You misunderstood, I think that cleaners can do elite cleaning, which is the equivalent, equal to elite surfing. If you disagree, try being an elite cleaner for years on end ...

Yes, I think I did misunderstand if that's what you meant.

uplift wrote:

Wingnut, you should be the one chilling ...

Uplift, I want to come back to this and finish on it ...

Reading threads and comments on this forum I can see you have copped some flack. But, as I have written, it seems to me, that your are actually trying to help.

I think you are misinterpreting my questions, and are not fully reading my comments, but instead, mixing them with what others have written, and combined, you are taking my genuine comments and questions as slanted attacks like another naysayer ... You're then coming back, having taken my comments as criticism, and taking an aggressive approach on your replies, to such an extent that this is posted:

udo wrote:

Uplift its a fucking shame you do this, you do know so much about training and muscular stuff and good info for us all.......then you lose the plot when anyone asks for proof of any kind ...

So, with that from another, longer term user of this forum, I went back and read more, before completing this post, and replying to you. I wanted a better perspective, and some time to consider my comments.

In the end, I concluded that written words do not have the benefit of non verbal communication. And, even with the spoken word, this old chestnut came to mind:

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.” I believe that quote is from Robert McCloskey.

It was then, that an old communication tool cane to mind, so I used it, and would suggest you, and anyone on here does the same, in times of heated communication, debate, disagreement and even criticism. It goes like this ...

Make a "gun" with you hand, point your index finger toward an object, any object, like you would when you blame someone, or are making a point, and make sure the rest of your fingers are tucked in, with your thumb pointing up like a trigger. Now, look at how many fingers are point away from you (one, your index finger) and how many are pointing back to you (three, the ones wrapped back, your middle, ring and little fingers) ... this is the perfect balance for assessing any communication. Blame outward by one, and three to yourself ...

Oh, yeah, and the thumb pointing up, it's the outside force, or appeal to higher authority or outside influence that is often needed to ensure clear communication.

With that, uplift, I apologise if you feel any of my comments have been criticism of your skills, experience and knowledge. But, equally, can you please show me the results from the application of your methods to a top tier competitive surfing. Until then, thanks for the discussion.

No worries wingnut, as I said way, way back, the 'science' approach doesn't interest me, but there's plenty of the science stuff in 3poles link (which has remained commentless), if you are interested in that view. And as I clearly said no, I haven't trained any ASP surfers. But you asked if I trained any surfers, so I explained my results there, using examples of surfers that are widely considered standouts, and whose performance improved. And again, it does really interest me that my approach, which I have stated on here clearly, numerous times, has resulted in pretty much the exact same conclusion as the 'scientific' approach as highlighted in 3pole's link. But, on that note, I will say again, I can't see how the widespread chronic leg weakness, as identified and highlighted in the scientific approach can be isolated from a corresponding glute/back/hamstring weakness, as the whole group are connected, and work together, to form what in weight lifting, and athletic circles, is known as the 'core'... not as is the common misconception, abs group.

Also you asked me about my opinion re the connection of basketball fitness and surfing. That again to me is obvious. The common mistake is considering surfing as some super difficult, unique activity, where balanced fitness/strength is different than other activities requiring fitness, explosiveness. Remembering that 'fitness' is all encompassing to any experienced trainer, ie, mental, emotional, flexibility, recovery, strength, speed, power, balance etc. So, I provided examples where despite misconception, highly ranked pro surfers have been shown to be lacking in, or not as 'fit' in those areas, on a level playing field, even in some examples, where the general public is concerned.

What did you think of the scientific evidence highlighting the glaring weakness's in ASP surfers? And the treatment, the conclusions?

I like and applaud your appeal to a higher authority ideas, but prefer along the lines of Lester Levinson. Interesting though, as I feel the same approach can be applied rather than the scientific one re all fields, including training/fitness. I have done this for over 45 years, and none of the commonly used 'breakthroughs' came from scientists, but were the classic lightbulb moments of passionate individuals involved in the activity. For example, one of the greatest, most influential 'breakthroughs', dominating the field to this day, was the seemingly ridiculously simple (as are many genius discoveries) revolving barbell and weight set. Arthur Jones turned the training world on its head, I remember that era as if it was yesterday, with his assertions re recovery, intensity, and the invention/adaptation of Nautilus cams.

Nutrition is massive, paramount re its influence on fitness, in my, and any really experienced trainers experience, and is a very controversial subject, so it surprises me that it wasn't mentioned and highlighted in the 'scientific' link.

Because of your interest, or anyones, I want to make this, that I consider is a crucial point. Literally every approach widely used today, is inadvertantly based on the use of anabolic steroids. They dominated fitness training and were totally legal from the fifties, to about 1990. The so called 'golden era' of training was when steroids were freely available, and not considered any problem/crime at all. Arnies era, whilst it brought fitness to the public eye, hoodwinked the public, and the users at the same time. Then came insulin, growth hormone, blockers the list is endless. The dribble will say the drugs have minimal effect, just the finishing touches. Heres women that use them.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=miss+olympia&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=...

Because of the time I have been interested, I have seen each new drug's influence. Very early on marketers quickly realised that if the public put results down to drugs, training systems, equipment, supplement sales would suffer, so the denials and secrecy began long ago, in the fifties. The real result is that even to this day, supposed 'scientific' methods are inadvertantly shaped by the drug's effects. Looking at just what drugs do, that is, those women, its not hard to see what effect they have in sporting events. Stand a truly natural bodybuilder along side even those women, and as impressive as they can be, there is no comparison, and never has been through out history. Anyone that can match them in that field, has no choice. So, along those lines, if someone can match say Armstrong, Johnson, etc etc, etc, etc, etc, well. To get fit without all that stuff is totally different than using it, and I am certain of my knowledge and experience in that area, as it has long been apparent to me, and I have never used them. All of those drugs have actually, and seriously held the real knowledge of how to produce fitness back, and it is a mistake not to seriously take it in to account.

Here's an interesting, to me, 'new' comment.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-07-26/simpson-postmatch

'Simpson's team was beaten at the coalface, with Richmond gathering 27 more contested possessions than the Eagles in very heavy conditions.

Simpson said his side needed bigger bodies in the midfield.

"I think it's less about the intent, it's more about the technique," Simpson said.

"Bigger bodies. I think we need to get bigger … bigger and stronger. So we'll embark on that now in preparation for next year.

"On nights like this two things stand out, the bigger bodies and class. I just thought at the pointy end we just got pipped."'

science? pfft.. who needs science when you have visualisation?

Wingnut, well said sir, uplift won't stop until you agree with him, and your final summary, I'm totally with you on that one,

So we managed 5 pages on topic of J-bay before the broken down record hijacked it again and went off on the same old mantra over and over and over......................................................................... 3 friggin pages of it. How many times do we have to say it. Stop feeding the monkey.

And what a great 5 pages they were.

who the hell have you ever trained fitzy?!?

Come on you blokes ! What's the best way to learn something properly? Repetition and thats exactly what Uplift is trying to do. Teach us all by repetition and in time I'm sure it will work ,with the whole surfing movement being more aware of our approach to the sport and touching on the elite levels that basketballers already possess.

uPLifTs repetition will make him go blind

@grog-an, I could tell ya, it would fill pages, but I might wait until we get a really good thread going and then butt-in and crap on all about it.
@seal, repetition. I'm sure I've heard those that go to the gym talk of repetition.
How nice was it to see an ASP event with good waves and good surfing. Bring on Chopes, I hope it scores solid swell.

Yep Fitz, repetition. You know, lift one, look in mirror, repeat. Lift one, look in mirror, repeat. Lift one, look in mirror, repeat. Flex muscle whilst looking in mirror, repeat. Then repeat again. And to break it up a bit ,drink shake, flex muscle, look in mirror, repeat.

Did I say elite basketballers, in a time in a country when I didn't even rate, didn't even make the news, can anyone remember anything about basket ball ever making the news 40 yrs ago, haha haha, so elite,

You ungrateful, spiteful, sarcastic, bastards!!!

What with the speed of two-fingered, tongue-clenched-in-the-corner-of-the-mouth typing being what it is, and $75 per hour being the putative rate for such an in-demand 'roid rager, this bloke, in a pure-as-driven-snow gesture of humility, an altruistic gesture of community service, has given this website and you ill-behaved rabble what I roughly calculate to be $1,234,890.83 of his precious.

You heathen don't know value when it makes yer eyes bleed!!

Mick. Mate. Carry on.

And on.

....

....

And on.

A big thanks to commissioner Perrow for believing in the surf forecasters and himself
what a fantastic contest it was.

Condolences to the family South African surfer Cameron Dalzeil lost on flight MH17.
R.I.P.

'what a fantastic contest it was.'

In light of this, expert, conclusive scientific evidence,

'Considered one of the top in his field, Dr. Sheppard'

'"Everything we do is based on science and has a purpose and method behind it," said Dr. Sheppard'

'"Almost every surfer I've ever trained lacks adequate leg strength. They are literally weak in the part of the body that provides some serious propulsion. I think traditionally people have thought strength training meant getting injured or getting heavy, or getting slow, but there's no scientific evidence for any of that. Stronger people get fewer injuries because weak things break. That's just physics.'

From here:

http://mobile.surfline.com/#!/surf-news/inside-australia-s-surf-training...

Which is something that as a long experienced trainer and surfer that has always been obvious to me, re professional surfing and its struggle to attract the much publicised sought audience and money, and a situation which has been denied vehemently by the majority of surfers, especially on here. So then, with that scientific evidence, how do you see the self labeled 'elite athletes' who, again, are actually surfers 'lacking in adequate leg strength', and 'literally weak' turning on a truly elite, fantastic performance, which includes 'power' surfing etc? And then, taking that evidence into account, how do you see spectators long conditioned to regularly seeing truly elite, measurable, more than adequate, and extremely strong and powerfull athletes feeling that the ASP and its presentation revolving around surfers proven to be, and reported as 'lacking in adequate leg strength', and 'literally weak' being 'fantastically' impressed. Impressed enough to fork out time and money and miss watching truly way above adequate and extremely, actually the most powerfull athletes on the planet?

Also, having competed with and against the likes of Al Green, the then fastest professional sprinter in the country, Walt Campbell, all American in the big 3 sports US sports, plus ranked along side Carl Lewis in college, and way above Green, (soufle', you may wish to also ask Darryl Pearce, who I played and trained with under Don Shipway as well as against, about him), and Steve Wallace who was considered even more athletic, and one of the most purely athletic college players, but who had huge personal problems that finished his career, and having surfed with world champion surfers, including Fanning, Carrol, Irons, the excitement that raw athleticism adds to exceptional skill is non comparable, missing in the surfers performances. As the science verifies.

The ASP has always been unable to attract the viewer/fan base it seeks. Since its conception. Do you think that continuing to deny the proven, publically reported facts re athleticism, that is, that proven inadequate strength, and the weakness, whilst continuing the paranoia against developing strength and power, or, the athleticism that truly elite athletes have, will work in the ASP's favour? Do you think that the continual criticising and portrayal of truly elite athletes as being incapable of the 'fantastic' and 'elite' performance of the ASP surfers 'lacking in adequate leg strength', and 'literally weak' will change the rut that professional surfing has long been in? Or put simply that the general public will see that continued course as fantastic?

Uplift .... You forgot " The General " ......
please explain his career against yours .... what were his measurements again .... 183 cms & 76 Kgs .....
Australian Basketball in the Eightees hey .... Elite as it gets .

Lifty is there a/what is the difference between having 'strong legs' and core, and being able to control those muscles subconsciously, instantaneously and to a fine degree?

Played heaps with/against him and his brother. I always put surfing first, then moved to Elliston to do that. Again, as you've ignored the physics, the scientific evidence again, don't under estimate the reported, publically documented, feeble state of most surfers. While we are on that Elliston topic, just wondering, re that surfing blacks thing of yours, when you amassed all of your knowledge, experience etc about the place. In version 1:C, not to be confused with versions 1:A, or 1:B, none of which you felt you would explain, but did, in 1:C, the version where you surfed blacks by not going there, because you would've charged too hard, and again surfed it by parking on the cliff and driving off because ditto plus not enough reward, and then around 4 other times 'surfed' it when you took the wrong turn off and didn't go there, did you ever 'surf' it by actually entering the ocean and surfing it? Version 1:D?

mitchvg, the difference between being able subconsciously, instantaneously and to a fine degree control a 50 cc moped and a race tuned grand prix bike. What about the expert, proven opinion...bullshit? And the lack of bums on seats? And pay cheques. The beat goes on?

Uplift, I appreciate your passion for attaining ultimate performance through training but if you believe that surfing would be more popular if the competitors were fitter then you're wide of the mark . Surfing is not more popular ( thank god ) because it is culturally irrelevant to a majority of the world.

Pure athletic ability is not a deciding factor unless the sport itself is firstly appreciated.
Thus explaining why no one outside of the US gives a flying fuck about gridiron even though the players are such supreme athletes as you continually remind us.
Can you please explain to me why I find watching an NBA basketball game to be on par with a kick in the nuts as far as entertainment value is concerned , even though by rights I should be enthralled due to your theory of enhanced physicality rendering any event unmissable.

Have you ever considered that your theory might not be entirely appropriate to surfing as it's not just a sport ? That although based on pure empirically quantifiable physical strength or power some of the greats of the sport have been found lacking, the ability of their surfing to inspire , which is the only true measurement of their worth , has been incredible ?

Surfing is not purely an athletic pursuit , it is also an expression of personality and that often the more unrefined and unfettered the personality , the more unpredictable and exciting the performance.

Occy , Potter , MP , Dane Reynolds , AI - none of these guys were true athletes yet their surfing was spellbinding directly due to their lack of refinement. In fact in Occy's case I personally found his surfing to be more entertaining when he was off on a tangent .

A situation that would not have occurred had he been confined to the mental state that the discipline of the dedicated athlete requires. Quite the opposite. Because to attain that discipline a surfer must forgo that undomesticated quality that makes their surfing so charismatic.

I'm sure Jim Morrison's pitch , range and overall ability to sing would have been vastly improved with correct training and nutrition , but then they wouldn't have been The Doors that millions of people loved.

It's not all about your ability to lift heavy things in this life.

udo wrote:

A big thanks to commissioner Perrow for believing in the surf forecasters and himself
what a fantastic contest it was.

+1 ... Yes. Good call.

He is but a team of many I believe, including input from the surfers themselves.

They do seem to be working with the best mother nature provides during the event window. Other than the first event when the women went out in the best waves, I can't think if any other poor timing around the best conditions on offer.

Lifty what about for the average weekend warrior in average conditions? Let's say you wanna keep nimble on your feet... is pumping heavy weights in the gym (leg press or something...?) going to help you in managing late take offs for example? I imagine skateboarding is the best complimentary pass time.

I'm no Uplift Mitch but I'd have to say definitely . As someone that was out of the water for a decent length of time very recently due to injury and spent that time on what amounted to a muscle wasting, beer induced fat creation program and who then assumed I could just resume surfing at the standard I was accustomed to pre injury , I was in for a rude awakening.

Even after such a short time the entire range of my already somewhat limited ability had been affected detrimentally. Paddling , take offs - especially take offs - fundamental balance , timing ....everything suffered horribly .
So it was off the piss, sand running every morning and surfing any slop as hard as I could till it came back.
The feeling of surfing on strengthened muscles was unreal and made all the difference to my ability so it stands to reason that the stronger you are the more your muscles can support you allowing you to lay it over further , maintain your balance and throw everything into every turn - maybe even bend at the knees rather than the waist if a barrel ever comes along !

'Thus explaining why no one outside of the US gives a flying fuck about gridiron even though the players are such supreme athletes as you continually remind us.'

'http://www.ibtimes.com/super-bowl-2014-ratings-how-many-countries-will-w...'

'I'm sure Jim Morrison's pitch , range and overall ability to sing would have been vastly improved with correct training and nutrition , but then they wouldn't have been The Doors that millions of people loved.'

He would have lived longer for sure. As would lots of 'successsful' people, ala Kerry Packer. As for his performance, do you think say Elvis's, Michael Jackson's, Whitney Houston's, or any performer of that magnitude's last performances, when their health was worse, were better than when they were in their prime re health, fitness.

mitchvg, why would it be any different? You still presumably want to surf your best. It boils down to a fundamental bungle I already highlighted, well, two. Many surfers mistakenly view surfing as more difficult than anything else. Skill is easily, and often, even in the fitness industry confused with pure fitness. I can take any average basketballer, and improve their shot really quickly with just a few changes to skill. They are no fitter. Likewise, little kids learn really quickly, and can learn to balance on fitballs quickly, and squat etc very quickly. No change in fitness, just skill. As I said before, a boxer will make a surfer look clumsy, a basketballer, ditto, then they in turn will make the boxer look clumsy. That is no reflection on pure fitness. I think nothing will improve surfing skill more than surfing. I lived for years at a place where say late takeoffs can be pushed to whatever level you like. Fitnesswise lifting weights helped survive the beatings that wanting to push levels in that direction mean. Plus, as above, athletes like Ben Johnson, Bolt etc aren't terrified that they will become clumsy and slow from building muscle, its the opposite in fact. Obviously you still need ample ability and skill training. Again this is what the science says, if thats what you need to verify it.

'"Almost every surfer I've ever trained lacks adequate leg strength. They are literally weak in the part of the body that provides some serious propulsion. I think traditionally people have thought strength training meant getting injured or getting heavy, or getting slow, but there's no scientific evidence for any of that. Stronger people get fewer injuries because weak things break. That's just physics.'

Clean and jerks can be a really humbling experience for many supposedly quick, flexible, coordinated, fit, strong athletes... with super 'cores'. As can just hanging off a bar lifting their legs properly for 20 reps. If a truly elite athlete see's a weakness identified, as has been in the 'science' of surfing, they dont avoid it like the plague, hide it, ignore it. Ego does that. They fully expose it and make it their business to turn it into a strength. That approach helps anyone.

Change is hard for many people, they feel that by changing that they will somehow lose a part of their very being. Themselves. Successful people are really good at it, embrace it. Will the ASP ever change?

So you believe The Doors would have had the same appeal if Jim Morrison came on stage in an Addidas 3 stripe track suit , fresh from an invigorating gym session ?

The question wasn't whether he would have lived longer and it wasn't about Whitney Houston. But you knew that .

Hows it with g-land fitness? My fitness varies from place to place and have travelled a bit but the most fit i think ive been is at g-land.
long paddles,surfing for long sessions a few times a day, lots of good food ,high carbs high protein, as you already paid for it for a few weeks so you're not cutting corners by eating cheap shit and trying to stay longer as with other indo places ive been, where you can get a bit skinny.Especially ramadan period.
Surf better.

G Land is bullshit. Only surpassed by North West Oz I reckon. Fresh fish and LOTS of it.

Not just G'Land fitness but G'Land mindset, mood, whatever you wanna call it when after a few days of swell you start walking slower, talking slower, and thinking more clearly. Better than drugs.

You've got to get to the WA desert Stu. Your kids would dig it too. G Land is cool but I couldn't do it with a crowd.

Blowin: Cheers. That's starting from a low base though, I'm more thinking about midweek maintenance. I imagine that the return on investment for a weekend warrior who is moderately well balanced and 'strong' is, higher from skating than from muscle strength building...

Lifty: This is a fairly massive generalisation, so your answer might not be so straight forward. But anyway... Is your point that:
the average joe, who has equal measures of skill and fitness, will benefit most from building muscle?

EDIT: the average joe, who has equal measures of skill and fitness, will increase fitness most from building muscle?
More so than by surfing alone?
Increasing your fitness by say, 1.3x, will increase your surfing 'performance' by > 1.3x?

Mitch , what would you rather do ? Skate in the beautiful outdoors with a huge smile on your face , satisfaction from pulling a few hell moves and exercise that is aligned with surfing Or lifting a metal bar over your head repeatedly whilst lying on a stale sweat and jizz stained bench as some suspect body image obsessed clown strains to get a glimpse up the leg of your shorts ..... and paying good money for it ?

Fucken long way to drive with three kids. Alternative is fly and hire but that's damn expensive. I'm currently putting pins in the globe for ideal surf trips with the kids: NZ motorhome mission, Aragum Bay, Cactus (half the road time of West Oz), Christmas Island, Samoa, and if none of them then Ulladulla.

Can't see myself taking 'em to G'Land for a while.

I feelin ya blowin, but having the feeling of isolating and using muscles is good too. Gives you more of an understanding of what might be going on when you injure yourself. Anyway, just trying to leave lifestyle choice/ pleasure out of it for the moment. I'll make that assessment of whether it's worth the trade off, after I judge the benefits of pumping iron...

Stu you are welcome to hang at my place if you're ever in WA, Geralton and Kalbarri have some good waves only four or five hours away. The Bluff and Gnaraloo are about 12 hours away. Im just north of perth.Although i could be on the move soon to Geralton.

Yeah Mitch, I understand mate. My apologies for being such a numb skull. I hope you get some benefit whichever avenue you pursue.

Haha

Stu I'm on my way thru in a few days heading back there now , you can jump in the back of the troopy and say we kidnapped you.

Or alternatively just load the rug rats up with Valium and gun it over yourself. Fuel there and back would cost you a lot less than airfares to Aragum Bay , they would get to roll around in the dirt with the other kids and enjoy the best of their native land free from the bullshit and predations of modern society and you would get shacked off your tree instead of hassling over 2' shoulders with 200 over zealous Israelis who are fresh from a relaxing stint in national service .

Yeah, what the hell, there's no waves around here anyway. I'll grab my 6'8" pack my napsack and meet you down on the corner. Can we stop at Ryan's for a case of Coopers and bag of Cheetos? Should sustain us to Goulburn at least.

We can stop at Ryan's .... For about 5 hours. Don't forget to bring a can opener.

Fuck it mate , bring the whole family. Three across the front seat and four laying on the bed in the back should be no worries. The kids will learn more in a month at the bluff than they will in a year of school. A lot of ladies enjoy it more than they imagine too, good community spirit as the kids run around unsupervised in their little tribe and sundowner wines on the point as daddy gets pitted in backlit caves.

fitzroy-21 wrote:

So we managed 5 pages on topic of J-bay before the broken down record hijacked it again and went off on the same old mantra over and over and over......................................................................... 3 friggin pages of it. How many times do we have to say it. Stop feeding the monkey.

Was a great thread! One thing I like about democracy is that everybody gets a say, ala Pauline Hanson. She got to say her piece and the public unanimously rejected her views. Uplift has been unable to scientifically substantiate any of his hypothesis, but rather goes for the jugular of the person when asked to substantiate the details. There's a lot of informative shit on her not just surfing and I never have much time to read them all but after reading a heap of uplifts post I know just skim over them. To get back on topic after visiting jbay and experiencing the hospitality of the locals and the wave I recommend every surfer book in a month at some stage of their lives.

Yeah Mick and thanks for the coverage. Really enjoyed it.

As you said, I just tend to bypass it, but if others find it informative, good for them.

Hey Mickfree if your still in South Africa could you get me a bottle of Brand Slang, I recommend you get a bottle for yourself, warms you right up.

And some Oma's muslea rusks if that's not any trouble

Lifty: This is a fairly massive generalisation, so your answer might not be so straight forward. But anyway... Is your point that:
the average joe, who has equal measures of skill and fitness, will benefit most from building muscle?

mitchvg, as in most sports, specificity, causing imbalance, and multiple chronic injuries over time is a huge problem. So many surfers have fucked backs, shoulders, knees, necks, etc, which is what stops them surfing at all, let alone just surfing worse and worse over the years. That scenario is so common in all sports. Then there is the ludicrous, honestly all I can call it is a debacle, that plenty pass off as 'training'. Plenty of training does stuff all at best, and commonly more damage than good. I watch people waste time and money regularly. All this terror about building too much muscle is a classic display of the ultimate ignorance and stupidity. Like just picking up some weights will result in masses of athletic, or freakish muscularity. If its so easy, anabolic drug use wouldn't be at epidemic levels.

When Tom Carrol, Meninga, Cash, Waugh etc approached my friend it was because the party was over. 'Experts' had told them that was it, all over. He advocated building substancial amounts of muscle in the right areas, which appearance wise shows as much better balance, posture and support, thus performance. Anyone that can't grasp that concept is a dimwit... at best. We used to both joke about the rantings of surfers re the 'power surfing ' concept, when both our experiences was exactly the same as the expert, scientific one, that is:

'Almost every surfer I've ever trained lacks adequate leg strength. They are literally weak in the part of the body that provides some serious propulsion.'

'weak' power.

Weak legs, means weak core, that is, glutes/back also. His total comprehension of that restored and extended all of those 'finished' careers. I have been in the same scenario as that with plenty of recreational surfers. I showed Todd, considered a brick shithouse compared to most surfers as example, look feeble legs, so feeble knees. Presto, he built legs, and no operations that he was told he needed, were needed.

I think every sportsperson needs two muscle building style workouts a week to counteract imbalance. A bodybuilder, fanatically eating sleeping and training, and doing nothing else that would use one drop of energy, will be lucky, doing exceptionally well to add 5kg of muscle a year for maybe a couple of years, then 2 kg is exceptional (no drugs). So, what do you think that means for you, re getting too massive. However, by doing so, workouts like I advocated, you will drastically enhance longevity, balance, fitness, and so performance.

Like I said, its a combination of both. Less skill practice, it falls away. All the skill in the world is useless if you are crippled, or too unfit to move. Still surfing's not that hard fitness wise compared to lots of things, so plenty can do it. However the general population is getting pretty unfit, the word epidemic is used to describe many conditions affecting the contemprary general public.

Uplift do you recommend incorporating yoga or something similar into your weights/fitness routine? Just as a way of still staying loose and limber as well as building muscle?

Fucken long way to drive with three kids. Alternative is fly and hire but that's damn expensive. I'm currently putting pins in the globe for ideal surf trips with the kids: NZ motorhome mission, Aragum Bay, Cactus (half the road time of West Oz), Christmas Island, Samoa, and if none of them then Ulladulla.

Can't see myself taking 'em to G'Land for a while.

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Stu do cactus with the kids, I did it may just gone, kids loved it. Turned feral chasing lizards and dogs. As long as the mrs is cool chilling out while your out at caves all day . Awesome

ben matson could you please ask your friend thomas carroll why the party was over remember experts had told him it was all over what was so wrong with him that only a mate of uplifts could fix

Goofyfoot, I personally recommend just being smart with the exercises you pick, regarding range of movement. I trained a top, highly credentialled both here and overseas pilates and yoga instructor/teacher for quite a while, and, again most people are humbled when they first try things like clean and jerks, done in a strict style that demands full, low positions. Most can't get into position with no weight, let alone big weights. Due to imbalance and flexibility issues. There are some awesome exercises that enhance strength, fitness and simultaneously flexibility. Just getting the bar on their back, into a strict squat position is a struggle for lots of surfers due to stuffed shoulders. If I did that yoga/pilates ladies pilates class, I could do it. I wasn't the best in the class, by any means, but could do all the positions straight up. Some requiring isometric strength were actually easy for me. Alternatively, every person in that class would be totally unable to do some movements that I would want some one who is serious about surfing to be competent in, due to lack of flexibilty and strength, which would take time to build. I trained Port Lincoln's top footballers, the multiple Mail Medalist, and the young guy from Lincoln on that Fox Sports thing at the moment, over the last couple of years. Both were scared of weights making them... all of the paranoid negatives on here, and had long avoided them. Both struggled with range of motion on many things at first, despite being much more fit and mobile than most, but became incomparably better, and much, much stronger, which they reported boosted their performance, and they wished they had used them years ago. I knew it would be like that, its a scenario as I have stated before, that I saw time and time again years ago.

Too much flexibility can be just as big a problem as not enough though. Sprinters went through all that years ago. Think why grand prix cars have almost zero suspension. All the surfers I have helped rehab have done tons of yoga and stretching, but still had the glaring issues. I love stirring them about it. As did the athletes who went to see my friend. Well above average muscled gymnasts aren't flexible?

But, personally I recommend pilates, rather than yoga, although some forms are fairly similar. Because of the strength that goes with the flexibility. The lady instructor I mentioned is pretty impressive, especially for her age.

'ben matson could you please ask your friend thomas carroll why the party was over remember experts had told him it was all over what was so wrong with him that only a mate of uplifts could fix.

I'm pretty sure one of the mags covered the thing. Being such a knowledgeable surfer, you should be up with all that, and being such a famous, 'core' charger at blacks, you should know all about the guys from there he helped, that were totally stuffed, finished too. Surprise, surprise that you don't.