Bikinis and Islam
Hey Roolf, you raise a pretty good point. We live in a multicultural world that needs to accept difference, we are expected to respect the rights of other in our country. Why cant they accept our beach culture over in their country, hey they live in the sort of climate that you can wear bikinis and is a paradise
Remember when all those riots were happeining in Sydney South, the local SLSA took on some Islamic kids, they even made them a full Lycra bathing suit out of respect.
It is a two way street, If I respect someone different to me, I expect them to respect me.
MTW, saying
"Why cant they accept our beach culture over in their country, hey they live in the sort of climate that you can wear bikinis and is a paradise"
Is a pretty naive and selfish way of looking at things.
We are moving into their towns and cultures and they have certain values in which I think we should be respective of.
If you took your attitude to some places in the world, you would become fairly unpopular in a short amount of time.
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Last year I went on a boat trip to the Ments with a nice looking girl who was born in South Korea but has lived in Aus nearly all her life.
She wore shorts and t-shirts in the lineup not just for her own comfort but to also keep the attention away from her.
Whenever we went walking through the little villages, alot of the guys had eyes on her and I would think there could easily be trouble if she was dressed in hardly nothing, especially if she went out at night.
I feel that woman should try and cover up to some degree, but sometimes this is hard when it's so hot and muggy over there. If it's done in more private hotels or away from the general public then I think it would be fine, but you have to always respect other peoples cultures.
When in Rome...
Good discussion point.
It has to be a case of when in Rome do as the Romans do. I think mtw's point is misguided. All we have to accept in Oz is that people want to wear more covered clothes than us (and that includes men, I've never seen a devout muslim man in shorts), that's not having a culture imposed on us because plenty of anglo aussies wear similarly covered stuff (hijab etc obviously excluded).
About 12 years ago I was on an island of the coast of North East Malaysia, one of the Perhentian islands. Anyway, from what I remember it's in the region which is the begining of islam in Malaysia. Very conservative place, no alcohol available on the island. We wake up one morning and we're chatting to the local dudes who worked around the place and managed the huts we were staying in and there's this chick on the beach about 20 metres from us doing yoga. OK, maybe that's fair enough except she's wearing a g-string bikini. So we get treated to her arse waggling away in the air with little left to the imagination. The malaysian dudes were seriously uncomfortable, and in fact so were we. It was the most culturally inappropriate thing I've ever seen. Hell you wouldn't even do that at Bondi! A few minutes later her bloke joined her and they stood on the beach whirling around these stupid fire twirling things for half an hour still in her g-string.
This is inappropriate behaviour on so many levels. No one should have to put up with fire twirlers. ha. Seriously though, it's just a matter of respecting local custom. I'm not going to roll up to a Fijian outer island and paddle straight out. I'm gonna try to meet the local chief, drink some kava and establish permission to go for a surf. It's just respecting local culture - with the obvious need to do so in certain circumstances if I want to surf safely.
So yeah, I think chicks would be well advised to cover up more in an islamic country like Indo and I don't think that's suffering some sort of discrimination. It's more about respecting the existing culture for your own wellbeing if nothing else, and understanding that you play by the rules of your host whenever you visit somewhere or someone.
Guys, I am not saying that I Would go out of my way to be disrespectful, that is just offensive. If you want to experience the local culture and attend a mosk, you should respect the dress codes or culture etc and women should cover up. But somewhere which has a beach and is a tourist mecca, it should be ok to wear bikinis and not be ofensive. I do not think it would be appropriate for example to go topless etc or wear a g banger whilst twirling fire things. If it was such a problem the local authorities would have designated areas on the beach where you can wear a bikini and other areas where a full cover up would be appropriate, the fact is they dont, so they dont find it offensive.
The problem with society these days is that people who are ignorant come up with rules etc, which are aimed at not to offend. But the people who they are aimed at, could not really give a shit. It was like when they banned the singing of Christmas Carols at a public schools, because the powers (non muslims)were worried that it would be offensive to Muslims. The poor christian kids missed out and when they interviewed the Muslim parents, they could not give a shit!
I am friends with a few very religious jews, but I still can comfortably be myself around them. But I know what offends them and what does not, I would not start eating bacon and eggs in front of them or if I went to a synagouge I would respect the dress code and cover up and wear a skull cap. But when they come to my house I will wear shorts and a t shirt and in thirty years of being frineds not once have they been offended or said anything.
Now tell me, am I still selfish, naive and ignorant?
What I am saying is, let you partners take Bikinis to the destination, then ask the question directly to a Muslim person, probably one of the workers at your hotel. Is it offensive if she wears a bikins, if they say it is not offensive, go for it. If they say it is offensive dont do it.
Stop trying to come up in your heads what is offensive and what is not, the fact is we are not Muslims and we cannot understand what and what is not offensive.
You know how we appreciate when people fit in in Australia, and make an effort to understand our culture. That is all that's required in other cultures. If the culture is modest around town and wears long skirts and covering clothes do that , not necessarily the Burqa or the hijab, and know or find out where it is consideredan inappropriate place to go the locals really like explaining the ins and outs of their culture = s mutual respect.
Usually all resort beaches and breaks are considered ok for bikinis elsewhere no and possible trouble.
Even Thai Buddhist areas are quite modest and in some countries public displays of affection are crimes.
Disrespect make you a legitimate target from any local frustrations, learn their rules let them tell you and gently come close to fitting in!
As it was said, when in Rome...............
Now tell me, am I still selfish, naive and ignorant?
By: "mtw"
No, not after explaining your thoughts on the issue.
But just on the comments I quoted above (without further explanation) it sounded like I'll do what I wan't where I wan't
The best way to approach it is in a sensitive nature and as you stated, asking the locals the general thoughts on the culture and what's allowed and what's frowned upon.
What craig just said.
Thanks guys, is hard to captue emotion when typing these things. When I read back my originals submission I can see how it was percieved.
Food for thought fellas its actually disrespectfull for both sexes to wear bikinis (ladies) or no shirts (gents) out of your resorts in most polynesian islands. Which are mostly bible bashers
Won't be long and they will be banned on the gold coast as well.
Nah wont happen,it's just another thing we will all have to suffer in the name of freedom.
There is always a lot of subjectivety around these issues. Keeping an open mind and (at least) trying to show respect would hopefully assist the situation (i.e: when visiting and being visited).
What is pleasing is the intelligence, respect and manners demonstrated in this thread. A few other threads weren't so; sammij got a hammering.
The polynesian comment by savanova is surprising, I actually had no idea of this - and certainty am not disputing it - the thought just wouldn't enter my mind. A good lesson for me to do my homework before visiting a place (I do) before an overseas mission and not take it all for granted . Cheers for that.
it's good if the girls wearing bikinis have massive cans and are super hot!
There is always a lot of subjectivety around these issues. Keeping an open mind and (at least) trying to show respect would hopefully assist the situation (i.e: when visiting and being visited).
What is pleasing is the intelligence, respect and manners demonstrated in this thread. A few other threads weren't so; sammij got a hammering.
The polynesian comment by savanova is surprising, I actually had no idea of this - and certainty am not disputing it - the thought just wouldn't enter my mind. A good lesson for me to do my homework before visiting a place (I do) before an overseas mission and not take it all for granted . Cheers for that.
By: "pepe"
I'ts true about Polynesia and in Samoa you are not allowed to surf on Sunday but most surf camps factor that into their deals.
Not quite as strict yet in Tonga but as there is strong Christianity there err on the side of manners in your dress off the beach. Yep do your homework and learn a little lingo.Always good.
Aah about about Sammiji, yes it was hammering but disrespect was dribbled from both sides and all of pointless prejudices that were exposed and continually argued for.
Parody and irony required!!
The thread was definitely a sammij short of a picnic!
When I was I in Tonga it was also thought inapropriate for a bloke to not wear a shirt. This is also the case in certian parts of Indonesia where you will be often treated in accordance to your attire ie decent shirt pants and foot wear, not to mention behavior.
This can all depend on where you are at the time obviously. If you want respect try and look respectable it can make a world of difference in some places.
don't see anything wrong with girls in bikinis. Why should tourists be forced to assimilate into a culture that is not theirs... they are tourists that is what they are. Tourism is vital to indo's economy so i think they should show tolerance and acceptance with issues like these.
Working on the Gold coast in the tourism industry, there is no reverse expectation for muslim tourists to take off their face masks for identification and security purposes. I think there is tolerance on both sides and this needs to continue into the future.
I disagree Ed. I do not think Indonesia needs to show tolerance by allowing people to disrespect their culture and religion. There is a difference between going against strong religious beliefs (taking off hijab for 'security' purposes, allowing people to disrespect their culture in their home lands) and being mildly inconvenienced by wearing a t shirt and longer shorts. Like being a guest in someones house you would probably just keep your shirt on if they preferred it that way. No one is asking tourists to become Muslims, Christians, Catholics.. whatever, it is simply a case of showing respect to the area you are visiting. If that seems too hard for some people to understand, I think they really need to ask themselves why they are traveling to these places in the first place.
My uncle (may he rest in peace) was in Changi during WWII, and worked on the Burma railway. He was always really negative towards Japanese and I could never work out why, until I read the stories about what the Japs did to the Allied troops during that time - disgraceful. Respect works both ways evo62, but I agree with your sentiments - "the sins of the fathers shouldn't have to borne by their sons". Best if those times are never repeated again, by any culture.
Can i ask why locals are offended by bikinis?
If its a semi-legit reason than i may be inclined to abide by it. If its sum means of controlling women in a suppressing way then f@ck that!
Fair?
Just an article for your perusal peoples... It may interest you (particular the bikini shots...) Listed below is a quotation of the article in question...
"In an Islamic country, she’d likely be hung, beheaded, tortured or “honor†killed for shaming her uptight, sexually repressed, backward, stone age husband or father."
http://libertypundits.net/article/more-muslims-in-bikinis-please/
Wow, she is stunning... How much are they and where can you buy one...
I have a little money saved... I hope it's enough ;)
wax-on-danielson wrote:it's good if the girls wearing bikinis have massive cans and are super hot!
Very happy to see.
Maybe it's just me but most of the times I see a cop pull over a westerner on a scooter in Bali they are normally 3/4 naked.
I think we have had this conversation before, but its not just a muslim thing.
In many dominant Christian areas of Indo its viewed just as bad to wear bikinis or show to much flesh.
But then on the flip side in some village areas you can often see people bathing even women in areas that are not that private outside wash areas or rivers.
And yes to the OP it is disrespectful and not really a good idea as could bring unwanted attention.
hello swellnet,
I just want to ask what people think about dressing appropriately in Indonesia.
I have beeen to Indonesia quite a few times and for me whenever I see girls surfing in bikinis or girlfriends sunbathing on the beach I think they look so out of place. Now I am not talking about Bali, for better or worse anything goes in Bali, but you dont have to go far form Bali and the Indonesian culture changes dramatically.
Travelling the other Islands, often there is girls surfing or sunbathing wearing bikinis in areas that are strongly Islamic. I find this behaviour quite disrespectful and arrogant. It is just my opinion, and for the record I am not Islamic, I am just wondering how others feel.