McCoy Four Fins? NOT!
Sept 6th, MA wrote "Fanning's and Parko's boards were designed as four fins"
FOUR fins, NO.....WRONG...incorrect
Now i havent seen Parkos board so i wont comment on his,HOWEVER!
I have seen Mick's and its designed as a MULTI FIN, ie a board designed to surf as a THRUSTER or fourfin with nubster stabiliser in the centre plugs or as a stand alone QUAD!
PLEASE PLEASE Mr Marc...get your facts correct before you post !
Mick's board is a Ducksguts roundedpin model that hes been testing and will be available soon.At present only the Ducksguts rounded squaretail is available.
From the man himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-5AhAnX200&feature=plcp
Seems this quad thing is working out well for old man McCoy ;). He should take it further.
By: "morgan_the_moon"
Looks like he took my advice.
With all due respect to Geoff McCoy, I wish he'd use his video talents for posting one of the boards in action, by an endorsed McCoy rider - someone with the skills to do the Zot justice.
I like the Zot, and I used it solidly for 12 months, before trying another design. By adding 4 fins I am in no way knocking the design, just seeing how one of MY favourite boards goes as a quad.
Quadzilla, you've just proved a point as to why not to stuff around with Geoff's designs. Regardless of whether Marc said Parko and Mick's boards were designed for four fins or five fins doesn't really matter, they were shaped to work that way - Geoff's boards aren't made to work as quads. They are singles or thrusters. The end. They don't have multiple set-ups. And to make matters worse, the ol five fin set-up is a myth and a marketing device. Some boards work as quads, others as thrusters, rarely as both for mere mortals.
bman,
Please have a close look at the Utube footage that GM has posted, he refers to his designs as singlefins and MULTIfins.
Any board designed as a multi fin will work with 2 or 3 or 4 fins(if they are placed in the correct positions)and as Ke11y proved to the world in the Fiji final 5 fins!
ive experimented with 12 different mcoys,all have proved better than the standard issue.
my 7/0 is the first with the option of comparing a thruster with a quad, so after a month of riding it as a thruster(150ish waves) i set it up as a quad(almost 4 months now & probably 500ish waves)My estimate is its at least 10% faster than a thruster(which are miles ahead of any mcoy single) and it makes sections that my singles dont and my thrusters might.
all my comments are from direct practical experience, How many waves have you surfed with a quad Mccoy?
Hi Morg,
Yeah I understand and have discussed it at length with Geoff. However, from Geoff's point, he has discovered something unique in the relationship between object (surfboard) and energy (wave) and wants only to pursue that line religiously. Doing so he wipes out a lot of areas others would like to dabble in. They are areas he doesn't have interest in and lucky enough for him, because of who he is in surfing, he has enough interest from surfers to continually put food on his table.
I reckon if most anyone else making boards tried it they would probably go hungry a few nights of the week.
Is he right to follow that principle to tightly? Who's to say really, but let's see what father time says about Geoff McCoy in the years, decades and centuries to come. And remember, every board designed for accessing the full face of a wave, owes its origins to Geoff McCoy. That's why Simon defers the designing inspiration behind his thruster to Geoff.
Once upon a time some guy had the idea the earth wasn't flat...
He pursued that idea and here we are today because he did....
But for now some of us are left wishing he would take us somewhere else ..... at times, and as a friend of his, me included.
Cheers
M
http://www.griffinsurfboards.com/
bman, i suggest you read the riders reviews of modfish,4-5fin fish and 5fin shortboard
also some interesting stuff by the people who follow the BONZA trail, they have evolved to 5 fins
anyone who wants to look at taylor knox on a 5 fin ?
that surfing by taylor knox was fucking brilliant......can the knockers please point out where 5 fins create to much drag....will someone bonzer a mccoy ? soon.
http://bonzer5.com/boards/bonzer-mechanics/
OH, these guys have been refining this design since late 60s...originally as 3 thats now climbed to 5.
just look at the minimal drag theory!
anyone for GOLF balls?
http://3dfins.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&I...
&feature=youtube_gdata_player ...let's see what father time says about Geoff McCoy in the years, decades and centuries to come.
By: "marc atkinson"
There's no doubt to the impact Geoff's had on the current direction of surfing. From the plan shape of todays thrusters, through to the adoption of wide, thick boards for summer slop...
The impact of the Campbell brothers has only increased over the decades.... My take is that the Bonzer design is heavily dependant on concaves out the back though?
One aspect of multi-fins vs single fins that hasn't been discussed is the total surface area of the fins. One of the gull-wings probably doesn't have much less volume than 4 fins or even one 6.5" centre with 4 bonzer sides....
Wetted surface area, fin shape and angle of attack. All of these aspects don't seem to feature in Geoff's argument for some reason...
A dozen half inch fins will have less drag than a single 12in fin, all other design aspects equal.
Let's pretend, for argument's sake, that we are using the same size and shape fin: While there's little doubt that 4 x 4in fins will have more drag on a board pushed flat across a pool of water that the same board with 3 x 4in fins, but this is not a true reflection of what a well designed quad does.
As I mentioned a couple of pages back, I don't believe any board really is ever running flat across the water when up and on a wave. Paddling, maybe, but when surfing, no it's not.
YES, Moore you are correct
Using a flat water example to illustrate an object operating in constantly changing curved water is NONsense
the object is constantly having the weight distrubution changed, as well as accelerating and decelerating with the direction changes.even with paddling it would have to be DEAD STRAIGHT and with other waveriders constantly around, then it complicates the situation.
On the wave, the AOA constantly changes....the upright single becomes canted and toed, which according to GM cant(splay) and toe cause drag.and they do!
when a surfers weight is transfered to the inside rail during a turn the multifins cant and toe become upright and straight(side fin) at a certain point and the MF accelerates.if its a thruster then the stringer fin drags and if the MF has 2 side fins, theres a lot less drag and consequently more speed.
this is why 2 fins on the rail is FASTER
this isnt a theory by the way, just a practicle observation
Hi Moore,
Did you get the board? Look deeper into that thought you just expressed and let us not get sucked into Quad's capital letter inspired ignorance. Fins running deep in the water will build points of pressure and points of release...this we understand. While under pressure we call it drag, when not under pressure we call it release. Moment after moment this is occurring. All the ride the board and fins are in constant transition. In those modes of transition, which fin setup would offer the least resistance to going forward?
That is the point of Geoff's description. It's only a description to assist an inquiry.
So let's not get caught up in that description.
The origins of this thread were Geoff saying his boards were not designed as four fins and won't work as a four fin, specially the Zot. And they dont, as anyone who has the skill to push them hard off the bottom and into the pocket will note. Fact is they hold and won't break their line when asked. So it fucks up your timing through your turns. But if your just running lines you won't notice these issues.
If you've put four fins in a McCoy and you like it, then enjoy it. But its not what it's designed for. End of story.
There's an illusion on this thread that it's about knocking multi fins. Questions like, someone show me the drag. As Moore states, fins are all about drag and release. So of course someone could show you the drag...if you know where to look and what to look for.
There are statements in this thread by some suggesting they know more than Geoff McCoy about his surfboard designs... Obviously they are lifetime achievers in surfing themselves.
So who do you want to believe guys? You're free to choose.
Cheers
M.
The origins of this thread were Geoff saying his boards were not designed as four fins and won't work as a four fin, specially the Zot. And they dont, as anyone who has the skill to push them hard off the bottom and into the pocket will note. Fact is they hold and won't break their line when asked. So it fucks up your timing through your turns. But if your just running lines you won't notice these issues.
If you've put four fins in a McCoy and you like it, then enjoy it. But its not what it's designed for. End of story
By: "marc atkinson"
I'm the one with the 4 fin zot, and whilst I'm no hard-core charger, I'm not just running lines either. I've had a couple of single fin McCoys and like Geoff has said, it's all about the turns with these boards. So yeah, I can turn a board, and that's where I get my enjoyment from in surfing them.
Fact is the quad zot holds; fact is that with the right fins the quad zot WILL break their line when asked; Fact is, I've gone past the point where the quad zot will break it's line and it's just damn slippery. I'm now running a set that work for me and I'm enjoying them.
I may have started an FB post in a McCoy Nuggets group, but I haven't actively started a discussion on a public forum (this one), I haven't contributed to an article which calls anyone a 'bloody idiot', and I haven't created a video talking about 4 fin McCoys. All of this stuff is generated by Geoff McCoy and you!
Folks aren't saying they know more about Geoff's designs than Geoff, but they are questioning the dynamics of how a surfboard works. In a surfboard design forum it's welcome - you can always learn right!?
As for me, well I bought a couple of boards thinking they were mine to do with as I please. If that's not the case Geoff can buy them back, and I'll go put the money in another shapers hands, and I promise I won't ride another McCoy in my lifetime.
McCoys work as a quad. I'm sure if Geoff put his mind to it, he could make it work better. End of story.
i cant comment on a Quad Zot, because i havent ridden one.My Zot(is still a single)and has been ridden with 5 different fins and the worst its gone is with the GULLthingo.However, the GF goes ok with drivey side fins when i jump on a longboard(not often).
i will comment on how a thruster nugget goes thats been fitted with 5 Future boxes.
initially, i took a gamble as i only viewed the board online.So between winning the auction and delivery i was constantly wondering IF the boxes had been inserted in the correct positions.My motivation for buying it was simply the convenience of travel and i prefer Futures over FCS(i had 3 surftechs).
After a months testing as a thruster my conclusion was it goes like a McCoy nugget thruster,no better and no worse.GOOD boards imo!
So i set it up as a quad, from the very first wave i noticed MORE speed and everybody knows that quads draw longer lines so it suits a couple of pointbreaks i frequent.
its been tested in knee to overhead waves,both on beaches and points.
no lockups, lockdowns, lockouts but plenty of locked ins
NO issues and its been pushed by a better than GOOD surfer
its by far the best sensation ive felt from a GM hull
quad up and fly FASTER!
Hey Marc,
Still hoping to get the board, just need to find some cash that I put in a safe place (and subsequently forgot where!)
It's quite easy to get het up about what is 'right' or 'wrong' about design theory and crew are quick to get on the defensive. It challenges our beliefs and I think it's a positive thing that folk are willing to think about how and why certain things happen under their feet rather than just blindly swallow any old marketing tripe from the big companies... ....even if we don't agree!
I'm more than happy to discuss different points of view and while Geoff comes over as a bit cantankerous on occasion, he seems like a bloke who would rather have people asking questions than just swallowing what they are fed!
I think one answer may be that there is no right or wrong, but what is useful is finding out what works for you
Geez Morg I got up your nose then, hey....
Firstly there was no personal reference to you or your Zot. You took it personally by choice. Secondly, as stated, If you've done it and enjoy it, all the best to you.
I don't know anything about the videos you refer to, so you've lost me on that, can't comment. Can't say anyone was called any type of idiot either... I did use the word ignorant, and that word described accurately the point I was making.
But as I said I got up your nose there hey.
But the fact is my life is people asking me about surfboards 24/7 and has been for decades. And a lot of it about McCoy. That's from decades of connection with McCoy.
My statements, though they may irritate you and others, are truth. You like your four fin adaption to your Zot. Great, I've already stated enjoy what you like. But to the hundreds of guys asking me direct or indirectly by reading this thread wondering, I can only repeat what is fact: It's not what the boards are designed for.
So for all the guys thinking of doing it, some might try because of your input, and some might pull back on the idea because of my input. You feel its a great move, others I know have forked out their bucks only to regret it and their boards end up on eBay. The opening point to this thread was, the cost of a conversion ain't cheap and may not give you the results you're expecting. And the reason given for that possibility was that it's not what the boards were designed for. And nothing's changed.
Cheers
M.
PS: And Morg, let's not forget that a bunch of pages back it was stated that many issues regarding four fin adaptations to McCoy's may be somewhat overcome by doing exactly what you have done and experimenting with fins... but it does all add up dollar wise. Which I guess you could argue is a good investment, but it's my experience you're in the minority in this case not the majority.
Cheers Moore,
Hope we meet someday when you're over here. When you get here check in with Swellnet to track me down. We can go surf up the mid-North Coast where I've got a bit of dirt. Stay as my guest a while.
I reckon that last post of yours says it all, nothin more to add. It's so on it, that for me it's the last say on the matter.
M.
Marc, that's a really generous offer and gives me some extra impetus to get back over there!
Thanks again for the advice
I'm off to the UK Fish Fry/AB3 this weekend. There will be everything under the sun there; twins, quads, singles, finless, asymmetrics and handplanes. Hopefully there will also be a McCoy or two
15 years ago, it would never have happened. These times are good times!
Off topic-I'm at the library and I just spotted Marc in the book Surfing-The Fundamentals.Store is stocked,plenty of McCoys in there.
mc coy 7'2 nuggett for sale on gumtree central coast $350.
I'm not being snotty or precious here but I reckon that if you honestly think that you know enough to turn a McCoy single or thruster into a quad, it's time to get the planer out. Take your McCoy, measure it up thoroughly, have a go at copying the shape yourself (on a custom rockered blank of your own choosing), glass it, filler coat it, put you plugs in where you think, sand it and off you go. It may or may not be what you want to surf, but you'll have had fun making it, might have learned something along the way, and all your materials will have cost no more than the earlier quoted $260 fee for said plugging (providing you do own the necessary tools). Oh and while you're at it make sure you put your own logo on it, it is now in some sense your design.
Yes,thats possible,however,in a media interview GM states that he will give anyone 100k if they can reproduce his design accurately.No shaper has claimed the cash at this stage,so if the pro shapers aren't attempting it how much chance has a backyarder?
Making a board is a major operation, tools/materials/venue and body protection add up,so its probably just as economical to buy 2nd hand and install plugs & that way u get a REAL mCoy shape with a more efficient fin system.
$$$$$ 260 is way off the Marc, but the cheapest way is DIY with the plugs and fins from Ebay about $35-45 all up.the single mCoys are easiest as u don't have to grind the glassed on fins from the board, just laminiate some patches of 4oz, then holesaw the plug holes and glass them in.So only 1 tool for that job.Thruster mCoys need the back fin grinded off, the side fins can stay on & then the same procedure as a single.
i bought my 7/0 with 5 futures boxes that were inserted @ chaos on sydnee nthside .the previous owner told me he was charged $100 fr that job.
Gidday, its gonna be a mission stuffing around with his tails. The curves/dome
will be changed dramatically. The whole thing is tied together. So will the weight. Stunet or someone should get Geoff to comment, it will be entertaining!
The curves are not altered at all,apart from the rovings that hold the trail fin of a thruster on.the weight of the the plugs and pads to sink them is extremely minor and if foam filled fins are used their buoyancy more than counteracts any minor weight gain.mCoys benefit from being WEIGHTY, the momentum which the weight provides enhances the wave riding sensation in all sizes and power increments
Gidday quadzilla, I rode them for years, and rode one of his very first nuggets. Unless you have plugs with a curved surface it affects the curve, in all directions. He is very, fastidiously particular, which is why he is confident that they can't be duplicated. You, through your back foot supply the weight. He always wanted to make mine lighter, but I hated breaking them, so would beg him to glass them up. The light ones went insane, but, blacks is really hard on light boards.
Hi UL,have a very close look at the domed bottom, the curves are VERY slight.....so the distance across a futures box or a fcs plug isn't going to interfere with the way the bottom holds onto a wave,but by providing more reaction from quads the whole nugget experience goes UP to a new level.
The surftech constructed mCoys use futures, which are a better system than FCS in my opinion AND the 3 STs ive owned performed very closely to the glass ones .Just don't ride them in strong offshores.
http://www.my-surfboard.de/mccoy-surfboards.php
http://surfboardagency.com/mccoy-all-round-nugget/
apparently this range of epoxy McCoys are replacing the surftechs ????
so its easier to QUAD up......just add 2 trail plugs/boxes....
I've been really happy with one of Marc's passed on McCoy single fins. A 6'9" Double Ender, finer rails and less width / volume than the nuggets I've had before. And a bit more pin shaped in the tail. The single fin works well on this design. My experience is that the board needs to be designed for the fins. I have Murray Bourton quads which I love and a great Psilaksis thruster, but for me the Psilaksis doesn't feel right as a quad and the Bourton doesn't feel right as a thruster. As Murray Bourton and Simon Anderson have said in articles - designing a board that works as a thruster and a quad is extremely hard, despite the fashion for 5 fin plugs. Looking forward to getting my McCoy Double Ender into some big juice later this year.
that DE planshape is classic,i had one in late60s....which fin are you using?
That first photo Moore posted is a good friend of mine, he shreds on his mccoys and is easily one of the most stylish surfers I know, absolutely shreds. Guys his age watch him surf and ask what he's riding.. 20 yr old kids watch him and comment how well he surfs. Has a great understanding of how his boards work.
He writes the odd blog here and there, and have a look at his Instagram account if that's your thing, there's a lot of references to style and design. Lyttlestreet is his insty name and his blog is http://lyttlestreet.wordpress.com/
mCoy is retiring sometime this year, if anyone wants a custom,order soon
Cheyne commented on FB recently that Nuggets are designed to ride with the weight forward on the front foot.
Re. Gull Wings, we've been making these:
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0612/3841/products/Warp-Drive-gull-wing...
:)
:)
Hey Pan Doblao are you Garry Weed?
Hmm I think Kerry 1 has changed shapers
:)
More appropriate to post on April first Pan,you may get someone gullible enough to believe your BS
:)
:)
I've handled a McCoy Gull wing it had a very poor foil, typical of the lower end and one which I describe as agricultural.
You McCoy clones are like Moonies, but no brain no pain I suppose.
Pan Doblao wrote:Hello Quadzilla. Hope you're doing well. Why don't you shoot me down using specific points, and I'll crush anything you have to say scientifically.
Fricking Lol... 'fools rush in' etc... you don't have a snowball's chance of crushing anyone with an IQ over 80 in my estimation.
Actually though I agree with much of what you say, but some of it it is over the top stupid.
:)
So I've just been in contact with Geoff McCoy and he's bummed out to discover guys are playing around with his designs by changing the fin configuration to four fins etc. In Geoff's own words, "If they worked better I would make them but they don't."
I've worked closely with Geoff for different periods of my life since 1971 and he is without doubt the most gifted and knowledgeable board designer I've personally met and/or worked with, yet he also takes the prize for the least understood by the industry he help to build in Australia.
History doesn't record Geoff McCoy in a good light; a man of vision and progressive thinking, he has instead often been portrayed in a less than glorifying light. Knowing him as I do, I have to admit often he is his own worst enemy when it comes to speaking to media and the industry and his sometimes abrupt and abrasive manner often comes back and bites him on the arse as he gets misunderstood and miss quoted etc. Yeah, we've all got our crosses to carry.
But let's get back to surfboard design.....
All you guys out there re-configuring your McCoy's with different fin set ups, do so not understanding the physics behind the design and therefore you're playing with matches and generally your pockets going to get burnt.... it's not cheap to change a board to a four fin just to find out it's not what you were expecting and hoping for. Then you gotta sell it on and the next guy also finds it's a dog and goes around telling everyone McCoy's are fucked boards etc...
Now maybe you can see why old man McCoy gets pissed off.
If you're into Geoff's boards - which is like being switched into an entirely different world of surfing, and let's face it unless you're in that world you don't get to understand the brilliant complexities of it - be careful what you think will work well with McCoy designs. Chances are it won't work as your hoping or as the media is telling you it will work. And the reason it won't is simple.... the board's not designed to work that way.
Now I know there's a whole world out there where you can do what ever you like with surfboards and get told you're improving the design, but that's not Geoff McCoy's world.
I hope I've saved a lot of you a heap of $$$ that you were about to spend ..... Now you can go take your girl out for a night on the town.
Cheers,
Marc