Vaccinate or not
AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:It was a simple question. Why can’t you answer it?
Guess what Burls, yes people who have been vaccinated can still catch whooping cough.
Also, the effectiveness of the vaccine declines rapidly after the first four years.
No one is putting forward a simple argument saying that it's perfect, although you seem to like simple arguments the other way.
Anyway, here's a graph of the effectiveness of pertussis vaccination and duration of immunity.
The related study from the Canadian Medical Journal Association found the following-"We observed high effectiveness of the pertussis vaccine within 3 years of vaccination, but with clear evidence of waning of immunity beyond 4 years and little-to-no protection beyond 7 years from last vaccination. The odds of pertussis increased by 27% each year that passed after receipt of an acellular vaccine. Individuals primed with acellular vaccine had a 2.2 times higher odds of disease than those primed with the previously used whole-cell vaccine."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5088088/#:~:text=Compared%20wit...(95%25%20CI%200%25
So the vaccine doesnt work?
AW my first born child is vaccine damaged. Her life is ruined. Her one life.
Richard Cheese wrote:AW my first born child is vaccine damaged. Her life is ruined. Her one life.
Richard Cheese. Hi mate.
I’m so sorry to hear your circumstances, I’m sure it can’t be easy.
Please excuse me if I’ve spoken out of line previously, I don’t think I have.
Very true of what you say. Her one life is ruined and inadvertently yours to some degree also.
Unfortunately, statistics highlight medical and pharmaceutical negligence is not a rare thing in todays society.
I once had some clients who had a son, severely intellectually handicapped after receiving an incorrect dosage of a vaccination.
The father commented to me on the first day after I’d witnessed what their daily life looked like, it wasn’t pleasant, that their lives were wrecked.
The sister of the son ultimately, by her own admission didn’t get the soft and tender parenting that she would’ve normally received due to the amount of time and effort gone into the boy. I did feel for her and the parents.
I was building an enormous deck at the time, some days I was almost in tears, witnessing the parents exhausting effort to manage their son.
Ultimately they had to get help, every few days a caring helper would arrive to assist.
Mate, I now fully understand your resistance to vaccination, it’s not until you know or witness peoples lives and how they are dramatically altered due to their child’s circumstances.
I wish, you, your daughter and your family all of the best wishes as the years pass by. Take care, Richard, we are always here for a chat, well, I am anyway. Merry Xmas . AW
Vaccine damage is real. Sorry to hear about your daughter RCheese.
One goo thing from Covid is that it's opened millions of peoples eyes to the corruption and lies of governments & big pharma.
Nor RFK & DJT will shake the fuck out of it. I can't wait.
Unvaccinated kids are perfectly healthy, If they were not they would be used as scapegoats across the entire world. Think about it
Sweden cancelling the whooping cough vaccine is interesting but not the full story. Turns out that they reinstated it as part of the childhood vaccination program in 1996 and it continues to this day. You can read about it in this paper that quantifies the declining incidence of pertussis following the reintroduction of the newer vaccine. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0264410X02007776
The plot showing declining immunity in Canada was interesting to see as well. A little reading further shows that it used a "test-negative" design in that analysis. The paper itself acknowledges that this design would "tend to underestimate vaccine effectiveness".
Here is a paper that reviews the test negative design and makes the point that: "If vaccination reduces disease severity in breakthrough infections, particular care must be taken in interpreting vaccine effectiveness estimates from test-negative design studies."
https://journals.lww.com/epidem/abstract/2020/01000/the_use_of_test_nega...
So I guess to answer the question that burleigh posed "So the vaccine doesnt work?" is not straightforward. Since plots like that don't show whether the symptoms associated with those positive tests are more or less severe.
It's a complicated field to understand, looking at a single statistic, graph, or table in isolation can lead to misinterpretations. Kind of like when someone who doesn't understand surfing looks at a surf report of 2 metre swell at 4 seconds and thinks it must be good because of the swell size.
burleigh wrote:AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:It was a simple question. Why can’t you answer it?
Guess what Burls, yes people who have been vaccinated can still catch whooping cough.
Also, the effectiveness of the vaccine declines rapidly after the first four years.
No one is putting forward a simple argument saying that it's perfect, although you seem to like simple arguments the other way.
Anyway, here's a graph of the effectiveness of pertussis vaccination and duration of immunity.
The related study from the Canadian Medical Journal Association found the following-"We observed high effectiveness of the pertussis vaccine within 3 years of vaccination, but with clear evidence of waning of immunity beyond 4 years and little-to-no protection beyond 7 years from last vaccination. The odds of pertussis increased by 27% each year that passed after receipt of an acellular vaccine. Individuals primed with acellular vaccine had a 2.2 times higher odds of disease than those primed with the previously used whole-cell vaccine."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5088088/#:~:text=Compared%20wit...(95%25%20CI%200%25
So the vaccine doesnt work?
What part of the words “high effectiveness” don’t you understand?
...
AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:It was a simple question. Why can’t you answer it?
Guess what Burls, yes people who have been vaccinated can still catch whooping cough.
Also, the effectiveness of the vaccine declines rapidly after the first four years.
No one is putting forward a simple argument saying that it's perfect, although you seem to like simple arguments the other way.
Anyway, here's a graph of the effectiveness of pertussis vaccination and duration of immunity.
The related study from the Canadian Medical Journal Association found the following-"We observed high effectiveness of the pertussis vaccine within 3 years of vaccination, but with clear evidence of waning of immunity beyond 4 years and little-to-no protection beyond 7 years from last vaccination. The odds of pertussis increased by 27% each year that passed after receipt of an acellular vaccine. Individuals primed with acellular vaccine had a 2.2 times higher odds of disease than those primed with the previously used whole-cell vaccine."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5088088/#:~:text=Compared%20wit...(95%25%20CI%200%25
So the vaccine doesnt work?
What part of the words “high effectiveness” don’t you understand?
Excuse me if i'm a little sceptical of your dodgy looking chart.
You want to discuss unvaccinated kids?
burleigh wrote:AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:It was a simple question. Why can’t you answer it?
Guess what Burls, yes people who have been vaccinated can still catch whooping cough.
Also, the effectiveness of the vaccine declines rapidly after the first four years.
No one is putting forward a simple argument saying that it's perfect, although you seem to like simple arguments the other way.
Anyway, here's a graph of the effectiveness of pertussis vaccination and duration of immunity.
The related study from the Canadian Medical Journal Association found the following-"We observed high effectiveness of the pertussis vaccine within 3 years of vaccination, but with clear evidence of waning of immunity beyond 4 years and little-to-no protection beyond 7 years from last vaccination. The odds of pertussis increased by 27% each year that passed after receipt of an acellular vaccine. Individuals primed with acellular vaccine had a 2.2 times higher odds of disease than those primed with the previously used whole-cell vaccine."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5088088/#:~:text=Compared%20wit...(95%25%20CI%200%25
So the vaccine doesnt work?
What part of the words “high effectiveness” don’t you understand?
Excuse me if i'm a little sceptical of your dodgy looking chart.
You want to discuss unvaccinated kids?
Bro, you literally never bring any hard contrary evidence to the table, just anecdotal codswallop, and piling the burden of proof onto other people, over and over.
Hiccups wrote:burleigh wrote:AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:It was a simple question. Why can’t you answer it?
Guess what Burls, yes people who have been vaccinated can still catch whooping cough.
Also, the effectiveness of the vaccine declines rapidly after the first four years.
No one is putting forward a simple argument saying that it's perfect, although you seem to like simple arguments the other way.
Anyway, here's a graph of the effectiveness of pertussis vaccination and duration of immunity.
The related study from the Canadian Medical Journal Association found the following-"We observed high effectiveness of the pertussis vaccine within 3 years of vaccination, but with clear evidence of waning of immunity beyond 4 years and little-to-no protection beyond 7 years from last vaccination. The odds of pertussis increased by 27% each year that passed after receipt of an acellular vaccine. Individuals primed with acellular vaccine had a 2.2 times higher odds of disease than those primed with the previously used whole-cell vaccine."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5088088/#:~:text=Compared%20wit...(95%25%20CI%200%25
So the vaccine doesnt work?
What part of the words “high effectiveness” don’t you understand?
Excuse me if i'm a little sceptical of your dodgy looking chart.
You want to discuss unvaccinated kids?
Bro, you literally never bring any hard contrary evidence to the table, just anecdotal codswallop, and piling the burden of proof onto other people, over and over.
So you don't want to discuss it either?
burleigh wrote:Hiccups wrote:burleigh wrote:AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:AndyM wrote:burleigh wrote:It was a simple question. Why can’t you answer it?
Guess what Burls, yes people who have been vaccinated can still catch whooping cough.
Also, the effectiveness of the vaccine declines rapidly after the first four years.
No one is putting forward a simple argument saying that it's perfect, although you seem to like simple arguments the other way.
Anyway, here's a graph of the effectiveness of pertussis vaccination and duration of immunity.
The related study from the Canadian Medical Journal Association found the following-"We observed high effectiveness of the pertussis vaccine within 3 years of vaccination, but with clear evidence of waning of immunity beyond 4 years and little-to-no protection beyond 7 years from last vaccination. The odds of pertussis increased by 27% each year that passed after receipt of an acellular vaccine. Individuals primed with acellular vaccine had a 2.2 times higher odds of disease than those primed with the previously used whole-cell vaccine."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5088088/#:~:text=Compared%20wit...(95%25%20CI%200%25
So the vaccine doesnt work?
What part of the words “high effectiveness” don’t you understand?
Excuse me if i'm a little sceptical of your dodgy looking chart.
You want to discuss unvaccinated kids?
Bro, you literally never bring any hard contrary evidence to the table, just anecdotal codswallop, and piling the burden of proof onto other people, over and over.
So you don't want to discuss it either?
I rest my case. Ciao!
Like RFK, Burls is not someone to be taken seriously regarding these matters.
AndyM wrote:Like RFK, Burls is not someone to be taken seriously regarding these matters.
oh i'm very serious. You and hiccup turn to water when asked about the health of unvaccinated kids. No dodgy charts will help you
Do they die younger? No
Are the paediatric hospitals full of them? No
Do they have Autism? No
Do you loose government benefits that parents rely so heavily on? Yes
Black and white burls scoffs at 21st. century science but believes every word from an unqualified conspiracy theorist who says half his brain was eaten by a parasitic worm.
If you offered burls a shovel and a fork and asked him to take his pick, he would disappear up his own arsehole.
old-dog wrote:Black and white burls scoffs at 21st. century science but believes every word from an unqualified conspiracy theorist who says half his brain was eaten by a parasitic worm.
If you offered burls a shovel and a fork and asked him to take his pick, he would disappear up his own arsehole.
It's $cience Champ. $cience
If crew are looking for a smoking gun
NSW is the epicentre of World Whooping Cough.
Crew may recall [L] Premier Gladys was the original Vax Nazi (All conveniently forget)
Gladys claimed 1 dose was mRNA Nectar of the Godz granted immunity from infection.
Anyhow...only Gladys did the following & may lend reason as to why NSW is Whooping Cough Capital.
What did she do tbb...
Well the last thing the Evil Queen did was Ban school Vax Program & flog it off to Chem' Warehouse!
So...none recall this...Nope! WTF?
Aug 2021 [L] NSW Premier's Mass Jab Teenage Rampage in Colosseums
https://thepulse.org.au/2021/08/07/first-look-inside-qudos-bank-arena-va...
Aug 2021 [L] Premier Mandates Teacher Vax or be hung in the Town Square & yer children Stoned!
https://www.theeducatoronline.com/k12/news/nsw-announces-mandatory-covid...
Sept 2021 [L] Premier Gladys postponed School's Routine Whooping Cough Immunization Program.
Important Message from yer Premier : [ This is NOT about Covid-19 Vaccines ] So don't get any ideas!
Parents : "Sounds like the Evil Premier is Digitizing our Kids!"
School Kid : "Premier said that our Routine School Vax will be set back at least 10 years..that's all!"
https://lurnea-h.schools.nsw.gov.au/news/2021/9/year-7-vaccination-updat...
Oct 2021 [L] NSW Premier Resigned to the fact she still has crumpled Knickers in her purse.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/01/nsw-premier-glady...
Oct Spells the end of Oz 1st & then still very much undisputed #1 Vax Nazi.
But surely the new incoming NSW Premier reinstalled the 2021 Routine School Vax...(err Nope!)
Sorry folks...ain't none of that School Vax caper until some time in 2022...
https://www.trinity.nsw.edu.au/2021/11/12/postponement-of-routine-school...
Oct 2021 > May 2022 No Boostrix Vaxing took place (Longest Anti Vax spell in NSW Education)
NSW Cult Guru Dom never added a dash of Dr Evil's Boostrix to his cups of Tuckshop Cordial.
So...please do tell tbb...What the fuck happened next...
Nah...crew don't wanna know...
This had better be Gold Standard...tbb...or else...Gulp!
Ok! The Cult Leader banned School Vax & said if Kidz wanna shoot up they gotta use Injecting Rooms.
[Factcheck] 6 May 2022 NSW Govt sold out to Chem Warehouse Schoolies Injecting Rooms...
https://www.seslhd.health.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/groups/Public_H...
C'mon tbb yer shittin' us..
Nice Cult Leader like Dom wouldn't sell out Institutionalized School Vax Program to Chem Warehouse.
Well he sure as fuck did...
He directed all Centrelink Mums to Chem Warehouse to pick up their Dole Cheques. (No shit!)
Official Chem' Warehouse JAB4FTB...[L] Schoolies Vax Rort Policy...Say Wot...
Exactly..in 6 months NSW [L] Schoolies Vax Colosseum Bouts to Chem Warehouse injecting rooms.
https://www.psa.org.au/nsw-pharmacists-now-eligible-to-vaccinate-childre...
Holy fuckin' shit tbb...is that some weird-arse twisted fucked up shit...just as tbb thought...Wild huh!
This is where tbb says it's only the beginning of the end of Vax ...d..d..don't you worry 'bout that...
Cult leader DOM swore to fuck this School Vax evil right off...
Start of 2023 School Year...he says NSW kids gotta sign to US score their Routine JAB4FTB online...
Yuppies / foreign Kids Subscribe as US Robot Kidz to sponge Aussie Kids Dole JAB4FTB.
Ok...Smarties now go back and read What Parents said about Digitizing Oz kidz for [L] US ai JAB4FTB
NSW [L] Mandated for every Chemist to plunder School Kidz Vax Records + Hit on Kids to Vax or Die.
[L] Chem Warehouse : "Hey Kid...Ya gotta come in now for yer booster...or yer mum loses yer Dole."
We just deducted $50 JAB4FTB Admin Fee off yer ai Schoolie's Drug Injecting Room account
Endangered Weet-Bix Gromz now gotta request Oz Paper Boostrix Consent Form from the Tuck Shop.
https://www.seslhd.health.nsw.gov.au/services-clinics/directory/public-h...
But watch closely as JAB4FTB switches from Mandatory Year 7 > Mass Migration All Ages Boostrix.
Meaning once mandated Y7 JAB4FTB is now a Chem Warehouse Online entry Jab for O/S Schoolies!
[Factcheck] Chem Warehouse auto deduct Admin/assessment fee off yer Free Govt FTB Jab Payment.
All NSW Students must Provide US Subscribed Chem Warehouse ai Vax Club Card upon enrollment.
https://www.seslhd.health.nsw.gov.au/services-clinics/directory/public-h...
NSW Election (Changes?)
*Online Consent has changed...
[L] [ All Ages ] Boostrix > Reverting back to ALP [ Year 7 ] Boostrix
ALP do offer a Stop Gap (Catch Up @ School Clinic)
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/immunisation/Pages/schoolvaccination.aspx
There seems to be fee for Parents delaying Vax by Age...
ALP will likewise refer them to Chem Warehouse for a Vax Fee
There is one unusual mandate that [L] + ALP agree on...
Distant / Home school students are prohibited from attending school Vax Program.
These outliers must abide by Chemist fees to score any JAB4FTB payments / enrolments.
Meaning a lot of Anti VAX crew will enrol kids at Grade 12 for UNI places...
So now they gotta get Chem Warehouse Vax Club Card to win a Uni spot...thems the breaks.
Summary : Both NSW Govts Vax Automation plays down & penalizes Boostrix Compliance.
In theory it seems fine but it drives a further US 3rd Party Digitized Divide upon Anti Vax.
NSW govts drive a further wedge thru selling out kids ai Health records to Big Pharma Yanks.
Ain't no coming back from selling out Oz Kidz ai JAB4FTB > Big Pharma / Silicone 6 Tick of Approval.
Parents won't stand for Mandated Digitized Chem Warehouse Tick 4 me FTB...
Govt are Making enemies of all innocent Vax compliant Families...Take control or watch it slide!
Ask: How the fuck does Govt ask Chem Warehouse for Vax Data & return Kidz My Health records?
Not happening Jan...NSW Govt got themselves to blame for Whooping Cough Heaven.
Lets vaccinate kids for the alphabet of viruses but give them maccas and a coke for dinner, then some ice cream for a treat.
Sounds like an Old-Flog cocktail
@ burls, your idol Trump has sure been giving Maccas plenty of free ads. and RFK got sprung throwing some down.
I prefer Hungry Jacks, the Whoppers are bigger than Big Macs, large fries and wash it down with a crate of Cokes or a mega choc shake. Only about 5000 kilojoules.
old-dog wrote:@ burls, your idol Trump has sure been giving Maccas plenty of free ads. and RFK got sprung throwing some down.
I prefer Hungry Jacks, the Whoppers are bigger than Big Macs, large fries and wash it down with a crate of Cokes or a mega choc shake. Only about 5000 kilojoules.
But at least you're 5 x vaccinated for Covid. That will keep you safe.
Numbers, numbnuts.
https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality
blackers wrote:Numbers, numbnuts.
https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality
Are you really trying to say that Childhood vaccination has done this?
Haha, you’re such a numpty!
It’s science champ, science.
If you had your way and abandoned science, we’d be back to a childhood mortality rate of 40%+.
AndyM wrote:Haha, you’re such a numpty!
It’s science champ, science.
If you had your way and abandoned science, we’d be back to a childhood mortality rate of 40%+.
No, you support $cience. Big difference. Want to see a chart of adhd and autism?
Back away from the rabbit hole Burls.
It's clear from the historical data that child mortality rates began to decline significantly long before vaccines became widespread.
In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, advancements in public health, like better sanitation, medical and hospital technology, clean water supplies, and improved nutrition, etc, all played crucial roles. These improvements alone also had a profound impact on reducing deaths from infectious diseases.
Vaccines have been a pivotal part of modern medicine, and their role in disease eradication and control cannot be understated. But to attribute the bulk of the decline in child mortality to vaccines alone overlooks the multifaceted nature of public health and lifestyle improvements. One must recognise the synergy of various health and sanitation interventions, economic and social reforms, and educational advancements that have all contributed to this outcome.
But hey, keep reducing and simplifying the debate to a black-and-white vax vs anti-vax shit fight.
Continued from NSW 2024 Teenage Rampage Whooping Cough Epicentre
Oz Teen Vax Rate Dropping
https://ncirs.org.au/vaccination-rates-among-australian-teens-are-droppi...
NSW Youth / Teens 25k / 45k Oz Cases = WR Epicentre of Whooping Cough
Today : Thanx again to Dennis (Scroll down to Pertussis)
https://aus.social/@DenisCOVIDinfoguy
NSW Sept 2021 Postpone (dTpa Boostrix-Whooping Cough Vax) until May 2022
NSW Mandate Covid Vax > May 2022 Sold out Online Chemist -School Vax switch.
NSW Data shows responding massive decline in Year 7 dTpa / All Routine Vax
NSW Liberals Sold out Routine School Vax & Parents ran a mile = WR Whooping Cough!
NSW....2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 [P]NSW Data > *Possible 2023 Catch up doses?
Oz Average dTpa.............87.3% 86.9% 85.5% (From above arrticle)
dTpa 85%...84%...81%...81%..*71%...n/a
gHPV 82%..81%...77%...72%..*61%
bHPV 80%..79%...76%...71%..*58%
(Credit : Data link below...)
Depending on 2023 NSW Chem Warehouse clocking an extra 10% dTpa
Checking that NSW Teen Boys are likely the least Whooping Cough Vaxed in Oz.
[L] NSW dTpa 2022 drop may expose why NSW is World Teen Whooping Cough Epicentre
Just saying if it is a lack of Vax and / or Mass NSW School mRNA Vax mutation ...then...
NSW Libs mandatory switch to School Covid Vax > Online Routine Vax Chem' Warehouse sellout fuelled it!
No NSW lad is gonna be seen Jabbing in a Chemist...What'dya reckon...FFS!
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/immunisation/Documents/2022-annual-coverag...
burleigh wrote:blackers wrote:Numbers, numbnuts.
https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortalityAre you really trying to say that Childhood vaccination has done this?
I really can't be bothered as I have seen how you roll, but we can play the game your way. You prove that they have had no effect on the data shown in that graph. Otherwise, keep living your good life and hope that those around you have vaccinated their kids so yours dont suffer. It's not their fault you are a maroon.
Ciao.
Chelsea L wrote:It's clear from the historical data that child mortality rates began to decline significantly long before vaccines became widespread.
In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, advancements in public health, like better sanitation, medical and hospital technology, clean water supplies, and improved nutrition, etc, all played crucial roles. These improvements alone also had a profound impact on reducing deaths from infectious diseases.
Vaccines have been a pivotal part of modern medicine, and their role in disease eradication and control cannot be understated. But to attribute the bulk of the decline in child mortality to vaccines alone overlooks the multifaceted nature of public health and lifestyle improvements. One must recognise the synergy of various health and sanitation interventions, economic and social reforms, and educational advancements that have all contributed to this outcome.
But hey, keep reducing and simplifying the debate to a black-and-white vax vs anti-vax shit fight.
“to attribute the bulk of the decline in child mortality to vaccines alone”
Who said that?
Didn't you just?
In response to burleigh's
>Are you really trying to say that Childhood vaccination has done this?
didn't you just say
>It’s science champ, science.
>If you had your way and abandoned science, we’d be back to a childhood mortality rate of 40%+.
But the average rate was 48% previously. So are you not attributing nearly all of the decline to vaccines?
I’ll back science every day of the week, to date it’s not failed me yet in the areas of most interest to me, plants and birds and all other biological entities.
The very essence of science as we know it today is about disproving the ‘null hypothesis’.
From all of my own personal studies and research, reading of papers and reviews , work by most scientists is credible, always on going as more and more evidence comes to light through, in particular at the DNA level .
Of course there will always be rogues, just like in all other vocational areas of life.
If I had the choice to be vaccinated against or not vaccinated at all, I know which I’d choose. AW
Everything that I’ve experienced in my life has given me nothing but faith in science.
From the engineers and geologists in underground mining, to using electromagnetic fields for downhole surveys in exploration mining and also the geologists and environmental scientists that I used to work with when we were on Fraser Island mapping sand dune building sequences by means of thermoluminescence dating, the science was rock solid, beyond question.
And medically, the science behind my microsurgery and dealing with liver issues was unimpeachable.
Rejecting science, medical and otherwise, is incredibly ignorant and regressive.
AndyM wrote:Everything that I’ve experienced in my life has given me nothing but faith in science.
From the engineers and geologists in underground mining, to using electromagnetic fields for downhole surveys in exploration mining and also the geologists and environmental scientists that I used to work with when we were on Fraser Island mapping sand dune building sequences by means of thermoluminescence dating, the science was rock solid, beyond question.
And medically, the science behind my microsurgery and dealing with liver issues was unimpeachable.
Rejecting science, medical and otherwise, is incredibly ignorant and regressive.
Big differences from the Science you are referring to compared the vaccine $cience used for Covid for example.
Don't get them confused otherwise you'll look like a fool.
Science is a process for producing knowledge.
You still don’t seem to be able to separate science and politics.
AndyM wrote:Science is a process for producing knowledge.
You still don’t seem to be able to separate science and politics.
If only it was.
Science and politics are intertwined like a dirty dreadlock.
Sweet, let’s throw the baby out with the bathwater, no harm in that.
Saving the baby from big pharma predators. Not harmless bath water
That ideology certainly didn’t save those 80 small kids in Samoa.
You might need to reassess your logic.
AndyM wrote:Everything that I’ve experienced in my life has given me nothing but faith in science.
From the engineers and geologists in underground mining, to using electromagnetic fields for downhole surveys in exploration mining and also the geologists and environmental scientists that I used to work with when we were on Fraser Island mapping sand dune building sequences by means of thermoluminescence dating, the science was rock solid, beyond question.
And medically, the science behind my microsurgery and dealing with liver issues was unimpeachable.
Rejecting science, medical and otherwise, is incredibly ignorant and regressive.
Mindlessly accepting and not questioning and testing science is very anti science isn’t it?
Micro surgery, never would have been put through scientific process and constantly improved because the original science was just accepted on face value. Or maybe the other thing.
tots.. I tested the theory that saturn has around 150 moons. Set up my telescope in my backyard over several weeks, and can accurately report that it has none. And it has a single blurry, blue-ish ring..
soggydog wrote:AndyM wrote:Everything that I’ve experienced in my life has given me nothing but faith in science.
From the engineers and geologists in underground mining, to using electromagnetic fields for downhole surveys in exploration mining and also the geologists and environmental scientists that I used to work with when we were on Fraser Island mapping sand dune building sequences by means of thermoluminescence dating, the science was rock solid, beyond question.
And medically, the science behind my microsurgery and dealing with liver issues was unimpeachable.
Rejecting science, medical and otherwise, is incredibly ignorant and regressive.Mindlessly accepting and not questioning and testing science is very anti science isn’t it?
Micro surgery, never would have been put through scientific process and constantly improved because the original science was just accepted on face value. Or maybe the other thing.
Spot on @soggy.
I agree with Burlz on this one.
Science should be questioned. The stuff i'm studying at the moment has a deep scientific element to it and to be honest, you can't help but question alot of hypothesis' and theories. It's easy to verify something as a fact, even when the statistics are only marginally in its favour.
Throughout covid the whole issue was always about large pharmaceutical companies using 'in house' science to flood the world and with their vaccines, hence lining their own pockets. Huge companies that had already been proven to have taken advantage of people in the past and had been found guilty in huge criminal cases .
Science in general is pretty reliable but using politics to bend science to your will (like rolling out a vaccine that had not been put through rigourous testing on it's effects) is about as anti science as you can get.
And this is the science we were hounded for not subscribing to, ...by the likes of chaps like Andy M. etc.
That was very well said southernraw.
“Trust the experts” is not a feature of science; it’s the opposite of science.
Science demands continual skepticism and critique, not unquestioned faith in top down authority.
And science is democratic: it’s open and accessible to, and within reach of, anyone willing to learn.
Science is not the exclusive knowledge of a privileged few who lay down rules we must all obey.
Science is not dogma.
“Mindlessly accepting and not questioning and testing science”
Jeez you guys talk shit.
Do you think I’m not aware of how it works?
Cheers @ChelseaL and right back atchya.
Andy M i am aware you know how the academic system works very well.
But the way you wrote most of us off who thought different to you is also a verifiable fact. Just stating it as it is.
Chelsea L wrote:That was very well said southernraw.
“Trust the experts” is not a feature of science; it’s the opposite of science.
Science demands continual skepticism and critique, not unquestioned faith in top down authority.
And science is democratic: it’s open and accessible to, and within reach of, anyone willing to learn.
Science is not the exclusive knowledge of a privileged few who lay down rules we must all obey.
Science is not dogma.
I think the most important thing is to look at who or what group etc is questioning the established science.
If 10% of the scientific community in a certain field are going, look this doesn't seem correct, here's an alternative view, then yeah okay there is merit.
But if those questioning things dont have any qualifications or experience to question things then their questioning of things is kind of worthless and doesn't hold much weight.
The problem these days is science can be influenced by money, government's & politics, so things aren't always so black and white.
soggydog wrote:AndyM wrote:Everything that I’ve experienced in my life has given me nothing but faith in science.
From the engineers and geologists in underground mining, to using electromagnetic fields for downhole surveys in exploration mining and also the geologists and environmental scientists that I used to work with when we were on Fraser Island mapping sand dune building sequences by means of thermoluminescence dating, the science was rock solid, beyond question.
And medically, the science behind my microsurgery and dealing with liver issues was unimpeachable.
Rejecting science, medical and otherwise, is incredibly ignorant and regressive.Mindlessly accepting and not questioning and testing science is very anti science isn’t it?
Micro surgery, never would have been put through scientific process and constantly improved because the original science was just accepted on face value. Or maybe the other thing.
Soggydog. Evening mate. Hope ya well.
Good discussion by all. Here’s my two bobs worth.
Original science is exactly that, it doesn’t hang around for very long, in essence we don’t really have static science, it doesn’t sit around in a lab or a cupboard.
It’s constantly being questioned ( which is the game) by others who are interested, because they, may possibly know or can offer something better to the original theory or a motion towards a greater understanding.
It’s how our brain works, we are curious beings, with enquiring minds.
Don’t we all want to know where we came from, how did we get here, what are the earliest forms of life.
Science transcends many fields as we all know, not just basic biology and evolutionary processes, which reminds me, never ceases.
Genes are the most powerful units on earth today.
Sometimes we need to look to the sky and consider the bags of stardust that started us all, because after all we should constantly remind ourselves we are animals and nothing more. AW
Edit. The other day I mentioned, entropy, the part of everyday life we don’t really see or stop to observe.
Entropy as a process highlights the one thing that’s constant. We are heading in one direction and one direction only, nothing stands still, it doesn’t go backwards and then forwards, it’s always going forward. This is how time works.
Why am I saying this ?
Time never stands still. Example, I paint a weatherboard house, I leave it unoccupied in a dry warm or cold wet geographic location.
What happens ? Overtime, it fades, decays and decades or centuries pass and it’s gone altogether, without any human intervention.
Science is similar, we are always trying to find the precise, accurate processes, then someone else starts it all going and goes forth, just like entropy.
Nice words AW.
Lot's of science is static though, like we know the world is round and even without going to space we can prove its round with science.
This is established science that will never change no matter how many flat earther's disagree.
indo-dreaming wrote:Lot's of science is static though, like we know the world is round and even without going to space we can prove its round with science.
This is established science that will never change no matter how many flat earther's disagree.
Indo. Hi fella , hope ya well .It’s not round at all. It’s spherical.
Earth doesn’t exist in a static environment. How can it ?
Its orbit constantly changes, revisiting familiar orbital trajectories all on an elliptic plane.
It can’t be static, gravitational and magnetic fields interact with its orbit.
Time and space alters Earth position.
It’s certainly not static. It may be from a human perspective, but cosmologically it’s not. AW
southernraw wrote:Nice words AW.
Southernraw. Hi mate. What’s news ?
How’s things at your end. Getting a wave and a rest from study etc. AW
Alll well here thanks AW. Plenty of waves...as you know rarely ever goes flat around here, a bit of wind starting to kick up now in late December but been good til now.
Studies done for the year and got some pretty good marks that surprised me. Even pulled a high distinction out so lookout haha.
Just battening down the hatches for the Christmas onslaught of touros and looking forward to the Boxing day test!
Hope you're well mate.
I was a little shocked at Alan Joyce (CEO Qantas) announcement that international travelers will be required to have a covid 19 vaccination in order to travel on Qantas flights . The government wanted to have mandatory vaccination but after the bumbling of its release ( it was painful to watch the delivery of that announcement ) they withdrew the mandatory part but it seems Qantas and other business may demand a vaccination in order to use their services. I’m not anti vaccine by any means I just don’t trust this government or a vaccine that has been rushed through. A jab followed by another jab followed by yearly jabs doesn’t sit well with me as I have never had a flu shot or the flu for more than 20 years. Plus I don’t want to give this shot to my healthy 4 year old daughter. She is up to date with all her vaccinations but this covid vaccine is new and not being around for decades like the others. Tuberculosis remains the number one as far diseases go and you don’t need proof of vaccination to travel so what is going on ?