What's government for?

As stated within all the good posts our govt as others have adopted economic rationalism as their first priority rather than social harmony and development. This ultimately leads to a problem as an economy only exists because of people. They have 2 before 1. Not a good way to start a system that relies on numbers and dollars?!!! Let's take homelessness and unemployment and even the environment. Why can't the govt use or buy tracts of land. Teach unemployed to Assist turning land into camping ground with communal facility's with renewable energy sources and permaculture gardens. They get transferable skills. The homeless can live there and contribute plus have access to services.
This is rough example but gives an idea of how I believe govt's should be working. What other projects do you think would work. Don't just sling shit. Be constructive. Donald may just need us while Malcolm is in the middle.

I thought Abbott's green army had merit for the reasons you describe Dave. It has now been defunded by Turnbull to save a few million.

I like your idea daverave

But it seems homeless people are attracted to cities, probably for all the vices that attract home-ful people to cities. That's not to say your idea wouldn't work, it would be a good incentive for them get out and away from these vices, especially long term. It's so wrong we already have all this under-utilised infrastructure in cities and people sleeping rough in the street. Rather than obsessing over reasonably nice beds and the numbers of them, every city could open their 95% of the time empty halls to these people so they at least have shelter overnight. Be brutal and move them on at 7 in the morning, but at least they'll have somewhere dry to set up their cardboard etc. I hate to make this about class but it seems the people concerned about such things have messed up priorities aiming for ideals all the time, influenced by their own environments. Looking at providing for all should be priority rather than good set ups for individuals. Which is kind of what your suggesting. Providing for individuals is just so expensive in the modern context. There's been a few initiatives for homeless people in cities of late, but they always seem to be relatively extravagent middle class housing projects subsidised for eternity.

I thought the greens negotiated $100 mil for green army?

So if turnball already took it away they just replaced what was initially already there? Maybe that little greens negotiation wasn't so good after all.

I hate to spruik howards wares but landcare has been identified as one of the most successful environmental projects. Mainly because it did engage peoples energies and concerns. Therefore capitalising big time on 'seed finance'. While I think it was a cynical fluke rather than good mangement, more projects along these lines seem to be the way foward, rather than ideological battles for the big money

Have just finished reading "The Great Multinational Tax Rort-How We're All Being Robbed" by Martin Feil (ex Tax Office expert and former chairman of the Institute of Chartered Accountants). A dry read by very illuminating on how Australia could afford all the welfare and infrastructure so dearly desired by most of its citizens, if only big business paid its fair share of tax revenue. Shows how our democracy is truly not working.
Give me a wise chief/leader any day compared to our version of democracy. I can see our society slowly descending into a class of haves/have nots. This can only ultimately create civil chaos. Look at history. While Australia is considered a stable country in today's climate I reckon it's only a few decades short of open revolt unless some fairness and egalitarianism can be restored. Witness the rise of the independent political parties. A sure sign that a lot of people are really pissed off.

Good idea sypkan. Based on how many people are sleeping in their cars and around tweed heads on the ground I think regional area camping communities would work. Yeah spencie it stinks to high heaven and until we have a treasurer with a social conscience and clearer vision we will be at the mercy of the lobbyists and the greediest.

Happy new year, opiniated folk of swellnet land......

Well....... i just had a quick "power read" through the comments since my last visit, And I dont know whether to laugh, cry, laugh and cry at the same time, roll a champion ruby, open a new tab and look at cat videos on utube, eat my salt and vinegar chips, end my 15 year sobriety, or watch repeats of every fucking nye fireworks from around the world for the umpteenth time......

Chips..... I'll go the chips...... Followed by a $3 cigarrette.

I'd be happy with the laughs.

All the best to you Sheepy (and all the opinionated Swellnetters) for 2017.

Smoke em like you got em sheepy. Happy 2017 mate. We're changing the world here. I should be the minister and for everything and the master debater of none. Call forth huey. Release the swell. God I'm good at this.

Zen - all the best to you, big fella....

Davo- what ministry do I get? lol

Fong - dont tell me what to do!!! bahahahahaha..... Mate, surely the occasional intermission of sarcastic humour is allowed in this utopian opionfest..... Or is that too deplorable?

Ok....... I've finished my chips.. i've turned blue in the face from nicotine poisoning..... It's time to take out the trash..

Floyd writes "The Minister for Lobbyist ... WTF.
You channelling Monty Python or Yes Minister on NYE Sheepy? .... Nice Work"

Yes, Floyd.... I knew you'd love it. lol........ But tell me, old China, hows making drugs illegal working for you? When was cannabis banned again? What , 1930? 1940? It's been a truly remarkable success, wouldn't you say? So yes, use the same tactic with lobbying I reckon... make it illegal...... I mean if it's worked so well with drugs, it's sure to work with lobbying :)
Making it transparent and legal would be the stupid way to go.....

Sypo writes on trump - "I actually think his intentions are good, misguided perhaps, but good, which goes a long way."
Trumps intentions are good for Trump..... So i suppose they are good intentions, in a certain way.

Sypo writes " But it seems homeless people are attracted to cities,"........
Yes, we have the annual herd of them heading east towards Melbourne every Autumn. A bit like the bison.....

Sypo writes "be brutal and move them on at 7 in the morning, but at least they'll have somewhere dry to set up their cardboard etc. "
That's the way....... And cardboard is bio degradable.... It's a win win..... Or we could address the negative gearing/ overseas investor/ property bubble..... But that's too hard..... Screw the free pink batts..... "What do we want!! Free cardboard!! When do we want it!!! Before winter!!".....

Fong writes " The worker always gets the boss he deserves."
Gee, dont start giving us your theories on domestic violence mate...... "The wife always gets the husband she deserves?"

Fong writes "Removal of one level of government ( dont care which but we don't need 3 )"
Yes, works so well in other places right? I'll phone Head office Canberra coz my wheelie bin wasn't emptied..... Ridiculous....... 3 tiers are needed.....

Fong No 4 is kind of odd?

When you say centre of the country where exactly do you mean? like the desert?

Dont you need lots of water for cities? and ideally port access?

build a new city in the centre of the country. well maybe. if its a huge solar farm city then yes go for it. solar is our future. export the energy to indo. water? see hitlers aquaducks. problem solvered. just dont ask me to live there. send the immigrants there. thatll solve sydneys population problem too.

defence. australia's activeness on the international front is as much to do with development of our forces for domestic protection purposes as it is politics. like it or not, AUS needs a big force. we are rich and are sitting ducks. build the force but then its sits there doing nothing 99.99% of the time. doesnt make sense. build it. use it.

what about a huge "pokies" city right in the middle of the SA desert. send all the pensioners there. and with each pull of the machines lever we generate electricity on a mass scale. and meanwhile sell up their sydney real estate to pay for another 10 JSF's.

ill call it happytown

Happy, the pensioners like all year heat...... So i think NW Qld desert ot NT would be the go..... Or maybe ever Northern W.A...... The S.A desert is too cold for winter bowls, mate..... bahahahahahaha

sypkan says " .... I thought the greens negotiated $100 mil for green army?

So if turnball already took it away they just replaced what was initially already there? Maybe that little greens negotiation wasn't so good after all".

Errrrrrrrr, best do a fact check on that statement. The $100 million was for Landcare, two different things.

Oh I see, thanks floyd, so green army is done. I guess both would be a bridge too far.

As I suggested before, liberals environment policies seem like cynical pay offs just so they can say we spent $100 mil on such and such. Luckily people care enough to make these things work.

Better than nothing I guess...

Fongtown? what about Hansonville? and we can send all the muslims there, after all they’re from deserts, they will feel more at home and can assimilate better

The only green policy the likes of Poorleeen & MalTones could/would ever support...soylent green. Eat the pensioners!

Fong, the Mayor of Mecca

Fong writes;

Don't just sling shit. Be constructive.

1. Land rights .

2. Complete review of the justice system. I'd suggest judges should be elected yearly by the people.

3. Removal of one level of government ( dont care which but we don't need 3 ).

4. Building a new city in the centre of the country. ..in fact build half a dozen.

5. Make the Australian defense force do as it names imply's and stop fighting other governments wars on the other side the world."

Ok...... I'll be constructive.. Ill also be in your face.... Hope you don't mind...

Point 5 is the best point I fully agree..... It's time to stop being corporate mercenaries.. And that's all armies are these days... They are fighting "wars" on behalf of private multi national giants, but in the name of "the people"...... The whole middle east debacle is all about big oil, but religion is the facade.

Now , point 1 and point 4 clash. A vast area of Cental Australia is native land. The areas that aren't are the some of the driest regions on earth, and any water pipelines from the wet north would have to be built through native title areas, Mining and livestock regions.... Now, seeing the shitfight over the Murray darling water being drained before it get to Victoria and S.A, I wish you well with that water supply for your city. We already have a small city in the middle of Australia called Alice Springs. It doesnt exactly have retirees backed up down the highway wanting to retire there.

Point 3 - already covered that.... 3 tiers are needed......

So IMO, your point 5 is the winner.

Interesting with the Alice underground water supply - Meerinie basin..water levels are dropping a metre per year....around 400 yrs of water left though.

INDO TOWN

1. Make religious organisations pay tax.

2. Turn prisons of all levels into recycling plants, prisoners must work 38 hr weeks sorting though trash removing anything useful from anything that can be reused to separating all kinds of plastics, glass paper etc.

3. Have a go at decimalising drug use, but come down tens times harder on related crime like driving while on drugs.

4. Close down Manus and Nauru give those in detention three choices where they must choose one, resettlement in PNG or Cambodia or return home, once done increase the refugee intake to 25,000 per year, 5,000 for reunite families, 5,000 for refugees that apply once arrive by plane on other Visa's like tourist visas, 15,000 for refugees who apply for Refugee Visa(subclass 200) at an Aussie embassy. (continue with the successful turn back boat scheme, and continue as we do turning refugees away who arrive by plane without Visa's, yes despite what a large proportion of people think, refugees who arrive by plane without a valid visa are not accepted and must be returned to their departure point at the airlines expense)

5. Agree on 5 so will keep that one Make the Australian defense force do as it names imply's and stop fighting other governments wars on the other side the world." (where possible)

6. Make it only possible for nationalised Australians to be able to buy property be it residential or commercial, give those that are only citizens a period of time t become Aussies or if owned by OS buyers a period to get rid of the property.

7. Aim to get ride of tax concessions on investment properties, but do it in a way where the blow is softened over a long time, for example only be able to claim deductions on one investment property per household.(twenty years time no tax deductions would be claimable)

8. Treat all Australians as one and treat all based on need not race, scrap the labelling on forms like are you Aboriginal or Torres strait. (BTW. this doesn't mean these people miss out on anything) but its currently very divisive.

9. Shake up the ABC so it's a neutral balanced media outlet not an anti government bias left media outlet, if it doesn't change sadly it needs to go :(

10. legalise same sex marriage but ban same sex or single parent adoption and IVF for same sex couples. (i know you guys will love this one)

11. Aim to reduce our high immigration intake and clamp down on the rort of 457 visa's.

12. make the big multinationals pay the tax they owe, close the loopholes etc

That will do for now.

Look to the countries where things actually work, i know many don't agree but in my mind places like Singapore, Singapore is an amazing city and has so many balances right between development and green space, like law and order, some of the lowest crime rates in the world, lowest drug use rates, some of the highest home ownership in the world, world class medical facilities, good education system, amazing transport system etc and done it all in less than 50 years. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kishore-mahbubani/singapore-world-successf...

With a landmass roughly 17 times smaller than greater Sydney.

But I like your country Indo, chuck in a few world class waves and I'm there.

Not bad, Indo. Im sure you know why Singapore seems so amazing and it is. A virtual dictatorship. On the refugees, it is paramount that you have a program of providing food, shelter and a job - particularly the refugee assessed.
Yep, if you have some waves then I'm there too.

Yeah Zen Singapore do have it easy being a small country, places like Indonesia and Australia it's 100 times harder being so big and spread out.

Living in Japan, what do you think they get right or do better than Australia?

Fong.... It's a pointless exercise.... Humans continue to go against the grain of nature.... For what? Even the Pitjantjatjara found life exremely hard, in the driest state, in the driest continent on earth.... And you want to build a fully functioning city there? Tell me.... Have you been there? Have you even been to Alice springs?
Ok..... Lets go with this "new city" idea........ You can put in a tender to build it in one of the most extreme places on earth...... My tender will work WITH nature.... My tender will at least have a year round local water supply.....
My spot number 1 for Dawgville would be honeymoon bay region of Northern WA, near the NT border..... Ample wet season water, build whole town cylone proof, natural bay acts as second major port to service SE Asia....
Spot number 2 for consideration would be for those that like the cooler weather - I'd grow the already extisting little town of Marrawah on the NW coast of Tassie... Again lots of rain there, Tassie is crying for jobs (as is northern WA btw).
Work WITH the environment fong, not against it......

What do the Japanese do right? Good question Indo.

Not much, but it seems to work.

Japan has a very homogenous society in that 99.99% of the population is 'pure' Japanese and they like it that way. They see themselves as different to other Asians. They are very heirarchical in that they have a very strict social order that's not necessarily built on class but on adhering to strict social norms as they move through their lives. Individualism is looked down upon here, one must devote themselves to the group and the biggest group of all is Japan.

The population is shrinking but the Japanese are very reluctant to encourage immigration. Their refugee intake is zero. In order to live and work here you have to satisfy a very strict criteria (i.e. you have to be able to offer something they need or want) and to become a permanent resident is very difficult, in that you have to achieve certain levels of literacy, have stable, meaningful employment and be of extremely good character. To become a Japanese citizen is almost impossible.

Foreigners are not eligible for any form of welfare, national health (medicare) must be paid for from the get-go as well as schooling and other social services. You must pay a percentage of your income monthly to live here in addition to income tax and visa renewals must be done yearly or every three years depending on your status of which you must have a visa sponsor. I'm kinda lucky because I'm a company owner so am self-sponsored and have a Japanese wife so I've got a spousal visa back up.

Having said all that, unemployment is around 3%, crime is very low, arguably the safest country in the world, alcohol laws are very liberal (you can walk down the street drinking a beer or crack a tinny on a train), drug laws are brutally strict (you can be jailed for possession of a joint), even though the economy is shrinking, GDP compares favourably with most western countries, the Japanese population has high levels of numeracy and literacy, food is awesome, good waves, sublime snow and the chicks are smokin'.

Don't get me started on the environment though- the Japanese are the most hypocritical fuckers to pace the earth when it comes to the environment.

Obviously not all will agree and this one could turn into a big discussion.

Firstly i have no problem with people's sexual choices, straight, bi, gay, what they do with their bits or who they love or marry has nothing to do with me.

And i want to be clear my personal views are no way religious based.(I'm not religious)

My view is ideally every child should have a father and mother, and a child should have a right to a mother and father where possible, yeah sure relationships break down etc but where possible a child's life should start with a mother and father.

To me it's about the right of the child not the right of those who adopt, the child should come first and foremost.

I take the view that evolution knows best and if evolution intended the best thing to be a same sex couple or a single parent by choice, then we would have evolved to be able to reproduce alone or with the same sex.

To me you cant argue with evolution, call it nature if you will, but it knows best, the purpose of life is to continue the human race and evolution ensures we do it the best way possible.

Ive had this argument with others many times and people always argue same sex couples have proven they can be good parents, there has been studies etc (fark people produce all kinds of studies to support their own views these days) and mixed couples can also be bad parents, that all true, but mixed parents can also be good parents and same sex couples bad parents, that not the argument, the reality is we have not evolved to reproduce alone or with the same sex, so basically it's not natural. (to have a child with the same sex)

All that said if there was a situation where there was no suitable mixed couples available to adopt, yes second best could be given, but as far as I'm aware there is plenty of suitable mixed couple parents wanting to adopt, but the process is hard and expensive adding same sex couples to the mix makes thing harder especially in this day and age where same sex couples would almost gain a kind of priority to ensure statistics are even and same sex couples aren't being neglected.

On immigration rates, i think many would beg to differ, I'm with Dick Smith on this one, Australian immigration rates are way to high and going into the future are unsustainable, to me this is possibly the biggest issue Australia will face in the future.
http://dicksmithpopulation.com/2016/11/29/letter-of-introduction-by-dick...

Cheers Zen interesting read, I've never been to Japan but hung out with quite a few Japanese surfers on the Goldie a fair bit, and Japan has always interested me in how it's society works, i believe they even have alcohol vending machines in public, but don't have problems with underage drinking?

Well said indo

Over a third of all Australians are immigrants.

Worlds highest rates as a per capita.

Yep, you can buy a beer or cocktail from a vending machine in many places. Every hotel or Inn has at least one where you can get beers anytime. Alcohol is sold in supermarkets and 24 hour convenience stores. And it's cheap, bottle of Jim Beam is around $10. A six pack of nice beer about the same.

Japanese love getting shit-faced but they don't have the stupid drunken aggressive mentality that some aussies do. They all take care of each other and if anyone gets out of order, all is forgotten and forgiven the next day. I have never seen a fist fight in Japan. Actually one, but it was in the surf and a stupid foreigner started it.

That is one thing we can learn from the Japs. Plus believe it or not, they make really really good beer and whisky and sake and sho-chu. Asahi Super Dry is kinda ordinary in my books, give me a Suntory Premium Malts any day:)

PS Agree with your views on same sex parenthood.

re- alcohol. I have this discussion everytime i go back to Oz. People keep saying we have an issue with alcohol related violence.. I had a bit of an epiphany in a beer garden in Munich (not during Oktoberfest). There were probably 1000 people in a beer garden getting boozed and I couldnt work out why something felt different. Then i realised there was no agro or dudes trying to be tough. Same where i live in Norway, lots of alcohol but its super rare to see any sort of fight on a saturday night.
So when Australia talks about all kinds of rules regarding pubs, clubs to combat this alcohol related violence i dont really get it. Many other places dont need to punch on when they drink. We have a violence issue not a booze issue.

Hold on a sec. The purpose of life is not to evolve the human race but to allow the free expressions of all manifestations of creation. Humanity not the be all and end all of all life. I'm not disagreeing with you indo but love is allowed in its many and varied forms. Yeah some of it is hard to swallow gag but always a better alternative to the many faces of hate.

Spot on nomad1, as also evidenced by zen's post. The japanese get drunk, really really drunk

Nanny state solutions, aside from being an embarrassment, just make the forbidden fruit more attractive, and punish responsible people.

I used to work nights and loved it when the rave scene was in full flight as there was always somewhere to go, quite often full of hospitality people having drinks ( or something) after work. Aside from the occasional beating by bouncers (probably about other things) there was very little violence. Shift workers should be allowed to have a social life too.

This contrasts dramatically to the (hidden) violence staristics regarding crown casino.

Concentrate on our cultural problems (which probably does include the inability to socialise without alcohol btw) rather than band aid solutions that move problems elsewhere

Lots of good stuff here. Zen if the Japanese are truly homogeneous why are they so infatuated with Hollywood apple and the world game? I point this out only to remind us all that we now all truly live in a global community whether we like it or not -you are reading this courtesy of the world wide web. Alcohol advertising needs to be dropped from all major sporting events as should the gambling mobs. The government should chase multinationals tax avoidance the way centrelink is being forced to chase so called recipient debt and yes all religious organizations to pay tax on all assets. Fongtown to be made capital of the territory and indotown new capital of nw Australia while sheepy town new capital of NZ oh I mean map of. As minister of everything I shall now retire to my Sydney harbourside mansion dictating my memoirs to Andrew bolt and bronwyn bishop with a final edit by Bob katter. Entitled the yobs from the bush-shoot em davo. The views expressed in this rave are not necessarily those of someone sane.

Because Dave, they want to eat their cake too.

Btw, if you're cruising through, stop in to Zenville. You can get a campsite for $6 a night on the grass under some lovely shady trees and there's a smokin' beachie just a short stroll through the Casurinas. The backbeach is offshore in a northerly and the point pumps in Autumn.

And the beer is cold, real cold.

Nice pies too.

"concentrate on our cultural problems".

and how does the govt do that without also embarking on other "nanny state" like soln's.

I'm not sure happyas, but lock out laws are treating the symptons, not the cause.

We need to have a conversation about what's actually happening. Not an the usual argument about semantics from the language police ie. KIng hit versus coward punch.

Are these one punch attacks people running up from behind and smashing someone from behind as some media portray it?

Or is it just goid ol pissheads punching on like sheepdog suggests?

Is it gangs attacking a couple of vulnerable weaklings?

It's probably all of the above, but the media being the abysmal state they are, don't give details, they give agenda, as usual.

Is alcohol the problem? Or meth? Or pills? Or energy drinks? There should be toxicology reports of the perpetrators. Again, I suspect its a bit of all of the above. Seen it myself with mates and aquaintances on two day meth benders, drinking heavily, narky as fuck. Or even on the following weekend, staying of the hard stuff, but chasing the dragon with energy drinks and spirits. Amphetamines and energy drinks play a huge role, I'm sure of that, but the doctors barely mention it. They obsess over the twice as many drinks one consumes while wired up on this stuff.

All this comes back to our 'work hard play hard' culture I mentioned before. It was fine when people drank a carton of beer on a big night because beer's a kind of slow and groggy drunk. But now it's get charged up and drink a bottle of jacks or vodka iccess or whatever then go out.

We do have a very blokey culture in oz, as nomad suggests, no doubt this plays into it. Some say its male insecurities. Some say its harmless fun. Sidfish used to come on here and argue with blindboy about good ol aussie culture and the harmless pub brawl. Some surf towns it used to be part of the culture. Jimmy Sharmans boxers, bachelors and spinsters, its all there, Does it work in the modern context? Do we want to preserve aussie culture? Is it worth preserving? Can aussies be the honourable larrakins we once were in these times?

These are the things we need to address, not turning sydney into a fucking kindergarten.

There was an excellent documentary series on SBS about the last boxing tent in QLD on its final round before pulling the pin. Not sure why they were shuttung down but you can probably guess. After watching it, it seemed a loss to see it shut down, but times change...maybe for better, maybe there's a loss.

Address the issues, don't shut the place down. Why can japanese drink anywhere they want? Why can spanish streets be alive all night with singing and dancing and impropmtu bands setting up in the street? Do that in oz you'll be fined or locked up. I doubt midnight oil or acdc could even film their video clips in the streets of oz these days, if they did it would take a plethora of permits and millions of dollars budget just to get clearance, then there'd be roadblocks, bunting everwhere and a fake OH&S indoctrinated rent a crowd...just to keep everything 'safe'. Its just sad what we've become.

The real issue here is violence. As soon as we blame it on alcohol we take the responsibility away from the individual acting violently.

alcohol is the shittiest, crappiest, lowest drug there is.

alcohol is blamed for violence because.... alcohol causes violence. there are only two drugs that make people violent and alcohol is one of them.

I think we also need to consider that people react with anger while drunk have an inner discomfort. Let's include the other culprits here too and it seems people are gorging to either escape unwanted feelings or situations. Suppression will eventually lead to expressions including grotesque out picturing of emotions. It's also safe to say people indulge to achieve a particular state of mind. By teaching our kids to achieve this state thru meditation and brainwave entrainment as well as emotional responsibility we can stop this epidemic. God the government could do it now through adopting these modalities in mental health and rehab program's as well as primary schools.

I'm a big believer in people facing the full consequences of their actions so I agree with your last comment nicko74. Too often it seems from a young age villains learn that doesn't happen and herein is part of the problem with crime in our community IMHO.

Anyway, a student of Australian history will tell you that from the very first days of the colony alcohol was a big deal here, drunkenness was very common. Alcohol and getting drunk seem to be ingrained into our culture,like in so many other countries. But culturally, alcohol isn't an essential part of a meal like in Europe where wine is freely available but rarely abused.

We do have a massive problem with alcohol and the lock out laws attempt to deal with only one aspect of its abuse. Self inflicted harm like falls and a large part of the road toll and domestic violence are other significant and deadly consequences associated with alcohol abuse.

The other thing I want to say is if you don't want your children to abuse alcohol than don't do it yourself. I have seen and lost many friends who just can't stop "the drink to you drop" mentality into their 30's - 50's and its no surprise they have raised(?) kids that do the same. These same guys no longer surf or do anything we loved doing in the early days and I have to say that is really sad because they were great mates and great surfers.

In the absence of genuine action from the alcohol, clubs and pub industries to reign in the excesses and from pressure from the doctors in our emergency departments it is little wonder governments legislate as they do.

If you want someone to blame here look no further then industry that has the most to lose from curtained consumer consumption.

Chook IMO ,our macho/bravado /footy /bring back the biff culture has a lot to answer to, add alcohol and boom you have a volatile situation. "the gun didn't fire the bullet, the person pulling the trigger did". Sorry to use the gun analogy because this is another debate entirely.....or is it? Any way,why should respectful individuals be punished for the irresponsiblity of the minority? That said I'm catching up with my old man and a few mates today , we'll be watching the test match whilst enjoying a few cold beers, cheers.

Nomad, you bring up some very interesting points about drinking in Japan, Bavaria, and Norway. This sort of matches up with my "nicotine theory" a few pages back. In japan, people are allowed to smoke in bars.... Sure, Owners are also allowed to have non smoking venues. In Bavaria , the beer garden you spoke of, unlike Australia, people can light up there, too..... The same in Norway...... But when u create a situation where people have to congregate outside on the street at 1am, alongside non patrons or patrons who have been ejected and are hanging around, shit is bound to happen.... 90% of coward punches do not occurr inside the venue, but outside on the concrete.
So.... I think the smoking law should be scrapped, and club owners can totally have the right to make their club non smoking or smoking....

Another factor in Australia is the "sin tax"...... Alcohol is now so damn expensive.... It actually was part of the reason i stopped drinking in 2002.... When beer hit $30 for a carton, I said "fuckt it"...... No more...... But I was already in my mid 30s and had done my partying..... The younger generation today have to fork out mega bucks just to get a beer buzz happening... I f I was young, I'd be pissed off by my 3rd drink too..... lol

Kindergarten or not, the problem is that it is easier in both policing and in drinking to know if you can drink or not. A simple black and white issue. A east side beach in Sydney had an instant crowd on Xmas day. Thousands (about 5 thousand). Speakers were setup. Backpackers, outer towners, locals all pissed their arses off. Next day, a mess, broken glass, piss, shit everywhere. There were no toilets only the water with a small shore break.
Crowd control - not possible too many people. There were fights - that's standard.
The following day, the locals clean up the place and yep, you guessed it. Council bans all alcohol at all times from now on.
Pity because the beach had good grass areas with barbies. Normally, a pleasant arvo on the beach for the public.
Now that's changed. Is it the alcohol or the people. It's the people.

Barbs...... 5000 people you say....... Ok..... lets say each of those 5000 folk spent $50 on booze and a yiros, speaker rental cabs etc etc in this council region.... Thats $250 000........ Thats $25000 gst to the state, plus paye taxes for the yiros maker etc..... Now the heading is "whats governement for?"............ If government can't direct say $20 000 of that $250 000 for a clean up the next morning, and call in a few cops at the cost of $100 000 , then I really don't know "what government is for"........ The governemnt still walks away with gst of a cool $130 000.....The locals have those parks for the other 364 days a year......
A fucking do gooder beat up.....

Another person (21 one year old) fighting for life on the Goldy from a one punch from behind (unprovoked) at 2am this morning. Police have apprehended two 14 year olds!

So where and how do 14 year olds get that sort of attitude and behaviour from?

More importantly, what the hell are two 14 year olds doing running around Ferny Ave at 2am in the morning?

Don't their parents know where they are?