What's government for?

SD. it wouldnt matter much. the vast majority of club owners would never accept smokers anymore. its too culturally ingrained now as unacceptable. it would box club owners into a smaller segment of patrons, potentially hurting their profits.

in this case the govt sets a direction to make smoking in public places unacceptable. the long term result is that over time less and less people smoke. it is a pretty bad habit for your health. and health is on the govt agenda.

now.....i cant wait for a fat tax. at least on healthcare premiums please, and on packaged and fast food, mcdonalds etc. we have become a giant bunch of fatties here in australia.

You blow smoke in my face - or anywhere within my vicinity - in an enclosed space and you'll be wearing the contents of my beer .

Smoking is the drug of morons.

I pity those that are addicted, but refuse to indulge their farcical past time by breathing in their stinking , toxic fug.

Smokers are peacemakers ......maybe the least fact -based statement I've ever heard.

queue for ciggy butt brain.....

"Smokers are peacemakers ......maybe the least fact -based statement I've ever heard."

That's because you are ignorant, blowin

https://www.reference.com/history/did-native-americans-smoke-peace-pipes...

Happy writes "now.....i cant wait for a fat tax. at least on healthcare premiums please, and on packaged and fast food, mcdonalds etc. we have become a giant bunch of fatties here in australia."

Aaaaaand this is why sooo many people are pissed off.... Because of happy and the tight arse crew wanting more sin taxes.....
Get off peoples fuckn case, mate..... if you want to whinge about "YOUr TAXES", whinge about thos above you blowing it on shit like syrian wars, dodgy subs, dodgy fighter jets, dodgy nbn, helipcopter flights.... Its easier to pick on those further down the ladder than those above, i suppose...

I read an article that said the no smoking thing had created the resurrection of the great aussie beer garden.

I love a good beer garden

Smoking not so much

So this big punch from behind really does happen. wtf does anybody get out of that?

And yes, where does this attitude come from?

A lot of it seems internalised anger, and people wanting to be hardnuts...but 14??

"I read an article that said the no smoking thing had created the resurrection of the great aussie beer garden."

Hahahahaha........ I love a bit of fiction....... mate "back in my day" (lol), beer gardens used to pump...... Live band, cheap piss, laughs all round...... But from what I've seen around the country, they're dead..... Maybe in the big cities, with free wi fi and quinoa salad, beard hair and all...... But pubs have suffered ever since the smoking bans...... It was around the time of the bans that many pubs went to pokies...... That in turn killed the music scene....
We went into a beer garden in Adelaide only 3 months ago, for a refreshing coke on ice lol...... We were the only ones there..... There were 4 dudes in the front bar.....
This was the pub on the corner of Hampstead and portrush I think..... Don't quote me on that....... But it was a pretty big establishment

Most of the time they're dead...but I think that's about the price of alcohol more than anything. 5 drunks in the front bar, but at least 5 groups having dinner in the beer garden. Seen a few pop up in the suburbs.

Been to a few gigs in town beer gardens, packed out, happy smokers, happy half indoor out door hangers, myself included, nice vibe with a gig in a beer garden.

Maybe pubs have also been ruined by pokies and the increase in bottle shops that is some areas out number milk bars (another declining business along with newsagents, butcher shops and green grocers). Also an increased emphasis on not drink driving. Far easier to walk to the corner to get your booze these days.

My wife used to work in an RSL serving food, she used to get home at 2am and had to immediately shower because of the ingrained cigarette smoke in her hair and clothes from the patrons. After recurring bouts of bronchitis over a 6 month period her doctor strongly advised her to quit the job. If we want to talk about rights what about the rights of workers to a safe work place or is that also too much a nanny state sort of an idea?

Floyd..... Didn't I say have it "optional"? I'm sure most clubs would remain non smoking.... But why can't a smoker open up a smokers club? Well ventilated.... Then maybe 2 million Australian smokers might help turn the economy over, instead of just getting take away and chillin with friends watching netflix. Non smokers dont have to go there.... heck.. Non smokers dont have to work there..... But knowing some non smokers, they'd go there just to whinge, and tip drinks on people... Bahahahahaha

Now back to happy's sin taxes..... His fat tax......... Happy, maybe these fat people would like you to not be such a drain on society.... It's THEIR taxes that will go to your skin cancer treatments in your 50s and 60s..... And you will get them..... Ask Mark Richards, or rabbit, or Tom Carroll...... Some even die.... Melanoma and Squamous cell carcinoma..... Australia - the highest rate of skin cancer in the world.... Surfers - the highest rate within the highest rate...... Sooooooo, it's only logical, using happy's "my taxes" logic, that we bring in a "sun tax".... Why should others have to pay for all that cryotherapy? Biopsys? Operations? Lost wages? it's an outrage, Happy.....
See how ridiculous it can be?

ps - if you work in the sun, you can claim the sun tax back...... But any recreational or pastime activity during high to extreme uv time is double taxed..... lol

Geez, no smoking, no drinking, no eating Maccas or chips. No kicking those kids who are out at 2am up the arse. So what's government for ... do we really need 'government' to make those decisions ? Yeah sure you say, just ban it. You sound like a bunch of wingers. Sound like you want 'government' to make the decisions. Can't the people make the decisions.

England once had a beard tax. Good idea, if you ask me.

p.s. I got 100% on the reCAPTCHA palm tree test. I'm quietly chuffed.

SD. you jumped on my fat tax. that was thrown in as an easy target. but didnt address my first point regarding govt action on smoking in public. [edit] smoking is a plain harmful activity. dont you think its within govt mandate to assist reduce the prevelance of such activity?

Referring to someone as ignorant whilst equating Indian tribes passing a peace pipe during a structured ceremony with Johhno lungbusting his way through a packet of Winnie Reds and a dozen Jacks and Coke during an AccaDacc tribute band is an interesting thought , Sheepy.

I kinda disagree that hospitality businesses have suffered as a result of a smoking ban. I used to live in Sydney and around about the time the full smoking ban that was coming into affect there was a pub in Wooloomooloo that had already done away with smoking. I think it was the Tilbury. That place used to pump and i reckon it was because they had a no smoking no pokies policy. Also, i managed a restaurant on the north shore and when the smoking ban came into effect the owner was whingeing about all the business he was going to lose. Believe it or not his business increased because more families were coming in and bringing their kids.

I agree with Sypkan, I reckon some pubs are suffering due to the price of alcohol more than anything and if I can add to that, the reliance on pokies instead of good service, food and ambience.

But, i reckon businesses could accommodate smokers better by providing a nice smoking room instead of treating smokers like lepers, then everyone is happy.

Happy writes " smoking is a plain harmful activity. dont you think its within govt mandate to assist reduce the prevelance of such activity?"
No..... No I don't..... The government cant bake the cake and eat it too.... When they stop taxing it, and using that tax for roads, education, defence (yes they do - google it), you may have a point.... If it is as harmful as you say, ban it.... Dont profit from it.... Sco mo was standing up in parliament bragging about how much money was going to come in from the tax rise....
Now address my sun tax...... 2000 deaths each year from skin cancer.... Thousands upon thousands mamed and disfigured... 974,767 basal cell and squamous cell cancer treatments in 2015.... Thats 2500 treatments every day.... "Basal and squamous cell carcinoma skin cancers accounted for almost one quarter of all cancer-related hospitalisations in 2010–11. [4] The cost to the health system of these skin cancers alone is estimated to be more than $500 million annually"
That's 1/2 a billion just on those in hospital , for bcc and scc.... Doesn't include Melanoma, local surgeries, dermatologists, biopsys, initial gp visits etc etc etc

2 out of 3 Australians will have at least one skin cancer by the age of 70.... Keep in mind retirement age is being lifted to 75.

13283 melanomas in 2016.... 1774 deaths..... (imagine if it was "terrorism", but thats another story).

So, happy...... Too much sun exposure is unhealthy.... Surely we should have a sun tax, right? "Too much sun exposure is a plain harmful activity. dont you think its within govt mandate to assist reduce the prevelance of such activity?"

Blowin..... You deserved it, bro..... Spill ya fuckn drink on me, mate..... You saw me light up... Dont freekn come over deliberately and cop the smoke..... i don't do it to you when your smoking that hippy shit..... ;) On that, few times you have written that some of your posts are a bit "rough", due to the fact your are sinking a few ales and indulging in another "substance"...... You mentioned it oftn here.... Id go out on a limb and say you are referring to hippy cabbage..... Now... Mate...... i pay taxes on what I put into my lungs.... My future emphysema is medically covered by the ridiculous amount of tax I pay plus interest compounded...... Your future emphysema isn't covered.... And you're mixing alcohol with thc..... Early onset dementia...... So don't go tipping drinks on anyone, big fella... Perhaps put some money aside for future medical expenses that happy will be shitty forking out for..... bahahahaha ;)

"But, i reckon businesses could accommodate smokers better by providing a nice smoking room instead of treating smokers like lepers, then everyone is happy."

I love a good indonesian smoking room almost as much as I love a good beer garden.

Never been game to actually walk into one though, the translucent look through the clear glass from the outside tells me no

That's one thing i hate about Indonesia smoking, almost every male smokes and people don't think twice before lighting up when you are eating.

I think it's crazy in 2016 people still choose to smoke or begin the habit, it taste like shit, makes you smell like shit, it cost a fortune and is obviously very bad for your health and unlike other drugs like Alcohol it doesn't actually have a positive effect until your addicted, at first you get nothing other than a perception of being cool or some head spins if your lucky..yeah great.

Yeah sure we all did it as teens thinking we were cool, these days even if someone paid me $100 for each cigarette smoked i couldn't do it, just the thought makes me dry retch.

Just on the Coogee Beach beat up. Was walking there xmas morning, there was a lot of rubbish but didn't seem any worse than other years. Mostly it's been well handled in the past, they could just put more bins about and maybe people wouldn't leave so much rubbish behind. But again, while it was bad, it was hardly any different from other years. I didn't hear any reports of violence, so what's the problem?

And then they slap an alcohol ban on, or did they? Actually, it's been an alcohol free area for the new year's period for years now. I couldn't work out why this was all news, it's actually no different to how it's been for a while. I put it down to a slow news day and they just put this in as a filler.

But the dark underbelly of violence in our culture is key. I can't explain it, but there are just too many blokes around seemingly ready to pop at the slightest slight. That's the problem. I quite like a 'blokey' culture, but that doesn't mean a violent culture and it doesn't mean a sexist 'demeaning to women' culture. Why are so many men raring to have a go?

Perceived emasculation is a bitch.

Also, we're a sad nation of wee piss - heads (since year zero...1788)

SD. id argue that people are more aware now of skin cancer than ever before and people do take action themselves. skin cancer may be on the rise in because the baby boomers were the ones in their youth laying out for hours on the beach with no care in the world. that doesnt exist nearly as much anymore. young people are much more aware of the dangers. you can tax people sure, but govt education campaigns are working well.

my fat tax is a last resort govt mechanism where everything else is currently failing. doctors tell people they need to lose weight. healthy eating guidelines exist. the risks are well known. but still people are getting fatter and fatter and its now an epidemic. maybe australia is not ready for that type of tax yet, or maybe theres still other mechanisms in place.

yes, you can apply my tax theory in a purist form to anything. but im not a purist SD. im a practicalist. you see tax as punishing people. i see it as swaying peoples decisions for the better. if govt is about setting healthy direction for our communities then potentially everything is up for grabs. but priorities are important.

I reckon you're dead right regarding boomers and skin cancer happyas. Also people being much smarter or aware now. In fact, so much so, some kids are showing vitamin D deficiency and there's argument schools should drop their must wear hats or no outside play in winter policy. Which I'd be all for. The problem with blanket mandatory rules is, they're just so blanket and mandatory, that any discretion and common sense goes out the window.

I'm all for the fat tax too, as you state, nothing else is working to such a point that obesity is overtaking smoking as the biggest killer. Not to mention its kinda embarrassing all the fattys getting around. Most confronting when you return from overseas. Apoarently the issue has split the greens party (amongst other things). Its a contaversial one but what else do you do?

I think alcohol is underated in its contributing factors to other illnesses, but no government will touch that one in pisshead oz.

Also I'd argue the health benefits of a life long obsession with surfing would well outweigh the negatives.

There's not many sports that keep people moving well into their 60s and 70s. Most superfit footballers are washed up fat pissheads by 40

Sypo writes "Also I'd argue the health benefits of a life long obsession with surfing would well outweigh the negatives.
There's not many sports that keep people moving well into their 60s and 70s. Most superfit footballers are washed up fat pissheads by 40"

Thats incredibly subjective, sypo..... And you are comparing chalk to cheese.... You're comparing a competitve team sport to something that is also done as a solo past time. Compare it to jogging or running, or bushwalking, or even golf, other past times/ sports that are solo and can be done without "team bonding".

Oh I forgot sypo... Your first point..... No it wouldn't...... Shot knees, bad backs, worn out shoulders..... All over a past time..... A recreation..... Yeah I'm playing devils advocate, mate, especially with the sun tax..... But it's that sort of thinking with the sugar tax....

"Why should I the tax payer have to fork out for your obsession? You burn yourself to a crisp playing in the waves and want ME to fork out for your cancer treatments in your 50s?

As I said, bro..... I'm playing devils advocate to make a point on the nanny state.

its not just about the money. i noted health care premiums but thats only one way of looking at it. if the tax is a means to an end to help people to make better choices then whats wrong with that? mcdonalds for example is a relatively cheap way of feeding the family when you consider you dont have to lift a finger. walk in - eat - walk out feeling full and happy. but what exactly did you just eat? sugary buns, sugary sauces, fatty chips, sugary drinks, and thats without desert. if you have kids then you know there is no way in hell your getting out of there without dessert.

Oh fuck sheepdog...I can't tell which side I'm on anymore with you...

I'm dead against the nanny state (just in case I've been too subtle).

I think the fat tax gives people a choice rather than banning stuff outright Just like beer gardens do, smoking rooms do, disincentives to partake do. You can choose, they also reflect the medical costs of such things. Ideally I don't agree, but it's better than banning (though an outright ban on mcdonalds I'd support for many reasons, but you have to give and take).

Mate I've got fucked joints from surfing too.....or have I?

They're also fucked from working, partying, living, ( generally overdoing things in our lifestyle of extremes). People always try and blame one thing, look for simple answers. I've had opportunities to blame (and profit from) work for various injuries, but my better judgement tells me it was a combination of factors that contributed, so I roll with it, suck it up...whatever ...

My mates that gave up surfing in their 30s also have injuries, from work, from surfing, whatever, they became bitter, chased the dollar, 'won' a case here and there...but won nothing. They're less fit, more fat, more addicted to whatever and lead pretty boring lives by my standards.

It's almost impossible to pinpoint causes. Perseverance, physio, trying to make better choices has me currently in a pretty good state considering the mess I've been in, and for-saw being in, through some recently depressing injuries.

I can honestly say, surfing has morivated me and kept me moving better than the drop outs, and on balance, has kept me fitter and less of a burden on society (not discounting the fact I've paid for my own operations, treatments, etc. because medicare is failing abysmally!!!) I would'nt have been motivated to pay if I did'nt want to keep active. I'd be a fatso the wombat playstation playing pisshead, just like the rest of them.

Heh, can't have fat nannys in a nanny state. A fat tax ! Must be in the wrong thread. Where's the joke thread again ....

thoroughly explained TB. good job mate.

Governments have a right to recover through taxes the costs associated with bad habits. Even now, taxes on cigarettes and fast foods do not cover the costs of treating the illnesses they produce. The question of sun exposure is a more difficult case since a tax on sunlight would be difficult to impose!
The "nanny state" is a convenient fiction created by those who espouse the radical right view that personal responsibility should be the primary value. You may remember Thatcher's infamous quote to the effect that there was no such thing as society.

Governments don't have a 'right' as such but rather govern according to the will of the people. I don't see anywhere by any party (which is most likely to govern) announce such policies. Except of course cig tax. It would be fair to say the cig tax is working and society reducing its usage hence health impact. Before any such 'right' is announced I think we would all expect it to be canvassed first. You won't see a fast food tax for obvious reasons. Just contemplate a scenario where you are 'told' what to eat ....

TB. whos talking about uncanvased policies? we're shooting the breeze on a surf forum remember. and whats obvious one day is unobvious the next.

""""just contemplate a scenario where you are 'told' what to eat?"""" errrr. its happening right now to you TB. its called advertising. and the fast food giants are top of the game.

You are probably correct tb. It's better described as an obligation and arises out of that, much neglected, concept of equity. Good governance does not privilege one section of society at the expense of the rest without a substantial reason eg being a parent.
The neglect of this concept explains why we have such overwhelming amounts of middle class welfare, not only through government largesse (negative gearing, superannuation concessions etc) but also through the pathetic pay rates of workers in service industries such as child care, aged care and retail. A fair go? Not anymore in this country.

Maybe it would be better to look at incentives rather than disincentives. For example, if I'm somewhere like byron, I find it almost impossible to eat unhealrhy food purely because of the wide range of excellent choices available, this is despite over the top pricing. Conversely, if I'm stuck in one of the ghettos I tend to work in, it's almost impossible to find good choices, even when willing to pay a premium. No wonder the ghetto dwellers end up at mcdonalds which is cheap and plentyful.

Deny it all you like, call it what you like. A place that enforces adults having to wear a bycycle helmet to ride 100 metres down to the corner shop is overly controlling. Nanny state seems appropriate...very very appropriate.

incentives dont work sypkan. people already have an incentive. its called health, waking up and feeling good. i pull up in a parking lot at the surf and see obese people eating crap while sitting in their running airconditioned car while watching people surf on a beautiful day. i mean. cmon. the incentive is already there.

but thats ok. people are free to be fat. im ok with it in principle. but as someone said earlier a couple of pages back in relation to lock out laws..."why do responsible people need to suffer because irresponsible people take no care" - or something to that effect. well that same argument can be used many different ways, including for the favour of fat tax.

where i get confused is the ones complaining about "corporations and big business" and at the same time complain about the "nanny state". you lose the nanny state, and you lose everything. the only thing keeping corporations from literally running your life is our govt.

you want a more controlling govt or less?

Sypo writes "Maybe it would be better to look at incentives rather than disincentives. "

Now that's the sypo we all love......... bahahahahahahaha....

I fully agree..... You reward good behaviour, you get good results..... Try it with your kids... Your dog ffs lol..... too much big stick and you will get resentment.... you'll get "deplorables"..... And we all know where that leads.....
Because "healthy eating" is now a "masterchef trend", healthy foods are priced out of reach for those that really need healthy food....... It's quite shameful actually.
So IMO I think instead of the continued greed by government (which really is what these sin taxes are about), if healthy food was in some way legislated to be cheaper, to therefore REWARD good behaviour, I believe it would work better than the big stick...... Whether it gets subsidized, made gst free is open for debate.... But you wouldn't want the woolies of the world just greedily not handing on the savings to the consumer.

Happy writes "where i get confused is the ones complaining about "corporations and big business" and at the same time complain about the "nanny state". "

I'm confused about your confusion..... Individual "NOT FOR PROFIT" liberty is slightly different than shareholder profit at the expense of many...... What's there to be confused about, Happy?

oh for fuck sake. seriously SD? now you want healthy food to be cheaper than bad food. so this whole time you got hung up on the word "tax". and by govt handouts for "healthy food" we are again entering nanny state where the govt is trying to influence society.

whatever. im only replying to this friggen thread because i have a busted rib. but even now I think ill go for a surf. it'll be less painful than this.

Jesus H Christ Happy...... I want things cheaper..... Not dearer...... Whats so fuckn hard to understand about that? You want freakn tax on everything.....

Take a chill pill, dude...... Go sit on the beach..... Just pay your sun tax before you do... It's extreme uv at the moment...... That's double the rate.... bahahahahaha....

As far as bike helmets go, the same applies. The cost to the community to take care of a severely brain injured individual is huge......but for all you libertarians out there I would be happy for an exclusion clause. No helmet, no health care subsidy for the injury. Pay or die. Sounds consistent with the overall philosophy.

Libertarianism: the shallowest of shallow 'philosophies' for the shallowest of shallow people slash 'thinkers'. Case in point, this guy...

On your friggin' bike, Dave, ya dickhead!

How about the politicians expenses? What a gig. Australia the land of forgiveness. Why isn't the media all over this? Now is the time for the public to say enough is enough. Stop the rorting.

BB, referencing Wikipedia shows that Aus is nearly on its own with respect to bike helmets. Is this a sign that we are not too bright with respect to self care. A sign of nanny state, maybe. I would have thought that health insurance will pay your health issues. You do get a bill regardless or you just wait. You can't wait too long with a split head.

"....already have an incentive. its called health, waking up and feeling good. i pull up in a parking lot at the surf and see obese people eating crap while sitting in their running airconditioned car while watching people surf on a beautiful day."

Pet hate that one...can't fucking stand it. They usually are a fat bastard, (or a princess)...must make it too hot all that extra insulation. This is where it becomes so sad, they won't even get out and enjoy the day while eating their food. One thing leads to another, can't/won't walk anywhere, always want a taxi even for short trips, can't do stairs. It feeds on itself (sorry) getting fatter and fatter, doing less and less.

Then there's the fatness leading to parents believing their fat kids are normal which was reported recently. I really feel for the kids, never even experiencing what its like to be normal. Especially the girls, it may be sexist, but it impacts them big time.

Yeh I reckon there's hope for incentives sheepdog, make it so overwhelmingly advantageous you're a fool to do otherwise, a bit like eating in byron. Best thing byron did was protest the mcdonalds.

I think happyas' point regarding controlling corporates versus the nanny state comes to the core of the initial question, the role of government. It should be to represent the people and keep greed in check, as pointed out by batfink way back. But unfortuntely both sides have been bought up by big business, and try to control budget blowouts by over-meddling in people's lives. Individualising everyone and renaming them 'consumers' was the beginning of the end. 'Third way' bullshit just allowed the left to jump on the neo-liberal bandwagon.

Thatcher might say there is no society, but for better or worse, people need communties. Even miserable capitalist cunts form their own communities. We are social beings that need to belong.

Individualism, consumerism, neo-liberalism, third way, identity politics, left, right, etc. etc. have all undone that, and that's why shit's all over the place atm.

Its a long road back from here....if that's even possible anymore...

Blind boy writes "As far as bike helmets go, the same applies. The cost to the community to take care of a severely brain injured individual is huge......but for all you libertarians out there I would be happy for an exclusion clause. No helmet, no health care subsidy for the injury. Pay or die. Sounds consistent with the overall philosophy"

Ok.... Same with surfing then.... No helmet, board to the head, no cover..... No rubber nose guard, speared - no cover.....

Where does this end?

BTW. What ever happened to those rubber nose guards and gath helmets?

Sypo..... In regards to what you elaborate on about Happy's "corporates versus the nanny state"

There is another major difference between the individual eating a pizza (maybe too much pizza), and a multi national ... The individual is having money GOING out.... The individual is making no economic profit from eating the pizza.... The multi national however makes profit... It as a non entity has money COMING in.....
One has money going out.... The other money coming in..... And in most cases, the individual pays tax, can't claim on the pizza...... The multi national pays fuck all tax, can claim on everything associated with running itself....

I missed that blindboy post re. helmets.

I suspected this thinking came from the left, another nail in the coffin of it's real world relevance (and I still call myself left). Combined with your economic rationalism blindboy you're straight out of the Blairite book of 'the third way'.

I know the left scowls at any cries for common sense these days, but really blindboy?

You're all in with calls of putting on a bike helmet to nip down the corner shop. I thought a climate change enthusiast like yourself would be all for anything that encourages not firing up the car?

Oh that's right, you're not big on personal responsibility.... unless it effects the economic rationalism

dissapoining mate, I thought better of you

That's not to say there isn't a place for bike helmets.

But, as I said before, the problem with blanket and mandatory rules is they're just sooo...blanket, and mandatory

sypkan, appeals to common sense usually only reveal the absence of a coherent argument. Presumably, since you object to my modestly rationalist economic suggestions, you would prefer a health system that was either very much more expensive or very much less efficient. My remark about about dying if you couldn't pay was a sarcastic reference to the ultimate consequences of libertarian philosophies.