What's what?

okay make it 2018 .... someone set a historical date ( better still go back to a floating date so we definitely get the weekend) . Actually make it January 24 and we can celebrate the last day of peace .
What ever happens with the flag , can we avoid ending up with the same colours as Brazil or South Africa . Someone start a petition ...

Shatner'sBassoon wrote:

As for the Republic...a important symbolic move if there ever was one...refresh your memories about the referendum here.

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/judas-rising,...

Did all this über flag-waving correlate with Howard's subsequent reign?

My view on Australia Day and Anzac Day is they were definitely hijacked by Howard and others as part of the conservative's so-called "battle of ideas" designed to look backwards "to the glory years of empire" and deny emerging ideas like the republic, reconciliation with Aboriginals, questioning the lock-step alliance with Uncle Sam and even as far as rewriting the national curriculum in education (this still is a battle front for many conservatives).

Regarding a future Australian Republic I wonder what will happen to Crown Land titles that the Queen holds here? She legally owns 1/6 of the non-ocean surface of the earth according to this article?
No wonder she directed Howard to sabotage the 1999 Republican referendum!
http://www.newstatesman.com/global-issues/2011/03/land-queen-world-austr...

nice one southey, the date thing, but the rest toi

Hawaii Shats !

If you really want a republic then go the hard yards and put forward a model. For example, how / who elects the president, the flag (you would think that will be easy), constitution questions. From what I can see, Aussies don't care and certainly don't feel that the Brits have any control.

tb .
i wonder if Gough Whitlam agrees with you ...........

Shatner'sBassoon wrote:

As for the Republic...an important symbolic move if there ever was one...refresh your memories about the referendum here.

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/judas-rising,...

Did all this über flag-waving correlate with Howard's subsequent reign?

I'd say the arrival of Neo patriotism was more aligned with the studious enhancement of the multicultural immigration program.

southey wrote:

tb .
i wonder if Gough Whitlam agrees with you ...........

What a political moment that was.
Maybe the President would have sacked Goughie. Who knows. And to think the gov general was selected (elected) by Goughie.

This would have to be splelt out.

Shatner'sBassoon wrote:

When was that again?

http://www.aph.gov.au/binaries/library/pubs/bn/sp/migrationpopulation.pdf

Pg 24 on (pick a box)?

Are you genuinely unaware of Australia's demographic changes in the last 20 years ?

die yuppie die painters dockers youtube- check out the demographics of the Melbourne CBD in 1988 if you'd like a contrast to the present situation.

PS sorry about the reference, it's the first time I've tried to copy and paste.

Thought I had it too.

Damn.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/latestProducts/3412.0Media%20Release12013-14

Ha ! I did it.

I think.

Nup, didn't work.

Anyway, we've got the highest percentage of migrants for 120 years.

And those were Poms and Irish migrants.

Not the biggest contrast in cultures you can imagine.

Shatner'sBassoon wrote:

When was that again?

http://www.aph.gov.au/binaries/library/pubs/bn/sp/migrationpopulation.pdf

Pg 24 on (pick a box)?

thats starting to look pretty multicultural to me..... lots of the UK immigrants have come here for family reasons. these numbers will have become vastly different for 2011 and next year too. the trend has swung strongly definetely towards china and india. you hardly have to see the stats to know that, just go outside. (all good though - im not complaining)

heres an article with some context added...

http://blog.id.com.au/2011/population/australian-demographic-trends/aust...

seems like we dont care as much for the brits as we used to. bunch of whinging poms.

Shatner'sBassoon wrote:

Get your flags out! Some info from the link above for the link-averse......

for sure, im not claiming that AUS is doing enough w.r.t its humanitarian intake. but simply that our immigration program as a whole is taking a turn away from just majority UK born. even though we still as a majority "gel" with British culture more than anyone else the cultural ties over the last couple of decades are waning. i think the trend towards intake from india and china will just grow stronger. ive said it in other topics, that immigration (humanitarian excepted) is really just a business in itself. simply put, australia will take whoever as long as they are backed by a. education, and b: money.......one of the old immigration requirements ("can speak english") is not even properly tested anymore. it seems half broken engrish is good enough. maybe mandarin should be compulsory for all kids these days?

p.s - dont own an aussie flag....can't think of anything more sad than waving that thing around....but i still believe holding a moments silence when its at half mast. some traditions need to stay.

maybe I was wrong, australia is not ready for change at all, it's going to take another 40 years of arguing to convince tonybarber's mates that Australia day is totally embarrassing and somewhat misplaced. see the post from facebook at the bottom.

it seems Australia is becoming more devided by the day about these issues, racism, migration, islam, indigenous affairs,.even after getting rid of Abbott. the right and left are so bunkered down on many issues, and it appears the goal of common ground has long lost favour.

I think both sides need to back off a bit, or the alternative is a very devided nation with few of the values both sides are espousing as 'Australian' surviving

I hate to go there, but a lot of the stuff reclaim Australia and the like complain about aren't that over the top, yet they are presented as nutjobs, thankfully the public have rejected them as nutjobs because clearly they have dark motivations, but I fear shutting them down , discounting their fears will only strengthen their zeal, and appeal in the long run

when I read blowin's quote below I agree with him, neo multiculturism was/is clearly a factor in rising neo patriotism, but it's not a debate of howards way versus whoever's agenda, it's everything and everyone feeding on eachother, not either/or

"I'd say the arrival of Neo patriotism was more aligned with the studious enhancement of the multicultural immigration program."

but when I read blowin's quote " ..studious enhancement of the multicultural immigration program." I don't think of numbers or countries, I think of a multicultural agenda that has developed that asks very little of migrants to 'fit in'. multiculturalism, tolerance, acceptance, assimilation, integration... all buzzwords from government departments and policies that mean little....until they actually happen, and they do happen...eventually, through time and generations these things develop organically, and that's why multiculturalism has been a resounding success in Australia despite recent claims otherwise.

I think the overpaid lefties in government and media jobs need to back off with their social engineering, not to mention their over the top outrage whenever someone challenges the status quo. the right needs to back off too, but to be honest the well to do pompous lefties are often arguing with barely educated 'battlers'. name calling might be keeping it at their level, but it's probably not the best way to win an argument. we are losing what Australia used to be, it doesn't have to be this way

Matt Chun
January 27 at 6:23pm ·
While cleaning up my little espresso bar on January 25, I placed a blackboard in my window, on a whim. It has since received a lot of attention. The blackboard read ‘Yes, we’re open on National Dickhead Day’.
A member of my community photographed the sign and posted it online. It’s hard to quantify the reach of the blackboard on Facebook, but a newspaper report early yesterday quoted an instance of 700,000 ‘likes’ for the photo, 2000 comments and a further 4,000 shares. Facebook activity was primarily fueled by the pages of several hard-right political organisations, advocating various forms of retaliation. Several hate pages were also set up specifically to target my business. From here, the photo was picked up by local and then national news agencies. Needless to say, this was all quite surprising. I’ve learned much about social media, and much about Australia.
Over the last days, messages have been cascading through my email account, containing unprintable abuse and describing group plans for physical attacks. My voicemail account has mercifully reached capacity and I’ve long stopped listening to the graphic and explicit death threats. These messages have been much more chilling than the thousands posted online.
The provocative blackboard seems innocuous now, entirely disproportionate to the scale of the hatred. Indeed, taken on face value, the blackboard was possibly the most Australian thing that one could write about ‘Australia Day’, in a country that claims to be proud of its ‘larrikin’ irreverence and self-effacing humour. However, in the few moments that it was displayed, the sign lifted a rock from under which so many interesting things have crawled.
The scope of the hatred has surpassed any meaning that could reasonably be inferred in my simple chalked jibe. Over the past days, my espresso bar has been used as proxy for Indigenous Australians, Islam, refugees, homosexuality, class, Asia, immigration and much more. The bloodthirsty outrage, white anxiety and bitter intolerance was not a necessary response to the blackboard. For two days the blackboard has simply been a convenient repository.
The individual who took the original photo of my blackboard, sparking the internet furore, has displayed his own political views on his ute for many years. These views have been both racially and sexually offensive. By comparison with my blackboard, they are presented in stronger and more explicit language. No national internet firestorm has ensued.
By contrast, my blackboard’s message was addressed to no one in particular. Arguably, it offended those who experienced a moment of self-recognition. As these individuals continue to over-react, the sign only becomes truer. The shoe clearly fit, and they wore it.
Many of the online comments gloated over what they saw as my inevitable loss of business and the demise of my espresso bar. These groups and individuals threatened vandalism, arson, murder, mass violence and also threatened those who chose not to boycott. Mainstream media have also been curious about the effect that such overwhelming social media hatred might have on a small business.
On ‘Australia Day’ morning, the door locks to my business had been drilled out and the windows glued shut. Yet, we opened for trade.
It was our biggest ‘Australia Day’ crowd on record. Many people travelled from as far as Batemans Bay in the North and Merimbula in the South to drink a coffee and have a laugh. Among these supporters, we were particularly happy to welcome esteemed members from some strong, local, and largely marginalised communities.
For those who haven’t visited my shopfront, it is primarily an open creative studio. I work as a professional artist, which keeps me pretty busy. The espresso bar is a side project, attached to my studio, because I love coffee. I have never gauged its success by the size of my customer base. The diverse and tolerant nature of the crowd is much more important to me. And if the space can be used to irritate the humorless or jingoistic members of my community, I find that very hard to resist.
I was not intending to create a social media frenzy, publicity stunt or national debate. The blackboard was written light-heartedly, and only displayed for 15 minutes.
That said, I am not trying to dilute the sentiment. ‘Australia Day’ is a singular atrocity. Celebrating January 26 at best trivialises - and at worst glorifies - the invasion of this continent, declaration of terra nullius, massacre and attempted genocide of its 30,000 year old indigenous population. It is a day spent revelling in the mindless perpetuation of old myths and the clumsy fabrication of new ones. It is no accident that ‘Australia Day’ has been so effectively co-opted by an extremist minority as a thinly veiled anniversary of white privilege.

@sypkan... Hmmm....not sure who you are referring to with respect to 'mates'. You nothing of my background, ethnic make up and whatever. Throwing darts in the dark, shows your true colours and maybe Matt Chun was referring to your likes. The 26th Jan is a contentious date, so suggest an alternate, if you wish.

fair call tonybarber, I'm falling for the sane thing I'm criticising

it's hard not to pick on you though, you do seem to align yourself with this neo patriotism (I do like that term). it's a strange phenomenon all this aussie pride arising side by side with an obsession about anzac day and gallipoli, I'm all for acknowledging anzac day, it's just the Gallipoli obsession is weird

this new patriotism has made facing stuff Australia was ready to face 25 years ago unfaceable. I know you're not a nutjob tonybarber, I just think you have a very old school view. I think if you asked Australians should Australia be republic that acknowleges 'some' abiriginal ownership? you would easily get 70-80% of Australians say yes.

unfortunately we're all caught up in these other debates

Cheers, sypkan. I will need to work I what I say if it seems I align myself with 'neo patriotism'. 'Nationalism' by another term, I think. I suppose I suggested Anzac Day instead of the 26th Jan for several. Nationalism was not really the intention. From my angle, I will subscribe to the 'Lucky Country' concept and to a degree 'They're a Weird Mob'. Just look at what choice we have for surf ….

"Australia is a lucky country run mainly by second rate people who share its luck." Donald Horne.

They're a Weird Mob was a popular Australian novel written by John O'Grady under the pseudonym "Nino Culotta". They also made a film of it. Shit-paper.

"I think the overpaid lefties in government and media jobs need to back off with their social engineering, not to mention their over the top outrage whenever someone challenges the status quo. the right needs to back off too, but to be honest the well to do pompous lefties are often arguing with barely educated 'battlers'. name calling might be keeping it at their level, but it's probably not the best way to win an argument. we are losing what Australia used to be, it doesn't have to be this way."

There's so much wrong in this, who knows where to start?! Please explain?

Jeez Turkey, you still quoting that Donald Horne dribble ?

Sure, it's true enough that most of the people that run the country - at face value , ie the politicians - are second rate.

But isn't that true of the world all over and since time immemorial ....that politicians are flat out aspiring to be 2nd rate ?

And sure enough, Australia IS lucky.

It's been blessed with a stable, mineral rich geology and a wealth of varied climates supporting a multitude of beautiful , healthy and sustaining life forms that any human would be stoked to stumble across.

BUT....where your lazy mimicry of an oft quoted ,though fallacious , statement falls flat is that it is a direct result of the Australian people's at large that lead us to be existing in The Best Country On Earth.

You like the capitals ?

They do seem to draw the eye don't they ?

And to an observer with the discernary thinking capacity of the average Bowerbird , such as yourself , they scream - "Patriotism ! = Rascist ! = Fascist !!!" In large blue letters.

But....by almost any measure, those words are literally true.

Are we a safe and stable nation politically ? Yes.

Do we all have access to FREE health care ? Even a temporary visitor ? Yes.

Are we guaranteed free speech, freedom of belief and association ? Yes.

Do we encourage or permit domestic violence, child molestation, any form of violence , thievery , abuse or intolerance that goes beyond free speech and impairs anyone's ability to live a peaceful existence ? No.

Do we have freedom of religion ? Yes.

Is there each and every support group you could imagine available , free, to any disenfranchised or destabilised person ? Yes.

Is there a viable support network , including a fiduciary system to financially benefit the unemployed or the unemployable ? Yes.

Free education ? Yes.

Free access to legal representation and as open, honest and accountable legal system as you will find anywhere ? Yes.

An egalitarian society where everyone's opinion is of equal worth under the Westminster democratic system ? Yes.

Gender / Racial / Religious / Sexual orientational equality to rival anywhere ? Yes.

A happy, prosperous society where creativity is encouraged, where the arts are valued and rewarded ? Yes.

Australia is as good as anywhere in pretty much all these and a virtually innumerable other quantifiables, measures and standards.

Taken as as whole , we are unquestionably the best place on Earth to be a citizen.

And this is purely a result of the cumulative input from each and every person that has every contributed, consciously or unconsciously to our society by nothing more than being a member of it and aiding in the organic evolution that has resulted in where you now live.

For lesser or greater. Better or worse , regardless of race , colour , age , religion or creed , Australia as we live it today is the direct result of the people that face its shores.

And THAT is something to be proud of.

I'm not saying you should take credit for it all.

Just allow yourself to love the people around you a bit more because WE are responsible for not becoming any of those wretched shitholes around the world that you would rather not reside in.

And those places are many.

OI!

Now say " maaaaaate" like its a derogatory reference.

Because a lot of Australians say " mate ".

And they're dumb cunts , right ?

Tuning in and out of this thread but all pretty fair points blowin.

The only one I'd disagree with is the social equality stuff (gender, racial equality etc). We definitely aren't too bad but we're a fair way behind plenty of places like countries in Europe, NZ and even in some ways America. We get too hung up on denying the symbolic actions as though they don't count and don't matter (see Rudd's apology for example). Course they themselves don't change anything but they make some members of a repressed or formerly repressed minority feel more welcome and more a part of society which can help them to help themselves. Like gay marriage, we get hung up on saying well they don't have any legal discrimination in our society (Howard fixed that) so they don't need marriage. But marriage equality is just another symbolic step towards full inclusion. Both parts are important but we haven't fully worked that out yet. Other places figured it out a decade or more ago.

These are the things we're quite a way behind many other countries that are our peers. That's ok of course we are where we are. We're a traditionally socially conservative country and these are the frontiers of progressive ideology today.

Australia is pretty bloody incredible and I'm stoked to live here in this day and age. But best in the world? Everyone says that about their own country don't they? :-)

I look from across the ditch and think NZ might be better than us objectively. they seem to tick all the boxes we do don't they? But a bit more rational in their political debate I think. They seem to elect better pollies than our knuckle heads. And it's a beautiful place with incredible waves and snow to boot!

Blowin wrote:

Now say " maaaaaate" like its a derogatory reference.

Because a lot of Australians say " mate ".

And they're dumb cunts , right ?

Yeah, nah.

If New Zealand is so great Benski, why is the flow of immigration between the two nations massively weighted in one direction....towards Australia ?

Especially taking into consideration Australia's much larger population.

Not just opportunity that attracts Kiwis to Oz I'll wager.

Lifestyle maybe ?

Welly ?

Anyway Benski, that's a single possible maybe out of 196 countries.

BTW - regards the equality deal - Oz gave women the vote first in the world I'm pretty sure.

Same sex marriage delays ?

Purely down to those 2nd rate humans that we refer to as politicians again.

No one else gives a fuck who marries who.

As long as they're adults - another point in our favour over backwards fuckups such as those nations that love to marry off their 10 year old daughters.

Blowin wrote:

If New Zealand is so great Benski, why is the flow of immigration between the two nations massively weighted in one direction....towards Australia ?

see why below.....

Funnily enough blowin, we were a year behind NZ on the ladies voting too :-) as for the migration, thought that was economics driving it but not sure. And I thought it had started to change. But yeah I really don't know and don't care too much.

But seriously mate, I'm not arguing with you, not trying to prove anything of some ranking of countries, just chatting. I reckon it's silly to say Australia is the best country in the world. It's as silly as the American politicians who say the same thing. And the French ones. I even think the Canadians are guilty of it. Thing is they're all right on some level or another. Just depends on your criteria and what you want in life. I reckon Australia is pretty bloody amazing. But we're not perfect, nowhere is. But I think maybe nz might be a bit better. Just a more mature, less insecure people compared to us as far as I can tell. Not so much that I'll move there anytime soon, give it a few years and I might. Reckon it'd be worth spending some time there so I can find out.

NZ is my idea of heaven in many ways, I'd take it over Oz. How lucky are we in the west to be able to pick and choose from so many amazing locations around the world, to holiday and to live.

For sure Benski.

Mate to be honest, I'm just playing with the one dimensional anti - patriot mob that seems as retarded as the pro patriot mob.

I spend a lot of my time overseas and as much as I love the people, beauty and culture - yes culture - of Oz, I find the joint a little boring due to the whole nanny state deal .

But I imagine the availability of a pristine environment and the lack of population density will keep drawing me back.

Good luck with NZ mate.

It looks incredible.

I rate Aust. in the top 10% of countries. One of the better ones and I'm very glad that's where I am from giving the percentage likelihoods of it being somewhere else (if at all). But for me it's psychologically fractured and missing depth, which is understandable given the history, it just is what it is. There is cultural richness but it's not embedded into the ordinary culture, Australia is a lot like a cocky teenager, and it's a bit tiring.

Tell me you don't envy the Basque!?

Same here actually. Time overseas I mean. And how I feel about the culture here.

We'll see how it goes with nz. Genuinely a couple of years away yet.

Mk1- I'm not familiar with Basque culture?

Something about a struggle for independence from the Spanish ?

mk1, how do you see Australia/ns as being psychologically fractured?

sorry turkeyma, I got a bit excited there.

it was a disappointing australia day. got a bit caught up in the furore, just observing, but soul crushing nonetheless.

I'm just rehashing tired old debates about political correctness because I'm a right wing nutjob....sometimes. but my point was in the 80s 90s pretty much just the word multiculturalism was enough for all but the feeble minded to understand where we were, and needed to head. unfortunately multiculturalism developed into a mammoth of ridiculous rules, thankfully this has backed off of late so I've got my wish. however the hangover is in any debate, about anything at all it seems, degenerating into who and what is racist. I really don't mind if nice comfortable Australians want to argue with battlers and simpletons about semantics, but it doesn't seem real productive. aside from being a huge distraction from the real issues, it has also become very devisive and vitriolic from both sides, we all need to back off a bit.

some guy at the drum tried to explain about how devisive Australia day has become, and the ideologies fueling it. it was a nice try, he failed miserably trying to define the new right/left thing, but he was right about Australia day losing its innocence.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-27/noel-pearson-addresses-the-nati...

noel pearson gave a great speach the other day. he's not as good looking as stan grant, but he did have what was criticised as missing in stan's speach...solutions don't agree with all he said but his call to "the radical middle" is pretty much what I'm on about. modern debate is so weighted with ideology that workable solutiions are rarely found. maybe we're both just right wing nutjobs trying to appear centrist, but plenty on the left are saying exactly the same. more stott despoja's and xenophon's was his call, which I wholeheartedly agree with.

his model for Australia day was pretty good, instead of it being about one event and date, it should include three. the arrival, the existing culture, and the end of white australia policy/welcoming migrants. he said if we make it about those three then maybe aboriginals could overlook the date. he seemed very open and accomodating for the hard man he appears to be,, but maybe that's just his conservative side.

he said interesting stuff about tony abbott too, wishing he hadn't been ousted, I know they're friends, but still hard ro believe given how unworkable abbott was, wonder what the left think about that?

yeh ausrtalia is up there with the best, but we do seem to be becoming more devided, need to focus on solutions rather than what devides us. which means us all conceding our ideal may not be ideal for everyone

"Modern debate is so weighted with ideology that workable solutions are rarely found."

So true Sypkan.

Sypo, Ideology...
It comes.... And it goes..... They always fail, well 99% of the time... It's inherent human nature... Ideologies are destined to fail.... The only "ideology" that lasted longer than 5000 years or 100 generations was the primal hunter gatherer lifestyle.... But every other "ideology" dies... Power destroys it.... Communism is a classic example.

Lack of an healthy inclusive culture andym, being Australian can mean a lot of good things but there isn't a healthy dominant narrative we subscribe to. Take the french ideals of liberty and and the support for french culture they carry, how its rude to ignore other people in shops, cafes, bars etc due to the impact of the revolution driving a need for respect for every person. Or the Asians society cohesiveness and respect for elders. Australia is a bit of a hodge podge of ideas, cultures, values and just as likely lack thereof. Drink gambling depression, anti social behavior, I don't blame anyone, its the history we inherited and I think it's going to take a long time till we develop something more mature. Still an amazing country :)

We're wedged between a beautiful natural country with great economic prospects, a tragic aboriginal peoples situation, the remnants of british colonialism for a history and a 'frontiers mindset' plus a melting pot of global immigration. The fair go mateship stuff is good but doesn't really compare well to levels of social support found elsewhere.

I sort of agree mk1, but I sort of don't .

Contrary to the derision heaped upon Australia by the lockstep mimicry of the mass media, Australia does have defining characteristics.

Witness - The amateur SLSC movement - as prone to overreach as they are - are born of a devotion to the safety of others that will see people commit their free time to ensure that you and I go home safely from our trip to the beach.

Commitment of time is the real measure of any kind of commitment as time is the most valuable commodity any of us will ever posses.

The Welfare system- Not so long ago I was involved in a cultural awareness program associated with indigenous Australians and a sticking point for myself was the assertion that Aboriginal culture was superior to " white" culture due to the indigenous trait of taking in family members and kin - no matter how tenuous the blood tie - and looking after them as one of your own.

A bit of disapprobation involved when I pointed out that a net third of Australians tax appropriation goes toward the financial sustenance of people that they don't even know personally and will never receive any gratitude from through our welfare system.

Mate I could , and would , go on but I've got to go....good times are calling.

Yes Blowin, there's a lot of good but for me it exists more in pockets than a cultural experience. I love Australia and think the cultural cringe can be overblown, but at the same time there is a bit if truth in it which makes me question its automatic filing as 'greatest country in the world'. Top 10% for sure, some growth still possible.

I'ii tell you all what's what and what's not !

Ya all a bunch of surfer fuk's.......

Arrogant, selfish, me, me, I,I ,Me Me , fuck stains...

Who think surfing is the best, most amazing selfish sport in the the world...

Let alone the smallest spindleless legs, if ever seen in history.

Grow some balls;)

Blowie's a clubbie! Sea pig. Nuff said.

Thank fuck we are in agreement Talking Turkey.

Though to be honest, I thought you'd said enough a month or two ago.

My blow-fly analogy?