What's what?

"There’s nothing untoward with thinking that a tax bill of several million dollars for an individual is too onerous."

Well it means they've had a remarkable windfall, which further drives the inequality.

I take it you're comfortable with inequality and it's concomitant social issues then?

Aaaah Blowin, such generosity of spirit! If only wealth was generated in a direct relationship with social worth! All too often the relationship is inverse. Consider the wealth generated by the fossil fuel industry, or the wealth generated by over-fishing, destructive agricultural practices, rent seeking in all its insidious forms or that generated, abracadabra, by the finance industry. No social benefits there and immense environmental and social costs.

There’s nothing wrong with inequality itself. I think that humanity is hierarchical and this will be displayed in whatever manner we choose to distinguish ourselves from one another . In the modern era it is through monetary wealth whereas previously it was through sheer physical intimidation.

It’s when the basic precepts of human compassion are disregarded that a problem arises.

There is no problem with Gina Rhinehart profiting massively from her families efforts to utilise the iron ore of the Northwest as it benefits all humanity .

The problem occurs when she attempts to wrangle ALL of the benefits including a living wage from the workers who extract and process the ore and the nation from which she attempts to evade royalties paid on a commonwealth resource.

And BB - aside from mentioning all of the negatives of profitable human endeavour, you’ve failed to mention the positives which include ALL Australian governmental expenditure being funded by those very few Australians paying net tax. This includes ALL welfare , health, education and foreign aid.

Literally every single social gain comes from the industry of these individuals and companies in the first place.

Blowin I can see where you are coming from, however there are other benefits to getting a shitload of money, and these benefits can't be taxed. The one that screams out to me is political leverage. So if you come out on top of the Heirarchy, you may pay more tax, but you also get more likelihood to influence others/have influence over others for the betterment of your own needs. That is infinitely better value than taking the option of collecting a welfare check for doing fuck all for your country.

In a way, there's an indirect connection between how much tax you pay and how much say you have of how and where the tax gets spent. When you reach Gina Reinhart levels I would say the connection becomes direct in many cases.

For sure , Yocal.

But what if you’re not interested in politics and you just aren’t into giving 48 percent of everything you earn to the government to blow on Bronwyn’s helicopter rides *.

* Insert political cash splash du jour here.

Well I suppose so Blowin. I mean it's not like we have any social or environmental problems that might benefit for greater expenditure........ well not apart from the degradation of the (once) Great Barrier Reef, the significant shortage of water in the Murray-Darling, increasing coastal erosion, salination, introduced species, indigenous disadvantage, youth suicide, aged care, inadequate health services in many areas, inadequate child support services ......... so no real problems then.

I don’t understand your point , BB ?

Are you saying that no one should ever make money because of the ills that you mentioned?

Are you saying that every human endeavour that has returned a profit has only impacted humanity in a negative way ?

Today's discussion is understandable when you consider a good many western political leaders constantly praise the low tax ideal. It can be seen as an extension to the arguments presented in support of the trickle down and of entrepreneurship and individualism over the collect good. I too support the notion of reward for effort, to a point. It is however interesting to consider how the narrative adopted by many western political leaders differs from those of Asia and more specifically the Nordic countries. I'd add there is a world of difference how these countries tax their resources compared to even Australia e.g. those gas processing plants in Qld will pay little or no tax for decades compared to Norway that has a massive sovereign wealth fund.

Gina has never paid 48% tax

I’ve got nothing against paying a fair share of tax . It’s an essential part of a fair society.

It’s when the tax take becomes unfair that I have a problem with.

If you invent a cure for malaria that saves millions of lives immediately, yet you receive $1 for every person cured ....why should the government get half of everything you make ? Surely a cap is required.

Maybe the tax take should get regressive again past a certain point ?

As we all know , the result of the current tax regime only leads to the offshoring of money that would serve Australia far better by lighter taxing directly and allowing the money to recirculate within our economy.

This was the objective of Trumps’s tax cuts - as opposed to Australia’s tax cuts - it was the repatriation of at least $300B of profits that had been sequestered offshore to prevent overt taxation. With the cuts , the money flowed back to the US domiciles of the major corporations allowing the government to at least claw back some tax revenue and allow the entirety to re enter the economy.

When even the Australian Prime Minister flagrantly evades tax then you realise an alternative approach is required.

Better a smaller percentage of something than 50 percent of nothing.

"If you invent a cure for malaria that saves millions of lives immediately, yet you receive $1 for every person cured ....why should the government get half of everything you make ? Surely a cap is required."

FFS which part of the fu(king tax fu(king code are you getting that from.

Hint you should not do your own tax return because you have no fu(king idea.....followed by prime evil yell showing whites of the eyes

Just assuming 48 percent tax rates.

The point of my discussion isn’t to enter into an accounting bee.

Maybe I should get you to do my taxes ? I’m sick of doing my own.

Out of curiosity....what’s up with that figure ?

@Guy

I don't expect Stunet would care or be bothered, but i believe he can check if users are posting from same PC or Phone or something i think there is an ID number or something, anyway I give him total authority to make public which accounts a from my PC or phone because it's only one, I've got nothing to hide or need to change my profile name.

Even if i was to create another profile, you could pick my writing style straight away as i do know my sentence construction, grammar, spelling etc is pretty bad, its why i need to edit my post all the time.

Never been diagnosed but I'm 100% sure I'm dyslexic to some degree..

Positive ID on ID.

Only one account.

Out of curiosity....what’s up with that figure ?

There are lots of scenario's but try this.

OK you wake up one morning after a hard night a genus and make the amazing discovery mixing bex, cocaine with a dash of meth soaking in the best oily heads is a cure for malaria.

Costs millions to get the required research, approvals bring to production yada yada.

This means you would be a company to be able to raise the cash and a million other things etc not a single tax payer max 30% tax rate which you would not pay because of the deductions are endless see how much tax Chevron will pay for the NW gas fu(k all.

If you were to pay yourself from the company it would be run though a series of trusts all in the names of your illegitimate children and some others all leasing every possible item claimable.

The above is all abstract but you would pay as little as 10% up to maybe 35% possible more but unlikely.

An instance you may pay 50% is if you were to buy BIT at $0.01 and cash in at $10.00 inside of 12 months capital gains kick in, hold for over 12 months it becomes 25%.

:D

I focus -“ An instance you may pay 50% is if you were to buy BIT at $0.01 and cash in at $10.00 inside of 12 months capital gains kick in,”

That’s what I was referring to , the other example- HIV cure by an individual- was a pathetic example as I couldn’t be fucked thinking up a better analogy at that stage because all I really wanted to discuss was a maximum tax rate for individuals.

Even if your tax rate was 5 percent you could be paying millions per year depending on how extensive your earnings.

Let me get this straight blowin, you're sort of asking whether top tax rate of 45% is too much personal income tax for an individual to pay to the government? Are you suggesting that high income earners should pay less because it may be likely that they could spend their own hard earned, hard won, hard inherited personal income, better than the government can?

Perhaps, if our world was focussed on philanthropy and altruism instead of rampant materialism and selfishness, I would agree. But to me it seems you're asking, are we ok that rich people pay less tax so that their wealth trickles down to us poor folk? ?

I reckon if you're paying millions on a 5% income tax, you can well afford to pay more millions up to at least 50%, and I wouldn't hesitate to vote for that. If you turned $50000 into $177 million, I can't see why you shouldn't pay 50% tax. After all, as a result of investment into the share market you've made your money literally out of thin air. How many millions do you need to live a wealthy life?

What we should be asking is are we ok that hundreds of multi national companies earn billions from Australians and pay no tax whatsoever.

Oh and Crypto, I'm impressed with your last post at bottom of last page. Not one exclamation mark! It's a good thing too, because I was getting close to reporting you to the Department of Grammer for excessive use and even abuse of 'exclamation marks'.

However, in a 'nutshell', I do agree with "Someone will know how to create a better system that gives equal worth to all parts, and provides fulfilling, healthy lives to all. If we made it a priority."

Blowing with the right accountant/investment strategy high income earners pay SFA you may not have instant access to the all cash but long term you would be well under 48%

Swellnetonians Melbourne Cup Sweepstakes...

[3] Qld Betting Tax... is running at 15 to 1 returning 45c in the Dollar
[2] All pray Strike lasts forever... is running at 10 to 1 returning 100c in the dollar
[5] Mr Whippy...flogged the hell outta ... [4] Greedy Pollie Pigs... for the trifecta

[6] All Bets are off in Qld... sticks a fork into [7] Overdone Fashion Stakes.
[1] Went Worth it... had a stumble coming into the main straight.
[8] Don't bet the House ...played the numbers game
[9] Lucky Last... runs unlucky 2nd last as always.
[10] Get Your Money Back [10] No such thing as last [10] Always Read the Fine Print ...Shit!

Blowin,
So to understand your reasoning are you of the belief that:

-If the tax rate is lower, people will be less likely to evade paying it, even if ways to evade tax still exist?

and either:
-Tax could be reduced because the current government spend is too high anyway,
or
-Tax could be reduced because the economy will be stimulated from the increase in business and so everyone has a better chance at being better off?

I think if you’re the type who wants to evade your financial responsibilities to the nation you’ll try to evade tax irrespective of the rate - look at most of the companies that would have benefited from the LNP’s big business tax cuts , they don’t pay any already.

And if there are legitimate tax deductions available, you’d be a fool to not utilise them.

I just think that the individual tax obligations can be too high at times. Why should any person, regardless of circumstance have to pay over $500K in tax ...it’s absolute theft.

Yes , government could always REDIRECT expenditure away from some of the ridiculous largess and waste they are guilty of , but I believe that the government probably needs at least as much as it currently receives to do the job of government properly if they ever chose to do it.

Big Business tax cuts as per a trump won’t work here because the large businesses currently pay fuck all and if they had less onerous tax requirements it makes no difference because all their money goes straight offshore , unlike the USA where companies WANT to be domiciled. There is nothing here for corporations, just their franchises. The big businesses that are Australian are actually majority owned by foreign shareholders.

I think that personal tax cuts by way of a ceiling on maximum tax paid would probably have a flow on effect on the economy. But that’s not why I believe in such a maximum tax , it’s just that currently some in Australia just pay too much tax.

What about this then, if someone can demonstrate that they've consistently paid all their high personal tax over the last 'x' number of years, and (to satisfy BB's concerns of distribution to areas of need that aren't served by the market) have donated 'x' amount to recognised charitable causes, they are entitled to receive a ceiling for that year that the above has been met.

I reckon that could potentially apply to business tax also? Good intent should be rewarded

id rather that after giving $500K of your income to the government you could then tell them to get fucked from that point onwards.

No wonder people dodge taxes when they’re hit up for millions of dollars each year.

Haha true. I like the freedom of that.

Even if I escaped to the hippie communes south of Coffs to unshackle myself from the government's reach, I hear they have succumbed to a state and government structure, but they call it 'community center' instead of 'Courts' and 'taxes' are rebranded as 'community produce'.

I think the 'Tax' of society is inescapable. So too is the existence of inequality of outcome regardless of equal opportunity, so too is society's drive to ensure that nobody gets a raw deal while ensuring we are rewarded for our extra efforts.

This all sounds like Costello getting out the hanky for the Forgotten People.

'I think the 'Tax' of society is inescapable. So too is the existence of inequality of outcome regardless of equal opportunity, so too is society's drive to ensure that nobody gets a raw deal while ensuring we are rewarded for our extra efforts.'

80,000 years says it isn't. North Sentinel Islanders, side by side. Same planet, same solar system. Different thoughts. 60,000 years.

Most couldn't conceive or believe a four minute mile. Some did.

Imagine telling the worlds best, the gun heart surgeon, that the cleaners didn't roll up, and that the op theatre is still dirty. Or that the no one could be stuffed digging for the ore needed for the equipment that he needs. Including his car. And the factory making the tyres on it. All the people required to get there. 'Thanks way back there... suckers!!!!! Stuck cunts!! What you... new heart... fuck off, ya dreamin' cunt... you can't afford me... now hurry up and load me bags on... I'm goin' surfin'!!!!'

'Yeh really... oops... fuck sorry about that... jeeze she snapped like a fuckin' toothpick!!! Shooda put another fuckin' sticka on it!!!'

Its never worked. Never will. Spartacus infinitus, now playing, round 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,326. Again. In a nutshell. Doesn't work. liz and phil's lot don't mind a bit of cannon fodder but. In a nut shell!!?? Again.

Holy shit - I agree with something the LNP once said . Calling them the forgotten people was asking for trouble.

Yocal - Where are the hippies south of Coffs ?

IMHO theres a few problems with tax.

1. Those that should be paying shitloads somehow avoid paying what they should through all clever tactics or loop holes etc and then everyday people end up paying to much because they don't have the ability to avoid doing so.

The way around this is to have a set percentage that you/companies have to pay no matter what.

2. I think its fair to assume the government just like councils are irresponsible in how they manage their funds, so need more money than they really should or just don't get bang for buck.

Wasn't there a bloke on here that used to be a CPA? Gary something-or-other?

Y'know someone that would have half a clue what they're talking about?

Beggar thy neighbour!

Anyway, here's God's lonely man...

https://twitter.com/HarlowGavin/status/1054959057893765123

(remember kids, Google is your friend!)

Real life example

Fred was a sole trader/ tradesman.
He had a company and family trust.
He was a director of the company but the trust was in the name of his frail elderly parents and wife.
All of Fred's income was paid into the company and the company paid it to the trust. The trust paid Fred.
Fred never was paid enough by the trust to pay tax.
The trust paid his wife a dispersement, again below the limit you have tax.
Fred's children were all paid by the trust (below the tax limit) while in high school for "theoretically" working with Fred.
By keeping his and his wife's income low (via the trust) and by Fred's kids ("working/nudge nudge") for Fred and being paid the right amount by the trust all of Fred's kids qualified for youth allowance while at high school and university.

There is more to Fred that is too complicated to even begin to discuss here, a particularly dodgy person, but his trust not only allowed him to avoid tax on income he earned but it also allowed the redistribution of that income to family members (tax free) and further, it allowed all of his kids to qualify for government welfare payments.

Interesting but sad fact Fred was a God fearing man, belonged to a fundamentalist church and Fred's trust were big Sunday donors. Wasn't too straight when it came to telling the truth either ....... I could go on about Fred and many like him who cooked the system in his favour, for a while at least!

We've all known a few Freds Guy. Standard operating procedure for many ....... and they still manage to whinge about the tiny amount of tax they actually do pay because they are "creating employment" ....... for their family if no-one else.

Haha facto. It appears that sometimes actions speak louder than no words.

It appears some are missing the point.

Even after deductions etc some people pay hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars in tax.

Many , many , many times what the valuable few net tax payers contribute.

Of course I don’t expect you to sympathise because of petty jealousy, but doesn’t your objective mind ever think ....yeah , they’re getting fucked over ?

And they also take home many, many times what the average person earns.

Anyway, a percent is a percent is a percent.

Plus, it's hard to cry 'hard done by' when you're clearing a few million a year, every year.

Call it jealousy or whatever you will, but there are far bigger problems that we should be concerned with.

Some wannabe politician's wage and tax ideas from years back:

"Enact a maximum wage. Great idea. When I got it aired on Politically Incorrect I was roundly booed by audience and guests alike. The host told the viewers I was crazy before he even said my name. People assume they are the ones who will be hurt when the big bad government hits the middle class with another evil tax.

So let’s be generous: No taxes up to $100,000; after that it’s payback time. And emphasize the pay-back—free health care, free education (including amnesty on student loans), free transportation (including air travel), and more.

Revenue will be used for the many costly programs in our platform and long overdue public works projects; also vastly increased subsidies for the arts, especially community radio and television; subsidies for independent organic farms, hemp and kenaf farms (to end dependence on paper from forests), and solar and windmill farms to decrease our fossil fuel gluttony.

Urban blight can be further eradicated by legalizing and subsidizing squatters who fix up long-vacant buildings. This has worked well in Europe when given a chance; think of what it could do for places like St. Louis or Richmond, Va. Speed up conversion to electric buses, trucks, a national high-speed rail system; and, of course, electric cars.

We don’t need a flat tax, but a flattening tax, to truly level the playing field. After all, what causes more damage to the planet, drug addiction or wealth addiction? Hopefully the maximum wage will raise enough money to fill the cups of everyone who makes less than $100,000 so we’ll all be even. And can we please find a clearer, sexier term than 'single-payer health care' next time it’s a ballot initiative?

We must close all hemorrhaging tax loopholes that benefit giant corporations, including organized religion.

Taxpayers should also be given a multiple choice of the 10 or 15 major areas of government to decide what percentage of their tax money goes where. My guess is that education and the environment will go straight up, and the arms race and prison expansion will go straight down."

Forget the candidate. May have to Google.

@ Blowin

I agree with you on most things, but if someone does pay hundreds of thousands or millions in tax, I'm sorry but i can't feel sorry for them because they obviously earn a million or more a year.

But yeah tax does feel like legal theft sometimes, personally as a tradie i now just ensure i stay under 75K turn over as really can't be fucked with GST and bas crap.

BTW. this is the rare instance where i agree with all of which Guy, Stunet and Factum have posted...a rare trifecta.

NEWS:
Apparently money no longer grows on trees as in ye olde Paper Money.
New way is to simply slice some new Bills off your Piggy Bank as in bacon.

Since Mid '90's Oz Mint has squished up Cows/Sheep/Pigs for slippery shine on banknotes.
Vegans are going spazz
Religious Folk are going Spazz.
Aussie meatlovers also gone spazz...
Reckon a kilo of the local Butchers banknotes still can't get you a kg of Bacon.

Blowin - If you're ever next down that way, south of Coffs has a few interesting communities, some of which identify as the 'orange people'. One I literally stumbled into following cues from "Reader's Digest Guide to the Australian Coastline" while trying to find a secluded headland to scour for surf.

Bellingen is the Mid-North Coast's equivalent to byron bay, but much nicer to visit in my opinion.

Bellingen is a hoax Blowin.
Only gets waves in a massive east swell and only after a lot of rain.

.

This recent discussion on tax seems to have missed the point that whether its an individual or corporation stability of government and proper systems of governance are valued highly valued by the seriously wealthy. Outside totalitarian states proper government can only exist where the legal system works for all i.e. coherent well functioning and law abiding countries/communities. That all comes at a cost and that cost is taxation.

Before globalisation wealthy individuals and corporations operated under a "social licence" within their home community or country. Part of that social licence was to pay a fair share of tax for the common good.

Globalisation has seen this social licence evaporate and now the global flight of capital/money to low tax destinations/havens is very well established. A case studies can be found in looking at The City of London (a separate legal entity to the UK predating the English parliament) and the State of Delaware in the US where most of the US' multinational companies are based.

This is why any attempt to properly reign in tax avoidance (remember Joe Hockey's big plans?) will come to nought because no US government will enact laws forcing its multinational companies to pay more tax in the countries they operate in. Quite the opposite you have Trump encouraging that behaviour with his recent tax cuts.

It is also why then the next crash comes it will be long and severe as governments are now over loaded in debt and have no ability to properly tax corporations to repay it. It is individuals, like in Greece, that will bear the pain.

So what is needed is a way to return that "social licence" people and corporations once had but in today's world that's wild thinking.

Agree eat-your-veges, not much to choose from down there surf-wise aside from a few spots that are dependent on good banks to be worth venturing from the north coast down to.

Bellingen town & the shire is really beautiful, which is what I was mostly referring to (20 mins from the beach).

I’ll go check them out one day.

Cheers

All true Guy. The Panama Papers revealed that the total amount of tax avoided in Africa was greater than the total national debts of ALL African countries. Think about what that means in terms of human lives!

An expert guide to Brexit:

Not gunna happen. Scotland and Ireland will leave the UK leaving England and Wales isolated.

Guy the DUP who are in power in Northern Ireland are not going to leave the UK. They want a hard border as they realise anything else would increase pressure to join the Republic. This is a huge problem and one of the stumbling blocks to an agreement. May and the EU are in agreement that a soft border is workable but the DUP have the numbers to bring the Conservative government down. If a hard border is put in place this risks a return to the troubles, as they euphemistically call last century's outbreak of violence across Ireland.

More broadly the problem with Brexit is that no-one knows what it is. The negotiations are not making progress. As the date approaches for a "no deal", factories are shutting down as they do not know what the effects on their supply chains and distribution are likely to be. A large number of British citizens who have Irish or other European ancestry are obtaining EU passports. In terms of the process, that video is pretty much on the money ...... it was never supposed to actually happen.

The saddest thing is that, after a month travelling around, the U.K. has really serious problems that can only worsen, at least in the short term, after Brexit. Homelessness, poverty, declining standards of health and education. Membership of the EU could not solve these problems with a government fixated on austerity for its own sake, but EU funding has made a huge difference in many places.

Yeah, you are probably right about Ireland but Scotland and all that North Sea oil and gas? The Scots voted to stay and will most certainly want a new independence referendum if May proceeds. Yeah, outside London, Scotland and some other smaller growth areas the UK is economically depressed. Those places haven't recovered since Thatcher as successive governments from each side have ignored their plight, not going to be solved by leaving the EU thou. Will May want to be the UK PM that seeks Scotland leave the UK? The Tories are in knots like here and in the US, bankrupted narrative.