Labor leadership
Nick, what's with the vitriol contained in every single post of yours? Aren't you able to rationally discuss these issues without hyperventilating?
Give him a break Ben, nick3 is only singing from the same song sheet as his conservative idols. Never try an win and argument with rational debate nick as you are sure to lose. Stick to abuse, sloganeering, and slander- it's in your DNA!
I haven't found anyone who can have a rational debate. Does a rational debate mean i have to sing from the same page.
No one on this site has backed up their stance with any rationality.
Do you think for one minute thermo that you uneducated ( in the real world of life ) left wing extremists raise my pulse over 60.
You are just a parasite that i just love playing with.
All you need to grow up my little children.
Time to take your medication and go back under your rock and have a long sleep. You will feel much better, here's some warm milk to have with your pills ......... sleep now.
I think it is time floyd you take a dose of common sense.
And while we are at it. I think all you wannabe surfers go and get jobs to pay for your labor/greens spending.
Then go over to the countries that these economic border jumpers come from and help liberate them from their problems.
nick wrote: "Then go over to the countries that these economic border jumpers come from and help liberate them from their problems."
What like we did in Iraq and Afganistan? That's where a lot of the boat people are coming from. Useless wars started the last time the Coalition were in power. What was achieved? At least Obama killed bin Laden! Howard, Bush and Blair should be tried as war criminals!
Why has Gillard just given up? I just don't get it. Kevin Rudd undermined and undermined and undermined until he got his own selfish, vindictive way back. Federal Labor have hung her out to dry? Lets forget about the Gillard prime ministership and now focus on the future. Rudd claiming all the credit for Gillards hard work WTF? what an egomaniac!! Leopards don't change their spots..ever..only an amount of time before someone hasn't made Kevvy's toast properly and he flips out! He has got to be the only politician who has gotten away with murder! and lets face it..if it wasn't for his policy..his directive..his pink batt stimulus anyone else would be in jail. Ask yourself this question..if it were Tony Abbott who delivered that that (pink batt) policy what would you have to say?(honestly?)
York maybe you should have gone. I agree we should just leave Afghanistan to the Taliban and leave it up to those young men that come here to sort out their own problems.
Hey YS (or anyone else),
Did you read the Quarterly Essay by Mark Latham, 'Not Dead Yet'? I picked it up last night and made a good start on it. He's a surprising fella, is Latham. Had him pegged as an agent provocateur after 'The Latham Diaries' was published, and as a cheap showman during his work for 60 Minutes, but his analysis of Labor party woes and vision for a post-Left future is impressive stuff.
Hey Stu I did read his response to correspondence to "Not Dead Yet" where he summarised his vision for the future of the Labor Party and I have to say I have a new found respect for Mark Latham. I can now understand why the party chose him as their leader in 2004. It's a pity other aspects of his personality made him unsuitable to be PM. Llike breaking a taxi drivers arm in a scuffle, plus appearing to try and break John Howard's hand while shaking it in the 2004 election campaign!
But when you consider we may soon have a PM in Tony Abbott who punched the wall on either side of a female rivals head when he lost a ballot to be a student representative whilst in university, Latham is by no means unique in his character failings.
Judging by Rudd's recent moves to reform preselections for selecting Labor candidates I'm sure he read and took on some of Latham's ideas even though he probably wouldn't credit Latham for any of it.
Neil Lawrence Passed away while surfing in the Maldives RIP
Neil was the creative behind the Kevin 07 election campaign.
one cycle ends, a new one begins, vale brother, may u bring love and empowerment to all.
“I do not expect you to agree with me,” Burnside starts, which is probably fair enough, before declaring that although “ the current Prime Minister is the worst in our history... [and] the current Government is probably the worst in our history... we also have the least effective Opposition in living memory.”
“Labor today looks like a weak centre-right party which does not believe in itself. A party that believes in nothing except power will end up with nothing at all.”
Shats....
swellnet abbott thread,
2/10/2014 - dawg - "Shorten has no spine"....
29/11/14 - dawg - "Shorten is a liability.... Abbott would be already gone if Labor had a 1/2 decent leader"
1/12/14 - dawg - "Labor...... Who was there when Gillard knifed Rudd??? Who handed Gillard the knife??? Then who was also there when Rudd Knifed Gillard??? And who handed Rudd the knife??? Good old Bill....."
ETC ETC ETC.............
"It doesn't what you say.....
They never listen anyway" ;)
the 47th ALP national conference ! is it a BYO(knife)?....and don't dare arrive by helicopter!
lets hope someone brings a knife
its the only way we'll get rid of Abbott, this man is dangerous
Well, floyd.... What's your opinion of Bill "tony lite" Shorten now?
sheepy, my opinion has been stated and remains unchanged. whatever labor comes up with in policy I say standby for "opinion" pieces (not news reports) in all the murdoch tabloids that it make the recent climate change forum contributions here on SW look adult.
Now issues worthy of discussion:
*what the reserve bank governor really thinks of abbott's current budget projections (not good); and
* bill shorten's announcement on renewables and greg hunt's massively shrill overreaction & the coal industry's predicable response
*abbott's tax summit
nah, lets just focus on personalities, its easier.
I'm not talking about personality, floyd.... i'm talking policy.... You know, the policy thats hot off the press making news on the abc, guardian, plus news/l and fairfax TODAY.... "Tony lite's" boat people policy......?????
Shorten's suggestion to keep the 'turn back boats policy' is interesting. To his credit, he sees that it works - lives are saved. But I can't see this getting thru the caucus and of course politically makes him look weak. Where he maybe to trump this debate is if he can find another or better solution than Manus Island. Not easy. Shorten is loosing ground but the dilemma for Labor is - who else ?
Lives are not saved, Tony...
SD, the Burnside quote is telling:
“Labor today looks like a weak centre-right party which does not believe in itself. A party that believes in nothing except power will end up with nothing at all.”
As I've opined on the Abbott thread, the Right faction of the Labor Party is toxic, especially the NSW mob...it is 'the weak centre-right party that does not believe in itself'.
I heard Fitzgibbon today...FFS. That pox on Australian society and the Labor party, Graham Richo Richardson, and his "whatever it takes" political philosophy of yore, now totally unmediated & untempered, has a lot to fucken answer for.
The Labor party are notoriously slow learners. Abbott the abomination for another term? You bet you are - you bet I am (there's the LNPs election slogan right there!)
Poor fella, my cuntry.
At its heart politics is the art of compromise.
If the Labor and Greens had compromised with the then opposition leader (Malcolm Turnbull) we would have had an ETS years and years ago and no Tony Abbott.
All politicians should be allowed to change their mind if new facts or circumstances arise e.g. Julia Gillard's "their will be no carbon pricing ...".
The ability to change your position on an issue could be a sign of strength and not weakness, as its always portrayed in the media (inc social).
Its political ideology that gets in the way of political compromise e.gs.
* The Tea Party in the US getting Republican candidates to sign pledges to never ever increase taxes. WTF.
* There will be no increases to GST or no alteration to negative gearing taxation rules or tax concessions to wealthy superannuation accounts.
You can either be pure to your convictions and remain in opposition or you can compromise and remain relevant and possibly put yourself in a position to win government or a few more seats e.g. the recent improvements to the Greens under the new leadership.
You know I think Abbott is toxic but the thing is over 70 of his parliamentary colleagues are in lock step with him so the problem is way bigger than the leader. The same in many ways can be said of Labor. I just see years of more bumbling through before a real leader emerges. In the meantime Australia's sanity rests with the Greens and cross benches.
Just my opinion, you're welcomed to yours.
Yep... S&B... Yep.... Sad days.....
Tony..... The coalition policy has not stopped deaths at sea.... It has shifted deaths at sea.....
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/12/fears-up-to-6000-south-east...
As you can see, asylum seekers are now trying to get to other countries by boat as they know they can't get here....."Saving lives" is a crass political slogan..... But it seems to work with the troglodytes.... "Stopping the deaths" and "shifting the deaths" are 2 totally different things... "
well said floyd, compromise is essential in all walks of life and should be applauded, as should changing your stance because you have more data to assist new changes for the betterment of all.
immigration- nationalism is only possible because of humanism- human beings in need- this land has plenty of space, plenty of regional communities that would benefit from new residents.
focus on our similiarities (sp)- not our differences. i can see it now, the aboriginals , saying, hey cookie u boat bloke, we sending u to nauru, take a kangaroo!!!!
sheepd … yes, its fair to say our current leadership is not too enlightening. But you have got it wrong on the SEAsia boat issue. Those refugees were not heading to Aus, nor planning to. The simple fact is, and Shorten seems to agree is that turning back boats hence stopping them has saved lives. And it has, simple. Forget the politics of the issue for a moment and look at the issue. Obviously, world wide migration / refugee processing is a bigger problem but thats not part of this discussion.
naaah, davo...... floyd writes "The ability to change your position on an issue could be a sign of strength and not weakness"
All well and good changing position when the position is wrong.... But changing position like Shorten has on death shifting boat people is crass, populist, dishonest, and playing to the racist underbelly of this country.... Politically, it has also taken the heat off Bronwyn Chopper Bishop, and put Labor fair square in the firing line...
Shorten is the best thing Abbott has going for him....
tonybarber wrote:sheepd … yes, its fair to say our current leadership is not too enlightening. But you have got it wrong on the SEAsia boat issue. Those refugees were not heading to Aus, nor planning to. The simple fact is, and Shorten seems to agree is that turning back boats hence stopping them has saved lives. And it has, simple. Forget the politics of the issue for a moment and look at the issue. Obviously, world wide migration / refugee processing is a bigger problem but thats not part of this discussion.
mate, re read my post... I didn't say they were heading for Australia... I said exactly what you've highlighted, that now they can't head to Australia, and therefore head to other countries and end up drowning anyway..... "death shift".....
No lives are being saved... They're just dying elsewhere....
very well said floyd!
This is shorten's finest moment.
Finally showing the required mettle to be leader. Not by following Abbott's dark path, but by acknowledging Labor got something wrong. People are tired of this politics of denial. This stay on message tactic, where you must talk around and over reality to avoid admitting fault. Whether it is Bishop denying she is a pompous cow who made poor judgements, Swan denying changing economic realities, or Abbott denying responsibility for just about everything!! It is an insult to the intelligence of the public and impedes progress.
And what choice do Labor have anyway? Throw out Abbott's way and return to thousands of people arriving? While it was achieved with some seriously over zealous policies and methods, Tony did stop the boats. It is the one promise he has managed to keep, and keep it well. I don't think even liberals thought he would actually stop the boats altogether, but he pretty much has. In the very remote chance Labor win the next election, whatever they do from here they are fucked. dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
About climate change, too much good stuff in those twisted pages to shut it down. As petty as the blindboy v roy thing got, it wasn't that bad, not until whatever it was that finished it anyway.
I thought blindboy was doing a good job of trying to keep things civil despite the constant attacks. A little snide and passive aggressive perhaps, but trying nonetheless. At the same time the issues and questions that roy was raising were not unreasonable. There has been too much rounding up, too many doomsday scenarios etc. While these do not undermine the whole body of science they do raise doubt, and rightly so. There are too many holes in the science to present it as gospel and deride anyone willing to question it. But that is what it inevitably amounts to as people bunker down behind their beliefs.
Radio National last weekend had an interesting interviewee comparing how the debate panned out in England compared to Australia. She said England had a debate on whether people wanted a greener future or not, a greener future won. Whereas Australia has this furious debate about whether Anthropogenic climate change exists or not, a very vitriolic debate, a debate aimed at pie in the sky stuff, and the pie fell down and splatted everywhere, and now there is a big clean up, a big expensive clean up with few positive outcomes.
I've said it before but there is only so much good will to go around, only so much available energy for environmental matters, we blew a heap of it arguing about ideologies. pretty sure they don't change easily
Sheepdog wrote:naaah, davo...... floyd writes "The ability to change your position on an issue could be a sign of strength and not weakness"
All well and good changing position when the position is wrong.... But changing position like Shorten has on death shifting boat people is crass, populist, dishonest, and playing to the racist underbelly of this country.... Politically, it has also taken the heat off Bronwyn Chopper Bishop, and put Labor fair square in the firing line...
Shorten is the best thing Abbott has going for him....
I also dislike the last 10 years when it comes to refugee policy sheepy, the politics of exclusion and greed, an appeal to the lowest common denominator in our community. Nothing to do with lives, forget that BS. For it to change there needs to be a proper regional solution where sovereign nations work together with respect. For Shorten/Labor to be in the game they need to be in government. Don't need to be a rocket science to know what the tabloids would do to Labor if they stuck with the current policy.
So are you endorsing this? More of the same? Well then we are fucked, floyd, if a decent bloke like you is willing to dance with the devil so to speak......
What is needed is a Labor leader with guts..... Someone who will point out that not one asylum seeker has been "saved" via turnback policy.... The deaths have just been shifted..... (been on to abc fact check about this floyd - keep your eyes open)....
Re' tabloids.... Yer yer.... well they were all over chopper Bishop...... But then blurge shunter opened his fuckn mouth...... Timing..... Not Bills strongest skill.... But what is his strongest skill? Ohh that's right - knifing Labor PMs.....
Sheepdog wrote:So are you endorsing this? More of the same? Well then we are fucked, floyd, if a decent bloke like you is willing to dance with the devil so to speak......
What is needed is a Labor leader with guts..... Someone who will point out that not one asylum seeker has been "saved" via turnback policy.... The deaths have just been shifted..... (been on to abc fact check about this floyd - keep your eyes open)....
Re' tabloids.... Yer yer.... well they were all over chopper Bishop...... But then blurge shunter opened his fuckn mouth...... Timing..... Not Bills strongest skill.... But what is his strongest skill? Ohh that's right - knifing Labor PMs.....
FFS. No I'm not sheepy. I grew up in Fitzroy and the schools were full of Italians, Greeks and Turks. The local pool had a "Aqua Profonda" warning down the deep end in deference to the large local Italian community. My best mate's dad ran a Italian Deli and I had the pleasure of sampling cheeses and sausages of all types at a time when my mum served spaghetti out of a tin and dad called all "foreigners" wogs. My sisters married men from Italian families. I love cultural diversity and not for one nano second am I worried about the latest wave of migrants to this country. In 2 generations the families of the most newly arrived (muslim) migrants will be more Australian than us. Sure they are different but they all want a house with a yard and a lawn and a nice car in the drive, just like us all.
IMO no matter what Labor does they will not win the next election. Do they really deserve it? No. Does Abbott? No ...... its just part of the ebb and flow sheepy, like the tides. What we both want is not here yet, maybe in 5 years, maybe in 10 years from now. In the meantime we have the Greens and cross benches to sort out the fractured debates like refugees and climate ...
"IMO no matter what Labor does they will not win the next election. Do they really deserve it? No. Does Abbott? No ...... its just part of the ebb and flow sheepy, like the tides."
I'm reminded of a Chomsky quote: "These are human institutions: We can affect them. They're not laws of nature we are talking about."
Abbott and his gang deserve a lot of things but they don't deserve to win elections without proper scrutiny. Having said that, what I do find increasingly bleak is the idea that we, as Australians, deserve Abbott.
Another quote that springs to mind (Donald Horne this time):
"Australia is a lucky country, run by second-rate people who share its luck."
Horne wrote that during the Ming Dynasty.
Labor on the current 'same same but different' path it seems to be treading deserves what it gets.
Nothing.
Or power without glory.
(one in the same?)
Oi!
Now for some bunyip dreaming:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/17/postcapitalism-end-of-capit...
Floyd.... Labor could sweep to power if they weren't the "me too" party..... Shorten has to go... That's a start.....
The dawg and floyd take over Labor.....
The dawg comes out with these policies and strategies....
A full investigation into how much land/homes have been sold to china etc.... A line will be drawn in the sand...
All household solar panels and renewable energy to be tax free for 10 years, to encourage take up and create employment...
Laws adjusted so Multinationals pay fair share of tax.
Baby bonus, first home owners grants, and other forms of middle class welfare to be wound back.
Gst to be increased to only 12%, with the extra 2% going to health ( aboriginal health in particular) and education.
Religious private schools to be self funded, with government support axed.
Pull out of Isis war, not winnable...
Full and immediate disclosure of all political donations - available on gov' website.
Full and immediate disclosure of all members expenses -available on gov' website...
That's in week one, floyd..... ;)
Guys, I think we all want the same thing. On a brighter note, if its true we follow Uncle Sam its highly likely the 2 terms of Bush will be followed by a minimum of 16 years of Democrats ....
That Donald Horne quote about the lucky country is the most accurate obsevartion of Australian life I've ever read.
i like that list sheepdog, the question is why doesn't labor like such a list?
that list could define labor as a real alternative, but no we get more of the same
the ISIS thing is particularly pertinent, plenty of articles saying they're winning hearts and minds by providing stability where the US coalition has failed, scary times ahead
I'm not really sure why people keep harping on about Labour.
They have nothing to offer.
Like a mash between the Greens and the Liberals.
Too left AND too right at the same time.
Useless.
Start again with a party that represents the workers, not the unions and itself.
you're dead right blowin, thats why they're having this identity/relevance crisis shatner is on about.
but unfortunately they are the only real alternative to abbott, this where they have to sort their shit out. they're all getting paid shitloads to fail australians, even if they can't get in, at least be a productive opposition
Sheepdog wrote:Floyd.... Labor could sweep to power if they weren't the "me too" party..... Shorten has to go... That's a start.....
The dawg and floyd take over Labor.....
The dawg comes out with these policies and strategies....A full investigation into how much land/homes have been sold to china etc.... A line will be drawn in the sand...
All household solar panels and renewable energy to be tax free for 10 years, to encourage take up and create employment...
Laws adjusted so Multinationals pay fair share of tax.
Baby bonus, first home owners grants, and other forms of middle class welfare to be wound back.
Gst to be increased to only 12%, with the extra 2% going to health ( aboriginal health in particular) and education.
Religious private schools to be self funded, with government support axed.
Pull out of Isis war, not winnable...
Full and immediate disclosure of all political donations - available on gov' website.
Full and immediate disclosure of all members expenses -available on gov' website...That's in week one, floyd..... ;)
Pull out of Isis war, not winnable…
Ive been watched a few documentaries of late (Vice) on the whole USA in middle east stuff, god opens your eyes, not only is it not winnable we have really fucked up and are just adding fuel to the fire.
Yep, indo....... It's freekn unbelievable... Go further back, mate..... Go back to the russian/afghani war.... See who was supplying the taliban against the ruskies.... See how the taliban became a force......
Yes, our country is now officially a democracy in name only - our votes count for shit.
I'm pretty sure it was a US army vet and ex- green beret by the name of John Rambo that gave the mujahideen the edge over the Russians during their little tussle.
One particular encounter comes to mind when he shot down a massive Soviet helicopter gunship with a single explosive arrow.
It was his inspirational exploits that tipped the war in the favour of the Afghanies and saw the Russians heading back to Moscow with their tail between their legs.
Of course this kind of information is mostly classified.
Blowin wrote:I'm pretty sure it was a US army vet and ex- green beret by the name of John Rambo that gave the mujahideen the edge over the Russians during their little tussle.
One particular encounter comes to mind when he shot down a massive Soviet helicopter gunship with a single explosive arrow.
It was his inspirational exploits that tipped the war in the favour of the Afghanies and saw the Russians heading back to Moscow with their tail between their legs.
Of course this kind of information is mostly classified.
really??? that's not what the campaign in C.O.D. black ops 2 reckons......
Well, it seems that many here are not happy. You seem to be sitting on the sideline throwing stones. Maybe join a team and see if you can contribute. This is still a free country. Not a bad place considering what else is out there.
Tony Barber...apt pseudonym. With the TPP and all the FTAs flying around lately, and the LNP tripping over themselves to sign away, Australia's the grand prize in the 'Sale of the Century'?
Maybe Tones, you should change it to Victoria No-Principles! Boom! Here all week, try the (live-traded) veal...
Sheepdog wrote:naaah, davo...... floyd writes "The ability to change your position on an issue could be a sign of strength and not weakness"
All well and good changing position when the position is wrong.... But changing position like Shorten has on death shifting boat people is crass, populist, dishonest, and playing to the racist underbelly of this country.... Politically, it has also taken the heat off Bronwyn Chopper Bishop, and put Labor fair square in the firing line...
Shorten is the best thing Abbott has going for him....
sheepy, u too quick to express your opinion than really read my comment.
changing your perspective because you have new data that helps all is a good thing.
i wasnt talking about shorten. just so you know, i dont watch any tv or read papers anymore, so i dont have any idea whats going on- not that i did in the first place mind you- i must say i am happier for it.
Sheepy, love your policy list. Totally concur.
The thing is, it's almost common sense, how hard could it be to implement?
But I couldn't imagine either party doing so, too many vested interests.
Dave... i read your comment... And I wasn't too quick to express my opinion... perhaps you didn't notice earlier I directly asked Floyd about Shortens compromise on asylum seekers.... He wrote this;
"At its heart politics is the art of compromise".
"The ability to change your position on an issue could be a sign of strength and not weakness, as its always portrayed in the media"
You responded to floyd with this;
"well said floyd, compromise is essential in all walks of life and should be applauded, as should changing your stance because you have more data to assist new changes for the betterment of all."
Even though you weren't talking about Shorten, Floyd and I were... That's what the conversation was about.... Perhaps next time state that your post is generic, and not related to the topic being discussed..... I'm good, but I'm not a mind reader bro ;)
And note, I did write re' "compromise"; "All well and good changing position when the position is wrong".....
Cheers, hippy....
Zen, sypo - The SANDY party - Surfers against Nutters, Dickheads, and Yahoos Party lol
I'm alikin' your policies there sheepdog. Sadly, they make far too much sense for either of the current mobs to go with.
As for the electorate, cause they're ones you've got to get to vote for you! Well ... I would just say you'd need to be one hell of a salesman! Speaking of which a name change is in order, SANDY party I can deal with. But Sheepdog for PM, Vote 1 Sheepdog?? Not sure that boat's gunna float.
Not saying you shouldn't be PM sheepdog me old china, you just need a sexier name for the campaign.
Who is as happy as me that the leadership dispute is now put to rest and Juilliard Gillard is here to takes us to the election