Treaty

It's not just my opinion on race many scientist still agree with this view a quick search on google will confirm this, and yes it will also confirm that others have different views.

Anyway the word itself is really not that important, its more the concept of grouping a group of people together based on biology.

Okay lets for one minute say you guys are correct, lets throw race out the window and i guess your also throwing bloodline out the window, because well that's basically what race is about genetically distinct bloodline.

So what are we actually basing Indigenous status on?

Ethnicity?

Ethnicity is even more fluid and conceptual and more about culture.

So in theory a person like me who has no indigenous bloodline whatsoever can practise and embarrass indigenous culture in many different ways.

Does this make me Indigenous?

And a person with a strong indigenous bloodline may live a life far removed from any indigenous culture or ethnicity.

So are they less Indigenous?

How much cultural must they practise to stay indigenous ?

Which brings us back to Stuck-in-Darwin's point that how can you have a treaty when you can't even have a proper definition based on science of what an indigenous person is.

IMO you have to base it on something scientific like bloodline and you have to draw lines, the current concept is a complete joke.

"Identify as indigenous and be accepted by basically others in your community that identify as indigenous "

Edit: An important thing to add is.

Race= you don't have a choice to pick and choose, whatever race you are born you are.

Ethnicity= you can pick and choose and you can even identify with more than one ethnicity.

:.

BTW. I apologise i did make a mistake Polynesian bloodline does come from the Mongolian group, i meant to say Melanesian under Negroid.

The groupings are: (cut and pasted from elsewhere )

Caucasian races (Aryans, Hamites, Semites)

Mongolian races (northern Mongolian, Chinese and Indo-Chinese, Japanese and Korean, Tibetan, Malayan, Polynesian, Maori, Micronesian, Eskimo, American Indian),

Negroid races (African, Hottentots, Melanesians/Papua, “Negrito”, Australian Aborigine, Dravidians, Sinhalese)

So Guy Smiley

Don't want to have a go at answering these questions?

You want because you can't.

Indo, no biologist would accept classifying humans by race. Consider that favourite method of classification, skin colour. If you start at the equator and travel north, the skin colour of the successive indigenous populations becomes progressively lighter. There is no point of division from black to white, just lighter shades of brown. Even Northern Europeans have some pigmentation. Then there is your concern about having a hard and fast classification of indigenous. The world does not divide itself up neatly into categories to match our preconceptions. Classification, across all biology, is never hard and fast. Even a category like 'species' is impossible to define absolutely. So you will never have a biological system for classifying people as indigenous. Life doesn't work that way. More of a mystery is why you see this relatively trivial issue as a barrier to a treaty. Most laws are imprecise, that's how lawyers make their living.

You kind of can't have its both ways.

You can't say we are not going to divide humans into different groups based on biology then at the same time actually have a treaty.

Because to have a treaty you need to group together indigenous people with something real and scientific like a bloodline.

Not just some airy fairy identify BS.

No I don't want to engage in this forum topic with its distasteful undercurrents.

The question I have for you Indo and others is why are topics like this so important to you? On topics dealing with race and religion you and others are seemingly willing to spend hours and hours researching and recording your thoughts here. Don't you have a life beyond the keyboard? I just don't get that unless there is some alternative agenda at work here.

Profoundly illogical Indo, treaties have been a standard way of ending conflict between groups over a long period of history. Biology is not the only way to identify different groups. If you don't see that, there is not much point continuing.

BB how do you see a treaty resolving this "conflict" ?

In my eyes, it's a bit like spanking a child for something his father did. Only breeds resntment in the child.

GuySmiley we all have interest in different topics, if you haven't noticed even though you and Sheep dog etc can go on for pages and pages of dribble about politics and seem to be experts on middle east affairs i rarely comment and have little interest in the topic and then Blindboy has his Trump thing what was the last count on Trump threads he started?...It's just how it is we all have different interest in these things.

Im not sure what you mean by alternative agenda?

For the record if you are implying I'm racist, well i don't give a shit if that's what you think because i know I'm not, i have friends of many different races and ethnic groups and religions and i even have friends that have Indigenous blood, but don't identify as Indigenous.

Personally i find these issues and topics on race and religion refugees etc really frustrating these cliche new left type views are just frustrating because they are so airy fairy and IMO often damaging to the people that they are trying to wrap in cotton wool.

BTW. Im sitting here waiting for my wife to finish work, minding my little girl its either watch ABC kids with her or waste some time on the net, i was hoping this Fiji comp started but no such luck.

Me too, got up early last couple of mornings to no avail.

If anyones noticed, my specialty is commenting on surf vids and dodgy pro surfing judge calls. In addtion to cheery anecdotes and lame attempts at humour.

"If anyones noticed, my specialty is commenting on surf vids and dodgy pro surfing judge calls. In addtion to cheery anecdotes and lame attempts at humour."

I had noticed that, good place to be, safe and fun

"No I don't want to engage in this forum topic with its distasteful undercurrents."

A little pompous there smileyguy. I think people want to talk about this stuff because, with respect, people like you refuse to.

I think for most observers it is impossible to talk about a treaty or refugees etc. without talking about race/ethnicity/culture...whichever label comforts you.

Talking about the ins and out of a treaty is the only way its going to happen. People are going to disagree, a lot! democracy is messy business like that. To think you can impose your vision of a treaty without defending it's makeup is arrogance of the highest order, sorry but that's how it is.

Maybe, smiley guy you can explain what you have found to be so bloody terrible in this conversation so far? I see difference of opinion and sources, but I don't see anything remotely abhorent.

Zen, a treaty would be a new beginning in the relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous Australians. The Uluru statement can be taken as a starting point in negotiations. Australia has never substantially recognised the prior occupation of the continent and acknowledged that this creates obligations. It is only this year that any mention of the violent conflicts that accompanied European settlement got any sort of mention in the Australian War Museum. It is a simple matter of justice that these issues be dealt with in a formal process that expands indigenous participation in the political life of the country. A treaty is one way of achieving that.

Thanks for your answer BB and i don't have time to respond in full, but where to from there? Most rational Australians are welll and truly aware of the violence and injustice of our ancestors but once again, is the treaty a binding document? Is it an acknowledgement of what has occurred in the past? We are aware of what's happened in the past but we can't bring the past back, nor would we want to. I want to write more but I'm between things at work, stay tuned.

I was thinking of something similar Sypkan.

Guy Smiley it's too easy to take the supposed high moral ground and refuse to engage with a point of view.
If you're in the right it should be easy to put forward a clear and compelling argument.
I'm assuming that the distasteful undercurrent you're talking about is racism - if that's the case then why not word us up?

BB a treaty is certainly one way of acheiving that but unfortunately its just words on a bit of paper. normally speaking a group of peoples lives are improved by self determination, however in the case of many aboriginal peoples it is difficult because they are so disadvantaged. so dont you think that rather than words on a bit of paper that instead a small number of reserved indigenous parliamentary seats would acheive end goals better. aboriginal people represent some 2 % of australian population, so wouldnt that mean about 3 or 4 seats in federal politics?

So many ifs, buts and whatever's, cunningly cloaked in all this talk of Oneness and equality. That law is crystal clear, just as it was when the original crime took place. Terra Nullius.

The original thieves concocted a vicious, savage plan and pack of lies to try and circumvent the crystal clear law at the time. But they were and have been found out. Genocide in many guises was the despicable solution the thieves then attempted. But they failed, badly underestimating the world's best ever survivors.

Now the receivers of the knowingly stolen property, stolen by their magnificent families, and coming from a place of loving equality and sophisticated intelligence. would like the past, the thievery and manic, bloodthirsty butchery to be forgotten, swept away, moved on so to speak. Despite the law. Against the law.

'Stolen you say your honour!' Slyly, cunningly looking around the room, garnering support, in the name of love and equality. 'My goodness, what a shame, but I am just a poor innocent, I had no idea it, the whole country was stolen, according to law'.

'The law is crystal clear, either way, give it back, and when you get out, take up your claims against the original thieves.'

'Yeh, well fuck the law. Lovingly, and equally of course!. Can't we just be all intelligent and sophisticated about this crime?'

And the screeches, howls and screams of whats, ifs, and whatever's pour from the hearts of the thieves in the gallery.

'No one even owns the fuckin' land anyway!'

'The cunt's flogged it off each other anyway, blowie seen em!'

Give Traditional Indigenous Australians a treaty, and due compensation, according to the horrendous, prolonged crimes against them, and be thankful that they are a good bunch of people, with an outstanding history, foundation and track record to back it up. And we all might learn something and we will have a new, exemplary foundation.

Or, carry on fucking equality and fuck the law. Like good 'ol uncle whitey done.

Well said Herc!

Being politically correct, what about getting rid of the use of negative words like culture(race, religion,indigenous,white,black) and use as a general word "aesthetics" of that person , individual,group etc. Better than than these words concocted in the past and riddled with bad meaning. Maybe people could improve their message rather than evoking tragic memories.

If's, buts and whatever's. The law is, and was crystal clear. Terra Nullius.

So, as a criminal, knowingly in receipt of stolen property, property stolen by by your illustrious forefathers blowin, you have no, none, zero authority or right to question what Traditional Indigenous Australians did in their land. Your only concern is who will have you, that is, as a convicted criminal, which detention facility? Or what compensation will the thieves, that is, your cherished forefathers, give you. However, what Traditional Indigenous Australians did among each other regarding living in their land, resulted in achieving a not even remotely matched, spectacular record and level of success and achievement. Success based on numerous, diverse Cultural Groups adopting and upholding a lifestyle with common goals of reciprocity, equality, inclusion, Oneness, justice, belonging, love and respect for the Earth, their Mother, and its Source. The opposite to our society. That result included as previously mentioned, no wholesale, prolonged wars, brutality and bloodshed, no police force or armies, no political parties, no leaders as we view them, no prisons. Plus, no pollution and degradation of the environment, no over population, no obesity, no unemployment. And so on. No doubt you find that unmatched, 60,000 year result spectacularly impressive blowin, especially when compared to our cultures bloodbath of a record. And, perhaps more especially compared to what we have done to this place in a couple of hundred years of knowingly breaking the law. Again though, your only concern is who will have you, that is, as a convicted criminal, which detention facility? Or what compensation will the thieves, that is, your cherished forefathers, give you. (Good luck there! Bit of a track record to contend with!)

Obviously, due to the also unmatched, horrific, prolonged levels of crimes, butchery and violence committed against Traditional Indigenous Australians, and thus all Indigenous Australians, reaching due, and suitable compensation and terms of a treaty will be far reaching, and no simple, quick procedure. Again, as criminals knowingly in receipt of stolen goods, we have no, none, zero authority or rights regarding this. Thankfully Indigenous Australians are offering a second chance to us, and are seeking an amicable, inclusive solution which includes our being accepted here and afforded equal rights. However in keeping aligned with equal rights, and again, no ifs buts or whatevers, upholding the law you so rightly love and dearly cherish blowin, those terms must reflect the severity of the crimes we and our forefathers committed and are committing by being in receipt of knowingly stolen property. So, rather than ask me, you need to ask, converse with, raise your concerns as a hopefully, wholeheartedly repentant criminal with, and listen to Indigenous Australians. I'm sure you'll agree, that thank God they have a different track record and belief system to good 'ol uncle whitey. And his way of using words so thoughtfully and lovingly! The ifs, buts, whatever's. Good 'ol uncle whitey and his lovingly forked tongue!

The treaty sounds like a good option. A blessing rather than a sentence for the crimes committed. A second chance. Again, embrace it wholeheartedly. Or again, rip the cloak off, and give the law and equality a good 'ol fashion reamin', just like good 'ol uncle whitey done!

In an age of Hansen, Reclaim Australia (what a fucking oxymoron that is .... peabrains) and hate speech more generally the right to free speech comes with the responsibility to use words very carefully especially if your aim to is engage in an open and reasoned debate without deliberately causing harm.

I have lived and worked with enough Aboriginals to know questioning their identity and bloodlines is hurtful and would be seen through their eyes as outright racism. Zero to outright rage in a nano second. Anyone that doubts me please don't take my word for it just stroll down to the nearest co-op and start to intellectualise about it and see how long you last before needing medical attention. No seriously do it. Indo, there are co-ops in Morwell, Bairnsdale and Lake Tyers.

I seriously don't get the interest in this topic. We all sadly know the history and the programs, mostly unsuccessful, to address it and the imbalances that have flowed from it. Now what material difference to our lives (ones of relative privilege and comfort) will it make if there is a treaty, parliamentary representation or anything else the Alice Springs history making meetings put forward? What is it to you/us what is asked and what is put forward? Why is it any of our business? Seriously, why is so important what our Aboriginal nations get?

If you accept the history of genocide and wish to embrace the humanity of the moment then act with compassion and support our indigenous nations.

More ifs, buts and whatever's. You tell 'em blowin! Now you are calling the law you lovingly want to impose on Indigenous Australians, and that you are knowingly breaking garbage blowin. Or are you saying no law was, and is being broken? Or just not by you and your loving, illustrious forefathers? Looking around this site, maybe you'd like to put all that boxing training you informed everyone about in another of your marvelous threads, into action again, and reluctantly belt the living shit out of a few more people? Give em a good 'ol reamin', like good 'ol uncle blowie done so well!

I dont agree Floyd I'm sure there is many many many true indigenous people that feel as i do and think it's a joke that some white fella thinks he is indigenous because their great great grandmother was indigenous, id sure feel that way if i was a true indigenous person especially if i came up against challenges or disadvantages that true indigenous people face like being judged on their appearance and stereotypes especially for say seeking employment, I'm sure many true indigenous people would be like, yeah sure blue eyed blond haired white skin boy, you really know how it is to be a disadvantaged Aboriginal.

Funny you mention Morwell i actually went to primary school there for a year before we moved to the coast, for some reason my parents got all religious and sent me to a Christian school (man that sucked) anyway it was smack bang in the middle of a housing commission area with yes a big Aboriginal population, i even had a good mate (Colin) that was Aboriginal, i remember really clearly going to the corner shop with him at lunch and all the older Aboriginal kids that were hanging around the shop playing arcade machines and smoking etc would give him death stares and the odd bit of crap for hanging out with us white fellas, funny now when i think of it as we never talked about it and he never said anything about it and never did i or my friends, thinking back i don't even remember even talking about the fact he was Aboriginal or anything, i guess was kids it doesn't really matter, well not until your looking to tease some kid in the playground, but well i didn't remember that happening and if it did he would have just dropped the other kid as he was a big boy built like a tank.

On the treaty thing although i think it's divisive and I'm confused how Australians can have a treaty with Australians, to be honest i don't really care either way if it happens it happens it's really not that big deal to me.

No answers at all blowin, just more, endless ifs, buts, whatever's. You tell 'em!

'Now you are calling the law you lovingly want to impose on Indigenous Australians, and that you are knowingly breaking garbage blowin. Or are you saying no law was, and is being broken? Or just not by you and your loving, illustrious forefathers?'

No answers blowin?

Now you also raise more ifs, buts, whatever's, cloaked as hysterical. Hysterical you say? Looking around the site, there are definitely some 'hysterical' moments, perhaps cloaked as poignant, moving, brilliant moments! From here for example:

https://www.swellnet.com/forums/wax/12736

'That was when the madness set in. I looked at the blue sky and the white sand and realty, or unreality, set in. I started to blather, i could not tell you for certain what i was saying but it was lost mans dribble refering to the beautiful day and how this cunt had destroyed it with malicious intent. He started to walk along the beach cursing me over his shoulder, i think he saw in me something that i was not consciously aware of myself and his desire for confrontation was gone.
We walked in lock step along the beach as though to jump back off the point, myself slightly behind, fermenting, when we reached his friends. His bravado reappeared, turning to face me he addressed his friends, a half dozen guys and girls staked out against the wire guarding the dunes, he described my crimes as a blowin, an unwelcome abhorration, i saw the girls sneer as i raved about being from somewhere else, somewhere where people are judged on their merits in the surf. I recollect displeasure on their faces when they realised i wasn't from a city with inferior waves to theirs.
Then the red mist came over me
It was the assumed resentment of the women that really got me.
The smug superiority of some small minded no- one cunt moll that set me off. I turned to face Loud Mouth in front of his cunting piece of shit friends and with every ounce of will ,energy and misdirected anger from every point of my life i drove my fist into that cunt's putrid face and punched him to the sand.
I was standing over Loud Mouth's form bellowing that he was an imposter king presiding over a weak, gay wave, raising my fist for another blow when i realised my hand was broken . Then i heard a lady screaming and i was back in my head, concious of what i'd done , aware of where i was.
Loud Mouth was not cowering , but all fight had left the man. He was submissive but i was not gracious. Thank fuck i did not have a gun cause if i did i would have shot the cunt. The only thing that stopped me from kicking him till he twitched was some chick throwing herself over his prostrate form.'

Good 'ol smug uncle blowie gave the 'cunts' a good ol fashion, hysterical, manic reamin'!

Facts are facts, law is law. Dots are just dots.

Stolen goods are stolen goods. Knowingly or unknowingly being in possession of them is illegal. And mandates their return. That is the law, regardless of this hysterical talk of yours, the ifs buts and whatever's about 240 years, and who knows what about good 'ol uncle blowie.

'The offence

If you have received stolen property knowing that the item has been stolen – it’s an offence. No if, buts, or whatevers about it.'

http://www.findlaw.com.au/articles/5471/how-is-receiving-stolen-property...

'Although you will likely not be charged with a crime, if you unknowingly bought stolen goods, you will probably have to return them to the rightful owner. The thief (or thieves) will then owe you the purchase price in restitution.Aug 27, 2014'

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/08/can-you-get-arrested-for-buying...

You're getting hysterical again, good 'ol uncle blowie! It will make a great story!

But still just ifs, buts, whatever's, but no real answers. No real substance. That's alright, I understand.

The treaty sounds like a good option. A blessing rather than a sentence for the crimes committed. A second chance. Again, embrace it wholeheartedly. Wholeheartedly, truthfully. Acknowledge the laws that are still being broken. By all of us. Or again, rip the cloak off, and give the law and equality a good 'ol fashion reamin', just like good 'ol uncle blowie done!

Proud to read fellow Swellnetonians insightful commentary.

As worlds oldest continuous race. Australian Aboriginal blood flows through all our veins.
These proud peoples insist their culture took rooted here. Dreamtime is all.
From here navigating oceans north & east Aborigines populated Earth.

(Original cross ocean surfing perspective) Scholars have presented maps and writings of first peoples star navigation-tidal powered canoe routes.( Polar surfing/ Equatorial tiding).

Modern era Australian Aborigines naturally from nearest migrations returned home from closest shores inhabited by Torres Strait/Papuans,Kiwis,Macassans,Arabs,Chinese.

By 1500's these neighbours had Australian wide trade routes/ Religious ties...Islam included.

European Aborigines began returning home by 1500's Portuguese,Spanish .Jury is out on relations with these visitors.... many scholars lose heads just mentioning early visits

Last of all 1600's come the White trash if you like.Dutch/Swedes, British,French,Germans.
Arriving white folk were adopted as relatives returning home from earlier lives. (How true!)

Ok! We're all on same page here! Hence the coming together.
Treaty! Must be honoured truthfully and respectfully by Australian Aborigines at heart.

Science/Religion/Dr Who will bow to Australian Treaty as most powerful document on Earth.
Just Take your Time/No pressure ! 500,000 years condensed into.... Oi! Oi! Oi! (easy mate).

Swelltonians, we could build a world on that, of course we would would respect the indigenous. This is turning out more like a Sci Fi thing when we would come across a world with indigenous people. This planet has a lot of surf, small islands populated by indigenous people. The people landing on the planet think it is Swell, so they name the Planet Swelloff, so the indigenous, by default are Swelltonians, sorry, I am tired and I am going to bed.

Who gives a fuck ?I certainly don't.Go for a paddle,sit on the beach,smoke a joint,to many serious heads about .

Who gives a fuck ?I certainly don't.Go for a paddle,sit on the beach,smoke a joint,to many serious heads about .

I can't believe nobody came up with the old line.

"It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"

Which well is not true at some point it just becomes coffee flavour milk.

We must mix in different circles Indo, I've never heard that one before. Care to expand on its meaning.......or would that be too embarrassing?

Yes true bluey, lots of proud and marvelous moments!

'I can't believe nobody came up with the old line.

"It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"

Which well is not true at some point it just becomes coffee flavour milk.'

Marvel on! Proudly!

'The smug superiority of some small minded no- one cunt moll that set me off. I turned to face Loud Mouth in front of his cunting piece of shit friends and with every ounce of will ,energy and misdirected anger from every point of my life i drove my fist into that cunt's putrid face and punched him to the sand.
I was standing over Loud Mouth's form bellowing that he was an imposter king presiding over a weak, gay wave, raising my fist for another blow when i realised my hand was broken . Then i heard a lady screaming and i was back in my head, concious of what i'd done , aware of where i was.
Loud Mouth was not cowering , but all fight had left the man. He was submissive but i was not gracious. Thank fuck i did not have a gun cause if i did i would have shot the cunt. The only thing that stopped me from kicking him till he twitched was some chick throwing herself over his prostrate form.'

Some on here even proudly say these moments are so marvelous it makes their hair stand on end!

Terra Nullius. The first Australian crime against law. Committed by those who were at the top of the heap of the bloodbath that is europe. Sure, the romans figured out how to keep their punters happy, they even knew how to get giraffes to fuck virgins to death while ripping their arms and legs off and stuff like that to entertain the masses. The spanish had their inquisition, but they were all just wannabe's next to the brits. The brits were the top of the bloodbath that is european tradition. The leaders could and did fuck anyone, and anything they liked. So, sure, they smugly signed off on the law, put their seal of approval on it. Then gave it a right royal reamin'!

'Law? Law? Well, fuck the law, just tell the stupid cunts there's no one here, just some half chimps, and get our good 'ol boys over here to sort them out. And get that Charlie Darwin bloke on it too, make him earn his keep, he reckons they're fucked anyway. And put the fear of God up 'em too! Put up the flag, and the posters, its free land for all boys! It's party time! Not bad lookin' some of them 'no- one cunt molls', well you know, for chimps anyway! And remember boys, first in first serve, shit if it's not us someone else will fuck em anyway!'

Knowingly, unknowingly, the boys and girls of the brits and co all happily grabbed their share of stolen property. And what a time they had! Imagine the scenes of a young Indigenous bride, spread eagled on a tree, watching her husband getting flayed and tortured to death. Romans, spanish, nah, they were just wannabe's, the brits knew how to do the job real good. Then the screaming terrified, young, 'no- one cunt moll', Indigenous bride gets to watch her screaming, terrified baby get its head caved in, smashed right off! 'Its all right boys they don't feel nothin' anyway! Fuckin' just thievin' black vermin! Now boys, give the 'no- one cunt moll' a good 'ol fashion, right royal reamin'! Don't worry about the noise boys, the feisty bitches love it!' And when your dun there, give her 'cunting piece of shit friends' a right royal serve too! And remember boys, "It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"!

Yeh, I know, just move on, that was just the past. Bit of a shame, that's all. The foundation.

'Shit, that 'no- one cunt moll' lived, now it's had a fuckin' kid! Remember though, "It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"!'

'Shit, those fuckin' do gooder, stupid lot reckon they are human. No problem exterminate the fuckin' vermin before they are none the wiser.'

'Shit, this extermination is costing a fuckin fortune, and its a real pain in the arse, plus the fuckin' stupid do gooders are spieling all this garbage about world's most successful fuckin' culture, for fuck's sake. We got a better idea, just fuck em white! You know, 'at some point it just becomes coffee flavour milk.' Get on it boys!'

And here we are. There were plenty of real relationships between Indigenous Australians, and non Indigenous Australians, and more than plenty of not real relationship, unbelievably horrific scenarios. Either way, the children from those relationships, and unbelievably horrific crimes, enabled by the original conniving, slimy, brute like crime committed by the brits, are here.

'"It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"

Which well is not true at some point it just becomes coffee flavour milk.''

'The cunt's don't even know if they are black or white!'

The original crime, the foundation, had a vital, crucial, far reaching effect on Traditional Indigenous Australians, and so, on anyone related to them. As does the, to this day, perpetuated crime of being in receipt of stolen goods. Again, the law is very clear in that respect. The goods must be returned. Any compensation must be from the original thieves. So, again, in light of the truth, and the law, we should all consider ourselves very lucky, blessed, that the option of a treaty is being offered, is on the table. And be happy to embrace, and wholeheartedly work with all Indigenous Australians affected by the horrific, brutal, prolonged dishonest foundation our forefathers gave them. And by doing so create a much better foundation, and life for all of us.

But, as they say, 'crime pays'. Some people just love fucking the truth, and the law, fucking anyone they like, just like good 'ol uncle whitey dun.

@Herc Sorry i really don't know how to reply or even digest your'e post.

@Blindboy you seriously have never heard that one, it's the line the left use thinking they are clever when ever the subject comes up, obviously a metaphor.

Even most native American tribes use % of bloodline to accept of reject members for some tribes even as high as 1/2 (One full blood parent), it called "blood quantum"

BTW. Is there any countries in the world where different race's or ethnic groups or tribes haven't fought over land or territory?

Doesn't mean it was right or make right the wrongs of the past, but basically the world works in a top dog survives and comes out on top, i mean no matter your genealogy your ancestors have probably been conquered or conquered.

er blowin, all working australian's effectively already pay a levy on their income. its called tax into consolidate revenue of which some is used for indigenous spending. so no one actually has to forgo anything special. btw native title will never take your house from you, its an absurd argument ive heard before.

indo, dont see the logic of comparing to other countries. arent we supposed to make our own decisions based of australia. and a treaty isn't trying to remove the status quo of "top dog", its merely another means to pull indigenous people out of their permanent generational slump. that being said I do respect your opinion that unification and not division should be the end goal and can see how a treaty may create division. but as always, the devil is always in the detail.

but what will be?....

and thats the important point isnt it. its easy to be afraid (not you btw) that a treaty is the end of the world and getting all philosphical and "on principle" about it. but the real argument is about what should/shouldnt be in the treaty, not whether we need one or not. i think thats basically your point from first post anyhow.

agree about the potential pitfalls of manufactured political indigenous representation, but thats on the assumption that bad people are the representatives. there are good people in all walks of life. id like to see a temporary (say 20 or 30 year) trial of such political representation. if it turns out useless then ditch it.

Indo, I have been a "leftie" a long time and never heard or read that. Sounds much more like the kind of insult racist fucknuckles used to throw around, but believe what you want. The blood quantum laws you refer to in the US were not developed by the tribes but were imposed on them as a means of limiting government liability, which seems to be the spirit of your remarks.

The system like most things was written up by the government but the tribes themselves are the ones who decided on the % of blood set to be accepted as part of the tribe, many tribes set it high for a reason.

One of those reasons being basically there is only so much $$$ to go around to help those disadvantaged indigenous people, and when you get every tom dick and harry claiming they are indigenous because a few generations ago they had some indigenous relative but they are no more disadvantaged than you or me, then the people who actually need help get less help because the size of the pie rarely changes but the pieces get smaller.

We are possibly heading into similar problems in Australia where there is a trend for those with tiny bloodlines to claim indigenous status.

The danger is then things on paper look like they are improving because there is suddenly an increase in indigenous families doing a lot better, living in the suburbs two cars, kids with good education, but in reality they are not indigenous at all and fir true ingenious people it's likely little has changed at all.

This article kind of on a similar theme.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/identifying-as-aboriginal-can-hu...

Indo, both your post and the link suggest a possible problem without any evidence that it exists and I would be very careful about making sweeping statements about relative disadvantage. The ranks of the wealthy do not seem to be over-flowing with indigenous people, nor are the professions. Progress has been made but indigenous people are under-represented. It seems to me entirely reasonable that opportunities should be created for that be addressed and if that involves giving a hand up to people "no more disadvantaged than you and me", I am fine with that. I would also suggest that these days most people claiming indigenous status introduce themselves as belonging to a specific tribe. Anyone making that claim leaves themselves open to scrutiny as to their degree of association, by the existing members.

More of the same blowin. Just ifs, buts and whatever's. Again, in character, no substance though. As I said, I understand though. You haven't answered this point below either. I understand why not also.

'Now you are calling the law you lovingly want to impose on Indigenous Australians, and that you are knowingly breaking garbage blowin. Or are you saying no law was, and is being broken? Or just not by you and your loving, illustrious forefathers?

Of course you, and others, would like the past all swept under the rug. Because the result, the mandate of the full truth of the crime our illustrious forefathers committed is, as you already ignored, and with no ifs, buts and whatever's, that as a criminal, knowingly in receipt of stolen property, property stolen by by your illustrious forefathers blowin, you have no, none, zero authority or right to question what Traditional Indigenous Australians did, or wish to do in their land. Your only concern is who will have you, that is, as a convicted criminal, which detention facility? Or what compensation will the thieves, that is, your cherished forefathers, give you.

But just like good 'ol uncle whitey, you want, assert and assume a false position of supremacy over Indigenous Australians. Despite the law, and the truth. Just like good 'ol uncle whitey, you ignore the law, and contrive and concoct. So we have this, your, another marvelous thread, or more accurately, story. My answer to your 'question' is the same as when I previously answered your heart felt 'question'. 'So, rather than ask me, you need to ask, converse with, raise your concerns as a hopefully, wholeheartedly repentant criminal with, and listen to Indigenous Australians. I'm sure you'll agree, that thank God they have a different track record and belief system to good 'ol uncle whitey.'

Likewise, it is up to Indigenous Australians to decide who qualifies as Indigenous Australians. Our track record shows that as a society we need to earn trust before being trusted to make such decisions.

As for this, and the perplexed indo:

'I can't believe nobody came up with the old line.

"It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"

Which well is not true at some point it just becomes coffee flavour milk.'

It, combined with blowin's attitude is a graphic demonstration that good 'ol uncle whitey's racist stance is alive and well. Just like good 'ol uncle whitey, back in the day, it is conveniently beyond the grasp of indo and blowin why. There is no way the Traditional Indigenous Australians could have a much, much, much more successful system of living than them. Their success, their garbage is just a fluke, and they need to get in line with the superior, supreme thieves, who weren't really thieves, way of thinking. As long as good 'ol uncle whitey is calling the shots, and they don't ask the boss, good 'ol uncle whitey for too much, all is fine.

That it, blowin's cherished, supreme, beloved system, can promote and produce this example of thought and behaviour is a genuine concern. To brazenly assault some one with the intent of killing and maiming them over something so trivial, over some self described junk surf, is putting it very politely, dysfunctional. As is it being upheld and paraded as some marvelous story. Its the type of thing we then reel at, are aghast at, as 'evil' extremists and terrorists over react the same. Blowin himself states that only luck saved the subject of his crazed rage. Likewise, as did good 'ol uncle whitey, the blowin's, terrorists and extremists put ownership of their actions onto the actual subjects, the victims of their uncontrolled, manic behaviour. That technique is one of good 'ol uncle whitey's favourites when dealing with Indigenous Australians.

https://www.swellnet.com/forums/wax/12736

'That was when the madness set in. I looked at the blue sky and the white sand and realty, or unreality, set in. I started to blather, i could not tell you for certain what i was saying but it was lost mans dribble refering to the beautiful day and how this cunt had destroyed it with malicious intent. He started to walk along the beach cursing me over his shoulder, i think he saw in me something that i was not consciously aware of myself and his desire for confrontation was gone.
We walked in lock step along the beach as though to jump back off the point, myself slightly behind, fermenting, when we reached his friends. His bravado reappeared, turning to face me he addressed his friends, a half dozen guys and girls staked out against the wire guarding the dunes, he described my crimes as a blowin, an unwelcome abhorration, i saw the girls sneer as i raved about being from somewhere else, somewhere where people are judged on their merits in the surf. I recollect displeasure on their faces when they realised i wasn't from a city with inferior waves to theirs.
Then the red mist came over me
It was the assumed resentment of the women that really got me.
The smug superiority of some small minded no- one cunt moll that set me off. I turned to face Loud Mouth in front of his cunting piece of shit friends and with every ounce of will ,energy and misdirected anger from every point of my life i drove my fist into that cunt's putrid face and punched him to the sand.
I was standing over Loud Mouth's form bellowing that he was an imposter king presiding over a weak, gay wave, raising my fist for another blow when i realised my hand was broken . Then i heard a lady screaming and i was back in my head, concious of what i'd done , aware of where i was.
Loud Mouth was not cowering , but all fight had left the man. He was submissive but i was not gracious. Thank fuck i did not have a gun cause if i did i would have shot the cunt. The only thing that stopped me from kicking him till he twitched was some chick throwing herself over his prostrate form.'

Again, I also understand your perplexed stance indo. Its another old one of good 'ol uncle whitey's that you demonstrate so willingly is alive and well.

Again, no real substance blowin. Just more contrived ifs, buts, whatever's. As I said, dysfunctional, all over the most trivial of incidents. it explains a lot.

'Then the red mist came over me
It was the assumed resentment of the women that really got me.
The smug superiority of some small minded no- one cunt moll that set me off. I turned to face Loud Mouth in front of his cunting piece of shit friends and with every ounce of will ,energy and misdirected anger from every point of my life i drove my fist into that cunt's putrid face and punched him to the sand.'

' Thank fuck i did not have a gun cause if i did i would have shot the cunt. The only thing that stopped me from kicking him till he twitched was some chick throwing herself over his prostrate form.'