Beating the internet with Andrew Kidman
This week Andrew Kidman and Ellis Ericson are celebrating the release of 'On the Edge of a Dream'. The project brings to a close five years of inter-disciplanary work: film, words, music, and shaping of course. It's exhausting stuff. But instead of clinking champagne glasses, the two are licking stamps and posting packages across the country. Such is the life of the self-publisher.
Yesterday I asked Ank why promotional footage of the project has been so sparse. This is the conversation that followed...
Swellnet: I’m wondering if you and Ellis are intending to cut a longer trailer for ‘On the Edge of a Dream’, something to use as an internet teaser?
Andrew Kidman: Nah, not at all. What we’ve put up, that’s it. People on the ‘net are so used to getting things for free, getting spoon fed, but we’re not giving our work away.
But you could use the internet to advertise what you’ve done, isn’t that true?
I think we’re doing that. We’ve put small bits and pieces up. It’s like this: the more content we put out there, the more people think they know what it is that we’re doing, and my experience is that they’re not usually right. People think, ‘well we know what that’s all about’, and so they don’t buy it.
Also, if we give away all the properties on the internet then there’s no point buying it. That’s why we don’t post much stuff about it. A few pictures of boards, abstract images, but nothing else.
This is what you want, this is what you get: 100 page book, limited edition, sure to become a cultural touchpoint, with a movie to boot
You use the internet shrewdly don’t you?
Yeah, I guess. My experience of the internet is that it’s a free platform, but I don’t make my money out of listing corporate organisations. The simple thing is that I don't make money from the internet so there’s no point putting stuff on the internet for free.
I guess you’re relying on your reputation and your back catalogue. For instance, a first time filmmaker couldn't expect people to pay for something that the public can’t see.
Yeah, that’s fine. I was talking to my son about it the other day. I’ve got an Instagram following and he started getting annoyed that I was posting stuff about On the Edge of a Dream but not giving away more information about it.
Yet as I explained to him, those followers are useless to me unless they come in at some stage and buy the product. They’re like remoras. Everyone’s looking for free information, but I need people to come in and buy the thing.
Especially considering the time and effort you guys put in.
Yeah, and I think it’s worth it. I’ve already got emails back from people who have received On the Edge of a Dream and they can’t believe it. The experiences that they’ve had, not just watching the film and reading the book, but the reaction also comes from knowing that they contributed to it by supporting us.
Increasingly that’s the way things are going. Reader-supported work. Everyday benefactors that keep the culture alive.
And it’s good. That’s the world I live in. I don’t give away free content. But if I get paid I can keep going.
OK, you worked on this project for five years but you didn’t say much about it while it was in progress.
I didn’t say anything about it online. I didn’t tell anyone. Unless you saw me down the beach with one of the boards you wouldn’t even know we were working on this project.
But why the secrecy? Another internet strategy..?
Just because I wanted to have a clear mind to work on it. I was working with Greenough and Ellis, we had our ideas, it doesn't help to have other people come in and start telling me their experiences or what they know. It’s really easy for people to contact me these days and I didn’t need the psychological warfare [laughs].
Really, I just wanted to concentrate on what I was doing.
Special service delivery...
In contrast, you’re also making ‘Beyond Litmus’ and you’ve been active online with that.
That’s different because I made Litmus. You know, no-one can come in with Beyond Litmus and start fucking with me psychologically. I made the film, so what are they gonna say to me? Are they gonna tell me I’m making the wrong movie..? [laughs]
The thing with the edge design, it’s been around for a long time, and there’s definitely been people who’ve experimented with it, and I respect all those people, but that wasn’t our journey. Our journey was with George and Ellis, you can see that in the movie, and I really wanted to be true to it. I didn’t want those ideas interrupted while we were making it.
Comments
I don't make money from the internet but I'm proud to share our unique surf history.
None get internet for free $100mth + subscriptions. Also proud to be spoon fed by Swellnet.
I find the opposite is true in that everyone is paid for lies to fund Books/Magz/Flix.
Sadly most of it is a twisted truth to push products or fuel egos for over 100 years or more.
From beginning to end Surfing History sits top of the heap of ego driven fake News.
*Early example being Oz surfcraft or even surfboard riding beginning with The Duke(1914).
(Truth): Oz Pro Surfcraft riding began in(1829).In my state Qld Board-making/riding (1910)
*Right up to this week's example of Surf Lakes being 'Australia's first Wave Pool'.
(Truth): Australia has up to 40 Wave Pools/rides dating back to 1986 or earlier.
Surf Lakes is the 5th Wave Pool for for stand-up surfboardriding & 2nd for fibreglass boards.
Now count what % of surf media is already gearing up to convince you of next week's lie.
...Just last week alone is staggering...How to even begin to flush out the truth!
Now amplify these lies with everything in between day one to end of Surfing History.
Uncover a surfing lie everyday of the week and still one step forward & two steps back.
Correcting surf lies a recurring impossible dream draining the soul. Wake up you old fool.
Feel free to share unique surfing history thru Swellnet where it can be openly debated.
Swellnet is the greatest source of corrected Oz Surf history that remains freely available.
Some subscribe,contribute,some share to get to the heart of Surfing. It's what drives us all.
If your secret corrects surf history know our surf community is owed the truth. Please Help!
Began in 1829?
I'm well aware of Tommy Walker who was surfing from, I think, 1910 and was photographed in 1912.
More power to him id say. The idea that everything on the internet is free is entrenched by Facebook and Google who provide 'free' services while simultaneously mining and sell our personal data. Good to see Kidman is using the internet on his terms.
Totally agree you forgot not just mining but also manipulation.
Nah it just comes from it's roots, remember the internet when it first started there was very little commercial websites it was all just peoples personal or fan style websites on music, art, surfing etc and then chat rooms and forums and about ten search engines everything was free.
That side off things is almost dead now, its all about business and money.
Very little commercial websites when the internet started?
Sure, if you're referring to the late 1960's and early 1970's when ARPANET was first launched.
If you're talking about the late 1990's and early 2000's, then you're only seeing things from one side.
It's always been about business, it's just that the underlying business model has evolved (and continues to evolve) considerably.
Actually it's always been about information. And it's always been free.
You don't have to go back to 1970 to see that. The late 1990's and early 2000's dot-com boom/bust was the start of businesses trying to cash-in on the internet's potential.
I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to make money on the internet, or trying to change the general public's attitude towards paying for things online. But it's disingenuous to say that the internet has always been about business.
You've missed the point I was making (and perhaps the time frame: I was referring to the 90's and 00's).
I was countering ID's post: "remember the internet when it first started there was very little commercial websites it was all just peoples personal or fan style websites on music, art, surfing etc and then chat rooms and forums and about ten search engines everything was free."
If you were using MySpace for your 'fan style website', or Geocities for your 'music page' or Lycos for your search engine, or any number of forum pages (VBulletin, PHPBB) for your chat room.. they all had underlying business models. Some were B2B, some were B2C. Plenty of people did it for fun. Plenty of people asked for donations to keep the lights on (sure, that's not much of a business model). Plenty of people built commercial businesses, small and large (there's a difference between "not for profit" and "not making a profit")
However, the notion that all of these websites in the late 90's and early 00's were run by philanthropists in the pursuit of free information is misleading. It certainly doesn't mean that there aren't/weren't websites that lack a commercial agenda, but they are/were far and few between.
Convicts were consigned to construct cedar surfcraft & surf from Stotts Island to Brisbane.
1829/Surf out Tweed River swingset all points north to surf over Southport Bar.
Surfcraft rolled up into wharf hoisted into Ship hull> bound for UK Royal Palace furniture.
1829 Also Birth of Pro Surfing and export trade of the most valuable surfcraft in history.
Perfect fit for WSR reserves? I can guarantee that was never honoured nor iconic Jabreen.
Jabreen of course being original surfcraft rider /bodysurfer of first wave. (Before our time!)
Names of our pioneer surfers can be provided.
Qld 1910/11 has a few entries for first Stand up surfboards.
Both at opposite ends of Gold Coast/boardshaping world
1910 (fairly accurate date)
Jim Farrell contoured Currumbin Beach also shaped some crude slabs at his sawmill.
Jim pioneered everything South Gold Coast surfing...SLSC's/ First Surf Taxi to the Points.
If your in Currumbin... Lookout for his Lookout!
Hint: Great Surf God for Swellnet's Promo for 11th Currumbin's Wooden Surf Board Day
Surely not too much to knock up a couple of slabs in his honour. Shh! (More on this Story)...
https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2016/07/26/8th-annual-wo...
1911
This date is often wrongly attributed as belonging to somewhat later > 1914/15 Dukes Visit.
Background: 1912 was widely known as year Oz Olympic Swimmers invited Duke to OZ.
Mrs Isabel Phipps claims her husband Albert was surfing Main Beach a year before invite.
Mrs Phipps also claims Albert also built his own Surfboard.
Isabel was sure that husband Albert was the first to ride surfboards in 'these waters'.
Albert was a champion Diver + both were also champion swimmers also both Boardriders.
Isabel's 1st 1.2m board was shaped by furniture maker R.L.Gordon.
Isabel retired from surfboardriding at age 74. (We can assume Albert's Board was of worth)
Footnote: (Isabel) "But these claims about a certain Duke sort of really got to me because I really know how much surfing mean't to Albert."...
Isabel also a pioneer bullshit detector! Cheers to Phipps!
Right you are Stu...
1911 is also about as early as I can trace Tommy Walker...(Happy to go 1910 if it works)
Important to remember Tommy never shaped his first board.
Tommy was attributed as importing/buying first Hawaiian Surfboard...
(That "buys" a hell of a lot more cred in surfing circles) Should say it best fits the narrative!
Birth of Surf Products starts right there I believe. Again love to know of earlier.
There is no doubt Tommy was first Northerner to surf in Sydney Waters...
1864 Main Beach (Briso) Body Surfing + 1866 Islander Body Surfing. (Bundall Cane workers)
1890's Sydney still fight over who started bodysurfing...
Qld Islanders Surfed south for freedom. No history book shows the reverse...
1912 Greenmount Gurl bodyboarder possibly an"Old Coach seat"/ (Spring boards earlier)
Not said of photo is very risque beach wear she is hiding. Hence the Body board on display
Coach seats doubled as beach utilty- Shelving/seating (Bodyboard!)
1890's Springboards tumbled to river banks. In floods washing up on Beaches (Bodyboard!)
1914 Cooly Kidz began fighting over Duke Knock offs .
1915 Duke mysterious visit to Cooly.(Said pre Bne Time table/Post Timetable NO!) But..!
During Duke's Visit two things happened that change the game in favour of Story.
* Newspaper runs Hot az Surf Mag Photos/Big Write up of Cooly/Currumbin Surf Beaches
* South coast Train runs Daily Return trips as you like to Cooly. That works in well!
Duke only need slip out for one of 2 free days and he's with the Cooly Kidz.
Between swimming in water tanks he may have ventured to honour Fingal Surf King.
Happy to share!
I do wish the guys well with Dreamy project! Looks every bit the real thing.
Most Board riders benefit knowing how a board works (or not) for surf conditions.
Surf the internet...talk to mates...watch good surfing....& try alota boards.
PS
George Greeenough (in 1970 ) creatively converted all Oz straightshooting malibu planks into the 21st century. Look at the outline of the board he built in 1969 and current shapes selling in your local surf shop....single concave; just add finboxes and mod flex.
http://www.surfresearch.com.au/sGreenough_George.html
Pass it on & give him the best wave!
PSS
"Mark Richards Named Australias Most Influential Surfer.....The 10, in order of votes received, was: Mark Richards, Simon Anderson, Nat Young, Michael Peterson, Midget Farrelly, Tom Carroll, Layne Beachley, Wayne Bartholomew, Mark Occhilupo and Bob McTavish." GeorgeG wasnt even on the selection list....
https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2013/02/21/mark-richards...
P.S.S.S.
Guru Greenough's Spoon was the talk of the town back in the laid back 70's
Prototype originates from Victorian/S.A. Border which resembles Murray River "YUKI"
Uncle Les Briggs handed down "Spoon" design to Yorta Yorta Moidaban (Wally) in 1973.
Here's Wally: "So we did a bark canoe and it was the most amazing thing you have ever seen in your life. He did it in about 1 hour,he chopped it and we just popped it off the tree with ease you couldn't believe."
"Then we went and finished it and it probably took us a day and a half to cure it with fire and then he just turned it up and it was magic."
Linked Victorian Museum masterpiece Redgum "Spoon" was moulded in 1990's
Measures: (235cm x 80 cm) Suits 1-3 persons usually Stand up paddle but lends to either.
Being a more uniform contoured 'Yuki'. Suggests it's for more robust Coastal use.
I should say River/Estuarine perhaps Island paddle but in and around waves I'd say.
Note! Complete Curve rids clay balls at bow/stern indicating a sandy or beach design
Easy to bail & flip back over! Please if swellnetonians know more of this Pod...Speak Now!
I believe this is the only online photo & No! Not easy to google search...I can tell you!
This be a gift for bbbird... Make a note to return to this link or be wiser to cement your own!
Being a Museum artifact ...I'd recommend bbbird print a copy just in case!
Presenting in purest form... "The original modern surfcraft" (No Decal Sticker needed)
Might I add 60,000 years ahead of it's time...Freak out Greenough himself this would!
https://cv.vic.gov.au/stories/aboriginal-culture/meerreeng-an-here-is-my...
Hey Guys...How come the" Dream".....Costs so much..consume..consume. $300 for a fin Whoa!....Can we ever return to a simpler time in surfing..?
ha , the egoless ego . packemup mate
who was the first person to do an aquaturd ?????
Ok, it's just this simple for me.
I don't have a t.v. or DVD player nor is there one In my computer?
It's 2018 ...who the ____ buys dvds ?
Don't chuck out your DVD players, LD.
Discs are like vinyl in 1995.
Plotting their return.
I’ve got so many surf videos on VHS it’s embarrassing.
It’s also quite nice on a rainy , onshore day.
Water Slaughter anyone ? Maybe a bit of Lusurfer rising ( Hot Tuna ) or a bit of The Core ( Stroh ) ?
The Core. Phwoar. Big Iluka on big boards to big music.
From memory.
Why is it that interesting threads on board design etc, always get hijacked? Always someone trying to claim "we've been doing it for 60,000 years" TBB are you sure you don't have to go and train someone now?
You cannot find any films like litmus
Blue horizon/McCoy
Sprout/ Campbell on the internet.
I have them all on DVD or bunyip on tape they are all in storage gaining value I guess.
Yes , why arent all these old great surf movies available for download? Ive been trying to hunt down some of the old search movies and The Performers 2 etc for my Ipad whilst travelling but just cant find them.
(sorry for hijack original post) but can anybody point me in the right direction?
Thanks guys
GreenRoom Surf Movies has them available to stream (i.e rent) not download. All of Jack McCoy's films are in there plus a few others too.
https://vimeo.com/greenroomsurfmovies
Likely ownership/copyright issues, plus music licensing.
When the original videos were produced, the internet didn't exist, so the music licensing (and many surf videos had high profile bands) only covered particular kinds of media distribution, for and very likely for specific time periods (for example, VHS and DVD release, for ten years).
Therefore, if you want want to re-release the video, the producers are going to have to re-negotiate the licensing terms with every single artist and their publishing company - which could be between five and twenty different artists (usually one per song, unless you're looking at a vid like Mad Wax, which exclusively used music from GANGajang).
I don't have a copy of Performers II, but the excerpt embedded below starring TC has a tune from 80's band Noiseworks, who were very popular. The track used ('No Lies') was released on CBS records, who are owned by Sony - so we're talking about negotiating with the upper end of the music biz.
There's another YouTube clip of this song, which says it was licensed by:
That shows the level of work required just to negotiate the renewed licensing terms.
And that's one song, out of about ten (I guess) that were on The Performers II. And, that's before dollars are discussed - how much will the publishers want for the use of the song? Who knows.
After all of that, you have to keep in mind that ALL music publishers associated with that video will need to be agreeable to having their music re-released, otherwise it can't be published again.
Other options could include re-editing the video to new music, but then it's not really the same, is it? Or they could even run the footage with a silent background (where the music couldn't be relicensed) but that'd be a pretty average user experience, and would also require man-hours to re-edit the masters.
And.. how much $$ does a video make on the internet? Very little, to nothing for niche videos like this.
ThanksvThermalBen
Sounds complicated/ difficult.......geeze no wonder I cannot find many old videos online.
If you could find the rest of performers 2 and post it up it would be great. That was a great film. The video store near my house growing up was filled with awesome new and old surf movies.
I used to borrow that one fairly often. Solid performance by at c
. brings back a lot of memories thanks ben
Also, many of the 70s films just simply ripped off Hendrix, Santana, Neil Young et al. They got away with it for a while till the record companies put the kybosh on the practice. Can't show those ones legally anymore.
wow, now I can see the problems. No where nearly as simple as I thought - thanks guys.
PS thanks Ben that was the best 5 minutes and 33 seconds I have ever spent at work, when are they ever going to make a movie about this guys life, thats got to be a winner for sure!
I don't know what your all talkin about. But, I want to be part of it, whatever it is.