Greg Webber and his concaved Creature
Now that Instagram has replaced the product catalogue, shapers have become adept at presenting their latest creations online. See the artistic photographs with shaper holding the board just so, the light falling across the bottom of the board so the shadows accentuate the concaves or channels. All those lovely curves running through the engine room of the board.
Recently, Greg Webber has taken to photographing the top of his boards in the same manner, and the reason is because he’s begun dropping deck concaves into select boards. A double concave runs down the bottom of the board, and yep, a double concave runs down the top too. He’s worked the idea into a new model: The Creature.
Greg has played his part in developing bottom concaves, we all know the backstory to his banana boards, but concaves in the deck have a more obscure history. Greenough’s Velo design from the 60s had a scooped deck, while kneeboards from the 70s had gentler version of the same, and they were all made to get the rider closer to the water. Where concave decks have been used on surfboards the thinking has been similar. Todd Proctor of Proctor Surfboards says his deck concaves give the rider an “in the wave” feel.
Not surprisingly considering his impulse to experiment, deck concaves aren’t new to Greg. “My first ones were in August 2011,” says Greg. “I did a 10’6” SUP that Tom Carroll tried out...but I began working on performance boards with Beau Edwards in November 2012.”
Beau is an ex-Newport surfer now working as an osteopath at Thirroul and surfing Sandon Point whenever he can. I’ve watched him surf on Greg’s boards and also picked up a number of his prototypes marvelling at the unlikely curves.
The first impression of The Creature’s deck concaves is that they don’t match the concave underneath. Viewed in cross section, the centre line is more bulbous with the concave dipping and rising over a shorter space than the long, continuous concave underneath the board.
Like those who’ve experimented before them, Greg and Beau have found the deck concave allows the rider greater sensitivity, yet this is not just because the feet are closer to the water but also because, once the rail is engaged, there’s less foam to displace. “The board wants to go into the water through a turn,” explains Beau.
To retain overall volume, Greg has done a bit of foam shuffling making the centre line a bit thicker than usual and the edges of the rails too. For a similar length board “the volume is exactly the same,” says Greg.
Beyond the feel, the deck concave effects the way the board flexes. “The nose to tail flex is decreased while the rail to rail twist flex is increased,” says Greg. As anyone who was reading Swellnet during Flexy Week would know, twist (or torsion) is the movement that matters most on a surfboard. Greg reckons his mix of longitudinal stiffness and lateral flex works well.
Another thing Greg and Beau have discovered about deck concaves is their ergonomic quality - how it fits the body - something that Beau is attentive to through his work as an osteopath. “The concaves provide lateral grip during big turns,” says Beau. “It feels great under the arch of your foot.” But there’s also something more subtle going on.
“Because your arch is supported it allows you to drop your back knee a bit,” explains Beau as I cue up a mental image of Craig Anderson running a smooth highline at Kandui. Beau, however, is taken more by practicalities than aesthetics. “What this means is that, as you use the muscles in your lower leg, your knee is stabilised. It protects you from medial knee strain.” Good news for hipsters and old blokes alike. And no, Beau assures me the raised centre line causes no problems when laying and paddling.
Beau at the local: “The board wants to go into the water through a turn." (Clarrie Bouma)
It’s been four years since Greg last released a high performance model. Back them it was the ill-fated Banana redux. “The poor old Banana got squashed twice, and unfairly,” says Greg. “Kelly did some of the best turns he’d done on it too.” Excess rocker was the culprit so I ask Greg how The Creature compares. “The rocker is quite moderate,” is his straightforward reply.
Just like four years ago, this board has caught the eye of Kelly, who was recently seen telegraphing the future at solid Haleiwa. A sequence of a carving 360 won the internet for a day. It was a bold statement. So to was Kelly ordering three more Creatures from Greg in varying lengths. Curiously, it's not the first time Kelly has experimented with deck contours, he made a few experimental boards with deck grooves, asymmetrical planshape, and bevelled rails back in his Channel Island days.
Kelly and a carving 360. The third photo of a sequence.
“So far I’ve had three very good surfers say it’s on another level,” says Greg of the unconventional design. In the past he’s been both celebrated and chastened for his eccentricities, yet Greg's never stopped progressing. “I’ll just start making these Creatures and let surfers decide.”
Watch a video with Greg describing the design principles of The Creature
Comments
I'd love to see Kelly unleash one for Rd1 at Snapper .........
Me too! Can’t see more grip being a disadvantage out there.
yeah 4-6ft pumping snapper
Complete with Nlys to go with the endless summer we've had.
Cool, I've always thought boards should not be flat or rolled on the decks.
Im putting my money on it that this is the future in some way, not only for better control like a skateboard concave, but also to create strength or change flex etc.
PS. Haven't read thew article yet, so hoping this is the angle.
Ha ha...you commented without reading it?
Proof positive of declining attention spans and the death of long form journalism in the digital age. ;-)
Gold!
Yeah...not sure why..i often do things back to front.
I was kind of half right though, but i learnt a bit more from the article.
You’d have to assume Kelly , having nothing to lose and possible increments to gain , would happily chance hitching his star once more at the vanguard of a new board development.
If the Creatures nosedive into obscurity, Kelly moves on .
If the Creatures storm the globe , Kelly will forever cement his association with it ala Curren and the reverse Vee , ala Curren and the hybrid fish etc etc.
Stu - You surf with this Beau Edwards fella a bit , I’d imagine .....do they look like they go better or worse or exactly the same ?
Hard question !
Well, on the one hand he rips on anything, so if they are working better for him it's incremental and I don't really see him surf often enogh to tell, and on the other hand Beau is a reserved guy, fairly inscrutable, doesn't say much, so when he does it's worth listening to.
Or just another set of promotional bells and whistles to promote and sell....
Mate I’ve been making them for years for very good but pretty much unknown surfers and never marketed them or advertised them for sale since what’s the point in promoting anything in surfing unless a top 10 pro is not just riding it but loving it. Look at the turn and use your brain. If you can’t see what’s going on in that turn then you shouldn’t be commenting.
Greg youre a complete innovator within the “sport”. Without a handful of the likes of you we’d all be riding 6 something thrusters with belly channels, flat decks and boxy rails . Are you aware that Stretch Riedel has also been making concave decks for years . They are not as radical as yours but people keep on ordering them . There’s something to it .
Thanks mate and no I didn’t know he was doing them but I’m not checking much so it’s more a lack of my online activity. Thanks for the link and I’ll have a look.
Checked the Vimeo and they look nice. Big difference in characteristics between a single concave deck and the double. My brother Will is doing them and getting great results. His are deeper.
Dane Kealoha was doing carve 360's on twin fins in the early 80's and you know what works for Kelly does not work for the vast majority of surfers.......good to see that only a top 10 surfer satisfies your lust for fame and endorses your designs. Gee you must think Gary Mc Neil and Rasta are Kooks?
What a fucked opinion.
He's just upset that someone else is getting some attention for a design, but he's not happy in general so that's probably adding to his bitterness. I've learned to deal with this type of reaction from people by not disliking them no matter how bitter they get, nor how wrong they might be. It's just an exercise.
I even went back into business with a guy that over invoiced me by a factor of two or three fold, and then he took me to court for $30,000. I even had the Dee Why sheriffs officers come to my door to seize any company assets. A year later I see his wife at a petrol station and they've had a baby, I say hi nicely and wish them all well. A week later (after I'm sure she mentioned seeing me and that I wasn't angry at all) I message the guy and ask him if he'd like to do some more work, so long as we define more clearly what's to be done and for how much, (letting his clear over pricing trick be transformed into a much more palatable miscommunication issue). He says yes for sure, and admits that he's about to be evicted through lack of work over the last year. We worked out the price, coincidentally $30k again, and I said I don't need the work for about three months, but how about you start whenever you want, and I'll pay you $600 per week for a year, which was exactly how much his rent was. We are now totally OK with no hassle between us at all, and worked happily together at the same desk several times. Of course there's a time to not accept shit, and there's no need to say what that point is. Everyone has another side.
Karma
OK Sharkman I'll break down your comment above to highlight how silly that comment was.
you: Dane Kealoha was doing carve 360's on twin fins in the early 80's.
GW: 1. He's one of the greatest surfers ever so if his carve 360's were as far around on rail as what Kelly has just done, then that's amazing but what does that prove? It proves that only 2 guys in the last 40 years has been able to achieve it? How does that diminish what Kelly has just done? Even if true it does nothing to decrease how amazing that single sequence of Kelly is.
2. I remember the pics and vids of the turns he was doing and I'm pretty sure he wasn't still on rail while pointing back down the face. You find a pic of him in that position then point number 1 is still valid.
You: and you know what works for Kelly does not work for the vast majority of surfers.......
GW: gees that's a dumb thing to say mate. Who is saying that beginners or novice surfers are going to ride boards like a top pro. Nobody pushes pro level boards on less experienced surfers. So the bottom third of surfers wont be advised to use such craft but the top two thirds, who can pump for speed and do a turn or two, can ride EXACTLY the same design as the best surfers in the world, but just with dimensions and volumes to suit their skill and age and fitness.
And further still, the design that Kelly is riding, the Creature, doesn't have a radical rocker, and in fact has probably has less nose rocker than most performance shortboards on the market today. Like the entry rocker on the boards I did for Taj, mixed with some Herring and Kelly. It has it's own speed right off the mark, and is not hard to ride at all, it just has more speed and grip than anything else. You know, like a bigger engine and wider tyres but at the same price. What's bad about that?
You: good to see that only a top 10 surfer satisfies your lust for fame and endorses your designs.
GW: What an odd statement? 1. Of course it helps to prove a design if a top 10 surfer loves a certain combination, so you develop a design, they say "this thing rips" and you start making them for other surfers that are at a lower level, but still capable, from competent level up to very very good. . What do you think helped you sell thousands of reverse vees? Making boards for the best surfers in the world of course. And if you didn't have the time or inclination to make customs for everyone else then who has the right to tell you that your being egotistical? Nobody. You've worked for many years shaping all sorts of boards, and you've come up with a great combination of some extra tail rocker and a bit of flat where the flip happens, and you should gain from that.
Same here with me. I've come up with a new combination of a very deep DC on the bottom with an equally deep DC deck. In fact this is vastly more complex to get balanced than the reverse vee, so if I get some attention for it being more contoured than most boards and that critically it has created a significant jump in performance, that Kelly is describing as "other wordly" then so what if I'm happy about that. You'd be frothing if it was you.
And to finish this point, I do deal with other surfers not in the top ten. I've spent 5 years with a virtual unknown surfer developing this design. So How can you say I'm only after fame. If I was after fame I'd keep making boards for the best surfers on tour and I don't.
You: Gee you must think Gary Mc Neil and Rasta are Kooks?
GW: Why would I ? I've heard of Gary and I made boards for Rasta years ago so what's your point? Mate I'm busy as fuck with the wavepool project so if I'm not up to date on what other shapers and surfers are up to that doesn't mean I wouldn't be impressed with what they're doing. A year ago I took a deep double concave to the Goldy event and it got a lot of looks and Sherman took some cool pics, but not one pro surfer wanted to try it. Anything radical tends to scare people off, so the pro surfers played it safe. No worries. Many month later I decide to put the deck from the Creature ontop of the deep DC bottom (it usually had a standard single to DC in the tail). Showed Kelly pics of the board and he said he's keen but never asked me to send it to him. So I made one for Bob Hurley and a few other guys and just let it sit. Finally after a few months kelly said OK send it and that's why it's now being talked about. If the media or the market don't want it then that's my bad luck. Check my website, It's not even complete after years, I'm not after fame or orders, but if something feels like it could lead to a real jump in the level of surfing then that's exciting.
Might be the cure for the hectic board bumps I’ve got on my ribs.
Might also be the inspiration for a hectic board bump on my sternum.
Good point!
Hi Blowin > funny it was my 1st thought too as i suffer from that - on the ribs - I had a 1 month surf trip in nov'18 (lucky me) - the "lump" across the top and both sides of rib cage still hasn't gone away 2 mths later. any tips on how to get rid of/prevent it ? RR
Maybe we need to get a wetsuit maker to do a vest with a 10mm padded chest panel. And an old man’s lower back band that you can zip up tight so you get back support and your gut gets reduced!
Greag > I've had the same prob. on my ribs since i was 20; it was a lateral thought; looking for a solution. Go forth with your ideas, it wasn't a criticism of them at all and go in peace, I wish you well. RR
I've had a sore rib for years. Had a few goes getting it diagnosed and about to try again before an indo trip in May.
Anyway, a bloke I was chatting to said he had a dodgy rib and got a padded vest from Zee Wetsuits in qld. I ended up getting one with a thick chest panel, maybe 10mm or so. It helps.
on yah for the advice on how to keep surfing; not sure how to prevent, in case it helps you resolve the medical term is "increased uptake at the anterior costal margins bilaterally, suggests mechanical trauma, common for surfers"
Solved:-
For years I cut out a rectangular 3mm thick neoprene piece and glue to the inside of my wetsuits.
Width about 20 x 10 cm. Glue to inside. Outside and ends will lift when rubbing on the deck - will peel off.
Trick is placement, put on your wetty, get a marking pen and mark on outside problem area. Use as reference point for inside. And bunnings glue works as long as water proof. I like building glues as stronger,
It reduces the rib problem I'd say 60-70%.
( note:- I found 6mm too think for inside of wetty)
hey logical > thanks for that precise information > makes sense > I'm gonna give it a go
Great topic but can;t help a snippet on this too...I had a loop monitor inserted into the inside of my left pec for heart monitoring and made up a piece of EVA foam about 12" x 1.5" and 15mm thick with a chamfer to match a bit of back arch. Adhesive velcro each end and an elastic strap around your back. Worked a treat til a wave at Namotu ripped it off in September.
All that foam out of the deck just means sinker to me
Through lack of volume? Or denting?
Hi Greg,
I'd imagine that removing the extra foam from the deck increases the incidence of dentage/compression marks as you're exposing the softer foam in the centre of the blank. Short term - extra grip for your feet, but long term - delamination. i.e. a shorter lifespan for the Creature, surely?
What, if any, measures are you thinking of to counter this effect?
Quite the opposite actually.
You would be surprised !
Could be something in it . Some of my favourite sticks have been double concaves with well and truly sunken decks.
Yeah I agree there.
I was trying to imagine what the concave deck would be like and realised that the board i ride mostly at the moment (which i absolutely love and will cry the day it snaps) has some pretty good indentation on the deck, just from use, and i swear it does make me feel "closer to the water" and thus results in a feeling of more control... I'd be very interested to ride a board with a deliberate concave on the deck, it definitely sounds like something that will one day become standard for surfboards.
Keep the innovations coming Greg, cheers.
Hi Greg,
I hope this finds you well.
The creature looks sick. I hope the wave pool is progressing.
Just wondering if Jimmy Young-Whitforde has done any shaping for/under/with you of late? and if you could correct my crumpled newspaper like memory as to something vaguely about Jimmy shaping a board that Slater picked up and rode successfully in a comp out Chopes or Cloudbreak?
Cheers in advance.
Power to the people.
Thanks. Yeah he finish shaped this board that Kelly rode. And got my bottom rails perfectly but as happens with very new shapers, he went off track a little and started tucking the rail under more than what I do so I had to give him shit and get back in he bay and remind him. But he’s got accurate quite quickly and that’s the main thing. Very good surfer too. Not sure about the earlier board for Slater though.
Thanks Greg, much appreciated.
SO did the board come off a machine or a handshape?
you don't shape your own boards?
SO did the board come off a machine or a handshape?
you don't shape your own boards?
I've got a stretch with the single concave "skate deck" has a real nice feel under foot
No doubt the concave decks give a unique feel. I wonder if something a little similar to deck grips that have that slight dome in the middle. May even give a little more 'grip' or feeling of control through turns as mentioned above.
One thing that I could not agree on is that comment regarding 'arch support', 'allowing back knee to bend more' and providing 'more stability to the knee' hence preventing injuries.
No disrespect to Beau but that's pretty far fetched.
For starters the curve in the concave would not be sufficient to 'support' a normal anatomical arch. Secondly if it did support it, then it would actually prevent excessive valgus movement (read: knee drop) at the knee rather than increase it. Thirdly, if you did increase this valgus (read: knee drop) movement you are effectively increasing your risk of strain to the Medial Collateral Ligament. All of the above unscientific claims assume that the rider places their foot directly in the middle of the deck which, if you're anything like myself, does not happen regularly.
But sure........it may feel nice / different / insert adjective
Ok all the explanations about the actual anatomical aspects will be hard to understand by most readers but if you try to imagine two foot angles while surfing then the safer or less stressed option might seem more obvious. Ok so imagine a very deep single concave deck and what your foot angle would be like just at rest. It’s already compressing the small bones in your ankle. Now imagine the deck of the Creature and exaggerate it a bit. The ankle is now open with far more room to move before the ankle gets compressed to its maximum. Just do a drawing and it’s even more obvious. It must decrease the chance of any ankle or knee injury to have the ankle more open than having the foot pushed backwards already to its limit.
I understand your concept, but theories and hypotheses don't equate to fact. Exaggerating drawings or ideas does not help with the reality of the actual contours of your deck.
Unless someone has some kind of predisposition, people don't get knee and foot injuries from doing turns or trimming along a wave. The foot is designed so it happily compresses/decompresses with all physiological movement we put it through. These joints only get injured from significant forces that are either a) pushing a joint past its physiological norm or beyond which the fitness (strength / flexibility) of the individual can handle e.g. getting compressed in barrels or landing airs. Highly tuned athletes with all the lower limb strength, proprioception and timing in the world still suffer knee / ankle injuries (JJF, Felipe) - its down to force.
There is no way your subtle curves are doing anything to prevent that and as such suggesting the board 'must' reduce injury is just pie in the sky.
Not knocking the board, great idea but claims about injury prevention and the likes with zero evidence might need to be taken off the flyer
Most facts if not all facts about anything complex start by being theories. You’re just trying to Pooh Pooh an idea so that people will think you’re smart. You haven’t surfed one and everything you are saying is as likely to be true as what Beau and I are saying. The way you go to the negative so fast highlights your lack of capacity to just try to look at the changes to foot angle as being potentially good in some way. But the biggest thing you’re ignoring is the feeling that it gives the surfer. Try looking at a modern pair of scissors for the tiny little curves in the hand and thumb openings that make it fit the hand comfortably. What that does is make your hand not have to grip the tool consciously. Then the brain can concentrate on the cutting and be far more accurate. Another example is when shapers use a bit of gauze or sandpaper loosely wrapped over a with block with some sponge (urethane foam) on it. An alternative is to accurately and neatly glue the paper to the sponge and the sponge to the block so that they become one unit and you can then lightly hold the tool and have full focus on the way it is used. As a result you can hear and feel the vibration and drag variations and without even looking at the board you can take off the high spots with far more accuaracy. Purely by just making the link between the body and the tool more comfortable far more awareness of the movements and feedback becomes possible. I think this is what’s happening with a deck shape that fits the foot. Pretty fucking obvious I think.
Greg I think your pooh pooh theories are just that, as you want to sound smart , by dreaming up stuff that is nonsensical.....otherwise you would answer some of the questions that you call negative!
Brother Will "One of Wills" has been shaping these too for the local crew.
He sure has. Some absolute gems
Agree with blowin.
that concave could really put pressure on the sternum (speaking from experience)
particularly on long sessions requiring long paddles.
Yes some surfers might feel a bit of a difference on the chest but not enough to worry about. If they have an issue with their sternum and wanted a custom I could widen the deck convex at the chest. But I rode one for many weeks and didn’t notice a thing.
hey greg, I have a possible solution to your sternum problem . the deck concave need only come as far as the front foot goes up the board so if you stop the concave there then the high point of the concave won't hit the sternum. This will only work on a longer board where you are more forward when paddling. On a side note the tail has a tail pad which has a built in arch support so you don't need any deck concave there either. The other option is to leave the surfboard as is and get those old crusty surfers to do some yoga and strength exercises so they can lift their sternum off the board. Like we used to do when we were groms. Just a thought
PS. I reckon it would go good on the forehand with that arch under the feet
Here's Kelly Slater's experimental deck concave boards mentioned in the article. They were shaped in 2009.
wtf? any info or vision of kelly or anyone actually riding these stu? looks like a recipe for a shit session and a twisted ankle
looks like he was fucking around with a reject blank.
And we’ve created a new page for the Creature and will have it as webbersurfboards.com soon. Trouble with the previous server
Availability of the board too the public?
Hi Nick, custom only at the moment. You can email me directly and we can discuss. [email protected]
Hey Greg, Do you feel the "creature" is for bigger and better type waves with the hold aspect of the bottom contours or something that will translate into the more grovel type conditions in it's current form ?
Cheers
Sorry to say but all wave sizes. The Creature is very quick off the mark so will be great as a shorter wider small wave board. I’ll be doing a 10 footer for Brent Symes soon for 20 foot waves and I’ve done a 56 groveller for junk and even did a kneeboard for the full range of feedback. One thing I’ll alter slightly is the rate at which the concaves fade in and out. The bigger the waves the smoother the graduation since you don’t want too much lift in big waves.
Hey Greg,
That email address is having some issues is it ? " Undeliverable domain not found "
Yeah annoying, unknown error keeps popping up when we try to cancel the old domain name and transfer to the new server will have it sorted by tomorrow
Ok this will work for the moment
https://webbersurfboards.squarespace.com
I read on here the other day (though I can't remember the thread) that there's been no innovations in surfboards for 30 years, but a deck contoured in the right way seems like more than just a novelty and could possibly prove whoever wrote it wrong. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.
Not quite what I said.....
Name five innovations in the last thirty years ?
Wouldn't something like this, that allows a greater area of the foot to be in contact with the deck , give greater stability and control? Sounds like a winner.
Yes for sure. The way the feet wrap over the curve of he centre spine feels great, it gives you a new awareness of where your feet are from rail to rail which we have never had due to the deck shape. We have always had a flat or evenly curved deck profile with only tail pads and deep denting giving any feeling from side to side.
I’d agree since the last big change after the tri fin in 1981 was the concave replacing vee bottoms in 1992. All manner of three fin combinations had been tried before but Simon’s version not only felt better but had no hangups. The concave has also been tried by many shapers over several decades but again always with some kind or drawback. So readers have to not get distracted when comments are made which say that “this is nothing new, so and so was making these 20 years ago” so fucking what! And did their combination transform the industry? No. Because it probably wasn’t exactly right and had some flaws. Very rarely does a shaper come up with something that’s a breakthrough but due to lack of profile or money or team riders the design never gets recognised. So here’s an example, a mate of mine Patrick Garvan asked me to make a board with three fins of exactly the same size and shape that were about ⅔ the size of regular twin fins. And he asked me to place the third fin behind the front fins where the front of the back fin is level with the backs of he front fins. It went very well but had he only suggested moving it back an inch or two he would have found the exact same configuration as Simon did, in 1979! Had we used a tail fin box we would have moved it around. So close, and totally unknown. Actually I’d love to hear of all the boards and fin combinations that were so close to what dominated our board industry but never got known.
Got any photos of that one Greg?
I did an article on three-finned boards before the Truster a few years back. Got to speak to Bob MacT (shaped a tri fin in 1966), Ben Aipa, PT (shaped a few tris in the 70s), Nev (shaped a tri fin for Kanga to surf in the '81 Bells), and Mitchell Rae (shaped a tri fin in '78), plus quotes from Reno who shaped tris with Brewer in 1970.
All of them swimming in the same waters as Simon.
Article includes lots of photos of those almost-boards. Would be good to add to it.
https://www.swellnet.com/news/rearview-mirror/2017/03/21/three-fins-thruster
no reply yet from Pat re tri fin
True grit !
Hats off to you again Greg !
Bring it !
Thanks Dean! ...but over what? What I just wrote or the Creature?
I like this concept of the double double concave. Watched the tutorial it made a lot of sense.
Then watched the footage wowsers.!
Cool stuff Greg, good to see your always pushing design. Just a thread hijack to Radiationrules as you asked...I suffer from bruised rib syndrome too. At the suggestion from fellow Swill nuts I got 5mm neoprene sown into the chest of a rashie, cost $40 and works a treat (thanks guys) still gets sore but makes it manageable. Back to the subject, look forward to following the progress off these boards.
Yeah that’s the go for sure. I tried to get front zip vests made in China with theee thicknesses of neoprene for chest and lower back but they couldn’t do it so easily so I got 50 standard ones with zips and w logo as an idea to give to customers only and they were so well made but so badly over sized in
The sleeves that they resembled a footy jumper from the 50s.
I get bruised ribs too, sometimes even wear holes through the skin at my bottom ribs (which have ulcerated a few times - not fun!). I bought myself a rashie from the ocean & earth outlet at sussex inlet recently that had a padded chest panel (felt like maybe 2 or 3mm neoprene), which works a treat.
I use to get those too and same issue, but i found the solution to it by accident, I got married and had a kid which equals not bone thin anymore and less time in water.
Ha! Same here.
Good that they exist then
Here he does a 360 but not the same one as the sequence but still, he’s at full power and on rail when her at 180 degrees.
Hope no glitches
Here's the vid that Greg linked to above. Key point is the length of the bottom turn arc, taking it up past vertical while carving. Tail doesn't kick out till near the apex of the wave.
Curiously, I was watching early footage of Slater the other day after Taylor Steele dropped it online, and he pulled a few carving 360s. Really loose and dynamic moves, with KS running through all the angles while using up all the wave face. They were more slidey than the carving turn above, yet however they're done, the carving 360 is a great manouvre, always a surprise when you see them, and you've gotta wonder why more pro surfers dont include them in their armoury.
judges stopped scoring them is why.
Would seem to make sense, but is it correct? The only other surfer besides KS who'd pull them was Bede Durbidge and I recall him being rewarded when he'd pull one out of the bag.
I've got a tendency to think it's a fashion thing. Like the way no-one did layback hacks through the 90s and early 00s till AI made 'em fashionable again.
I've seen judges lowball both Kelly and Bede for them.
Thing is, there are hard, radical versions and much softer looking versions.
The hard, radical ones seem to have a much lower make rate.
Still, no reason why Kelly shouldn't put one out there early on and see how the wind is blowing. Maybe judges will get excited?
Yeh, at 2-3 foot snapper it's not very interesting but if he does it on a wave as solid as above or bigger then it should be worthy of a score.
That’s exactly it. The earlier you slide the tail the better the make rate and it gets vastly harder and almost impossible to carve the whole way since by the time you get to the lip it’s throwing, since you’re going backwards towards it. And of course the amount of grip is what has also made it hard to carve backwards past vertical before you get half way to the lip which of course needs to be done if you are going to keep the same radius of turn and not slide or pivot. One of the freeze frames I sent you Stu shows him going past vertical and not even half way up the face.
I always thought that the “ circle surfing “ secret manoeuvre to which Brad Gerlach referred when he was coaching Connor Coffin was the same carving 360 cutback which Shane Herring almost pulls on a small right whilst riding a Webber banana in Monty Webber’s Herro movie .
Never seen one attempted before let alone ever successfully completed.
1:10 minute mark.Nice article, I been riding concave decks for a few years now, well they weren't designed that way and no brand mentioned here but it surprises me how most boards in the modern era suffer from sunken deck syndrome. On a more serious nostalgic note, I onced owned a McCoy frozen D and if I remember those decks seemed to have a slight concave. It had a livey feel to it like Greg mentions it felt closer to the water, later on I had Morning Star make me a similar board with a concave through from tail to chest area and loved it. I really dont like the feel of a rolled deck to rail, the flat to concave deck felt more intune paddling and surfing to me back then. This is an exciting development and look forward to hopefully seeing that convex rolled deck a thing of the nostalgic past.
I remember the frozen daffodil McCoy’s. What a smart ass hey. “Hot Buttered” was probably the most revered boards at the time so he makes up “frozen daffodil” as a joke when daffodil was the most common margarine. And I remember a beautiful McCoy Reno model that had a fully concaves deck nose to tail and it was so nice to ride.
Few things immediately come to mind reading this article.
Any board with light glass surfed often ends up close to this after a few months or even a few weeks for powerfull surfers. My favorite few have fairly deep areas for each foot and obviously high in the middle as you cant compress the stringer. How much different can this be to shaping them in?
If you shape these concaves in from the start with standard glassing will they then become way too deep once the board is actually surfed? There is a point when the deck is so dented that the stringer sticking up becomes a problem.
Every pro hand me down i've seen is dented beyond belief when you look closely. I had an ex Jordy Smith team light CI and the front foot area was compressed down about half an inch in a 1 foot area almost rail to rail not just perfect foot size areas either side of the stringer. Not surprising when you consider a 90kg guy landing airs etc.
I often find my feet towards the rail slightly when going forehand in hollower waves just trying to hold in and get down the line. The double concaves could feel a bit off putting in that situation.
Ive heard some board shape talk regarding leverage over rails due to standing higher over the rail on rolled decks. Would standing lower in the board then give you less leverage over the actual rail?
You said denting can get “Close to this after a few months” mate you’re totally dreaming if you think the standard level of denting on boards, even team boards, is even half of what this deck shape is like. Have a look at the section pic from the shaping program in Stu’s intro story. Even the most dented ones I’ve seen still don’t get to this shape. I’ve seen some very rare ones over the decades that have totally caved in from faulty spongey foam but that’s not happening these days even with pros surfer boards, and it’s not even vaguely the same shape.
I don't think the concave deck interrupts the pivotal influences of heel and front pad/toe pressure , in fact, with similar boards, at critical parts of a turn full pressure is directly driven through the leg, centrally above the stringer , without fully dispersing that energy laterally through the feet . The heel and toe still act as faster twitching muscles to account for rail sensitivity and finesse ,but the power comes from the trunk.
I once asked a shaper if he would replicate one of my concaves with the sunken deck and got talking about it for ages , needless to say I didn't get the concave deck , but a 4 ounce glassjob with no finish coat and 4 months later,, presto
I’ll have to do a drawing to describe what’s happening since more than one person has disagreed with the foot angle difference in terms of ligament and muscle and joint alignments. And although as Beau said there may be some decreases in injury due to the angle difference I’ll have to stand on one and bend around more to see if it’s changing the angles at which your knee aligns. Nevertheless I am talking more about the fact that your foot is not so close to 90degrees when curled over the centre roll. It’s pointing down into the water and I think there will be far more clarity of sensation sent to the brain if the foot isn’t already close to its maximum position backwards. If you flex your foot through the full range from 90 degrees to the shin bone and to virtually parallel to the shin bone then why wouldn’t it be better to have the foot at an angle somewhere between these two limits? Not already at the upper limit.
I agree with this design have noticed some of my boards going better as I slowly compress the deck in certain points with my feet in the first couple of months,also noticed a lot of big name off the rack boards no strength in the deck due to machine shaping to much of the tough skin from the blank getting left on as much as possible to the point foot tears glass ooff stringer wrecks $800 + big name board in under 6 months,big name surfboard shapers putting machine shapes off the rack please explain,doesn’t seem to happen with customs
Taking to much of the tough deck skin off the blank I meant
This shouldn’t be happening with stock boards anymore than custom and if anything should be the other way around since the board maker will have a set blank rocker for the stock we’ll and truly suited to the machine file. However if they are a lazy company then they tend to buy masses of bigger thicker blanks so that they can cut many more shapes from the one blank and then you are right. If they’re cutting a curvy 6’0” from a thick and less rockered 6’9” blank then they will be plowing into foam and digging into the softer deck foam below.
Agreed, I was thinking a light yellow/beige foam spray with a couple of splodges in various shades of light brown to finish off the look. Maybe a couple of ### in random places to add to the effect.
With regards to the flex pattern I wonder how the double concave on top and bottom affect the overall strength of a board compared to a single convex deck? Intuition makes me think a convex deck would provide more strength in the skin, reinforced by the stringer.
Obviously there's increased lateral flex in the double/double.
Another thing to consider. When flex is incorporated as part of the design theres the corresponding weakening in the mechanical bond between the resin/glass and the foam over time. Flex would increase with wear and tear.
Sorry to disagree totally but why do you think corrugated iron or sheet materials of any sort are so stiff one way along the lines of ridges and valleys and still flexy at 90 degrees across the corrugations. There will be a slight stiffening nose to tail and a slight increase in strength from snapping.
Great idea for immediately supporting your feet. My favourite boards' decks were reformed from rear foot pressure. Always felt firm, positive, for driving / carving turns. Maybe foot size /support will be a question shapers will consider, if you ask. Would longer to glass and sand though.
Inspirational surfing again from Kelly....
Yeah not fun for glasser or sander. Sorry guys!!
Bruised ribs guys? Try a bit of bubble wrap down the wetty.... I’ve patented it though
Love it! Did you really patent the idea? Not sure if it would be possible.
Ha Nah Greg. A mate if my old mans showed me when I was a kid after he hurt his ribs. Turns out it keeps you warmer as well! Wait till Rip Curl release their next wetty with “in built air cushioning” and call it the air bomb....
Ha Nah Greg. A mate if my old mans showed me when I was a kid after he hurt his ribs. Turns out it keeps you warmer as well! Wait till Rip Curl release their next wetty with “in built air cushioning” and call it the air bomb....
I have a quick steamer that has airated neoprene, super warm, super flexible.
Ha classic! Yeah it makes sense to thicken the material where our chest hits the board and it’s just a low demand issue I think which is why it’s not so available.
I want to try one, whats your best contact details Greg?
Cool. You can email me on [email protected] and we can chat by phone if needed too.
Y'all catching up now?
Double concave decks work, for all the reasons Greg states. I made some personal riders, amongst the handmade Firewire prototypes, in 2005.
Stability - arch of your foot all in contact with the board, is the main thing.
Here's Pics - https://www.facebook.com/pg/Josh-Dowling-Shape-Custom-Composite-Surfboar...
JD
I can't see those shots but I'll try to hunt them down elsewhere.
Hope you're doing well Josh.
Hey Tree,
If you would stop that whinging about being allergic to your materials you could get back on that epoxy horse and shape us up a couple......
Good on you Josh, link didn’t work though
Thanks JD......I knew you had been experimenting/refining this concept.
Good to see you're lurking behind the scenes here Josh.
Your composite build technique would be one way to get around the eventual delamination issues arising from the softer foam being exposed by shaping in the deck concaves, although you mainly used EPS for your cores didn't you, so it's not comparing apples with apples.
I'd be interested to hear from you and Greg (and anyone else, for that matter) on how this could be circumvented on a standard PU/PE build. A heavier glassing schedule is all very well, but compressive strength is really dictated by the strength of the substrate, not the skin, amiright?
Performance is a big factor to consider, but in this day and age, the longevity/sustainability of the design should also come into play.
Well I’m only guessing but I’m thinking that the slightly softer foam that’s being exposed will decrease strength nose to tail less than the the four angled sections will increase strength. If you look at the section view and see where the deck concaves are at their deepest then you’ll see that the band of glass at this point is at its most useless angle anyway. ie flat to the forces. The sides on the two concaves are angled to the forces and resist flex, just like the stringer and rails do. Maybe not to the same degree since they’re not at 90 degrees to the forces but even 45 degrees is vastly better than no angle at all. So yes a little loss on the two flats but a bigger gain on the four sides where the foam is stronger too.
That makes sense, once I managed to wrap my head around it. Thanks again for your responses Greg. It's great to be able to hear/read it straight from the horse's mouth/hoofs.
Hi Stu -
Is there a way to post pics here? There's no clues on the comment function.
Surfstarved -I can get back to you on that...bit rushed just now
JD
Best bet is use a third party image host like Imgur, or just email them to me to post.
[email protected]
I always had trouble with copy/pasted links from facebook...They only open on a laptop, not phone,.
Anyway I mailed the pics.
The last personal rider I left half-shaped after leaving my epoxy gig, was an 8ft gun with concave deck going into arch bar. My current keepers are single concave decks. I'm procrastinating over any attempt to match the goodness in poly, alas.
JD
OK, here's Josh's examples of double concave decks. For those unaware, Josh was an early advocate of EPS foam and epoxy resin, and he shaped under his own label through the 90s before hooking up first with Bert Burger then with Nev at Firewire. He developed much of the production method that FW used/uses.
For those who can't see Josh's link above it's the following photos with this text:
"The Double Concave Deck Thing... These pics are of some of my favourite personal boards, all from around 2005...they’re differerent. Something I have had on the go for a while, the obvious development of the single concave deck. I Made a couple of single concave decks and just figured I’d take it one step further. The double concave deck (DCD) takes volume out from under your heel and toes, replacing it at an apex line 4-5in from the outline. There’s a couple of levels on which the double concave deck functions. Firstly, its an arch-bar. There’s more board surface in contact with your feet, so it gives a feeling of stability. This is the most tangible advantage of the DCD. (If you’re flat-footed, the single concave will fit best. ) Secondly, the feet are closer to the water . This gives sensitivity to the ride, helping with the reaction times that allow you to make the most of quick direction changes. It compensates well for the EPS flotation. I like them, and I’d like to hear from a willing guinea-pig who would go with one on his or her custom JD..."
Great comments fellas. And great boards JD.
I've got one of those Brewers that were around a few years back, hollow with kevlar deck and carbon fibre hull. Controlled flex release was the object I think, Years of R&D then they went broke after a few years,( I think). Incredible board (semi-gun), could feel it bending and straightening underfoot. After a while the internal frame collapsed under my back foot first, then a bit under my front. The surprising thing was that I felt the board was even better with my back foot sinking an inch or so into the deck.
It got retired a while back but after reading all this I think it might get another run next swell.
Thanks for your earlier response Greg, also borne out by comments above.
Not all of us are built like Hobbits - big feet and hands , short legs, low center of gravity, although can think of a few ex world champs that were.
Pleasure mate. It’s good to see others have experimented with deck concaves but the bottom of the board still doing more than the deck.
Pending...
I think its actually both Greg.
When people are cutting back front side (pending on surfer) they might actually be able to use the deck concave with their front foot and bury the heal side rail even more.
Same for bottom turning (especially backhand) I.e pigdoging.
So if Kelly does like these boards what does that mean for his brand firewire?
Well so far he’s said a couple of things that make me think that he is considering it. I’d love them to sell many of them all over the globe to pay them back for the losses they must have taken on the banana. Kelly has ordered three more and I’m making customs so the feedback over the next month or two will be the deciding factor, but I already have 5 years with one team rider using them exclusively and he’s a smooth and powerful surfer so I’m pretty sure there’s nothing negative in any way at all. All performance characteristics seem to have jumped up a level. And kelly did say there’s no board on earth that rides like this one, and that he can go past vertical at will, or words to that effect. And it’s not a banana! The nose rocker is quite low at just over 4 ½” on kelly’s so it has a very fast entry rocker. No need to pump for speed.
remember you commenting that the banana board designed surfboard was too advanced for Kelly , did you ever find anyone who could ride them to their full potential?
I can’t remember saying it but I think it’s got more capacity for new lines than anyone needs at the moment. Herring and Slater both did turns they’d never done before which means probably nobody else has, but they still have be used in contests and they are not super easy to control at times so I understand why they get dropped. Just watching the higher levels of grip and speed and response catching both surfer off guard is why I would say that. Herring does a fast cutback on a right at Avalon and just keeps the arc going but doesn’t know what to do next since he’s never been in that position and now kelly is getting into some uncharted territory with his carve 360 so maybe it’s just as much about the grip as the rocker.
Have you got any proof of Herring and Slater doing turns that no-one else has probably ever done?
You do know that Dane Kealoha did carving 360 turns in the 80's on a twin fin?
Also your theory about burying the rail.....you do know that the rail does not bury as you suggest ??
Not sure if proof is even possible since it's subjective, but if someone significantly respected passes an opinion on such a level (ie best ever surfing or best ever turns) then I'd tend to believe it, especially if it doesn't help them at all to be saying it, since it was a rival.
OK then for Herring, how about the greatest surfer of all time, Kelly Slater telling me he just watched a video on Herro that my brother Monty made about 5 years ago and he said that he couldn't believe the turns that Herring was doing, that he was not sure why he and the rest of us didn't realise how far ahead his rail turns were, and that nobody since 1992 has matched what he did. How's that for justification of the Herring claim, good enough?
Then for Kelly, just look at the sequence of the 360 attempt. If you can't see the profound difference between what he's done there, and all other "carve" 360s you've ever seen over the last few decades where the tail slides so much earlier, then there's not much point in me discussing anything with you. But my guess is that you are a very good shaper, and you've been left behind or not as popular as you once were and you're just plain old bitter about some other shaper getting some attention.
Don't you know that every shaper on earth thinks that he's better than he is? And that's because of the mix between our ego, and not even knowing where the bad parts of the board are since the only reason those not so good areas are there at all is because they just can't see them!
No crime in that but as a result every shaper sees what seems to be fucking great but it's actually not that good. I saw an Arakawa once in 1988 or 89 and i looked at the tail at an angle that I didn't usually look from, kind of close up and at a height that intersected a curved plane near the tail, and I saw something beautiful or less ugly, and yet i didn't quite know what it was. That told me that before that moment I didn't know that I was worse than that shaper. Then I could see the curved planes totally clearly from then on and so experimented further and my shaping improved. So any shaper on earth can check any other shapers board, but they can't really copy shapers that are a lot better since the things that make the boards better aren't really there at all. And here's another little anecdote from the more recent past. Rod Dahlberg helped me in a way not many shapers ever do, actually made me templates by tracing his ones onto some building paper in 1975, and for decades he commented critically on any new experiment I ever did. annoying but useful. One day years after we had both had our runs with having world champs, he showed me a board that i think was for him. I held in that way that surfers and shapers do, hanging from the hands so you can look along the rocker side on. I said "Lovely Rod, ...beautiful work" Then he said" "Now tell me what you can see that I can't see" Only when the ego is totally removed and you know and accept your strong and weak areas, you can ask something like that. It's the best way to learn anything.
So no proof about your claims , just subjective , seems you are talking about one session and surf from 25 years ago to justify your boards of today...and tos ay no-one has turn a turn since like that is pure fantasy...or you haven't watched surfing in the last 10 years.
Did Kelly really say that , really wondering after some of your claims , and we all know that Kelly's boards only work for him , so hard to extrapolate his surfing to boards for the mere mortals of the surfing world.
OK now you get personal(lets not get into your personal life!) and your quote " But my guess is that you are a very good shaper, and you've been left behind or not as popular as you once were and you're just plain old bitter about some other shaper getting some attention." .....I thought we were discussing surfboard design , and I have simply asked questions that you are unable to answer as there is very little technical substance to what you say....but you spin a great yarn even if most of what you say is big words , nonsensical statements ...but you do get the media's attention , well done , like with your pool...
but lets get back to the tech side of things....you still have not explained how the board bury's into the wave for grip , which does not happen....so your theory of DC double s is flawed...what is the hidden draw back in deep singles?
Hi Greg would be very interested for you to answer the following....
Do you actually think that the board bury's into the wave and that with all your descriptions of Vees/SC's/and Dc's that the board is in the wave and planing on the edges?
Have you ever surfed and looked back at the tail of the boards and seen that the board is actually planing on both sides of the board and that during turns all three fins are in the water?
Do you understand that if 45cm of the board is always in the water (rail to rail turns) and that water flow comes off both sides of the board including the tail,so therefore there is displacement of water , but the board is not buried to the point where the rail is buried in the wave??
Not 100% sure what you are asking me.
But it seems like you think that I’m thinking that only the rails are giving the hold? And not the fins ? I’m ignoring all things on the bottom of the board that are not being changed so that we can discuss the only thing that is being changed and that is the way the inside rail hooks over at a steeper angle than nearly all other concaves. And what that does effects grip. And like deep single concaves deep double concaves increase grip. There’s no need to discuss the things that are held static. It’s just the usual scientific method idea. Then the effects of the deck concaves can be considered in combination with the bottom.
I watched your video where you draw a diagram of a wave with the rail buried into the wave , where you say the hook of the concave gives you grip ...but the rail does not penetrate the wave it planes on top of the water.
If the board is planing and displacing water , how can it give you grip?
Because of the angle that it’s entering the water at while your foot angle is unchanged. Make a rolled bottom to remind yourself of the difference in grip between the two similarly curved sections but one is flipped. I made a heavy rolled bottom with ten channels nose to tail and the roll won the battle. Shit grip despite ten hard edged channels. So that’s what I’m talking about an that’s why herring did the severe turn that he did in 1992 at Avalon. Mate Ask simon Anderson and jody perry and Peter aitcheson about that surf.
the rail does not enter the water it hydroplanes on the edges , either soft or hard!
You are talking about friction/wetted surface area when you talk grip , so yes the rolled bottom creates more drag and grip , so isnt the object to create a faster board with grip , which means less wetted surface area?
Because it does and if I know who you are you should know that. I did a very deep double concave for a team rider and it had no fins, and although he could make it slide he could also get grip and project forward and actually pump the board. The thing with singles is that their grip does not keep up with the lift as they get deeper whereas with doubles within a slight vee it does. (i've done doubles within singles and they are amazing but unforgiving. The planing effect on the flat (when both rails are in the water as your square off at the bottom of the wave before doing a bottom turn) is where you can see pretty much the same lift between singles and doubles but much more grip with the double as it goes on rail. So the double can go deeper into the wave and that is why more futuristic turns will result. If the depth of the single and the double are the same but the the double is half the width then of course the curve must be way tighter with the DC and so the rail will enter the water already tilting down. Im just favouring the increase in grip so long as the lift can be retained.
once again you use statements about grip and "can go deeper into the waves" ....but where on the board, the back 45 cm of a surfboard is always in the water , so isn't it more pertinent to talk about how the deep concave evolves into the tail of the board and the affect of concaves around the fins.......I know all the tests I have done singles are much faster with better control at high speeds , but no concave around the back central fin...doubles reach a certain speed and then lift out as the water angles acroos the board into the fins at between 26 and 32 degrees , so the spine on a double acts as breaking point in front of the fins...ever surfed a double and then grabbed a grinder , take out spine of the double so there is now a single...nite and day!
As a way of understanding how you can get grip without fins just look at water skiers. No fins at all. All rails and edge. And when the rocker of the ski bends to match the arc of the turn and not bend any more than that, then the grip is phenomenal. That’s why I made a rectangular board to observe the factors that relate to grip and lift. There’s a video of Adam Robertson riding it on my Facebook page.
And as far as how I think about the contact between the board and the wave I am most influenced by the shape of the dent that the board makes in the wave face and how the board behaves on the dent that it’s making. I made two 6” deep finless concaves decades ago to get a feel for the dent that the board makes. Those two weird boards taught me more about how concaves function than all of he rideable concave experiments I’ve ever done, and so when I see certain boards on a wave face I can more easily tell what the bottom of the board will look like by the way the water exits the rails and tail. So yes I do think about the way the board moves into and over the water.
by dent in the water I think you mean displacement , wow 6" deep finless , damn how fast were you able to go , and do turns?
Not talking displacement really, I'm talking about the balance between planing on a new surface that the board is actually making as it gets pushed into the wave and the grip that the board is providing at at the same time, where the inside edge forms the inside limit of the surface.
when the board is pushed into the wave , must be incredibly slow if not hydroplaning and displacing water?
Kelly would licence the design from Greg most likely, and off to the races they go.
Yep. Simple agreement. But who knows.
It's happened before.
I think it was back in the 90's when Munga Barry started getting Nev to shape some "foot wells" into his boards after one of his favourites started going better after the inevitable compressions started to form under his feet and he tried to replicate it. Hmmm, didn't Nev start firewire, and now we have a firewire innovator espousing it's virtues, and the new owner of firewire riding a new shape with foot wells? Yes, I read your comment about not getting new innovations right, and re-designing Greg, but this series of firewire people made me laugh.
Not sure what you’re getting at sorry.
It’s not like someone like me would need to have someone else gouge out some footwells to go “oh wow that’s a good idea and then copy it.” Even if it was 30 years ago. Any shaper in the 90’s got to see big denting on decks and then when you make new boards you know he feeling is different on the new one and you hardly notice the very slow changes on the one you’ve been riding. So most of us have known it is an area to explore one day but only a very small handful have delved deeply into them. And none have become a resounding success so that’s all that’s possible now with the greatest surfer of all time rating very highly the new mix of very deep doubles on both sides. And my first concave deck was a knee board in 1975 I made with brother john then another in 1983 or 84. And then many versions over the last 9 or 10 years. So I’ve been keen to play with it well in the past.
Hey Greg check out' Surf n show ',Noel Salas...get him to do a review on the Creature.....
Good idea he’s good.
Good idea Simba. There's things going on both sides of the board, so an independent critique would be helpful.
Here’s the link for the Creature until we get the server issue and domain name back again
https://webbersurfboards.squarespace.com
Hi Greg.
Any negatives in terms of lack of release? I'm looking at the photos on your website and seeing the 'bitey' part of the double concave curving inwards towards the tail (following the rail curve), and although the concaves fade towards the tail, I can't help but wonder how they feel to surf. Any conflict between the toe in of the fins and the toe out of the concaved rail line?
Would love hear more, and see more. The boards look super intriguing! Best of luck.
Great question about the concave at the tail curving around with the tail planshape, my pet hate so it doesn’t have any of that. It might look like it but the fade off in concave depth happens more quickly than the planshape curves around and so if you drew some diagonal lines across the bottom of the board approximating the water flow direction you’ll see absolutely no “hook down” effect which is what you’re talking about. So the release is instantaneous. Watch the video to see how fast the board disengages from the lip on one of kelly’s top turn quick lip slices, he actually gets out of synch a tiny bit due to how quickly it disengaged and released. And what I was extra happy about is that despite that his momentary balance wobble the board reconnected with the wave dead evenly rail to rail. Meaning that due to the lift points of the concaves being higher than the vee spine (opposite of a single concave) it landed and the first rail to feel water just tipped back until he second rail hit, a microsecond later. That’s the board not the surfer. That one wave he rides shows so many characteristics from one board that I probably don’t need any more feedback again. I just wish he would send me the video at full res soon! Said he would but I’m lucky to get a sequence of messages from the guy as it is. Nobody in surfing has so many people wanting stuff from him.
Thanks, Greg!
And good to hear. (I don't like the 'hook down' either).
I'll watch that video a few times more, paying attention to your points.
What made you aware of that flaw in tail concaves?
First of all, a disclaimer: I'm no shaper (but have shaped about 30 boards), but I think about things, and I have a science background.
I looked at a lot of boards, most of them modern single to double concave, that had the deepest concave through the fins, coinciding with the greatest curve in the outline. WIth the fins toed in, I thought that the water flow would be forced in two different directions.
The ones I managed to surf, that had these attributes, all seemed to require a lot of input (pumping) to get moving, and just didn't feel right to me. Maybe my mind was telling me they couldn't possibly work properly :-)
I can't argue with the Thousand Monkeys theory...
But I will say this about Kelly's initial interest, let alone the Al Merrick take on it Stu posted -
Early on in the piece, Firewire was in talks wirh Kelly. He visited my workspace and we spoke about the many things happening in there.
Amongst the boards on the go was at least one of those in my pics. Straight from the horses-mouth.
JD
I just had a quick chat with Dick van Straalen and he's another monkey. Been doing similar things with concave decks for a while.
So are you thinking Josh that kelly mentioned to me that he was working on a deck with foot wells shaped into the board and then he told me and then I went wow what a great idea?
I am the monkey who hasn't yet typed a word on his typewriter haha, not participating is a form of participation isn't it?
Ha! Now you’re in it metaphorically anyway. I’ve always disliked the reaction people have to that theory. It’s just such a cute human observation to link an action of some low probability to the infinite period of time and say that theoretically it would and must happen. Ie the ordered and recognisable result. I see two patterns that never overlap. The monkey’s behavioural pattern being random and the keyboard pattern which is ordered for a human brain to use. It’s like saying that if volcanos all over the universe keep spewing sheet lava all over themselves that one day one of them will make an identical copy of Rodin’s Gates of Hell. No never. There are some body shapes in the sculpture that the flowing lava might get close to but the straight lines and angles of the gates themselves, the lava will never make.
I think Stu picked up my intent there -
A thousand shapers toiling awsy with planers mighr come up with an identical concept.
That's what I'm saying on that point. It's not an accusation. You clearly have an appreciably innovative mind.
And the other point is simply that Kelly has seen my DCD. But you didn't suggest that Kelly came to you with the idea.
Perhaps it's all just...magical.
Ok got you. I told him I had been making some double concave decks and he said he’s been mucking around with it too. Reverse order that’s all.
The Creature and the Fire wire boards are totally different though.
I have never seen a double concave deck and bottom FireWire yet....
Regardless this is another great board review topic.
Lets congratulate each other for the innovations.
Lets not hijack this cause our own egos are getting in the way of actual advancements here.
You’re totally right but it’s natural for a designer to feel some frustration or resentment if another designer gets the credit for something that they developed earlier. The funny thing is that most of us shapers really don’t fully understand what’s going on. If we did then there would be way more consistency of theory and there isn’t, which makes it all the more special.
Well, I’m keen, I’d like to take the creature for a spin..
Where can I get my hands on one Greg?
Somewhere on the Gold Coast ?
Checked out: http://surfboardagency.com/?s=Creature+
But I couldn’t find it, eyes might be
painted on, am I on the right track ?
They're not doing it and in fact I'm not with them anymore. Parted ways totally happily.
email me at [email protected] and we can even chat by phone.
Hi Greg, is it possible to achieve the same amount of grip with a softer rail rather than a concave?
Not from what I’ve found. The bottom rails with the most grip are low but slightly soft. The the small radius creates the grip but the lack of edge stops the lift being too high early in the turn. The creature that kelly is riding has slightly lower rails than all the boards being used on the pro circuit today. It’s adding to the grip but causing zero hangups. In fact it’s a complex rail that has curves that are very very slight that merge into the tight radius part and then into the rest of the rail. Probably the hardest rail for a finish shaper to copy. And can be neutralised if the glasser and sanders don’t follow exactly what’s there. And yes I’m sure someone has used this tail before for those guys out there that might say that so and so did that exact rail 400 years ago!
Cheers, Greg, that makes sense.
Hi Greg
Just for your own info rob machado has made a fishy board called the seaside. Its got massive double concave too similar to yours, and on Noel Salas' review looks super fun. He has put his concaves all the way thru out the tail. Gonna try one soon
Good on him! Sounds fun. If the planshape stays quite straight at the back with a wide swallow then it will of course have a lovely feeling in the water to keep the concaves going all the way out the back.
Awesome! I can imagine any water that finds its way onto the deck just washes straight through and actually used for acceleration and balance. Love to try it. I’ll never forget the time a shaper once told me the front half of the board is pointless because it’s not in the water so it should be as thin as possible. Laughable! I’ll also never forget Curren referring to the very front of his board and saying “I like to surf the whole board...”
well said. Check any powerful bottom turn photo and the rail will be buried up to about a foot from the nose. And if the nose isn't too thin and the rocker retains a similar line from nose to tail then you sure can use the entire rail. The first bananas I did for kelly had a fairly solid front rail, and he asked why and I said just try to stand a few inches further forward since you don't need to stand over the tail with this much rocker anyway. So now you can bury more board. He came back saying that he will have to start doing some leg exercises from how hard he was pushing.
‘There are known knowns.
There are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns.
That is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns.
There are things we do not know we don't know.’.......................You know?
just get a board with 4 oz on the deck and ride it for a year or 2. or leave it in the sun for a couple of years
a mini goatboat for a big bloke
Here's a recent video from Greg's IG feed, illustrating materials instead of design:
"Plastics genius John F stress testing thermo formed EPS. A tech that’s been tried before but now finally reaching the pro surfer board weight and flex level, due to a thinner stronger multi layered multi functional sheet material. Virtually unsnappable and once fins are out then 95% recyclable."
*95% was later corrected to 100%.
Is this the same material bert /Suns. Is using?
Ol mate seems to have found the twenty piece feed also?
Pyzel also using a double concave deck on John John's boards, including his Snapper boards.
Pyzel quoted from Stab:
Double Concave…On The Deck?
Something that I’ve been doing in my big-wave guns is putting a little double concave in the deck underneath the chest, so basically right where the front foot goes. When we went to test some boards down in Australia last year I made him a board with the double concave in it just for fun. I looked at one his old boards and checked out where the dents were and then worked off of that. I didn’t just put foot spots, I put almost a two-foot-long double concave so that it kind of has a spine in the middle of the deck. It’s almost like a used board. Your boards end up like that, and that’s when they’re good. A brand new board can feel great, but it feels even better when you get your feet stamped into it a little bit.
I watched his first wave on that board, I was in the water with him, and you could just see he clicked with it really good. He loved the feel of it. He said it felt like no matter what he was doing his front foot would go back to center almost automatically. He’s more sensitive to that stuff than most people and he really liked it.
Then I came home and he was like, ‘This is the one. This is what I want to work off of.’ So everything I’ve made for him in this last batch all have that double concave deck. I brought him a batch last night and he was super stoked. I don’t know if that will become more of a feature in boards in the future, but that’s what his whole quiver has right now, which is pretty cool. We’re trying to think of something funny to call it, but I haven’t gotten there yet. Deck dents?
I quite like that.
I reckon my deck concaves either side of my stringer from my butt bones rather than my front foot. I get a bit of posterior pelvic tilt when I sit and the bones are stabbing right into the deck where the depressions are.
I have a mate with a really obvious posterior pelvic tilt and his decks do the same but even worse - every board.
Just got mine, I'm waiting for this week East Swell here on the goldie to give it a try.
Good stuff, mate. Can you give us a ride report once you've had a few sessions on it?
Sure
Greg,
Thanks for all your knowledge you so freely flow out.
Been working with some new materials. Likely nothing youve seen.
I think youll see the flex capabilities. Feels alive. Difficult to explain.
spacesticklab.com is our site. And we've been doing some dual concave top decks too. The rail engages and holds better.
Thanks for sharing all your information wealth.
Cheers! --Scott Norby