Greg Webber: Ribbed For Flex
There's a lot of surfboard shapers in the world but few that create shapes that have never been formed before.
Greg Webber is one of the few. From deep concaves to Banana boards, both of which were surfed at the highest level, to a shed full of designs that remained experimental.
Greg's never one to moan about an experiment that doesn't work. There's always some element to be taken from it; an aspect that can be used to progress his knowledge of surfboard design.
Yesterday Greg revealed his latest design and he chatted to Swellnet about it. Apologies for the redacted copy, hopefully all will be revealed soon.
Swellnet: I've seen a lot of things in surfing yet most of them are derivative of something else. That's the first time I've ever seen that idea.
Greg Webber: That's why I did it.
When did you come up with the idea?
Well, on the Creature model I did a double concave deck and bottom. Have you ever picked up one of those boards?
I have. I've felt the top and bottom concaves.
OK. Well it wasn't the plan but I found that the design was doing something to the torsional flex. Picture the board in profile. Having volume in the rail, then a hollow next to it, then volume around the stringer, another hollow, and more volume on the other rail. It's like a length of corrugated iron. All of that decreases the flex from the nose to the tail, but it allows torsional flex, which is the twisting flex.
Whether that's fucking good or not, I don't know, but it got me thinking about this idea. The second thing was, about four or five years ago, I started thermoforming, which is when the laminating gets sucked down onto the foam under vacuum.
I created a board with rail channels and the laminate sucked onto the channels beautifully. So I thought to myself, "when the day comes and someone's doing really good vacuum bagging, then I'll do it."
I recently got a board done by Lucid Glassing and it turned out beautifully. So that was it, 'I went, all right, now I've got to do it. And so I did.'
After five hours in the shaping bay, Greg reveals his as-yet-unnamed experiment
Hand shape or by cutter?
Hand. It was a c#nt to shape. Absolutely annoying. The first contours, the ones that are perpendicular to the stringer, they're not hard. But as soon as they start curving, then you're using a straight tool to make a curve, and it doesn't want to do it.
You can't make a template tool for every single one of those things, or you're making whatever it is, thirty little templates. So then I have to use the straight tool and stop it at a certain point when it starts to become V-shaped towards the nose.
Okay. Have you looked at that cutter by kinaroad?
No, but I have looked at the robot that Jim Lucas and Sam Tehan at Cronulla have created.
Jim and Sam from Force 9?
Yeah. Fuck me dead, mate. I'm never shaping that thing again if they can design it.
But guess what? I've got a feeling they'll hate the design, but at least if they do the bulk of it with the little drill bit head that they've got, then I can do the rest by hand. It'll be one hour, not the five hours that it was.
I'm just about to chat to them.
Great to hear Jim Lucas' name again. Back to the board, what are you expecting it to do?
Flex a lot at the tail because of those corrugations that are perpindicular [to the stringer]. But as the angle gradually gets more towards parallel then the flex will evenly decrease, so there's no point at which you'll have a really radical transition.
You're not the first to introduce longitudinal flex. Mitchell Rae has been doing it for years, though by different means.
No, this a completely different way of creating flex. In fact, I just patented it this morning.
Okay. You're going all in.
Imagine vacuum bagging that with carbon and it's black and shiny. I'm going to take it down to Marc in het Panhuis at Wollongong. You remember him?
Yes, of course. Mr Flex at the Innovation Centre.
We've chatted and he's done some work with me on other experiments. I'll give him the board to muck around with and test it. And then I'm going to... [Greg asked for this section to be taken off record]
No-one's dealt with flex on the deck. No-one's really experimented with the deck at all, because they're just not thinking about generating flex.
And look, it's not going to be fun to stand on. But for this one, it's eventually going to be tested by Adam Robertson. Fucking Adam Robbo! He's not going to complain. He's beside himself to try experiments.
He could maybe put full deck grip on it? It's not going to last that long but he could still try it.
Maybe there'll be another time where the channels are half the width and it'll still work quite well. Or perhaps we could fill in the gaps a little bit?
Like with EVA plastic..?
Yeah, something that's not going to resist the flex effect but it'll stop your feet from digging right in. Then again, he might go, 'fuck, it actually feels okay, don't change anything.'
But really, that's not a big enough factor, is it? It's important to do the experiment properly.
Yep. If I recall you have a storage unit up the north coast and it's full of fibreglass experiments. The last time I saw them one of the Walters boys was riding them.
Yeah, I've got them. They're all underneath the house now. There's 91 of them.
Do you think this could be the 92nd?
I don't know where it's going to end up. Yeah, I think it'll end up underneath here, but if it works and I can get it right, then guys will ride them. They'll go, 'this thing's mental, it flexes so well.'
The other thing about the flex is I'm going to put FCS 1 plugs in it. Not FCS 2 where the whole finbox would stiffen the back of the board.
But there's more, putting in FCS 1 is only the first bit. The second thing is to only screw them in tightly in the front plug, so the tab at the back has some give and it's not contributing to the stiffness. If you're bridging the gap between the plugs by screwing the fuck out of your fin tabs, then it's blocking the flex a bit.
You've thought of it all.
Oh, too much, yes. You know what my brain's like...
I think it's a great idea and it looks striking too.
Well, it's a bit loose and it looks lovely because of the gradation. Can you imagine if I just did a boring old parallel lines? Two things. First, it wouldn't look as sexy. And secondly, some motherfucker is going to say they I thought of that already.
So I came out with what should've been my third version first just to shut up the people, like [name redacted] thinking that he's come up with a fucking double concave bottom.
Can I include that sentence?
No you can't.
Righty-o. Plan to get it sprayed, like tiger stripes or something?
Unfortunately, it's got to be black carbon. That's what Lucid Glassing do.
Of course.
Yep. So I just dropped it off today. It'll look good in the black carbon. And I really do want to get it into the engineering side because...
[This part of the conversation was also redacted. In fact, right up to when we said farewell, but lordy it was exciting. Stay tuned...]
Comments
tom curren experimented with flex tails in the eighties. I saw one for sale used at a north shore surf shop. always wish i had bought it. pintail semi gun and the last foot of the board was made out of body board foam
and the Maurice Cole board that Tom Curran rode at Haliewa decades ago I think with yellow rails was incredibly flexible and looked so good on the face. and the Banana boards that Herring Road nearly 90s also flexed a lot both of these times steer me into understanding how deck rocker influences Flex.
https://www.worldsurfleague.com/posts/525351/24-vissla-ct-shaper-rankings . not sure if you know how poor your ranking is ? The WSL is the place to be , do you have a model with some sort of silly name that they can promote ?
BLM
You're creativity and passion is inspiring Greg - you are a true futurist (to steal from Jed Smith). I'd love to hear how Robbo goes on it and good luck iterating and refining this remarkable concept. Thanks for the story Stu.
thanks mate it’s always fun mucking around with a different part of the board. fin system next.!
That's incredible! Be a bastard to stand on but I can't wait to hear the results. Wonder how much it'll stiffen up in glassing? (does carbon flex like epoxy?)
and yes, that’s what we are hoping to avoid and so I’ll be talking to the guys at Lucid about some alternate materials, like Kevlar deck and rails in combination with carbon on the bottom.
Yep been wondering about this as well. In foil boards where the whole point is to have as little flex we use carbon because it is the stiffest material around. So seems counterintuitive to use carbon lengthwise anyway. But I’m just an amateur as well - learned a lot from this guy though
?si=pxTa19Y3RY6VOiEaAmazing idea and love the out of the box innovation!
Tuned I stay.
Reminds me of those cartoon fish skeletons that kids draw.
The first thing I thought of.
Sure does. Fish skeleton has a nice ring to it for a board model name.
It sure isn't ribbed for pleasure. Imagine paddling on it?
Ha ha!
He could call it the Flex-Durex.
Good point! You'd need an impact suit just to paddle it.
Can't wait for the erasing of the blacked-out bits. Love Greg's brain and the time he spends on maybes. Love even more when a shaper and surfer build a long-term relationship like Greg and Robbo; like a guitarist/songwriter and his frontman. Anyone got and fave? Plenty of them in Aus..
(I reckon @vj might suggest that if you have to fook with a material to that extent, maybe look for an alternate material. interesting ^ @watt tyler.)
sometimes the words just pop out and I know I have to be more diplomatic otherwise I’ll sound like a whingeing bitch. and yes, it’s been amazing having someone like Adam Robbo to test anything that I want to come up with. That’s basically what you said at the beginning make me anything you like and I will write it.. Kelly is not too bad at riding risky things and jimmy young-whitforde has experimented a fair bit, and Beau Edwards as well, who was the first guy to really push me into double concave deck and bottom.
Wild
May i name it 'Lysergic'
ha! as in acid? or acid deck ?
What about branding it the ‘Rasp’ or ‘File’ or ‘ Surform’ , old school, but great tools from previous skilled generations. AW
a nice legal loophole, 'the slater' - as in the beetle, woodlice, sowbugs, pill bugs.
(also looks like the hard palate in the roof of a dog's mouth..
it would be a torturously-manipulated nomenclature that emerged from that idea).
yes some obscure but real connotations. all equally ridged
The ribs would increase the surface area of the deck a bit. I wonder how much heavier it is glassed (or laminated, if that is the better term)
yes good of you to observe that but so insignificant I wouldn’t worry about it. The dynamic effect of the changes to shape will eclipse any weight increase as a result of the increased surface area.
Guessing that’s Jim Banks copping a spray
clever
Looks really cool.
No floaters Robbo!
yes he will be under strict but polite instruction for the entire first surf to just do smooth carves and drawn out bottom turns and not to hit the lip and not to let go of the board or get into the tube. One key thing I will be asking him to do is gradually decrease the gap between his feet towards the end of the surf. Just to accentuate the bend in the middle of the board. Will feel a little bit unnatural but then I will be able to look at how the board goes so long as we get some good Video which we definitely need to organise.
open invite? I'm near p'land, give us a hoy!
mmmm get a nice foot massage at the same time - a bit like those Masseur sandles...
Interesting in a 9ft mal version - big chance that when you ran up to the front for a noseride you'd bloody trip over!
yes that might be a bit of an issue walking the Board! If it does work and they don’t break easily then some level of infilling between ridges would be the go. Stuff like that already exists for corrugated iron roofing
Maybe a custom full deck grip…flat on top with infill underneath??
Could possibly just fill the grooves with expanding foam after they've been glassed, then sand smooth.
Cant help but think following you along your board creations on youtube would make great viewing. From concept to shaping, glassing and riding with feedback and refinements would provide a unique insight.
thanks dave. Something I will have to get on to and I did have a little bit of shaping of the corrugations and also some footage of rooster holding the board in the sunlight at a few different angles which I might post again on Instagram.
Nope, don’t think so….but all the best with it.
Not very optimistic
:) :D
thank you for your insight
not sure where my reply is going
well done greg flex is everything ! in my humble opinion id fuck off the carbon and do it in flax with a 3/4 flax patch vaccume bagged ,, much more flex than carbon that stuff kills off the flex ..and isnt that the point ?? cheers gary
+1 right on Gary! Rigid boards are the worst. I have flax boards from Dave Porter and others going way back, some corked skinned and the combo of flax and the damping effect of cork are amazing. Plus they feel unbelievable under your feet sealed or unsealed
Also have timber and cork eps cored alais (and others) - geez those those things are magic and a whole other level of flex - you can tweak the bottom foil while surfing them to your benefit (and detriment)
Keep it up Gary - never had the pleasure of owning one your boards but have always admired them from afar. Intergalactic may be the best description if that makes sense to you. I’m sure it would
Greg also mentioned Kevlar for the deck
hi gary yes already looking at Kevlar deck and rails but I still want to stop the Flex at a certain point and might just do unis on the bottom in carbon with a little bit of E4 ounce over the top.
hi Gary sorry mate I thought I’d replied. Yes flex is still not fully understood or utilised in construction. my reason for saying this is that I haven’t seen anyone mention one element that I realised or should I say recognised nearly 30 years ago actually more than 30 years ago. I guess what I’m trying to do is use the form more than the materials but at the same time if you want one part of the Board to allow a chunk of flex you might need another part of the board to limit the total amount of flex, that is why I will probably still use carbon in someway on the bottom. But I do not want to make the box section of the rails too stiff and strong or else it will totally limit the degree to which the deck can achieve more flex in the whole board.
Agree...Stiff and Bordering on Brittle - and a Big $ Saving using Flax .
reminds me of a deck pad with cuts in it, so as to allow more flex and give you a nicer deck into rails cheers
Sika Flex!
thanks ruckus ,like minded cosmic forces at play ,,, for greg my only other comment would be do it in set fins ,,lets the board flex naturally .. cheers guys good luck !!!
You know it!
We tend to look at fins and surfboards as seperate items even more so with modern manufacturing processes - surfboard, fin box, fin… all for convenience, in convenience we lose nuance
Would be interesting to look into some of sort of fused / glass in fins that exhibit some sort of interconnected torsional interplay with the blank / board flex
No idea how to do this
Good luck all - staying tuned as with all of Greg’s experiments
unfortunately, Stuart didn’t include the entire intro on my post where I talk about using FCS1 plugs and i also suggested not even screwing in tightly the rear tab to allow the Fins to not create a rigid section throughout their base. So fixed Fins would stiffen that zone where the base meets the board
That bit's in there G-dub, under '92nd':
"The other thing about the flex is I'm going to put FCS 1 plugs in it. Not FCS 2 where the whole finbox would stiffen the back of the board.
But there's more, putting in FCS 1 is only the first bit. The second thing is to only screw them in tightly in the front plug, so the tab at the back has some give and it's not contributing to the stiffness. If you're bridging the gap between the plugs by screwing the fuck out of your fin tabs, then it's blocking the flex a bit."
Okay, thanks. I’ll have another look for that.
Just had me thinking off on a tangent about the fins.
Would possibly be worth looking at the fish world, and which fish shape has a large amount of torsional flex for speed, and sussing out it's fin shapes.
Some fish have straight up fins, some have little double fins etc..
My first thought was something akin to a Marlin's serrated dorsal fin structure, in that it has it's one high point for stability, but many junctures raked along its serrated length for i'm guessing flexibility through speed and torque. Would be a prick to put fin plugs in for though! haha,
Farked if i know, just got me thinking outside the box which is what i love about this article.
Cheers GW and all the best with the experimentation.
Look forward to hearing any further developments.
Every answer is in nature SR :)
I think you would be a fan of Zach Bush - follow him on insta if you have it.
Your mind will be blown just with his observations / conversations of the everyday and nature. The word profound is an understatement.
Cosmic potentially which ol’ mate Gary understands all too well
Gary - where are you living these days? Have a few spare rolls of cork if you would like them to skin a few boards
Ripper. Will do.
Thanks @ruckus!
yes nature can be the inspiration and to some degree certain shapes can actually be copied. But I find no great advantage in being deeply esoteric and spiritual about it because these are organisms that still have an internal structure akin to what mammals have in terms of a central spine and ribs albeit with different materials, and due to the demands of a living organism, i.e. eating and reproducing we can’t draw an identical parallel between the fin or surfboard and anything that we see in the ocean. The same applies for birds, there are parallels in shape and there are identical dynamics in terms of hydrodynamics and aerodynamics but that doesn’t mean we can just copy something and think it will apply to our slightly different requirements. I think most designers that go on a lot about nature and the ocean are just trying to appear to be cool and beautiful and empathetic so that the hippie/yoga chicks that they like might become more accessible.
Cheers Greg.
And yeah, i'm definitely trying to be cool! haha. Point taken. Was just thinking a little outside the box. I still think there's something in the overall bulk of a fish shape like a shark or Marlin that has that torque in the body and the fin association. Anyway loving reading all the above comments and following this thread. Great stuff.
Btw, those boards you made Herro in the 90s were mental.
So sick watching that old footage of how they fit in the pocket.
Keep up the inspirational work mate.
yes that’s what I look at in the ocean are the fins that move the creature along. not too much the stabilising dorsal fins. The only thing to not be distracted by are requirements based on the fact that it is a living organism with internal organs and a spine that flexes and has all these other objectives like eating and reproducing. however the tail fin of tuna and most sharks do exhibit the kind of flex that seems to be ideal. However these tail fins are moved with muscles that can fully exploit very large fins while again at the moment we use pretty tiny fins compared to what those things are. Although I have made very raked flexing fins that were 18 inches in overall length and oddly enough there were some good qualities despite some weird ones.
ahh ok missed this post.
Check that. Makes alot of sense.
Until boards can think and eat for themselves i guess we're confined to certain parameters. Cheers!
How cool is Greg’s creativity and guts to get it out there. Very curious to see how it goes. After he gets it dialled I’m imagining our (or more correctly his) future surfboards will have laminated three layer foam blanks to provide optimal flex and performance combo e.g. standard blank shaped something like Greg’s above, lightweight compressible foam in the deck channels to smooth deck, and a firm thin layer to stop depressions so it will appear like a normal HPSB. Once I thrived on surfboards 2 3/16” thick, then as I got older and fatter my surfboards did the same. I recon the flex magic disappears at above 2 5/8” thick and even though 2 3/4” is great for paddling that magic flex is hard to find. I’m frothing at the thought of a thicker performance SB that’s easy for an old bloke to paddle and has the flex and performance we want.
thanks Morgan and yes I certainly found the same thing as I got older and fatter and lazier that the chunky boards had little flex, but I did then go to EPS and longer, with single 6 ounce deck and bottom with innegra or straight glass strips deck and bottom. And once they get to 8 foot and 3 inches, then they start flexing again.
Thanks Greg. Good luck
no worries, and I liked your idea of separating the deck layers. That gives me something more to think about.
Tom Wegener was all over it with his Flopsy model :)
woops
I pity the glasser and sander...........
It's vacuum bagged, so no glassing per se, and I think Greg is doing the sanding.
Filler coat will be interesting maybe make up a paste ?
ha! please no!
Textured deck..that is a filler / finish coat would work.. reduce weight and don't have to sand..
Double concaves have been around for a long time... it's not a recent innovation.. concept was around when channels were developing.
it’s vacuum bagged so no need for a texture deck. Although that was a good suggestion. And whatever you are saying with the double concave it’s not a matter of who did it first, unless that person perfected it first. I shaped some things before anyone else and they were pieces of shit so it’s all a matter of whether it is perfected before anyone else. and my info and attitude to doubles goes back to Bob mcTavish who did the first full length nose to double concave and so I know what he thinks of my boards since we have talked more than once about the subject, and it wasn’t just a generalised discussion, it involved precisely the way I do my double concaves, and why Bob didn’t continue with them, so I think it comes down to who perfects it first. Followed by who popularises the design. for example in the intro to the 1971 documentary on the Smirnoff pro at sunset (a surfing Odyssey) there is a guy riding a sub 6 foot single fin with a rolled deck and a bit of a nose flip and the thing is five times more responsive and faster than just about all the boards in the movie. No idea who made it but it looked like a fairly modern Al Merrick. imagine being 20 to 30 years ahead and nobody even realised how good the board was.
I guess what you're implying is that you perfected the double concaves concept... your style of double concaves is your approach to that design .. and it works well for your requirements..
I would suggest that they were in play in the early 70s and their development was in various forms.. by several shapers .. one example is channels which are an extreme form.. boards were developed outside of the commercialy known designs by shapers to accommodate the needs of surfers in various waves..
From one shaper to another.. every board has a story..
Any updates on the wave pool(s) Greg?
Got a full size one up and running yet?
something in Europe will announce in the next 2 to 3 months
Wow, mid May at the latest, can't wait.
Announce plans to build or open in mid-May?
WoW....The Investors will be Happy .
Has there been a lot of investment from investors Udo? Do you think the potential ROI will be high
I think Udo is being a bit facetious in that GW was on here a decade or so ago fielding investors with general plans to open a pool in the near future.
In all seriousness, despite being a decade after said pool(s) were supposedly set to take the world by storm, I truly hope it’s the good/great pool he’s been promising for all these years. Good on him for persistence and I’ve enjoyed Urbnsurf the few times I’ve been there, if they’re better than that I’ll use them
it will just be the announcement that the funding to build a 200m single channel linear prototype was successful. Then a one in 10 scale model will be constructed inside a factory to hone the relationships between the hull and the depth of the channel and the shape of the gradient. The earliest we will hear is the middle of next month and at the latest two months after that.
That sounds like the announcement...but seriously congratulations, I hope the 1:10 prototype works and the thing is finally built
thanks mate and yes the lovely thing about the one in 10 is that it is in itself the ultimate tank test that you really cannot do in a test basin at a university. So I’ve specified one requirement that the gradient structure allows for fast alterations according to templates that I will design for them to fabricate. The speed, draft, and trim angle will all be adjustable while the carriage is moving so that we can assess the customising aspect. In other words you don’t just set it on one set of parameters and do one run, and then stop the carriage reposition the hull and do another run. This is what was always missing from the university testing that we did because the cost is much much higher. Most top level test basins that do research for military vessels, (eg AMC in tassie) cost about $25,000 a day. Anyway so these guys will build a model inside a factory of their own and I will be flown over there to fuck around with it.
Funding was Succesful to build this Prototype.....How does this Funding Work ?
Serious Amount of $ needed for this Prototype.
V Reef : Anything Happening here ?
Greg WebberFriday, 7 Jun 2019 at 11:43am
We have a signed contract to build the Vwall prototype. That’s why I’ve gone public on this.
Greg WebberFriday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:19pm
I have a signed contract to build one for testing in Perth.
yep as sometime happens the verbal assurances are part of the risk. The main issue with getting an expensive prototype built is that you have two distinct options in terms of funding. A successful developer or finance group with their own capacity to build will then want to screw you down to the lowest percentage, “yes you’ve got a great idea but you don’t have any money and so that’s just the way it is” and over time with back to back share Issues, to bring in more funding for further development on the project, dilution takes place each time, whittling the share value of the original investors down to single digit percentages of the original value. One Australia? Australian owned wave pool company had at last count over 130 ‘changes to company structure’, which is the wording that is applied to a range of things but nearly always it is a share issue. The second option are mid-level developers and low level finance groups sometimes in a joint-venture in the hope of getting a huge win and elevating their standing in the market. These are the people that do talk it up more than they should, but they know that they don’t have the credibility of the larger firms. However, this group is far more generous with any licensing deal or joint-venture proposal. So the ideas for patent holding company would get a much larger proportion in the deal but the likelihood of it happening is less. The Bus majority of offer to build either the wave pool prototype or the V Wall prototype involved these two types. There is a third and much less common option which is to build the prototype for the rights to then build more of them as against the licensing and commercialisation agreement.
You mentioned you had someone from Wavegarden approach you and say that you have best Technology and i want to Work with You. . .
Thats Fantastic coming from the World Leaders in Artificial Waves.
yes another less common opportunity. The WA state government set a requirement for the mining companies in Kalgoorlie to put in about $50 million into community projects. The guy from wave garden prepared an exhaustive feasibility study over an eight month period and presented it to the mining companies involved and they were all excited and keen. in that assessment of the other technologies liquid time came out on top according to his criteria. it is a dollar for dollar deal between the government department and industry and it is on their desk and no movement so far. It’s not like you can hassle the state government and pressure them. Anyway, at least the mining companies involved preferred a wave pool over any other kind of community project. The mining companies need 100 high-level engineers in that town full time, and sadly the FIFO effect creates family issues, and of course it’s hard to get entire families to stay together and live there in the desert. hence the wave pool idea. Cafes for mum and the kids in the shore beak while dad gets barrelled. and early and late surfs of course.
Upstairs Earl
.................love it !
@Stunet Ah Nice! I was thinkin old school just remembering sanding channels.
Best not to remember to stay sane.
thanks greg , the uni will work ,just never been a fan of the small round boxes just for pure strength ..maybe on a thruster but put two bigs fins in there and they go in the first decent bottom turn , best of luck ,, the surf industry needs the change .. cheers gary
totally agree, but I will be chatting to them about some side cuts that can be filled with resin and milled glass fibre. that’s what I have done a few times just by hand with a thin circular 5 inch diamond blade for angle grinder. just rotating it backwards and forwards kinda not super neat but just to make some structural side flanges at 90° to the forces so that the single cup can push against. An inch and a half either side of the plug and two or three of them.
not sure if I can attach this pic Gary, but this is what I have been experimenting with which is super simple but I love the fact that these support flanges are at 90° to the fin which means they are in the same exact plane as the forces which are obviously side on to a high degree and twisting to a slightly lesser degree.
looks like I don’t know how to attach a photo. One guy has been putting on videos so there must be a method. I’ll have to ask Stu.
Hey G Mc. A good friend of mine ordered a board from you last year and it goes so insane. Her surfing went from good to a whole new level, super stylish lines and carves. Got some footage of it if you want it whatsapped to you at any time to see how it looks.
Cheers.
Magic that would be great. If you can email, I’ll send you my phone number for WhatsApp.
gw@webbersurfboards.com
Apologies Greg, that post was for Gary. Should have been clearer. My bad.
Happy to send it through though anyway with her permission.
gday southernraw please email to gmconcepts333@gmail.com .love to see it cheers gary
Too easy Gary. I'll get in touch with her and send it through soon.
It's a beautiful creation.
Cheers mate.
Sounds like the old speeedfins system might have been what you're after Greg. Although the footprint for the boxes did have a bit of length.
yes those old Speedfin plugs would’ve been ideal. Although to be annoying, I do have another project that I’ll be releasing soon to do with a new fin system that somehow manages to induce flex somewhere between the fin and the surfboard. Of course my patenting of that will annoy some of Swellnet ‘s weirdly spiritually “nobody owns any idea because it’s come from the universe” ideological followers. Kelly tested the first prototypes a bit over two years ago. They had one fundamental flaw that was definitely fixable but when my mind drifted off into the universe of creativity, ha ha ha ha, I came up with a much simpler solution.
Here you go Tiger, Greg, Gary and Ruckus.
Bert Burger Sunova Surfboards has been at the forefront of 'flexploration' for decades and he uses FCS single plugs in combination with high density foam inserts.
He also explains how he experimented with futures fin boxes and realised they stiffen the tail.
So that's now 2 negatives for Futures fin boxes, the other is, not having the cant in the side boxes (a cant of an idea if you make your own fins).
Ha nice one Philo! Old Burt Bender Burger :) Have heard a few funny stories of ol’ Burt.
Personally surfed plenty of JD shapes which implemented the same method. Josh truly was in a league of his own and an ultimate master craftsman.
Hard to sum up his boards, it’s like he had cooked up some secret recipe, they were extremely lively like nothing I have surfed before
Surfed a very early FireWire prototype of his, geez that board was special and was likely as lively as the day it was made, only 15 years on.
There is a wave I woulda loved to surf that board on, almost unmakeable on any other board, JDs setup would have done it. One can only dream
Hope you’re going well out there in the ether JD it’s been a while
classic comment mate, especially that end bit about a cant of an idea. yes, Bert has been into all sorts of structures for decades and he and I had a little back and forth about structure of materials versus shape. And this crinkle deck is back to front way of me highlighting one factor that I I have never heard mentioned in relation to flex of the whole board. The reason being is that there is a reason that seems to be the factor but it is a merely byproduct of the real element that’s involved with whole board flex.
made a board with divinycell h 200 to h120 with multi stringer carbon and found that the big questions becomes the taste versus the wave factor. Hence the moment the wife says why do need another board again? hahaha
Sounds heavy!
probably not a lot of flex, but I bet the thing was impregnable
Yeww get it greg keen to see how it turns out
same here, sure hope the thing doesn’t snap too quickly
Just saw a guy riding a GW with the concaved deck and deep double in the bottom. Quite a coincidence .. never seen one before
ha ha funny timing and I’m guessing you mean double concave deck? If so that’s the creature model. The first one I did for Kelly he almost completed probably the best carve 360 anyone has ever attempted that was at Haleiwa a few years ago though.
Pretty cool, I reckon it'll vibrate under foot.
shit that would be interesting! When I get it I’ll be doing a post and it will have something to do with sound and harmonics. It’s something that you can use to have a gut feel idea of how the board will flex in the water.
Isnt that going to knock a lot of foam out of it looks like 15% or more and i thought it was torsion not flex you wanted . Doesnt flex absorb energy and torsion load energy ??
Think of skis, Shaun. They're a great study in flex and loading of energy. HP skis are geberally very stiff torsionally, and extremely stiff longitudinally underfoot. The profile of the core (foil in surfboard terms) determines the flex distribution.
The stronger and heavier a skier is, the stiffer the flex, but it's the storing then releasing of potential energy (via longitudinal flex) that drives him out of a turn.
It'll be interesting to see Greg playing with the flex distribution. All the best!
yes I guess that is the prime design element for snow skis and water skis. Phenomenal level of grip that they achieve with the water skis. The sheets of water that they throw out and upwards are amazing.
yes indeed, but I designed the board with an extra 2 1/2 L so that I would come back to Adam Robbo‘s usual 33 L. as for the differences in the type of flex I can’t say that I can distinguish between the longitudinal flex and the torsional flex even though I’ve tried to imagine an advantage in the torsional flex. I think the main thing is that if you decrease the longitudinal flex significantly with double concaves deck and bottom it will not chatter as easily because you will be suppressing the nose to tail longitudinal flex while not really limiting the torsional flex. It would require watching a fair bit of video of two boards almost identical except for the double deck and bottom. Of course they will feel the water differently but I would just be looking at the way they load up under a hard turn and then release out of the turn to see if the flex was different between them.
the problem with high density foam is your creating a weak point infront of your fins .ive done high density foam carbon strips block inserts etc you name it ive tested it .. the best yet has been 4oz cloth under the boxes and 2 layers of either flax or volan cloth over the top ,,this allows maximum flex for maximum stength..no weak points ..keeps it simple and your sander will love you ...
Found the second part of Berts fin box discussion.
In this one he explains bamboo composite impact plates and the added strength they give to the fin base.
Only 321 views in 7 years,
The whole Sunova tech video series is a must watch for anyone interested in surfboard durability.
I wonder if Bert ever tried Gregs idea of backing off the rear grub screw to allow up and down flex play.
Thats the End of any Flex around the Fin Cluster doing it that Way.
i’ll have to watch Bert‘s video and come back to you guys who are discussing the fin box stiffness issue. and although it’s not absolutely ideal at least there is a gap between the fin boxes and so there would be still some flex in these gaps and then really how much flex would happen in the last 12 to 15 inches of theboard anyway? Of course ideally there is no resistance but the most important flex will be between the feet.
yes, after watching Bert‘s video I don’t think the priority was retaining or increasing flex in the tail of the board but much more so to add incredible strength to the entire installation. Definitely some lovely work involved.
Note the horizontal 12mm long slot in the rear tab of the plastic fin.
What if that slot was vertical instead, say a 10mm slot, this would allow more up and down flex play.
yes for sure that well defined slot would limit any up-and-down movement and we only need half a millimetre to 1 mm. I guess ideally there is no slot for the grubs screw to bed into and then just a very slight pressure would be useful to stop the side to side flex but not completely limit the flex of the board.
It’s probably pretty stupid for me to wade into this fin flex & fin plug discussion / conversation… half the time I go finless :) Interesting none the less
When not finless it’s either poweblades (single), cutaway twin, quad or single with side bites bonzer or otherwise. Occasionally a nubster or trailer on a twin rarely but very rarely a thruster
I have always rated cutaway twins - I have a set of Ellis Ericsons and the ‘twang’ on them is superb. The Need Essentials cutaways twins & keels are pretty good too but seem a little more stiff & rigid. Still a great fin nonetheless
Following on from Philos comment how about;
Standard plugs of choice? with a slightly oversized grub screw with inbuilt spring plunger / ball on the fin connection side. This works in conjunction with small basin / dimple on the fin tab where these two items meet. Combine this with an slightly softer composite material on surrounding fin box or fin tab to allow additional torsional movement
I imagine these to be lively like no other fin and as smooth as butter. Rather than fighting against water flow these fins would move with it to a degree
Fins that in essence are alive! And are responsive & reactive to the pressures placed on them
Hope this all makes sense maybe a sketch is needed
Sorry if this is the speedfin design or premise - I’ve never heard or seen of them before
There was a Leash Cord for Fins avail on Ebay a while ago which would work ok if you were to Slot the Tab.
Imagery of Greg's fin flex idea:
Wave pools around 48 mins
?si=oKfbHuBSWhdRIHwYHi Greg. Anyone working outside the box is inspiring. You are probably familiar with all the different cloth options. For example, unidirectional carbon will flex in one direction and stiff in the opposite direction - could work well with what you are aiming for on this deck. On regular boards would be interesting to combine different cloth weaves across the deck vs rails etc.
Here is another example of an outside the box thinker, George Gall.
https://forum.swaylocks.com/t/shapers-hot-seat-george-gall/37752/8
If I could design the future of surfing we would have a surfer owned wavepool solely dedicated to surfboard design testing and experimenting.
Imagine if all surfers who are interested in surfboard design got to ride and test all of Gregs and Georges experimental boards on programable waves.
Surfboard design would go to a whole new level.
Imagine the ideas which would come from collaborative experimentation as opposed to the current competitive market driven reality.
fcs1 ftw
fcs1 peanuts ftmfw
Jokes aside, great conversation above everyone, you are a creative lot!
anyone who likes different ideas in surfboards should love this from Greg .......and love how good Robbo surfs .....
&t=7s&ab_channel=GregWebber