Bottom Contours Part 2

Stu Nettle picture
Stu Nettle (stunet)
Design Outline

By Cory Russell

In the last instalment of Boarding School we discussed the various types of vee bottom designs. Over time the importance of vee has changed, from being a magic ingredient at the birth of the Shortboard Revolution to one that's only used in retro designs, as it is today.

The reason for the shift is that in the late-80s and early-90s surfers began to demand more out of their equipment, which in turn forced shapers had to evolve their knowledge of design. Rocker had begun to increase on the back of Kelly Slater and the Momentum generation who were taking surfing above the lip and doing controlled sliding turns. The boards they were riding had become highly refined and tuned. Concaves were introduced to provide lift as well as giving the surfer more control.

This was a tough time in surfboard design and many experts identified it as the first time in the history of surfing that the average surfer couldn't ride the same equipment as the pros. Over time, the dimensions would change but the importance of concave in the modern performance surfboard would remain.

The following instalment will decipher concaves and channels.

Concave

The purpose of concave in a surfboard is to contain the flowing water and its energy as it passes along the bottom. The increased energy created by a concave pushes the board up, increasing lift and decreasing drag. When concaves became standard on pro equipment, around 1992 and 1993, surfing took a turbocharged leap into the future.

There are two types of concave used on surfboards: single concave and double concave. Various combinations as well as depths can be applied to a surfboard to achieve the desired outcome.  

Single Concave

Single concave is best described as a single curve from rail to rail. The deepest part of the curve is along the stringer or centre of the surfboard – similar to a shallow ‘U’ shape. The depth of single concave can vary but it is usually deeper than double concave. As such, a single concave contains more water or energy which will create more lift. A single concave provides the board with a greater difference between the rail rocker and centre rocker. Longitudinally, the board is straighter through the centre than it is on the rails.

It is this difference that allows the rail to pierce the wave face rapidly as well as enable more water to pass under the board when pressure is applied to the rails. A board with a single concave performs best in quality waves and/or surfing made up of committed turns.

Single concave viewed in profile

Double Concave

Double concave is a set of curves from each rail to the stringer or centre of the board. The deepest part of the curves is between the rails and the stringer – similar to a ‘W’ shape. The depth of a double concave can also vary but it is usually shallower than a single concave. The difference between the rail rocker and centre rocker is reduced which enables the board to have more of a neutral feel.

A board with double concave is more versatile and forgiving as well as performs in a wide range of conditions.

Double concave viewed in profile

Twin Vee Concave

Twin vee concave first got my attention in the early nineties after I saw a design article featuring Mitchell Rae of Outer Island surfboards. Mitchell told me he had been experimenting with deep concaves since the late-60s and the twin vee concave was a progression of that.

The twin vee concave places a double concave from nose to tail in a vee bottom board. It balances the lift created by concave with the smooth rail to rail surfing a vee bottom provides. The result is a really efficient, versatile bottom contour. The original design had around two inches of flat panel leading into the rail, all the way around the board.

Many shapers have used this design in current models but allow the double concaves to go all the way to the rail.  

Channels

Channels have an interesting history as described in a previous Swellnet article and the theory behind them is equally thought provoking. Channels are wedge shaped grooves sanded into the last 24 inches of the tail, usually 5-10 millimetres deep and varying widths to suit the board’s tail width (the length and depth can also be altered to suit the board). The number of channels can vary between two and ten depending on the surfer or desired outcome.  

Channels are designed to assist the direction of water flow from nose to tail and generate speed down the line as well as provide drive through turns. By adding channels to the bottom of a surfboard you are increasing the wetted surface area which provides extra lift as well as creating small corridors of increased rocker which provides greater release for the water passing along the bottom of the board. Also, the vertical walls created by the channels provide a level of resistance that can allow for smaller fins to be used.

Six channel swallow tail as shaped by Dale Wilson at Byrning Spears

When done properly channel bottoms are a work of art. A few years ago I was working with Jamie Byrne (son of the late Al Byrne) and I would ask him for any insights or tips he had been taught by his father, who was one of the biggest exponents of channel bottoms. Jamie told me his dad would simply look down the rocker of the board, identify the sweet spot and get to work!

In recent times, the manufacturers of some shaping machines have made it possible to cut channels into a pre-shape. Previously this wasn't possible and the big surfboard companies did everything they could not to do channel bottoms. It will be interesting to see if the number of channel bottom boards will increase when the technology becomes available in the future.

Torus Channel

In 2010, Gary McNeill of Gary McNeill Concepts had an idea for a new bottom contour on the boards he was making for Dave ‘Rasta’ Rastovich.  The idea was to apply a wide channel that almost ran the length of the board within a concave.

The torus channel provides the surfer with another level of engagement under their front foot. In the past most of the control elements of a surfboard were centred on the tail with its sharp edges and fins, however this bottom contour allows a similar feeling under your front foot as well. The channel engages in a way that can make the board hold in at high speeds such as barrel riding or deep turns when other boards would blow out.

By having the edge go right up to the shoulders in the board it also means it needs less fin area to keep the board holding in. Less fin area equals less drag and less drag equals more speed.

I recently contacted Gary about this design and he told me he's in the process of taking the design even further, adding deep concave panels either side of the channel. Gary assured me the early feedback has been great.

The torus channel, a product of Gary McNeill's creative mind

Rail Channels

About 18 months ago, a guy brought a board in to me that he'd been riding. The board had been shaped by Mark Rabbidge. It was a traditional looking fish with a more modern rocker, yet it was only when he handed it to me that I discovered it had rail channels. The rail channels are parallel to the stringer, they start about twelve inches from the nose and run all the way to the fins.

Recently I had the opportunity to ask Mark about his rail channels and he couldn't contain his excitement. Mark told me he's been shaping them for years and couldn't believe how much faster the board was when it was laid on rail.

Not long after I saw Mark’s rail channel design I noticed the boards George Greenough had made for Rasta to take to Fiji - coined the 'edge boards'. Since then there's been an abundance of shapers with similar designs. If applied correctly the rail channel theory has plenty of merit. The channel reduces the rail’s buoyancy and also provides a more direct path for the water to follow when the board is on rail.

A traditional fish with rail channels as shaped by Mark Rabbidge

Vent

It was 1989 when Phil Myers came up with a design called the vent system, essentially a deep double concave with forward vee and channel. I recently contacted Phil about the vent system and he told me this was one of numerous designs he'd created but many of the other designs were difficult to manufacture. A relentless innovator, Phil also created the hydro channel which is the basis for Tommy Peterson's acclaimed Fireball.

The vent system proved itself under the feet of a young Danny Wills and 1988 world champion Barton Lynch. Phil explained the design was different to other boards on the market at the time and he received some backlash from other shapers. However, the boards were fast, they performed on rail, and were suitable for all levels of surfing in all conditions.

I asked Phil if he still has people ordering them? "Yes," said Phil. "The design has a lot of merit, especially in good strong waves such as reef or point breaks." 

"The feedback I get is that the bigger it is, the better the board goes!"

Prodigious channel shaper Phil Myers and his vent system

Jet

The eternally creative Erle Pederson came up with the jet bottom design in the mid-70s. Originally called the ‘Kewarra Jet Bottom’, it was a series of curved channels that would crisscross and exit the sides as well as the end of the tail. The idea was to "bust all forms of water tension" and were theoretically similar to rapids in a river. They also increase the amount of air on the bottom of the board.

This design was first applied to vee bottom boards and would provide the lift a vee bottom does not possess. Similar hydrodynamic principles are applied in boats designed for speed.

I shaped my first version of a jet bottom a few months ago and it was a mighty challenge. I marked it out a few times but once that was complete it was a lot easier than I thought to shape.

Erle is still creating boards under the Surf 1770 brand and pushing the boundaries with his unique design theories.

Erle Pedersen and the intricate concentric channels of his jet bottom

                                                                                                            *****

When I design a board I don't focus on the specific amount of vee or concave it will have, but prefer to concentrate on the rail rocker and how it will combine/complement the centre rocker of the board. To simply focus on the amount of vee or concave in a board alienates the other elements of design and can create a design with big limitations.

The reason for this is the depth of vee or concave reaches a certain point of influence on a board before experiencing a form of ‘neutral velocity’. After that any additional vee or concave will have a minimal effect on the design. This neutral velocity varies for each board depending on its construction, weight, and the surfer riding it. The reality is that concave can only generate so much lift and vee can only reduce it to a maximum amount before it is neutralised.

In my experience, boards with extreme vee or concave are a solution for a design flaw in the rocker. The radical increase/decrease in rail rocker will momentarily hide a faulty design but the problem will remain.  

By now you should be either well informed or overwhelmed about the bottom contours of a surfboard and how they work.

I always encourage people to try different types of boards and see what works for them.  The most important thing you can do is to start a conversation with a shaper and learn how he applies these principles to your surfing.

In the next instalment we will discuss volume.

Cory Russell
Shaper
Cory Surfboards / Stretch Boards Australia

Wanna read past articles of the Boarding School?
Outline
Rocker
Foil
Bottom Curves Part 1

Comments

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley Friday, 17 Mar 2017 at 9:07pm

That Torus channel thingie, old mate had an Alan Oke single fin from back in the day like that, narrower but nose to tail.

PCS PeterPan's picture
PCS PeterPan's picture
PCS PeterPan Saturday, 18 Mar 2017 at 12:01am

Interesting to see more experiments in board design going down.
Those extreme takes ,ie:jet bottoms must be fun to glass and sand eh ?
Reckon I'll stick to my basic singles and slight doubles though . . . water doesn't like getting too many questions asked of it IMO.
Surfed in Fiji late 2016 with some retired pros and up and coming juniors . Checked out their boards during the trip , all pretty basic single concaves and flattish battoms with slight v doubles in their step up boards. Totally inspiring surfing by these folk on basic equipment.
Anyway , whatever flicks yer switch !

cory's picture
cory's picture
cory Saturday, 18 Mar 2017 at 11:32am

Hi Guy and PCS,
Just so you know... Gary McNeil is one of the nicest guys in the industry and does not claim to be the first person to have a single channel running through the board. I would love to see a pic of the old Alan Oke board if you had one? The time in surfboards was super creative!

I understand what you are saying about subtlety in design. Shapers love to test theory, push boundaries and inspire surfers to travel on different parts of waves. Often they take what they learn in the extreme and apply it in a subtle way. Cheers

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley Saturday, 18 Mar 2017 at 2:11pm

Hi Cory, no offence was intended just pointed out what old mate had. Its all heritage today -yesterday. I ask, old mate might come good with a pic.

cory's picture
cory's picture
cory Saturday, 18 Mar 2017 at 2:43pm

Hey Guy,
No offense taken... I will take any opportunity to tell people what a bunch of legends we have shaping boards in Australia. :)

lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy Saturday, 18 Mar 2017 at 11:45am

The number of channel bottoms is increasing already from what I can see.
Thanks for the articles Cory.

cory's picture
cory's picture
cory Saturday, 18 Mar 2017 at 2:46pm

They are very popular at the moment. The biggest disappointing thing for me is both fin companies refuse to develop their products so they could be used easier in channels. Cheers for the support

Clam's picture
Clam's picture
Clam Saturday, 18 Mar 2017 at 4:54pm

That's a shame about fin boxes . It must cause compromise of the design making things fit different brand fin systems ?

cory's picture
cory's picture
cory Sunday, 19 Mar 2017 at 8:29am

It's true... hopefully they figure it out and support the shaper/glassers.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017 at 10:16am

Cory do you have ideas in mind for the diff type of plugs for Channel bottoms ?

cory's picture
cory's picture
cory Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017 at 11:05am

Hey Udo,
The major fin/fin box companies only need to make small changes to their existing plugs. The way I install FCSII is reverse the bearing and locking device to give the cutter extra depth and maintain the bearing contact with the jig. I chok the jig parallel to the channel and route it. This means I use 3 degree plugs for the sides and zero degree for rear quad plugs. The problem with this is FCS only make zero degree plugs with the click in device on one side so customers have to screw the fin in on one rear quad fin. If FCS manufactured a zero degree plug with the locking device on the other side it would resolve this.
As for futures... it's a lot harder. I modify the boxes so the top of the box matches the angle of the channel. Installation is a little tricky to as you have to use there old method and do it in two parts. I shown the Futures guys my plug last Easter but heard nothing from them. Small changes could make a big difference to manufacturers.

linez's picture
linez's picture
linez Saturday, 18 Mar 2017 at 5:17pm

Love these articles, thanks Cory. You mention both single and double concaves separately, but most boards I have had for a long time now have combined both. A single with double in the back 1/2 or 1/3rd. Best of both worlds?

cory's picture
cory's picture
cory Sunday, 19 Mar 2017 at 8:32am

The short answer is yes. The long answer is I try to concentrate on centre rocker and rail rocker complimenting each other and being functional. I also prefer the way a double concave blends into vee.

linez's picture
linez's picture
linez Sunday, 19 Mar 2017 at 11:24am

Ok thanks

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Monday, 20 Mar 2017 at 12:06pm

In the comments of the last article, 'Spuddups' was talking about bottom curves being overstated. I was almost gonna comment then but figured I'd wait till this instalment - i.e concaves - went up.

A few years ago I had the oppportunity to ride two boards that were identical except one was a flat bottom and one had a single to double concave. The concave was only subtle, a few mm at deepest point running into two shallow concaves. Barely noticeable. In all other respects the boards were the same so any difference in performace had to be, or was most likely to be, due to the bottom curves.

The board with concave(s) had noticeably more lift and drive. It wasn't a stringent test, placebo effect was possible, but I've ridden enough board to know the feeling.

I'm always facinated by how much effect a shallow concave can have; just a millimetre or so makes a massive change in my eyes.

Terminal's picture
Terminal's picture
Terminal Sunday, 26 Mar 2017 at 6:07pm

That was a great opportunity (would love to do that) and you raise a really important point about controls when comparing a board designs under natural conditions, where every wave is different and placebo effect can also creep in. I live in academia, in science specifically, so pretty much live and breathe hypothesis testing and experimental design. As such, while everyone was on about Kelly's wave pool and its implications for surfing in the mainstream spotlight (not that it isn't already), I was thinking jackpot, we now have a facility that provides us with the closest thing to a standardized testing environment to empirically test board design as a whole. For example, with the appropriate technology (keep that bit to myself), we can now actually measure how water is interacting with a board (i.e., different bottom contours, flex, fins; everything!) in real-time while a surfer rides a wave that can be replicated infinitely! To me, having this capability is one of the single most important things to ever happen in surfing, the possibilities in R & D are limitless, right up there with any innovation that has ever happened (actually surprised Webber and Slater haven't clicked yet, but maybe they have and keeping it on the sly).

Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean Monday, 27 Mar 2017 at 3:34pm

For me that's what hawaii is for terminal. You don't need a wave pool....Hawaii is the best place to test boards. So is the beach closest to your home. If you test two or more boards in the same time/ conditions you can really start breaking down , understanding different characteristics.
For me the wave pool is a vacuum, it's not real, so a board that works in a wave pool won't show the same traits anywhere else.

Terminal's picture
Terminal's picture
Terminal Saturday, 1 Apr 2017 at 8:17am

Totally agree Lanky Dean, the type of board you would test and develop in a 2-3 foot wave pool is obviously totally different to what would be ridden at sunset or pipeline. But a large portion of surfers don't/won't ever surf waves like that and will be hitting their local which is going to be 2-3 foot 90% of the time (sorry, that's what I had in mind when writing my previous comment: average joe surfer, average wave). In terms of collecting good empirical data on anything though, you need to control for as much as you can, otherwise each datapoint collected is not comparable with the last one and it makes it very difficult to tease out and build a picture on what it is you actually want to measure (and then make statements on). In surfing for example, natural waves are different every time and this presents a serious limitation (from a scientific perspective) in collecting good comparable data on something such as board performance (I think it would be very difficult to get your work published using data collected under natural conditions). Here, Jimmy Slades' wave pool fills that gap by providing a controlled, "vacuum" environment (perfect word for it), were board performance can be tested on identical waves an infinite number of times. I suppose you could think of Jimmys' wave pool as analogous to a wind tunnel where white coats test plane wings or friction coefficients for cars. By the way, really not trying to offend anyone and have the utmost respect for all shapers out there, you guys provide the interface between us and the wave. I can just see low hanging fruit with that wave pool and some surfing scientist is gonna make some amazing contributions to surfing there sooner or later (wish it was me).

Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean Saturday, 1 Apr 2017 at 4:35pm

"For me the wave pool is a vacuum, it's not real, so a board that works in a wave pool won't show the same traits anywhere else."
Plus the wave pool is broken. I will stick to the beach, well actually the waves in the ocean at the beach to test the equipment .

Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean Saturday, 1 Apr 2017 at 4:54pm

You'd probably be interested in an article @stunet did on Greg Webber last year. it involved shaping a board with one design element missing. Pretty darn interesting really.

The funny thing about testing boards is any good shaper will tell you every board will be different. From blank / glassing / material strength/ temperature at time of production/
boards just have too many variables. Then every surfer's stance is different/ most surfers have different body type. Every time you surf you have a different amount of energy/ flexibility /awareness.

The one board fits all, just doesn't work with surfing.

Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean Monday, 27 Mar 2017 at 3:35pm

@stunet,
did you ride the two boards in the same session on the same time, tide, wind and swell. Did both boards have the same leashes?

PCS PeterPan's picture
PCS PeterPan's picture
PCS PeterPan Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017 at 9:51am

Cory , I did not intend to sound negative but my comment does read a little that way.
Im grateful there are dedicated craftsmen/designers such as you that offer valuable info
and craft for us surfers to ride. . . all the best PCS.

cory's picture
cory's picture
cory Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017 at 11:08am

I didn't think you were being negative at al it was a good observationl. I just wanted to share with you why shapers often push design ideas to the extreme but release them with a bit more subtlety to the market. Cheers ;)

Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean Thursday, 30 Mar 2017 at 10:45pm

Remember seeing a gerry Lopez short board around 2001, that had a ridiculous amount of single concave, board was a five ten. The thing must have flown.
A buddy had a Maurice Cole tow board that had an even crazier amount of single concave. That thing was/went crazy .

Noticed in Hawaii a few year ago local shapers using single or double concaves then using vee behind the back fin of thrusters.

gcuts's picture
gcuts's picture
gcuts Thursday, 30 Mar 2017 at 8:46am

OK, so let's use an an example, a shortboard, for average joe.

Bottom contours going from a flattish nose into a single concave with double concave inside the single starting just under the chest / front foot, getting deeper in both single and double concave into the fins and then flow into a slight vee from back fin out.

Pretty standard board?

What makes or breaks one board from another? Is it the depth and transition of the changes in bottom contour?

I think it is related to the rocker impacts, both stringer rocker and rail rocker.

Getting that stringer rocker curve smooth and consistent flow would be key?

So, for example the vee in the last 3 inches, would kick the rail rocker so it looks like it has a flick in the tail at the rail, while the stringer rocker is flatter?

The deepening of the single concave from say chest into fins would flatten the stringer rocker, while the rail rocker stays more curved?

Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean Saturday, 1 Apr 2017 at 4:39pm

" The deepening of the single concave from say chest into fins would flatten the stringer rocker, while the rail rocker stays more curved?" - centre of board would have a decreased radius.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Saturday, 14 Oct 2017 at 9:55am

Jim Banks - FLV
Jims has a write up on his site experimenting with Full length nose to tail V bottoms.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Friday, 13 Jul 2018 at 6:47pm

mateo and brittany insta - 12 channels.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Friday, 13 Jul 2018 at 6:48pm

Copying Richo.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Friday, 13 Jul 2018 at 6:49pm

Nose to Tail

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Friday, 13 Jul 2018 at 6:52pm

Not much plain white in that IG feed.

Fliplid's picture
Fliplid's picture
Fliplid Friday, 13 Jul 2018 at 9:45pm

Earle showing how its done

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 7:18pm

A bit of Classic Phil Myers Vent footage - Glenn Curtis on a 8'0 Vent

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Thursday, 14 Jul 2022 at 7:58am

Flying Vees.....Are you still close by to Banks Headquarters Stu for a hands on inspection?

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Thursday, 14 Jul 2022 at 9:36am

Nah, back in the office as of today.

Sounds like a vee into a spiral vee (as opposed to concave into spiral vee).

Island Bay's picture
Island Bay's picture
Island Bay Monday, 18 Jul 2022 at 8:23am

Sounds like a DS, or many other modern guns.

simba's picture
simba's picture
simba Thursday, 14 Jul 2022 at 9:42am

all been done before by other shapers...sorry jimbo

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Monday, 18 Jul 2022 at 8:08am
Fliplid's picture
Fliplid's picture
Fliplid Monday, 18 Jul 2022 at 8:30am

Maybe he's just been looking over GW's shoulder?

FrazP's picture
FrazP's picture
FrazP Monday, 18 Jul 2022 at 8:49am

So what's the verdict though - will it live up to the promo? Any one seen Kelly on his JB twins?

spinafex's picture
spinafex's picture
spinafex Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 10:40am

I was interested in this Banks/Spyder/Webber bottom contour so I whipped up a twin pin type shape with said curves (all eyeballed from pics) in shape 3dx sent the file off to the good people at Kinasurf - three weeks later got the board. Tested it at the Melbourne wave pool last night. The design is legit. Goes better than my previous best pool board JS Bullseye with H4's and I thought that was pretty amazing. Feeling is very smooth rail to rail, but with speed and carried momentum when you engage the rail. I'm running upright keels but the board doesn't feel like a twin or a thruster. My feeling is it would give a performance edge to wider more voluminous shapes.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 12:44pm

Got some Pics Spina ?

spinafex's picture
spinafex's picture
spinafex Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 2:39pm

How do I post pics here?

lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 2:50pm

upload to a carrier such as imgur
then right click 'copy image address' or 'copy post link' whatever it offers you.
and then paste between the below brackets in the comment
[img][/img]

spinafex's picture
spinafex's picture
spinafex Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 3:13pm

Thanks got it

spinafex's picture
spinafex's picture
spinafex Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 3:11pm

lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 3:05pm

Make sure what you paste is in the i.imgur format

Eg
https://i.imgur.com/wBP2ZHj.jpg

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 3:19pm

Tail 1 ft up - 17+ inches ?

spinafex's picture
spinafex's picture
spinafex Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 3:56pm

Its 5'10" x 19.8" x 2.5" Tail is 15" Nose is 13.7" 30.95 litres

lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 3:21pm

Looks schmick!

spinafex's picture
spinafex's picture
spinafex Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 4:03pm

Yep shop quality - was expecting that though. Kinasurf do the Channel Island epoxys

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 4:28pm
spinafex's picture
spinafex's picture
spinafex Saturday, 22 Oct 2022 at 11:54am

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 3:01pm

This Mob https://kinaroad.com/
What the Cost of that Board.....EPS or PU ?

spinafex's picture
spinafex's picture
spinafex Friday, 21 Oct 2022 at 3:12pm
stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Monday, 18 Jul 2022 at 9:11am

Jim in marketing mode.

He's always had the capacity to appear as both uber soul surfer, on one hand, and carnival spruiker on the other. This latest claim is more of the latter, and good on him, he's in business after all.

FrazP's picture
FrazP's picture
FrazP Monday, 18 Jul 2022 at 9:53am

He does make good boards though Stu. My favourite indo boards.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Monday, 18 Jul 2022 at 9:58am

Agree. I've had a couple of great boards from him.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Tuesday, 19 Jul 2022 at 8:54am

Over a few recent IG posts on Jim's account, Greg Webber is mildly taking Jim to task over his claims with this design.

Greg's listed numerous accounts where he's worked on versions of the design, to the extent his GSI boards - Afterburner et al - incorporated it, meaning the design has been dropped into tens of thousands of boards before.

One such tete-a-tete ends with Jim saying: "what I’m doing is not a double concave." Hard to understand how it isn't a double concave when he says it's a vee rising out of a concave, and in this video (https://www.jimbanksurf.com/future-form) - check the 0:34 second mark - he even shows it as a double concave.

And if there's any doubt that what he's doing is a double concave, this image is on Jim's website. It's a cross section of his new design. 

lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy Tuesday, 19 Jul 2022 at 9:17am

When your narcissistic personality disorder is as far advanced as Jim's, you're never gonna lose the argument.

philosurphizingkerching's picture
philosurphizingkerching's picture
philosurphizing... Tuesday, 19 Jul 2022 at 10:59am

Note in the above photo it is not shaped into a flat bottom, note how the point at the stringer is lower than the rails.
Maybe this is the subtle difference.

lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy's picture
lostdoggy Tuesday, 19 Jul 2022 at 11:02am

With the vee jutting out more than the rail I believe is called a Twin vee concave or vee double concave.
Been done many times before.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Tuesday, 19 Jul 2022 at 11:08am

Higher or lower, it's just a double concave by any other name. I've got a number of boards in the shed arranged either way. Most of them are only doubles in the back half of the board, as per Jim's design.

In fact, I've even got a Hayden Shapes that runs as a vee from the nose into a double concave with the stringer lower than the rails before fading towards a shallow vee near the tail.

Pretty much exactly what Jim has done.

philosurphizingkerching's picture
philosurphizingkerching's picture
philosurphizing... Tuesday, 19 Jul 2022 at 11:06am

True, my Micheal Cundith mal has this.
Convex bottom with double concaves then shaped into the tail area.

simba's picture
simba's picture
simba Tuesday, 19 Jul 2022 at 11:13am

Lets not forget George Greenoughs designs a long time ago

stunet's picture
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stunet Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 7:25am

Jim doubling down that he's created something totally new.

I can understand that a business person would make outlandish claims to drive sales, but more surprising is the amount of people going along with the chicanery. Not everyone though, there's a few people pushing back against him, mainly other shapers such as Duncan Campbell, Luke Studer, Muzz Bourton (in his own polite way), Archer Drinan, Rhino Laminating.

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simba Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 8:00am

mmm well plenty have done it before and are still doing a version pretty much the same now

http://www.willwebbersurfboards.com/dugong.html

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groundswell Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 8:01am

Not sure what to think of that..seems like hype to me even though i like most of his shapes and history.
One thing Jim is good at is hype.
However one of the best long stories i read, (which I'll cut extremely short)was of him going to g-land with his Bali Om prize money and surfing 6-8 foot speedies one glassy perfect morning by himself as he noticed it didn't have morning sickness.
One 8 foot pit he pulled into raced on until he felt the foamball come up under his fins, then board and spun his board 180 degrees and he swung his upper body to continue looking out the exit of the pit.
He didn't count how long this went on for but it seemed a long time, then as the barrel was spitting his rail caught an edge (which could knock some off balance) however he spun back around and came out of the pit as easy as though he was laying in a hammock.

One negative thing i found with him is his music, talk story MAKE MONEY off fans and friends sessions around Australia. He got booted out of cronulla as far as i know as everyone thought what a wanker on "beware the nulla" facebook page he advertised it on.
That page is half ex punkers from the 80's and 90's still punkin on and a couple throwing bottles at cops sometimes.

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goofyfoot Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 12:42pm

So he ended up going fins first in the tube then spun back around and came out?

Wtf is wrong with this bloke?

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groundswell Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 1:25pm

Yeah mate, traveled through the pit with his board backwards facing out of the pit for a long time on top of the foamball just floating through the chamber, then caught an edge and his board swung back around and fins grabbed and he was let loose. It was an epic long story he had on his website around 2005 or 2006.I believe it too.

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Craig Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 1:31pm

Good mushie shake that one!

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simba Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 8:16am

actually heres a better view of Wills version....and i know his brother Greg has been doing theses since Jesus times

http://www.willwebbersurfboards.com/rdc.html

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groundswell Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 8:16am

And life force guidance or whatever the hell he called it. Cant remember how much it was but it was pricey and its how i thought of selling anti gullible pills for $499 a 30 pack.

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Standingleft Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 9:37am

Jim's shaping credentials are top shelf, and his R&D is first class with a team of riders and the eminently repeatable perfection of the Uluwatu reef at his doorstep.
Shaper pumps up new contour as the latest and the greatest, c'mon that's been going on since 1959.
You can say it's all been done before but you can't say you don't want to ride one. Magic most likely.
Stacks on Jim. What's he done wrong? Over-claimed? Double Conc or Rolled Vee, even the pros are having trouble seeing a difference. Just needs a clip of Kelly going psycho on one and the phones will go code red

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stunet Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 9:45am

Stacks on..?

Mate, just putting a historical perspective on things. He claimed it as a first, I'm saying it's not....and a few other shapers and punters are chiming in and saying the same.

It's the court of public opinion, and unless you want to live in a world of superficial marketing, this is the way it's supposed to work.

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Standingleft Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 10:43am

All good mate, just chucking my ¢2 worth in. Seems to me whenever he sticks his head up they line up, respectfully mostly which is great like you say but others have pretty negative views.

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abc-od Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 9:56am

I'm bewildered that Jim doesn't know what a double concave is.

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groundswell Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 11:53am

I guess i was getting a bit nasty for Jim just trying to be an entrepreneur in different fields. I dont see a problem with making money of producing/playing good music and telling stories i guess it just rubbed me off as Jim trying too hard to make a dollar off his fans but all successful musicians,comedians and story tellers do that.
I do see a problem of offering a guiding light for peoples futures and charging top dollar for it though.
He is not a psychologist or psychiatrist. Just claims to have those skills while charging top dollar.
Also charging $2000 a board a year or two ago was robbery.
However he is a good craftsman and i dont know enough about surfboard design to say anything about this actually being just a double concave or not, or whether it makes a board magic.
I've usually found i dont find a boards magic till ive ridden it in quality winter waves or dry season indo waves for at least a month, then i start getting it wired. That was when i was a lot younger, now it takes a lot longer.
Jim seems like a good guy when ever ive spoken with him in person or emailed him, just maybe he gets a bit hyped up about new designs he has come up with.
Really like his range of fish, pretty hard to find a guy making fish that are meant for indo and NW Aus barrels and point breaks.
His indo rocket looks great too. All the best to him but i wish it had of worked out well for him with the "indo odyssey" 8-12 years ago, that seemed promising and i hear it ran into trouble and lost money.

One other problem was he released all the spots he found in an online journal to all his customers with a password. Thats blowing the lid open on more spots in indo than any surf guide book or any website member with a several long land based trips under the belt. It blew the lid on secret spots all across indo.
Not good kosher. Especially with google earth/maps.

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Standingleft Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 12:22pm

I met a bloke called Jim sitting at the Single Fin Cafe. We had a good chat, about the Mooball pub etc and he seemed to know every detail about the shoulder to head high peelers below. Said he had a house on the headland, invited us to stay !!
Pretty hospitable dude but must've rubbed a bunch of folk the wrong way over the years

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Standingleft Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 1:07pm


Look what just popped up in my feed. KS unleashed at Ulus. I zoomed in, it's one of Jim's

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groundswell Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 1:42pm

Nice i love racetracks but swell looked a bit weak and small when Kelly was out then that guy got a decent one around 1:37 which looked like the proper racetracks i remember.
Haven't surfed it since 1999 as every time i went to bali after that i figured the bukit had strangled itself to death and i was rusty with my boards after working long shifts for months, so went to kuta reef and medewi to get used to my boards every april. Then off to where ever else i had planned.Kuta reef wasnt very good for warming up as it was crowded but medewi is good for warming up for a stint if the trades or monsoons didnt kick in too early.

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Fliplid Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 1:55pm

Looks like the design really works, no wonder Greg Webber has stuck with it for all these years ;)

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philosurphizing... Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 2:24pm

Pointing out a difference between Jims and Wills, is where the transition starts.

(He is holding the nose end)
As you can see in this screen capture of Wills the transition starts forward of halfway, looks to be about 2/3 to 3/4 up from the tail.
Whereas Jim mentions his starts in the rear half of the board.
In other words directly under a surfers stance.

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udo Thursday, 21 Jul 2022 at 2:38pm
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udo Friday, 22 Jul 2022 at 11:06am
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udo Wednesday, 27 Jul 2022 at 11:37am
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udo Sunday, 21 Aug 2022 at 9:25am
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udo Sunday, 25 Sep 2022 at 11:34am

FFW - - 2015
Future Form Wingnut

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wingnut2443 Wednesday, 19 Oct 2022 at 9:40am

Didn't realise you'd posted that Udo.

The Fuck Up fairy sure did a job on that one!

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linez Wednesday, 19 Oct 2022 at 9:44am

Did you end up finishing it Wingy?

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I focus Sunday, 25 Sep 2022 at 12:30pm

Whoo thats a far bit of foam missing...

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udo Wednesday, 19 Oct 2022 at 9:01am
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udo Wednesday, 7 Dec 2022 at 12:50pm

~ PipeDream Surfboards ~
The channel bottom grip and drive.

A forward concave and a tail vee in the channel area was what we did in the day. These days some shapers run channels right through tail concaves but I reckon that is over- bight! The tail is what I call a cornered squash which had the bight of a corner and the flow of a round tail.

Due to the bight of tail channels I have always thought that a flyer should be there to exhaust the channels trapped water. Without they over cling to the face and in turn stiffen the board rail to rail. I also liked to have some decent bottom curve where the channels were deepest , again to combat the negatives that channels can create.

The centre channel would fade out of the tail rather than run out deep like the two outside channels. The reason for this is that it would if gouged out the rail as deep as the others, it would not allow the tail let go unless you continually stood over it.

There is indeed an art to keeping a channel bottom free, and all those tricks are in this model.

If you like the point surfs up our way or you go to Indo regularly this model may have many functional usages for you. As I said the typical clinker channel bottom has not been advanced for a long time and is in my opinion a perennial.

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udo Wednesday, 26 Apr 2023 at 9:23pm

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udo Saturday, 29 Apr 2023 at 7:37am


A bit of BacknForth in the Comments :-]

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stunet Saturday, 29 Apr 2023 at 7:36am

Ha ha ha....jeez he's a swindler.

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lostdoggy Saturday, 29 Apr 2023 at 7:39am

I was reading that post yesterday actually and noticed he back tracked a bit saying he “never claimed I invented it” when pushed by Greg Webber.

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stunet Saturday, 29 Apr 2023 at 8:57am

"I believe this new bottom contour is the most significant development in surfboard design for the last 25 years."

-JB, July '22

"You're misunderstanding our claim. I’m not saying I invented it, I’m just saying it’s a revolutionary breakthrough in the performance of my own boards."

-JB, April '23

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udo Thursday, 17 Aug 2023 at 5:43pm

~ Future Form is NOT a Double Concave .... nor is it a Concave Vee ~

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udo Sunday, 18 Jun 2023 at 12:29pm
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udo Sunday, 18 Jun 2023 at 12:42pm
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udo Sunday, 2 Jul 2023 at 1:51pm
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udo Monday, 7 Aug 2023 at 9:38am
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udo Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 6:14pm