10 Foot 6: The Number Of The Beast
Oh dear god you should hold one of these things! 10 foot 6 inches of foam, fibreglass, and fin wrapped in three layers of six ounce glass housing the most beautiful stringers you’ll ever lay your eyes upon.
It’s the modern BIG wave board. And it’s all yours…if you want it.
Tucked under your arm at just the right angle it feels oh-so-good, and within a second your mind starts to believe you really could ride one of these things in the manner for which it was intended. But shuffle that sucker just an inch or so either way...the balance shifts, it becomes heavy, awkward, scary even, and the reality of what, and who, it was made for becomes frighteningly apparent. The bubble’s been burst and best you put that thing back in the rack, slowly...it ain’t for you.
But the fact is, that 10’6" and perhaps about 100 or so worldwide were made for someone. A handful were destroyed at Jaws a couple weeks ago but the rest are currently asleep waiting for the next purple blob to appear to appear on the wave models. And if you were to hazard a guess at who or what was partially responsible for the modern big wave board what’d be your pick?
Dorian? Yep, for sure, but try again. Jaws? Mmm, sorta. The retro movement of the late 2000s...? Bingo! Well, so says John Carper anyway. And if the same guy who crafts boards for Dorian to ride at Jaws says so, it’s probably worth a listen.
“In a way we had to go back before we went forward,” Carper told Swellnet from his Oahu shaping bay.
“And it kind of all started with a couple of retro fishy type boards I shaped a while back. They had a lot of volume; real straight rocker and those real full beaked noses that were common back in the seventies. Anyway, all the guys like Rasta, Andy (Irons) and Shane (Dorian) were having a blast on them at pretty solid Backdoor and Pipe and finding they just wouldn’t pearl. About the same time we were trying to figure out a way for Shane to deal with those massive chops in the face at Jaws and I figured, let’s just put this in the guns and see what happens.”
History now shows the little “see what happens” experiment worked, but Carper says there was a lot of back and forth between himself and Dorian before the magic started to happen.
“Initially we went up to 12-to-13 foot boards but the feedback indicated that was just too much board,” says Carper.
“So it was just a matter of careful refinement till we got what we were chasing. The most frustrating part was that each of those boards I shaped had to basically equal 10 boards ‘cos I make so few. I’ve literally made thousands and thousands and thousands of 6’1 squash tails but only a handful of these [the 10’6’s], so I’d spend up to four hours designing and redesigning the board on my computer before sending it to the shaping machine to be cut.”
When the dust finally settled, there sat a beast of a board measuring 10’6” x 21 inches wide x 3.75 inches thick. Flipped over, the bottom reveals very little rocker with a straight “vee” profile running through the length of the board which was glassed with three layers top and bottom of six ounce glass and a quad fin set-up.
Carper says this year’s quiver were fairly similar to the original landmark board save for a fraction extra width and a touch more thickness.
“It all comes down to Shane and the guys wanting to “surf” those waves, not just ride them,” Carper says. "And the level of confidence is so high with those guys that I think we’ll now see some experimenting going on within that magic number.”
Which is exactly what is starting to happen an island away in Sean Ordonez’s shaping bay on Maui. Ordonez is responsible for the boards underneath the feet of some of Maui’s finest, including Albee Layer, Matt Meola and Paige Alms. He, like Carper, says the push for continual refinement stems from his teams’ urge to get barrelled at macking Jaws.
“A very important advancement that came out last season was a new style of nose riding gun that can be ridden a foot shorter than previously,’’ says Ordonez. “For example, I had Albee Layer riding a 10’2 and 10’4 last season and this year he’s already comfortable on a 9’4” and an 8’8”. It all stems from the new breed of young charging surfers who have that under the lip take off approach into the barrel that I guess they picked up from body boarders.”
And with the first Jaws swell of the season out of the way Ordonez was quick to seek any feedback from his riders.
“The new widths and lengths worked really well. Paige and Nokoa (Decoite) were particularly excited about the smoothness which gave them extra confidence to charge,” Ordonez reports. “I asked Albee what I could change to improve the 8’8” he was riding and he paused and didn’t answer which I deduced means he like it as is!”.
One of Australia’s leading big wave shapers, Marty Littlewood, was just as quick to pick up and run with the idea that an increased thickness was the obvious step forward in big board design. So much so his supplier Burford Blanks had to add more volume to its thickest available blank, bringing it up to 4 ¼” which allowed Littlewood to get a finished thickness of four inches.
“There’s more volume and weight in the boards now for sure, and that’s been the biggest addition to what we’ve known for a long time,” says Littlewood. “Outlines and rockers have been sorted for ages but now with all the outside bombies being surfed everyone’s looking for paddle power,” he says.
One of Littlewood’s most recent boards for Damon Eastaugh measures 10’6" x 21 ½ x 4” and is set up with a Grant “Twiggy” Baker signature double foiled fin set. Like most of Littlewood’s boards, it was machine shaped a couple clicks up the road in fellow big wave board shaping veteran Al Bean’s shaping bay. And like Carper, the underside of Littlewood’s boards reveal nothing too radical other than a tried and tested design.
“As for the bottom contour it’s vee, vee and more vee going to a rolled vee in the front third and I’m now starting to put a double concave in the belly,” he says. “The double concave seems to work really well with the additional weight of those boards and just helps to build up momentum which is what you want when you’re hunting down a 20 plus footer.”
And as for fin set up, Littlewood is convinced quads will begin to gain popularity once they are proven amongst Margaret River’s big wave elite. “Quads are coming and I can see the point to them,” he says.
“But I only make what people ask for, I certainly don’t try and point anyone in any direction ‘cos we’re dealing with waves of serious consequence and I don’t want that responsiblilty!”
And what story about big waves and big boards would be complete without referencing Jeff “Camel” Goulden who recently returned to Margaret River to trial a stash of new big boards shaped by East Coast shaper, Wayne Webster. Swellnet bumped into Camel in the car park at Mainbreak shortly after he’d put a new 9’6’’ quad through its paces in silky smooth conditions out at Southsides.
Though always known for his prowess in big waves, Camel has indeed stepped things up a notch or two of late, in part, he says, due to an increased confidence in board design due to the partnership with Webster, who also shapes for Grant “Twiggy’’ Baker. And the partnership has already paid dividends, with Camel putting in some incredible performances out at Cow Bombie and other southwest bombies of late.
“I went through a stage where I rode any type of board I could find that was bigger than 10 foot. These boards are basically an accumulation of that and they’re the closest I’ve ever gotten to the boards that I’ve always wanted,” says Camel. “I’ll ride them in all sorts of conditions and try all the different fin set ups so when it’s on…I know exactly what I’m doing.”
Indeed he does, as a brace of recent XXL nominations will attest to. Camel offers the board for inspection and it certainly is a thing of beauty and much heft. Yet held under arm at just the right point it feels light as a feather.
The board is returned and Camel wanders off through the car park, tucking the future of big wave surfing gently into the back of a Landcruiser. Oh dear god you should hold one of those things! //ANTHONY PANCIA
Comments
great read. Thanks.
8'8" at Jaws! that seems tiny.
Caml, what are the dims on those ones Webby is making for you?
Hey freeride 76,
The one Of Camel's referenced in the story was 9'6" x 21'1/4 x 3'7/8 he had it set up as a quad, though it had five fin boxes so it obviously could also be run as a thruster. Such a sweet looking board! He also has a couple more either side of that-hopefully he'll chime in with those dimensions.
8'8" at 30 foot Jaws??? Sean Ordenez's volume calculator must be broked.
Interesting comment from Marty Littlewood, I thought quads were already accepted on guns. Not the case in WA yet? In 2001 I borrowed a Jeff Clark Tufflite in Hawaii with a quad set up and got all sort of strange looks. When I went back in 2005/6 most of the serious guns I saw (9ft+) had quads.
Great article though Swellnet, not sure what JC would think of the title considering his beliefs? Maybe "Psalm 10 foot 6" might've been better.
Nev b b the odd looks at the board were possibly more likely becos it was tuflite rather than quad finner . seeing the norcal crew used quads for ten yrs before that
One last thing....check the planshapes of JC's boards with the wide point just about in the middle. In my experience that's another new thing. The wide point has been brought back slightly which narrows the nose. Yet the thickness up front has been beefed up. More foam for paddling, less width for turning.
I've been analysing the footage and it's very obvious that all of the usual boards including these have a major flaw which causes the riders to eat it on a regular basis. I can fix it, but it's a matter of finding a rider.
I'll just leave this here randy rarick review of Roy stuart board on the north shore
&sns=emYeah roy interesting . What is flawed about dorians approach ? & yes thats unteresting that marty says quads arent the dominant fin setup . Could be the type of big wave around the area hasnt required change of fin setup ?
Awesome article and insight.
Camel, by the "type of big waves" do you mean around Margs it's more just big drops and slower running walls, hence not needing that extra speed and projection from the quads compared to say the faster racing bowls of Peahi/Jaws where any speed advantage is welcomed?
Hi Caml, the boards look very nice except for the tails. I could describe what I'd do in detail but would rather make a board which is ridden and proves the point.
I'll make you some if you like.
Roy I volunteer to honourably ride one of your crafts ! Craig yeah sortof but im wondering rather than being sure .in fact i think the waves are very suitable for quads but maybe the crew havent gone that far for watever reason or . It be nteresting to know maybe . I only stopped thrustering less than a yr ago for my boards.
Cool! I'll be in touch. It's going to take a little while as I have to clear the decks first. I'm finishing a 10'6" at present, but an all rounder rather than a dedicated gun, and wood rather than foam. I'll do yours in foam and 3d glass. I see that you have various lengths is 10'6" your go to length for big waves?
Hi Cam,
If you'd like to drop me an email to [email protected] we can get this under way. Thanks!
Craig theres 2 big lefts that i think a quad would be great . Also a big right bommie
Roy what size/style of fins would you recommend for the board under Dorians arm.
Hi Udo,
I'm not sure to be honest. The same size as he's using probably.
Couple of photos from Camel of him on a quad in Margs, linking it through to the Rivermouth.
holy f%^&^**
Sick.
There is a lot of bumpy big waves in margs . Im unsure the reason will ask around
Roy either 10"0 or 10"6 or even 9"6 are go to sizes for the new shorter gun style . for jaws maybe bigger rather than short .
Epic shots Camel, thanks for posting Craig.
Second that Groundswell. Some very very solid Margs. Perfectly slotted Camel :-)
Pics by jamie scott thanks
A quick look at the guns around margs has mostly thruster most popular with quads , 5fin claws & singles all in the second most popular category . This year was by far the most progressive in terms of big waves paddled into in the area . A couple of 15-20ft with good conditions days where surfed and barrells ridden
Here is a review of Roy's boards from Randy Rarick "For Hawaii, you don't need that much rocker. Maybe some nose lift to keep from pearling, but the extreme rocker didn't fit in the curve of the wave and just seemed to slow it down. While the soft rails in the nose are very forgiving, to extend it all the way to the tail makes if feel like an old '60's tanker. I would add some rovings and build up an edge in the tail so that you get some release off the tail. As of now, with the soft rolled rail in the tail, the water wraps over the rail and that combined with the extreme tail lift, just makes it slow down. There is simply no release in the tail. The fin as mentioned above is more area than necessary for the tail width and just tends to create additional drag. Template wise, I would of moved the wide point forward to allow more tail rail, which would of improved the "run" aspect of the board, as now with the curve in the back, it just cuts down what "turning" radius there is. The rocker is way too extreme and you could cut off two feet of nose and it would not hamper the performance of the board in any way. This particular board, as mentioned was fun to ride. The only problem is that I had to make it work. It didn't make it easy for me. I doubt I would want to take it out in anything much hollower than what I had it in, since as I mentioned above, there was no way I could get any drive off the bottom. On a big facy wave it would be fun, but the idea of taking this out to Pipeline would be a scary thought in my opinion." http://www.swellinfo.com/forum/showthread.php?18054-Discussing-Roy-s-sur...
Love Roys reply....sorry but Randy is totally wrong he rode six waves and fell off on four of them.
bottom line is he failed to ride the board as it was designed to be ridden and failed to realize this was due to rider error.
Ha, well he kinda has a point.
Seems he is falling off due to lack of drive and getting run down by the wave
&sns=em... and that's exactly what happened.
.
The front fins Caml, same size /rake as each other ? same or different materials ?
Woah ive really hijacked this thread now ! Yep shark deterrent paint and small fins for small waves . Fins are often assymetric in my boards i put smaller size on cutback side for less drive doing turns ( easier )
Well if you've taken over... What about the outline?
Dorians look like a stretched short board in the nose, like NBB said.
All the big boards I've seen lately have mainly been tear drop shape.
But that one in the photo you've got is different again, comes up through the middle like normal, but starts cutting in between the top two black stripes, like a current short board, trying to lose a few inches in length, but in a board that long, you might have cut out half a foot?
a lot of shapers abandoned that old tear drop shape years ago and went for a narrower nose as wind doesn't get under the noses as much which means better penetration on the take offs and also ya can get more curve through the tail of the board which stops tracking ,as the tear drop shape means you have a much straighter outline around the fins......all newer designed guns have had this the last few years!
Camel I roughly remember your height , but whats your current " fighting weight " . I realise you probably don't have a set scales .... ;-))))
but i'd be interested to know as I reckon we are probably pretty close in size . I've always rode bigger boards than average and am probably about to order or even shape a new xl gun .
Tony Hardy, great bloke, still a great surfer, always checking the surf. Now there is a man who knows how to shape boards, goes about his business quietly and deserves respect. Unlike some.
A champion TH
Hey caml did/do you use/test any of paully gravelles beasts? If I may ask
Yeh theyre great no doubt hes incredible
sorry camel , phone went flat .
i reckon they should build a statue of Tony at Main Break carpark , 'cause when and if he leaves us . The surf won't pump unless it thinks he's watchin over it ....
that man's like part of the cliff top ... classic
PS .
Camel could you stand up on that thing ( clearly forward of centre ) without it sinking . looks like a cross between a wave sailboard and a SUP . no disrespect , we all know you can steer them better than 99.5 % of the surfing population . The deck doesn't look that rolled compared to Dorians boards rails look solid at around shoulder - head height .
Recently bought one of those Burfords gun blanks mentioned in the article(10'8") fucken scare even looking at the thing, let alone picking it up.
Am wanting to make a 10'oh out of it and keen to get onto a good plain shape, like you mentioned brutus. Haven't the time or money for trial and error.
Any ideas how I would go about getting one of those modern outlines?
Want to keep volume to a max.
Blending curves. Make sure you set printer to 100%.
Mothart, try swaylocks, blending curves or a paper template in the post from somebody with one .
How much was that rhino blank ? whats the stringer thickness ?
I'm pretty interested in this thread.
All the big wave boards in Hawaii seem so narrow and pulled into a sharp pin. Same with Dorian's photo.
Don't get to ride my 10'1 that much so it wouldn't make much difference if it was 9'6 or 10'6, its frickin hard to turn and surf. Having ridden a friends 9'6 and mine as a thruster it sometimes lifts a bit in the tail. So I have used quads ever since but mainly as it just that much easier to turn. I'm interested what quad set up Camel uses though (c drive fins?). Have had an 8'6 made for Queeny Bombie and is much easier to get it turn midface.
4 inches that seems a lot, mines 3.5 and its a fricken boat. Maybe the rails are really bladed with the new generation of boards. When I was searching for a Waimea board last year the profile were all narrow and super pin. I guess cause you get to the bottom half of the wave and it drops out completely and you want the board to hold.
Be nice to get waves that were over three foot though. Apart from WA its been pretty mediocre for L waves East Coast, let alone XL waves.
Mick..just an optical allusion that the bds look narrow.....when you think that someone like SD is about 70Kgs rides 21 wide by 3 3/4......and their shortbds would be max at 18 3/4........the dimensions are quite large...
I just spoke to Noah Johnson who rode one of my 10 6 's at Jaws the other day....he go the 2 of the biggest waves on a 10 6 x 20 x 3 3/4......quad double foiled c-drives......am making 2 more for him next week but asked for 1/4 " wider and an 1/8th thicker.....and he's 60 kgs.......and as good as anyone in big waves...ya don't win an Eddie without havin the goods.....
having said that......bds are really thick under the chest with volume fwd ...and have a type of a step deck so the rail is about 2 3/4......so ya don't have a supa boaty rail which will not let you angle in at the takeoff.....
Made a couple of 10 6's for Mark Mathews which are 22" wide and 4 " thick.....am really wondering about should they be thicker as there is 25KG difference between NJ and MM.......the journey continues...am sorta bummed a bit that I am now too old to not test em myself....then again ...???
MickF i have lots of futures diffrent sizes . Mix n match em always for diffrent purposes , my choice seems not too small or not too big . But err on the smaller rather than big side . Dorians boards do have spearish nose outline but twigs do not . Theres plenty different options of course and new stuff going on in this department i reckon
Caml or Brutus.... as MF pointed out and something im also interested in is what are your thoughts on c drive fins and as a quad set up?
RCJ and Noah have both used C-drives..we swear by them in all bds ...Noah J has used the c-drive double foiled quads in all his bds frm 8 0 - 10 -6....
Brutus ,so are the back fins double foiled 50/50 in both short boards and step ups and whats the difference from a flat sided back fin?
This is great. I feel like a little grommet listening to the big boys talk shop.
Shaper nath rose says that thrusters are most common for margaret rivers waves . Backing what marty littlewood said .
I mean for big waves ( Not for small waves .
We shall see.
Udo, blank was about $170, think that includes freight to ADL.
10.5mm stringer it says on the bill... Don't have the blank near me, so I can't measure.
What's that = in"..?
just under 1/2 inch
3/8 . high density foam or not ?
having the front fins 0/30 foiled and the back 50/50 means that at higher speeds than a shortboard ,as in tow bds....foiled fins have less resistance as flat foiled fins cavitate at higher speeds.....
I use lite weight red U S foam ..as to weight the bds to 12KG we can use thicker stringers and more glass which gives you a lot more strength than higher density foam.
Appelcore stringers have a new 7 ply that is so amazing.....I am actually using triple stringers on Noahs bds to try and make the bds stiffer and increase strength....only glass them now with tints or pigments....NO Spray!!!!
One of the more amazing things happening right now is the collaboration between shapers on the Nth shore......shaping out of Eric Arakawas.....get to see JC ,Pat Rawson,Eric,Dennis Pang ,Pyzel...on a daily basis and we all discuss how to make bds better......when guys are putting their lives on the lives....shapers are really conscious of their responsibility in making sure their equipment is as good as possible....
hey Roy would love to hear any thoughts theories you have....?
That's always been the way over there hasn't it Brutus, my mate who shapes my boards lived there for 20 years and discussed ideas with other shapers , then moved to Australia and was a bit surprised at how oz shapers were more reserved in sharing.
Does the pigment make it bond better than just clear?
All makes sense as spraying a blank is like wrapping it in plastic.
you can just glass the board without color and same as a tint/pigment.......most guys like color,because easy to see if ya break ya leggie.....and have to swim and get your board...nice analogy of wrapping ya bd in plastic....
Yeah always a bit of colour on the rail also helps for air rescue to find you if you get ripped out to sea:-))
At around a hundred bucks for a pigment job I just spray with cheap enamel over the filler, having said that big guns would have to be the best value for dollar board you can buy.
Thanks Brutus,
I'm reluctant to say too much just now, but one of the problems I see with current gun design is the position of the pitch fulcrum, it causes a lot of wipeouts in my opinion... and we get to see them in HD slow mo, so it's easy to analyse. I'm into pintails, but there are a few bad habits and assumptions which have been endemic since the 70's when designing them.
hey Roy.....c'mon throw out any ideas theories you have....what Is the pitch Fulcrum you talk about?
would love to hear from you......throw it out there.....we all have so much to learn .....I know I am lot better shaper this year than last and will be better next year..design only evolves.....
Thanks Brutus.
My bent is to share and communicate but I don't have big wave riders on my boards yet, so sometimes feel that I should keep things under wraps until I do.
There's quite a bit to this but i'll start with the pitch fulcrum: when a board's nose pitches up and down it does so on a fulcrum, that's the spot on the board which isn't rising or falling with the nose movement. with a see-saw it would be the axle which the see saw pivots on. With surfboards the fulcrum isn't static, it moves aft as the nose pitches up... and forward as it comes down.. it moves with changes in the wetted surface area. Pressure is always greatest on the hull just behind the leading edge of the wetted surface area and that's where the fulcrum resides. For good control it shouldn't be too far from the rider's feet and shouldn't be too far from the mid section of the board ( at least on longer boards like guns). Nor should it move forward and back over a big range, as this radically changes the way the board responds. that's just what we see on big wave paddle in boards in action though. Tow in boards not really an issue as they are so small that the changes are in a compact range.
More to come
yeah Roy....or we could call it the sweet spot on the board.....
before I redid my guns 2 years ago in Hawaii ....I got Noah J's magic 9 6 for waimea....which he has only for the Eddie as he surfs otherbds as he does not want to break his magic bd.....spent 2 days talking and pulling apart why this bds was so good.
the bd has a point on it where NJ swings round under the bubble ledge at Waimea, he then freefalls until the nose at a 3'6" touches the water the the bd then starts to pull a higher line where he doesn't have to run out the bottom of the wave to do his turn..he showed me photos and video which scared the crap outa me......4-6 strokes, spinning under the lip and launching into a freefall takeoff then the nose at between 3-4" back of nose,,,touches the water and he starts his turn..........I noticed a dent in the deck of the board about 53 " from the nose which was his heel dent when he landed on his freefall takeoff....the deck was flat not domed.......and just forward of there was where the rocker entry 1st went into the water......
I have programmed this board and kept a flat deck on all guns and made sure that the entry line into the water is exactly like his 96........so I think Roy what you are talking about is relative to what I am talking about , as shapers have no formal hydrodynamic training...a lot of what we talk about is in laymans turns ...and lets face it ,shapers aren't that smart......as the monetary rewards are dwarfed by the passion lust to learn.........much to the distress of wives/bank managers...hehehe
Hi Brutus,
Yes we are on the same page so to speak. The sweet spot? Quite so but it 'aint sweet if it's too far back because the board isn't balanced.. there needs to be a significant length of tail behind the rider to dampen pitching and give meaningful control.
It freaks me out to see so many brave riders eating it while standing right back on the tail during takeoffs, apparently doing it for security but getting the opposite.
The nose entry is important for sure but i think that the key is what happens behind the wide point, that's what enables that early high line angling and being able to take the drop from further forward.
Flat decks definitely, dome isn't.
I've been drawing some 10'6" and 12 footers today, I thought I'd just do one but now have five planshapes each with their own rocker, if these are done in 6 inch increments up to 12' with a couple of width and thickness variations that's 80 boards, uh oh and I want to keep one of each and send some away so that's 160 boards minimum see you next century lol.
By the way 3d glass ( check parabeam) is amazing stuff I have a 50 metre roll of it. 26oz ish in one layer and it makes a 3mm thick beam structure. Beat on it with a hammer, no damage, maybe a scratch.
This quote from the article is quite telling, and relates to what i'm writing about above:
"Tucked under your arm at just the right angle it feels oh-so-good, and within a second your mind starts to believe you really could ride one of these things in the manner for which it was intended. But shuffle that sucker just an inch or so either way...the balance shifts, it becomes heavy, awkward, scary even"
Hi mc can you explain how much weakness a spray will cause ? im using dense foam and do not get any foot dents , use less stringer . Diffrent than your method
noticed winter before last at Erics...how many bds broke and were all spays even with double layer bottoms.......we then checked to see how the bs broke.....and that the bond between he foam and the glass was minimal....to the point you could just pull the glass and the glass would just peel off .....
checked out a broken gun with a tint and the bond was so good that around the break there were chunks missing...and when we tried to peel back the glass...you couldn't......
Since then on all step up bds to big guns do tints and with the big Waimea / Avalanche/Jaws bds we now put more wood and do really slow mixes so the resin penetrates the blank ( lite weight open cell) and bonds with the glass ........I have been doing all the guns for 2 mile like this for years ... the boys still haven't broke one....
not worried about foot dents as there is at least 3-4 layers of 6 oz on the deck.....
Might be a dumb question, but are you still doing big paddle guns MC? Can't recall seeing many with the bear, or the bear's print, up in the 8 foot + range. Felt to me like you'd really focussed on the short, hi-per tow boards.
Unreal comment thread BTW.
Hey NBB.....yeah I still do quite a few guns.....am trying to say pretty low profile in Aust......but still love making paddle bds,as its such a challenge ......
I actually just try and enjoy my time at home don't deal with shops...only Zaks on shortbds....and am shaping a lot here a quite a few in hawaiii
So lets not spray our blanks white .....white tint in the lam would that be better ?
Shaping co on the goldy used to do filler coat sprays then a gloss coat ..early 80s
yeah Udo ya got it no more sprays
So all that time DS and old school undergound crew have been " eyeballin " visiting Torquay lads with their brightly coloured guns . They've just been concerned for their safety on flimsy equipment .... ;-))))
Incoming news ; clear coats are the New Black ... Fashionista's following ... hehe
glad i've never sprayed or tinted for that matter . Slow cure's good too. Now i don't feel so bad " the guns " get left in the rack so often / long " especially when new .
Roy ,
your Fulcrum pivot point theory sounds great . I'm not sure on the smaller board side of that theory though . Are you referencing that the board itself provides provides its own force directly on the leading edge of the wetted area , or the board and rider combined or just the riders position in relation to that point . Does the riders height go into that equation ? ie does that effect / heighten the forces in which is transfered from rider to board . If so the ratio of rider height to board fulcrum length would be higher in a short board .
And if you take the example to the extreme ( a barefoot waterskier is planing on only half his foot and has all that fulcrum potential above ) the smallest of ripples can take them out , the straps on tow boards create an opposing balance of that fulcrim . Without those straps they are almost as fallable .
Your right on the Pressure point being just behind the leading edge of the wetted surface , after barefooting a reasonable distance the feet are extremely itchy just behind that leading wetted edge . The more mirror calm the water the hotter and more defined is that friction spot .
Hayden Cox of Hayden shapes talks Hawaiin quivers on Stabmag ........is this bloke for real !
If the serious stuff is over I will throw in my experience on a 10'6". We had the closest house to the beach so most of our friends left their boards at our place. This suited me since I would claim their occasional use in lieu of rent. This was really handy particularly during one summer when I didn't own a board myself.
It was a magnificent thing. A three stringer Gordon Woods piece of fine design in immaculate condition. 10'6" by, I'm guessing here, 23". How it came to be in the possession of one of my brother's friends was never really clear but he told us it was a tandem board, which made sense. So, for that summer, whenever all the other boards were in use, I got the 10'6". It was a sensational wave catcher but had the serious flaw that it could not be turned in any meaningful way. The angle you took off on was pretty much it. A gentle readjustment in a slow section was about the best to be hoped for. I'm not sure if this was a deliberate design feature, which is possible given it's intended use. More likely it was a result of my general adolescent scrawniness or a plain lack of skill. 12 months later I was surfing a 5'8" we glassed in my bedroom when my parents were out but that is an incident best forgotten for obvious reasons!
I've got a board similar to that BB. It's in my mates garage, christened the Mary Celeste due to its uncanny ability to surf flawlessly to shore with or without a surfer on board.
Zero chance of turning the thing in any meaningful way though.
Only heavy boards can do that.
It's an age old super tanker of a Malibu that would maybe attract some interest off the board collectors on this site if it hadn't been painted in mission brown house paint .... With a brush.
Have to go 20kgs I'd say.
You're right on that Roy. About ten years ago I picked up an old wind surfer from the clean up. It was about 9'6" x 22 x 3 1/2. I don't know how it was glassed but it weighed a ton and you could hit it with a hammer and leave nothing but a bit of a spiral crack in the resin. The idea was to use it as a paddle board, which I did, but there were some deep outside banks that would only just break at 6ft so I used to take it out there and try and beach a couple! Didn't make any difference to its trajectory if I fell off!
How old was she BB...?
the law of inertia!
This thread is like going to Valhalla, awesome. Thank you for every post, everyone.
To hear of beaked noses, tints, flat decks, heavy glass, fulcrum points, free falls into nose rocker points *heaven*! And especially all the legitimate reasons behind this, and all the serious testing going on. Great stuff.
Surfline : tracking Shane Dorian and mark Healy ,John Carper talks about Dorians 10'6 s rockers and adding lead for more weight
The P B U model ....'pray before use'
Cripes I've been making thicker noses with a softened beak for 20 years for precisely that reason... they pull back out if one pearls... but no one listened, or did they? There's another advantage to the thick rounded noses too, George Greenough knows what it is.
I'm surprised to see how far inboard Mr Carper brings his rail facet on the deck, there's only a narrow riding area left.
Thanks for the link.
Roy can you put the link up ,thanks
... as for it being hard to carry 35 pound boards down the beach, someone has their facts wrong it's much harder going back up the beach afterwards, and 70 pounds is hard, not 35.. just saying lol.
http://www.surfline.com/surf-news/tracking-shane-dorian-and-mark-healey-...
Wow im not a big wave surfer but i do appreciate a nice gun even one on steriods like Dorians,how thicks that stringer and the beak nose on that thing,beautiful looking lines.
MC is noahs magic 9"6 shaped by you or ken ? & is it the board he won the eddie on ? Thanks for the info about sprays , light foam , slow mixes . I might try a light foam board in future . At moment am using hi density and webby likes it too he says its better to shape .
MC is noahs magic 9"6 shaped by you or ken ? & is it the board he won the eddie on ? Thanks for the info about sprays , light foam , slow mixes . I might try a light foam board in future . At moment am using hi density and webby likes it too he says its better to shape .
I've shaped all bds for Noah the last 10 years or so......actually shaping the bds is really hard especially with triple stringers ......and extra hour in the shaping room vs .......unbroken bd..
I do use a supa high density foam for Tow bds...once again triple stringers...
Caml, the 10ft AlByrne you won for the big wave paddle award ,that board broke didn't it ? any idea what amount of glass it had on it ? just curious ?
Udo the first one did but the second one didnt . First one was pretty lightweight but dont know about glass now cant remember . Maybe ab told me after it broke but if i had of known i wouldnt have taken it for a surf in the conditions it went at . I think its always good to know the glass so you can know how to treat it in regard to waves size so you can try to let board survive a long life . I have my boards glassed to last not end up as trash . Its wrong that surfboards are made as disposable items .
Hi Brutus,
Excuse my ignorance but having followed most of this topic which has been very interesting, just curious as to whether these big wave boards are completely hand shaped or do they go through a machine first like most of the short boards being produced these days???
Cheers!!
all the bs I do go thru the machine...I take wees logging in the Numbers...shape the preshapes in front of the programmer..........until I have copied the generic magic bad ...get the board in the water .....test it then I am reay to go..
Noahs bds were easy as I had an old program...that was close, took abut 40 hs of computer work and hav had great success with big guns.
In this day and age hand shaping is so hit and miss.....I would not do it as these guys are putting their lives on the line....and shapers have a responsibility to deliver very very good bds to the surfers....
haha if that makes sense Rabbits then i'm a little concerned how these boards get made hahaha
Hi Brutus,
Thanks for that response, yes that all makes sense for sure. Cheers for your inputs into this topic. Great for those of us who don't know anything about the intricate nature of big wave boards & design......
I am amazed how much I take for granted that everyone sorta knows about design...find myself more and more sharing designs knowledge...
had an amazing conversation with a young kid here called Ryan Burch..supa talented surfer ,shaping asymertrics and old school craft...am excited to work/collaborate with him on some bds over here......love sharing and comparing thoughts/theories stories and surf..pretty basic stuff...but not many young guys interested....interested to see what Aistralia produces in the coming years
Too many shapers spending more time trying to think up a catchy name for their latest creation than trying to take the design further ?!?
Assymetrics for big waves now thats got to take performance to a higher level . Mc im suss on triple stringers , in margs a bunch of em snapped like biscuits . 2 very clean pieces no glass stripped as if it was brittle . You would think it would be strong , maybe it was a certain batch
Hi Caml.......a lot of the wood used in Australia is not very strong......I have used 4,6 7 ply for years....check out the Appelcore stringer site this guy is an absolute freak...
he loves building stringers ..he can tell me the torttion and flex per Square CM.....he hand makes them for s/bds.......I use a 5 ply in all my short bds...that is only 4 mm thick ........his whole life is dedicated to making better stringers.....
In fact I am importing into Australia now the gun and Tow blanks......as there is nothing in Australia even close......just doing bd sfor a few friends....hey haven't broke a bd at 2 mile yet which says a lot about how I make the bds.....they sort work also....hehe....
hey just passing on what I am learning ......today I am shaping Noah J's 2 x 10 6'S will post a few shots on Instagram...
Anthony Tashnik is riding a Pearson Arrow Twin Fin. Had a gnarly wipeout and over the falls early this year at Mavericks. MC / Camel have you tried ?
Hopefully MC is in a plane and will check in later.
MickF i saw that . But not seen the board . Very interesting , theres every other kind of fin combo for big wave boards and the windsurfers did use em for a while at margaret river . I always took iinterest in what they where using becos they went fast and had lotsa g- forces and they did huge manouvres at the margys lefts .not sure what the latest is now tho becos i stopped chasing the seabreeze seshs when the hordes took over the break . ( kites / windsurfers / euros )& they stay out until sunset leaving no spare waves for paddlers
Sickest thread! Just got a new 96 with a beak nose sent over from sparrow in Hawaii. Frothing to test it. Last season there was a lot of talk about how weak boards with full deck sprays and/ or triple triggers were
Mc so what sorta foam do u use in oz ? And how do we get applecore stringers in oz ? Please explain further this higher technology
Hi Caml....I have used all the gun blanks from Burford to Surfblanks...its all about the wood.......we have noticed recently that the classic old woods like cedar are now plantation timber which seems to have more knots in them,which creates a weak spot....you can't get longer than 8 0 ply in Australia and that's why I am now using Blanks from over here in the U S A......
Appelcore stringers are only a one man operation...and cannot meet the demand over here.......
I actually use 1/4" cedar stringers over in OZ 2 x 3" apart...supa difficult to shape because of the vee.....in the tail...but so far solid.....
problem is there is such small demand in OZ whereas over here.....make a lot....so better materials
So does that mean the stringers on any bd over 8ft are shit ? Glued together mixes of ply that have no longitudal strength ? It wouldnt suprise me , ive always thought the strength was in the glass job thus getting small stringers . Knots in the wood is just as suspected . Why not remove stringer and glass more strength?
Yeah exactly, just use more glass. We are going 3mm thick with the glass so the skin won't buckle.
it's possible to get long wooden stringers though if one wants them, not sure what the problem is there.. and scarf joins don't reduce strength if joining needs to be done.
Thanks mc good info . I have tried paulownia but there was air breathing out during glassing then was told ply is stronger . We're talking guns . What do u think about paulownia ? P.s. The triple stringers that snapped seem to be red wood maybe cedar
the spine of the board is the stringer....that's what determines the flex and tortion of the board....the glass job is the outer casing..........bonding to the foam.......take 3 layers of resin impregnated glass and snap it....try the same on a solid stringer...that's about 1/2 " thick and has a large surface area......
the foam has very little longitudal strength....and better compression.....that's why those carbon rail stringerless bds break so much....
Yeah ok . I have a 1970s singley with a resin stringerline no wood and its still taking wipeouts so i have a bit of faith in that style but wont be suprised if she cracks one day. Good info mc please tell us more about big boards made in oz with ply & paulownia stringers . Twigs riding bds made in oz by webby , using burfords & he has color sprays so does dorian . I best find out more about these stringers ay
Brutus Caml, look into CLT ply cross laminated timber ,super engineered ply for your stringers .. a newer style of cross lamination ,strong as lots of info online. wood solutions .com - rethink wood.com
need a surfer engineer to to do lots of calculations on what to use ...size, loads and timber species etc.
For stringers I think the timber 'i beam' or 'dogbone beam' shape should be looked into.
Stringers are a waste of material, strength comes from the skins it's basic engineering.
Roy, so we delete the stringers ?
So basic engineering says the strength comes from the skins.....what sort of skins should we be using ??
Use them or not, as you choose. They don't do any harm especially if one wants some more weight, and they add some strength but not efficiently. The stringer material which is at the neutral axis ( half way between the deck and the bottom) does nothing to contribute to strength. Skin wise whatever works, I'm into 3d glass at present. You are right about 'I' beams they are stronger.
'For stringers 'I THINK' the timber 'i beam' or 'dogbone beam' shape should be looked into.'
And therein lies the fucking problem udesless. Don't fucking think. Fucking spare us. Leave the thinking to us experts at it. You just stick to googling.
'what sort of skins should we be using ??'
Obviously thick ones... and that means skins... not fucking heads.
hahahaha. Oi I agree with UDO, the I beam concept makes perfect sense. Shapers are adding the carbon fibre stitch to the underside of the decks at present along the stringer. Varying opinions if it works. I would go a step further and sandwich the carbon fibre cloth either side of the stringer during construction, leaving laps the full length of the board, deck and bottom. then when it's glassed, splay the cloth towardard the rails, under a layer of standard glassing technique. How you would shape it with bits of cloth hanging out the stringer I don't know, maybe the stringer goes in last (not impossible with modern board design) but i'm conceptualising here work with me.
Roy really interested in the engineering principle that applys to stringers in s/bds....??
we are already using 4-5 layers Top and Bottom.....used stringerless EPS multiple layers fiberglass Top and bottom with epoxy years ago..they all broke until we went back to stringers.....
Hi Brutus,
The proof is in the pudding I suppose so your experience counts. The stringers willadd some strength, what I'm saying though is that the material isn't used efficiently.
If we look at a board from the side, and strike a line from nose to tail which is at the midpoint thickness wise, anything which as added at that middle line ( it's actually a plane but appears as a line from the side) experiences zero stress as the board bends, so contributes nothing strength wise. Material at the top and bottom ( i.e. at the skin level) experiences the maximum stress as the board bends, so is able to add strength. The stress goes from zero to 100% as we move from the middle line or neutral axis out to the skins. That's why material at the skins resists the bending forces the most.
Surfboards break because the skins buckle under compression. Even if the glass skins are strong in tension they are so thin that they can buckle when compressed. The best way to cure that is to make the skins thicker, without making them solid glass... for example composite skins where glass layers have a lighter spacer in between them. The 3d glass which we have here is 3mm thick with the weight of 4 layers of 6oz, 4 layers of conventional 6oz is only about 1.2mm thick. The resistance to buckling is thus 6.25 times greater with the 3d glass. The 3d glass is applied as a single woven layer so it's allconnected structurally, unlike surftech type composite skins where foam is glued in between glass layers.
We've been clobbering test pieces of 3d glass over eps, with a hammer, without denting or puncturing it... just surface scratching. With a normal glass laminates the hammer just punches through. This does relate to breaking resistance not just dings. It's a bit trickier to glass with though.
Mc what are you using 4-5 layers on ? Recently you said you were glassing guns with a 6+4 on bottom & cant remember deck with 1" stringer . and i thought thats light compared to the 3x6 oz each side that some others are doing . I respect what your saying about the stringer having merit but those lightweight eps stringerless carbon rail things are featherweight glass . i have a stringerless singley 35 yrs old that i use, in one piece ? & its not glassed heavily that i can see.
Do you mean 4-5 layers of 6 or 4 oz ? Thats mighty strong and a huge task for a laminator.
Also mc ; while we're asking ; how much does the final product weigh ? My board weighs 10.5 kg with 3x 6oz glass each side .
@Roy ,can you post a vid up showing the hammer work on the 3D glass EPS.
What do you think about 3D printing a stringer ? out of polycarbonate .
Udo we discovered the 3d glass after searching 3d printing and a youtube video of the hammer test on a 3d glass SUP came up. I've just been whacking our test piece again and a hardish clout appears to craze the laminate very slightly on the inside between the layers but without denting it, it's amazingly tough. I managed to puncture the outer skin with a knife stabbed hard ice pick style.
Here's the youtube vid I can do one as well if you like.
Here's how it works:
Roy thats great info & makes me wonder about conventional laps for normal bds glassed . Ive been thinking that its more important to have an even skin over the whole bd than say a 6oz bottom 2x6oz deck with big laps ( standard ) rather 2x4oz bottom 2x4 deck without laps . So the whole bottom is same even strength or something of the sort . Ive been told it wouldnt help and laps are very important but are they ? Why not just double up over the whole bottom ? Anyone thoughts ?
Yes I agree 100% re. having the same glassing top and bottom. Glassing heavier on the deck is done to prevent dents from the rider's feet while keeping the board as light as possible rather than to prevent the board from breaking. Breaking boards has been a great bonus for the industry, it's celebrated as a badge of honour lol.
With big wave guns even at 10.5 kg ish they are on the light side, so why not glass them just as heavy on the bottom?
Lap wise boards don't break there they buckle at the deck or bottom skin, but they help against dings.
Roy interesting, as a co named Hydroflex uses 3d glass really strong with a german infusion method ...which I have seen and used on EPS bds...but not guns yet..
have seen vacuum bagged bds you could hit with a hammer ..bit like surftech...but too brittle and rigid.......thoughts on Flex and torque in a bd??
Caml..for 2 mile I use 6 4 bottom and 66 deck as youcan use a lighter bd as the wave is cleaner.....
Noahs bd weighs 23 lb without fins...and has 4 layer of 6 oz on the T &B...Dorians had 5 x 6oz T7B and was 26 lb...Noah is only 5 2 and 60Kgs....so a bit less..
my point with the carbon rail eps stringerless is that not a very sound construction for all the hype....they break a lot....a stringer would help...go onto my website and check out the preshape of noahs today...gunna take me an extra hr to shape....and when I put the bd deck down bd still flexed......but with a really good spring/pop/memory......
Hi Brutus Hydroflex don't use 3d glass they use a glassing method which they call '3d glassing'. They put holes in the foam so that the resin runs into the holes when glassing, improving the resin to foam bond... it's no relation to 3d glass.
Man I love heavy boards it's great to hear about 5 x 6oz and the like! 35 pounds plus starts to get good, 25 pounders are so light in the water lol.
Carbon rails make no sense at all for break resistance, so much BS out there, so little time.
Wow had a look mc website looking good .
So these glass jobs must be done twice right ? 2 layers first time then the next day 3 more layers on top ? And of course jaws will still eat them but they wont ding easy when it hits ya shins in a wipeout.
yeah have some new tech thing that puts my instagrams on my website....
Looks nice, that's quite a lot of stringer wood, just about a woody.
Dorians board 26 lb = 11.7 kg . Roy that 3d glass looks strong . How much more is price than standard 6 oz ? Any thoughts on my idea for glassing without laps anyone ?
Hi Caml,
The 3d cloth works out to be just a bit more than 3 layers of 6oz. It can be lapped, or not, and adds 3mm all round so the blank has to be shaped accordingly
Well if your correct roy this 3d glass is the best . If we were going to glass one of these big wave guns with a target weight of 10-11 kg would u use one layer each side ? And what size stringer would be appropriate ? This is almost classified info !!
I've only done test patches so far, but according to the spec sheet and calculations so far the weight for a 10'6" will be about 8.1kg/18 pounds with one 3d layer, I'm not sure if that's with just the bare lamination or with filler coats etc so will report back. Of course it depends on the blank weight as well, might need some 4oz over the top we'll see.
I have some 9'8" superfused US blanks arriving next week so will start at that length. They have stringers which is convenient as they'll keep the rocker intact during glassing.
Roy or anyone else? Who is using 3d glass on their boards atm? Big wave or otherwise? I had heard of it for a while now but never really bothered to look at it. Great links there thanks Roy.
So are you working with foam mostly/ a lot of the time now Roy?? I followed a lot of the threads on swaylocks years ago, especially interested in the timber & composite boards! Always an interesting read.
Anyway, got a cheap beautiful 70's style 8'6 single fin a few years ago. 2x6 oz top and bottom. Got it for 270! Not a mark on it. Guy I got it from, won't mention his name, told me how strong it was because it soaked up 3 coats of this awesome metallic car paint. The thing really was a piece of art. Snapped 2nd time it went out at 3218m, just put it down to bad luck, any board can snap if it's in the wrong place at the wrong time after All right? Even camster snapped the best magic Dawson ever when it was 2ft!! Funny now reading about the sprays making boards weak and comparing to them being wrapped in plastic. Makes so much sense now!!
Continue the awesome discussion!
Grog as far as I know there's only the fellows making SUP boards in the video, and myself into 3d glass. I've done test patches and have the first 3 shaped blanks ready to go. I'm still doing wood but it takes so long that I'm moving to foam as well.
Can't wait to get to Hawaii and see maestro Eris Arakawa......and have a look at the 3d glass and also check out the I beam......
I wonder if that skin I so strong what effect its has on the flex and tortion in a board.....
when I last spoke to dorian he had gone too big and heavuy on his 11 2 x 21 1/2 x 4 @ 32 lbs....back to 10 6 x 21 x 3 3/4 @ 26 lb......so he has tested at Jaws .....and trialing and erroring ...glad its him...
Noah gave me the feedback that for him ..22.5 lb was perfect...but a little more float that's why we went 1/4 wider 1/8th thicker 3 .6 liters more.......
with the laps on the bottom ,we have always tried to do wider laps because the bd flex's and wider laps act as stringer on the rail...
one of the reasons I mention Felx /Tortion.......is at Jaws you must angle the board so as not to run out of the bottom of the wave into the lip zone......the board must be alive enough to do a mid face turn...and get barreled ...that is the technique to make Jaws......
I don't think we need as heavy bds in Australia as our big waves are a lot cleaner and we do more turns...talk to Anyone who's ridden jaws ...its bumps every where,really strong updraft at the top of the wave......never glassy and clean.....
when glassing the board we use a really slow mix as letting the resin soak into the Blank and create the bond is more important...even to the point I finish the guns with 80 grit.....and leave the cell structure open....
Great info Brutus, thanks again for sharing. I'm with you on the mid face turn bizzo, and the chop and updraft deal... reckon I have that wired design wise ( cheeky hey?) I'd like to get some boards to the Jaws arena, I don't have the contacts but am keen as mustard. Length depends on design as well, my boards ride shorter than the length suggests
...even to the point I finish the guns with 80 grit.....and leave the cell structure open....
interesting. certainly true with timber. ie. the pores in the wood get clogged if you use too fine paper and oil doesn't penetrate as well.
were you at nazare brutus?
Roy whats a superfused blank ? Sounds like the 3d glass isnt any heavier . Mc australian waves arent as big either mostly so i agree to a certain extent but they sure not always cleaner becos that depends on your keen ness to hava go . Cow bommie with an offshore wind for example
Hi Caml,
Just the new era EPS type, a US blanks tradename. http://www.usblanks.com/catalog/about-our-catalog/foam-selection/ Australian blank makers probably make similar stuff under different names.
The 3d glass is heavy for a single layer of cloth but it seems not heavier than 3x 6oz. It looks like we'll have to add some more cloth for the heavier weights. I'm only calculating the weight at present though. The 3d glass has a coarse weave so will need more resin for fillercoat, that will beef up the weight a tad.
Ok roy thanks for the marvellous input . A bit of 4oz before filler coat perhaps . Will check link thanks
Superfused (left) and regular EPS:
Ok eps foam . One of the probs with the current big wave board is having to make the shape so thick so it paddles and catches the huge waves . The problem is now with such a thick board and rail the surfer faces the problem of having too thick a rail etc . I thought about eps foam which floats better thus you can have a thinner board which paddles as good . Of course nobody agreed with this becos apparently the feel of eps in big waves isnt good . But i think theres possibly a way to create a thinner shape with eps that also can feel good in big surf . Its against all odds but maybe its possible , any thoughts ?
Yeah I'm with you on the thickness. Any given board at a given weight won't have more buoyancy with lighter foam though, yes if the board is lighter.
There is a way, it's called parallel profile which I've been doing since 1994. For example 10'6" by 22" by 3 & 1/8" at 100 litres, and that's with a very narrow tail at about 7 inch at the 12" mark too.
Caml, here's my 2 bobs worth.
I played with EPS 15yrs back making thinner guns for West Oz waves. I stopped at 8'6" cause I figured it wasn't worth wasting my cash on going bigger.
What EPS has is the "cork" factor, which is great in smaller boards/waves, but in guns has one big draw back, lightness. Which as you know is the kiss of death when trying to get into and down a face of a wave that is creating it's own weather system...can anyone say death trip over the falls, haha.
The Sunova's were made with a standard (for Sunova's guns anyway) double 6oz top and bottom, they were coming in ridiculesly light. So I went overkill to gain weight, like 6x 6oz top and bottom with big 13oz rail laps, etc. The weight came up to where it was good/equivilent to a similar dimension poly, but the boards lost that cork that gave the paddle advantage over a poly of similar dimension.
All in all the extra weight needed cancelled out the hoped for advantages of the EPS when shaping a thinner board..
Let's just say that was a costly experimant on my side that had no real benefit in board performance.
I did have the option of going a bit wider but pulling in the tail with some hip to make turning easier with that extra width, but by that stage I was done with spending so much cash on boards that weren't living up to expectation. But back then the trend of going wider and getting more foam under the chest wasn't much in vogue, so maybe EPS is worth a revisit.
As I've been saying for years the supposed 'corkiness' of eps is only due to lighter weight,
There is an advantage to using lightweight foam with more glass to achieve the same weight, i.e strength... since the material is applied where it is most useful.
One thing was certain about the eps boards I had made with a lot of glass, they were stronger than anything else out there but that kinda goes with the territory of the construction method anyway. Even the lightweight boards were stronger than most, even with the stringerless construction.
Now with the computer shapes being able to be measured in litres with the design program is there a way to measure existing surfboards for their litres capacity ?
Water tank - water displacement. ? Roy ?
Mike hunt, I look at sites like surftech/tuflite or FireWire which show volumes for all their boards. With so many different models on there each available sometimes at 1inch increments, you can usually find something very close.
Gravelle knows some formula he can work out the litres really accurate and hes a handshaper . Not sure where he got it from but he was happy about it working good .
Simon Anderson instagram has a pic of Big Ben Wilkinson and his new 11'2 for jaws.
Why is the 6 inches so common on big wave guns? Eg, 8'6" or 9'6" or 10'6"?
Why not 9'4" or 9'8"?
You just seem to hear those measurements a lot.
Udo who shaped it simon ? Thruster ? Goofy ft you can have whatever length u want . Increments is a key word
Caml, dont know who shaped it ...don't recognize the decal ?
very big stringer.
EDIT: Roger Hinds shaped Bens board.
Yeah I realise you can have whatever you want camel.
Just seems to be a common preference in big wave guns
goofy ,
This is a presumption , but the further someone goes from their short board the bigger the incremental steps they take .
Generally speaking in 6 ft boards most will step up 2 inches , and if someone tends to ride their general board at the lower scale of the 6ft range ( ie 6'0, 6,'1 etc ) , so anything over a foot bigger than their standard then people start to do 3 or 4 inch increments . In the 8 ft range , it could be 5 inch increments , And once you go over 9 Ft , most people are looking at well rounded increments of 6 inches ....
This isn't accurate or a science as i'm trying to give a pattern of behaviour , i reckon its a subliminal thing and generally speaking people like to stick to certain numbers , call it superstition or whatever . When you get up to those lengths 1-2 inches aren't going to be noticable from each other ....
People start to like the verbal sound of a measurement and that governs where they start and since people get comfiortable with it , then it sets a precedent . It May even come down to people with OCD and either liking odds or even numbers . It Would be interesting to see peoples patterns in their Quivers . Perhaps we should start a thread and everyone can list all the various lengths of boards that they can remember owning . And if they were custom and they actually chose the length / dimensions themselves .
Cool south yeah if you can only afford or transit your big wave quiver then you have to divide it into a quiver u could choose 11"6, 10"6, 9"6 . U need increments or their purposes get overlapped . 10"0 length sounds good to me . Then a step up is half ft longer for the big gun also thats adaptation to things like board bag lenths ie 10"6 or 9"6 is what creatures stock length covers are . If you have the luxury of having say a 10"0 , 10"6 , 11"0. Its increments and theirs many reasons why its a cool question tho
From what I gather sometimes it is getting the right curve out of the available blank that determines the length of a board, I've made about a dozen covers for 10'8"s cause that's the biggest the shaper can get out of an Australian blank with the curve he wants.
Brutus would know more about whether this is the case or not, my knowledge is secondhand.
Charge more Crustt when bigger;)
otherwise you are under cutting yourself... More material, more stitching, more sewing, more pattern making more time........ Up the price bro.
I know all of this, my wife is a costumier, thats why I say to her, charge more for FAT people..
I'm not saying FAT people surf big boards but fit slim fucks surf big waves....They need big board bags;)
Crust sorry to forget you make custom ! But yes indeed so . 10"8 & 10"0 are the size that are readily avail here oz.
What are ya drinking welly
Yep Shaunio,
You know what I drink,
Same as when we shared under that horrible skankie bridge..
You love it too;)
All those Vodka, lemons and Mineral water and you still found the thou$ stitched in the the sleeping bag, you DOG....
Thanks welly, everyone likes dogs ;-)
Yes that is true.
I do hear them;)
I mean you.
I've lost it for sure.????
Uppy help me out mate;)
Not Sheepio .....!
He's a dog...?
He always out weighs the surf reports on the SE QLD coast
Anyone had any experiences flying with 10'6s? How do the pros do it? Qantas has a max length of 9'. I've flown with 9'6s but always feel like i'm pushing it and could easily not get my board accepted.
Tom Carrroll instagram : pic of a 1990 Rawson single fin .
Surfline: massive Mavericks, a pic of Jamie Mitchell holding the rear half of a 9'10"gun.....look at that fence paling stringer ...
Jamie commented ....I got 4 waves today and broke 3 boards !
Very solid stringer!
Hardly surprising that it broke, stringers are of limited use.
Recent big wave footage only confirms what I've been saying about the big wave gun design flaws... poor control especially when trying to turn on the face.
'Hardly surprising that it broke, stringers are of limited use.
Recent big wave footage only confirms what I've been saying about the big wave gun design flaws... poor control especially when trying to turn on the face.'
As I've mentioned, I was nicknamed 'The Truth' by non other than that Merryweather board riding champ, and as I've instigated elsewhere amongst the swillnut club, xmas is a time of Truth, a time of 'families' being bonded in and by Truth. Great to see I've started something new. However Roy perhaps a few words of caution. Sometimes 'the family' has some... perhaps we could say difficulties with the the Truth... and situations can get a bit tense and out of hand during the chrissie celebrations. I suggest by all means, allow the grog to flow amply, allow the dollops of nicco and fake smoke to plume, allow the sacks and bags of 'truth' serums and assorted chemicals and pills to work their 'magic', but maybe rather than let the Truth pour forth freely, perhaps just a few drops of Truth at a time... during these bonding 'family' 'sessions'. Lest the 'family' be overwhelmed by the Truth at these chrissie celebrationary, bonding, yet delicate times. Certainly through the haze of grog, nicco, plumes and 'truth' serums, raise and highlight the Truth of the obviously poor and inadequate water crafts situation, but I wouldn't bring up the legs. The poor, inadequate legs (thank God for boardies!). Surfees get 'funny' about the legs. No, just a few drops at a time... rather than decking the halls with boughs of holly, perhaps just a few well placed spriggs at a time. The 'family' can be a bit 'funny' about these things... the Truth that is.
And should things get a bit tense, a bit terse, during this chrissie swillnut 'family' bonding, there's always the old standby... 'would anyone like a mince pie!!! They're organic!!!'
'The Truth' is an admirable handle and is probably unusual as an Aussie nickname.
Thanks for the heads up, we glide through the season with neurons intact since we don't partake of the dreaded solvents and other stuff mentioned. Like Jean Claude Killy I am a very boring fellow by choice and glide facing forwards, mostly.
I'll try to take the possible frayed emotions amongst the swellnet crew into account by using the opportunity to put the boot in further ;)
Blanks await, a couple of 9'5"s to kick off the gun making programme.
righto looking at the video of Mavericks there was an SUP there out the top of the lineup. SUPs and these big wave guns are getting very close to similar volume dimensions these days by the look of it (SUPs coming down, Guns going up in length & vol). It begs the question:
1) Can you balance on a big wave paddleboard without any momentum (ie: like an SUP does out the back)
2) Can the SUPs paddle into a wave earlier than if you were to arm-paddle in?
As far as paddling goes yocal, a paddle would have to have the same area if not more than two hands and a hell of alot more leverage with a paddle.
i think sups are wider by 5 inches or more & i dont think you can sup on a gun .they are thicker by an inch too .
G'day Camel, how'd that 9'6 Webster (the shark stripe one) go? OK? Or didn't like it? Reasons why, either way? Cheers.
excellent board shabboons. picks up waves good & really goes fast & speeds around sections powerfully . feels great taking off in down the line wave . never surfed cloudbreak with it but thats wat its made for , big CB .
@Brutus and Roy, when talking sweet spot or fulcrom, what ya really talking about is centre of gravity (CoG)
I've had a few rambling thoughts about boards and CoG...I'm no shaper, (hung out in a few board factories though) but have played in different fields where fixed and shifting CoG is of utmost importance.
First of all to take my thoughts into perspective, one must forget the board has a fixed CoG. The CoG changes location due to board speed, fluid dynamics and surfer position.
Watching the vid of that latest Mavericks session, what is apparent is while taking off and dropping in, the boards CoG appears to be fine. But when coming off the bottom the CoG moves forward with increase in speed and increased water displacement under the nose, this is apparent by the "hopping" of the boards in the bottom turn. However, the surfer doesn't have time for this fine adjustment to be made, with the consequence of a loss in speed. But when the bottom turn is complete the CoG moves back again and the hopping ceases - due to changes in the fluid dynamics of different rail settings.
I've seen Roy's vids with the highly rockered boards where the surfer just hovers around the CoG without having to adjust weight too much to maintaion CoG, but I reserve my judgment on the effectiveness of that style board in waves like Mavericks, especially taking that drop. Might be good off the bottom though.
Getting to my point, remember those snow skis that were super short (as a alternative to long downhill skis), but had a lead shot/oil filled chamber? The faster the ski went, the further the lead shot moved forward, moving the CoG forward to compensate for increase in speed and stopping any speed induced hop that would happen if the CoG remained to the rear. The shortness allowed great turning characteristics compared to long skis.
How would this type of setup work in a board? Would the reaction time of the lead shot movement be too slow? Or tuned oil viscosity allow for fast movement of lead shot?
Ocean race speed boats have trim tabs to achvieve the same objective. Faster the boat goes, the trim tabs get a bit more "reverse tail rocker" as such, pushing the nose down effectively moving the CoG forward.
That's what the flex tail is supposed to do too, isn't it?
Told ya, the ramblings of a hack.
On the subject of stringers, anyone thought of using carbonised plastic, I beam style. Good quality carbon plastic is almost indestructable...not talking that cheap chinese shit that has been recycled 20 times over.
Take a look at the blade grips on this RC helicopter - carbonised plastic. I drove the identical model into concrete, inverted directly onto the blade grips doing about 220km/h. The heli was totaled but the blade grips were fine.
Hi TGF, no it's not the COG it's the high pressure zone just behind the leading edge of the wetted surface area which is the fulcrum, of course the position of this zone repends partly upon the position of the rider and thus the position of the COG but it's not the COG per se.
The COG only changes with rider position, the other changes are due to pressure under the hull.
The takeoffs also appear to be a major issue from what I've seen.
The 'highly rockered' aspect is an optical illusion in most cases, partly due to the parallel profile ( tapered profiles hide rocker visually).
We'll see...
Thanks for the clarity there Roy. Told ya, just some rambling thoughts of a hack;-)
Well, I think that your observations are on the right track.
Hi TG...we actually tried to do this with PVC tubes inside the board with rolling buck shot to increase the forward inertia....what we found was it was too slow,in fact that's why we went to pure carbon 160 g with laminated stringers to decrease the flex and torque...but add more Pop/Memor to the flex and tortion...this was on tow bds which show you only need about 1m20 of rail to ride the wave ...the rest is for paddling and when you go to turn a 10 6 at the bottom of the wave...its all about the balance the inertia the angle of your takeoff.....the fin set up and flex......as the bds goes down the face if there is not some flex....the bd is too rigid and just bounces.........does not absorb any of the vibrations and......here comes the wipeout.
the problem with a skin on a board that is too stuff , ie; Roys idea about 3 D glass could make the bd too stiff ( SurfTech) and thats where the stringer comes in as a flexible spine.....in a sense a shock absorber...
Hi Brutus,
I doubt that any 3 to 4 inch thick gun is going to flex significantly unless glassed ridiculously lightly. I'd like to see a land test of flex on a board or two.
Also, I don't think that flex is necessary nor does it help dramatically when hitting chop amd lumps at speed... the board is going to buck anyway. I invented the parallel profile in '94 specifically to get flex and have made many super flexible boards in the 10 to 13 foot range. For example land tests where 5 to 6 inches of flex can be achieved with the pressure of one hand. The flex feels nice in the water and can contribute to drive but the more rigid boards work just as well. The handling issues which I see are due to board shape.
Re. 3d glass it's increased rigidity prevents skin buckling but doesn't reduce flex, in fact 3d glassed boards it should have slightly more flex than boards glassed with the same weight of glass conventionally. The internal pillars which improve resistance to sking buckling and denting all run in rows across the board so won't affect skin compression and stretching under tension.
Rolling weights will just delay pitch response and could set up strange oscillations, I'm not surprised that they didn't feel good.
Rail length wise current passle in designs change the wetted rail length radically during the ride, best to keep the wetted rail length changes to a smaller range I think.
Cut a 9'5" pintail gun out today from a US blank, my first non parallel profile board ever, it certainly looks weird to see the 3.5" thickness in the middle, but the buoyancy should be a boon.
Roy some pics please of the 9'5' .
Hi Udo, starting at the smaller end of the scale, in length at least. I'm doing a pair of 9'5"s the next one will be a different model with a more extreme pin. Keeping the width up too.
http://www.roystuart.biz/2014/12/old-faithfull-16-021-pintailed-gun.html
hi Roy..interesting comment s as always .......
we always check to see what type of flex is in the finished bd b laying the board deck down and then pushing with foot to see what and if there is any flex......
the whole point in using the surf tech bds as an example ...is everone knows the are too stiff because of the use of a very rigid skin which is multiple layers sandwiching "a Klegicell " product......supa high density foam......my point is that there is a need for flex and tortion in the bd. I am not sure how big a bds you have actually ridden in waves over 15 ' and in what conditions ??
what resin are you using to glass ya 3D glass..epox or polyester , as there is difference in how far they can be flexed before the break?
How much flex do you get?
I dunno I think that they are just too light... weight has a great dampening effect too, and if the board is balanced re. fulcrum etc all is good, I still reckon that shape is causing the problems.
OK I always quote wave height as face height in feet rather than the usual rather vague method, it's more scientific. I've ridden 11'8" to 12 footers countless times at 18 to 24 feet, in all sorts of conditions so I've had to negotiate big lumps and chop at 30+mph as a matter of course. I've also ridden a 70 pound 13'9" in waves up to 18 feet, speed is a factor rather than just wave height too, at least as far as the hydrodynamics go. When it starts to get close to 2 wave hold downs I'm out of there, and have also been into smaller waves in recent years as I'm supervising a bunch of kids in the water. Plus I'm 54 now lol. Not in your league re. wave size but know my onions I reckon.
Epoxy. I'd probably have to drive my 6000kg bus over one to get a break, can't bring myself to do it. Going thick means forgetting about flex but going for weight, I like heavy 25 pounds is a featherlight, 30 plus starts to get good, up to 70 pounds is nice but the benefits at that weight come with one or two drawbacks. I think that board weight to total board and rider weight ratios are useful. My max has been 29% .
For flex in longboard guns I go down to 2 inches thick up to 12' to 13' in length.
Hi Roy..even on a 10 6 x 22 x 4" there is considerable flex still left...how much no-one knows but there are different flex's ....eg: soggy flex >> great flex.......which is like fins, that flex at the top of the fin but no flex in the bottom 2/3rds....
I am still interested about your thoughts on flex and Torque/tortion in a bd....especially what goes on in the board in the water with all the lift and drive from the fins?
Dismissing the Surf Tech example as just too lite and that the shapes might be the problem......the shapes they have are from all the best shapers on the world who did ST models based on their best performing bds.....but the bds just did not go in bumpy even offshore waves at all as there was very little feeling in the bds....not too lite.....just way too rigid!!
The boards we are talking about here are for at least double in height to what you have been riding...the waves that are now being paddled are another level from what we have paddled and in conditions where there is always bumps,chop etc.......that's why for eg Gary Linden and a lot of gus like a Balsa core as there is an intrinsic feel and inertia from a balsa bd...in fact the core becomes one big stringer.....expensive but the work great......
Noah Johnson who is 135lbs...rides a 22.5 lbs board and finds the weight perfect for Jaws......going on your formula what should Noah J be riding??
That's interesting, there wouldn't be much flex with those dims in wood, even with balsa. I've probably been spoilt riding wood all the time as even if the board is stiff it has a harmonic resonance which probably helps with dampening etc.
I get that it's hard to know how much flex deflection there is in the water, but a land test is easy to do, and it does relate although obviously it's much less when riding a wave.
Well, I get flex fore and aft by going long and thin, there doesn't seem to be a lot of twisting flex due to the fins but it must be there. On longer boards my fins operate at low pressure and low angles of attack most of the time too. They are big fins and do generate a fair amount of lift, and with thin narrow tails there's going to be movement in every direction. Presumably some twist is a good thing?
Ok, the surftechs were lighter though?
The whole flex thing isn't what it's advertised to be. Back in '94 when I came up with the parallel profile for flex I thought it was about the 'load up during turns by increasing rocker and release the energy coming out of turns' model. The flex felt great but wasn't as simple as expected. I'm not saying that the standard flex theory doesn't ever happen, but further analysis has shown that it's a lot more complex, and particularly in the case of shortboards the boards don't necessarily even bend in the direction expected. For example in a land test we have the board suspended at the ends and force applied in between. That's not the case in the water, due to pressure distribution on the hull... most of the pressure is just behind the leading edge of the wetted surface area, and it tapers off rapidly towards the tail. Thus there's really only one fulcrum, and with one fulcrum the standard flex model 'aint going to happen. This can be changed somewhat via horizontal fin area ( for example canted side fins, we use tunnel fins for horizontal area) as this increases the force at the tail and provides another fulcrum, or can do. Even so the lever arm in front of and behind the force applied by the surfer is too short to get significant flex, especially if the feet are not close together. If the feet are far apart the board could even bend upwards in the middle between the feet.
Another factor is the part of the board which is not in the water. A significant amount of free hanging nose will change the whole equation as it sets up its own frequency . I like this but it's not in flex 101. I notice it because some of my boards are very long, thin, and heavy with pretty substantial nose weight.
So the question remains 'why does flex work?'. I think that it's more to do with harmonic resonance. The simple flex and return cycle hitting chop is probably way too short to be in sync with pumping motions from the rider or chop, and it will naturally have a certain time cycle at any given moment depending on speed and rider position, so it would be a fluke if it coincided with chops and bumps. It still seems to help though. I think that it is partly due to the vibrations of a higher frequency being passed through to the feet through resonance. Have you seen how swords ( particularly thin European swords) have harmonic nodes? it's kind of like that. Where the harmonic nodes are , there are sweet spots on the blade, and they change according to where the hands are on the grip. I've tested some of my boards and when struck the vibration waves can be seen travelling up and down the board, usually there are at least two waves of different frequencies. In the water this translates to the board quivering as it travels over surface bumps. It feels amazing and gives excellent feedback to the rider, on a subconscious level.
Re. the 'best shapers in the world' factor, I'm greatly impressed by their work with shortboards, but not so much when it comes to longboards and long guns.
Yep that's true... and double the height means 4 times the power plus an additional factor due to the usual longer swell period. From a design point of view the relevant factor is surfboard speed though rather than wave height. Certainly speeds tend to be higher on bigger waves but not in proportion to the power of the wave. I know what it's like to hit big lumps at speed, but not with overhanging Jaws or Mavericks!
Yeah, I cut my boardbuilding teeth on balsa and it's a lovely material. It has a softer flex than paulownia. Used it solid and chambered on boards from 7' to 12' glassed with a single layer of 6oz.
I still don't think that there's going to be much flex of the 'longbow flex and return' type with balsa at the dims mentioned. I got a fair bit at 2 inches thick by 12' long, and some at 1.5" thick by 7' but it diminishes rapidly as the thickness to length ratio declines.
Let's see... the 29% and 70 pounds which I quoted is at the extreme upper weight range for my taste at my body weight of 165 to 175 pounds. I rode DOH on the 70 pounders and the advantage in strong offshores is incredible but it can be a tad scary dropping in and/or pulling in, plus it's a bitch going back up the beach toting the beasts afterwards. An interesting aspect of heavier board weights is not only that it lowers the centre of gravity but also that it lowers the centre of effort in terms of gravitational force, as well as inertia... so when hitting chop the board won't slow down and the rider is less likely to tip forward as his greater mass keeps on trucking while the board stops.This makes for a cruise in ragged waves.
For choice on boards 10 t0 12 feet at my weight I go 25 to 55 pounds, for Noah's weight that would be 20 to 43 pounds and 13% to 24% ( board weight to combined board and rider weight). A pretty big range of weight. It does depend upon shape though... tail ridden boards have to be lighter as they are inherently unbalanced and this can get out of hand if the weight is high. Hence some reporting that weight is too much at 35 pounds plus ( from memory) So, for the advantages of the heavier weights to be gained without problems the boards need to have a more central riding psoition and a more stable fulcrum.
.
What Brutus is saying there about flex reminds me of the last fishing boat I had, a 15' Polycraft. They are made of rotomoulded polyethylene which gives them a controlled amount of flex, making them much more forgiving to ride in than equivalent length aluminium tinny which just bang and break your back.
Mine was a centre console, so you stand behind the wheel to drive. In chop that thing would absolutely fly if you just bend the knees a bit and allow the hull to follow the surface. A strange feeling at first with the hull flexing underfoot absorbing all the chop, no tinny could ever keep up with me although they are heavier which also seemed to help. Anyway just rambling, interesting dynamics.
interesting. Maybe the 'hull flex' theory is an underlying reason why the tuflites are fucking terrible to ride in all conditions except 2ft clean pointbreaks.
That's one thing That I loved about some epoxies. That full on stiffness. No loss of power. True though, they react to everything instantly. My friends hated them. But they hated squats and deadlifts too. More to the point they were useless at them. They had no real legs, or glutes. Downhill alpine skiers have the ultimate shock absorbers, and force producers. Truly athletic and powerfull glutes and legs. Thank God for boardies!!!
Yeah and they don't have to be too light either.
Yeh, that lightness thing went crazy for a while. Way overboard. Especially on the east coast of US. Surfers literally blowin' away. Momentumless. Although I feel it was/is driven by the smallish size of many pro surfers. The worry about being able to drive heavier boards.
A huge, common problem, yet so obvious and basic, is when shapers just transfer their PU shapes to the epoxy/styrene style boards, which have totally different characteristics and properties. I still see it. Guys take in their favourite PU board and get a copy done, thinking just more flotation, strength and lightness will be awesome. But, obviously the only result will be a completely different performing and feeling board. The transfer of power thing I relate to GP cars, although a bit simplistic - stiff/hard/direct and the family jalopy - spongy and indirect. Flex can be like having worn, sloppy engine mounts. Although the slop can be very forgiving and conceal many things.
Here's the 9'5"
http://www.roystuart.biz/2014/12/old-faithfull-16-021-pintailed-gun.html
Get on it camel.
yes sir keen to ride . roy what is parallel profile ? im wondering becos the alaia is so good to ride and its outline is parallel . very fast especially ..
Hi Caml,
Parallel profile is when the board has the same thickness from nose to tail, it gives the
thinnest board for a given volume, and the most flex. I usually do it with a constant rail section too, so the rail is the same shape everywhere. The pair I'm, doing at present are tapered in profile though as I picked up a couple of standard blanks
Hi Roy
"most Flex" means what exactly??
ok got ya . thats somethin ive never tried but my seaglass alaia is a little bit like that in profile too but not excactly . interesting thanks for reply . i like epoxy resins it must combine with 3d cloth nicely . small stringer more glass has been working good for me for while but i was reading gary linden was praising balsa guns stiffness in big waves . everything can work always somthin new
how much does individual rider preference play into this 'perfect board'
In my limited(none- DOH max so far) big wave experience i found that what worked for me was what I was most comfortable and confident with eg I could trust what was under my feet.
translate that to huge slabs, and are guys simply looking for a familiar board that performs well, or a real change in board that will be better suited to conditions
Righttt that's an extreme pintail and a very rounded nose. Take a brave man to test that out in waves of consequence
It takes a brave man to go out in 'waves of consequence' on any board.
Brutus, GMac still involved with Mercedes Benz developing tow boards, varial foam blanks and 100% portugese cork one ,Amorin cork composites.
Article on : surfers village.
Hi Udo...had a full rundown of GMacs Mercedes bds...from RCJ ,supa heavy 22-25 lbs....older hull shape......but still uses lead buckshot to weight the bds which is great for doing the descent,bottom turn and make it to the channel.....but a can't do a top turn.....that's why I have just tried to do a heavier model where you can regulate the weight and dial in whats needed for Nazare or...??
As for the cork...makes no sense to me......other than dialing up green cred?
Not sure of the length [poss 9'6"] hayden shapes have made a board for big Ben Wilko with a very different outline to what seems to be the norm ,a 1970s squaretail planshape ?
pic on surfers village.
Sunny Garcia comments on his insta page..heading home for the Eddie comp...and Hawaiin Airlines refuse to carry my favorite 10'6".
Sunny wants to quit whinging and treat them like Merpati.... a discrete donation palmed off to the counter staff usually does the trick. No mess , no fuss. Everyone's happy.
blowin...its the USA ,bribes don't quite work like 3rd world countries....but Sunny's plight is a real one ....most US airlines charge $100 - $200 for normal size bds....and for guns it can be up to $500 a board.......
and yeah UDO...will be interesting to see how wilkos bds go with that very straight planshape around the fins...hope it doesn't track?
Brutus, you're more than likely right, but does anyone try ? Corruption , for better or worse , is a universal language.
$500 for a gun ? Sweet Jesus.
Concave? Littlewood and sos boards in Maui? Does this help the guns ride a little more comfortable higher up the wave? Where are the concaves placed?
Roy Stuart, Roy can you tell us a bit about your new 9'5" EPS 3D glassed gun.
Just passing through this morning so will have to be brief. There are a couple of pictures of the 16-021 here: http://www.roystuart.biz/2015/01/the-gun-project-resin-tint-on-16-series...
The 3D glass is difficult to use but with about 9 times the strength in compression compared with 4x 6oz should be worth the extra work.
Hi Roy....how much nose lift do you have in the board........and what are the dimensions??
9'5" by 24" by 3.5" nose lift I'll have to check, but nothing unusual.
Weight is a bit lighter than expected so far.
its taking ages to load up these 5 page thread
roy the orange tint board looks radical ! rails sound interesting . ive always wondered what the boogyboard " vacuum '" rail would work like on a surfboard . yours are round underside or what ? chines are sick too ! amazing work , please keep us posted
Thanks Caml I'll definitely keep you posted. the rails are a circular section ( 3/8ths of a circle to be exact) with a radius of 21mm, no tucked edge anywhere and a light concave. Chines are at 45 degrees. can't wait to get her in the water.
What I'm doing with this board is testing the thickness, and the 3d glass. At only 9'5" it's not intended for the upper limits of wave size... for that we'll be going much longer and will need to have thickness of 3" plus. For huge waves design is driven firstly by wave catching ability, otherwise much smaller boards could be used.
I've always liked thin longboards so need to know how the increased thickness feels, and whether or not it affects the handling too much. So, I've used a shape which I know well and dialled the volume way up.
The next sizes up will be in the mid ten and eleven foot range, probably an inch narrower at 23".
hi Roy so what was the total rocker...nose and tail....no tucked under edges......so you do have edges??
Brutus, there's 5 inches in the nose with 3 & 3/8" in the tail.
Interesting Roy that you only use 31/2" of Nose lift..is this measured from the center or the widest point?
Hi Brutus my reply was poorly written 3.5" is the thickness, will check nose rocker measurement.
we should start a new thread . this ones taking ages to load up .
OK Caml over to you.......a board with such low rocker...really needs to be tested as the entry into the wave is a very low entry......nearly 2 " less than I use in a gun and I use one of the lowest nose rockers in Hawaii.........
Forgot to answer re. tucked edge, there's no edge anywhere.
Nose rocker can't be evaluated without taking tail rocker, tail shape and length into account. The difference is really only the amount of nose flip, more is useful for preventing nosing into chop on the take off but that's about it... can easily be added if necessary too.
I measure rocker from the wide point, which is at 50/50 in this case
Thanks for commenting Brutus, much appreciated.
Lol Randy Rarick said "we don't need this much rocker here in Hawaii"... referring to the 7 inches of nose rocker on my 13 foot gun... stone the crows some people are dense.
What he meant was' We don't want your stuff in Hawaii closed shop bro'
Roy so whats the formula for your bottom shape/rocker....do you use numbers or just go off "gut" feel??
Hi Brutus,
I use numbers and previous experience. The planshapes which I use are forgiving of rocker variations, so I use a wide range of rockers rather than small refinements.
Extrapolation and interpolation of curves means that the rocker radii are controlled, this gives a different result when changing the length of the board than is often the case when eyeballing the shape. Eyeballing tends to result in rockers which are much flatter as board length increases and more curved when lrngth decreases.
For example a 7 inch rocker ( assuming a circular arc rocker for the moment) on a 12 foot board gives only 4 inches at 10'6". Looking at the two boards it looks like the 10-6 is flat and the 12 footer is highly rockered. Of course I do sometimes use lower radius or flatter curves on longer boards but using extrapolation as a baseline means that I know what I'm doing to the radius.
The displacement tailed pintail which I often use allows a flatter nose rocker as the tail can be sunk ( this happens automatically) and the associated planshape curve means that the nose is raised whenever the board rolls on to the rail. having said that I often dose up the nose rocker anyway.
What I'm using on the current board is middle of the road I think. It's interesting that 7 inches of nose rocker is standard or even on the low side for guns. I've often been criticised for using too much nose rocker but I think that it's because people are used to longboard rockers which are limited by nose riding.
My boards are almost always of the gun type in terms of general shape philosophy even when made as all rounders or small wave boards. I see 'gun' as a board type which can be for waves of any size ( big game and small game).
Re a 'formula' I tend to use circular arc tail rockers i.e. no tail flip and circular arc ( i.e. constant) or decelerating (typically elliptical) nose rockers, which isn't really unusual in the general sense. Rocker apex, if there is one, is always at the wide point which again isn't unusual.
Recently a surfermag forum member superimposed the rocker of my 13'9" Dragon board on to a flat old school Phil Edwards longboard blank rocker and they were almost identical... the Dragon has 7 inches nose and tail and has been called a banana but in reality it's a large radius curve i.e. flattish... explaining this to most people is a hopeless task. My parallel profile ( not used on the current board) also makes rocker look greater than it is as the deck curve is the same as the bottom curve.
OK Roy got the formula...but what are the actual rocker numbers on the 9 5 ya shaped.....interested to see where it fits in with the contemporary guns that are currently being used?
no one is using nose flip anymore......everybody has actually lowered the tip of the bd and increased the thickness........
Yes I hear you Brutus and I'd be most interested to compare numbers. Most of the boards I've seen ( for example camel's board shown earlier in this thread have nose flip though, by which I mean a nose rocker which increases towards the nose. It's all a matter of degree I suppose.
I've been using circular arc rockers ( which have no nose flip by definition) for a long time, (with very thick noses too) and am very much in favour of them, but there's a small amount of increase in rocker towards the nose on the current board, not sure if you would classify it as flip or not.
Earlier you were saying that my nose rocker at 5" on a 9-5 is at least 2 inches lower than normal, and the nose is also thick, so maybe not so different from the lowered thicker noses you describe?
I think my tail rocker might be a tad too much at 3.75" on a 9'6"what do you think?
hey Roy..check out the barrel of Paige's Jaws wave and watch when she's just about to come out of the barrel....the bds is so forgiving 2' from the nose ,looks like a great entry rocker as when the wave has a blip up the face the bd just rides thru it....
point is the entry rocker is so important ..........where on takeoffs the first part of the bd to hit the water and how it feeds in from there is critical....
I think your tail rocker seem fine its just the all important entry line.....?
I'll post a rocker shot today. The reaction of the nose depends so much on the tail though... as Rusty said "a quarter inch of tail rocker is worth two inches of nose rocker' and with my shapes the tail rocker is effectively variable as the tail sinks under load... nose rocker is much more critical with wider tails since they can't sink.
You mention the entry at two feet back... no nose flip back there that's for sure.
Brutus, Noahs 2 new blue Rhinos .......absolutely beautiful.
Pictures Udo?
Maurice Cole instagram
Nearly ready for the fin box and leash plug, weight is 11kg (24.25 pounds) so should finish up at 11.5kg (25.4 pounds) which is just what I'm after.
I'm frothing!
:)
Nose flip has not been in Hawaiian guns for maybe 10 years.......interested to see the profile of the 9 5 bd...
Hi Brutus, that depends upon how one defines 'nose flip' I'm certainly seeing the rocker radius increasing at the nose on all the guns I've looked at.
Here's the rocker
The planshape will look racier at 10-6 and a tad narrower:
so Roy what are the numbers on the nose and tail rocker.....??
a lot of guns that I have seen in Australia have the nose flip...old design.......but can promise you that in Hawaii/SoCal.........this has been rectified years ago.....as the flip is just an aesthetic so you think you have more nose lift and won't pearl....
Hi Brutus,
Thanks for your reply. Rocker numbers are 5" in the nose and 3.25" in the tail.
I'm aware of the lowered nose rocker trend which you are talking about, but I think that we are using different definitions of nose flip. What I see is less nose flip but it is still there.
I define nose flip as a nose rocker which increases towards the nose, and all the guns I've seen have this to some degree.
Here's a picture showing Eddie Aikau contest boards from 2013, as can be seen none of them have perfectly even circular arc rockers, they all have some 'flip' although not the radical flip we used to see.
hey Roy...sounds low rocker in the nose...but only surfing and testing it will work......who are you going to get to test it???
Hi Brutus, we've been riding this shape since '94 so I have a pretty good idea how they go, Caml has volunteered it's just a matter of hooking him up.
yeah Roy..lets get this bd tested ....could be some very interesting feedback...but what about the logistics of getting Caml to ride it....he need to go to you...or you to him??
Hi Brutus, we'll be making a few shapes on this general theme and at different lengths, it depends firstly on what Caml would like to do.
NC or TC @ german bank ?
Roy, she's all finished ready to test ride....
Roy i like the rocker profile in the pic . Looking forward to hear if it works . My flat nose rockers going good lately . No plans to increase nose rocker also . Hope she goes good
Roy is the rocker of the board pictured 9"5 ) does it have the circular curve rocker or not ? It doesnt look like a circles curve but maybe the pic decieves the eye .
Hi Caml, the rocker on the 9'5" has some nose flip as you've noticed. The nose to tail circular arc rocker will appear when we get to 10-6 and upwards in length. The board will work fine, I just hope the thickness feels ok as I'm used to thinner boards. Board number two will be glassed this weekend.
More pics here:
http://www.roystuart.biz/2015/02/roys-rocker-formula-for-all-purpose-gun...
Next up the 66-021 #gunproject #3Dglass
Roy your information on the link is incredible . The stuff i understand . Thank you
Ok now how and where do you test it with who??
Cheers Caml,
I'm glad that the post made some sense!
Brutus,
There will be an ongoing stream of boards on this theme being made,at least 6 variations in shape at 5 or 6 lengths and several width variations, so it's not just a matter of who will test 'the board'.
The boards will be coming out faster production wise soon too, as I'm going to take a break on the 3d glassing and use conventional cloth, after dealing with the current pink board above.
Caml has offered to do some testing, we can send boards airport to airport quite easily but if you know of a good freight carrier door to door or depot to depot for single boards I'd be most grateful to hear about it.
I'm going to be riding them too, and will try to crawl back up the wave size scale as much as I can so I'm in the loop regarding how they handle. These shapes are what I normally ride anyway and are designed to be good over a wide range of wave sizes.
Here's the blank profile for phase two: 11 footers on a slightly modified circular arc:
http://www.roystuart.biz/2015/03/gun-surfboard-blank-for-11-footer.html
Roy how did the 3d glassed boards feel for strength ? Will you use 3x 6 for the next one ? The rocker profile you just posted looks interesting . I think you maybe onto somthing there . Which end is nose btw ?
Hi Caml.
The 3d glass is extremely strong. I have enough of it for eight boards. I'll go for 3x10 oz on the third board and hopefully that will provide enough weight. The rocker and deck profile have the nose on the left, so a bit more thickness in the front half of the board. The 10oz will get them made a lot faster and with better overall finish, plus it should be strong.
Here's the 66 model today:
Looks like she'll paddle real good . It looks thick .is it 3.5 ?
Hi Caml,
Yes she'll certainly paddle well. The extreme pintails are often mocked by a certain class of jokers as paddleboards, and the flat deck with rail facet and added thickness only increase that appearance.
My approach is that i know that the design re. outline, rocker, rails and fins works very well. .. what I needed to do was dose up the volume so that paddling and wave catching is maximised for big waves. Rather than going up in volume incrementally I've gone for plenty to find out how the control when wave riding is affected by the thickness. Hence the 3.5" thickness which is moderate for a big wave gun these days but way thicker than what I'm used to. We can bring the thickness back down if needed.. . I'm all for thinner if possible and the extra board width and deck width carried out as far to the rail as possible give a lower maximum thickness for a given volume, so there will be some room to move on the thickness.
These 9'5"s will do very well thinner, even down to 2" thick while still catching waves well up to a certain size. They naturally like steep drops and can be pivoted and paddled in with just a few strokes on the right waves, just like a shortboard...so less thickness is fine but for really fast moving big waves we'll need the extra paddle power.... if we can get it via say 2.75" then so much the better... will have to see...
My 10'6" 'Earl has mega paddle power and wave catching at 2.75" which is one of the thickest of the wooden boards I've done, but she's 27" wide so going narrower by about 10% to 14% would need 3" to 3.25" thick for the same volume ( at 10'6").
That's not taking into account rider weight, just assuming 80ish kg.
I hope that the above makes sense.
Once at 10'6" to 11" the volume can be achieved with less thickness if desired, or the thickness can be kept the same and even more paddle power gained, so thickness tweaking will always be part of the game.
Hi Roy, this might sound like a dumb question but why do you need the last say 6-8 inches of tail on the board in the pic above? What would be the difference if you got rid of that? Cheers
Hi Goofyfoot,
It's a good question. If the tail were chopped the board would be a squaretail with the widepoint 2 or 4 inches behind the centre.
The extended tail balances the board and the ride, smoothing out turns and improving control . That's a big advantage.
Caml, I bet ya fizzing mate.
Wow what a brd and design to ride.
I've been following this thread for awhile, I hope RS gives you something and himself to work with!
Looking forward to the development;)
Thanks for the good vibes....
Just wait until you see the 11 footers coming up next! :)
Hi Roy, just wondering, back foot placement looks to be 2.5 -3ft? from the tail, is this where the fin/fins are? cheers
Back foot placement is more like 3 to 4 feet from the tail, the fin is 12 to 18 inches up from the tail., so riding with the back foot over the fin isn't the way to go.
Here's the first 11 footer, the 64A-017. It's 11' by 23" by 2.75", with 6 inches of rocker nose and tail on a slightly modified circular arc rocker. Widepoint is 13" forward of centre.
From 14/03/15 on the orange 9-6:
Ok I got some head high (on the sets) 17 second period cyclone Pam waves this saturday.
The banks were crap, and there was a cross swell and light onshore. I also had a fever from an infection so felt sub par. Anyway here are the first impressions:
1) The board is bright, can be seen miles away.
2) Paddling is epic, it takes little effort to keep a high paddle speed up and digging in hard gets even more speed.
3) Wave catching capability is very good indeed.
4) Rolling under is adequate but not quite as good as a thinner longer board, the hand grip on the rails is ok but again not quite as good as a thinner board. Not really an issue for huge waves as they are not being rolled anyway, and workable for an all rounder.
5) Ride wise the board has no vices and does what it's ordered to do. Feels very 'loose' and free running, seems quite willing to get some good speed up. (9 inch spitfire felt very nice, definitely low drag and responsive. The thickness (3.5") felt ok after a few waves but seemed a bit thick at first.
Overall the board felt pretty short and will take a few sessions to adjust to. Keeping in mind that i haven't ridden a board down in the 9 foot range for about 10 years. Weight at 23 pounds feels good though on the light side, probably due to the shorter length and high buoyancy. As a board for very large waves I have no doubt that it will work but I don't see any reason to go so short.
So has caml or anyone had the chance to test this board out yet in solid surf?
Webster surfboards instagram,
Caml crankin a turn on a big quad.
Reno Abbiliera 12FT waimea gun, unused listed on U.K. ebay
What a weapon.
Epic TV - vid : Shane Dorian and his JC pray before use 10'6"
Jc pbu dorian new age model . Pray before use ! The reverse foil beak nose ! It makes the nose anti pearl
.
What about Glen Caseys new 8'8" gun .........shaped by George Greenough ?
Pic on Glens instagram.
Freeride know anything about this.....the rail profile ?
Yes glen just rode it one off , I know about it . Its been in countless articles recently . Rasta has been testing it
FFS it's basically the same concept which I've been using since 1994, who gives a fuck anyway, I'm just the garbage man, go George. I did say that they are fast and loose but wrong messenger so all I get is grief. Fing morons.
Roy georges board has a wide square tail and yours have narrow long tails so that is very different . Can you post some pics so we can see what u mean ?
My mistake Caml, am grumpy today.
Looked really nice bombie the other day caml..glassy as, calm..were you out?. You ever ride paul g rhino's? They look pretty impressive but thats as far as my big big wave knowledge goes
Did u see jeff smuckers footage barley was it tow in footage & were people paddling as well ? & it was only small too . Thats the only problem with doing a trip there , if u get the tow in team just when u were hoping to score !
No I didn't go there barley , stayed & surfed the local . Yeah grav does nice ones
This was paddle footage..probably 8-10ft hard to tell..just looked like plate glass clean..like oily..one wave was one,two paddles launch...looks like a good crew pushin it
OK that's good , was bigger than it looks tho
What are peoples current thoughts on thrusters use in big wave paddle spots DS, only ever surfing thrusters or twins I feel like I’d be more comfortable having my first big wave gun as a thruster? Anyone got any ideas of a good set of fcs 1 fins I should buy for it? Thinking about picking up a second hand gash 9”6. Or would you say that thrusters are dated and not as easy as a quad and I should be looking to buy a new quad setup. Let’s just say I’ll probably be taking off on the shoulder and going for straight trying to figure out a board at this length than taking off under it more and gunning for the barrel on my first few surfs. Never ridden a big wave board over 7”2.