Simon Anderson on 3 fins versus 4
Simon Anderson's name is forever linked to the Thruster, as you would expect, he invented the damn thing. Yet Simon is often seen sporting a quad under his arm and his range of boards also includes a few quad combo models. So does he feel conflicted as new ideas encroach upon his time-tested Thruster?
In a recent conversation blindboy asked Simon this question and more.
Swellnet: I've been looking at your boards and you are doing a mixture of thrusters, combos and quads. What sort of percentage of each are you doing?
Simon Anderson: Good question. I wouldn't know exactly, I'm not actually doing a quad on its own but I am doing a few combo models, it's probably about the 40% mark, I would guess. How many people are actually surfing them as quads? I don't know what the statistics on that are, or how the quad movement is going. I guess amongst the young people in particular they're interested in quads for good wave barrels.
So how would you advise someone about when to surf the quad and when to surf the thruster?
Well, initially the boards that aren't made specifically to be surfed as a quad can still work as a quad. With the models that have got the option it doesn't hurt to have the extra plugs in, it doesn't change the way the board is going to operate as a thruster. It doesn't hurt and no-one should be afraid of trying out a combination board and just getting the feel of the quad option. It's a good exercise to do whether it's a board for good waves, where you are going to get barrels and use it as a quad in that situation, or whether it's for smaller waves and you are going to use it to give you a freer, looser, faster feel.
What about your own experience with them, have you used them as quads extensively?
Yeah I went through the process and all my models that have the quad option I've tried them as quads because I need to, obviously. That was a nice exercise. The only thing that I haven't done extensively is to surf my good wave quad option boards as quads in barrels. I haven't really done that and that's primarily 'cos I don't surf barrels that often, getting on a bit, but having said that I do have a few team riders here and there and I've got their feedback on it so I have a little bit of experience as far as that goes.
Again, because my boards are not just a quad board I don't have much problem recommending a good wave board with a quad option because I know those boards work well as a thruster. Otherwise I have surfed quads primarily for small wave conditions, personally that's what I'm more interested in and just giving myself a different feel as a quad board in small waves. Generally, I prefer a thruster, that may be because I'm biased or something, I don't know!
I think there are two schools of thought about the quads, I touched on it a little bit before, the way you position your fins in the board and for good waves and barrels the quad fins are closer together, seemingly across the spectrum of board makers. That's because the fins that are closer together will go more like a thruster anyway and in a good wave board the tail is not going to be as wide.
How would you characterise the differences in performance?
From speaking to people rather than personal experience, as far as the barrels go, and from watching guys at the highest level in competition, I've been in France, Hossegor for the CT event and watched Parko and Mick and Kelly of course, surf really solid hollow beach break waves. From what I've been told and what I can see, the quad, obviously has more fins in the water, so it's going to hold in better on the face of a barrel and I think you can get tighter and higher.
Also the other thing I noticed that again, when you take off, you've got more fins in the water and watching the guys surf with a quad you can change direction a bit quicker and easier so they can leave it to the last minute to pull up under the lip, then because they can sit higher on the face they can get more speed in the barrel when they need it.
So I think they're the characteristics that help with barrel surfing, but having said that you see other guys on the tour like John John, Gabriel Medina and others who don't surf quads at all, they are just sticking with thrusters.
As far as small waves go, what I have been doing, and other people as well I guess, I've got two variations in fin placement for small wave quads, one is to just go with the general theory of the good wave quad but your fin placements are in a fish style board, so it's a smaller board, already looser, just continue that good wave quad, barrel quad, fin position.
The other thing is to have it in a more old fashioned quad configuration closer to the rail so you actually have the back fins further apart and that actually means less control but more speed. You don't necessarily need a great deal of control in a small wave board, the idea is to try and loosen it up as much as possible to get the most speed. So the difference we are talking about there may only be an eighth or a quarter of an inch further out, a bit closer to the rail, but never the less there is a significant difference in performance. So you have got one, fins closer together, more control, less speed; the other a little wider apart, closer to the rail, faster, looser.
So do you feel threatened by quads from the historical perspective?
My hysterical perspective? I am very threatened! It's a funny thing, I've been watching it closely. I have a bit of a vested interest I suppose, more than anyone else, but I have had a lot of credit for the thruster over a long period of time. It's been going on for thirty odd years so I have had plenty of glory and definitely the quad was threatening to displace the thruster as the new standard in high performance small wave surfing. Even in bigger waves today, in 10'6" paddle in boards for monster waves, some guys prefer a quad.
So there is a threat there and I guess the jury is still out. You go back a couple of years ago and Kelly was getting right into quads and it looked like the next level of surfing was going to be done on quad boards but we'll see maybe that's not the case, I don't know. But I'm happy no matter how it goes just as long as the surfing keeps improving and we all get to benefit from advances in design. We'll see, but the jury is definitely still out, which is interesting. //blindboy
Comments
Good ti hear what Simon says about this topic his opinion is much respected by me . Recently i read an interview and learn valuable info from him about vee bottoms and high volume boards . His knowledge about thruster fins would have to be great so to hear his evaluation of quads is of interest to me. Im still mixing my fin setups between 3 & 4 fins . After exprimenting for 3 plus years finally early this year hit jackpot with quad fins but forehanding at this stage . Actually once 3-4 years ago did have brief success with a quad gun in forehand waves
But that board didnt last more than a few Surfs becos alfy cater borrowed and snapped . Otherwise the thruster has been reliable in all conditions for me. Im suprised no comments have been made about this thread already . Great topic crew , thanks Simon
I was a bit surprised at the lack of comments too caml, but I have learnt you never can tell what will get them started. I have to say I really enjoyed the conversation and it started me thinking about a whole range of design issues. Being mainly interested in the opposite end of the size range to you these days and having a small super loose thruster he did for me a couple of years ago, the comments about quads being potentially looser and faster got my attention.
And blindy good article mate . Really interesting that Simon would ride quad really after all he didnt like twin fins
He did pretty much say it was for testing purposes. And that he doesn't ride the tube enough to really warrant riding them.
I enjoy my quad fish even when it's not barreling much still though. But I always prefer thrusters on my backhand.
Yeh rog that losdoggy , seen the Gabriel villaran tube at peurto ? Thats gotta be quad pretty much the fastest mid face turn ive ever seen ! Super fast wowz
I am a fan of fun day quads..but after all the bs about fins and flow and concave .what about all the extra holes on the bottom of ya boards? we talk about Chinese wax jobs and dings and then we put a 5 fin box/setup in the bottom. Is all th aqua/aero dymanics bs or what?
The Campell brothers from Oxford Cal. had a 3 fin design back in the 70s, and a few other I believe had experimented with it--we can't forget these guys who helped pave the way. Peace...
Barley,im with you on this, do the extra fin holes slow a board down? i think it would have to make some difference but how much.Yeah Simon walks the talk alright and still rips,setting the standard for us older blokesto aspire to,imo.
simba Simon says no in the article and I would be inclined to take that as absolute at least in terms of his own boards. I have also noticed a couple of WCT surfers surfing combos set up as thrusters.
When surfing my boards as a thruster I fill my quad holes with pieces of plastic bread board.
Geez Mcguiver, nice work Udo
Why don't the fin companies make the plugs...?
I'd imagine the difference would be tiny in terms of the speed at which the water flows over the holes and the surface tension of the water to begin with.
For the record, I'm pretty much a thruster devotee because I like to generally stick with what I know and works. I did have a quad shaped for me back home a couple of years ago and it's still there, unsurfed. Next trip back to Oz I'll have to bust it out and give it a go. Should be nice and cured by now:)
Ummmm......... not quite un-surfed big brother. It was just sitting there...waiting....nothing sadder than an un-ridden board.
She's a sweet little 6'0. Felt comfy straight away on my backhand. Had to work out the sweet spot for feet placement on forehand but goes unreal when you find that sweet spot. Next time you are back home........
We need more articles like this one,different shapers and there ideas.
I find it hard to imagine the boxes breaking the laminar flow across the bottom and even if they did create some small amount of turbulence I suspect the forces involved would be negligible compared to the other forces acting on the board.
Simple test anyone can try ... turn ya garden hose tap on full bore and let the water stream run across the bottom of ya board, and then angle it across ya empty fin plugs ...
Best done with the water stream flowing with no 'distortion' (i.e. heaps of air in water) ... try without any end on the hose, try with a standard type of 'nozzle' adjusted to give a solid stream ...
'Laminar flow', I knew there had to be hydrodynamic term for the water that flows under the board.
At opposing ends I remember years ago that matt coats as opposed to gloss coats supposedly disrupted the surface tension of the water and allowed the board to go faster.
I thought it was a marketing thing as a gloss coat is more expensive and time consuming.
The theory was the same as those sharkskin suits the swimmers started wearing. A perfectly smooth surface creates more drag than a correctly textured one. I think it it has more to with the adhesive forces between the water and the substance it is flowing over than with surface tension. I'm not sure how much difference there would be between matt and gloss finishes, my guess would be probably below the threshold that you would detect it.
Yeah BB, I have a 6'8" Molusc Robo Simon's Brd
Glued 1000 grit wet and dry to the bottom and could not feel any difference, still goes unreal, from waist high to overhead;)
Love it.
What? The whole bottom of your board?
That would look very 'experimental' walking down the beach ...
Just got out of the surf 3-4' walls on a quad....hated it. I'll persevere for a while but it's not looking good. First time I've ever ridden one.
Hey blowy, from my experience fins can make a HUGE difference, even more so with a quad ... more fin area, more effect? And, they do tend to ride differently ....
I have a DHD 'bobby monster' ... a 'small wave board' by design that never seemed to work for me as a small wave board, quad or thruster, and struggled to work in beach break conditions ... but, it just comes alive with the right fin combo for me is peeling, hollow, point waves ...
My JS 'buried treasure' was the same ... weird as a thruster, but, set up with the right fins as a quad and it's heaps of fun ...
Don't let one surf turn you off trying different quads, fins combos' etc ...
Cheers Wingnut. Good advice mate.
Blowin, i just posted at the end. have a read of my post as i was the same.
A quick test of the strength of the adhesive forces would be to place a drop of water on the bottom. If it goes flat the adhesive forces are strong, if it forms a droplet they are weak. I doubt if it makes much difference but it could be an explanation for the change from gloss cost to protec or whatever they use now.
Its droplets you don't want, theres pages of info on the wetdry finish versus full polish on swaylocks.....600 + finish seems to be the winner.
Brutus what finish do you do for your towboards ?
Droplets indicate that the force of cohesion between the water molecules is greater than the force of adhesion between the surface and the water molecules. Theoretically, in terms of those two forces, there should be less friction but tribology is a difficult area so the best guide would be to do the experiment.
Few things I have thought of re these 'combo' 5 fin set ups:
Fin Cant ... often quads, front fins in quad set up, have a tad more cant than the front fins for a thruster set ups. So, if set for the thruster, might not make the quad go as good, and vice verse ...
Fin position ... front fins in quad not always suits same for front position in thruster.
Toe in ... again, thruster vs quad not always aligned.
So a combo becomes either:
- a thruster with the option of trying it as a quad, which may not go that well as a quad ... or
- a quad with the option of trying it as a thruster, which may not go as well as a thruster ...
I suspect therefore, many people with these 'combo five fin plus set ups' try the quad option and do not like it, and never go back, or in the very least start to form an opinion based upon a less than ideal quad set up ...
Since most do not have the cash to have a few different boards set up as quads to 'experiment' and fully appreciate their strengths, they are limited to the combo set ups, and therefore an ongoing dissatisfaction with quads.
Wingnut i suspect your dead right but a bunch of surfers and shapers have told me otherwise Kelly slater included. All these fins are just a scene by fin companies to make millions . 150 -170 bucks a set ! Fa k
You suggesting a marketing ploy?
Just remember too, Kelly rides smallish boards, so the fin cluster difference for him, his boards, between say the thruster fronts and the quad fronts, will be minimal, say, as compared to, boards around 6'2" and above.
Think so udo the 600 sort of finish is fastest yachties proved it . I dont fill my empty plugs in when theyre redundant but probably should . Wouldnt think they slow u down more so create air bubbles that might make lack of water flow
So use 4 W.F.S. plugs.....cant -tow in - forward back adjustment so max of amount of fine tuning can be done.....in order to perferct the quad/thruster set up in the one board.
What do u mean sorry?
The fin designers don't worry much about gaps/holes thing re performance. Look at what they do to the rear fin base just so they'll fit a large set in futures boxes. I love big fins, used MR twins, as thruster side fins for ages, and would have the back fin made to match. I saw some big fins I'd like to try, but can't bring myself to buy them, with just a blatent hack out of the rear base to fit them in the futures boxes.
Dion's in Brookvale had a pretty good range of FCS style fins for $25 a set last time I bought some. Of course you could always go back to what we did as kids, and shape them yourself from marine ply. I learnt that trick from Gary Mountford who went on to found FCS!
As far as surfaces go, I think they are of minimal importance. If you look at underwater footage of surfing there is a lot of turbulence particularly behind the fins so the drag created by that is going to be orders of magnitude higher than the difference between glossy and textured surfaces.
Yes blindy re air bubbles and finish coats but no good fins are 25 $ Not fibreglass surely maybe plastic ? Cuplift the futures seem to work fine i have a set of twiggys,simons,panchos,& more that overhang the box but the fin sits flush and makes no problem even in big waves . Nothings smoother than glass in fins but my futures are good for me and i have trialed them without error . I have had problems with fcs not fitting flush due to the fins & plugs being gay
Udo wat is a wfs plug ?
Caml, google 4 WFS . four way fin system.
try and imagine when you do your bottom turn,and aim at the top of the wave to do your off the top carve,that there is a moment when you must transition your board from one rail to the other....
the thruster transitions thru your back central fin,and allows you to actually drive off it.....man turn!
the quads seem faster as there is no central fin slowing the board down but when you transition you have to back off and do a faster pivot style turn....
I like to think that making the hull shape faster and still able to do high speed carve hacks with a thruster set up is the way to go...that's why I do not recommend AM/KS set ups as their back fins are smaller than the sides...wheras we have learnt from tow surfing that smaller sides than the back central fin definitely gives you way more carve in your top turns.
We stopped using polished finishes on Tow bds years ago when we learnt that Yachts and power boats all use wet and dry finishes.....we had a great tow bd with a polish,resanded and Wet and dried it...and ...board went faster and felt way smoother.....
In better waves, walling waves, I've found exactly that going back to the "early" days of FCS ... I found the old G3 as sides with G4 in the centre provided just that ... but, when the waves were less 'walling', like many beach break conditions, it felt a tad 'stiff' or 'tight' so made it harder to react, so would change it around ... G4 sides, G3 centre.
More recently, I've found the more 'upright' fins like the FCS K2.1's and Shapers AP02 (Asher Pacey) working better with slightly more fin cant ...
Also, FWIW, anyone buying 'after market' fins, which are "like" a particular model, say for example AM fins or whatever, do yourself a favour and take a 'genuine' set with you (i.e. borrow a set of ya mates) to check the 'after market' set ... slight variations in outline, thickness and foil, especially the inside foil, make a big difference ...
Shit caml looks like I'm back to plywood then. Seriously they are exactly the same construction as the FCS fins most boards are sold with. Not the best fins in the world and if you are at the top of your game you might be able to notice the performance difference but I'd be surprised if most surfers could tell on a double blind test ride.
Caml, 4WFS on vimeo also.
Blindy yeah sorry your a bit behind the times mate ! They sell cheap replica fins with the boards like foam coffee cups . The fins are plastic ! One of my " best surfer quotes" is a good chef doesnt cut the roast with a plastic knife ! Good fins are like new tyres / bald tyres , i could tell the difference paddling out before even riding wave . At times i believed that fins are 90% of the way a surfboard rides , the board is just to paddle upon . Tow surfing proves this hey brutes ?
All true caml but I change my fins around all the time mixing the three standard size thruster fins into different configurations for the day so I would be up for $500 worth of fins to maintain what I do now. Hmmm, probably not going to pay that much. I might try and organise some double blind tests with the local boys. Tricky to organise so they don't know what they are surfing but I will give it some thought.
Thats right blindy those ply fins are sounding better , if u surf small crappy waves the replica fins Will get u by but in seriously big / fast waves foils and stiffness are gonna be important . George greenough showed us the way with foils ages ago its funny that plastic fins could sell theyre a gimmick fake . Sorry but im a fin fanatic but you started this topic
for fins I often use the analogy of race cars and tyres.......if you have shit tyres,it doesn't matter how good the car is......
same in surfing,fins are what connect you to the water,same as tyres on a race car.....
I have always been fanatical about fins....and when starting to tow .....fins are as important as the shape...
Lets get George to design a quad fin setup .......be very interesting what his fins would look like and where he would place them for short board or a gun ?
Udo so i checked out those south African fin system , firstly theyre moulded composite fins with hex core , the tab is small so it doesnt sit in the board enough for my liking making potential to flex from the base .also there is either four or eight screws per fin , far too many . One each fin is bad enough . The futures system and probably fcs have different shape fins for 3 & 4 setups . So the quad fins have a shape that sits further forward anyway . See ea quad for example .
All good caml, I'm not surfing too many A grade waves these days and basically just glad to still be out there getting a few. The plywood fins actually looked great if they were done well, we just used to jam them into what was basically just a slot using chamois. It worked really well. If you did knock one out most of the time it just floated up nearby!
Stretch quad EA quad have upright shape not much rake so therefore are further forward
You can buy proper fibreglass panel fins for futures etc that work best , last longest , if you hit reef they dont crumble & break . You can sand them back if u hit reef so they are the best value to buy but for small waves the techflex or hexcore do the job especially beach breaks you cant hit reef anyway
Yeh camsless, I only use futures boxes, but the design means that they have to cut a chunk out of the rear bottom of the base for the biggest base area fins to get them into the box. With McCoy I learned that the length of and shape of the trailing curve at the base made a big difference. Especially coming off the bottom of waves with plenty of draw, like blacks. So, and with all the discussion on fin shape, it doesn't sit right that its ok to just to cut a chunk out of the bottom of that area, because they design the fin in a way that it can't go into the box without doing it. I used to love keel style fins too, as they have so much drive, and if they are the right shape, and if you can push hard enough they are still easy to turn. I actually have to agree with brutusless, changing fins can make the best board useless, or a dud suddenly perform. The best shapers always design the two, board and fins to match. McCoy used to make me some awesome gull/wing style things, a lot of work though. I had about a dozen various sizes at one stage. A lot of the new knock offs are thin, no real meat, or not a good flex pattern, and characteristics, like the best fibreglass, which is one of Futures strength in the right models.
I love both quads and thrusters for me there like blondes and brunettes.
For me thrusters when, short peaky waves or in rip style banks like we get here in vic where you are trying to stay in the pocket rather than race a long wall, i also like thrusters for top to bottom style surfing.
Quads when waves are very fast or hard to make sections, even if not hollow or even waves with a fast first section, if i surf them in these kind of waves i find i make more waves and enjoy my surfing more, i also dig them backhand.
Everyone says quads are good in barrels, personally i think it depends on the kind of barrel, if its a wave that you need to stall to get barrelled or an in the pocket kind of barrel i prefer thrusters but if its a fast down the line kind of barrel i like quads.
Back home in Vic i actually find it very hard swapping back and forth between ridding thrusters and quads and it can take me from a few waves to a whole surf to get back into the swing of things as there is so many other factors and hassles that throw me down here, like waves being unpredictable in shape, wetsuits, not being able to surf as regularly as i like, so i normally stick to one or the other for a while then swap when there is a run of certain waves that suit one set up more than the other.
However on a recent trip to Indo, i was surfing a variety of totally different waves often in the one day and was swapping between thrusters and quads from one surf to the next with no problems whatsoever.
Indo yeah thats one of the best summaries ive heard . Similar here but turns never quite as hard as thri fin does not sayin either is any better
I owe Dions an apology. The plastic fins are all FCS the Dions are hex core. Price check $35 a set.
Great article. I have a 5'9" combo set up that ripped as a thruster but was just out of control as a quad no matter what set up I used. I got my next board shaped the same [+2"] just a thruster set up and it was a dog. I tried so many fin variations even to the extent of borrowing and trawling eBay to try and get it right. I was just about to give up when I thought I'd get some quad plugs put in [@ Skipp Surfboards Wollongong, great people] Figuring I was going to lose money selling it 2nd hand anyway. That quad! Yes now it is exclusively a quad is my go to board. It turned out to be the best last ditch idea I've ever had. Don't worry about the extra holes v drag. I'm of the opinion if it doesn't worry the elite it's certainly not going to bother me. Moral of the story, get the combo fins everytime it could definitely save you some heart ache. t(-_-t)
ive gone back to thrusters as ive had a few combo boards but find it mind numbing trying to work out what fins to put in cause with quads one day ill have a good surf and the next the waves are a bit different and the things a dog ....or maybe im the dog......confused......anyway thrusters never fail.
Yeah I think quads are harder to dial in the right fins, fin shape and size seems to make a bigger difference than thrusters.
Thrusters i find i can put in my favourite set of fins and nine times out of ten i will get a feel/understanding for the board.
who needs fins....http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/more-sports/brad-domke-surfs-ridicul...
Board number 12 from Simon has a quad set up with Simon fins.
I'm old and tired but the quad feels tight and fast.
Jumping from 3 to 4 and back to 3 is the challenge. Fins make the board.
Lets face it, it's hard to get a dud board these days just as long as you don't get your ambitions confused with your ability.
Just got back from Bali and I used a set of C drives I bought a couple of years ago and hadn't used for a while. They were a revelation in a fast breaking long walls like good size Balangan on my back hand. I used them in and old 5'11" and they were FAST and smooth in this thruster. Much better in these type of waves than the standard style fins. Hung in there really well with stacks of drive. Worth trying a set.
yeah i used to have c drives and really liked them,think i sold them with a board i got rid of but they go really well,might buy another set now youve reminded me memla.
Also have just returned from a month in Indo. Surfed a semi well known freight train right off North Sumatra. After 10 days there last year I left knowing I had to change my way of thinking on the boards I was riding there. ie 6'2" thrusters and bigger step up boards up to 6'6" in thrusters. Went back this year with a 5'8" combo fin set up having never ridden a quad in my life. The first surf I had on the quad was 4-6 ft and from the first barrel ridden knew I was onto a good thing. Surfed this board up to 8ft and what I noticed were:
1. The quads definitely held mid face while trying to pull in under the lip
2. A shorter board also helped with this ie. getting in under the lip
3. Once in the barrel the stability provided by the quads when on the foamball is something I have never experienced on a thruster.
4. The ability to generate speed in the barrel without over pumping and trying too hard was exceptional.
For this particular wave I will be riding quads only when the waves are serious and pull out the thruster shortboard for some fun in the smaller stuff.
A comment for BB regarding the disruption to laminar flow that open plugs produce. I'd agree you'd have to be very sensitive to feel it. I have a 6'0" I ride as 2+1 (like Brutus prefer the "man turns" that larger rear fin/ thruster is capable of), and when swapping board into a twin fin - MR TFX - setup for small beachies, cannot really feel the gaping, open 10" finbox on smooth faces. Cut back into the foam, and as soon as you hit it, you REALLY feel the finbox opening! Loose/slide turbulence, like something is wrong in the tail (which it is). Could the turbulence flowing over the sharp edges be the same reason my 6 channels feel wonky when slow in the foam but brilliant on the face? Probably.
In this respect, shaping a spacer to fill centre finbox when the 2+1 goes twin is desirable - not sure if open FCS openings would lead to anything like this phenomenon however as their scale is much, much smaller.
Great article, and always great to hear Simon's opinion.
Years back there was a plastic infill cover strip[s] sections avail to fill in between fin base and box hole when moving single fin forward or back.
in regard to C-drives,thats all I use now as does RCJ....Noah Johnson uses C-drive quads in his Jaws/Waimea/Avalanche.....al double foiled..
I think that C-drives are the most advanced fin on the market......that's all we have used in Tow bds for the last 5 years!!
Great info syril!
I currently have a 5'10 Nick Blair combo fin setup but I think it's mainly designed with the quad setup in mind.
It's actually a quad into pin tail and I think this is what make this board so good.
Super fast and never slips out due to I'm guessin the pin tail.
I have never surfed a better board in the barrel, as syril wrote, the quad just seems to give you so much more time/speed and stability while inside, and again the pin holds an amazing line. Had more lengthy barrels on it than any of my other boards.
But, I used it as a thurster out in the desert on a perfect 4-6ft right reef break and it didn't feel anywhere near as good. Too sticky and not as drivey, had to put much more effort into it to get it to do what I wanted.
Also never actually pictured the two extra fins of the quad holding in the hollow wave face compared to a thurster setup as Simon talks about, totally makes sense.
Memlasurf, you inspired me to dig up my old C-drives, used them today...forgot how good they can be. Its a thruster set...would love some quads, but could get exy finding the right match for my board...have you tried them as quad?
Yep but only on a 5'2" Pier Pony style board. Really fast and drivey but a bit stiff for that one however I reckon they would be unreal on something with more length. They seem to go better the larger and longer the waves get. You can just buy the two rear fins and keep the ones you have for the front. I don't think they were that expensive however I may be wrong.
Brutus how do you use c drives but not fcs ? What fin system are you using there
Future fins make plugs that go into the unused fin boxes , but they arent so commonly found . But they do exist , i have one but need more .
Caml, futures 1/2 inch box filler $7.70 in there online store.
Yeah thats them , plastic chopping boards cheaper but hey udo
Caml, C-drives in futures or fcs....really big base, with small tips...holds, but releases, and for an average late 30's average surfer, its really noticeable...when its clean and glassy they absolutely rock...don't like them at all when its choppy tho...sorta hang or catch, hard to describe,even offshore chop... why they found their way to the dusty shelf in the shed...
Yes , have used c d years ago and they felt good alright but im certain that futures dont make them .
Anyone know of c drive fitting futures ? Brutus what do u know
straight from c drive site now...i think fcs dropped em, but not sure...either way they do both "compatible" systems for a reasonable price...got my first set which were really large on a second hand board....bought a smaller set about 2-3 years ago online off their site..no issues...even had a humming fin that they replaced for naught....and no, I don't work for them
Yeah ok woohcs , i jus googled em too & suspect they make their own fins now rather than fcs . Sorry wasnt aware of that , guess that MC gets em direct from c drive fins . Dean Cole had a bit to do with the design i remember he talked about it in g-land at the time i was using keel / bonzer side fins .
Yeah you buy them direct. They are super helpful and will exchange if they are too big/small. I had a set which were a bit small (grommet set as I am only 64kg) and they swapped them for the next size up even though I had used them. Got a set for my 5'10" Twinnie as well which they are insane on. Much better for me than the MR fins. Woohcs, I think you nailed it with the chop which is probably the reason I put them aside. They seem unpredictable and release when you least expect it. In Bali the walls were so clean and fast the C drives really worked. The standard fins are better in junkier waves but I will be using the C drives when it is clean from now on. Interestingly Kolohe Andino loves big fins, twinnies and volume as he finds them easier to surf. He says anything which makes it easier is better. I agree with that one.
http://stabmag.com/red-bull-decades-ep-three-the-town-and-country-saint/
Yea cheers Craig. Glad you liked the info. I forgot to mention the board I was riding was also a pin tail. Your comment "It's actually a quad into pin tail and I think this is what make this board so good" slapped me in the head when I realised how important the tail shape is.
With this in mind, I'll order all my high performance quads with a pin tail, seems like the best of both worlds!
Craig for that matter also your low performance quads ie big wave boards , round pins for big waves . Quad suit wide tail board . I have been enjoying an 8"6 round tail quad , smooth ride goes Fast
Whilst on the turbulence " topic " .
Are there fins out there with a " saw tooth " rear trailing edge ?
I've seen in some of the latest expensive industrial fan blades that they run with something like this . Siting that they are smoother and create less trailing turbulence !?!
I know they are pretty much propellers which see's intermittent flow rather than linear in the case of fins , keels and the like .
I do vaguely remember seeing some " novelty " fins which had 1/2 - 3/4 inch teeth .
But the ones that are coming out on fan blades are somewhere between 1/8 - 1/4 inch .
Thoughts ?!?
Gee Southey
Those fins would do some damage! Wouldn't want to be on the back end of one of those.
Quickly patent it? I like ya thought process:)
GE own the patent ...
Yeah , you would think I'd know better .
I still have scars inside my nostril where the back end of my fins catapulted back into causing half a dozen stitches ...
But at the end of the day , the bluntest fins will damage you regardless , if the hit you in the wrong circumstances .
Yeah apparently the serated rear edge mimic's an owl's feathers on their wings ...
( which apparently fly with very little air noise / silent ) ... Can't verify that , maybe a Welly monster would be all over that !
Haha classic stuff
The "Owl Fin"
Silently scharlping ...
Yeah southey owls wings dont make noise so they can hunt better . Interesting stuff if you do some research on wings & fish fins . For example a hummingbird has short little wings that can flap x amount per second . ( lots ) or a albatross just a flap every minute ( not so many ) then you can choose what you want do with your fins surfing . Most fins are causing surfers to flap too much . So often my fins make different noises , not just an awful hum there was the whooping fin that made a big whoop every hard turn . Then the hooting fin actually was an owl Chapman single fin made such a loud squeal that a Cupla guys paddling out as i was riding past thought i was hooting myself .
Breaking surface tension by having little spikes over the fin would be interesting . If you have a look at the shape of shells there are lots with rough surfaces that break to surface tension so when theyre hanging on when water flows over them they dont get sucked off . Subsequently a smooth shell would have to hang on more than a rough surface shell . My favorite shells are clams & razor sharp scallop type shells , for breaking the waters flow
Very interesting, never thought about this! Always learning from nature ay.
And totally agree re quads and rounded pins on bigger boards, don't have one myself, but might try get one sorted.
This clip is more so water photography..
Worth watching the 4 mins as there are a couple of sequences of a thruster set up and one of a quad which is taken from under the water. The quad looks smother...?
Caml interesting about the different sounds.
http://vimeo.com/90429499
welly , i'm not sure if I've seen that clip before ... but strangely I kept subliminally holding my breath through all the underwater footage .... and I only noticed it when I kept taking short breaths when the camera surfaced ..... I presume this is a good thing .. my brains wired differently after years of surfing .
Some really interesting images there welly. What impressed me most was the zero turbulent flow around the fins when the boards of both types were in trim.......but if you look closely at the quad there is a trail from the empty box!
The shells that cling onto rocks / reef make the job easier by turbulating the water , sometimes very powerful forces of water rushing by , by mixing air with water it will lessen the tension . Covering the bottom of your surfboard or fins with similar shaped surface could increase speed by a lot . Imagine 50% less water contact due to turbulation . Then theres golf ball dimples & shark skin surfaces , step bottom boats / surfboards .....
But would that breaking of surface tension also compromise drive from the water rushing out along the board dimensions and also past the fins? Much like riding through a real frothy wave, seems to lose that drive and becomes more slippy.
Surface finishes on boards and fins has been a 10 year discussion on swaylocks , use the site search function.
Fin surface finishes .....brings up 10 pages covering cavitation laminar flow etc.
Yes that would be true Craig . Once had a Willis bros dimple bottom board it felt amazing like a padded , shock absorbing , air turbulated feel , the fins held it in good though and it went well .
You always have a good / different slant on things Caml .
I was purely referencing that if flow was more uniform , or created less turbulence leaving the trailing edge of the Fin . I would presume that increased flow rates would A: reduce drag , and B: help the drive characteristics of especially dual foiled side fins .
Not so sure what size the " teeth " would need to be for water as opposed to air .
Something that i'm sure could be experimented with .
I noticed in the recent article that Ben posted regarding Roy Stuart , the shaper of the worlds most expensive surfboard no less , was holding a 3D printed fin with a serrated trailing edge.
The serrated edge is the leading edge on Roy's fins. Might still be the same theory?
I think it is. I believe Roy has strong ideas on the thickness and serrated edge reducing drag.
Roy?
Roy will be back soon, he's just down getting his skin gilded at the moment.
Any kiwi surfers out there that have tried Roys 3D printed fins on a shortboard ?
Roy claims 32% less drag and 8% more lift with his warp drive fins .
Interesting claim. Does he have any data to back it up?
Forget Roys claims ...
I dug around the Fan Blade versions ....
And it seems that Aerocool ( does fans for powersupplies on computers ) and DAIKIN ( yes that huge Japanese Airconditioner manufacturer are pushing these claims that their fans run Silent .
I can't confirm but I believe Aerocool have gone with old mates version with leading edge ( thick knuckle like ) serrations , whilst Daikin have gone down the trailing edge path .....
I can vouch for the Daikins , they are quiet , and they are the type of company that don't waste money on gimmicks .
Whether that parallels to the water is yet to be seen ?
where is this " other " thread with Roy ...
This isn't that really old thread about expensive solid wood boards ?
Geez I laughed when I read this caml. "Then the hooting fin actually was an owl Chapman single fin made such a loud squeal that a Cupla guys paddling out as i was riding past thought i was hooting myself . "
Caml rides with an invisible 'Powerful Owl' on his shoulders.
Maybe hitting rocks and ripping chunks out of your fins will make u go faster ? Serrated leading edge , wowz ! Kinda like a swordfish has a spiky nose ? Anyway so back to the owl , i was just standing on the road and a big owl swooped down and landed a few metres in front of me , wings spread for landing . But there was no noise and it was a quiet night so no mistake , silent . Hes feathers have a downy soft fluff sort of feather and its totally silent. Very different to some birds whose wings make a noticable flutter or swoop . Would like to see Roy stuarts bonzer sorta fins with that rough finish looks a bit like my shells surface . Or patterns in the sand after waves wash up , see cowara jet bottom surfboards
Just saw on the TDF coverage , a couple if the riders in the very aero dynamic conscious time trial , had helmets on with dimples on them . More like bumps than dimples .. !!?!?
Hey Craig i did some experiments on surfing in frothy water ie second wave behind bigger waves. Seems like u can go fast thru it but what slows u down is maybe the turbulence of that water swirling so hard that it adds friction to the surface area of board & fins .it could be different turbulence that we re talking. What i know is that the longer a fin is the friction is increased due to pressures . So possibly 6 short fins can be less friction than one long fin
Caml, just had a deeper think about this and discussion with Stu.
Golf balls, or other objects that use dimples or irregularities to reduce surface tension have already got the momentum through the air provided by the golfer hitting the ball etc. and these irregularities simply keep the moving object travelling farther and with more speed than it could compared to if it was smooth.
On a surfboard though, you have to create the drive through the fins/board in the first place, so reducing surface tension from the get go is inhibits the boards performance.
If the board was up and going, like being towed in, then the dimples/irregularities would help the board to continue travelling faster and for longer, but then once you try to drive the board with the fins/concave it will be inhibited again.
So I can see irregularities being more useful for towing, where the ski gives you the momentum from get go, but not normal surfing where you have to generate you're own momentum off the fins and board.
We have diffrent ideas Craig sounds like you are talking about small waves but i can imagine waves of 6- 100 ft having a bit of force . But really i see what u mean becos even just paddling you could have drag from lots of bumps / spikes hanging off your board .
what about hydrofoiling guys ? strangely no -one gave that a mention .... huge amount of surface tension there in those foils . the depth of them would have to be 3 times the biggest single fin / keel . !?
were's nick pope ?
Craig I think you are confusing drag and surface tension. Drag is the frictional force acting against the board as it moves through the water. Surface tension is the force between the molecules at the surface of water that cause it to resist penetration. Surface tension is is significant because the foil design of a surfboard enables it to skim on the surface tension once it reaches a critical speed and so greatly reduce drag. The dimples and other structures on golf balls, swim suits and wings are there because testing has shown they help maintain laminar (smooth) flow of the air or water over the surface and so reduce drag. The shape, size and position of these structures for a surfboard fin or bottom would need to be determined by tank testing. I'm not sure if that work has been done.
So whats the general consensus of a quads back fins,50/50 or 70/30? Whats the best set up cause i wasnt going to go back to them but wtf why not.Any suggestions gents.
Set up wise, I like PC5 fronts with GX Q backs (I think they give the board a slicing feel IMHO)....and if you have a combo set up and the fins are set apart a bit further e.g. small wave quad, but you want to ride in say 4ft + I whack a nubster in the back, gives it drive and kinda a Tuad (just made up) feeling, really good compromise.
Bobby Martinez vid 'The new flyer'
Bobby tells of surfing only quads now and down in size from 6' to 5'6 ......and says I should have listened to Michael Ho and Nathan Fletcher about Quads years ago they were into them way before Slater.
Check out Muzza's experiment on Quad fin placement. Interesting read. The board is for sale in his treasure chest!!!
http://www.bourtonshapes.com/brooko-experiment-results/
Good link.
I first got a big wave quad 6ft 5in goes incredibly well. I have no doubt its the fastest looses big board ive ever surfed. Then scaled down 5ft10in high performance small
wave board like it just as much and they go even better on my backhand and now
trying to break my 6ft2in thruster because it just feels too slow and stiff now.
Quads are the future imo.
Thruster or Quad I don't care. I have surfed Winki at Fairy Bower on a huge day and I mean solid ten foot. I was the only one out till the big fella paddled past me(Simon Anderson) he had his thruster I had my thruster Simon and I started paddling for the horizon you know when you see those dark moutains coming at Deadmans and Winki. Simon got the first one all the way past surge rock into deep water, I followed him on the second wave both were a solid 8-10ft our thrusters performed fantastic out there. As for Quads great for Winki and Deadmans shit for the long fast walls you dont want a board that is going to want to ride high in smashable lips and walls. I dont care as long as it performs the way I want it to great I dont care about scientific reasons why this board goes like this or that. I leave that up to my shaper Mitchell Rae. He shapes and I ridem. As for Thrusters they will never be threatened. Three fins are here to stay and every surfer should give Simon $5 for inventing the best fin setup EVER.
Shit Kerry1 sounds like it was pumping .......Smashable lips at 8-10ft..........and only 2 guys out ...just you and big Simon.....that must have been so cool.....
S Anderson Vs K Pearson ...what a spectacle
Stu I knew it wouldn't sink in .