Internet Surfcams

Of course they're influencing the crowd numbers of a surf break. When the report tells you one thing and nature is doing another, you can always get the best indication from a visual check for real-time assessment.

The real question is, what can be done about it. There's no law, rule or regulation of putting a public cam up for the purpose of monitoring coastal conditions. Sure it's 'fun' to monitor conditions via charts, and other variables, but whats the point of your post?

To 'forum-moderator' could you please change your username. Operating with that name is likely to give other forum users the impression that you are a moderator when you aren't.

Feel free to discuss anything you like, including this topic, though it'll have to be done under another name. I'll send you an email and leave this topic here for another hour.

Stu

Webcams have increased the crowds at my beach significantly since being introduced a few years ago. When a rival site had their camera mounted on our surfclub they were getting over 100,000 hits per month. This camera was stolen a few times and the eventually relocated futher down the beach. This has subsequently spread the numbers out over the whole beach and really has taken the pressure off our break.
I do believe webcams serve their purpose especially for those who reside a considerable distance from the beach, this helps them make the decision to take that drive or not.
The only thing I would like to see is the owners of these sites consulting the locals to come up with a solution that suits everybody.

This topic was discussed (sort of) earlier this month ... see surf reporting in Wax On. Turns out the forum moderators get just a little touchy about this topic and do much but address the issue or questions put to them. Surf reports & cams do put more people in the surf and more generally add to the marketing of the false dream of perfect empty waves that the surf industry peddles in the name of profit. The real world is different as we all know and that is as much of surfing as the occasional epic day. My main beef is that some of these reports or cams are located in sensitive areas and but that I mean at locations where on any number of days per year the location may be the only workable bank or reef on an entire coast. How sensitive is that and its a question I have put to Swellnet and it remains unanswered.

My main beef is that some of these reports or cams are located in sensitive areas and but that I mean at locations where on any number of days per year the location may be the only workable bank or reef on an entire coast. How sensitive is that and its a question I have put to Swellnet and it remains unanswered.

By: "nev89"

I've just gone back over your posts Nev and I can't find where you asked that. And, to be honest, I'm not really sure what question you are asking.

Also, do you really think surfcams, with their real-time vision, add to a 'false dream of perfect empty waves'? Looked at the Bondi cam today, or Snapper, or Shark Island?

If anything, I would say they do the opposite...

Mr True Surfer,

We frequently get emails from other surfers to adjust our cameras this way or that way so they give better coverage. I get the same requests in person when I'm surfing my local at Cronulla. Many of the crew there want to see the Shark Island camera give a wider angle, or altered from S swells to N swells. And these requests comes from surfers who have lived and surfed the Island all their lives. Not naming names, but if you are a true surfer I imagine you would've heard of them.

Therefore, just because you have your assumptions and prejudices don't go believing that the whole world is thinking likewise. It would take an extraordinary lack of imagination to think that is the case.

Lastly, yes, we do want to have the best website. The problem with that is?

Stu the problem is not with the use of cams by locals, it is the way they concentrate the crowds of non-locals. Most of us probab;y have some degree of local status around the place because we habitually surf the same breaks. From time to time we may move around a bit but we probably know at least some of the locals at the places we visit. You may not have noticed but this is now minority, small minority, behaviour. Most of our newly acquired surfing bretheren, get up, look at the internet surf reports and cams and choose somewhere to go surfing. Hence excessive crowds when, joy of joys, your beach finally gets some banks.
This issue has had legs since the days of Shane Stedman and Mark Warren doing AM radio spots and has become a major problem over the last decade. I challenged Ben on another thread to state his long term plans for the site and deny that he intended more cameras with higher resolution at more locations and more sophisticated software to alert the roaming hoards where they should go today.
Sorry guys, play it how you will, you are part of a p5roblem that is getting worse and contributing to the kind of anger and poor behaviour in the water that you spend column inches deploring.
I don't think we can avoid the future but it would be nice if you stepped up and said "Sorry guys, we're making a damn fine living here and, as long as you log in regularly we don't really give a rats about what is actually happening at your spot.

There is certainly some argument against the way in which some punters are using the cams to make a beeline for the popular breaks. Mind you with just 20 live cams on this site (not sure about the other sites)plus reports I think it is a bit rich to conclude that only a minority of new crew are heading elsewhere while the masses swarm to the publicised locations.

Not denying crowding is a reality - just give some credit to those new to surfing that they may have a bit more imagination than that.

On the topic of anger and behaviour in the water why not start up a thread on surf etiquette. Get some of these clowns educated. I would do it but not much of an authority I'm afraid.

^^^^ well said Blindboy

Oh no, the "masses" are swarming to secret uncrowded waves like Bondi, Dee Why, Cronulla, Snapper, Narrabeen, Surfers Paradise and Manly; Aaaargh!

The thing is, surfing is used to promote haemorrhoid cream and retirement villages. Surf companies also promote the shit out of it,they are the bastards.

The crowds are already here and there will be more and more, so cameras or not, get used to it.

Want an uncrowded wave you have to use your imagination a bit. It's not that hard, really. Even in Sydney!

"Oh, I live in a city of millions and "my" break is busy at 3ft on a Sunday morning, it must be the cameras so lets go on a witch hunt".

The failure of this course of thinking is that it willfully ignores the fact that surfing is mainstream now and we are all part of the "masses"(even the self-proclaimed and self-appointed local surf police; nobody is more important than others).

By the way, it is never crowded over 8ft ... so saddle up if you want an uncrowded wave. The best surfers and chargers at my beach don't seem to be concerned at all about crowd numbers on the small days. They seem to know they will get their waves, eventually.

Twenty cameras on beaches that are packed regardless. Hmmm. There is NO evidence besides biased self-interested anecdotal claims that the cameras have increased crowds at the locations they are placed. I suggest that those places would be as crowded anyway, it's just that people now have a straw man to blame - internet surf check cameras.

But we have been here before people. Right Blindboy? ;-)

How about instead of whinging or assuming the Swellnet will simply pack up and go away only to be replaced by another service provider we offer suggestions to them on how to provide the service while remaining sensitive to the interests people here are advocating (interestingly, locals only)? The Swellnet crew seem pretty open to listening to suggestions and advice. If we are going to complain we should offer solutions. No?

ho hum .. same questions same response ... you forum monitors should either be less thick skinned or perhaps consider going into politics given you already have got the ignore the question routine down beautifully. blindboy has now asked twice what is the long term business plan for cams & reports & twice that specific question has been ignored. i accept the reality in and around cities but down country (or anywhere near it) would be so grubby in my opinion.

yes, you can get uncrowded waves even when its small & yes as size increases crowd numbers fall but so what, please answer the questions member's like blindboy put to you.

now, poket-roket in the latest post talks about starting up a thread of surf etiquette. i think this is something within swellnet's brief and could take little effort. what about it boys?

Well said Clif.
I'm also not convinced that over crowding is simply a by product of the cameras. More people surf nowadays regardless. Surfing was always about the brotherhood, getting out there with mates, making new surfing firends. What's happened?
The crowds are here to stay so change your surfing patterns if you can, surf early during the week, get out of Sydney on a weekend if possible. If you've been surfing a while, you'll know where you can go, camera or not.

nev89, I am not a forum moderator. I don't work for Swellnet. I just disagree with the panic that is being whipped up here about surf cameras taking over the world.

And you seem to be worried about cameras in non-urban areas but that seems like you are jumping at shadows. There are none, are there? I cannot imagine they would evenbe viable as they wouldn't last ten minutes.

Hey Nev,

I've got on here a few times and given my opinion and it's a case of, as you say, 'same questions, same responses'. I find your questions boring and trite, as you probably find my answers predictable. So no, I'm not gonna bother getting on here and answering them again.

As for Blindboy's question, well, I'm in no position to answer that - this is not my business. But you would have to be a terribly naive person to think that anyone would announce (one way or another) business plans on a surf forum.

As for a thread on surf etiquette: why don't you start it up? This is a forum after all.

sadly, there we have it ... all care and no responsibility.

"By the way, it is never crowded over 8ft ..." maybe not southside clif but check out any of the northside quality spots on a decent 8ft plus day and I guarantee you'll find a crowd.
On the subject of straw men, I don't remember asserting that surf cams were the major cause of crowding or denying that surf companies have played a major role. My point is that cams and surf reports play a significant role in concentrating crowds. True none of the spots you mention are exactly off the radar but you might be surprised at just how much fluctuation you get in the crowd at most of them. As a few people have asserted you can still get decent uncrowded waves if you try a bit harder, but don't kid yourself it will stay that way. I expect the business plans of the surf report sites are constantly being updated to make sure that they track down the last few avenues of escape from the hordes.....and you're right no-one is more important than anyone else, people are absolutely free to float around the line up like flotsam and jetsam, getting in the way. Etiquette? Well we all know a few sketchy rules on a nicely painted sign solves those problems right?

On the subject of straw men, I don't remember asserting that surf cams were the major cause of crowding or denying that surf companies have played a major role. My point is that cams and surf reports play a significant role in concentrating crowds.

By: "blindboy"

Fair enough. Though, it would be good to have some evidence of this besides anecdotal. Otherwise it will always be called "speculative"

How about alternatives? I cannot see surfcams going away. How should they be managed - etiquette-wise? Solutions not just complaints. Perhaps it is time for a manifesto of sorts to set up community-driven protocols?

I find it hard to think of what these protocols could be. Some people love the cameras. It's a catch 22.

Focus on one fixed location of the beach in question to provide current swell and wind data visuals?

Only locate cameras on urban beaches?

Before cameras are erected at least one publicly held consultation session required with local community?

?????

Maybe people should stop having so many babies. If you live in Sydney what do you expect? It's only going to get more crowded whether there is surfcams or not.
I'm a long time dedicated surfer but if I was a non surfer and I read some of these forums I may think what a bunch of softcock whingers these surfers are.

I live in Manly. The only time I know that I wont have to deal with crowds is when the swell gets over the 5-6ft mark (from the E or NE). That's the only time that the hoards wont paddle out. Swell or no swell, on any weekend there will always be several hundred tourists in the water on all manner of surfcraft. Now I'm not going to get angry with them because I didn't always live on the beach and used to drive to and from the coast every weekend. Who am I to deny them a bit of fun in the water?

Yes, webcams probably make it slightly more crowded but the main reason is because catching a good wave is so much fun.

clif it comes back to the same philosophy that has been repeatedly stated in discussions of this issue for at least thirty years. Surf reports should give general information about prevailing conditions and general predictions about future conditions. They should focus on regions rather than individual breaks or beaches. The present situation has developed through the opportunistic greed of a long series of exploiters and entrepeneurs so it is now deemed acceptable to provide instantaneous information about as many locations as possible to anyone who wants it, free of charge. It is yet another manifestation of our cultural tendency to put a price on everything while knowing the value of nothing.

I don't see much point in making suggestions that will be ignored anyway. No-one is going to negotiate away their freedom to pursue their business in the most profitable manner. My preferred outcome from this debate would be that Swellnet has the courage to admit the truth: that they magnify crowds at the locations they publicise and that they do this for a simple profit motive. If they want to salve their consciences then they might let us know exactly what they give back to the sport. Do they sponsor disabled surfing? School surfing? Anything at all other than promotional junkets for the pros?

I know that some people might see this as all very trivial (get over your masculinity issues stuz......soft cock jeeessus what decade are we in?) but if you have observed the degradation of the recreational value of surfing over the last thirty years or so it is terrifying to think where it might be in another thirty. Big issue? Probably not but I would like to think that future generations living locally would be able to enjoy some of what we have had.

Blindboy,

Have you written to all the companies using surfing's image to sell their products? Have you written to all the production companies that made those ads? Have you written to Mark Warren about his Atlas of Australian Surfing? Have you spoken to your shaper who makes surfboards thereby crowding the surf? Have you written to the makers of Gidget, Pointbreak, North Shore and Blue Crush? Have you written to Quiksilver? Have you written to Kelly Slater?

All those people have helped crowd the surf. All of them did it for a profit motive.

Swellnet, as long as you provide a public forum you'll always get attacked by dills like Blindboy. They won't always have such fitting names though.

Right on Blindboy. You speak the truth and I see your comments are no way born from self interest. Clif you are right my concern about rural reports is related to the future. Currently it would not make economic sense but I am guessing you, Blindboy, me and many others have enjoyed some great times pre daily surf reports and I wonder with much concern how the current situation relates to the past & how it will shape the future? Hope to see you 2 guys on an empty bank somewhere down the country one day.

I see your comments are no way born from self interest.

By: "nev89"

So you and Blindboy are denouncing surfcameras so everyone else can get uncrowded surf, not yourselves?

Heals, have a reread of the thread, mate. I haven't been denouncing surf cameras at all. I dispute they have the magnitude of effect being claimed. I have also been debating Blindboy and Nev, it's been a civil debate to date too. As such, I do hope that they get the uncrowded waves they want. We all would like that, of course. Good luck to 'em. me, well, I realise the cameras are here to stay so I will continue to be imaginative and surf those ledges nobody else really wants a piece of. Pain is my friend :-P

heals I have a long history of being loudly critical of the exploitation of surfing's image in a variety of media...probably longer than you have been alive, maybe even before your Daddy met your Mummy. I resigned from a position in a major Australian surf company in 1979 because I didn't like the direction they were taking. I have talked to Mark Warren many times and we agree to disagree, I can't claim to have talked to the makers of the movies you quote but I can claim to have talked to most of the cast of Big Wednesday as it was being shot as well as the major water photographer. I have had close friendships with the owners or senior managers of many of the largest Australian surf companies. I can't claim to have met Kelly Slater but I think I can claim to know just about every well known surfer from Midget Farrelly to somewhere around Tom Carroll. I still see many of them regularly in the water. We don't tend to discuss these issues much anymore but they all have a pretty good idea of what I think. It's not personal, we just have different values. You don't need to defend Swellnet, I'm sure Stu and Ben will take a shot at me sooner or later....am I a dill? Well we all are at some point but personally I would have to admit I have dome things in my past that make these posts look like works of genius. It'll probably work out much the same for you heals.

" Pain is my friend" I like that clif. There are rocks along this coastline I have had a close personal relationship with for many years.

I won't be having a shot at you Blindboy, I've had my say. Put me in the same category as those friends you don't discuss things with anymore. You're free to say whatever you like on here. Within reason of course...

heals I have a long history of being loudly critical of the exploitation of surfing's image in a variety of media...probably longer than you have been alive, maybe even before your Daddy met your Mummy. I resigned from a position in a major Australian surf company in 1979 because I didn't like the direction they were taking. I have talked to Mark Warren many times and we agree to disagree, I can't claim to have talked to the makers of the movies you quote but I can claim to have talked to most of the cast of Big Wednesday as it was being shot as well as the major water photographer. I have had close friendships with the owners or senior managers of many of the largest Australian surf companies. I can't claim to have met Kelly Slater but I think I can claim to know just about every well known surfer from Midget Farrelly to somewhere around Tom Carroll. I still see many of them regularly in the water. We don't tend to discuss these issues much anymore but they all have a pretty good idea of what I think. It's not personal, we just have different values. You don't need to defend Swellnet, I'm sure Stu and Ben will take a shot at me sooner or later....am I a dill? Well we all are at some point but personally I would have to admit I have dome things in my past that make these posts look like works of genius. It'll probably work out much the same for you heals.

By: "blindboy"

Sounds to me like you've got a problem. Odd man out syndrome. I think you're living in the past. Times change. Technology improves. Life goes on. Get over it.

In my experience, it hasn't been cams that have contributed to crowding - I find its pretty hard to see exactly what the banks are doing in my area from cams anyway. I think that surf forecasting and real-time swell graphs have had a far bigger effect on crowds. Today was a case in point - as a Perth dweller, waves are infrequent in summer, and the lack of banks along the usual beachbreak stretch mean that a well known 'point' (its not really a point, more a pile of sand in the corner at the end of a beach) becomes the only wave with decent shape. This has meant heavy summer crowding for decades whenever there is swell. Today the temp was 42 degreees, and on such a day in summer that natural assumption would have historically been that the surf would be tiny. However, techno change meant that everyone in fact knew there would be solid waves, and the net result was probably 70+ guys in the water at that one break by 7am. Now I'm as guilty as any - without surf forecasting and swell buoys I probably would have assumed no swell, and not realised until it was too late. Thre thing is, we all use the technology, and so can we get annoyed at other people when they do too? Maybe the situation on the east coast works differently, but you don't need a cam in Perth to tell you that there is only one place with a bank between November and May.

My apologies Clif, I read your name and assumed you had taken the same stance as the other two. I have corrected my post.

Blindboy, I think we've both underestimated each other as I thought you were younger. From your language it sounds like you think I am too. I'm 52 so I'm assuming we're in similar age brackets.

I come from the position of having seen many irrational lunges at aspects of surfing over the years: legropes, bodyboards, radio forecasts. The threats posed were all unfounded and the dramas that seemed so important in the moment amounted to nothing in the end. Seen it, done it, learnt from it.

I put surf cameras as the latest in that queue. The latest scapegoat to blame and direct negative energy toward. We'll move along though, soon all urban beaches will have surf cameras and it won't matter. Think about it, you can view twenty cameras but you can only go to one.

By then there'll be something else to get angry about though.

I still can't get over the irony of people complaining about surfcams in a forum hosted on a website that is primarily a forecasting/reporting/surfcam site. Oh yeah thats right you're only here for the news and videos. Sounds like the excuse we make for buying porno mags - "Oh well I only get them for the articles"..... ;D

(Hey admins when can we get some proper smilies?)

Angry? Me? Nah I just like putting my opinion out there. Cameras everywhere? Well at least that's an original thought. I'm not sure that the result would be what you predict though heals.

This might stir things up a bit.

Link

I'm surprised no one has pointed the finger at this site (and others) yet.

I have one question for blindboy....

- Have you ever used Swellnet for a surf report and / or looked at a webcam?

If the answer is yes then..well, you draw your own conclusions......

And if you really do feel so strongly about problems with webcams causing crowding - then perhaps point your browswer to http://www.coastalwatch.com/contact/contactus.aspx - cw has more web cams than they know what to do with. Geez - they even have more than one cam at some breaks. As far as I can see - at least Swellnet makes some effort to respect local breaks. Remember how cw cams at Narra used to get destroyed while the Swellnet cam was not touched. I wonder why that happended? Giving respect gains respect

I hope in 10 years time I don't find myself whingeing about how it's not "like the good old days" and making a big song and dance about how (almost) famous I was.....

"I can claim to have talked to most of the cast of Big Wednesday as it was being shot as well as the major water photographer. I have had close friendships with the owners or senior managers of many of the largest Australian surf companies. I can't claim to have met Kelly Slater but I think I can claim to know just about every well known surfer from Midget Farrelly to somewhere around Tom Carroll."

I would feel like a right royal prick writing something like that. Particularly at your (implied) age....

Perhaps time to move on eh blindboy......

Maybe if the cam owners talked to the local surfers and didnt go the back door with the surfclubs there wouldnt be so much hostility towards them. A good example is CW cam at NN, the locals pleaded with CW to locate it somewhere else and they refused. Praise the lord they finally got the message.

I do i agree with the fact that it might over populate a certain break but to have a surfcam there must mean its a main beach anyway so i dont see any difference having a surfcam there or not.
Cheers Zac

I have to say, there is a bigger problem than surfcams.
It is mobile phones.
zz zz zz zz zz "Hey dude, I'm here at xzy point and it's goin' orf. Tell Bill and Jack and I'll call Rob and Joe. Should be a great sesh..........."
Sometimes I feel like grabbimg the phone and tossing it into the ocean.
Hey DUDE! STFU!

yeah, why surf with a few when you can surf with a crowd.

mindless really, just like the passive acceptance of surf cams & reports.

and how many brain cells do guys have that buy boards off guys who also pimp for surf report sites. talking about crapping in your own nest.

I've seen a guy walk up snatch the phone out of a guys hand,told the guy on the other end it was crap and already too crowded so dont bother , gave the phone back and told the guy not to bother paddling out.PRICELESS

and how many brain cells do guys have that buy boards off guys who also pimp for surf report sites. talking about crapping in your own nest.

By: "nev89"

seven.

ive got seven brain cells. p'raps thats why your logic dont make sense to me.

I'm surprised no one has pointed the finger at this site (and others) yet.

By: "poket-roket"

seen coastalwatchs new snapper cam technology? how long till they all have this?

I haven't had a look at that herman but I've been thinking there might actually be a few non-surfing issues arising from higher resolution or controllable cameras. You are probably aware that you would be arrrested as a pedophile if you walked up and down the beach videoing young people. If the technology gets to the stage where you are in effect able to perve on people in or out of the water using a surf cam then legal issues should drive them back to low resolution.

Personally I dislike the spread of surveillance technology generally and, while its not quite the issue we have beenn discussing, surf cams have the potential to invade privacy. There are very legitimate reasons for not wanting certain people to know where you are, and I'm not just talking about your boss on your "sickie". It might be a bit of a stretch at the moment but the cams would not need to improve much for people to be recognisable....some probably are now if they happen to have a distinctive board or wet suit.

It seems to be a severe case of overkill, between cams and the buoys you can get exactly the same information anyway. seems more to be a case of what the companies will do to stay ahead and that type of thinking worries me.

Never really thought about privacy before, I guess cameras could be used for that reason.

what about those crew that like using cams? not for perving but for surfing.

not that im among em, i couldn't care one way or another. but someones using them.