Australia - you're standing in it
GuySmiley wrote:AndyM wrote:stunet wrote:Morrissey at his most melodramatic couldn't have topped those last two posts.
In fact Andy, your one is better sung out loud in a Morrissey croon.
Dunno, how are we not a vassal state?
In any case, I shall be at the bar, with my head on the bar.
After all, I bear more grudges than lonely High Court judges.Vassal state since Pine Gap the subs only locks us in, meet you at the bar
Agree, around that time.
The Dismissal and Pine Gap were related.
Paul Keating spells out the flaws and implications in AUKUS and how Albo is the deer in the UK / US headlights with the cheque book.
Some points:
-Subs too big for shallow Aust waters
- huge size means easier to find
- at any one time only 3 of 6 will be at sea in a very big ocean - they can shoot some torpedos, no more than that. They can't perform magic.
- they are designed to sit off China to contain China, not defend a continent like Australia.
- Chinese invasion of Australia is an impossibility
- 50 Collins Class subs for the same cost.
It is a hugely entertaining interview.
Keating shoots down a parade of lame journalist questions like ducks in a shooting gallery.
You can see the fear in their eyes as they confront a combative knowledgeable intellect.
frog wrote:It is a hugely entertaining interview.
Keating shoots down a parade of lame journalist questions like ducks in a shooting gallery.
You can see the fear in their eyes as they confront a combative knowledgeable intellect.
I watched the interview in full last night. Keating raised some very valid points in his very direct way.
Will be interesting to see how the msm etc handle these. My guess will be they attack Keating as out of touch, nuts etc but will not go anywhere near the issues he has raised.
Labor should be holding their heads down in shame. Pathetic, wonder if some will start to come out against it now?
The beetoota advocate….. pure gold ;)
And the Keating interview - if only our current leaders had this level of honesty, intellect, ability and common sense.
-Here is a perfect example of what is going on ;)
Eddie, James Earl Jones and the woman are the spitting image of aukus.
It’s true to form ;);)
No prizes for guessing who is Australia…
- We may as well get used to being somebody’s bitch, unfortunately it’s the only thing we seem capable of now ;)
https://m.
Yes they will attack him. But some of his points are just too simple and clear cut to argue against.
For a massive cost, Australia will end up with 3 maybe 4 active torpedo shooters at any one time to defend a huge coast.
The US will require them to sit off China as part of THEIR fleet waiting for something that will never happen (invasion of Australia or the US would be impossibly difficult) but in practice to further US geopolitical goals of being able to call themselves top dog forever on our cheque book.
So maybe one or two active in Australian waters at any one time - next to useless.
China is flat out working out ways to find and destroy big torpedo shooters in their waters.
Our defence policy has suffered a silent invasion of its own by the US.
Yes @tonyowright Paul Keating seems to have initiated divorce proceedings from his Labor Party .. like Malcolm Fraser leaving the Libs. Again this is over US domineering of Australia’s foreign/defence policy. Both Fraser & Keating distressed about our loss of sovereignty. pic.twitter.com/DPtmoUnkrf
— Quentin Dempster (@QuentinDempster) March 15, 2023
Im sure all the current military/defence experts behind the scenes that advise the government have a far far better idea of every aspect of the issue, than one of our worst PM's ever who is only remembered for "the recession we had to have"
US just did a monumental number on Australia.
A classic manufacturing consent and shock doctrine scenario.
Australia has finally buckled under the sustained, brute force, relentless "China-threat" "China-invade-Taiwan" information and psychological warfare and terror campaign by the US government, media, think tanks and defence corporations designed to capture Australia and cement it as a US vassal state and achieve a large scale transfer of wealth from the Australian taxpayer to the US wealth elites.
It's a truely devastating outcome for Australia and its future.
Keating (and many others) are right about everything.
China threat to Australia = Iraq WMD.
If they are saying 380 billion it will end up being a few trillion. The ASC at Osborne would spend a billion to build a canoe. This project will make the Collins class build look like a kids school project and look at all the problems they had with that. If only we had someone of Keatings wit and intelligence running the show now. Still waiting for the power price cuts Albo.
old-dog wrote:If they are saying 380 billion it will end up being a few trillion.
I don't disagree with that...Governments and prudent budgeting, cost control...
indo-dreaming wrote:Im sure all the current military/defence experts behind the scenes that advise the government have a far far better idea of every aspect of the issue, than one of our worst PM's ever who is only remembered for "the recession we had to have"
Yeah the current military experts in the USA concerned with their the USA's national interest, not Australia's. Hawke/ Keating government who set Australia up for decades of prosperity cleaning up mess left by Fraser and Howard govt, (you know the treasurer (Howard) who saw our highest interest rates ever). Hawke/ Keating govt still remembered as the best Australian government in recent times.
There, fixed it for you.
https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2023/03/14/submarines-may-become-obsol...
"But this tide is turning. Subs in the ocean are large, metallic anomalies that move in the upper portion of the water column. They produce more than sound. As they pass through the water, they disturb it and change its physical, chemical and biological signatures.
They even disturb Earth's magnetic field and nuclear subs unavoidably emit radiation.
Science is learning to detect all these changes, to the point where the oceans of tomorrow may become transparent. The submarine era could follow the battleship era and fade into history.
"Our key result was that the oceans are, in most circumstances, at least likely (probability 75 per cent) and from some perspectives very likely (probability 90 per cent) to become transparent by the 2050s."
Big and scary deterrents or a handful of easily broken eggs in one basket?
I bet Albo and the Defence experts don't really know.
Even if they remain hard to detect can two or three patrolling our huge coast do much?
Im sure all the current military/defence experts behind the scenes that advise the government have a far far better idea of every aspect of the issue, than one of our worst PM's ever who is only remembered for "the recession we had to have"[/quote
At least he told the truth. Even when the truth made him unpopular. Shows a lot more political courage than any liberal leader since. Probably a good indication he’s telling the truth.I think he was also responsible for superannuation.
Yep we should bring back good government aka LNP.
We could save money on ministers and just have Scomo Minister for everything!
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/15/scott-morrison-al...
Few thoughts on Keating and subs:
Any thought about 'throwing toothpicks at the mountain', dividing cost per sub, or even when they're gonna be ready, is missing the point that we've not bought subs but an alliance.
Thirty years ago, no-one...read: NO-ONE...knew China would ascend the global order as fast as they did. Western academics and pundits were praising Francis Fukuyama for correctly predicting the "end of history" - i.e the triumph of Western liberalism. So take anyone's prediction about where China will be, and what they'll be doing, thirty years from now with a large grain of Ajinomoto.
The subs amount could be considered eye watering except I've kinda lost that optical response after seeing $90B thrown at COVID over two years, only to turn and carry on. I see it as four times the COVID response but over a far greater period. Granted, the money could do a great many things in Australia: build hospitals, schools, even artificial reefs.
There is potential for subsidiary manufacturing to be borne out of Adelaide's docks. We need domestic manufacturing; most people recognise that. Possibly the decision was made knowing Labor's decarbonisation/renewable sector jobs aren't stacking up, so this is a Plan B.
I understood the motivation for globalisation post-WW2. Distrust and animosity between stranger states tore Europe apart, yet cross-border trade created economic ties that made for peace and co-operation, yet this 'global liberalism' has gone too far, coming at the expense of culture and autonomy, and also creating vulnerabilities: loss of manufacturing for high wage countries, trade reliance, ports sold to overseas interests. History doesn't exist on a spectrum but a pendulum, and a dawning realisation is seeing the arm slow and move back the other way.
Much of Keating's spray was about Australian sovereignty. I wonder what he made of Hamilton's 'Silent Invasion' and the CCP's clandestine fronts subverting Australian democracy? Yeah, the US has done similar dastardly things but at least they're a transparent democracy with a press both here and OS that will speak truth to power. May not always be MSM, but the same can't remotely be said of the Chinese press, or even the capabilities of the Oz press, as per Hamiton's examples, including himself who had his book cancelled before it was released under CCP pressure.
And how much of Keating's spray was legacy protection? He sat (still sits?) on the board of the Chinese Development Bank, and has been generally outspoken about the rise of China. In general, that's a good thing, pulling a billion people out of poverty should be admired, but not at the expense of geopolitical realities.
Also wonder about Keating's sudden interest in soveriegnty when he threw us to the neoliberal wolves with a raft of privatisation sales and scrapping import tariffs. Yeah, again, perhaps they were events that fitted the times, but in hindsight have led us down a worrying path.
EDIT: All that said I simply don't know which way I swing on it though some artificial reefs would be good.
I suspect China's main ambitions (excluding Taiwan and the South China Sea) lie more in using a host of non military means to exert influence across the globe.
- Trade mercantilism (winning for them not so much others)
- Loans to control countries and organisations of interest by debt
- Using buying power to dictate terms to suppliers and countries like Aust
- Intellectual property "acquisition"
- cyber stuff
- Technology leadership
- Dominance in key strategic industries
- Resource ownership
- Vertical integration from resource to end product so profits from supplying countries mineral wealth are hidden and end up in China.
- Buy up land, property
- Buy influence overtly and covertly
- Infiltrate political parties and influential organisations with China aligned influencers
- Facilitate western social disintegration (Tik Tok!), wokeness etc.
- Avoiding western style bubble economics dangers (they went down this path but now trying to escape it)
- control to varying degrees of the Chinese Diaspora
This is all in full swing with a long term view.
A few more Nuclear Subs don't counter these efforts.
stunet wrote:...the point that we've not bought subs but an alliance.
It's not an alliance. It's a military bloc under the authoritarian dictatorship of the US in which Australia has no power.
But I agree with the general sentiment of the statement in that the subs are not the point. They're more like a deflection and distraction away from two main problems.
1. The first is the increased strangulation of Australia by the US and the continued importing of the US's economic, cultural and social problems and economic-political model. The US is run like a private, for-profit corporation whose spending and efforts are focused on military capabilities and adventurism, and on enriching the already wealthy elite, while sweeping its social problems under the rug, and in the process allowing the growth of a large, neglected and festering underbelly of poverty, disadvantage, crime, homelessness, etc.
2. China is not a threat, but if we keep going down the path of creating military blocs against China, engaging in an arms race in the region, pressuring China on Taiwan particularly by militarising Taiwan and supporting the pro-independence and anti-China political party, continuing to enforce economic and technological etc sanctions on China, etc - the list of what the West is currently doing to contain and roll back to China is endless - China will indeed become a military threat to Australia. We're moving from a situation of China not a threat to making absolutely sure that China is a threat.
stunet wrote:Thirty years ago, no-one...read: NO-ONE...knew China would ascend the global order as fast as they did. Western academics and pundits were praising Francis Fukuyama for correctly predicting the "end of history"...
This is so inaccurate I'm surprised you'd put it in writing. The West has been directly and deeply engaged with, and observing and commentating the rise and development of China for 40 years now. There is absolutely nothing new or of surprise here.
Actually, the real problem here is the West's mistaken hope that we were going to be able to influence China and convert it into becoming another liberal democracy and capitalist economy, but China has refused to do this and instead followed its own development path and model.
This is what the West is really most pissed off with and what this whole situation is about.
Everything about the rise of China based on its unique and particularly peaceful development model and path is an absolutely damning refutation of everything the West stands for and everything the West, particularly the US post WW2, stands for and has fought endless wars in the name of.
China's rise and everything about China strikes a deep and damaging blow at the heart and very foundation of the whole neoliberal Western capitalist war machine model of development and growth by conquest and plundering.
stunet wrote:Few thoughts on Keating and subs:
Any thought about 'throwing toothpicks at the mountain', dividing cost per sub, or even when they're gonna be ready, is missing the point that we've not bought subs but an alliance.
Thirty years ago, no-one...read: NO-ONE...knew China would ascend the global order as fast as they did. Western academics and pundits were praising Francis Fukuyama for correctly predicting the "end of history" - i.e the triumph of Western liberalism. So take anyone's prediction about where China will be, and what they'll be doing, thirty years from now with a large grain of Ajinomoto.
The subs amount could be considered eye watering except I've kinda lost that optical response after seeing $90B thrown at COVID over two years, only to turn and carry on. I see it as four times the COVID response but over a far greater period. Granted, the money could do a great many things in Australia: build hospitals, schools, even artificial reefs.
There is potential for subsidiary manufacturing to be borne out of Adelaide's docks. We need domestic manufacturing; most people recognise that. Possibly the decision was made knowing Labor's decarbonisation/renewable sector jobs aren't stacking up, so this is a Plan B.
I understood the motivation for globalisation post-WW2. Distrust and animosity between stranger states tore Europe apart, yet cross-border trade created economic ties that made for peace and co-operation, yet this 'global liberalism' has gone too far, coming at the expense of culture and autonomy, and also creating vulnerabilities: loss of manufacturing for high wage countries, trade reliance, ports sold to overseas interests. History doesn't exist on a spectrum but a pendulum, and a dawning realisation is seeing the arm slow and move back the other way.
Much of Keating's spray was about Australian sovereignty. I wonder what he made of Hamilton's 'Silent Invasion' and the CCP's clandestine fronts subverting Australian democracy? Yeah, the US has done similar dastardly things but at least they're a transparent democracy with a press both here and OS that will speak truth to power. May not always be MSM, but the same can't remotely be said of the Chinese press, or even the capabilities of the Oz press, as per Hamiton's examples, including himself who had his book cancelled before it was released under CCP pressure.
And how much of Keating's spray was legacy protection? He sat (still sits?) on the board of the Chinese Development Bank, and has been generally outspoken about the rise of China. In general, that's a good thing, pulling a billion people out of poverty should be admired, but not at the expense of geopolitical realities.
Also wonder about Keating's sudden interest in soveriegnty when he threw us to the neoliberal wolves with a raft of privatisation sales and scrapping import tariffs. Yeah, again, perhaps they were events that fitted the times, but in hindsight have led us down a worrying path.
EDIT: All that said I simply don't know which way I swing on it though some artificial reefs would be good.
Personally, I would prefer artificial reefs!
Saying that, is it really in Australia's national interest to be so tied in with the USA? Could there not be another path? Keep alliance but do it more on our terms, or have we been given this option only as a take it or leave it? The article from The Saturday Paper you posted yesterday implied the sub deal would unlikely eventuate for various reasons.
You mentioned that no one could predict that China would grow so quickly etc.
That is correct, but no one can predict what state the USA (or UK) will be in in 30 years into the future. Another Trump or someone similar presidency could change the whole deal. Who is to say the USA doesn't transform into a dysfunctional dictatorial state with its own internal problems. Unlikely I know, but no one thought Trump would win, and the Capital shenanigans was not a great display of a functioning democracy.
Anyway it looks like it is locked in now, but reckon Labor may have screwed themselves for the next election, the budget/ economy was looking iffy before this commitment. Where is the money (new taxes) coming from and what cuts will need to take place?
Especially if China respond with trade war like sanctions, last time I checked they were our biggest and most important trading partner.
Stu and bonza have mentioned ‘Silent Invasion’
I recommend ‘Spies and Lies’ by Alex Joske.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60882259
Alex is a super smart young fella, Ive met him a couple of times now and am super impressed with his knowledge, insight and humility. His book pulls apart the CCP influence / subversion / elite capture playbook. There’s a couple of chapters on Australia too.
‘There are only a handful of researchers in Australia of whom it can be said their work has a truly global impact. Alex is one of them.' – Clive Hamilton, author of Silent Invasion
@etarip,
Cheers for the recommened. Hamilton's recent biography was also insighful in that he opines about that period in his life; how friends who were political travellers severed ties, how some wrote whataboutism opeds about him, and also how he formed unlikely alliances with people across the political spectrum (James Patterson, Andrew Hastie).
It was a case study in dropping all ideology and assessing what you see in front of you through a singular lens. Joske gets many mentions in that bio.
@gsco,
You say a statement of mine is "so inaccurate" that you're surprised I put it in writing, and one paragraph later you write almost the very same thing?
Costello and 9 would never think to destabilise a Labor govt ey....
Got Robodebt off the media cycle.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/16/pretentious-hyper...
Which paragraph Stu?
The situation here is the West got its hopes up that China was going to become a democracy and capitalist system and allow the West in with “unrestricted access”, which appeared to be the path China was going down. You only need to looks at the review of etarip’s book recommendation to see that.
Xi Jinping put an end to this slow hopeful transition and in general developed China into a country that the West can’t rape and pillage like it did in the century of humiliation.
The West absolutely can’t stand this, that it can’t have it way with China and exploit it like it did and still does to this day to so many countries and peoples in the past few hundred years.
As a result we are just witnessing a great power rivalry between two fairly different and apposing ideological, political, economic and cultural, etc, systems. In this power struggle the West does not want to relinquish its hegemony it has enjoyed post WW2 and is understandably doing everything in its power to hold on, and it want open access to China on its own terms to make money from it and basically rape it.
In Australia we’re relentlessly and endlessly brainwashed by being bombarded with extremely one-sided, biased, fabricated anti-China fear mongering media and political commentary. It’s just information and psychological warfare and outright fear mongering terror inflicted on the population that draws on our embedded and engrained racism in order to infect us with a deep rooted fear of China, that China is a military threat to our safety and a threat to our liberal democracy, market economy and overall way of life. Etarip’s and Bonza’s book recommendations are perfect examples of this fear campaign.
The overwhelming majority of the Australian population falls hook line and sinker for this biased media and political coverage since they have no independent personal experience with or interest in China or its people, culture, history, society, development path, current trajectory, language, etc. They have no alternative information upon which to base judgement apart from western media disinformation and propaganda courtesy of the US lies machine. The Australian population is just brainwashed and is unable to have independence thoughts on the issue.
We are just in an age of great power rivalry and the first casualty of war is the truth.
I would have thought this is all just common sense.
Lol GSCO the shoulder chip is large on you. Yet that outrage does sound familiar.
@etarip thanks. On my list
Stunet nails it.
Subs deal aside - I mean what the fck did people expect. It’s an alliance and a necessary one to counterweight CCP aggression in the region and to Australia. Not sure how anyone missed the last 10 years as a period of militant espionage and open hostility. Protecting one’s financial interests and political legacies can have that affect I guess. I’m sure everyone Is familiar with the infamous 14 demands. That’s some tone deaf shit right there for the new would be colonists.
I suppose the question for me is will this deal now give the CCP pause to question their ongoing international aggressive quest. Would it be raising eyebrows about CCP inner circle authoritarian tactics given the aukus agreement response? Or will it be a red rag to a bull(y)?
The way @gsco writes about China is fascinating. What a great country it must be, we should all pack our bags and move over there. Sing our praises to the supreme leader. Why live in such evil, corrupted, manipulative developed western country as Australia or the US?
GSCO world view is very simple. “Nothing we think we know is real”.
Unless its approved by and or gushing of the CCP and its version of China.
Couldn't agree more Flollo, he has to be the most deluded individual in Australia.
I do my best to just ignore the Rubbish that comes out of his posts.
Todays one was no different "unique and particularly peaceful development model and path" I don't think i have ever read a more ridiculous statement in my life.
I think everyone should just ignore his posts and hopefully he fark off!
Oh well AUKUS porkus here we come. For better or worse.
If the ABC News is any guide, ranks have closed and the political shield wall is up to repel critics.
And, Keating's Shakespearian performance and masterclass in showing the shallowness of current debate have been deftly swept aside as being from yesterday's man.
Keating is a little too optimistic on the CCP agenda but had some valid points on the limitations of the big subs for defending Australia, the price tag, the likely limits to China's territorial ambitions and US motivations.
if you have to pick a team, maybe don't choose the one that says you are gum on their shoe
@gsco.
Have you read Alex Joske’s book? I’d say it’s less fear mongering, and more of an expose on the naïveté of the West to how China was / is willing to ‘play the game’.
While the subject of his book is the CCP and its closely intertwined apparatus for foreign intelligence, subversion and influence, the target of his criticism isn’t China. It’s us.
It’s all part of the strategy. It’s smart. Couple that with the ruthless approach to the game of ‘trade’ as outlined in this article I posted a few weeks back https://tnsr.org/2022/12/chinas-brute-force-economics-waking-up-from-the... it’s a fully fledged assault on the existing system and it’s players. It isn’t a military assault, but it doesn’t have to be.
What’s your recommended approach? Just bend over and take it? Hope that it’s going to be OK?
Don’t play the racism card. The vast majority of thinking people can make the distinction between Chinese people and the CCP. Some idiots can’t / won’t, but I’m sure that there are simple-minded people in China too. This is systemic competition. The world has woken up to it. It’s not just the US. Everyone has clued on.
What happened to bide and hide? What’s with the development of a blue water navy if they’re as peaceful as you say. What’s with the militarisation of the SCS. What’s with the employment of lasers by coast guard, water cannon by the Maritime Militia against Vietnamese, and Filipino fishermen? What’s with the shadowing of Indonesian hydrocarbon exploration vessels by Chinese Coast Guard within the Indonesian EEZ?
There’s a level of naïveté that is at odds with your obvious intelligence.
I know you’ve spent plenty of time in China and have personal relationships with everyday peoples. You’ve mentioned interactions with local Party officials too, iirc. I value your perspective, but I balance that against the experiences and opinions of people who’ve grown up in China, studied China deeply, have served as diplomats and journalists in China. They love the Chinese people and culture. But they know the system better, and are pulling no punches about the intentions and actions of the CCP.
Interested what you think of John Garnaut?
Finally, subs / AUKUS. I don’t know if it’s the right call. Or whether it’s ‘good value’. I’ve got some thoughts on alternative approaches to submarines, but they all have strengths and weaknesses. But talk of ‘invasion’ is a complete straw man argument. Japan lacked the capability and will to invade Australia in WW2. It would be hard to argue that there wasn’t a significant threat to Australia at that point.
When @gsco talks about China and its worldview he conveniently narrows it down to current/recent issues with Taiwan being the obvious one. But when he talks about the west he goes decades, hundreds of years in the past, and aggregates all sorts of stuff to paint the horrible picture of pure evil.
Somehow, he and Keating have completely forgotten that the CCP controls the regime that committed unimaginable atrocities against humankind. If you narrow down the discussion to modern times and Taiwan some would say that I'm spreading some rubbish. But one doesn't need to go too far in the past (as @gsco always does with the west) to support my claims. I believe one of their first 'innovative' creations was the 'Anti-Right Campaign' followed by the 'Great Leap forward'. And if those purges were not enough mid-sixties to mid-seventies were spent on the 'Cultural Revolution' to make sure everyone 'gets the message'. And while Australians lived through the surfing revolution, enjoyed and explored our coastline, and traveled to Hawaii, the Chinese were prosecuted, murdered, exiled, put on a wall of shame, or died of famine at the count of millions. And as a cherry on the cake, the regime heavily supported the murderous of them all in Cambodia - Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge who did not hesitate to purge ~25% of their own population in the span of ~3 years.
When Nazi Germany fell in 1945 Nazi party was abolished, and made illegal. Nuremberg trials were held and we know the outcome of that. Pretty much the whole of Europe, including Germany banned Nazi symbols. But here we are in 2023 and CCP is still kicking strong. The main organisational architect of some of the worst atrocities the world has ever seen is very well alive. Sure, the main protagonists are long gone, and their successors have taken a more strategic approach. But let's be real here; if the worry of the world are local banks ripping people off or Pfizer shoving medications down our throats we should most definitely be worried or at least have some reservations about the CCP. It is perfectly reasonable and well justified as history indicates. And signing praises to them and presenting them like some higher moral ground is absurd.
etarip's linked article:
https://tnsr.org/2022/12/chinas-brute-force-economics-waking-up-from-the...
spells out where the real war has been fought right under our noses for two decades.
It was easy pickings aided by many in the west until very recently.
Buying some subs and making big military alliance announcements is much simpler than dealing with the non military threats.
If the subs are ‘throwing toothpicks at a mountain’ in the eyes of China, and a grave financial mistake that will lead to the ruin of Australia, why are they campaigning so hard against it? Aren’t you supposed to not interrupt an enemy when they are making a mistake?
Secondly, if DE subs are all you need for defensive operations, and China is not an aggressive country, and submarines will be rendered obsolete by emerging tech, why does China have so many of their own in service and in production? https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/china-submarine-capabilities/#:~:t....
Subs are more vulnerable to detection and attack when they surface. DE (conventional) subs have to surface every 3-4 days. Nuke subs don’t have to surface while on deployment. At all.
Finally, the emergence of drone and underwater surveillance tech does not spell the end of submarine viability and utility. Underwater Drones will be used as extended range sensors, escorts and torpedo catchers partners with crewed submarines within the next decade, same as manned combat aircraft will be complemented with unmanned aircraft like the Australian designed loyal wingman.
*standard caveat. I don’t know whether this deal is a good one. But I can understand the logic.
Thanks for the long responses.
The problem I have with our China debate in here is I can't tell if you're serious and actually believe what you're writing, or if you're just engaging in further biased, one-sided information warfare and narrative control.
The reason I have this problem is that in the past 3 years since I came back at the start of covid from living in China to living in Australia again and started checking the surfcams and contributing in these forums, nothing anyone has written on China in here can't be found in a news.com.au fear-mongering article or some fictional work of fear porn like the ones you, Stu, bonza etc keep mentioning (and yes I've read 'em all).
I'll assume you actually do believe what you're writing.
We in the West are in a warfare mode with China, in a great power and ideological rivalry. China is the only country with the economic, political and military power and might to stand up to the West, Yet ideologically, economically and politically, China is very different to us. China wants to participate in the international order and stand on the world stage as an equal among peers and be shown equal respect and given equal consideration. It believes its views, intentions, diplomacy, development model, ideas for the planet, etc, are equally valid and will be beneficial to the peace, wellbeing and prosperity of the world.
The West understandably doesn't want to have a bar of this; it wants to retain its hegemony and control, and not let China have a say. China's political and economic ideology is also a threat to and contradicts the West's.
As a result we are living squarely in the fog of war in which information is another weapon and the truth is lost. We particularly in Australia are squarely on one side of this battle. In fact it can be argued that we are the main country in the thick of it at war with China. Everything we see, read and hear about China is biased and one-sided due to being squarely within our side's attempt to control the information and narrative and in general within our side's information bubble and groupthink. We are completely indoctrinated into believing this one-sided and biased narrative. It is narrative control and groupthink at its absolutely cringeworthy worst. It is all horrible slandering, defaming, abusing and attacking of China (and China gives its best back in return).
flollo's last long post is a great case in point and illustrates things perfectly. It is so full of inaccuracies I wouldn't know where to start. I would highly recommend asking yourselves: Exactly where did you get your thoughts and beliefs about China from? Why do you believe these thoughts? What hard evidence do you have for them? Are you absolutely sure that any of these thoughts are even remotely accurate or true?
Every time someone in here writes something on China, all it confirms in my mind is that the overwhelming majority of people in Australia have no thoughts on China outside of the Western thought bubble, groupthink and narrative control, and abuse of China. Everyone just keeps posting links of articles and think tank pieces that echo the Western thought bubble. I believe the reason I think this is I've read and deeply studied both sides of the picture - both ours and China's thought bubbles, groupthinks and narratives - and I have some independent personal experience in China by which I'm also also able to make up my own mind, have independent thoughts, and form my own independent perspective on things. Paul Keating is in the same boat (but of course he is infinitely more experienced and wiser, has an infinitely deeper background in all areas of life, etc, than me).
The reason I continue to persist with these forums and in particular with our China debate is that we in the West are moving towards going to war with China based on a gigantic, monumental inaccurate, biased and one-sided thought bubble and groupthink, which is driven by an attempt of the US to retain its hegemony and not allow China to participate in the international order and on the world stage in its own way, on its own terms and with its own ideas. The West does not want to relinquish its and power or control over the peoples of this planet, or let China in as an equal.
The problem - and the main point I'm trying to make - is that I genuinely believe (as does Paul Keating and many others) that the West's fear, thought bubble and groupthink about China are an absolutely massive, monumental misread of China - of Chinese civilisation, its development path and model, its culture and people, its current trajectory and intentions on the world stage, and in particular its 5,000 year history.
Even a superficial reading of Chinese history in the standard, classical English language textbooks (ignoring Chinese history books) will result in one immediately realising that our Western thought bubble, group think and narrative is a monumental misread of Chinese civilisation and history. Chinese history does not in any way support whatsoever what we are indoctrinated and brainwashed into thinking about China and its intentions on the world stage. Our side's groupthink, thought bubble and narrative of Chinese history and civilisation is seriously inaccurate (even based on the classical English language historical textbooks). This is what Paul Keating is trying to argue.
I genuinely believe the West needs to make a gigantic U-turn on its course with China. The West doesn't understand or get China. The West has gotten China very badly wrong. It's a huge misread. We're heading towards war with China based on a huge groupthink mistake and misread, simply in an attempt to retain hegemony and try to control, oppress and subjugate China, hold it back from its growth and development, and not let it participate on the world stage with its own ideas.
At a time like this, in which we're heading for war, understanding, facts, truth, honesty, learning, cooperation, diplomacy, statecraft, communication, etc, are most important and crucial - not military blocs or outright slandering, abuse, defaming and personal attacks of China.
Instead of reading fictional fear porn narratives that stroke our most deeply held fears of the unknown, I'd suggest actually learning about China. To do this I'd suggest starting with spending the time and effort to slog through the standard, classical English language textbooks on Chinese history and civilisation (below). Then I'd suggest learning Mandarin Chinese and travelling around China (and Tibet) while reading Chinese history, visiting all the spots in the books you're reading, talking to Chinese people, reading history in the Chinese language in order to understand their perspective (and indeed their own biased, one-sided narrative, thought bubble and groupthink). I'd suggest spending some solid time in China working and learning with an open, beginner's mind. I'd suggest forming some independent thoughts for yourself outside of the Western narrative control and groupthink.
You will realise just how badly the West has gotten things with China. And heaven forbid, you might even grow to like China and see some positives in the civilisation.
Short, two-part question in response to your post, and an observation.
Q1. Is this misunderstanding entirely one-sided? Have Chinas actions contributed to this tension?
Q2. Do you expect that ‘the West’ (which is more than the US and Australia) and the rest of the world should / would stand by and allow the system that has been created to be upended and exploited by an emerging power that doesn’t play by the same rule book?
Observation. You seem to be mounting an argument that says that if you don’t have deep expertise in an area, country or culture, that you’re entirely unqualified to make observation or assessment about it. But then you discount the views of those who have greater experience and expertise than yourself where there conclusions differ from your own.
I’d put Joske and Garnaut in that category, two people I’ve met and spoken to about this topic. What are your criticisms of their experiences?
Great post gsco.
You are the most informed and intelligent person here, by far.
The talk by most commentators here is just that - all talk ;)
I have also travelled extensively in China and immersed myself in the culture. The real culture ;) Chinese people are amongst the most hard working and respectful people I have encountered. Same as my experience in Muslim countries and Muslim culture.
The narrative we create here is false. Complete lies. No different to our take on russians etc.
Australia is still a deeply racist and divided country - just like the US. Yes, we have an excellent standard of living and yes we have been on the ‘winning’ side of history for a while.
It’s not about picking a team. It is idiotic and short sighted to think so. China is not perfect - and neither are we. Both populations are being drawn into a political shitfight and both do not accurately represent the sentiment of either people.
Thinking we know stuff from propaganda driven fear mongering (on both sides) are burning the true capabilities of us existing together peacefully and respectfully. It is still possible.
And DAW.
Definitely A Wanker.
;)
https://m.
Money to burn . https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-17/tomahawk-guided-missile-us-sale-t... will we gift some to Ukraine ?
You know it is possible to separate the everyday people you meet from the actions and intentions of the leadership of their country, right?
Despite some of the very valid points put forward by Gsco and others above, and Keating is right about AUKUS, China is still a communist authoritarian state, like Russia, the West has democracy and freedom at it's core. I can go out in public or go on public forums like this and call Scott Morrison a fucking idiot, I can start a political party, I can vote, I can protest, I can practice Qigong, I could own Alibaba. In China if I tried any of that they would disappear me. So I support Western hegemony and Chinese containment, despite it's failings.
@gsco doesn’t even know where to start to address my claims? I suggest explaining the cultural revolution. It happened, didn’t happen? Was it good, bad? Enlighten us please?
According to him I need to learn end to end history of China and make sure I’m using specific sources. And once I master that in English I have to learn Mandarin and do the exact same thing. And once all of that is done I need to physically move to China and live there for some time. Finally, once all that is mastered I can ask a question about campaigns like cultural revolution. Actually, before asking a question I need to submit a detailed CV highlighting my ‘educational’ journey.
What a crazy logic that is.
“nothing anyone has written on China in here can't be found in a news.com.au fear-mongering article or some fictional work of fear porn like the ones you, Stu, bonza etc keep mentioning (and yes I've read 'em all).”
Seriously? The arrogance is next level. If it’s not labelling those who dare criticise the CCP as racist its labelling them with lacking the critical thinking skills to assess the information being presented and form an opinion. That’s a classic narcissistic characteristic where one holds the belief, they have been gifted with special access to some secret knowledge that the plebs around them can’t get.
It’s s such a dumb argument. Its dumb because we can easily throw it back at you e.g.:
“Everything gsco has written on China in here can't be found in a global times fear-mongering article or some fictional work of pro CCP porn like the ones…. keep mentioning (and yes I've read 'em all).”
Do you apply the same argument on everything else you observe? Does one have to live or immerse themselves with every experience or setting before they can dare form a judgement. You spent a few years in China. whoopeedo.
I can't add anything further than what etarip has put forward. He nails it. I haven’t seen anything from etarip, stunet nor me that can be considered abusive or attacking. We are simply commentating on what has been written by many experts. The arguments and observations they make are robust. Your responses show a lack of a maturity and a thin skin when dealing with criticism – an attitude which can be found in the Global times and other pro CCP media every day of the week. See what I did there.
Supafreak wrote:Money to burn . https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-17/tomahawk-guided-missile-us-sale-t... will we gift some to Ukraine ?
This is getting really fucked up.
Americas puppets 52nd state
Yeah lets go to war with China, what a fucken great idea
The US is a fast sinking ship, getting increasingly desperate as time goes on. The sooner we detach from them the better off as a nation we'll be. If you think cost of living is bad now...
Another perspective.....
https://michaelwest.com.au/i-just-want-a-nuclear-submarine-no-matter-the...
"You'e either with us or against us" showed us the real U.S.
"With them" means AUKUS and Trans-Pacific Partnership-style one way agreements and forced purchase of military gear.
And we all know what happens when the U.S. sees a someone as being against them.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-16/mark-humphries-looks-at-australia’s-new-submarine/102108094
AndyM wrote:"You'e either with us or against us" showed us the real U.S.
"With them" means AUKUS and Trans-Pacific Partnership-style one way agreements and forced purchase of military gear.
And we all know what happens when the U.S. sees a someone as being against them.
I’m not sure this is true with respect to the submarines. Pretty sure Australia were the ones pushing access to US sub tech and US were super reluctant. This is one of the major risks for the recently announcement acquisition. All subject to congressional approval at the point of sale.
US don’t make DE subs anymore. They weren’t in the original Collins’s replacement competition.
Reality is, if the Naval Group French submarine hadn’t been such a fkfight and so far behind schedule and over budget they wouldn’t have even thought about the nuke option. From what I understand, if the French hadn’t been such c*nts, Australia wouldn’t have walked away from it. Even if they still planned to try for nuke boats.
In the last couple of decades Australia has bought:
- German Armoured Fighting Vehicles
- Korean Self-Propelled Artillery
- British Frigates
- European helicopters (which completely sucked and are now being replaced by US platforms that they were acquired to replace…)
- Spanish Amphibious Assault ships.
- Italian tactical transport aircraft
Defence procurement is completely dysfunctional. If it were as easy as ‘buy what the US tells us to’ it would actually cost so much less. Instead we end up with Frankenstein’s monster programs that try to integrate disparate platforms, combat systems and local industry content. The main reason Defence programs are so shithouse is political shenanigans. Local Industry Content sounds great on paper, but because we lack a viable industrial base, it’s really f*king hard to pull off, so we taxpayers pay a shitload more for a substandard product (in a lot of cases) that requires *additional* money to integrate into whatever platform that has been directed that be bought.
What better place for a nuclear waste dump than the pristine Eyre Peninsula. Come to S.A. the glow in the dark state, two heads are better than one.
Good article by LT . https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-18/paul-keating-savage-mouth-aukus-q... If China starts ramping up its iron ore import do we simply keep sending it ?
The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.