Entering the climate change era.
Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:floyd wrote:Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:No shortage of coal in Vicco, so it's a win win situation :-)
I'm sorry, didn't realise I was dealing with an imbecile.
Mhhh..... calling me names doesn't really strengthen your position, Have you had more than 2 children to one woman or 2 children with 2 different partners? If you have you've done more damage to the environment by adding to the world population than me with my couldn't give a shit about it attitude.
"I've done more for this planet than most people"?
You seem a bit all over the place Hako, but that's cool, I understand. But I also need you to understand that just 'cos you've created a new account doesn't mean you're starting from scratch. There'll be no warnings like last time.
blindboy wrote:I've heard the holes left behind by the salt cause flatulence, did that happen to you Blowin?
It's the bubbles of nothing that make it really something.
Like drinking liquid honeycomb BB.
To be honest, less flatulism ,more orally released faecal matter.
stunet wrote:
Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:floyd wrote:Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:No shortage of coal in Vicco, so it's a win win situation :-)
I'm sorry, didn't realise I was dealing with an imbecile.
Mhhh..... calling me names doesn't really strengthen your position, Have you had more than 2 children to one woman or 2 children with 2 different partners? If you have you've done more damage to the environment by adding to the world population than me with my couldn't give a shit about it attitude.
"I've done more for this planet than most people"?
You seem a bit all over the place Hako, but that's cool, I understand. But I also need you to understand that just 'cos you've created a new account doesn't mean you're starting from scratch. There'll be no warnings like last time.
I concede , that line should read" I've done less harm to the planet than most people" as I'm generally to lazy to do anything about it, though I do carry a set of tongs, rubber gloves and industrial garbage bags to clean up the carpark when need be.
I'll take in your advice but I think you have me mistaken for someone else, but that's no surprise as they keep on calling me Andy when I signed up for realsurf :-))
Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:floyd wrote:Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:No shortage of coal in Vicco, so it's a win win situation :-)
I'm sorry, didn't realise I was dealing with an imbecile.
Mhhh..... calling me names doesn't really strengthen your position, Have you had more than 2 children to one woman or 2 children with 2 different partners? If you have you've done more damage to the environment by adding to the world population than me with my couldn't give a shit about it attitude.
And Floyd's called it!
floyd wrote:Instead of the desal plant in Vicco the government at the time (labor) could have entered into an agreement with tasmania to pipe water from one of its lakes.
its along time ago now but the details were the water catchment for the tassie lake gets a huge amount of rain each year (metres) , the water goes through a hydro plant before it flows to the sea.
a pipe could have captured the water after it left the hydro and under gravity the water would have flowed to vicco. the distance isn't a problem (longer in europe) and the fact that its under bass straight also not a problem ......... all for a fraction of the build cost of the desal plant and its on-going operational costs not to mention its incredibly low carbon footprint compared to the desal .........
Interesting idea but it seems Tassie currently has a water shortage.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/energy/cloudseeding-and-diesel-generators...
generators/?cs=95
indo-dreaming wrote:floyd wrote:Instead of the desal plant in Vicco the government at the time (labor) could have entered into an agreement with tasmania to pipe water from one of its lakes.
its along time ago now but the details were the water catchment for the tassie lake gets a huge amount of rain each year (metres) , the water goes through a hydro plant before it flows to the sea.
a pipe could have captured the water after it left the hydro and under gravity the water would have flowed to vicco. the distance isn't a problem (longer in europe) and the fact that its under bass straight also not a problem ......... all for a fraction of the build cost of the desal plant and its on-going operational costs not to mention its incredibly low carbon footprint compared to the desal .........
Interesting idea but it seems Tassie currently has a water shortage.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/energy/cloudseeding-and-diesel-generators...
generators/?cs=95
nice work indo ....
if you read the article carefully you will read Lake Pedder (or Lake Gordon) remains full. It holds 11,146 GL or 22 Sydney Harbours full of fresh water. I would suggest to you the water Victoria would have got would have been from that source/hydro scheme. Laker Pedder was a special place before it was flooded to become Lake Gordon .... check out the photos of Peter Dombrovskis ..... https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Peter+Dombrovskis+lake+pedder+photos&...
This dam remains the number one example in Australia why dams are bad for the environment.
Further, as the sheepster will testify, parts of Tassie are as dry as Vicco or SA summer after summer, particularly the North East and East coasts. I've been to Tassie many times and I can tell you it ranges from being as dry as a nun's nasty to as wet as a week reading your and Tones' comments on immigration. The NW and W coasts gets buckets of rain ..... loved Geography and the ability to read topographic maps since I was a kid, perhaps a skill not required on the Island, pretty flat over there.
stunet wrote:
Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:floyd wrote:Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:No shortage of coal in Vicco, so it's a win win situation :-)
I'm sorry, didn't realise I was dealing with an imbecile.
Mhhh..... calling me names doesn't really strengthen your position, Have you had more than 2 children to one woman or 2 children with 2 different partners? If you have you've done more damage to the environment by adding to the world population than me with my couldn't give a shit about it attitude.
"I've done more for this planet than most people"?
You seem a bit all over the place Hako, but that's cool, I understand. But I also need you to understand that just 'cos you've created a new account doesn't mean you're starting from scratch. There'll be no warnings like last time.
I don't get it this was a legitimate argument ( unless something else was posted and its since been removed ) .
Anyway , Floyd they would have had to pull water from the NW lakes in Tassie due to their elevation to gravity feed into a dam in the otways . Regardless then that isn't distributed beyond Geelong . The NW lakes are the real dry knew at the moment and I think you'll find that the catchments would be burnt out and water no good for a while .
You can say what you want about how bad dams are , but the reality is we are trying to get by on dams built in the 70's , that were only looking at quite low population rates. But now our biggest commodity is selling citizenships , we are in real trouble especially since all the latest imports love big families .
I was involved in the largest /longest running Desal prior to the major cities launching theirs . Infact they used our plant as the launching place when they announced the contract for the first city Perth . They are a huge French company that was involved in all the majors built through Australia . It's big business and get made and still are making a killing . Running or not running they cost us money , but I can guarantee once they start running and they go through the hours we will be wearing much higher costs . It's no use running them at the end of a drought . We haven't even reached a trigger point like 50 % it's still 62% ... If they wanted to justify em they could start running at the start of a forecast El Niño rather than at the end . If they started it at this time last year then I wouldn't even blink an eye lid , but now .., fucking shows how stupid they are .
The Nth Sth pipeline is not setup for pushing water nth . That was another stupid idea building it let alone not doing bidirectional . Again they don't use it as Nthn Vic is always the first to run dry , exasperated by environmental flows that were sent down a river system that naturally should be in drought . Anyone with water frontage on the river networks can legally take as much water as they like through as many pipes they like as long as they are under 50mm in diameter . I guarantee u in a drought year that there is no chance any environmental water reaches SA . Infact the CEO of GM water resigned after suss dealing where environmental water which was released to revive river banks prior to the Murray , but In reality the water that passed through was allocated to buyers . So we have man fiddling to maintain flows when nature says it should be drought ??? Let alone water deemed in Vic can be traded to Queensland !! Something not physically possible but financial transaction , where water is released here to replace what is stopped from coming down the darling river . Talk about fucking with the natural system .
Running this DESAL is purely political , and is to justify its existence . I can bet you that even though it's sat idle that we were about to be slugged with more cost as consumable equipment within the plant would have been due for replacement service due to set dates . So running it would mask these costs be absorbed as running costs .
And clearly they haven't or don't read BOM seasonal forecasts ( which are the most reserved of all ) that we are In for a wet start to Winter and most likely very wet spring .
Anyway the power generators will be happy to bring up their " base load " ......
southey wrote:stunet wrote:
Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:floyd wrote:Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote:No shortage of coal in Vicco, so it's a win win situation :-)
I'm sorry, didn't realise I was dealing with an imbecile.
Mhhh..... calling me names doesn't really strengthen your position, Have you had more than 2 children to one woman or 2 children with 2 different partners? If you have you've done more damage to the environment by adding to the world population than me with my couldn't give a shit about it attitude.
"I've done more for this planet than most people"?
You seem a bit all over the place Hako, but that's cool, I understand. But I also need you to understand that just 'cos you've created a new account doesn't mean you're starting from scratch. There'll be no warnings like last time.
I don't get it this was a legitimate argument ( unless something else was posted and its since been removed ) .
" ......
Southy , I think the population argument is a bit sensitive and a lot of people who have more than 2 children get their heckles up as it has been said many time (though not too loudly) by experts that population growth is the the most damaging factor to the environment and economy of any country.
We live in a world where if you are unable to have kids you are pitied and if you choose not to have kids you are considered not normal, believe me Ive been told often enough. That's my 2 cents worth.
much truth in what you say southey
Those images of Lake Pedder are arresting. Truchanas and Dombrovskis' work is stunningly beautiful, but Olegas Truchanas lost many of his photos in the 1967 fires. Did any of the older guys here get to visit the place before it was flooded?
This thread is probably a good place to quote the great man:
" If we can revise our attitudes towards the land under our feet; if we can accept a role of steward and depart from the role of conqueror; if we can accept the view that man and nature are inseparable parts of the unified whole-then Tasmania can be a shining beacon in a dull, uniform and largely artificial world."
It's quite amazing that Lake Pedder was dammed, looks like the lakes surrounding Wanaka now!
Here's some photos from a trip I did a bit over a year ago, Tassie is Australia's best kept secret!
hey Craig
Nice shots I agree Tassie is special. I say that we mainlanders joke about Tasmanians and New Zealanders all the time but really the joke is on us coz I reckon where they live is way way better than what we have. I also take your point about Wanaka, man that place is nuts ... summer biking winter skiing. Rob Roy Glacier etc etc http://www.wanakabiketours.co.nz/heli-bike-tours/
I didn't get to see Lake Pedder before the flood but its destruction focused everyone's mind on stoping the Franklin being damed, now that I had a hand in. Lake Pedder was world unique because of the land locked sand beaches.
@ velocityjohnno, thanks for the quote and link, very powerful
I'll steer clear of the whole "end is nigh" thing... For now.... lol
But on a common sense "right now" aspect, what sort of morons continue to grow rice in a semi arid sub tropical region that has had droughts since the dreamtime, and is reliant on wet season rains running down from qld? And what sort of peanut brains continue to grow cotton in another very "hit and miss" rainfall region, when non stoner hemp could be grown there using 1/2 the fucking water and less chemicals??
Why isn't rice production moved to to the tropics? Why hasn't hemp been utilized? When more water is returned to the Murray via these 2 quite simple steps, catchments can installed along the nsw/vic border.... Problem solved......
Next..........
Just a word on NZ....sure it has nice geology but it's ecosystems and biodiversity are absolutely destroyed compared to most parts of Oz.
Place is basically a sheep paddock.
For a place trading on a clean and green image it's a bit of a hoax.
Interesting Steve!
Just listened to a Scientologist on the ABC today that reckons they are finding climate change is different to what was first expected instead of drier areas getting drier and wetter tropical areas getting wetter, everywhere is getting wetter. Nullabor has received a lot of rain this year, so I have been told by those with water tanks.
introduction of rats and dogs by the maoris and then rats pigs and goats by the europeans pretty much wiped out most of the endemic birds, small mammals and reptiles in NZ.
Not much left.
"While biodiversity varies in natural cycles, nothing since the extinction of the dinosaurs (65 million years ago) compares with the decline in indigenous biodiversity in New Zealand over the last century."
From the NZ Biodiversity Strategy homepage.
I always get a wry smile when people bring up New Zealand as a paragon of sustainability or natural beauty. It's just an island nation turned into a sheep paddock with mountains in between.
FR did you hear of the dairy conversions of the last decade to run dairy cows to supply milk to China? Basically bulldozed everything evenly so they could run irrigation towers and the cows have more room to graze. The sheep could graze on the existing cleared lands while the cows couldnt. I think it's been a big thing in the South.
My first trip there I was wondering where all the trees were.
Excellent photos Craig. The fam and I have, via work and pleasure, lived for a year of our lives in Tassie. It was profound, in so many ways. Especially for the kids to be immersed in such powerful nature at an early age. Basically, I was paid to travel to almost every inch of the place, and it takes time... :)
Thank you Floyd for what you did. My heart is conflicted whenever I see Hydro Tas infrastructure; it is magnificent in what it does, but there has been a cost as well.
It was mentioned above that Tassie could ship renewable power, but they are in the midst of a trying time themselves. Here is a great link to a site one could handily describe as a true '4th Estate' - that pillar of scrutiny and review essential to democracy functioning properly. (I may not agree all the time, but I'm glad they are there):
http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/tasmanias-energy-cri...
It seems like water and power cockups are contagious . And the disease has crossed bass strait .
So to add to stupidity the underground HV cable linking the DESAL plant to the grid at Cranbourne ( 90kms away from the Inverloch plant .) has issues with its inline joins . Of which the installation company has been periodically replacing . Not such a big deal since its not running and power can be shut off for a day or so at a time . But now the Labor party has shot off their mouth , now mums and dads are beying for water to waste .
But get this , thats okay they are just going to truck in some more diesel genny's and fuel like every second day .........
this shit has got to be stopped . F%^% Morons !
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-14/february-smashed-all-time-global-h...
Comment from Australia's chief scientist.
I still reckon it's just a Tim Flannery scam so he can profit from lower waterfront property prices.
southey wrote:It seems like water and power cockups are contagious . And the disease has crossed bass strait .
So to add to stupidity the underground HV cable linking the DESAL plant to the grid at Cranbourne ( 90kms away from the Inverloch plant .) has issues with its inline joins . Of which the installation company has been periodically replacing . Not such a big deal since its not running and power can be shut off for a day or so at a time . But now the Labor party has shot off their mouth , now mums and dads are beying for water to waste .
But get this , thats okay they are just going to truck in some more diesel genny's and fuel like every second day .........
this shit has got to be stopped . F%^% Morons !
Insane, did I hear somewhere the tas gov are setting up 2000 diesel generators, shame the money wasn't spent when the chance was there to go ahead with developing wind and hydro
AndyM wrote:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-14/february-smashed-all-time-global-h...
Comment from Australia's chief scientist.
I still reckon it's just a Tim Flannery scam so he can profit from lower waterfront property prices.
I'm gonna throw the cat amongst the pigeons here, Andy, what in your opinion is the MAIN contributor to this particular hot spell?
As a non-scientist I can only go by the overwhelming evidence and say that this "hot spell" appears to be a continuation of AGW.
But why ask me (some boofhead on a surfing social media site) for clarification, there is a mountain of evidence out there.
It's a big El nino... I think bigger than 97..... Under 0.5'c difference than the 97 el nino.... Makes for great headlines and clickbait...
Stop scaring the kiddies....
Newsflash - Australia's chief scientist wrong, Sheepdog correct.
AndyM wrote:I still reckon it's just a Tim Flannery scam so he can profit from lower waterfront property prices.
Haw haw! Like it!
Sheepdog wrote:It's a big El nino... I think bigger than 97..... Under 0.5'c difference than the 97 el nino.... Makes for great headlines and clickbait...
Stop scaring the kiddies....
But don't bother to ask why it is a bigger El Niño this time around.
talkingturkey wrote:AndyM wrote:I still reckon it's just a Tim Flannery scam so he can profit from lower waterfront property prices.
Haw haw! Like it!
Make no mistake TT, it stands to reason - any decent Australian can see it clear as day.
AndyM wrote:As a non-scientist I can only go by the overwhelming evidence and say that this "hot spell" appears to be a continuation of AGW.
But why ask me (some boofhead on a surfing social media site) for clarification, there is a mountain of evidence out there.
I think I found some
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-31/tasmania-shivers-through-coldest-w...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-weather-june-nights-could-5902388
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/melbourne-weather-coldest-summer-spell...
https://weather.com/news/news/top-five-coldest-february-midwest-northeast
AndyM wrote:talkingturkey wrote:AndyM wrote:I still reckon it's just a Tim Flannery scam so he can profit from lower waterfront property prices.
Haw haw! Like it!
Make no mistake TT, it stands to reason - any decent Australian can see it clear as day.
Read all about it. Clear as mud.
Come on Tim, none of this is in any way evidence against AGW.
I'm willing to change my mind, just show me evidence - a cold winter in certain parts of the world does not discredit a long term global trend for a start.
AndyM wrote:Come on Tim, none of this is in any way evidence against AGW.
I'm willing to change my mind, just show me evidence - a cold winter in certain parts of the world does not discredit a long term global trend for a start.
Yeah I agree, but is a hot summer in certain parts of the world evidence of agw?
AndyM wrote:Newsflash - Australia's chief scientist wrong, Sheepdog correct.
You referring to Finkel? The pro nuclear former engineer?
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/prime-minister-malcolm-turnbul...
Not if it was only "certain parts of the world". The reality is it is a very large percentage of the world and not just over summer. In brief just about everywhere is getting warmer all year round and that, quantified, is absolutely evidence for AGW.
AndyM wrote:Newsflash - Australia's chief scientist wrong, Sheepdog correct.
Are you referring to Finkel? The pro nuclear dump former engineer?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/finkel-backs-waste-repo...
blindboy wrote:Not if it was only "certain parts of the world". The reality is it is a very large percentage of the world and not just over summer. In brief just about everywhere is getting warmer all year round and that, quantified, is absolutely evidence for AGW.
Thanks for keeping that brief, you could have just not bothered. The question at hand was the notion that Feb16 temperatures in a particular part of the world were the hottest on record and that the main contributor to this hot spell is agw.
I don't believe that a localised area of hotter or cooler than average temperatures is evidence of agw.
Speaking of conspiracy theories can anyone confirm that the Tasmanian government are going ahead with spraying chemtrails to make it rain?
Foily, is that anything to do with this dude? Could be a quid in it.
https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/malcolm-turnb...
Oh gawd, don't get involved!!!
Anyways, yeah, all that and plenty more.
I think it's probably reasonable to say that if the world is getting hotter, as measured by instruments that measure temperature, then it is probably reasonable to assume that the world is getting hotter.
I suspect the scientists probably thought about how they measure temperature, and although I will always be sceptical about reverse engineering climate statistics going back a long time, it's reasonable to imagine that the temperature gauging instruments from 1997 or 1998, similar el nino conditions, were sufficiently similar to todays. An increase of .4 degrees in 19 years is reason for concern. It's not proof, just evidence, more evidence, when based on simple risk management principles we should have been doing something about this back in 1980 or so, way before there was any real evidence, just scientific facts about the effect of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
But still, let's argue fine points about whether the science is correct, because, you know, Rome is burning and I hear there is a sale on for fiddles!
For all of that, I think desal plants make a lot of sense. Do you pay for home insurance? If you don't, please go and stand in the queue leading to the sign that says 'Idiot!'.
If you do, how is building a desal anything other than insurance? Sure it's expensive, so is my bloody green slip, and comprehensive car insurance, and home and contents, and all the rest. I hate paying it, but the choice between paying it and standing in the queue with the other idiots is not a choice I really like.
Can't remember his name, but one of the scientists that was a very big agitator for greenhouse effect and doing something about it decades ago has long since gone over to the 'well it's probably too late now and maybe we should just start doing what we need to to ameliorate the effects'. Desal is part of that.
reading this thread is like reading the same thread from 5 years ago. localized this, cold night here, hot mid morning there. doesn't support blaa blaa blaa.
if non geo satellites that measure every single square inch of the upper atmosphere are suggesting that February temperatures were the hottest, then guess what, February temperatures were the hottest. this is not about location. what is in debate at this point in my opinion is not that "it was the hottest" but "by how much". satellites cannot measure ground temperature and so we are forced to wait for climate boffins from the world over to pull together and tell us what they found.
It's almost certainly a carefully orchestrated ruse by the pro-nuclear mob if you ask me.
talkingturkey wrote:Foily, is that anything to do with this dude? Could be a quid in it.
https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/malcolm-turnb...
Ha that's awesome :)
AndyM wrote:It's almost certainly a carefully orchestrated ruse by the pro-nuclear mob if you ask me.
It would be a crazy conspiracy if it was, bigger than the moon landing. You'd have to be proud.
tim foilat wrote:AndyM wrote:It's almost certainly a carefully orchestrated ruse by the pro-nuclear mob if you ask me.
It would be a crazy conspiracy if it was, bigger than the moon landing. You'd have to be proud.
Jeez, you'd have to give them full credit! Imagine pulling that many strings in that many countries on that many levels.
The World Trade Centre attacks on the other hand....!
AndyM wrote:tim foilat wrote:AndyM wrote:It's almost certainly a carefully orchestrated ruse by the pro-nuclear mob if you ask me.
It would be a crazy conspiracy if it was, bigger than the moon landing. You'd have to be proud.
Jeez, you'd have to give them full credit! Imagine pulling that many strings in that many countries on that many levels.
The World Trade Centre attacks on the other hand....!
Ha, it would be like convincing the entire world that you should be a leader because you are a blood relation to an imaginary creator, and everybody should pay you to live a life of luxury...can you imagine
Evidently I was completely wrong about 2000 diesel generators to replace the broken power cord to Tasmania, but 20 is not far off and it seems the chemtrails are a goer.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/energy/cloudseeding-and-diesel-generators...
& so weather modification gets an official nod in one of these threads
here we go
tim foilat wrote:blindboy wrote:Not if it was only "certain parts of the world". The reality is it is a very large percentage of the world and not just over summer. In brief just about everywhere is getting warmer all year round and that, quantified, is absolutely evidence for AGW.
Thanks for keeping that brief, you could have just not bothered. The question at hand was the notion that Feb16 temperatures in a particular part of the world were the hottest on record and that the main contributor to this hot spell is agw.
I don't believe that a localised area of hotter or cooler than average temperatures is evidence of agw.
You are welcome to your own beliefs however if you look at the IPCC report you will find that they do attribute some such episodes to AGW. It will take some time to crunch the data but I would expect that the extended hot spell over eastern Australia will be attributed to AGW. Maybe you should take a few paces back, stop looking at the dots and see the big picture!
blindboy wrote:tim foilat wrote:blindboy wrote:Not if it was only "certain parts of the world". The reality is it is a very large percentage of the world and not just over summer. In brief just about everywhere is getting warmer all year round and that, quantified, is absolutely evidence for AGW.
Thanks for keeping that brief, you could have just not bothered. The question at hand was the notion that Feb16 temperatures in a particular part of the world were the hottest on record and that the main contributor to this hot spell is agw.
I don't believe that a localised area of hotter or cooler than average temperatures is evidence of agw.
You are welcome to your own beliefs however if you look at the IPCC report you will find that they do attribute some such episodes to AGW. It will take some time to crunch the data but I would expect that the extended hot spell over eastern Australia will be attributed to AGW. Maybe you should take a few paces back, stop looking at the dots and see the big picture!
You too are welcome to your own beliefs, I like your big picture thinking but I still don't have my head completely around it. I don't want to look at the ipcc report, it's long, you've bought it up again so perhaps you could reference it. Can you point out where the ipcc explains the coldest month on record last February in North America is mainly attributable to agw?
Do you think El Niño could have anything to do with a warm feb?
Here it comes.