sheep dog
Considing your penchant for political motivations which borderline%are conspiracy theories, how do you see the show in SBS2 "if you are the one".
I can't test your theories because I don't have the historical depth of knowledge. But I've spent 6 months in China and I think I have a fair guage on " the people". I have a mate who thinks there's a political aspect to the show on SBS2. As in, it's propoganda . it's a double bluff from the CCP to say, no we are modern and free!
If you are able to take the time to watch some of it (it's not easy to watch and there's like 36 EPs per season), what's your opinion ?
I've seen the ads, Mitch.... That's about it.... I'll check it out... Do a bit of googling too.... Jeez.... Homework.... I don't like homework ;)
And ps - life is a conspiracy lol
Haha yeah it is homework, but I think it's been pretty entertaining too. I think you'll find it interesting considering you have a condition to the younger generation through Coolum
Mitch, From what I have read, it seems the "glory days" of "If not sincere then do not disturb" are over.... Perhaps if I was to watch some of the early 2010 episodes, and then compare them to the post government regulated and edited version , i'd be better placed to give you an opinion...
I think the original concept was pure entertainment, via "social controversy".... When the Chinese authorities felt threatened and moved in on the show, well, I don't know if that could be considered a "conspiracy"... Their intervention was very public and transparent...
Similar things happened to that western "reality show", Big Brother. However, it wasn't a government that "spoiled the fun"... It was the tv channel itself, via complaints from the public.....The very early days of big brother were quite entertaing .... But then we had the "turkey slap".... Smoking was banned.... A regulated amount of alcohol comsumption..... We went from seeing real social interaction to a fake watered down teeny bop show.... There used to be a real cross section of people, but now it's just "eye candy"......
Is it a conspiracy? Bloody good question..... Is it social manipulation, with China using their own style and the west using theirs? Hmmmm...... Make a good movie ;)
Alright, to be honest I was trying to see if your default position was conspiratorial. Or maybe even if you had a nose for it ;)
FWIW I think it's pretty legit. Even if it does serve some party agenda of showing China to be modern, free, etc, I don't think it needs to be pushed along by the party. The people are doing it cos they want to.
mitchvg wrote:Alright, to be honest I was trying to see if your default position was conspiratorial. Or maybe even if you had a nose for it ;)
FWIW I think it's pretty legit. Even if it does serve some party agenda of showing China to be modern, free, etc, I don't think it needs to be pushed along by the party. The people are doing it cos they want to.
No, I don't have a "default" position.... I knew what you were up to :) ... But I don't have a problem with your tactic, as it was in good faith, and your POV re' social moulding is legit....
But yeah, I do have a "nose" for it.... Several years in media advertising, and a close connection to politics has turned me quite cynical, so I do have to reign my cynicism in sometimes.... If I didn't, A "default position" could establish itself...
Re ' "conspiracy" in general; Part of human nature, Mitch....... Whether it be on a personal level, a group level, or a mass level....
He's also pretty sceptical on the sincerity of the virtuous one liners they come out with, as if they're taken from lame American movies. Over here, we are pretty cynical of that kind of stuff. But a shit life materially, in health and in lifestyle is much more of a prescient reality there, and family is much more important too. So I think they do mean what they say.
Sheepdog wrote:No, I don't have a "default" position.... I knew what you were up to :) ... But I don't have a problem with your tactic, as it was in good faith, and your POV re' social moulding is legit....
But yeah, I do have a "nose" for it.... Several years in media advertising, and a close connection to politics has turned me quite cynical, so I do have to reign my cynicism in sometimes.... If I didn't, A "default position" could establish itself...
Re ' "conspiracy" in general; Part of human nature, Mitch....... Whether it be on a personal level, a group level, or a mass level....
Haha yeah I would've been surprised if you didn't know what I was up to, cheers.
Sheepdog wrote:Mitch, From what I have read, it seems the "glory days" of "If not sincere then do not disturb" are over.... Perhaps if I was to watch some of the early 2010 episodes, and then compare them to the post government regulated and edited version , i'd be better placed to give you an opinion...
I think the original concept was pure entertainment, via "social controversy".... When the Chinese authorities felt threatened and moved in on the show, well, I don't know if that could be considered a "conspiracy"... Their intervention was very public and transparent...
Similar things happened to that western "reality show", Big Brother. However, it wasn't a government that "spoiled the fun"... It was the tv channel itself, via complaints from the public.....The very early days of big brother were quite entertaing .... But then we had the "turkey slap".... Smoking was banned.... A regulated amount of alcohol comsumption..... We went from seeing real social interaction to a fake watered down teeny bop show.... There used to be a real cross section of people, but now it's just "eye candy"......
Is it a conspiracy? Bloody good question..... Is it social manipulation, with China using their own style and the west using theirs? Hmmmm...... Make a good movie ;)
haha yeah, it's much more the CCP's style to clearly set the rules.
I suppose my mate is applying the same cynicism of big brother, etc, to this show, where I'm being a bit more sympathetic
Society, Mitch, is just a template... I'm sure there have been "studies", but at a guess I'd say 90% of people are sheep..... So easily led by so few.... And for the few to "lead", they need to "conspire".... Now not all the conspiring that is/has been done is "bad".... And one mans "bad" is another mans "good".
Convolution...... Paradox...... It can do your head in.....
I used to be sooooo politically driven, but gave up about 8 years ago, towards the end of the Howard regime.....
I think I've said it here once before; "What's the best thing about smacking your head against a brick wall for 20 years?.......... It feels so fuckn good when you stop........ ;)
crap thread.. needs more uplift.
Hehehe..... I didn't ask for it grogs..... How are you man? What's happening in your part of the world?
haha.. Im well. Always bewdiful here. How's things been going with you lately??
Fuckn freezing!!!!! And it's only May..... Top temp today 10'.........Over it.....
Suck it up Sheepdog , and throw on some " jean shorts " . hehe
What would apparent temps be like where you're thinking of moving to? Not much shelter from the winds provided by a forest :|
upworthy now?
You need Skin coloured ICE BREAKER thermals, great kiwi merino sheep imported from Australia a long time ago ;)
"Suck it up Sheepdog , and throw on some " jean shorts " . hehe"
Mate, you northerners up in Vicco wouldn't know what cold is..... Soft as.... ;) Yer yer, you might be one spunk of a man with the hottest nipples I've ever seen, but a day in the snow doesn't count ;p.....
We're on the same lat' as Christchurch, south island NZ..... You tropical victorians are on the same lat' as North island nz - Raglan...... "Winter" starts in early may..... Doesn't end till November.... 6 months.... It's the relentlessness that wears you down..... And getting old doesn't help.... hehehe..
Amongst my lifes journeys was a pleasant year in Mt Martha...... Like a tropical paradise compared to the deep south of tassie..... Its' also a different sort of cold down here..... In ya' bones.... I think that answers your question, Mitch.....
Welly, what I really need is a month in the new hebrides.....
Mickfree!!!! Welly!!! Are you out there???? Re' NZ - http://www.metvuw.com/forecast/forecast.php?type=rain®ion=swp&noofdays=7
Don't know where exactly you are going, but the chart above shows a slight chance of something out of the e -ene..... North island..... Upper east coast... Tuesday map looks interesting..... Maybe chat to wellymon.... Taupo, welly??????
A little out of touch at the moment Sheepio
My lappie is in at the Apple store for 10 days on the tiny little screen called my I phone hehe
Pain in the arse, oh well all good
Broken wing, no lappie, it's like taking an X. Box thingies away from a 7 year old
Those Synoptics look good especially with that high stalling SE of NZ ??
What do think
Swell in the Bay of Plenty not sure down at my favourite;)
Top it off no drinks, mums put her foot down :( hehe
Doggie, had a dabble at the spot you've recommended to me. Pretty fun. Don't even have to drive all the way there, if you know what I mean. Very similar setup to other locations which have the same geographic features, surprise surprise. Definitely gonna go back, cheers. Can't really make it for the next chance you mentioned a few days ago unfortunately, it's just a bit too far under my own steam Mon-Fri.
Gore Vidal's style of America bashing vs others'.
America bashing often takes the form of cheap laughs. E.g. GWB is dumb. No risk, preaching to the converted. Implying that the entire govt is fingered because of these simple observations. Then hiding from criticism behind the moral high ground of being anti war. I suspect this is just another form of class war/claiming cultural superiority. From watching only the one doco, there seems to be more to Gore...
Discuss.
Yeah, but if you blindly chant, blindly accept, and can't look at one's own imperfections without being labelled a "basher", it's just another form of "you're either with us or against us"..... A "poll driven" "how many hits" fatwah on freedom.... That's the paradox of western democracy...... For all it's imperfections, I'd still rather "our way of life".... But part of our way of life is to be able to freely criticsise..... Once you take that away, you become a defacto police state, whether it be via Howards sedition laws, or the current drive to be able to arrest people "on suspicion", or by patronisingly shaking your head at televised evil deeds in the middle east whilst Barack Obama admits to systematic torture performed on innocent people swept up in the Guantanamo Gulag .... But that's ok, right? Torture on our side is ok if the means justify the end....... A death by a thousand cuts....... Here is a quote from another famous fascist, his name? Adolf Hitler ; "“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.”
Islam and judaism use the sword..... Anglo christian societies use the mind......
Vidal and other great writers accept areas of grey, and don't pander to the salem mentality, the black and white reality that marketers, politicians, propagandists would love you to embrace......
It's not about "class", Mitch... far far from it.... Read "big brother"....... Or better still, just watch X factor, The block, Border patrol, catch up on who Kardashian is sleeping with, and feel that warm glow of a modern utopian existence....... ;)
So, all understood. Except I'm not sure if you agree or disagree with my initial premise...?
Well, you initial premise is this - quote; "America bashing often takes the form of cheap laughs. E.g. GWB is dumb. No risk, preaching to the converted."
Nothing new about political satire, Mitch...... And it's not purely an american thing.... Daily political cartoons in newspapers lampooning the leaders of the day....... All through the "free world"...... In Australia, we call it the tall poppy syndrome......
Your premise in non consequential, apart from the fact that it acts as an opiate for the masses....
I saw the United States of Amnesia doco and thought that: Even though the words coming out of Gore's mouth are exactly the same as many others, somehow he seems to be different. Seems as though other seek to take others down for self promotion, whereas Gore seems have different motivations...
I spose what I'm really asking is for you to judge my judge of character. Would you agree that much America Bashing is self serving?
Hmmmm......... "Self serving"....... An interesting concept...... I suppose if I would have some form of "power", hypothetically speaking, and I was to push for a fairer, more free, social society, could I be accused of being self serving? Afteral, I would be put on a pedestal as the one who brought peace, and "my book" would sell millions of copies..... Surely some disgruntled folk looking and no doubt finding imperfections in "my society" would peddle the notion that Sheepdog did all of this for profit and power....
Where does one draw the line, mitch?
I think hypocrisy is a good starting point, and the different levels of hypocrisy..... Transparency would rate a very close second in my eyes......
Now, speaking of transparency, here's an interesting 15 minutes, if you have the time.... I am neither supporting or trashing this clip, but it does ask question... Simple basic questions that I'm sure the powers that be have the simple basic answers for....;
Here's a 6 minute clip you might like Sheepy. The first minute is a bit alarmist then there's some truths there amongst the bullshit? The question is where does the B.S stop and the truth start?
https://m.
Fuck lost what I was writing. Maybe it was for the best. Anyway, self serving is basically...
Net self gain > net social gain.
Hypocrisy is one measure, E.g. comedian gains success amongst left wing pinkos for america bashing, but he himself is not rising to a noble level of behaviour. The attacks only serve to divide and there is no greater social good. but hypocrisy is not inherently bad as it can be benign.
Risk. One can actually risk losing their livelihood, or gain prominence. Gore stood to lose his career in times where (as far as I know) conservatism was much more pervasive. The outcome was self gain < social gain. If he was unsuccessful: -ve self gain < 0 social gain. For westerners these days, criticising power is not high risk high reward. I don't think the balance pays off as so many social awareness campaigns achieve nada. Even the John Stewarts and Colberts, great work but it's still divisive and easy for people who don't agree to simply dismiss. I dunno, maybe they aren't, purely self serving...
They seem to have right intent anyway, which is also a factor. So let's say that over time, their self gain > social gain. It's hard to say that they were self serving because the high input almost reduces their self gain to 0. They could've been successful elsewhere with more self gain. So that points to their intent.
The Great Sheepdog's goal of gaining prominence was neither evil nor good. The means were good. Society judges that he can claim the positive externalities. But if his intentions were evil, society would not allow him to claim the positive externalities. I don't know exactly why it is so, but it seems right. So this is where intent comes into the equation. Intentions act as if they are∝ 1\self gain. But we don't really think of them that way, as in we don't say Gore had a < 0 (shit) life because he his intentions were > 0 (good). I suppose everyone can see large net social gain, and ignore the neutral intent so as to not disencourage this in the future. If your means were harmful from the start, your intentions would be looked upon cynically (in unequal proportion to when your means were benign/good) to discourage future harm. Didn't, watch the vid cos I took too long writing this!
self gain < social gain............... Isn't this purely subjective, mitch? One person's "social gain" is another's "social demise"..
Hypothetical EG - SD decides he wants to change the world for the better... In his eyes..... He believes that lesbians and gays should be allowed to get married.... He believes that the "marriage is for the children" argument put forward by the conservative religious and the Andrew Bolt's of the world is a furphy, reason being - if marriage is purely for childrens sake, Bolt and co would be arguing that heterosexual divorcees over the age of 50 should not be allowed to re marry, as they are well past child bearing age.... And if marriage is purely for the stability of child rearing, and for religious tradition, aged divorcees fall in the same category as gays..... Because not only does "their" bible state homosexuality as a sin, it also states marriage as "until death do us part" and therefore relegates divorce as a sin, too...... SD says to these god fearing folk, "you can't cherry pick.... It's all or nothing..."
So, in this secular society, SD decides to run on a one policy ticket in the senate, knowing full well that 10% of the voting public are gay, and another 40% are sympathetic to the cause...... Even though SD is happily heterosexual, he can see a chance at self promotion, and in his opinion, a fairer world...
He wins..... He shrewdly pushes the agenda, gaining public support, and wedges those across in the house of reps.... A conscious vote is held. It passes through to the senate, and Gay marriage is now legal....
In Sd's eyes, not only is he a champion to many, he honestly believes he falls into self gain < social gain....
But what about the 50% of te public who oppose it, Mitch? What about those who subjectively believe we are one step closer to the rapture? Those who believe we are on the "slippery slope" and soon people will be marrying their pets?
To them, it was self gain > social gain..... SD gained a seat, a big pay packet, rites to an auto biography, a pension..... And threw society even further into sin......
So, self gain > social gain and vica versa is purely subjective to your own personal view on society.....
Keeping it hypothetical, could health be SD's one policy which everyone's subjective bias results in the same outcome?
No...... Profits..... Privatisation..... "The tribe all chips in for the medicine man and he lives with the tribe"- v " the medicine man has his own cave, and you personally must pay"....
Medicare v the American system...... Some folk have no empathy for the poor... They subscribe to the second system.... Their subjective bias is different to mine...
Does the sum of all subjectivity = objectivity?
EDIT this doesn't follow on directly from my previous question
And following on from the hypothetical, could there be a set of universal human rights which are universally acknowledged?
there is mitch, as there is only one thing, that being life-all is life, hence all is oneself. What you do to others you do to yourself etc etc is just not a catchy fridge magnet jesus loving phrase, it is a fact. All humanity's woes could be fixed by adopting the true awareness of oneness rather than the illusion of separateness, that is, me and you, us and them, the creator and creation. There is no division, all is united and just think if everyone realised that another part of life was in fact a part of themself, unless they were a masochist, they would be reluctant to hurt another, exploit another, be superior to another, because they realise that they would be doing this to themself. After a while, they wouldnt even consider it!
Some humans have reached this state of awareness and live life accordingly, most dont, when u adopt this awareness the benefit is u align with the all knowing powerful force that runs life and your life becomes easier and happier. This is the ultimate in human rights as it is the universal RIGHT.
Funny when you look at it, mitch, Dave, that totally different religions, belief systems (formed back when these groups didn't even know of eachother's existence eg - the year 1000- North American Indians/ Jews/ Buddhists), all basically have the same code - Thou shall not kill, lie, adultery, respect your parents yadda yadda......
For different people, totally isolated from eachother, to come up with near identical "laws" is quite a fluke indeed...... If it was a science experiment, you'd have to be impressed...
So, mitch, I'd say the identical "commandments" that these separate "scientific" ( lol) experiments came up with would be a good start as in "universal rites".......
Do 60minutes make the interviewer's voice and image in a way so as to get us to to sympathise with her agenda? That being pandering to the populism of 'pedos aren't punished hard enough'? (not that I think they are punished hard enough, just commenting on the journalism). I reckon they do. Also, Abbott calling the MH17 murder, is that right?
I watched the vid above btw, and my murder question is just more generally about 'due process' before anything else...
60 minutes had always been a "purple hair rinse" rating grab...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d51_1343322862
Apart from that, 4 years jail for 3 separate molestations just doesn't cut it.....
Have you watched that link re' mh17 yet? (4/8 -7.21pm)
Yeah watched that and was listening to lnl and yeah what to make of it all...? should at least wait for the official investigation, at least...
I probably edidted that 1st post this morn while you were responding...
If it is proven to be a deliberate act with full knowledge it was a passenger jet , it is a war crime, therefore murder.... If it is proven to be a terrible mistake, and those who did it thought it was a military supply plane etc, then it is a tragedy.....
But I think there is still too much grey for anyone to be throwing the "murder word" around....
Due process needed..... tragic nonetheless.....
So if it was a deliberate act by the russians, have they roped a dope???
I[m not even sure what the MSM says Russia's motivations are...? cos thre'yre evil?
EDIT: oh that's right the MSM is saying the Russians tried to hide the fact that they did it, and blame it on the Ukrainians... I think...
We can speculate all day long... Bottomline though is how quickly phone taps of pro russian militants were released to the public, yet not one satellite picture on the day has surfaced... Not one.... From a war zone watched by dozens of satellites.... Watched by the biggest super power in the world.... Something just doesn't ad up......
What's an MH17? :P
MH17 was the flight number for the plane that was shot down.
Hey Gonad man, you have to understand that mitchvg spent years and years up in FNQ.... He's.....a.....little....bit.....slow.....aye.... ;)
hahaha he has. Was good but!
MitchGV speaking here though... Isn't accepting grey areas fraught with moral hazard. I.e. those undesirable 'grey areas' could snowball if we accept that they are inevitable??