Vaccinate or not
Blowin wrote:How did I miss the point? You’ve lived a life of admirable adventure, yet now you’re acting as though someone assessing their own acceptable level of risk ought to be made illegal.
I think you’re the one missing the point, mate.
What would the 18 year old Brutus have to say about all this?
Blowin, have done shit that where ya put ya life on the line, for sure.....but not other peoples lives as you seem to want to do.....if you are not part of the solution, you are the problem.
Also in my youth there was a shit load less people, so we could drive like lunatics , surf places that if you made a mistake you were dead....life was pretty simple....now we have the internet and everybody has an opinion, and forums to post them on....we live in a world of misinformation where now any and everybody believes that their personal rights supersede the collective good.......the World is very different place than it was 2 years ago , let alone 10.......where does it end......"united we stand , divided we fall!"..............we are falling as a civilization.....but then again every human civilization in History has fallen and failed......
This thread should be shut down, these clueless conspiracy fuckwits are victims of a religious cult and actually believe they know more than the 99% of educated intelligent people in the world. YOU are the brainwashed sheeple and are a fucking joke. Wake up you morons before you kill someone. Some of the links they put their faith in are hilarious. No one gives a fuck what you brain dead confused junkies think you believe. Thinking you are right and the rest of the world is wrong is a symptom of mental health problems.
I'm out, too many nut jobs around here.
old-dog wrote:This thread should be shut down, these clueless conspiracy fuckwits are victims of a religious cult and actually believe they know more than the 99% of educated intelligent people in the world. YOU are the brainwashed sheeple and are a fucking joke. Wake up you morons before you kill someone. Some of the links they put their faith in are hilarious. No one gives a fuck what you brain dead confused junkies think you believe. Thinking you are right and the rest of the world is wrong is a symptom of mental health problems.
I'm out, too many nut jobs around here.
Old Dog......what's interesting is the amount of supposition and conjecture that get's bandied around as fact........the best thing to do is post links etc to back up your opinion with your facts and see how the SN peer reviews go..LOL!
Rather than just bail and become one of the silent majority , maybe try and communicate your point of view with the facts you have read.....I feel your frustration and anger......can you debunk the conspiracy theories?
That's kind of the problem Brutus, we shouldn't be sharing our point of view openly.
Unfortunately algorithms embedded in Google, YouTube and social media has effectively screwed us in this regard.
Old Dog
Not all people that are cautious of Covid 19 Vaccines are clueless and religious nuts ( maybe the 99% figure you quote were the same intelligent , so called , scientists that believe CO2 is the cause of global warming ). Some of the people that believe in Covid vaccines also seem clueless to me . See attached . New variants ( there will be MANY more to come imo ) of Covid eg Lambda may be resistant to the current vaccines .
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2021-08-05/society-regressing-due-covid-1...
Most of the antivaxxer sites linked to make millions for a small elite core group of people who are laughing all the way to the bank and ONLY exist because they present the opposite view to mainstream REAL science. I'm not talking about the cautious people like blowin, just the deluded fools who think their pathetic excuse for research is somehow relevant. So Hutchy are you saying climate change is not caused by CO2. BTW is the Earth flat or a sphere. Cheers.
Stok wrote:That's kind of the problem Brutus, we shouldn't be sharing our point of view openly.
Unfortunately algorithms embedded in Google, YouTube and social media has effectively screwed us in this regard.
Stok...the reality of todays world is that everyone now has a soap box to stand on , called the internet....and yeah there seems to be a polarization in peoples opinions , based on what they believe are their facts......so I like to think if we keep the discussions civil and not personal we can try and evaluate what is posted and either debunk the conspiracy theories , ot at least question and see what the swellians can come back with .
it's very fatiguing for a lot of us , but I subscribe to the point of view , can you change just one persons view by posting links/facts.....and if so that's a huge win.....
Blue Diamond gave up posting then came back with a post on Indigenous reparations...we all won because a very civil conversation took place....and we all learnt something.....
Anyone refusing to get vaccinated now are not positively contributing and participating members of our Australian community and should have revoked from them all normal standards of freedom and social participation until they are vaccinated.
Shane Warne got covid,fully vaccinated.Hope he has a speedy recovery.
old-dog wrote:This thread should be shut down, these clueless conspiracy fuckwits are victims of a religious cult and actually believe they know more than the 99% of educated intelligent people in the world. YOU are the brainwashed sheeple and are a fucking joke. Wake up you morons before you kill someone. Some of the links they put their faith in are hilarious. No one gives a fuck what you brain dead confused junkies think you believe. Thinking you are right and the rest of the world is wrong is a symptom of mental health problems.
I'm out, too many nut jobs around here.
You’re out so you may not see it… but I’ll be keen to stop back here in 12 months and see how your very clear grasp of the situation ages.
“ No one gives a fuck what you brain dead confused junkies think you believe” is a highlight.
Shall be very bittersweet….
misinformation:
the problem as I see it, is that the machine... those with power, those that we put our trust in, and should put our trust in... have been caught blatantly lying... not just a management / damage control lie here and there... as you'd expect... but blatantly lying, time and time again...
unfortunately this has come at a time when we need to be able to trust our authorities morre than ever (corona). and on the baxk of a period where public trust has plummeted to all time historical lows. ...a period soiled by the outrageousness of trump... but a period, unfortunately, even more soiled by the 'never trumpers' and their reactions to trump...
this thread spells it all out, the last 5 years of nuttyness all around. ...nuttyness from the established power players, and their desperate overreactions to all things trumpy, ...not a single conspiracy in there, a heap that were painted as 'conspiracy'... but time has shown, that that was largely overzealous reactionary desperation, where the passage of time has done 'the establishment' no favours...
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1422181544161128450.html
now trump is gone, but the nuttyness continues... i honestly don't know if that is because; a heap of crew are saving face; power is desperately trying to maintain power; or; people are so adhered to their beliefs, that they are struggling to accept new information (and in turn, reality), ...if this is you, don't get defensive, it's a fairly commonly accepted concept of sociology... shock, deny, process, accept...
now I haven't looked at most of offshoreozzie's links, but I feel I've read most of them in one form or another... and he has gone deep deep into the rabbit hole of a different nutty... the problem is, that most of what he says has a large element of truth to it... probably moreso than mr. shouty's accepted narrative nutty... and that is where 'the establishment' (for want of a better term...) have a major major problem...
now I don't give a stuff in obama is bumming big mike or michelle... it's irrelevant to me... and I really think offshoreozzie does himself no favours posting such dubious rubbish, but there is some gold in there amongst his links, and this is one of them...
it truly is excellent, a presentation from a much cited, and it would seem much accepted, part of the science machine.
the vid is loaded with gold, and every point he makes (there's about 30 of them) would be worthy of a thread for debate on their own, if people could just chill a bit and put our biases to the side...
hindsight is a wonderful thing... and this guy is capitalising big time on that, and raising questions, as new information comes to the fore... as science should be...
what is most striking from this vid, is how beholden to their beliefs people like mr. shouty are... he's trotting out the same tired old bullshit he was 18 months ago before his little hiatus... he has literally learnt nothing throughout this 18 month pandemic period, ...and that is really sad for him, but mostly for all of us, as we all need to find some commonly accept truth to negotiate our way out of this period of absolute nuttyness all round...
it's going to be most interesting in five years time, looking at 'the narrative' still coming from the likes of mr. shouty, and comparing it to the benefit of hindsight... which I imagine will tell a story very similar to what this scientist has found...
Old Dog - Your view that those spreading so called misinformation should be shut down ( like this thread ) is shared by many in the mainstream . Big Tech are doing exactly that NOW .
I wonder why ? My view is that if people are misinformed I want to hear their views so I can debate them and educate them and then let them make up their own minds . It is called freedom of speech .
Not allowing freedom on speech on ANY issue sets a VERY dangerous precedent . I can guarantee that there will be an issue in the near future that you will disagree with the mainstream .
You mention " the earth is flat " . Thankyou ! Galileo view was not the mainstream view and the Church tried to shut down his view .
As I think Einstein said "I do not care if everyone thinks that I am wrong as it takes one one to prove I am wrong " .
and, just for the record, I have had my first vaccine. there's many reasons I got it, with my situation being a little unique... if I was not in unique circumstances, I probably would have delayed...
but it is a risk / reward analysis. and I see the risk of vaccines as fairly minimal for my age bracket. but I also see the reward as fairly minimal too, as we now have the delta+ strain and lambda or whatever knocking on the door
to me this means endess vaccines / and boosters until hindsight and the virus sort themselves out...
scumo's uselessness, and oz society's now ridiculous expectations of zero virus and closed borders, means a vaccine is gonna do fuck all for me in terms of travelling in and out of australia, ...which is really annoying and gives the impression of absolute futility...
is australia really prepared for 2 more years at least, of lockdowns, quarrantine, and closed borders?
because short of a little revolt, that's what we are facing at a minimum...
personally I think this is a ridiculous proposition and it's well passed time the government was straight with people
if shit just keeps ticking over like it has been, 'crisis' to crisis... rolling lockdowns... facemasks... aussies locked in and locked out... for another 2-4 years at least, ..life is going to be unbearable, and society so divided, it will be a constantly teetering tinderbox...
fucking miserable
An interesting concept Sypkan. How ever, a summary of tweets does not a compelling argument make - I do note how tightly it conforms to your particular chosen narrative though. So many gross generalisations and questionable conclusions in it, would take days to pull it all apart with any real rigour.
One thing I do find useful from it though, it does help explain to something that I've found particularly baffling, how you reach the conclusions you do given the information available. That thread does help to explain that for me.
Always find it baffling how you'll examine others opinions and positions with this really fine grained critical approach, but won't consider your own in the same light.
I'd agree that the media how shown themselves (for those that didn't grasp this already) to be untrustworthy and there's been failings amongst the scientific community (they are human too). But what I don't understand, is how seemingly for yourself (and many others) the reaction to this has been the assumption that you can now just pick and choose for yourself. If you don't like something (ie: doesn't fit your narrative) it is dismissed out of hand, with little if any scrutiny. The inverse if it fits for you of course.
It's a sad state of affairs really - one thing you are definitely right about though:
'we all need to find some commonly accept truth to negotiate our way out of this period of absolute nuttyness all round'
I really don't feel like you've been making any headway on this one mate. If you can think of a genuine way to achieve it, I'm all ears.
"So many gross generalisations and questionable conclusions in it, would take days to pull it all apart with any real rigour...."
give it your best shot mate...
dot points - shouldn't take long at all
as to the rest...
ok boomer
whatever
pot, kettle, black
again...
"don't get defensive, it's a fairly commonly accepted concept of sociology... shock, deny, process, accept..."
Defensive, Denial.
Ok boomer? I'm pretty sure I'm younger than you mate.
JQ your comment 'we all need to find some commonly accept truth to negotiate our way out of this period of absolute nuttyness all round' is impossible of course . There are VERY few issues that this can be achieved and even many facts are disputed .
To make headway I look to situations around the world to try and find approach's that have worked better than what we are doing here . I recently read that Sweden seems to be doing well at the moment .
They chose not to do lock downs . They were willing to accept an early death rate ( not much higher than most other countries but higher than other Scandinavian countries ) but not experience the economic and social problems of lock downs . Their vaccination rate was very low ( have increased now to a bit below average ) but they seem to have developed a herd immunity ( like we do with colds ( covid has more in common with colds than flu's ) ) and infection and death rates are very low now . Their economy is doing VERY well and they have none of the social trauma of lock downs . The mainstream ( especially the media ) has abused them relentlessly for taking their own approach .
The above video was very good.
Smoking kills twice as many people as Covid every year and is potentially responsible for half of all Covid deaths…..
Im not defensive or in denial at all...
there's not much in that mega thread that is contentious, if you're not a partisan nutter...
if it's so full of '...generalisations and questionable conclusions in it, would take days to pull it all apart with any real rigour."
Im more than happy to be proven wrong
"In this cross-sectional study of 540,667 adult hospitalized patients with COVID-19, 94.9% had at least 1 underlying medical condition. Hypertension and disorders of lipid metabolism were the most frequent, whereas obesity, diabetes with complication, anxiety disorders, and the total number of conditions were the strongest risk factors for severe COVID-19 illness."
https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm
.
"In this cross-sectional study of 540,667 adult hospitalized patients with COVID-19, 94.9% had at least 1 underlying medical condition. Hypertension and disorders of lipid metabolism..."
yet the vast majority of media just flat out refuse to go there...
why?
a two bit bali site ain't scared to go there
like the vid above, crucial, ...inspirational even... information for many people
https://thebalisun.com/diabetes-is-known-to-be-a-major-cause-of-covid-19...
Blowin wrote:The above video was very good.
Smoking kills twice as many people as Covid every year and is potentially responsible for half of all Covid deaths…..
Blowin can you post a link to your claim on smokers being responsible for 1/2 of all covid deaths?
This is Louis, he’s a damara lamb that was rejected by his mum on a friends farm. He’s only a few days old but seems to be doing much better today. We’ve got him for 3 months before we take him back to the farm. He’s a lot of work, a bit like a human baby. He’s our lockdown project and just the kind of sunlight this thread needs, if only briefly
Would like to think just one other Aussie...
Offered to donate their Vaccine to The National Emergency Vaccine Appeal...
Offered to donate their Vaccine to The State Emergency Vaccine Appeal
Offered to donate their Vaccine to the Homeless and our dying Neighbours.
tbb knows for a fact that no other Aussie donated their Vax for frontline or Emergency/s
Despite calls for Vaccine & WHO booster Moratorium & long known frontline Vax shortage.
No! You don't need an excuse...ya just Phone & wait 30mins then offer up yer Vax or other.
100% of Vaxerz never hesitated to put themselves ahead of Vax depleted Frontline to win Gold Stars.
Whereas, risk own life to supply Oz Frontline to forever be branded a traitor by the Gold Stars.
Plenty of Rollout Experts can spin that around before the evening News!
Seldom venture out... so Vax is best to save most lives for this or next frontline emergency.
tbb subscribes to WHO mantra...Frontline > Emergency > Needy > tbb at the back of the queue.
Both Govt's respected tbb's offer as selfless & genuine + took time to consider the donation.
Tip! It still might be possible to tinker a donation at the booking stage...(re: A proxy booking!)
Only they'd get into trouble on advising tbb how to donate by 3rd party.
(Kinda Corporate like!) As in the owner of a Care Facility...should help the next Aussie to step forward!
Yes! It was confirmed that frontline are desperate for Vaccine...hence why tbb never hesitated to offer.
Qld Health confirmed that current vax bookings were strictly reserved for the Frontline.
tbb is mental, so considers this as normal & would do the same thing 100x over...knows no other way!
The future: in response to the damage created by misinformation spread by people regarding covid and its vaccines, governments around the world legislate that misinformers are domestic terrorists. This opens up a legal framework whereby our basic freedoms are eroded one after the other. Eventually, we reach the point where any kind of dissent is a criminal offence.
Ironically, the ignorance and stupidity of people who just want to protect their freedom causes society to lose that freedom.
billythekid wrote:The future: in response to the damage created by misinformation spread by people regarding covid and its vaccines, governments around the world legislate that misinformers are domestic terrorists. This opens up a legal framework whereby our basic freedoms are eroded one after the other. Eventually, we reach the point where any kind of dissent is a criminal offence.
Ironically, the ignorance and stupidity of people who just want to protect their freedom causes society to lose that freedom.
Excellent comment
old-dog wrote:This thread should be shut down, these clueless conspiracy fuckwits are victims of a religious cult and actually believe they know more than the 99% of educated intelligent people in the world. YOU are the brainwashed sheeple and are a fucking joke. Wake up you morons before you kill someone. Some of the links they put their faith in are hilarious. No one gives a fuck what you brain dead confused junkies think you believe. Thinking you are right and the rest of the world is wrong is a symptom of mental health problems.
I'm out, too many nut jobs around here.
you're giving junkies a bad rap here old-dog.
I reckon covid 19 will be around for longer than 10 years maybe even forever even.
Anti vaxxers will die out or be like leppers of society..Just a guess
Forever I recon GS
Will improve the gene pool at least.
Well said shoredump.
And when the ant-vax fuckwits do get Covid, they'll be clogging up ICUs, compromising the treatment of people when they get in accidents or get sick through no fault of their own.
"selfish pricks" is the perfect description. I would have added "moronic" and "arrogant" too.
Vic Local wrote:Well said shoredump.
And when the ant-vax fuckwits do get Covid, they'll be clogging up ICUs, compromising the treatment of people when they get in accidents or get sick through no fault of their own.
"selfish pricks" is the perfect description. I would have added "moronic" and "arrogant" too.
VL you have come back in absolutely red-hot sizzling form big fella. The lay off has worked wonders for you. POW!
Groundswell said "I reckon covid 19 will be around for longer than 10 years maybe even forever even.
Anti vaxxers will die out or be like leppers of society..Just a guess"
I listened to a UK expert on BBC the other night who said in theory the virus could keep mutating and breaking through the vaccines until it kills most of the homo sapiens on earth, he stressed "in theory" but when asked the likelihood he said he didn't want to say more as the current scenario was stressful enough to people.
I'd believe to be more than just a theory too. Could easily happen.
Right. The virus could easily morph from having its current 99.99 percent survival rate to turning the entire human species into flesh eating zombies by Christmas. Just yesterday a 92 year old woman who was already in the cardiac ward tested positive and later died,…..what chance does a healthy young person stand*?
*Still 99.99 percent chance of surviving.
Blowin as at 1 August, Sydney had 3180 cases since delta outbreak started and 14 deaths. That means 0.44% of Sydney delta cases as at Aug 1 had died. That’s with a lockdown. That's just under 1 in 227 delta cases resulting in death. But you're saying that 99.99% of covid cases live - that's 1 in 10,000 deaths.
Looks like a) you can't do basic maths; and or b) you're part of the misinformation problem
Billy- No mate. I don’t include severely ill 90 year olds in those statistics. I think they’ve only got about an 85 percent chance of survival. It seems like a few severely ill 90 plus aged Australians have died with the virus. Very sad for the people involved.
Those survival rates are an undisputed fact. I know it seems strange after you’ve been indoctrinated by the MSM horror movies.
99.99% survival rate is an undisputed fact? Aahhh, I just disputed that number with facts.
See, there's an example of how covidiots think - they wave a magic wand around and say, "it is so".
To be honest , and not wanting to sound ghoulish, but the death rates/stats don't bother me.
Whats feeding into my risk assessment is the hospitalisation/ICU rate.
There are currently 345 people in hospital in NSW, 56 in ICU.
They said the age breakdown on the radio yesterday but I can't find the figures now, but there are a fair whack of people under 50 , 40 and even 30 in ICU and hospital.
I feel perfectly fine in my own health and immune system but the chance of ending up in Lismore Base when I could get a jab that reduces that risk to close to zero seems a very strong rational case to me to get jabbed.
Feels like sooner or later this Delta strain is going to get in everywhere.
Indeed freeride.
Hurry up and get that jab Freeride!
Good to know: reported ground truth in Israel https://t.co/vtwwgKkEIU
— Robert W Malone, MD (@RWMaloneMD) August 5, 2021
BTW- I think you’re confused there, Freeride. If you are healthy and with a strong immune system you’ve got virtually no chance of Covid putting you in hospital anyway, jab or not. The MSM messaging wants you to hear those numbers of hospitalised and imagine that they are all healthy people cut down in their prime. Do you have any idea if those people were sick as fuck and would have wound up in hospital anyway? Or if even the flu might’ve sent them there in any other year?
99.99 percent survival.
A good percentage of those who’ve died WITH Covid were already in hospital cause they were already fucked up. They caught it in hospital and anyone who dies within 28 days of the unreliable test is counted as a Covid death.
It’s like we are back to the early days of the situation when we were supposed to think that Chinese people were spontaneously keeling over in the street and dying. The MSM is taking you for a ride. One of the ABC links above even called everybody who’d ever tested positive a survivor! The vast majority of people never even have a single symptom. Survivors….lol.
I have no idea who that source is.
As of last week and I believe this still holds true: “No fully vaccinated people have been admitted to intensive care units,” Kidd said. “No people who are fully vaccinated have died from Covid-19 during this current outbreak. Four percent of people admitted to ICU with Covid-19 have received one dose of a vaccine; 96% of those admitted to ICU are currently unvaccinated.”
Prof Michael Kidd is Australia's Acting Chief Health officer.
Unless that guy is bald faced lying through his teeth, those figures sound convincing to me from a risk assessment perspective.
Damn well that sucks. Hopefully boosters become available. (on blowins posted link)
What amazes me regarding the vaccine debate is that EVERY medication that is manufactured has side effects and can cause potential harm (ie. the risk/reward argument) and yet here we are...oh yes and big Pharma has always made fat profits.
And prior to the pandemic where was the debate about 'freedom of speech'? We don't even have that right enshrined in the Constitution, nor a Bill of Rights for that matter.
Get vaccinated and we can all get on with our lives.
Stay safe.
Paging Dr. Dick Vocal , Dr Dick Vocal can you go to V.O.N. For morning entertainment ?
san Guine wrote:Get vaccinated and we can all get on with our lives.
Has a guarantee been given that lockdowns and restrictions will end once a certain percentage of people have received the vaccine?
Also have you considered that as the vaccine efficacy drops over time (after six months it becomes steadily less effective) that when we get near whatever the percentage of people vaccinated is to supposedly end restrictions, that the first round of people who had both doses of the vaccine will then maybe need another dose?
IE - can the effectiveness of the vaccine be maintained throughout the vaccinated population to reach herd immunity?
Alternatively Freeride - No otherwise healthy people have been admitted to ICU.
For mine, it's always been about how increasing spread of Covid-19 has the potential to overwhelm our hospitals.
Even though statistically most people stand a reasonable chance of surviving Covid-19 following medical intervention, they consume resources that are normally meant for other medical treatments. So, anyone booked in for surgery may have to reschedule, which could exacerbate their condition (for some, a few weeks delay can be the difference between life and death). There's also a major strain on the usual flow of ED patients if beds are not available.
Of course, we've been very lucky in Australia that the panedmic has been generally managed pretty well from this perspective (not overwhelming the hospitals). Other countries have not fared quite as well, with their hospital systems fully loaded with Covid patients.
Finding a balance is pretty hard, because there's no way to stress-test just how much we can cope with, especially with the new Delta strain which is significantly more transmissable. A Covid-19 outbreak without some kind of lockdown results in an exponential increase in hospital admissions. And once the genie is out of the bottle it's almost impossible to put back in.
I was a little shocked at Alan Joyce (CEO Qantas) announcement that international travelers will be required to have a covid 19 vaccination in order to travel on Qantas flights . The government wanted to have mandatory vaccination but after the bumbling of its release ( it was painful to watch the delivery of that announcement ) they withdrew the mandatory part but it seems Qantas and other business may demand a vaccination in order to use their services. I’m not anti vaccine by any means I just don’t trust this government or a vaccine that has been rushed through. A jab followed by another jab followed by yearly jabs doesn’t sit well with me as I have never had a flu shot or the flu for more than 20 years. Plus I don’t want to give this shot to my healthy 4 year old daughter. She is up to date with all her vaccinations but this covid vaccine is new and not being around for decades like the others. Tuberculosis remains the number one as far diseases go and you don’t need proof of vaccination to travel so what is going on ?