Do you like or hate Donald Trump, and why?

"I didn't say I'm not concerned about it. Just that it's presented as overblown."

Tell that to some Pittsburgh Jews.

just to get it straight then, hawke by your defnition is a neo-liberal?

"Hawke and Keating continued this economic liberalisation by further reducing tariffs, deregulating the financial sector, floating the Australian dollar, and privatising state assets.

Within a wider context, the shift toward more economically liberal policies was part of a move within the English-speaking world toward the Anglo-American model of neoliberalism, as promoted and implemented by Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan."

https://theconversation.com/was-embracing-the-market-a-necessary-evil-fo...

"just to get it straight then, hawke by your defnition is a neo-liberal?"

If you need a yes or no answer then yes, he was a neoliberal. Though the term applies to a spectrum and as Hawke retained Medicare and social welfare, plus regulations that didn't expose us to the full force of the market, then he's at the opposite end of the spectrum than Thatcher and Reagan, yet a neoliberal no less.

thanks andym, but introducing "facts" into the discussion a low blow.. i liked hawke, maybe i will accept the mantle of a neoliberal although it generally seems a generic form of abuse like "tory"

It's a postmodern free-for-all loungie ;)

Yeah neoliberalism might have become a general pejorative term but it also has clear components to its definition.

And as Stu said, it's also on a spectrum and can still have social aspects mixed in with it.
Hence, despite Labor still pushing a certain degree of social welfare etc., their ideology is very much neoliberalism.
Which also leads us to the conclusion that Labor (and the freaking U.S. Democrats) cannot be described as 'left".

@LL,

This requires context.

Neoliberalism was inevitable, it couldn't be resisted once the economic superpowers adopted it as their new MO. If not Labor then Liberal, but one way or another Australians - the people that is - would've forced the government's hand to adopt the new means to development. We wanted to become a 'global' country - ergo we wanted neoliberalism.

Australia was incredibly fortunate to have Hawke as PM during the transition. Personally, when I look back at Australia's historical fortunes, that little fact is right near the top. He was someone with a union background, who believed in 'society', but who also understood the inexorable economic forces shaping the world during the early 80s, and he harnessed them well. Economically, we grew as a nation, thanks to early neoliberalism, but we never lost the commonality that united us - that would come later when divisions were foisted upon us.

It has a different meaning now. It's become largely pejorative simply because of an unbridled acceptance of the doctrine and all the negatives that stem from that.

"Which also leads us to the conclusion that Labor (and the freaking U.S. Democrats) cannot be described as 'left".

Andy...dude...I picture you walking outside Central Station each day wearing a sandwich board with that painted on it.

"Andy...dude...I picture you walking outside Central Station each day wearing a sandwich board with that painted on it."

Good on him!

We need those little bit loopy but completely credible dudes. Especially about something as subtle as the above. Nothing worse than being called a right wing nut job by a self righteous clinton supporting delusional that STILL hasn't put two and two together.

This 'neo liberal' tag is most interesting. Especially considering the IMF was denying it's even existence as little as five years ago.

Interesting being a bystander to blob and blindboy's little economic merit argument a few days ago. With both claiming victory for their respective sides.

Hawke went all neo liberal before anyone even knew what it was (see above). But really he was just reacting to the economic conditions of the world ie. Blindboys 'stable economics that served us well' had run out of steam. Some deregulation and loosening up was required to stimulate a pretty flat local and world economy.

The problems really began when the left jumped in wholeheartedly with their third way bullshit. Basically rolling over and accepting right wing free market orthodoxy. Too lazy or uninterested to offer anything better. Fair enough...maybe, why would they do otherwise? They were all mannaging to feather their nests through the process of selling out on workers across various classes.

Twenty odd years later...and even the IMF accept the shortcomings of 'neo liberalism'.

Neither blob or blindboy were correct. Neither were wrong either. Just different interpretations of adjustments and triggers.

I see it a bit like trump now. The acceptance of free market orthodoxy put all the eggs in one basket. Trump changing tact created opportunities as the norm is challenged. Even bernie acknowledged that would happen, but the usual media mouth pieces just made fools of themselves...again!!

Any change to the system creates opportunity. Loosens shit up like a laxative. The question is for how long?

Who are the winners?

And who cops the turds?

The last two were conscious decisions. Somehow the left expected workers to keep copping turds indefinitely. Decades of copping turds through their third way experiment, whilst they pandered to a mythical middle class rainbow alliance. A little naive and short sighted

I agree with Blob that Man has a separation from Nature and I feel I can understand how Christianity is aligned with that concept via the moral agency that Man has. (It still dumbfounds me that there is a mal-alignment with Evangelicals and the acknowledgement of human impacted climate change. To me, the dilemma is written intrinsically into the story of the flood, that immoral Human action leads to the flood).

So I look at GuySmiley's diagram and I can see how both are true rationally, and how both apply to god's laws. On the Left: Man has a hierarchical responsibility, given his superior power of consciousness, and on the right: All creatures on the planet are equally entitled to life.

Back to Trump: I agree with Stunet that there is significant naivety on behalf of Trump supporters and their belief that it is OK to refuse to denounce/be ambivalent to right-wing extremist influence that in the past have led to fascist regimes.

The most eye opening thing that I have learned the mechanics of in the last 12 months is the dangers of the polar opposite extreme of Postmodern Social Justice, and the equal and opposite dangers of the extreme leftwing view. There is a creeping current of the extreme left view that has been poorly articulated on a large scale.

For me, until those who identify and vocally align with one of either side of the political divide are prepared to take a wholly critical look at the extremes of what they are supporting and denounce the extremist ideologies in their own camp, the divide in opinion is ripe and quickly becoming rotten, and I think that rot is where we are currently headed today.

While I am left leaning by my proclivity to be open to change, I now believe that I am largely useless if I think I can create change by ignoring and not deeply respecting the views of others (roughly 50% of the whole) who have other leanings toward tradition and security.

Haha, Stu it's a furphy that just won't die!!

Fuck, if I say it often enough, the idea might take hold.

After 9/11 it was always probable that someone like Trump would come along. There is a parallel here with Hitler's rise. Hitler blamed Germany's loss of World War One on the Jews, so they became the target of the hatred that was directly responsible for the Holocaust. In Trump's case he simply used the hatred of Muslims that followed 9/11 to expand his popularity.

Not all those who voted for Trump were racists but, as with Brexit, the racist votes were necessary. This stands as a warning to Australia where similar, but less extreme, forces have been at play since John Howard adopted One Nation rhetoric. The problem with courting any one issue cohort of voters is not only that they exert disproportionate control over policy, but that increasing their number increases the potential majority. If the racist vote was the crucial factor in winning the last election, then why not build your potential vote by encouraging racism in preparation for the next? In Australia to date politicians have been careful to play the racist card with some subtlety. Trump has no such restraint.

Racism is always there. We may not care to admit it but studies have repeatedly shown that humans are to some extent instinctively racist. We are worse at identifying faces of those belonging to different ethnic groups compared to our own. We are more cautious around strangers of other ethnic groups. For similar offences we judge those of other ethnic groups more harshly. These tendencies though are quite malleable. They can be easily overcome by conscious effort or by regular desensitising exposure. On the other hand they can be intensified by information or images designed to reinforce them. History is explicit on this point. Racism has thrived in so many times and places, it has to be considered a constant danger and the battle to suppress it is endless. This is why individuals and societies alike need to work to against racism. It is not political correctness, it is political sanity.

This is the danger of Trump and his enablers. In classifying some groups as "other" which is the essential process of racism, they lower the barriers to violence against them. In the circumstances then it is not surprising that hate crimes have risen steadily during Trump's presidency. The question then becomes to where does this lead? Given the techniques for manipulating individuals through social media that have proven immensely powerful so far, it might be thought that the current trajectory must continue and that the racist forces now at play in the US can only get stronger. Yet looking at Hitler's rise to power suggests otherwise.

Hitler was able to carry his racism to its most extreme limit because he had very effectively unified the nation behind him. By carefully blending blatant propaganda aimed at the masses with sophisticated arguments supported by the science, theology and philosophy of the period, he reached every section of society in a way that Trump has no hope of emulating. So far in the US the opposition to Trump's excesses is strong and unified, not around politics, but around core democratic values.

The risk of escalating racism and greater violence against minorities of every kind is still real. Much depends on the on going courage of those opposing him. It has to be assumed, given both his rhetoric and actions, that Trump is capable of much worse than we have so far seen. His determination to stack the Supreme Court with yes men and his total disregard for existing law and democratic precedent suggest that there is a strong possibility he will attempt to subvert the constitution, undermine democracy, erode human rights and establish himself as a dictator. If there is only 1% chance of that, it is still a risk that should be at the forefront of the mind of every reasonable US citizen.

Stunet

So knee jerk reactions to Political Correctness provide cover for Neo nazis huh?.
What a load of Left serving rubbish.
We know who is providing cover for the Antifa fascists don't we?.
If there is any rise in right wing extremism it is because of the growing enforcement of political correctness, and the demonisation of Trump and other moderates.
Before WW11 in Europe the Marxists battled fascists .....after they had cleared the moderates out of the way.
You Neo Marxists are creating the same dynamic
you are extremists, not moderates
.....like 'we don't believe in nations or borders' extremism.
....like white privilege, gender fluid, global warming extremism.
......like, 'Trump is a monster and must be destroyed' extremism

Trash the identity and the future of a nation and you will eventually get an extreme reaction to your extreme provocation
And who do you Green voting extremists really think you represent?....perhaps 10% of the population?....chattering away in inner city havens and the left media?.
Pauline Hansen has almost as much support all by herself.
Why is it that lefties go on about Neo nazis when you couldn't find any if you looked, while left wing extremism and antifa are in abundance?.
Because they like extremism....as long as it is leftist.
....poke a nose into any university.
By demonising Trump, while actually being worse than Trump, the left (including Team Swelleft) are the ones inciting extremism.
Trump is like Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt and Reagan....all nationalists.
Nationalism is not extremism, it is the moderate, default setting of history.
Being proud of your country is not extreme.

One after another, influential right wing voices are being banned from social media as powerful leftists seek to manipulate elections.
Don't blame the moderates when this extremism blows up in your faces.

I don't think Trump is anything like Hitler. He only cares about the U.S of A. Hitler wanted the whole world. I don't think Donny is very smart but he is a patriot to his own country, wants it to be rich again with the streets flowing with apple pie. A new Hitler however is quite probable, but will be head of the new united Europe. He will promise the world for total power. He will look awesome, promise world peace etc.etc but will be the worst of the worst. The Poms have already sniffed this smell hence Brexit. They don't want to give up their sovereignty to the new Europe which funny enough looks the same as the old Roman empire. Time will tell.

@blob, my question from earlier?

Optimist there are distinct differences between Hitler and Trump and you may be right that EEurope could evolve into a greater threat. The resignation of Merkel in Germany could signal a serious shift to the right. A quasi racist right wing government in Germany would have been unthinkable a few years ago.

not the sharpest tool in the shed are you blob.

Guysmiley
I read the article.
I reckon she makes highly valid points about men's lack of responsibility regarding pregnancy.
I think her solution was terrible.

Optimist is all over it. 100%

Blob's about 50% (normally I give him 10-20).

I reckon he's no blunt bell end actually

Wallpaper

So I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed huh
Top comment.
I suppose if I educated myself I could be like the historians commenting here, knowing all the ways Trump is just like Hitler.
Try assembling an actual argument yourself champion, so I can be amazed and enlightened.

"If there is any rise in right wing extremism it is because of the growing enforcement of political correctness, and the demonisation of Trump and other moderates."

The reason for the rise of right wing extremism is because people like yourself give them cover next thing (like now) they morph into mainstream.

Old republicans that fought wars are terrified of where this goes.

The pendulum swings.... the Left have taken the ball and run with it, thinking the whole crowd was cheering them on. But really it was just their own echo chamber. Meanwhile they have pissed off everyone in the spectrum starting with the middle ground and in between across to the far right. So now those masses in the middle ground (think bell curve) have got off their hands and demanded some balance. Calling the middle ground 'far right' just polarises the argument. The art now is damping the swing so that it doesnt go too far into the territory of the genuine far right.

as for the original question by the Dimitrios10, about Trump, I reckon he's the better outcome than the Clinton Dynasty re-boot. Doesnt make him a good solution, but not as bad as the MSM would have the sheeple believe.

Very telling that the independent journalists and commentators are now being incrementally purged from their platforms for doing nothing more than providing an alternative take on Trumps actions.

The global establishment doesnt like Trump, therefore he must be a good thing in my mind.
https://www.youtube.com/user/PrisonPlanetLive
https://www.youtube.com/user/MarkDice
https://www.youtube.com/user/IDFTraining
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6wdP5hTf_phre6Q3kFiV2g/featured

Ralph Steadman on Trump
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/01/ralph-steadman-interview-h...

I focus

Instead of empty contrary accusations please help me out by putting some factual meat on your skeletal argument.
So we know what we are talking, about please let me know your definition of extreme and moderate Right.
Is Donald Trump a right wing extremist?
Has Trump endorsed Neo Nazis?.
How have I given cover to right wing extremism?
Are those on the Left that would compare him to Hitler using extreme and provocative language.?
What about posing with an effigy of Trump's decapitated head.....extreme?.
How about condoning the secret service plotting to undermine and overthrow a president.....extreme?.
Which is the more extreme position, open or controlled borders?.
Would the average citizen outside of a humanities dept. consider gender theory, queer theory, 2nd wave feminism extreme or sensible?.
Are Gavin McInnes, Alex Jones, Larry Elder, Anne Coulter, Ben Shapiro, Jonah Goldberg, Matt Walsh, Dennis Prager extremists?
How have they given cover to Neo Nazis?
How have I given cover to Neo Nazis?
By telling provocative lies you are the one raising the stakes.

Why do the leftist media go soft on Antifa extremists?

https://www.lifezette.com/2018/08/portland-police-chief-to-reporters-why...

Will banning right wing voices provoke a response?

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/16/social-media-companies-...

No, it is the left who a building the political pressure by 'disappearing' moderate Right wing voices while giving direct comfort to left wing extremism.

We'll see if you answer any questions.

Ha ha...yesterday you called me an extremist and today Alex Jones is a moderate.

"One of Jones' most notorious conspiracy theories is that the government is using chemicals in order to turn people gay, using a mysterious "gay bomb" devised by the Pentagon."

Sounds plausible.

Moderate even.

Totes

Stunet

As a sniper you are a lousy, trigger happy shot.
Read the W.O.R.D.S.
I didn't call Alex Jones moderate, did I?.
I threw that red herring in as bait for the conspiracy theorists in Club Swelleft.
....hook, line and sinker...
I only asked for definitions.
You gleefully stepped into your own crap as usual.
And surprise, surprise, you never addressed one of my questions.
Seems kinda dishonest to me....at least disingenuous.
Don't worry though, I have realistic expectations...

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/08/10/twitter-bans-conservative-comm...

You're a trickster, Blob.

Little devil you are....

Nice deflection away from the U.S.' premier conspiracy theorist Blob.

Disingenuous?

You?

C'est impossible.

Westofthelake

Funny haha cartoon,
.....but so much for leftist compassion because You are laughing at a real tragedy unfolding for thousands of people at the US border, and it isn't Trump's fault.
Trump has to deal with the consequences of progressive stupidity.
Playing politics has consequences.
In Australia naive progressives playing politics caused the drowning deaths of over a thousand people.
...and clear thinking Conservatives fixed the problem again and again.
Nice work compassionate lefties.
Don't take my word for it, at least Doug Cameron of the left faction of Labor had the guts to admit it.

Pay attention and you'll see, they're wrong about everything.

So then, what about the people who couldn't leave and are conscripted by the Taliban, tortured by the Tamil, persecuted for being homosexual, killed for their religious beliefs?

Where do they factor into the ledger?

Watching ABC News tonight and there was a story about this man named Banks who bank-rolled the Brexit leave campaign. There is now a parliamentary enquiry underway investigating this Banks character, the 8 million pounds he gave to the leave campaign and his apparent links to Russia. All is denied of course but if proven it could further throw Brexit into disarray.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-02/brexit-donor-arron-banks-referred...

....not the old 'deaths at sea' mantra. Crocodile tears that was.

I saw that Guy. The other piece was how they will need so much new legislation that the only way to cope will be to copy the existing EU legislation. Plus ca change

There have been few elections anywhere, at anytime with greater significance than the upcoming mid-term elections for the US House of Representatives and the Senate. They are widely seen as a referendum on the Trump presidency and, in that context, a clear indication as to the future direction of that nation.

The indications are that the Democrats will win the House and the Republicans hold the Senate. Given that it is a practical impossibility for the Democrats to win the Senate, this would be the best possible outcome. There is no sense in clinging to any sense of impartiality in this analysis. The vote is not so much good vs evil as some modicum of sense and decorum vs outright stupidity and vulgarity.

If there are not enough voters with the judgement and commitment to turn out, vote Democrat and deliver a firm and decisive NO to the bizarro world into which Trump is leading them, then it has to be assumed that the centre has failed and the nation has fallen into the incompetent hands of a bunch of extremists who would have the greatest difficulty distinguishing up from down without the aid of a plumb bob.

Ignorance always has an appeal to a segment of the population. It is incredibly energy efficient to put the brain in neutral, believe whatever some smartarse with a larger vocabulary than your own tells you is true and go back to whatever trivial amusement has attracted your attention. But whenever that constituency, either by weight of numbers or, as in this case, gerrymandering determines the government, shit will surely follow. We will know the outcome soon enough.

Blob extreme........where to start

Extreme is a US president says those that stand with a mob chanting "Jews will never rule over us" are good people its so extreme its never happen before in the western world since WWII.

Blob there is no where for you to hide the right currently rule the western world.

Extreme is blaming the "left" (no fu(king left in the US) and Marxists (none of them either) for the rise of the extreme right that is the good folks chanting "Jews will......

Extreme is the transfer of wealth (with that goes power) being sped up by putting the US into a debt that can only be replayed by the peasants all the time being cheered on by you....no where to hide Blob. Oh and extreme is the Democrats wont change that either still no where to hide Blob.

For now finally this statement is extreme

"The left was wrong about everything"

You are the bloke with no clothes Blob.

Stunet

Re. The real refugees.

1/ We already have a considered refugee intake. We decide who comes. Full stop.

2/ We should give no benefit to illegal economic migrants claiming to be refugees.

3/ We should also help other real refugees to be generously supported in the countries nearest their homes with the goal being repatriation as soon as possible.

4/ For purposes of settlement within Australia we should discriminate in favour of refugees and other immigrants who have the best chance of successful integration.

5/ We should also discriminate against refugees and immigrants who are not likely to integrate successfully.

We have learned the hard way to implement some of these policies with obvious positive results.
We need to ditch the rest of the politically correct nonsense that stops us from implementing the others.

See, it isn't that hard.

HappyasS

Taking a useless swipe when you won't even back it up with a solitary fact.....
.....suggests you don't even have a solitary fact.

Ifocus

Are you libelling Trump with fake news again? You really should stop.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/11/trump_is_the_best_presi...

'...A dear friend who is active fighting anti-Semitism wrote me, “It is the strongest statement in support of Jews ever made by an American president.”

"President Trump is a promise keeper. He is unique among Presidents in keeping his campaign promises. When President Trump says anti-Semitism cannot be allowed to continue, it sounds like he means it. This may be, let us hope and pray, it may be of real significance"

"Democrats are indeed the anti-Trump. He has zero tolerance for anti-Semitism, they have 100% tolerance. They must have anti-Semites’ votes to get to their 90% bloc voting in the black community, and to kowtow to their progressives. Democrat tolerance of anti-Semitism is a national disgrace. And it is getting worse, far worse."

Ifocus

You say the right currently rule the western world.
You are wrong again
Was Malcolm Turnbull a conservative?
I know....silly question, of course Turnbull is a progressive.
Is Theresa May a conservative?
I know, silly question. Theresa May is doing all she can to frustrate the Brexit wishes of conservatives.
Is Angela Merkal conservative?.
I know, silly question Angela wants to turn Germany Turkish.
It's ironic that it took Trump, an ex democrat non conservative, to deliver on so many conservative objectives.
Still, a true conservative will prioritise balancing the budget......not much of that happening......and we all know where true power lies because when Tony Abbott attempted to prescribe some sour fiscal medicine he was topped by leftist media and progressives in the liberal party.

Ifocus

You say ther is no Left in the US.
Thanks for making me right by always being wrong.
Are there any Marxist professors in the universities?....check the data
Does antifa exist in the US.
Do many democrats want open borders, the legalisation of drugs, a guaranteed living wage?
Is Michael Moore American?
Does the new McCarthyism mean conservative must hide their politics to get any work in Hollywood?

When you say there is no Left in the US you are only saying you can't see the left because you are so extremely far left yourself.

Ifocus

Re. Transfer of wealth

You are wrong.

I'm for free thought and free enterprise.
I'm against crony capitalism, monopolies, big money influence and corporate welfare.
I'm for a strong business class, a strong middle class and opportunity for all.
We need better conservative leaders, not socialism.
For all its faults, capitalism has created more wealth, for all classes, than any other system. Ever.
We have the richest 'poor' in history, but you keep going on about inequality.
I'm all for improving our wonderful free market system...... but your leftism has always failed....Always. Failed.

Ifocus

I admit it, when I first heard it I thought the claim 'the left are wrong about everything' was hyperbole.....stretching a point to make a point maybe, but, as you say, extreme.
But then, try as I may, I couldn't find an instance where the left were correct, so I had to concede.
The good thing is that you can now expose my nakedness.....just show me an instance where the Left are right and I'll have to change my mind.

Hey Blob,

You went from 'did' - i.e "clear-eyed conservatives fixed the problem" - to 'should' without even blinking. I'm sure you know that we 'should' be doing those things except that we 'aren't'.

The problem has been swept away. Your claim of compassion is bogus.

@Blob 

RE TLIWAE

Off the top of my head...

FDR's New Deal's (First and Second)
The Limits to Growth
Pointing out the fallacy of perfect markets
Enforcing regulations that kerb market excesses
Wage increase for workers through unionism, and
Subsequent economic boom times following said wage rises
Rachel Carson and Silent Spring
Jack Mundey and Green Bans
Withdrawing Australian troops from Vietnam
Medicare (nee Medibank)
Pointing out that privitisation wouldn't lead to cheaper utitlities
Opposing unfettered capitalism that consumes finite resources at an unsustainable rate