What's what?
Our problem is not low wages, on a world scale our average and min wage is among the highest.
The number one problem is high cost of housing/rent because the market has been left to get out of control.(the main expense for most who rent or even have a mortgage)
High cost of other aspects like electricity etc because the top end are greedy.(and yes privatisation hasn't worked its made things worse)
Raising wages only increases the gap further between the rest of the world and us, sending even more low skilled jobs offshore adding to the problem.
The problem with times of low wage growth is not that wage growth is low, it's just that those at the top keep getting paid more and companies always want to make more so these aspects increase making the gap bigger between rich and the rest.
Most low skilled jobs can't be sent offshore indo, the manufacturing ones are already gone. The bulk of low paid jobs are in service industries: aged care, child care, 7/11 etc. Housing costs have been inflated by negative gearing. I worked with people who owned several properties. We are wealthy enough as a nation give everyone an income that keeps them well above the poverty line. If some are just too lazy to work well so be it. It is cheaper in the long run to give them an income than to pay the costs of higher crime rates and poorer community health.
How is the poverty line determined in Australia? Is there a definition?
bb, Housing costs have also been affected by other things besides negative gearing...but I'm sure you already knew this but were probably aiming for brevity in reply to Indo.
Foreign investment, population increases, and even global trends can affect the major cities pricing, especially when your city is ranked high for liveability.
Also you would have to consider such things as Taxes like stamp duty, although "...abolishment of stamp duty and the introduction of a broad-based land tax, would help bring housing prices back down to affordable levels". (theoretically)
Availability and affordability of land:
A land shortage in densely populated areas like Sydney and high-growth areas like Perth has also contributed to the rise in housing prices; as with any commodity, limited supply and greater demand result in higher prices. Land has also become more expensive for developers to purchase, mainly due to the imposition of government taxes. Many developers then pass these increased land costs onto buyers to increase their profit margins.
Overvaluation
A recent research paper released by the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) suggests that housing in Australia suggests that housing in Australia may be overvalued (which means that the home buyer would be better off renting than buying a similar dwelling). The paper suggests that at current prices, renting is probably a better financial decision for the average household than buying. This estimate is based on current house prices, rents, interest rates, capital appreciation, and other factors.
Labour and building costs
The ABS has found that the cost of building houses in Australia has increased almost fourfold in the past two decades. Increasing labour costs are a major contributing factor to the rise in housing prices; the most recent ABS survey into the construction industry found that the average labour cost per employee was $63,600 a year, well above the national average of $53,063.
If you're looking to buy your first property or add another investment to your property portfolio, it isn't all bad news. Although housing prices are on the rise, analysts are predicting that as they approach levels of unaffordability, they will more than likely fall. (The funny thing with this is that even if they do fall, they never really go down much)
https://www.allianz.com.au/home-insurance/news/expensive-housing-why-aus...
I really wonder how people can afford a basic house and land package of around $500 thou plus. What really annoys the fuck out of me is that the NSW liberal government did a study into the situation of housing affordability in NSW and concluded...well there's nothing we can do about it.
Unbelievable.
Though not surprising when you consider the fact that they have pretty much sold off every income generating state asset, and any move towards lowering house prices would mean a hit to their only major direct source of income, stamp duty. This tidy little tax earns the NSW government between 700 million and almost 1 billion dollars per month.
Indo writes
"I was on the dole for years, no one on the dole has a right to whinge, it's free money.
And its addictive free money, it the biggest trap and its hard to escape.
If you budget it's not hard at all (or it wasn't then), i even went to Indo on the dole, i traveled up and down the east coast on the dole living in vans, i partied every weekend on the dole, i even bought new boards on the dole."
Well there it is...... The biggest load of "back in my day " bullshit I've read in quite a while.
That's your response to my multi faceted post, indo? At least you got the "(or it wasn't then)" bit sorta right. Try living on the dole now bahahahahahaha... Even JOHN HOWARD reckons it's too low..
As far as you "buying new boards" and going up and down the coast goes, well at least that dole money went back into the cogs of the machine - bet the board maker and his apprentice weren't whining, bet the caravan park you stayed at were ok with it. Therein lies a certain message... Sure, 1% of those 5% on the dole were cruising like you back then. But were people happier? Yes..... Was it a more forgiving and kinder society? Yes... If you wanted to "make it", were their opportunities? Yes... By beating those youth today that are JUST LIKE YOU when you were young, what have we achieved? A snowball - first beat the youth, then the "abos", then the smokers, then the muslims, Then even those gen Y that DO have a job , now drinkers, hell lets beat sugar - a sugar tax.... Aaaaaaaand eventually, lets beat those that started us beating people back in the early 2000s - the government...
That's my point Indo... it's a snowball of judgement. And now extreme politicians like Hanson, Trump etc are pushing the snow ball down the hill straight towards mainstream parties.
Shit's gonna get a helluva lot worse yet.
$500,000 WOL? Might get you a small apartment in an old block around here!
Yeah but dont knock a sugar tax.
Haha bb...that did have the word "plus" after it. ...it would probaby be
In woopwoopsville.
Wow, this thread caught my eye. It has over 4500 comments. Waaay more than any other of any type on here. Interesting.
I went and had a look at the very first page.
Even more interesting.
The more things change, the more they stay the same, hey?
Worth a revisit for the die-hards on here?
Lobbyists, anyone?
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/series/the-transparency-project
Get involved!
And then there's advocacy!
Again, get involved?
A toolkit that can be easily adapted for whatever issue suits:
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/andrewleigh/pages/7087/attachments...
Westof - Notice anything about your reasons for high house prices ?
Insanely high population increase , Taxes and cost of building through regulations , land availability , foreign investment, negative gearing , capital gains
They’re ALL controlled by the government.
The liberal / Labour Party could’ve nipped this shit in the bud years ago. They could’ve let it go further than was acceptable by a decent margin but they were ultra greedy and could never stop ....even now they can’t stop .
Add that to the fact that they’ve got Washington breathing down their neck with the Neoliberal indoctrination * and it looks like house prices are going to go up and up ......till they can’t go up no more.
I’ve personally sold a bit of real estate over East in the last while as I reckon the wheels are about to fall off in quite a fashion.
* Read AndyM’s recent post about the Whitlam era. You believe they’ve taken their foot off out throat since then ?
And they’re still way , way more preferable an overseer than China.
So if you just sold a property Blowin, presumably you benefited from this heinous government behaviour.
Would you have been lining up to congratulate me on my brave moral stance if I’d foregone a profit and sold after the market had tanked BB ?
Or would you have thought - “ What a fucking idiot . Property at its highest inflection in many generations and he’s failed to capitalise.“
PS I sold over a year ago . I just thought that horse had run it’s race. Not a judgement on the state of the neoliberal experiment or a response to the dynamics of the predatory machinations of the Uber Capitalists who dine upon the weakness of humanity .
Or maybe it was all of the above . Maybe humanity’s weakness is also its strength. Maybe greed and self preservation between ourselves is what’s allowed and availed us as a species to dominate the other species and has been a major driver of our success.*
* Success being defined by the natural law of propensity to propagate and sustain increased populations as opposed to Lifty’s definition of natural success which is to have the environment dictate population levels. A definition that I don’t completely disagree with. But please don’t tell him that. He’ll assume he’s correct about anything else that spews from his mouth.
It was a cheap shot Blowin ...... but I couldn't resist it. I'm in no position to judge, it will provide my superannuation. (If it doesn't collapse before Xmas).
Yes blowin I understand what you're saying. The government does control all these things for sure, and both sides have had opportunity to address any and all of them, but continue to do fuck all to address the issue. Very annoying.
I will scroll back and take at look at those Whitlam era posts as suggested.
Like most things what goes up must come down. What's obvious is that even if house prices go down, they eventually over time seem to magically go back up again. Great if you're in the market, and as the neo liberal would say, tough titties if you're not.
I dare say you've made a prudent move selling last year and I hope you got yourself a super shack by the sea.
Mate , right now it’s a race. A race between unsustainable Sydney population increase and the inevitability of interest rate rises.
Who will win ?
Conveniently for you BB , the answer is entirely Sydneycentric . As is 99.9 percent of your world ( no judgement).
I can’t see the powers that be walking away from the wealth sustaining population explosion they’re enforcing. Not until they’ve run up against the wall of resentment that is building due to the comprehensive lack of accomodating infrastructure.
Do you realise that Sydney infrastructure alone accounts for the majority infrastructure spend of the entire nation ? Do you account for how much the taxpayer dollar of every state is paying to accommodate every new immigrant that keeps your property dollar afloat ?
Your superannuation is currently subsidised by every other regional Australian whilst we wait patiently for the new wave of immigration to start paying their way .
The reality is that it’ll be decades before any population increase returns a surplus to the economy of our country. If at all.
In the meantime your superannuation is looking pretty .
Glad we could help. By “ we “ I mean the rest of the nation that is struggling to get staffing for the local hospital so Sydney can enjoy it’s fantasy global city circle jerk.
Now that’s a cheap shot.
Good discussion from everyone on this page. It isn't just govco juicing the property equation in its favour - it was the availability of cheap credit (read: interest rates pushed to 5000 year lows by central banks in their action of placing a 'put' under markets). And then, turbocharging this, was the total collapse of lending standards as discovered by Nick Hubble and later everyone else:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-12/australias-banking-system-may-...
Worth a read, it's absolutely damning. Basically, if lenders were to actually enforce proper lending assessment in the last 15 years, things might not be so precarious now. Very interesting too, the implications for borrower and title to land and bank and entire financial system, if the lending documents are proved fraudulent...
"What I’m about to show you is a re-enactment of the American sub-prime crisis in Australia. With two key differences.
In Australia, the lenders, not the borrowers, are the ones lying on liar loans. The lenders and their mortgage brokers fudge the figures, such as income, to get a loan past lending standards.
And secondly, only in Australia has the court system established a precedent where, if you can prove your mortgage broker or banker manipulated your loan application, you can keep your home and cancel your mortgage. It’s a free house for the victim of the fraud, and a whopping loss for the banks. Or the investors in the securitised mortgages."
Of course this would open its own can of worms as it would reward those taking on huge loans at the expense of prudent savers. Moral hazard in every direction.
This is more the Swellnet politico thread, so this link is worth a look:
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2018/09/aussie-voters-shun-major-partie...
Another example of the middle falling away that I mentioned earlier - people are pissed off as "Voters are continually told how well they have it, yet our own lived experience of falling real wages, housing unaffordability, and declining amenity tells us otherwise."
Just saw this one Blowin:
"Hey VJ - Bit of an inconvenient truth for Swellnet’s resident bigot and indigenophile that one. The fact that the ancestors of many white Australians were victimised and treated in the virtually the exact same pitiful manner as black Australians during the same period of history by the same political and social elite is incongruous with his fictional portrayal of all Whiteys and their culture as a whole as evil , bloodthirsty and dominating."
Agree. The true magic moment is when you realise that you are also the product of an indigenous culture that survived 40,000, 80,000 years or more - after all you exist, you have incarnated, you are here - and that your background and history of your ancestors is precious and is to be celebrated as well. Wait till you start discovering the use of resonance and ley lines in the construction of monuments like Stonehenge, or that other ancestors traditions have survived into modern times: Father Christmas his sleigh and reindeer is actually Odin/Woden, still soaring across the sky at Yule. Our people are waking up.
It would seem that the people of Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland were some of the first to be subjected to the corporatist forms of control: these have nothing to do with free market and free enterprise, but rather the wholesale conversion of a people's resources (land, money, production) into ownership by an outside entity.
Identical stone circle carvings have been discovered all over the world, both in Australia and Europe; it suggests a past where all our ancestors had contact and similar iconography, but without the total bitching of identity politics.
Humanity consisting of humans you can rest assured there would have been some form of bitching going on
"Hey VJ - Bit of an inconvenient truth for Swellnet’s resident bigot and indigenophile that one. The fact that the ancestors of many white Australians were victimised and treated in the virtually the exact same pitiful manner as black Australians during the same period of history by the same political and social elite is incongruous with his fictional portrayal of all Whiteys and their culture as a whole as evil , bloodthirsty and dominating."
More 'loopy' racist bullshit. More racist lies. That got put to rest ages ago. Again.
https://www.homeloanexperts.com.au/blog/infographics/history-land-grants...
'Free', but factually, truthfully, stolen land given to convicts. Convicts who weren't classified as animals. Land stolen from the people who had occupied it for 80,000 years. People, Cultures who were the first humans to do so many things. These people, who have had so many racist lies, propaganda told about them to this day.
“It also means the time of overlap with the megafauna, for instance, is much longer than originally thought – maybe as much as 20,000 or 25,000 years. It puts to rest the idea that Aboriginal people wiped out the megafauna very quickly.”
'More than 10,000 artefacts were uncovered in the “zone of first occupation”, including ochre and reflective paint substances, as well as the oldest unbroken ground-edge stone axes in the world, by about 20,000 years, and the oldest known seed-grinding tools in Australia.'
“What we found was it’s not just one kind of hatchet head we’ve got, but four or five quite different kinds,” said professor Richard Fullagar from the University of Wollongong.
'Our new ages suggest that Australia was settled well before modern humans entered Europe about 45,000 years ago. This means that the earliest art and symbolism in Europe is of limited relevance to understanding modern technology and symbolic expression in South and Southeast Asia and Oceania.'
'Early paints recovered from the site also contained the world's oldest-known use of reflective minerals such as mica.
"We found there was an incredible richness of evidence of wonderful human behaviour'
'Professor Eske Willerslev of the University of Copenhagen, who led the study, says Aboriginal Australians were the first modern humans to traverse unknown territory in Asia and Australia. “It was a truly amazing journey that must have demanded exceptional survival skills and bravery,” he says.'
'“Australians are truly one of the world’s great human populations and a very ancient one at that, with deep connections to the Australian continent and broader Asian region. About this now there can be no dispute.”'
https://theconversation.com/buried-tools-and-pigments-tell-a-new-history...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-07-20/aboriginal-shelter-pushes-...
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jul/19/dig-finds-evidenc...
No, the lying, conniving, racist poms didn't actually 'discover' anywhere. Despite the propaganda. Still no surprise that some absolutely despise and hate the idea of that.
'She said she found racism against the indigenous population widespread.
“As I have travelled across the country, I have found the prevalence of racism against Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples deeply disturbing,” she said.'
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1373089/un-blasts-disturbing-racism-aborigi...
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/un-warns-racism-on-rise-in-austr...
Sober reading vj, especially the link to the article on Australia's banking system.
It made me reflect on a movie I saw called The big short. With virtually zero regulation and banks loaning to people who had no chance of repayment, the signs were there in broad daylight that entire property market was a house of cards. It was just a matter of time, and several groups of people were betting on it. What was more extraordinary was the way in which all players were complicit, even the "ratings agencies". If they didn't rate the junk collection of mortgages as triple A then the next one down the street would. This aspect of the financial system is so fucked up beyond words, yet remains (I believe ), legal.
.
Its 'advanced'. A 'sophisticated, advanced' system, based on a manic, psychopathic addiction to some yellow rocks. Placing some yellow rocks above all else. To this day, yellow rocks rule. Yellow rocks are fashionable too!!! Ya can't blame donny, he didn't invent the shit.
However, if you've got enough yellow rocks, and silicon too, then you are really advanced, sophisticated genius, and can really call the shots!!! 'There's gold in tham thar hills!!!'
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2018/09/us-versus-china-australia-unbel...
Very interesting opinion.
neoliberalism perfected
https://theconversation.com/privatising-westconnex-is-the-biggest-waste-...
How does it feel knowing that you’re a cash cow ?
Can I get a “ Mooooooooo ” from everyone in da house !
Do you ever get the feeling that the transnational corporations consider their lobbying costs as their tax burden ?
Somewhere earlier in the thread ID described the addiction of free money via the dole, and you get the feeling that contemporary govts are likewise addicted to free money via privatisation. Selling all the toll roads? Selling the Harbour Bridge?
Possibly
But i really believe in the addiction to free money, i use to justify it by saying i will pay it back in Tax one day, but looking back i was addicted because it was east money.
100% agree with the sense of entitlement aspect too that Tony banged on about.
When you get given something often you lose appreciation for its value, while when you work for it you appreciate it's value more.
Obviously we need support for those without, but long term it can also be damaging and trap people, whole demographics that only trap them and makes things worse for them long term.
100% support a more voucher based system, but agree it also is not perfect, many issues don't have complete answers. (etc fix a problem, just help with a problem)
The argument that it takes away (forgot the word) but self worth or freedom etc is kind of crazy, when you rely on a system of hand outs.
It’s more than just free money. West connex is being sold at a loss. It’s more the US style of government acting as an unabashed conduit of public money direct to corporations.
I had a mate who worked on a small(ish) town milk run . The accountability for the run was so lax and so awash with cash that my mate could plunder the cash box with impunity.
Another mate discovered this and asked the milk run boy if he’d mind stealing some money for him. Which he did. Regularly.
This reminds me of the state of politics in Australia.
Privatisation and PPPs and the like are all a con based on a lie that its bad for government to borrow money to build and/or hold public infrastructure. Small government, small taxes, blah blah we all know the lie by now.
Timely post Blowin' as I put an objection letter into an envelope for a an M7 toll I haven't paid. The thing is, the toll notice was incurred about 1 month before I brought my car second hand from a dealer.
I reckon if they had their chance they would be putting a toll on the M1, realise it's making money, then sell it off.
Reminds me of the Vales Point power station which was sold to a couple of guys for $1 million.
"Mr Flannery and Mr St Baker's acquisition of Vales Point in 2015 was last year valued at around $720 million. At the time of the sale, the NSW government said $1 million was above its actual value".
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/power-grab-rich-lister-eyes-pa...
Good read that macrobusiness link from Blowin. I really would hope that the next step after trade war is never realised, ever.
I really liked the comment "We need a federal ICAC. We need to ban political donations and introduce public funding for political parties".
But with both major parties losers in this scenario, what chances are there of a Federeal ICAC, let alone public funding for political parties?
I mean for every vote the parties receive for the House of Reps, if the 1st preference vote percentage is above 4%, then they get about $2.38 for each vote. i.e we already fund political parties, after the fact, so it's all ass around, and guaranteed to make political parties with limited financial resources unable to make any real dint into the political ring.
Or you could be a multi millionaire and buy your way in, like big Clive is trying to do again with his TV ads already gracing the air waves. But seriously, who would vote for this clown after the last election debacle, and in consideration of his business activities. Alas, many still will, but it wont be anything like last time.....but who knows for sure.
Well they probably had to paint it, new carpet and landscaping.
That doesn't come cheap. Probably advertised as a fixer-upper.
Haha Zen, I wish I could turn a $1 mill investment into something that earns over $100 million profit in one year.....but I doubt they gave it a new paint job.
"
Back in 2015, the government had struggled to find a buyer for the station, and then treasurer Gladys Berejiklian said the $1 million purchase price was above its “retention value”.
The sale saved taxpayers from “ongoing losses”, as well as the costs of decommissioning the plant, estimated in the tens of millions of dollars."
Meanwhile, it continues to operate and make hundreds of millions of dollars. Superior Liberal economic management right there.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/let-s-stop-whispering-about-migratio...
The SMH has been slow to acknowledge the shifting cultural sands. But it’s a start. No doubt they’ll attempt to mollify and mitigate the pragmatics that wish to halt the unsustainable immigration levels that support their business by redirecting the debate towards regional dispersion of immigrants.
That is not a solution.
Thanks for the SMH link Blowin.
As a passionate amateur demographer the population trend is disturbing for current citizens and future generations. The population is growing by approximately 380,000 people per year - migrants account for 240,000 of that figure. Growth junkies won't buy it though and remain aloof to the issue as do many vested interest groups. But as I've stated on Swellnet before, Oz is tracking for 100,000,000 people by the year 2100,at current intake rates. Sure, this is likely to change - and may well be much higher! Our coasts are choking and the future seems Malthusian unless we can green the deserts - sustainably!!! We will also be compelled for humanitarian reasons to accept many from our region if climate predictions are accurate. Our current bipartisan commitment to high/mass immigration now is selling out future generations. Immigration has enriched our nation and Oz needs sensible, well planned levels of around 50,000-75,000 people per year ideally. Dick Smith for prime minister!!!
It's good that this issue is starting to get more media attention.
It is sad though that some people seem to put some correlation between race and sustainable population growth, i really don't get that angle it has nothing t all to do with race it's really a green issue.
Problem is government success is measured on a healthy economy and the easiest way to fuel this is with high immigration rates, even if in reality it has a negative impact on our quality of life.
After a few days in the UK it is clear that politics here are moving rapidly left. While PM May advertises the UK as an extreme Neo-liberal state, Opposition Leader Corbyn makes a speech to the Labour Conference talking about renationalising a variety of industries, providing universal free child care and legislating for workers to take 10% equity in companies with more than 250 workers. It would be great to see a similar choice in Australia instead of Labor = Coalition light.
First day in Liverpool we walked into an anti-Brexit Demo outside the Labour conference. Spent a few days there and the last couple in Glasgow. The boundaries are stark in both cities. Wealth and poverty side by side in a way I haven't seen in Australian cities. Hard not to see this as a reflection of the policies May was promoting in the UN.
Hey Andy,
Thoughts on the latest ABC brouhaha? For mine, it's pretty obvious now why they dont run stories that challenge the consensus. Bye bye funding.
BB - Have you asked anyone their opinions on Brexit ?
Stu - it's all a bit beyond me apart from stating the obvious that for Justin Milne to approach Guthrie and insist on Emma Alberici's sacking because "the government don't like her" is outrageous.
The ABC were brought to heel a long time ago, certainly with regard to global politics.
And when the PM has to trot out lines like this...
"Time for the ABC to resume normal transmission, both independently and without bias. That is what Australia’s taxpayers pay for and deserve."
...then you know there are entrenched issues regarding independence (or lack of) that the current government are quite happy with.
I was going to write that they need to get rid of that Milne fellow, but alas he already just resigned this morning.
From what I gathered his only experience as a CEO was while he was at Ozemail (which was a bit of a fail, except for Malcolm Turnball who purchased a stake in Ozemail in 1994 for $500,000 and sold his stake for $57 million in 1999 to WorldCom ) and the fact that he is on the NBN board (another on going fail).
Blowin, I haven't asked anyone directly as I get the impression that even raising the subject at this stage is considered rude. It has come up a couple of times and produced a general rolling of the eyes. I think most people just want it finished, whatever the outcome. I should be catching up with some of my cousins next week and I know that at least one of them will leave me in no doubt about his opinions! Heading off to check Loch Lomond this morning. We'll probably take the high road.
"Serious questions remain to be answered about political interference at the ABC.
These issues go the health of our democracy and can only be addressed through a full and public inquiry.
The independence and integrity of the ABC is paramount.
This Liberal Government has ripped hundreds of millions of dollars out of the ABC, meddled in its affairs and launched relentless ideological attacks on public broadcasting.
The ABC is the public broadcaster, not a State broadcaster.
The Australian people deserve answers and the Liberal Government cannot be trusted to provide them." - Michelle Rowland
Any arguments with that?
I like the ABC and listen and watch it especially radio as i just hate commercial radio and sadly RRR and 3PBS have just turned to absolute crap.
But OMG the ABC is so left wing bias.
I just wish they would take a more neutral position after all, all tax payers contribute to it.
Occasionally while I'm listening, a presenter will read out the feedback they get from a contentious story or interview and it's surprising how both sides think they're hard done by. Across the board - local and national - complaints about political bias at ABC radio are split roughly 50/50 left right. I think those complaints reveal more about the listener than anything else.
The ABC's charter requires it to provide a politically neutral news/consumer service.
If it were left wing at all government and the electorate could and would immediately take it to task.
AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING KALEIDOSCOPIC JOIN-THE-DOTS/ADULT COLOURING BOOK EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT IN NARCISSISTIC/ONANISTIC BIG PICTURE PARASITIC FORUM BLEEDING.
LIKE POLITICAL LIFE, PARTICIPATION IS WELCOME, ENCOURAGED EVEN, BUT NOT NECESSARY.