What's what?

Great contribution to the conversation, fellas.

" But to be more precise, they are curated democracies, with members of an unelected elite policing the boundaries of acceptable opinion and excluding heretics. Members of this elite are, by their own estimation, guardians of truth and good sense. They know what is best."

OK let's think about this. Who exactly belongs to this unelected elite, and how do they police the boundaries of acceptable opinion? If they are supposed to be the mainstream media then where are these boundaries? Seems to be a pretty wide range of opinion getting out there. What exactly cannot be said? Well there are laws, but they were made by elected governments so they are not what has been referred to. Beyond that it's pretty much down to creating an audience for your opinions and ideas. So if the policing is being done by public opinion, what's the complaint?
If you are thinking of academics, then they have a limited audience and once their ideas are outside the walls of their institutions then they are open to analysis and criticism like anyone else's.

So what are we left with? Not much, sounds like someone whose ideas and opinions have failed in the public domain and has been reduced to some vague conspiracy involving an anonymous elite daring to suggest that his views are actually, stupid, boring or repellant. Still it's the kind of crap a lot of people just swallow whole so it could have a more nefarious intention. The financial markets thrive on instability, opportunities arise when prices move either way. Create a bit of discontent based on some manufactured fear or grievance. Push it hard and, if enough people swallow the bait, hey presto, opportunity comes along as the markets move.

Exact , BB . He’s referring to the media and academia.

Take Australia’s level of immigration.

Policy is colluded by the only available options of government. This is reinforced by near universal support by the msm . Academics who choose to have their voices heard toe this line. Find me one msm who supports the policy of zero net migration. Actually, that’s an extremely valid policy, but you probably find it too extreme, so find me a msm outlet who supports halving the current rate of net OS migration.

You will struggle , because despite the variety of left/right msm news outlets , none support a reduction in immigration.

You didn’t really have to search too far if you genuinely wanted to see did you , BB ?

So your views on immigration are similar to Pauline Hanson whose party fielded candidates in the last election. People had a clear opportunity to vote for that policy ........ and they over-whelmingly chose not to. My point is that the idea that elites somehow shut down debate has no supporting evidence. Recent articles in the smh and other mainstream publications have highlighted public concerns about immigration. There has been plenty of very public debate ........ but so far this has not translated into action. Why? Political parties (well except Hanson's) are not about single issues. So they calculate that their loss of votes from immigrant communities out weighs any votes to be gained from from restricting it, though Slomo has promised reductions. This is the way politics works. You might dislike it but you are not going to change it. To blame some sort of elite for the fact that a popular policy has not been implemented is delusional, if not paranoid.

Find me the the SMH article which actively pushes for a substantial reduction in immigration, not just an article which acknowledges public concern as they know the public will wish to read it and therefore buy their papers.

Find me the single SMH article.

Find me a single article in the academic’s voice - The Conversation.

The major parties attempted public collusion on the issue as they knew it was an election winner, then the LNP blinked first and pursued their half pregnant immigration reforms.

The smh is one publication. I don't subscribe to the Murdoch press but I suspect you would find what you are looking for there ....... or on Fox News.

Ha ha ha Google immigration daily telegraph ......

I honestly believe I’ve found the worst idea ever suggested for Australian territory.

And that includes Maralinga.

https://theconversation.com/refuge-city-a-new-kind-of-city-for-our-times...

Changing the subject again Blowin!

Kind of hard to take that article seriously Blowin especially with the photo at the bottom.

It looks like satire but I don't think it is.

Scoglad just passed 1 year immigration budget savings. Shh!
2006 Johnny raised from 2 > 4 years wait for Oz Citizenship Showbags.
Currently once 4 years is up, next week's ceremony & Healthcare/Hecs is yours.
Council Citizenships must run often as per LNP Johnny's Citizenship Rulebook.
Greens are the only major party sticking by LNP Johnny's Citizenship Guidelines

Lovebirds now make them wait the 4 years +Tag on extra Year holdout until Jan 26.
Caring Govt books intakes Feb/March knocks 200,000 newbies from budget loop.

With 200,000 (3 grand finals) of costumes/Certificates & hands to shake
Home Affairs paints targets on 200,000 waving I.D. (Passports/Bills/Bank-cards)

Councils can't afford triple a/hrs to serve masses...loads go begging another year.
About 50 / 2hrs seems large.Some councils are gonna sweat over 400 handshakes.
Should you get muscled out of Town Hall twice.Then tell gran she needs to reapply.
Also tell your Mum not to have a baby on Oz Hecs day.

Wog wars & brown paper bags it's on.Out of my way you...See ya in the carpark!
Oz day is now immigrant musical chairs day. Race is on for The Golden Ticket!

ScoGlads finest hour scoops an extra years savings on LNP extended 4 years
Any fool can see Asian Students snap up #1 Hecs Handouts + Gran lives forever!
Promo's illegal scam politicizes Australia Day. He oughta be ashamed of himself!

Barnaby the Beetrooter's 'retail politician' protege.

Little to be proud of...

Heard the news Brambles has "sired" another kid, gunna be born sometime soon, already named him Tom. Brambles is proving to be quite the stud.

Good discussion back and forth. Today I came across

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/11/the-gilets-jaunes-are-unstoppable/

which is really worth a read. French author Christophe Guilluy has some form and some important books on this topic. I must admit a fascination with what is happening in France, partly because it is very far away (life remains "nice" here) and partly as I studied revolutions quite extensively as an undergraduate - albeit under the tuition of mostly Marxist professors.

I can see the preconditions of 1789 in the yellow vests - vastly detatched and centralised political class, and very real, impoverished working class revolting. I am surprised the more left posters here are not writing in support of the workers, for unlike Russia with Lenin, there is no 'vanguard' group that will carry out the people's uprising for them, it seems the people have actually taken events into their own hand.

Some good quotes set the scene, and it very much is as geographic a phenomenon as it is political:

"Christophe Guilluy: ‘Peripheral France’ is about the geographic distribution of the working classes across France. Fifteen years ago, I noticed that the majority of working-class people actually live very far away from the major globalised cities – far from Paris, Lyon and Toulouse, and also very far from London and New York."

"One illustration of this cultural divide is that most modern, progressive social movements and protests are quickly endorsed by celebrities, actors, the media and the intellectuals. But none of them approve of the gilets jaunes. Their emergence has caused a kind of psychological shock to the cultural establishment. It is exactly the same shock that the British elites experienced with the Brexit vote and that they are still experiencing now, three years later."

"Guilluy: We have a new bourgeoisie, but because they are very cool and progressive, it creates the impression that there is no class conflict anymore. It is really difficult to oppose the hipsters when they say they care about the poor and about minorities."

"But actually, they are very much complicit in relegating the working classes to the sidelines. Not only do they benefit enormously from the globalised economy, but they have also produced a dominant cultural discourse which ostracises working-class people. Think of the ‘deplorables’ evoked by Hillary Clinton. There is a similar view of the working class in France and Britain. They are looked upon as if they are some kind of Amazonian tribe. The problem for the elites is that it is a very big tribe."

"The middle-class reaction to the yellow vests has been telling. Immediately, the protesters were denounced as xenophobes, anti-Semites and homophobes. The elites present themselves as anti-fascist and anti-racist but this is merely a way of defending their class interests. It is the only argument they can muster to defend their status, but it is not working anymore."

"Now the elites are afraid. For the first time, there is a movement which cannot be controlled through the normal political mechanisms. The gilets jaunes didn’t emerge from the trade unions or the political parties. It cannot be stopped. There is no ‘off’ button. Either the intelligentsia will be forced to properly acknowledge the existence of these people, or they will have to opt for a kind of soft totalitarianism."

It was nice to see Mr Guilluy pick up the fact the protest is uncontrollable; it has no defined 'leadership' to co-opt and is a bit like 4Chan in the cyberspace. This is truly new, for as I examine many revolutions before, none had the technology to instantly connect the, let's say it, proletariat and allow their grievances to ebb and flow organically. No matter how many young Josef Stalin's were on a retainer as socialist newspaper writers in Brooklyn before October, 1917 (that story is fascinating: who paid for the bolsheviks and how they were transported to Russia to carry out their revolution, and who benefited, but that's another story).

Good article , VJ. Very relevant.

Have you noticed how little attention has been given to the Yellow vests in Australia ? That illustrates just how much collusion there is amongst the status quo .

Regards Macron , I nearly pissed myself when I first read about him being discussed as a centrist. Then when I read that Le Pen was being undermined using the same farcical “Russian plant “ tactic as had been deployed in the Trump and Brexit situations , I knew that France was truly up against it.

I can't see a happy ending in France. The most likely thing, which Macron is hoping for, is that the movement will run out of steam. The other possibilities are that it will be torn apart by internal divisions or lead to genuine economic and social dislocation. More hopefully all these disruptions Trump, Brexit etc will lead to political and economic reforms via the ballot box. Not holding my breath on that one. It is easy to rail against the more priveleged sections of the middle classes but they are not the problem, they are just an elite class of servants working for the ultra rich. There will not be any meaningful reform until governments take on the theft of the wealth of the world by the parasitic class. Revolution? Who cares? Just move the assets to a safe haven and watch the plebs murder each other in the street ......... already happens across the developing world. You don't really think the developed economies are safe ........ do you?

How can reforms come via the ballet box when there’s no credible alternative at the moment ?

I voted against the majors here as symbolic of my disenchantment with their direction and got pilloried by yourself. You even gave me the line that I’d done it through racism ! You’re doing their dirty work .

Voting for racists is not a way forward. I suppose you either have some hope that political processes, hopefully democratic, will lead to positive changes ...... or you don't. If the former you keep putting forward the positive ideas that need to be implemented eg massive corporate and personal tax reform, if the latter, well that's your call Blowin. We are very fortunate in Australia that we have avoided the worst of the economic "reforms" that have undermined the standard of living for large sections of the population in both the US and Europe ........which presumably explains why, so far at least, we have avoided the kind of political crises being experienced there.

We’ve got a worse political crises right here right now than both Trump and Brexit.

From VJ's article -

"We have a new bourgeoisie, but because they are very cool and progressive... it is really difficult to oppose the hipsters when they say they care about the poor and about minorities."

"But actually, they are very much complicit in relegating the working classes to the sidelines. [T]hey have also produced a dominant cultural discourse which ostracises working-class people. "

Sounds very, very familiar on this site.

When so-called enlightened progressives view any form of protest as racist, well, that certainly helps out those that are fucking us over.

It's brilliant the way this has been manipulated.

Well we have an environmental crisis Blowin, no doubt about that. But a political crisis? Nah nothing in the same league as Trump or Brexit. A political vacuum maybe inthe sense that both parties are trying to occupy similar policy areas. Frustrating, but not as profoundly threatening to good governance as the others.

Both parties are denying the population the democratic representation they require. Leading us down the “ Big Australia “ road with no mandate .

It’s called authoritarianism, BB.

What you’re afraid of happening in the US is already here. The result?

Corruption, worsening standards of living , declining liveability and the mother of all financial hardships just over the horizon due to their colluding to actively promote the greatest asset bubble in Australia’s history.

"Big Australia"? Well it's a big world ...... and is going to continue to getting bigger for the rest of the century. We can engage with that or do the ostrich and pretend it's not happening, nothing to do with us etc etc. you think that will work to our benefit. I think it would be short-sighted and risky as our diplomatic and military powers decreased in an ever more dangerous world.

Please don’t tell me you’ve honestly swallowed the “ do our bit “ line that is being fed to the gullible in order to bolster support for the globalisation wealth extraction process

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/01/davos-elites-push-open-borders-...

You should be at Davos , BB.

Till you start thinking for yourself, you’re just a shill for the 1 percent club.

BTW - Majority immigration to Australia came from countries who’s growth rates are declining. So your “ Take a kick in the nuts for the team “ posture is a double fraud.

No I am saying that population growth is in our own interest ..The rest is just you doing your usual thing of putting words in my mouth.

How is population growth in our interest?

Please explain how your positives outweigh the huge pile of negatives.

You're all over the place BB, one minute you're saying that we have an environmental crisis and next you say that "population growth is in our own interest".

It's also very interesting that you're on-side with Tony Abbott and The Australian.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/population-growth-is-in-o...

Christophe Guilluy?? AKA the French Steve Bannon.

"Ultimately, through spreading simplistic, unfounded sociological nostrums at the expense of real analysis and meaningful argument, the self-proclaimed experts on the gilets jaunes risk eliding the real issues, if not blowing on the embers of the mouvement."

Some early real analysis:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/12/yellow-vests-urban-periurban-planning...

Jacobin, indeed!

(you may have to Google)

Another thing...always, ALWAYS consider who and what makes it (and doesn't!) into the Corporate/'Mainstream' Media sphere wherever it may be. This broadcasted commentary will betray/supply the 'why'.

Think Guilluy...or even Leith van Onselen (oi!) for example.

Chomsky 101.

(Hah! A '101' nod to Ol' Sypkan)

The environmental problems are bad management .......... sorry make that greed and gross stupidity. Population, as such, has nothing to do with them. The positives are; one, we don't end up economically stagnant like Japan, two, we maintain our regional and international status so other countries take our interests more seriously, three, we reduce the risk of uncontrolled immigration (stopping the boats was only possible with the co-operation of Asian nations, stop immigration and see if they are still willing) four, we reduce the risk of war in Asia by taking our share of refugees, five, a larger population increases our capacity for creating and sustaining domestic industries (remember cars?) six, increased populations in rural areas increases available labour and creates more vibrant and interesting communities (anyone up for a weekend in Young? Thought not.) should I go on?

Got time to follow up - briefly. BB agree with your 12:42 post. Have you considered Australia has dodged it so far as we are one 'cycle' behind the Americans and Euros? That our true GFC is "this time round?". There are a lot of slimy loans still out there granted on slippery figures.
Also picked up on the news feeds this morning is that 50% increase of private jets flying into Davos area this year = 50% more CO2 produced for the central planning managment class's meet up.
factotum - I think Bannon was over there but what I can read in French from French individuals reporting it via twitter etc, they don't really want to associate with his views. Their ideals are something else. Bannon is more liasing larger movements like the 5Star/Northern League running Italy (guess what, the populists are running a country and it's still working for now) and other nations like Austria, Hungary, Poland etc. I know of the Jacobins, the Reign of Terror, Robespierre's disjointed jaw at execution etc.
Here's some pics of the running protests, caution, graphic:
https://twitter.com/davduf?lang=en

You could be right vj but I think a lot of the economic crisis talk at the moment is over-stated. I suspect the main risk, again, is the insane and unethical behaviour of US financial institutions in piling up dodgy debt into securities and then using that as security for even more debt. It is corporate debt this time rather than household but there is some potential for GFC2. Australia though would still be well placed to ride it out with less drama than other developed countries.

BB :

One - Japan was economically stagnant with a population multiples larger than our own so population size is no guarantee against stagnant economy. Unless you’re recommending unending, infinite population growth....hmmm.

2-Australia’s status internationally has never been dependent on the size of our population. We will never be as large as Indonesia and Fiji etc will never be as large as us . We will be taken seriously internationally for the only reason we ever were .....because we have something to offer. Whether it be resources or a potential threat which would prevent invasion.

3- Our immigration levels have absolutely zero to do with the willingness of our neighbors to assist in cooperating with our border protection. Assistance depends mostly on aid levels and political expediency. And corruption.
Most of our immigrants come from India and China , neither of who have any influence in our prevention of uncontrolled immigration. Quite the opposite .

4- Huh ? The only threats from Asia would be China and Indonesia. Neither of who we host as refugees.

5- You could be partially correct here. But obviously our manufacturing base has evaporated despite massive increases in population. The population required to sustain a purely domestic car industry is already reached . Any reemergence of such an industry is now reliant on political will to protect the industry from the perils of competing against foreign companies operating on the premise of sub- living standard of worker remuneration .

6- There is no jobs to require increased labour in regional areas. Unemployment is sky high in most regional areas already. If there were jobs then current immigrants would be flocking to the regions as they did to the Pilbara during the mining boom. But there’s no jobs , so immigrants don’t go there.

Immigrants increasing the vibrancy of regions ! Well you can’t get much more immigrant rich than Western Sydney and just look at the rush of Australians visiting there for their holidays and long weekends ....

So yeah , you probably should go on as you’ve yet to put forward a single valid argument.

"5- You could be partially correct here. But obviously our manufacturing base has evaporated despite massive increases in population. The population required to sustain a purely domestic car industry is already reached . Any reemergence of such an industry is now reliant on political will to protect the industry from the perils of competing against foreign companies operating on an premise of sub- living standard of worker remuneration ."

Not just that but also protection via distorted currency pegs, outright tariff or duties, no environmental or OH&S legislation, zero-tax/free land incentives for producers... while we give our industry the highest electricity prices in the world, red tape and CO2 quotas, etc. It's like Australia is in one of those dreams where you realise you are the only one in the room without pants and everyone is looking at you...

Blowin, Japan's economic stagnation occurred because of a declining and aging population. Exactly where we would already be without immigration.
No our international status does depend on our population as that increases our global trade, the size of our economy and the size of our military.

So Indonesia is willing to soak up ALL the regugees that might itherwise have taken boats to Australia. Try running that by Joko.

It is not about direct threats to Australia it is about further disruption, more refugees, more need for military intervention etc etc (remember Vietnam?)

Larger population = larger domestic market = greater international competitiveness

Well I actually do visit western Sydney a couple of times a year. Cabramatta for Vietnamese food is a favourite and if there is no shortage of labour in rural areas why are we handing out temporary visas for people to work there?

"Blowin, Japan's economic stagnation occurred because of a declining and aging population. Exactly where we would already be without immigration."

Way too simplistic as well as factually incorrect BB.

"The environmental problems are bad management .......... sorry make that greed and gross stupidity. Population, as such, has nothing to do with them."

You're not saying that with a straight face are you?
Because simple biology disagrees with you.

freeride Japan's problems began with poor economic management. With normal demographics it should have been able to recover. Most analysts point to the difficulty in getting economic growth from an ageing, shrinking population as a major factor in its inability to recover. Other factors? Probably, but after 20 years and various policy settings it is hard to avoid the conclusion that demographics are a huge part of the problem. Travelling through Japan it is common to see quite elderly, I'm talking 80s, people working in menial jobs. Not a future I think most of us aspire to.

I stand by my assertion that our environmental problems are of our own making. If simple biology suggests I am wrong, well I have spent a significant part of my life working and studying that subject and I can't see it. Enlighten me.

Even if a SINGLE one of your points was correct, BB , which they aren’t , none of them comes even remotely close to justifying the egregious problems which occur by relentlessly increasing Australia’s population.

Not even close.

Unsustainable demands on very limited water supplies vs possible Vietnamese restaurants at Young .

You’re kidding right ?

There’s not enough fucking water to go around .

How’s that for a start ?

Desalination plants were required in Sydney BEFORE they added another million people. You ever drank desalinated water every day , BB ? It makes you feel like shit . There’s no minerals in it. Minerals are essential to human health. Unless you think we should all just start drinking water with all goodness stripped from it to satisfy your taste for Vietnamese food ?

So you never wondered how they manage in the Middle East with less water than us? There are a few different ways. Desalination is probably the least efficient. Recycling sewage to drinking water is really a better option and poses no problems. So,yeh as long as we take huge volumes of water out of our rivers, use it once and pump it into the ocean we do run the risk of water shortages in population centres. In terms of our river systems we need to stop dumping sewage in them and make environmental flows the top priority. Not good news for those currently destroying them but essential in the long term, so why not do it now? So unsustainable water use? Nah, just bad management.

You realise that recycled water goes through the exact same asset stripping routine as desalination don’t you ?

So you think we should all live in tiny high rise boxes and drink recycled shit so that people from other countries can move here for their convenience ?

You’re not doing a very good job of selling this , BB.

Basic biology BB......

Human beings are animals. Animals require resources like food and water to survive.

More human beings, more demand for resources.

Thats not even taking into account demand for things like housing, schools, infrastructure, hospitals, etc etc.

Australia is an arid country with a thin strip of hospitable land on its fringes, and even that is becoming more arid and with less reliable rainfall.

Do we need to get more basic?

With the best management in the world, more human beings will always put more pressure on the environment.

And yes, l Iike Vietnamese food too. There's a really cool little restaurant in Ballina.
Fucked if I'd go to Cabramatta for a feed though.

Sorry to tell you Blowin but water is water and the water you drink has been recycled naturally millions of times and in all probability has passed through many different organisms. Recycled water is ....... just water. No shit, no piss, nothing but....... water. Yeh it can be a hard sell but people get used to the idea pretty quickly. High rise boxes? Selling like hot cakes so seems like you are the odd one out. A lot of people like living close to the city for work and entertainment and prefer the low maintenance of an apartment. Funny that Blowin, you know different strokes for different folks. Not everyone thinks like you or wants what you want.

freeride last time I looked well over half the food produced in Australia was exported and we are nowhere near capacity production. I just went through the water issues with Blowin. So sorry it's not basic biology.

For a smart man, apparently well versed in basic biology you seem strangely ignorant of the challenges a warming, drying climate poses to Aus food security.

From the Aus Dept of Agriculture and Water Resources (ABARE).

Climate change is affecting cropping farm productivity
The recent changes in climate have had a significant negative effect on the productivity of Australian cropping farms, particularly in south-western Australia and south–eastern Australia (Figure 2). In Western Australia, climate conditions between 2000–01 and 2014–15 lowered TFP by an average of 7.7 per cent—relative to what would have been seen under long-run average conditions (1914–15 to 2014–15). In New South Wales climate conditions post 2000–01 lowered productivity by an average of 6.5 per cent.

A similar pattern is observed for wheat yields, although the climate effects are larger. Climate conditions between 2000–01 and 2014–15 lowered national wheat yields by around 11.9 per cent relative to long-run conditions (16.3 per cent in Western Australia and 14.8 per cent in Victoria).

More basic biology: One of our most iconic species, the Koala is under severe threat.

What threatens?

Loss of Habitat
Clearing of the land for expansion of human settlement, for example, for agriculture, housing, mining, forestry, shops, factories and roads.

A lot of that low productivity, infertile soil eucalyptus forest that gets cleared for housing estates is Koala habitat.

Surely you are aware?

So, what do we do. Maintain Sydney and Melbourne as perpetual work sites and turn them into high rise domains so we save the Koala?

Otherwise, all those new suburbs may well see the koala go extinct in our lifetimes.

BB - I had to exist almost on desalinated water for almost four years , it is not e en remotely like fresh water or even bottled water. It not only tastes like shit , It makes you feel like shit .

So how about you try talking about something which you have the tiniest bit of real experience instead ?

Climate change is an issue but, assuming we effectively limit global emissions over the next decade, it should not significantly reduce agricultural capacity, particularly since it is nowhere near capacity at present. If we don't limit emissions then agricultural production will be the least of our problems.
In terms of urban planning, yeh same thing again, we have had decades of bad management. It just doesn't make sense for cities to sprawl but the political will to persuade people that they can survive on less than a quarter acre took a long time to arise. Now the culture has moved a long way and will continue in the direction of greater population density, which has numerous environmental and social benefits. Could Australia support a large population with its traditional approaches to these issues? Probably not, but that's the past. The future is a different place and yes, in the future Australia can support a significantly larger population with less environmental damage.

Says the bloke who’s selling his apartment in Sydney and moving down the coast for some space , peace and quiet.

Fuck your Big Australia, BB.

What ever happened to the cautionary principle you used to bray about regularly ? I guess now it’s just a case of cram ‘em in and cross our fingers .

So where was that Blowin? Maybe there were problems with older technology but with reverse osmosis all you get is water, pure water.

In the North West of Australia. Cutting edge facilities. 2017.

It’s not water as you’ve ever known it and apart from a strange taste you’d not appreciate just how unnatural it is till youve consumed it regularly. It truly is terrible shit.

The problem is that it is water , pure water. But fresh water isn’t PURE , it has trace elements and other unidentified qualities which are essential to complete health. Maybe even an energy or a life force ? But desal water is dead as a door nail.

Living on desalinated water is akin to living on a diet consisting of nothing but processed food cooked in a microwave . You may exist , but you will never thrive. And you will feel like shit in the meantime.

And why is it that Australians must be faced with this circumstance ?

You’ve still not put forward a single reason why we should compromise and expect less in every aspect of our lives to accommodate the wishes of others.