AFL racism
Shatner'sBassoon wrote:Marngrook Footy Show definitely was last night!
The way in which Gilbert called out Ackermanis was gold...showed who the truly respectful man was.
Udo.."Caste is a word describing social grouping or status and the term half-caste describes somebody who is not completely worthy of high caste status because one of their parents is from a lower caste, as was the case when blacks were considered by the consensus to be of lower privilege than whites.
To still use this word now is to suggest that difference in social status still exists and thus its offensiveness is in part similar to the way 'the n-word' is offensive. Of course, a person who uses the term today might be wholly unaware of its original connotation but indeed it is clear why some might be offended by it."
So yes you are racist..telling jokes about spitting altar boys also shows that you also find the rape of children funny...ya never explained that one except for a pathetic try at defining splitting.....
So yes I am very serious when someone like you comes on here telling Child abuse jokes ...then trys to put AG into a caste.....14 , 1/2???
what was your point with even asking AC's caste??
maybe this whole issue will make many more of us start seeing everyone as humans- just like ourselves but with variations- this way there is a common bond of empathy, compassion and respect.
i hope that's the case anyway.
dave & brutus ... this is off topic but you might like it as it goes to your points of we are all humans & the word caste (in an Indian context).
davetherave wrote:maybe this whole issue will make many more of us start seeing everyone as humans- just like ourselves but with variations- this way there is a common bond of empathy, compassion and respect.
i hope that's the case anyway.
I don't think so, all it is going to do at the AFL is make people self conscious about booing anyone that does not have white skin in fear that they will be perceived as being racist.
To me thats the irony because now we will be looking at people and focussing on their race and skin colour and treating them differently based on skin colour or race.
To me thats a huge step backwards.
Today Heritier "Harry" Lumumba (Harry O brien) now a Demons player will play against his former team Collingwood, I'm fairly sure this is the first game against his old team, normally this would mean Collingwood fans will give a player gone to another team a good booing, however seeing Harry has darker skin and vocal on race issues etc..will people now treat him differently for fear of being labelled racist?
I guess we will see.
Here's another point of view....https://www.facebook.com/VotenoToConstitutionalChange/posts/884159574987854
kaiser wrote:I don't follow AFL so I am not intimately aware of the goings-on, but to draw parallels with the haka is incorrect IMO. The theatre of sport is two teams of combatants going at it, and the supporters of respective teams supporting theirs and deriding the other. There is a pretty clear distinction between those playing and those watching.
The haka is an aggressive or combative act from players to players - not players to spectators. From what I saw, when he did the routine and aimed it at the crowd, he was inviting the fight. No doubt it was in response to the shit he had already copped, but he made a clear physical challenge to the people in the stands. Obviously they can't come on the field and belt him, so they voice their opinion instead. It has definitely gone on too long, but you can't be surprised that the crowd would go him for it.
Don't pigeon hole the haka bro. You have that all wrong. It has a lot more meaning, just check this.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/entire-kiwi-school-performs-...
So drawing Parallels with the Haka is correct. The Aboriginal war dance is nowhere to be seen in a celebration in Australia sport. Love to see Pocock pick up a spear and throw it Goodes like-style this weekend for the bledisloe when the call comes out Ka tū te wanawana - Our dominance will triumph (again haha)
Shame Aussies don't support Goodes more, shame Aussies don't support Aboriginals more in bringing it.
From Goodes side he should be able to just get on with it.....whats that old saying as kids 'sticks and stones will break your bones but names will never hurt' . Best way is to play and play well. The fact that he can't must be torture.
I'm not buying into the whole racist card. I reckon there is a general lack of respect from people to people. From a kiwi living here there is an underbelly of respect that is missing towards people elders, polie, politicians, aboriginals on and on.
Indo dreaming..."I don't think so, all it is going to do at the AFL is make people self conscious about booing anyone that does not have white skin in fear that they will be perceived as being racist.
To me thats the irony because now we will be looking at people and focussing on their race and skin colour and treating them differently based on skin colour or race.
To me thats a huge step backwards.
You shouldn't treat anybody different...AG's has been treated very different...the whole free kick BS..he's had 8 frees this year......so what is there to boo at???
the whole idea that because a 13 year old racially vilified AG.....she was not responsible for what she said....where did it come from , her parents?? Its still racism......
I read the Age this morning and see an editorial we should all be proud of......as Australians...not just a minority of racists who seek to denigrate another minority because of their culture or color....
Australia is getting a pounding O/s.....as a racist country....that does not believe in climate change...there only seems to shame unless we all fire up an STOP the excuses and lame dialogue trying to justify the indefensible.....
I feel for Goodes in the fact that , just like that stupid little 13 yr old girl with the shit mum , he's been caught up in a storm of media and opinion that isn't entirely of his making .
In the last two weeks I've seen people that passionately celebrated Nicky Winmars iconic defiance , go the full mongoloid at Goodes .
I think it would be tough to be now be where he has been his whole life ( no matter the success ) , basicly caught between His aboriginal ancestry and modern Australia . They say that people of mixed heritage suffer from the worst alienation . Because it comes from both sides .!
This is now getting out of hand . People say walk a mile in someone else's boots . Although Adam may have been born in SA , I believe he grew up in country Victoria ( Ballarat -western district ?!? ?? ) .
As far as I know only Brutus could have walked that mile , and as such I'm really interested to not only hear his views . BUT am very interested in when he may put pen to paper about his own journey , safe to say it would be colourful and many twists and turns , well travelled .
From an outsider prospective I see a man that has embraced commercial international culture and business .
C'mon Brute share some stories . !
Onya Southey...
I'm getting frustrated with the commentators saying Goodes crossed the line when he reacted against the crowd, inferring there's some moral duty to keep your mouth shut no matter what gets yelled at them. And make no mistake, racist epithets were yelled, the proof is coming out now - West Coast Eagles fans ejected, admission from the 13 y.o with the appalling Mum. Goodes' actions weren't spontaneous, he was racially abused.
And these outspoken commentators are complicit in the racism. They know horrible shit gets yelled but believe Goodes should take it on the chin. Fuck off with that!
Throw pretend spears if that's what it takes to draw attention to the matter, 'cos racism needs to be called out no matter where it comes from.
...and also the half caste argument is a furphy. If you're black you're black, and judged on that alone. Racists don't demand to see a birth certificate.
Fair point Southey … yes, it can be difficult handling your ancestry where it is from different lands and cultures but also can make you very balanced. It is, of course, an individual thing. For Goodsie, lets leave him alone and respect him for the way he feels and trust he comes back. He is a good player and should be respected for it. Looking forward to watching Inglis play (for Souths) this weekend - pure talent.
this is a good look at some of the facts around this. There has been a lot of the truth left out of some the arguments that people are putting forward.
http://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/the-project/extra/season-7/the-rewriti...
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kaiser][quote=mick-free wrote:kaiser wrote:I don't follow AFL so I am not intimately aware of the goings-on, but to draw parallels with the haka is incorrect IMO. The theatre of sport is two teams of combatants going at it, and the supporters of respective teams supporting theirs and deriding the other. There is a pretty clear distinction between those playing and those watching.
The haka is an aggressive or combative act from players to players - not players to spectators. From what I saw, when he did the routine and aimed it at the crowd, he was inviting the fight. No doubt it was in response to the shit he had already copped, but he made a clear physical challenge to the people in the stands. Obviously they can't come on the field and belt him, so they voice their opinion instead. It has definitely gone on too long, but you can't be surprised that the crowd would go him for it.
Don't pigeon hole the haka bro. You have that all wrong. It has a lot more meaning, just check this.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/entire-kiwi-school-performs-...
So drawing Parallels with the Haka is correct. The Aboriginal war dance is nowhere to be seen in a celebration in Australia sport. Love to see Pocock pick up a spear and throw it Goodes like-style this weekend for the bledisloe when the call comes out Ka tū te wanawana - Our dominance will triumph (again haha)
Shame Aussies don't support Goodes more, shame Aussies don't support Aboriginals more in bringing it.
From Goodes side he should be able to just get on with it.....whats that old saying as kids 'sticks and stones will break your bones but names will never hurt' . Best way is to play and play well. The fact that he can't must be torture.
I'm not buying into the whole racist card. I reckon there is a general lack of respect from people to people. From a kiwi living here there is an underbelly of respect that is missing towards people elders, polie, politicians, aboriginals on and on.
There's a lot of different hakas mate. The one used in the sporting arena is supposed to be a call to arms and designed to incite fear into the opponent. Threatening gestures and all that. Unfortunately the dissemination of the culture means that this is the only one that the majority are aware of enough to perform it
And, it's not about what the haka is - it's who it is aimed at. Provocation almost always will get a response. And so it goes...
being brought up in the western district in the 50's , adopted to a middle class white family...going to a High school where you were the only dark skinned person.....copped it from both sides as the blackfellas from the local community saw me as some kind a uppity blackfella.....I actually never realized it was racism.....just thought I was a really dislikable person....
it was only years later going to Hawaii when I was 18 ....there was such a thing....as racism...I bore the scars for a very long time and had major issues...which when I read and see todays racism......I still alternate between rage , forgiveness and ultimately education.
recently there was an incident with a 3 year old aboriginal girl dressing up as a princess fro the Movie frozen , when she was abused by a white mum and her daughter , in that she couldn't be a princess as she was black...the 3 yr old went home and tried to wash off the blackness.....the pain and , abuse of ones self esteem/worth is......beyond words.......emotion becomes a very dangerous reaction to racism....
To realize that you spent your youth in the 50's and 60's.......not having been considered human..leaves scars that can only be healed through forgiveness , understanding and education.
So Southey I cannot and will not go into personal stories in a forum such as this...but I do speak to kids and try even on these forums not to get angry......but try and at least get one person to reconsider their position and understand the pain and hurt that name calling can do.....
I do not subscribe to ," sticks and stones will break ya bones but names will never hurt you," physical pain is easy to deal with.......psychological trauma........ahhhhh.......
that's why I keep trying to get Udo to understand what he's saying and the consequences of what he says about altar boys..or trying deride AG for being sooky....you would not last 5 mins in his shoes.....or mine for that matter!!
This dude copped a lot of boos for turning on the crowd (coincidentally an indigenous player, but the crowd insulted his mum instead)
Speaking of the things you say in public having consequences, and not necessarily being aware of what you say may deeply affect some people psychologically, did Jeff Rowley ever get convicted in court of what he was accused of doing on this website and after he was being publicly assassinated relentlessly?
What ended up happening with that?
"So the act of calling out racism is a larger moral crime than perpetrating an act of racism?"
The above is Tim Southphommasane's rhetorical question to Alan Jones, Miranda Devine, Shane Warne, Andrew Bolt, and the legions who believe Goodes should cop the racism on the chin.
Can anyone, anyone, argue their way around that?
Goofy ,I asked the same question re Rowley ,June 20th in the Surf Hero thread and no replies.
My question isn't directed at Brutus, just anyone who would know. I was thinking about it the other day after I saw a pic of him at jaws in a mag
stunet wrote:"So the act of calling out racism is a larger moral crime than perpetrating an act of racism?"
The above is Tim Southphommasane's rhetorical question to Alan Jones, Miranda Devine, Shane Warne, Andrew Bolt, and the legions who believe Goodes should cop the racism on the chin.
Can anyone, anyone, argue their way around that?
no one can put up a logical argument against that but the argument against Goodes is far from logical and far from a fact based argument and so people will still come up with an argument against it.
something I learnt many years ago is that you cannot win an argument against an illogical person as they can come up with illogical counter arguments all day long.....
udo wrote:Goofy ,I asked the same question re Rowley ,June 20th in the Surf Hero thread and no replies.
as this is off topic.....but if you can explain your splitting an altar boy...I will explain what happened to ya mate Rowley?
stunet wrote:"So the act of calling out racism is a larger moral crime than perpetrating an act of racism?"
The above is Tim Southphommasane's rhetorical question to Alan Jones, Miranda Devine, Shane Warne, Andrew Bolt, and the legions who believe Goodes should cop the racism on the chin.
Can anyone, anyone, argue their way around that?
Because its not racism for gods sake Rita summed it up perfectly here http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/miss-judgement/
So calling someone an ape isn't racist? Nor is telling them to go back to the zoo? Cos they were the things he responded too.
"One thing I’ve learned about my adopted home is that its problem with racism is similar in many ways to America’s problem with guns: it is so endemic and culturally ingrained that its perpetrators and propagators can’t even see that it’s a problem."
Read this article ID: http://www.businessinsider.com.au/an-american-expat-explains-the-adam-goodes-controversy-and-australias-problem-with-racism-2015-7
And watch the Waleed Aly link posted by Pointy above. Rita, like many of her counterparts, has deliberatly overlooked crucial aspects of this issue. To sell papers? Create controversy? Who knows, but she is patently wrong.
I can't believe she actually typed "miserable self-loathing Leftists" and expects people to listen to her. Agenda, much?
For what little this is worth my brother in law is right wing, often acts like he's the only one on the planet, and he thinks it's racism.
To anyone who still believes this isn't race related, be wary of nailing your colours to the mast in public because this issue has EVERYTHING to do with race relations and Australia's past, and my observations show that this is slowly dawning on some people. In my social media network people are removing posts that expressed hastily conceived ideas. Kneejerk reactions. Same goes on Twitter.
This has the potential to be a touchstone issue in Australian history, think Rosa Parks on the bus or Muhammad Ali stripped of titles. Don't be on the wrong side of history. And if for whatever reason you still resolutely believe it isn't race related, be mindful of how your public comments may be perceived in a few years time.
When you had just turned 13 (12 years old plus a few days) did you know the meaning of racism, or would you have known that calling an Aboriginal person an ape was racist even if you knew what racism meant?
I don't think i knew what racism meant and although i definitely wouldn't have yelled abuse at even a footy player i would be thinking in my head that guy looks like an ape, and i sure wouldn't understand the racist connotations of it at that age.
Without knowing if that was just a one off yell of abuse its really hard to judge, I have to give her parents the benefit of the doubt that it was, but i wouldn't be surprised if wasn't, which in that case the parents are just as much to blame for not pulling her up and explaining about racism and that you can't yell that out at anyone especially a dark skinned person.
I don't think I originally commented on this thread because at the time i had very mixed feelings on it, yes it highly probable she really didn't know but yes technically its racism.
I also felt extremely uneasy and still do of a grown man pointing out a 13 year old girl in front of the whole of Australia and the embarrassment and pain that must have caused something she will always have to live with and be judged on its something that could have long term implications for her. (yes i know just like how the racist taunts of Adams past I'm sure have affected him, hence even more reason to not make a 13 year old girl the example)
To me and a large proposition of Australians a line was crossed that shouldn't have been, i think he would have been much better judgement to ignore it and singling out an adult from the crowd if he wanted to make an example of someone, that i would have no problem with and their would be no doubt and excuses from the Adult making the remark (even though many people don't realise the connotations of using ape, see OP as an example).
Anyway it was controversial, hence a real bad move to follow it up with the war dance spear throwing thing, right or wrong he was looking for a reaction and he got it.
Anyway even some of his friends/people who know him don't agree on this one http://www.news.com.au/national/mark-ricciuto-crowds-are-not-racist-but-... (or even Aboriginal Aussies as Sheep dog link showed on the other page)
abc-od wrote:I can't believe she actually typed "miserable self-loathing Leftists" and expects people to listen to her. Agenda, much?
Just like that "miserable self-loathing Leftist" website, Business Insider, that published the link above.
Stu. Calling a black man an ape may be racist ....or not. Unless you know the motives of the person and the context they said it in, then you cannot conclude racism.
It could have been willfull racism, or just an unfortunate coincidence by the girl.
Just because it's been perceived as racist doesn't make it so. I haven't walked a day in Adam goodes shoes and so I can't make judgement over his reaction.
What's very important in my opinion is that we draw attention to being sensitive when we jeer indigenous footy players. And at the same time avoid calling people racist based off little evidence.
Calling Australians racist isn't helpful. People get pissed off with this, and go into defense. Btw IM not saying goodsy did this. But the media has.
Goodsy should just apologise for calling the girl the " face of racism"...if he chooses to call her racist in public then he should first find out some facts about her. Is she actually racist?
Unfortunately goodsy has brought a lot of this upon himself. Man up. Apologise.
Brutus I agree with a lot of points you have made in this discussion.
brutus wrote:Racism is an ever-present undercurrent in the Australian national debate, but over the past few weeks it feels like it's been boiling over - in multiple directions. We've had the Reclaim Australia rallies openly professing their anti-Islamic xenophobia, we've seen Labor submit to the Coalition's policy to turn back desperate asylum seekers, we've seen union ads using anti-Chinese sentiment to advertise opposition to the FTA, we've sat through three nights of Kim on SBS's Go Back To Where You Came From, and we've had to listen to a whole lot of bigoted white people using their platform to excuse the racist booing of Adam Goodes, who's been driven from the football field by the controversy.
I strongly disagree with your suggestion that the union ads opposing the Chinese FTA is about racism. Defending Australian citizens rights to work on projects within Australia is not Anti Chinese people and many of those who have opposed the agreements also attended Anti Racism rallies to drown out the reclaim Australia groups you also mentioned.
Back on subject Brutus has touched on a few of his own personal stories I have not been on the receiving end of racism myself but as a kid played footy with quite a few Indigenous and Torres Strait Islander kids.
I can never forget one of my teammates being sent off the ground in tears after belting an opposing player who called him a black cunt. Where does such ugly racial abuse come from? The kids didn't just learn this behaviour.
Much like Brutus and my junior footy teammates Adam Goodes would have copped such abuse for the majority of his life. Even though he is now well off and highly successful a strong conviction of character has made it his duty to speak out against racism.
Whether he is half, quarter or full blooded is irrelevant it's not his European heritage that has been murdered, raped had their children taken and placed up for adoption, hasn't been recognised in the constitution and is continuously disadvantaged.
What is so bad about using your platform to speak out for disadvantaged people within our community.
Turning back asylum seekers has more to do with protecting australias interests. Ie import skilled workers as a priority. Brutus, ave you looked around, Australia imports thousands of migrants. So how does turning back the boats have anything to do with racism. Heartless yes, racist not.
happyasS wrote:Stu. Calling a black man an ape may be racist ....or not. Unless you know the motives of the person and the context they said it in, then you cannot conclude racism. It could have been willfull racism, or just an unfortunate coincidence by the girl.
Yeah, fair enough. Intent has to count for something, but where did she hear it from? It had to be parents/older friends/other fans, all people who would know its connotations, so the argument for exoneration only goes so far.
And the way the episode unfolded - if you've seen it - shows that Goodes didn't know it was a 13 y.o girl. He had his back to the crowd, spun around and pointed when he heard the jibe. There was no time for assessment wondering if this girl is racist or not. He heard a word that the vast majority of normal Australians know is racist, from an opposing fan, in a place where racial insults are often hurled. He then gave a stirring and profound press conference the next day, offering the olive branch to make amends.
What Goodes did with the metaphorical spear (not a real spear people!) is no different to the All Blacks doing the Haka. They mimic the slitting of throats amongst other things, however its a metaphor for what they're going to do the their opponents on the field.NO CHAMP HE DID IT TO SPECTATORS
rule303][quote=scottishsponger wrote:What Goodes did with the metaphorical spear (not a real spear people!) is no different to the All Blacks doing the Haka. They mimic the slitting of throats amongst other things, however its a metaphor for what they're going to do the their opponents on the field. NO CHAMP HE DID IT TO SPECTATORS
Explain this. So a spectator can hurl racist abuse and a player just has to cop it?
Is that what you're saying?
Stu. Perhaps your right. Im unconvinced but no doubt there are plenty of kids hurling abuse that they learn from their parents. Im learning the hard way, just heard my 5 year old say fuck. He heard me say it a few days ago. Kids are sponges.
I guess where I'm substantially on the fence is his accusation of racism after the match. He did rightly say she was innocent as a 13 year old....he said she needed educating. So is she racist or just dumb to the undertones of racial sensitives.
Even the parents emplore goodes to keep playing....so im on the fence wether they are even racist....could itbe that she simply made a culturally insensitive remark. The follow slanders about going back to the zoo are far more likely to be racist driven given the context already existed in the media when the remarks were made. Whoever made those coomments should have their season pass revoked.
happyasS wrote:Goodsy should just apologise for calling the girl the " face of racism"...if he chooses to call her racist in public then he should first find out some facts about her. Is she actually racist?
Unfortunately goodsy has brought a lot of this upon himself. Man up. Apologise.
Are you deliberately mis-quoting what AG said/did or are you just ignorant of the facts? There are numerous "facts" based web links that address this very issue and I suggest you properly inform yourself of the "facts" before you precede further.
As to your last comment about refugees, Yes its heartless but there is also a racist element to Australia's negative attitude towards these refugees who are legally seeking refuge. Its all linked to the demonisation of these people and the half-veiled links to terrorism and that's got to do with race .... all done in the name of political advantage of course.
IMO these issues emerge when you have a vacuum of political leadership (since Howard) .... Australia in the past took a stand on apartheid, think Whitlam and land rights, Fraser's true liberalism after Vietnam and beyond until his death, Hawke/Keating's support of Marbo, Keating's Redfern Speech and Rudd's Sorry Speech in Parliament. Where in the fuck is Abbott? He is missing because to show true leadership here and speak up meaningfully in support of AG would be to act against his ultra conservative mates (Pell, Bolt, Jones, Murdoch).
Floyd. I've ead it. He said she innocent as a 13 year old but he still said it. Is she and her family racist or not. Do you know? What does he know about them ? He went too far..
As to immigration. Care to explain why Australia allows arrivals by plane? Plenty of Chinese in australia. Doesn't bother me not does it seem to bother t Australian govt.
Floyd. I did accidentally misquote. But he still refered to her as the face of racism. Same meaning as far I'm concerned. If it was said to me I would be upset. But then I don't walk around calling people apes.
Floyd. I did accidentally misquote. But he still refered to her as the face of racism. Same meaning as far I'm concerned. If it was said to me I would be upset. But then I don't walk around calling people apes.
No votes in planes; already addressed this issue many times. Rich foreigners buying their visas with property investments, tourists over staying visas, 457 visa provisions and its wholesale abuse, students getting uni degrees here and being eligible for citizenship .... it goes on and on but IMO the only borders we protect are the sea ones coz there are good votes to be had there appealing to the lowest common denominator in our community.
About this 13 year old girl stuff .... have you and others felt this way about AG since last year? Really? I doubt that very much, in fact I think that would be complete bullshit.
So where has it come from to re-emerge now? in a period immediately preceding vital community based discussions and forums on rewording the constitution to recognise our Indigenous nations. I'll tell you where. Its coming from people like Andrew Bolt whose poor form on Indigenous matters should be universally known. So parroting off about how AG should "just man up" and "apologise" is playing right into the hands of right wing conservatives like Bolt, a tabloid hate-sayer.
Floyd. About the foreigners, that's my.point your making. Immigration is a business transaction ,skills, money. Stopping boats is not about racism. The govt doesn't want poor uneducated people coming here. Planes can be controlled easily , boats not so easy.
'Planes can be controlled easily,' evidently not according to statistics
happyasS wrote:Floyd. About the foreigners, that's my.point your making. Immigration is a business transaction ,skills, money. Stopping boats is not about racism. The govt doesn't want poor uneducated people coming here. Planes can be controlled easily , boats not so easy.
the govt doesn't want poor uneducated people coming here ....how many boats of refugees are anglo-saxon origin..None.
The term refugee....any idea of what refugee is ???
Refugee and immigration are 2 seperate issues......
c'mon
this morning Andrew Bolte comes out with the ol stolen Generation story and that it s a MYTH......fabricated.......
From what I am reading in the Age...and other forums ....there has been outrage at the racism dished up by the right wingers...even James Packer.......but some of our bogan , Aussie pride factions , continue the hate ....
I am hopeful and proud to see that this might become a moment in Australias History ...where there was change for the betterment of all Australians....a Nicky Winmar / Adam Gilbert moment.....
and Big Tony our PM...scared to put offside his media mates Jones/Bolt/Price......
OK so anyone out there want to take on the Stolen Generation Myth.....??
"On the day when crime puts on the apparel of innocence, through a curious reversal peculiar to our age, it is innocence that is called to justify itself’.
A. Camus
Andrew Bolt has lost any small bit of credibility he had with that garbage!
hey brutus,
It seems it is going to be bigger than the AG issue ultimately because I think its part of the conservative agenda or their "battle of ideas", you know, attempting to rewrite history to suit their personal and political sensitivities.
I'm also hoping it will be a watershed moment when things improve for our Aboriginal communities but I'm also mindful of the hurt and bitterness that will be stirred up given the lack of real political leadership. I guess its the same as it has ever been, a grass roots movement for change.
Trying to be positive this morning so I'll not start on what I really think about Bolt or I might explode into rage.
a player gets called an ape.....by a 13 yr old girl, youre fucking joking, an ape -what the fuck is this sook player going on about.