Vaccinate or not

Alfred, that was a great response - I like it!

indo-dreaming, cool name! I always dream about going back to Lakey Peak one day.

But I have mixed feelings about what you wrote.

I disagree in the sense that I think the hard or natural sciences often present very clear distinctions between the most recently accepted theories versus ideas no longer considered as valid; they can be very black-and-white.

Here, something is confidently accepted as the current state of knowledge based solely on the strength of its argument and evidence supporting it. This is, after all, the crux of the scientific method. Nothing else should lend credence to something being accepted as contemporary scientific knowledge.

In the natural sciences, appeals to authority or to consensus are logical fallacies! Unfortunately, however, we see these fallacies masquerading as science and as valid forms of knowledge acquisition all around us every day.

However, I agree with you when it comes to the soft or social sciences. These fields are much more nuanced, existing in a large grey area of uncertainty, speculation and conjecture. Here, the authority of the speaker and the level of consensus can sometimes carry weight.

Good post Chelea L. Agree on all points

AndyM wrote:

“Mindlessly accepting and not questioning and testing science”

Jeez you guys talk shit.
Do you think I’m not aware of how it works?

Then why do you belittle us who have legitimate scepticism with evidence that would provoke further investigation. Like I’ve said before I’m not anti vax but I am sceptical of vaccine schedules for children and infants. Richard Cheese’ first article was pretty hyperbole free I thought. It layed out some evidence that both your self and hiccups where badgering Burleigh to present and instead of having an inquisitive mind, you wrote it off.

So what was that about shit talking and science and ………blah blah blah.

“ Indo. Hi fella , hope ya well .It’s not round at all. It’s spherical.”

That made me laugh out loud AW.
I’m well thanks, not much surfing lately. Making hay. Hope you’re getting a few.

Chelsea L wrote:

Alfred, that was a great response - I like it!

indo-dreaming, cool name! I always dream about going back to Lakey Peak one day.

But I have mixed feelings about what you wrote.

I disagree in the sense that I think the hard or natural sciences often present very clear distinctions between the most recently accepted theories versus ideas no longer considered as valid; they can be very black-and-white.

Here, something is confidently accepted as the current state of knowledge based solely on the strength of its argument and evidence supporting it. This is, after all, the crux of the scientific method. Nothing else should lend credence to something being accepted as contemporary scientific knowledge.

In the natural sciences, appeals to authority or to consensus are logical fallacies! Unfortunately, however, we see these fallacies masquerading as science and as valid forms of knowledge acquisition all around us every day.

However, I agree with you when it comes to the soft or social sciences. These fields are much more nuanced, existing in a large grey area of uncertainty, speculation and conjecture. Here, the authority of the speaker and the level of consensus can sometimes carry weight.

Chelsea L.

Thanks you for your response, your style, words and sentence arrangements sound very robotic. Are you a Bot, or are you generated by someone who is using AI ?

Alas. Well, you state you have mixed feelings about what I wrote. That’s fine , your opinion.

So, Do you have any solitary feelings about what I wrote ?

Science is not something we can describe in detail, it encompasses so many elements of life and of most things we do.
You could initially start a conversation . What is Science and how do you define what’s not science?
Primary knowledge, well It has to be, child birth , developmental biology, starting with the brain, that develops a skill set, ( your trained education) you apply those skills to a processes and so on to a specific field.
I can’t imagine how you’d ever fully describe fields of science.
Some folk would argue that a particular field is not scientific and others would disagree.
So it takes us back to the null hypothesis again. AW

soggydog wrote:

“ Indo. Hi fella , hope ya well .It’s not round at all. It’s spherical.”

That made me laugh out loud AW.
I’m well thanks, not much surfing lately. Making hay. Hope you’re getting a few.

Soggy dog.

As you would be aware, a sphere is not necessarily round.
In fact , Earths shape is described as spheroid when I studied geology at night school.
Earths shape also changes through time , it’s not a ball and you won’t fall off it, ever.
I’m going nuts. Hence all my mouth diarrhoea and dialogue.
Looks like a wave in a few days. AW

AndyM wrote:

“Mindlessly accepting and not questioning and testing science”

Jeez you guys talk shit.
Do you think I’m not aware of how it works?

Yes, you are not aware…… at all

Current daily cost of 2024 Covid wave world exclusive to VoN
Crew can thank Fed/Vic Health +Recent Hospital Reviews
tbb promised to salute all Govts sharing Civic Data (Well done!)
No point sharing data if we just sit and stare at it...
tbb dug deep & realized this is now doable > happy to oblige!
Why do this...because Oz is only nation running this complete level of Covid Care.
Please share if a data group is missing but equally cut tbb some slack, as this is a world first.
Likewise feel free to add what that might be to the total & simply divide by 90/days

Sept > Dec 'Vic' Wave (Small-Med) (90 Days) Rising to New Years Peak
DATA (Not costed but tbb stresses this rare multi level Fed / State access don't come cheap!)
tbb is laying out a ward chart for crew to likewise access / chart their own state Data
Vax ...:75,900 x ...........$170 =.........$12,903,000
[+]test71,247 x ................$5 =...............$356,235 (Total of AV / AC / Staff)
[+]A/C ..4,492 x .......$19.67=..................$88,357 ($19.67 > 1st Jan $11.55 / 7 day [+] supplement)
[+]Hos:16,000x..................$5 =..................$80,000 (More likely PCR [+]...Base RAT cost!)
GP/av: 50,256 x .....$1,410 =........$70,860,960 rising 34% mth + 42% mth + (50%) Dec (Rise Approx)
Hosp : 15,792 x $120,504 =$1,902,999,168
ICU....:.........707 x $264,533 =....$187,024,831
Lng C: 14,249 x ...$11,090 =....$158,025,846 (Long Covid is set at [+] 20% Presenting for Treatment)
Death: ......325 x ...$35,000 =.......$11,375,000 (Sept-Mid Oct average > Vic censored rising Nov-Dec)

(90 Days)......................................= $2,343,713,397
2024 Vic Xmas Wave Cost =...... $26,041,259 / Day
Pandemic is still bossing our World

Very interesting well worked US Chart shares yer odds of being infected...NYE
Just scroll down to US Covid
https://aus.social/@DenisCOVIDinfoguy
States there is more transmission right now...than for more than during 73.3% of Pandemic.
Crowd # 5 = 12.3% > 10 = 23% > 20 = 48% > 50 = 73% > 100 = 92.7% > 300 = 97%
Example : Oz - o/s [+] % Tests Re-Open May 2022 = 15%[+] > 2023 = 35%[+] > 2024 45%[+]
Half with 'Symptoms' who exit a Plane will test [+] but most are asymptomatic mRNA spreaders
Very same reason tbb keeps sharing the data...it's no more or less the same...Can't wish it away!
WHO : We're Still in Covid Pandemic...as always...
(Govts only cancelled Ongoing Emergency > see Vic Alert Now! Iso / Mask Mandates > Hospitals etc...
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/australians-have-been-living-with-co...

DATA credits
Standard Price : Test $5 / 1x Booster $170 / GP $110 + AV $1,300 + (Masks / PPE / PCR are subsidized)
Please Note Oz Govt has Future Fund Shares in Moderna / Pfizer > (Modest Profit rebate from Shares)
That's the very reason tbb can access Monthly Vax / AV Data...(AV = 3-5% of Vic Outbreak)
Govt also receive 50% Windfall as Executor / Power of Attorney ...many don't have a Will.

Wastewater Data was not sourced for this exercise...but likewise incurs (Extra) Labour / Data cost!
Also extra is ( Co-morb / Virus Treatment = 30% less than Standard Covid Patient...see review for %)
As tbb is merely introducing a first time one off Chart (Basic Demo Copy format)...Fair Enough!
Yes! That's the point of VoN + tbb sharing...to enable Aussies to own the data & Check Health Crisis.
As in a Daily / Covid Cost to Vic Health =10% + Review states it seldom changes.(Chart total =10%)
Just exampling that current [ Vic Active Alert ] wave represents as Neutral / Average Health Costing

https://www.health.vic.gov.au/infectious-diseases/victorian-covid-19-sur...
https://www.health.gov.au/topics/covid-19/reporting
https://www.health.gov.au/resources/collections/covid-19-outbreaks-in-au...
https://www.health.gov.au/topics/aged-care/managing-covid-19/government-...
https://www.health.gov.au/resources/collections/covid-19-vaccination-rol...
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2024/221/9/hospital-costs-covid-19-post-c...).
https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/166bd325-fc1f-4692-be56-f1232945b640/ai...

Bonus : Pacific Japan / Malaysia / NZ + Many Oz States are rising
Tip : Malaysia is a good indicator of when & how Oz (Vic) Covid Waves flow.
Hospital eg: 6th Oct 353 > 9th Nov 567 > Drops > 16th Nov 504 (False hope) > 14th Dec 730 (Rising)
https://www.facebook.com/informationcovid19/photos_by
All see that Rise then fall then here it comes again...same as Vic (Check Hospital Data)
Seems like we gotta run out the wave to New Year...guessing crew figured as much!
There's more about this wave but for some reason this Chart format presented a green light...Ok!
Happy to share such a rare exclusive with VoN.

Alfred, my response was to indo-dreaming. I like what you wrote!

I'm not a bot. I'm a long way down the autism spectrum. I spend too long refining what I write. Writing helps me to express myself. I have trouble interacting with people. Surfing helps me the most! It feels like there is nothing wrong with me anymore after I come in from the ocean.

Arthur Schopenhauer: All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Scientism: The belief that science and the scientific method is the only way to render truth about the world and reality. While the term was defined originally to mean "methods and attitudes typical of or attributed to natural scientists", some scholars, as well as political and religious leaders, have also adopted it as a pejorative term with the meaning "an exaggerated trust in the efficacy of the methods of science applied to all areas of investigation "

Occams Razor: Occam’s Razor is the idea that more straightforward explanations are, in general, better. That is if you have two possible theories that fit all available evidence, the best theory is the one with fewer moving parts.

Frantz Fanon: Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with new evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.

Erethism, also known as erethismus mercurialis, mad hatter disease, or mad hatter syndrome, is a neurological disorder which affects the whole central nervous system, as well as a symptom complex, derived from mercury poisoning.

https://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html

https://slaynews.com/news/major-study-unvaccinated-healthiest-people-pla...

I like to think I have an open mind but have a lot of respect for the qualified experts working in their chosen fields.
The problem I have is when people of very limited education and intelligence jump on the net and skim over a very complex issue and then actually think they know more about it than those who have spent their entire lives studying it.
They think they are doing their own research, when in reality they are just reading crap written by unqualified bloggers making a living from offering an alternate opinion.
It seems like the people who dominate online forums and push anti science views are usually clueless morons with big egos, no bullshit meter and mental problems.
The hard-working professors, scientists, academics etc. don't waste their time reading the rantings of idiots online.

Couldn’t agree more old dog.
Scepticism is all well and good, but when it’s coupled with a complete inability to think critically and source reputable information, we spiral down into a shit show.
Yep, the loudest people are the confused, the narcissists, the nihilists and the plain basic.

AndyM wrote:

Couldn’t agree more old dog.
Scepticism is all well and good, but when it’s coupled with a complete inability to think critically and source reputable information, we spiral down into a shit show.
Yep, the loudest people are the confused, the narcissists, the nihilists and the plain basic.

I would argue the you and old-dog are the two basic ones.

You keep saying “think critically” yet you don’t the the ability to do this yourself.

And reputable information? Where do we find this? Is it in documents that get suppressed for our lifetime?

Hey burls, you should go and get an IQ test, but I wouldn't worry too much, I'm pretty sure the results would come back negative. ;)
Merry Xmas mate, love your work.

Dr. Richard Horton, Editor-in-Chief of the Lancet: The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.

old-dog wrote:

Hey burls, you should go and get an IQ test, but I wouldn't worry too much, I'm pretty sure the results would come back negative. ;)
Merry Xmas mate, love your work.

After the covid shenanigans you’d have to have your head firmly wedged up your arse not to question what’s prescribed by the “experts”.
The “egg spurts” love guys like you old-dog. Compliant, ignorant and willing. Fly that flag brother fly it high!

old-dog wrote:

Hey burls, you should go and get an IQ test, but I wouldn't worry too much, I'm pretty sure the results would come back negative. ;)
Merry Xmas mate, love your work.

Gold!

@ soggylog, merry xmas. I don't really give a shit, I got the jab, never had covid. Plenty of people questioning and raking over the coals since covid, yours and my opinions mean fuck all anyway. Life goes on.

soggydog wrote:

old-dog wrote:

Hey burls, you should go and get an IQ test, but I wouldn't worry too much, I'm pretty sure the results would come back negative. ;)
Merry Xmas mate, love your work.

After the covid shenanigans you’d have to have your head firmly wedged up your arse not to question what’s prescribed by the “experts”.
The “egg spurts” love guys like you old-dog. Compliant, ignorant and willing. Fly that flag brother fly it high!

Useful Idiots is the term commonly used for people like Old-Dog, Roadkill and AndyM

Useful idiots is also used for LBTQ+ people that protest for GAZA to be free, not understanding if they were in GAZA they would be slaughtered.

burleigh wrote:

soggydog wrote:

old-dog wrote:

Hey burls, you should go and get an IQ test, but I wouldn't worry too much, I'm pretty sure the results would come back negative. ;)
Merry Xmas mate, love your work.

After the covid shenanigans you’d have to have your head firmly wedged up your arse not to question what’s prescribed by the “experts”.
The “egg spurts” love guys like you old-dog. Compliant, ignorant and willing. Fly that flag brother fly it high!

Useful Idiots is the term commonly used for people like Old-Dog, Roadkill and AndyM

Useful idiots is also used for LBTQ+ people that protest for GAZA to be free, not understanding if they were in GAZA they would be slaughtered.

Old-dog was giving you a compliment, burl’s.

You should be thanking him.

I dare say we’ll find common ground on this Burls.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/dec/21/a-pill-for-every-...

Richard Cheese wrote:

Dr. Richard Horton, Editor-in-Chief of the Lancet: The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.

Great post here and also above @Richardcleese.
yep...there's lots of ways to tweak results, small sample sizes being just one of them.
Also as Burleigh mentioned above....what science was it that we were privvy to? We were told to trust the experts...the ones employed by the pharmaceutical companies (the scientiests) that those in political power were happy to be dictated to bythem as well.
Its mindblowing the audacity of those preaching about listening to the experts (still...even after they got their way with mass vaccine rollouts) yet they can't actually pinpoint who the experts were and what information they had that was out in the open for all to see.
As Burleigh said. It was either supressed, or what was released was heavily redacted. Trust the experts. ha!!

The hardest thing for most people is to put themselves at a moment in time many years ago…with the available knowledge and faced with what was possibly a mass casualty/death event unlike anything seen before. And accept that best intentions were used in decision making.

Yep, lots has now been exposed as wrong and so much more knowledge has been gained and we know some things were withheld and it wasn’t as bad as it could have been…And yes, the same critical instagram experts that knew nothing then still know nothing now.

Roadkill wrote:

The hardest thing for most people is to put themselves at a moment in time many years ago…with the available knowledge and faced with what was possibly a mass casualty/death event unlike anything seen before. And accept that best intentions were used in decision making.

Yep, lots has now been exposed as wrong and so much more knowledge has been gained and we know some things were withheld and it wasn’t as bad as it could have been…And yes, the same critical instagram experts that knew nothing then still know nothing now.

We were NEVER faced with that. The fact you still believe that is fucking insane.

Chelsea L wrote:

Alfred, my response was to indo-dreaming. I like what you wrote!

I'm not a bot. I'm a long way down the autism spectrum. I spend too long refining what I write. Writing helps me to express myself. I have trouble interacting with people. Surfing helps me the most! It feels like there is nothing wrong with me anymore after I come in from the ocean.

Chelsea L. Hi , hope ya kicking goals, not gaols.

Two things I love also, written expression and surfing.

When you come in from the ocean, you know it’s the endorphins, you never own them, they are borrowed.
Love to chat with you about autism at some time in the future.

All the best. AW

Logical fallacies are arguments that use erroneous logic, or incorrect reasoning in persuading an opponent. There are numerous logical fallacies, ranging from Ad Hominem to the Straw Man argument. Logical fallacies can either be formal or informal fallacies, which in turn have their own sub-categories based on manipulation, emotion, distraction, ambiguity, presumption, carelessness, or ignorance.

John 8:32 - …and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Gloria Steinem: The truth will set you free.. but first it will piss you off.

Sir Isaac Newton, Our Ordination: About the times of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamour and opposition.

Revelation 18:23 - …and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.

Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed by lack of knowledge.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn: We know that they are lying, They know that they are lying, They even know that we know they are lying. We also know that they know we know they are lying. But they are still lying. In our country, the lie has become not just moral category, but the pillar industry of this country.

Dr W.B. Clark: Cancer was practically unknown until compulsory vaccination with cowpox vaccine began to be introduced. I have had to deal with at least two hundred cases of cancer, and I never saw a case of cancer in an unvaccinated person.

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

https://jennifer9064.wixsite.com/vaccinecommonsense/single-post/2015/08/...

View this post on Instagram

Simple. They rely on useful idiots like oldflog to do their work for them

I know what you mean about logical fallacies.
One of my favourite logical fallacies is the one where, despite the fact that they have saved maybe 150 million lives over the last 50 years (not even including smallpox), we should comprehensively reject all vaccinations because we’ve had some (at times not insignificant) issues with them in the past.
Makes sense to me.
Just out of interest most of those saved have been children under five, and around two-thirds children under one year old.
Save the children eh Burls?
https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2024/05/14/154-million-lives...

AndyM wrote:

I know what you mean about logical fallacies.
One of my favourite logical fallacies is the one where, despite the fact that they have saved maybe 150 million lives over the last 50 years (not even including smallpox), we should comprehensively reject all vaccinations because we’ve had some (at times not insignificant) issues with them in the past.
Makes sense to me.
Just out of interest most of those saved have been children under five, and around two-thirds children under one year old.
Save the children eh Burls?
https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2024/05/14/154-million-lives...

Here’s another useful idiot doing the dirty work for big pharma/governments to make billions each year.
Welcome to the UI club.

Ah Burls, nothing like justifying a whole lot of deaths just to back up your flaccid ideology.
“Dead kids everywhere? Nah she’ll be right mate it’s just a plot by big Pharma.”

AndyM wrote:

Ah Burls, nothing like justifying a whole lot of deaths just to back up your flaccid ideology.

You have very flawed logic AndyM. What happened to the kids in London?

You’re retarded.
So if you wear a seatbelt and don’t get in an accident it’s a bad thing?
Fuck me.

@ burls, I got the jab like 90% of the population, and like everyone I know it was my choice, with no regrets, and is long forgotten, but unlike you I have never told anyone else what they should do.
It is you doing all the work for the anti vax cult pal.
If you were one of the millions of people who died of covid you probably wouldn't be on here preaching your religion.

AndyM wrote:

You’re retarded.
So if you wear a seatbelt and don’t get in an accident it’s a bad thing?
Fuck me.

Your seatbelt is made from sticky tape. But you’ve been told it will keep you safe so you wear it. And tell everyone how many lives it’s saved everyday.

Useful idiot booklet 101

old-dog wrote:

@ burls, I got the jab like 90% of the population, and like everyone I know it was my choice, with no regrets, and is long forgotten, but unlike you I have never told anyone else what they should do.
It is you doing all the work for the anti vax cult pal.
If you were one of the millions of people who died of covid you probably wouldn't be on here preaching your religion.

Millions of people who died of Covid? Again you’re an absolute dipshit if you believe this to be true.

Did deaths rise above average during covid years?

@ burls So you still sticking to- the whole thing was a hoax, a little sniffle, and a worldwide conspiracy so the evil Govt. could lock us down and control us forever angle.
Millions died from the experimental immune destroying death jab, but no one died from covid?
Get back in your rabbit hole.

old-dog wrote:

@ burls So you still sticking to- the whole thing was a hoax, a little sniffle, and a worldwide conspiracy so the evil Govt. could lock us down and control us forever angle.
Millions died from the experimental immune destroying death jab, but no one died from covid?
Get back in your rabbit hole.

Look after yourself oldflog. Stay away from the hungry jacks and go for a run. You'll be amazed at what your body can achieve without the need for an experimental jab for a runny nose.

old-dog wrote:

@ burls, I got the jab like 90% of the population, and like everyone I know it was my choice, with no regrets, and is long forgotten, but unlike you I have never told anyone else what they should do.
It is you doing all the work for the anti vax cult pal.
If you were one of the millions of people who died of covid you probably wouldn't be on here preaching your religion.

Every time i ring my mum, i inevitably and uneasily ask how my nephew is doing. And each time he's not improved and still struggling through life.
Was it the vaccine? Unconfirmed. The old correllation is not causation argument has to be considered. But the timing...ya know...
But i did try to warn my sister to not give it to him, but like most people, she was just trying to do the right thing and get on with life as there was little option for most people. I wish i'd been more persuasive now.
So keep in mind @olddog there are people living through the nightmare of vaccine injuries post covid. It's not all roses.
And for the record AndyM, personally, i'm not anti vax. I'm anti forced untrialled vaccination. Big difference.

btw @olddog, i'm not having a go. I enjoy the sparring and banter between you and Burlz. Just a gentle reminder that there's 2 sides to the coin to keep in mind. Have a great Christmas mate.

Hi southern, have a great Xmas mate, hope you get some good waves over there in Gods country.

Oldflog couldn’t care less about people with vaccine injuries from a vaccine they 100% did not need.

When it happens again oldflog will be the first to line up and get injected even after the real lies told during covid by governments and big pharmaceutical companies.

He’s a useful idiot for governments and pharma.
They love morons like him and AndyM.

Cheers @olddog.
Haha. I'll leave ya's to it @burleigh.
Merry Christmas to you too mate. Hope it's a happy festive season for you and your family.

@southernraw
"And for the record AndyM, personally, i'm not anti vax. I'm anti forced untrialled vaccination."

I'm with you to an extent mate regarding the "forced" part, the level of government coercion was pretty uncomfortable and concerning.
In hindsight maybe they should have just targeted the old and infirm, but you know what they say about hindsight.
It's definitely worth a deep conversation (and I expect in some circles it's still going on) about how much power governments should have in times of crisis and what checks and balances should be in place for these.
It's probably also worth revisiting any discussions about federalism and the power of the states vs. the power of federal government.

I think I disagree with you regarding the "untrialled" bit though - from what I can work out, mRNA technology has been around for 60+ years and the clinical trials for COVID-19 vaccines have involved tens of thousands of people before the vaccines received full approval.
I agree that the vaccination has been linked to cases of myocarditis and pericarditis but then again so has Covid itself.
In any case, the benefits of the vaccine/s almost certainly far outweigh any side-effects and issues, keeping in mind that the best part of 7 million people died from Covid.

Anyway, thanks for the chat and a Merry Christmas to you.

Good post @AndyM and yeah, i'll happily meet in the middle on the 'untrialled' part of the rollout.
Like you're eluding to it was all done on the fly....some agencies were left completely flat footed and some were in a dominant position and just rolled with it.
It's good to see the discussion continue and not be forgotten so that lessons can be learned from all fronts. I'm definitely not proud of some of the moments i had during those 3 years....but it is what it is.
Cheers Andy and Merry Christmas to you too mate.

And Burls I really am pretty shocked that you're happy to ignore the deaths of so many kids just to stick to your nihilistic ideology - you seem devoid of moral or political principles.

AndyM wrote:

In any case, the benefits of the vaccine/s almost certainly far outweigh any side-effects and issues, keeping in mind that the best part of 7 million people died from Covid.

With Covid not from Covid. There is a big difference you idiot.

burleigh wrote:

AndyM wrote:

In any case, the benefits of the vaccine/s almost certainly far outweigh any side-effects and issues, keeping in mind that the best part of 7 million people died from Covid.

With Covid not from Covid. There is a big difference you idiot.

I was going to add that 'little' detail as a p.s but knew i could count on you for that one @burleigh haha

Ok, data shows that COVID-19 was the sole cause of only about 5% of listed COVID-19 deaths.
When doctors determine that COVID-19 is not the sole cause of death, they record other causes on the death certificate.
In the U.S., at least 90% of such recorded deaths had COVID-19 as the underlying cause of death rather than a contributing cause.
Note the word underlying.
Maybe a bit like if you have a stroke and die from a related heart attack, the underlying cause is still the stroke.
So in other words, you most likely wouldn't have died without Covid and you most likely wouldn't have died without the stroke.
Agree?

Anyway we can squabble about Covid but how do you just wave away the easily preventable deaths of infants when it doesn't suit your ideology?
How do you ignore how incredibly effective vaccines have been?