On Slater's new wavepool
This morning marked another 'break the internet' moment and this time it was surfer's wielding the clubs. As everyone now knows, Kelly Slater unveiled his new wave pool and it's orders of magnitude better than anything yet seen. Though the clip only showed a few waves those waves had a clean lip line, impressive length, but best of all they were hollow. Slater jagged two legit barrels on one wave.
Equally as impressive as the wave quality is how Slater had kept it under wraps till now: no teaser clips, no cryptic messages, no exclusive scoops from the media. If you've been wondering why Kelly always grins like a Cheshire cat, well, know you know.
The wave is reportedly in Califonia's Central Valley, near Fresno. The production company who filmed the clip, Aether Films, are from San Francisco.
It appears the Kelly Slater Wave Company (KSWC) have rejigged their design to resemble that of Wavegarden's. Gone is the circular pool and in its place a lagoon with unidirectional wave breaking along a sculpted embankment. The quality of the wave, however, matches that of the first gen waves envisioned by KSWC. If you're going to go to all the trouble and expense of excavating large areas of land, designing hulls, and building propulsion units then these are the sort of waves surfers want to see.
The world's first working Wavegarden was built in Snowdonia, Wales, a great distance from any surfing community. The site was chosen as it sits in a tax exclusion zone. After seeing the KSWC wave and making comparisons, Wavegarden Snowdonia is destined to run at half strength for non-surfers as a summertime play park.
Unless Wavegarden markedly improve their technology they run the risk of being marginalised by the surfing community. Matt Warshaw summed up the state of play succinctly: “Wavegarden just went from cutting edge to Betamax.” Wavegarden have the benefit of a number of cashed up licensees around the world and they can always market their wavepools to another demographic – i.e non surfers.
The other player in this techno triumvirate is Greg Webber of Webber Wavepools. From the very beginning Webber said he wouldn't accept a wave that didn't barrel - accommodating non surfers is not part of his plan. As of this morning Webber wouldn't comment on Slater's wave.
Muddying the waters is the fact that Slater and Webber have been collaborating on surfboards together. Slater is licensing some of Greg's models for his new board company, Slater Designs. He even rode one of Greg's boards at the Pipe Masters just two days ago.
Speaking of the World Surf League: Terry Hardy is a Director of KSWC and he also formed ZoSea which now run the WSL. Kelly Slater once called the wave pool project his “totally selfish motivation”, yet the commercial application is crystal clear. First stop the 2017 Championship Tour – depending on how quick they can dig – and then take aim at the golden goose, the Olympics. And though wave pools are frightfully expensive to design, patent, and build, the KSWC have close ties to Dirk Ziff, the billionaire benefactor of pro surfing. With a bit more capital his investment just may see a return.
In 2011 I wrote an article titled 'Kelly Slater almost sunk in wave pool wrangle,' in which I noted Kelly Slater didn't have the patents he claimed he did. Four years later, and with a new wave pool design – and the requisite patents one would presume – Kelly Slater appears ready to ride again.
Comments
Where is said wave pool you think?
Just updated article: The wave is reportedly in Califonia's Central Valley, near Fresno. The production company who filmed the clip, Aether Films, are from San Francisco.
That would be the same Central Valley currently undergoing the worst drought in its history.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/28/california-central-valley...
Tucked away in the Caroliner somewhere hence the secrecy, gloves off your go Mr Webber!
Surfing at the Olympics, nooooooo!
Its time to stop pretending that raising the profile of surfing within the general population is a good thing. Its a only a good thing if you are trying to make a dollar.
I am not saying that this article condones olympic surfing, but I would be interested to hear how having surfing at the Olympics could be of benefit to the average recreational (i.e. 99%) surfer.
Things were so much better when we were social outcasts.
Will this pay off some of his debt that he owes surfing Free?
@coops70
There is an informative series called, "genius" that outlines the progress of various important inventions and the competitors that implemented them. Edison vs. Tesla, Wright Bros vs. Glenn Curtis and Jobs vs. Gates for example.
The competition in the second is worth learning from as it seemed to hold up the progression of Aviation for ten years by an obstinate Wright. He refused to cooperate with Glen Curtis (who was an accomplished marine aviator and engine designer) after many approaches by him. Eventually, the US government stepped in took control of the patents and gave them each 1% of any aircraft built. (WW1)
The aerospace firm Curtis -Wright still exists (http://www.curtisswright.com/company/history/)
My point? Sometimes commercial competition can hinder not help progress when sensible cooperation can be much more efficient. Especially when there are complementary skills and experience involved. But sometimes it just doesn't happen that way?
But it is encouraging to see Surf Central attempt to provide a platform where information is distributed and that perhaps can promote cooperation.
I hope I live long enough to see it all happen with waves on demand available in a feel like, look like and be like a natural location in easily accessible natural circumstances.
Kelly Slater retirement announcement:
"yeah, I'm over surfin' in shit conditions, so I'm heading off to perfect riding the wave we created ... I'm not gunna miss the crowds"
About a year and a bit later:
"yeah, the whole ocean surfing thing is not where it's at anymore. We can now compete on the same wave so it really is the best surfer who wins, no ocean lulls, no luck or chance - I really had no choice but set up this new surfing world tour and make it a ratings based system like golf, so the best surfer over the longest period of time is the number one in the world."
sort of like what Kerry Packer did with his one day cricket back whenever when?
Similar to the NRL and its big business model.
That's what business and aging sporting professionals do and will keep doing.
As longs as the sponsors and hence punters pay there will always be "feasts and games" for entertainment.
That's life - not right or wrong just the way it's always been and always will be.
Spectator sports are not my favorite.
I know it's not cool on these pages to like the idea of wave pools but this is great. I think this is surfing's equivalent to skiing groomers inbounds. I'm psyched. At the moment because of injury and life circumstances I'm not in the water at all these days. This kind of thing will be perfect for things change again. Tune up for a day or two in a pool and then paddle out with a bit of condition and importantly timing.
Just like hitting the groomers for a day at the start of the season before heading into the side or backcountry.
Also fun as hell for the crappy spring conditions around SEQ. Let's go Webber!
Given California's drought problem, where does he get the water from?
Here's the location... It was brought up in January 2014 as two lakes, but in this later image one of the lakes was filled in and construction taken to install the wave generator.
The wave pool in the vid is located where that construction is taking place (above the obvious lake).
Damn, Craig - stole my thunder.
How the hell did they keep this location and construction under wraps............?
Lemoore, next to the Phoenix sunrise golf course.
The wave is absolutely amazing and flawless, and will be on everyones bucket list including mine.
But the reality will be the cost to surf it will be crazy just to cover the per wave expense and you will be lining up behind 50 to 100 guys and maybe even need to book in weeks to months in advance, then it will be a full pressure moment with everyone waiting in line watching and all this pressure to actually not fall…god i wish i was one of Kellys lucky good friends.
online auction for bookings
cut out the scalpers
isn't free enterprise wonderful?
no line ups as those willing to pay whatever will govern demand for the limited supply.
how much a day does it cost to be at beaver creek primetime?
Great stuff Kelly! now they really can drop WA from the tour. No wind,no sharks,no fat cutback waves to winge about, they can even set the VIP tent upwherever the fuck they like. Now we have seen the future.
Looks like Fred Pawle managed to get hold of Webber:
“I’m not worried. We have the best design in the world. At best, they (Slater’s team) will be a close second. If they are lucky we will both be the Airbus and Boeing of the wave pool market.”
Awesome wave but the likelihood is that a 5 star resort will be built next door, private airfield nearby and anyone who doesn't want to spend 10 Grand won't get past the razor wire.
Flat day fun lol
Some variation in the wave would stop it getting monotonous. Better still if the variation can manipulated. Under 4 foot even old Kirra got boring when it was perfect but repetitious.
This is a game changer for competition though. It will create a new approach....and how many wsl heats are decided by who gets the best wave?
So it's a perfect wave for what it is. But it isn't a world class wave in terms of power or potential performance. Its perfection also changes the nature of the skill necessary to ride it. If every wave is the same and each wave is the same along the length of the ride then the surfer does not need to read the wave at all, they just perform a gymnastic routine that happens to involve a surfboard and a wave. Kinda like ice skating. All very clever but not what inspires most of us to get out there.
There are a few other things we should consider also,as Indo suggested this will be for elite surfers, corporate groups and the wealthy. The rest of us are very unlikely to get access.
Finally locating it in a drought struck area where water shortages are likely to be permanent as the ground water has been massively depleted speaks to total environmental disregard. Wherever that water ius coming from it could be put to better use. In other words this project totally destroys Slater's credibility on environmental issues...forever. Nor does it do much for his reputation as a businessman since there must be grave doubts about its long term viability. But yeh, he got a new toy and that made him happy which was probably the main consideration in the project.
Re the first paragraph BB, I couldn't agree more.
The idea of putting professional surfers in that and calling it a surfing comp would be an abomination to my mind. Call it water dancing or something, just not surfing.
The whole point of surfing, and the frustration, is that it is never perfect, it always requires reflexes, reading of conditions, some sense of danger - even a 2' beach break can lead to hairy/fun closeouts.
A perfect wave, great, but being in the ocean is the very essence of what is most attractive about surfing to me. The wide, wild blue yonder, the sense of anticipation for the next unknowable wave, the fear of being caught inside on a roguey when you are already at or past your limits of comfort. All gone.
But on the other hand, I heartily endorse these developments and believe that every surfer should get out on them as often as they can.
Not saying I wouldn't want to try them, but can't see them as being any sort of replacement for actual surfing. Sort of a simulacrum, of the Baudrillard variety.
Sorry, had to throw that in there. I've used that phrase numerous times this week. If your child is doing or recently completed his/her HSC, you might be familiar with the term, and grimacing at why you know it. :-)
I'm sure they'll be a way to spice things up in the future - have a movable floor with alternating bathymetrical features that change the wave shape, and throw out different sections. Obviously they'd only be able to create a finite number of possibilities (and over time you'd get to know which was which) but I think this would dispel the notion that all waves were identical.
Sounds like a pretty big investment over and above what must already be a very hefty capital outlay. All for an unproven business model ....... I hope no-one has invested their hard earned in this!
What you're overlooking BB, is that Dirk Ziff props up pro surfing, which is itself a failed business model. It's an indulgence for him and he keeps it ticking over. I'm sure Ziff will soon have his hand in this if he doesn't already. Investment wont be a problem.
How pathetic we have become when the entire sport is propped up by a bored New York investment banker. Self-respect? Nah, we'll just suck at the tit of the biggest game in town.
wsl might just be a tax write off. Most or all sport leagues are deemed Not For Profit in the U.S . If you can get your head around that?
Blindboy Isnt the wave pool built on a ex water ski lake , Sunrise water skiing Lemoore ?
udo it doesn't matter what it was. It takes some serious level of contempt for the environment as well as the less wealthy residents to build a surf resort in an area already suffering from serious long term water shortages. I will post a reference to the problems if I can locate something suitable.
Looks unreal, made my day, I'm sure there will be thousands built around the world, cheap for the masses, shark free, and 24/7 365.
Looks fun for about 1 or 2 waves. People will never recreate the chaos of surfing ocean waves (even the perfect ones) and as such it will never be the same. It's a glorified flow rider to me.
It would be like forking out a couple of thousand for a high class escort, rewarding in the short term but ultimately unsatisfying.
Look at that lip, razor thin. You could shave with the lip while you're surfing!
But it is a thing of beauty, when taken just for what it is.
So if it was cystral clear tropical blue water, surrounded by palm trees and he was surfing in boardies, would you all be still underwhelmed???
They are only going to keep improving on this. Bigger waves, heavier sections etc etc. I worried about the backwash off the wall that you see in the background at around the 1min mark which could effect the following wave, but I'm sure they will work on some sort of dampenning system.
It's only going to get bigger and better, and there are always going to be whingers and purists.
and it's a shit load better wave than we've got dribbling out the front here at the moment.
and around the same temperature too:)
Fun every once in a while, good for training, but ultimately it would be unrewarding. It takes the inconsistent reward out of surfing which is the addictive aspect of it (just like poker machines - will the next wave be the one).
This applies to watching surfing as well. Iron out the variables and the sport becomes too dull and repetitious.
That having been said, be fun as every once in a while.
Cmon Blindboy he's on the holy grail. Taking it to the mainstream. I remember two years ago at Cloudbreak he was having a moan to Shane about it sending him broke. Good on him.
Early days yet but if he succeeds he will be surfings 2nd Billionaire.
2nd billionaire?
Who's the first?
The usual story is generation one makes the money, generation two manages to hold on to it and generation three loses the lot. Looks like they might skip a generation this time.
Maybe the levels have all changed and he is generation one.
Are you throwing in the towel Blindboy and accepting Kelly to become King in the business world too? Hes got a few irons in the fire.
I don't know anyone that would be happy with surfing becoming even more mainstream. I know OF plenty of people that would be, i.e. those raping surfing for a dollar, but anything that is going to end up putting more people in the water is a bad thing.
I will be interested to see how much it costs and how the line up works etc, but I can't see it being super accessible for many punters, which is a good thing. Unfortunately, its use as a promotional tool for surfing will be a bad thing.
Oh, and bye the way, as much as I hope the whole thing dies a dismal death, I wouldn't say no to a shot on it for an hour or two.
yep I agree 100% with what you said Geroids.
Plus you have a priority pass straight to the front.
Nick Woodman
Oh, I see.
Well it would be lovely to see a surfer become a billionaire who's father wasn't an investment banker.
Go for it Kelly I say.
This is pretty good on the problems in that area.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/28/california-central-valley...
Hahha
All the hype from everyone.
Just found out thru email from a good friend of mine in the USA, his boss! helped fund and design with KS this product.
Apparently the lip will get thicker, the wave will vary in shape and size x2 overhead, but at $750 US per/hr there is a price to pay.
Eco friendly tent camping with your own waiter/waitress and five star meals.
Is this $750ph call legit or a g up welly, cause I'm interested in surfing it but not at that price
Slater on powering the wave up in size: "I think we can nearly double it quite easily."
Slater when asked if Greg Webber would be the second surfer to ride a wave in his pool
Slater....long pause blank look .....Greg Who ?
Haha he has some good lines eh.
Reminds me when he was asked if he was worried Shane Beschen was coaching Jordy Smith. Slater replied thats good if Jordy wants to come second.
best place an order for one of the 9'0"s brewer is shaping at the moment via lyle carlson then
Although I admit it is quite marvellous and its early days where this technology could go from here.
Fuck yeah build a hundred of them..get rid of all the fuckwit wannabe's into the wavepools and leave the real coast behind..slatet thankyou you genius
Sold: for a couple of trinkets, shiny baubles and a bald head.
The saddest thing about turning our backs on the ocean for the biggest commercial sell-out since Gidget: we're fucking cheering it on.
Well said!
But its al sooooo pretty. I hope everyone starts wearing golf pants to it.
They can have it. Surfing is more than the wave.
Damn...You're right again Free, Just when I was thinking maybe Slater was paying back to surfing like he should, you've highlighted again it's the opposite, he's actually increased his debt to surfing. I wonder what Tony Ty Carson (Big Island Hawaii) thinks of this fucking sell-out!
ok, fcuk it, what's the world coming to? Jizz in your pants all you like about this but it's high octane energy use with a finite energy resource. You can argue the energy use is largely irrelevant on a universal scale, but the environment has to pay the piper, eventually. How is the swell generated? I'm guessing this thing isn't solar powered.
Very seductive in a way but it tends toward a world i don't want to be part of. This feels like a commercialised resource hungry enterprise.
Throwing a few rocks in the ocean to improve currently un rideable waves would be far more beneficial from an energy use perspective.
It's no good . I watched it in the mirror . But thats still as close as this thing is going to get being a left in the near future . That wave is not a functioning bottom curve . The lake is shaped ( see the horizontal photo posted by Craig . The dirt ( ex second lake ) is now the wave pool he's riding , you can see it narrow on the left ( southern end ) . The wedge drive rail or infrastructure is above . So until they drain the other lake, reform it , add seperate drive infrastructure . No lefts ...... And that right looks too small for this monkey to fit in backhand . Nit sure on the double size thing . That thing is maxed out on the " wash wall " . And I'm also tipping it would be as long as maybe 5 mins between waves . Once the water starts " sloshing " around in the wank tank , it'll take a while to settle . That first image did look surreal ( so did the strippers tits ) , but it's not like I was allowed to " motor boat " them ....... Mmmmmmm
So how long do you reckon Kelly has been playing in the pool then? Footage shows full wetsuits and generally indicating winter (now), but the cover photo of the story shows him in boardshorts. Fuck surfing, Kelly should take up cards if he can keep a poker face that long!!
Well spotted Bazdogs! Kelly's vid only copped a million or so hits yesterday and you're the first to notice that. And you're dead right, I enlarged the shot, he's in boardies.
nay, lom spotted this 12:08pm yesterday in video thread
Freeride76 "Sold: for a couple of trinkets, shiny baubles and a bald head.
The saddest thing about turning our backs on the ocean for the biggest commercial sell-out since Gidget: we're fucking cheering it on."
Fucking drama queen. It's not a case of either or, it's just an alternative FFS. No ones getting shot. It's just a pretty awesome looking wave pool. No ones going to be forced to use it, it's all gonna be ok........
Go easy Rabbits, Keep it civil please, Free's only exposing what this really is...just like he exposed Slater and his clothing line - Both projects are commercial - read between the lines - he's trying to make money and business - it's uncool in Free's and Tony Ty's world
Bullshit. Free makes money, and out of surfing too.
Yes... Exactly Rabbits! All these farkn whingers and whiners... Stop trying to pretend this isn't awesome. To see something like this is a massive revolution in surfing no question. If you watched the clip and aren't impressed u are an idiot. If you say you wouldn't want to have a go on this wave you are straight up lying! Some people dislike slater and what he represents... Truth is he is a pioneer, a visionary and an amazing ambassador for surfing as a sport and a lifestyle. Anybody can only dream of being able to have such an influence and the resources at hand to be part of and enjoy this creation. It's man made so what?! This in no way goes against or betrays what surfing is about. It enhances the possibilities and opportunities for surfing in the future. Free ride, black duck etc - pull ya heads outta ya arses you miserable idealistic fools! Look how stoked he is in the vid!! I mean, he has 11 world titles, hes surfed an infinite amount of amazing waves and surfed them better than pretty much anybody.... And you know what?! He's still stoked! Still stoked on surfing and will continue to be in whatever form it takes. He has the money and resources and friends to pull off such an incredible example of design, innovation and human creativity... All in the name of fun! Get it! Hes having fun!! And you're at home on a computer grumbling about something you've never tried and supposedly don't want to! Ha!! Pull the other one! Truth is the guy has achieved more in his lifetime than most could in 10. We should all admire him for his ability to do things we could only ever dream of, because he is creating, not just dreaming... What a legend and what a legendary creation... Look at the state of the world, reflect on what you'd like to do in your lifetime and put it in perspective... thats why he's called jelly flater! ;) ;)
Nailed it.
Bob & Jelly, thanks for the laugh!! Fuckin cracked me up!! Not unlike Bob Jelly from Sea Change actually , however, he was a shifty bit of work. Pretty sure Kelly doesn't have any hidden agenda, like discouraging surfing in the ocean at the expense of wave pools.....
Thank god some have piped up and stopped the miserable dribble. It's an incredible wave and feat. Some of you need a reality check. Perhaps you're all spoiled with a plethora of the "real thing" - not all of us are and this vid and creation has me stoked more than pretty much anything I've seen lately.
Kudos to Mr Slater, let the haters and complainers pick it apart and force their idealogical environmental perspective upon it. He's just launched a more sustainable and eco focused clothing brand and got heck for it. If you care so much for the beloved planet, initiate some small change in Asia/China and you'll do more good than lifetimes of operation by wavepools of this ilk the world over.
Brighten up people.
@ bb I love it when surfers pull the environmental card. Surfboards, wetsuits fuel up and down the coast. Jet flights overseas etc. but I suppose you carve your own out of a tree trunk and wear an old footy jumper and walk to every surf. FFS if you weren't excited by that first footage you can only wallow in our fuck ups rather than mans achievments
I can appreciate this wave as a technical achievement and I don't really think it is a major eco-disaster either. I can see how they would be a huge help in developing board shapes, as they take out a major variable and would allow shapers to see what factors really affect how a surfboard works. As I said in a previous post, I wouldn't mind having a shot on it.
BUT
I think wave pools will turbo charge the surfing hype machine. I can see how they will be used for stadium surfing events to further raise the profile of surfing in the muggle world, the main goal of this being for surf companies to make a dollar. These companies are already making as much as they can out of the existing pool of surfers so the only way they can increase revenue is by creating more surfers.
I believe wave pools will increase pressure on breaks as surfing in general becomes more accessible to the general population. Consider a new generation of kooks paddling around your local that have had time to hone their skills in a wave pool without fully understanding the dynamics of surfing in the ocean.
I hope it is as expensive as buggery so maybe it will only be used as an R & D tool.
I think this is our generation's equivalent of the introduction of the leg rope.
Also nailed it.
For me Gearoid's post is more to the point - I don't begrudge Kelly making some (or lots) of money and I also don't see this as an environmental end-of-the-world.
But, when surfing is in the Olympics and it's absolutely mainstream and there're a bunch of wave pools around the world and the crowds are thick as flies, well, at least I'll probably be too old to worry about it. At some stage I'll nudge Mickey Dora and laugh and say "check out what these dickheads have brought on themselves!"
I ain't no 'hater' and I'm not smitten by shiny baubles either but I reckon the best approach to this news - at least once the initial smiley face buzz has worn off - is cold detachment. More than a few surfers, some of them very wise indeed, have called this pool a "game changer" and I'm not gonna rush headlong at something that has the capacity to change what I love without some dispassionate analysis first.
I think all the socially acceptable comments are relevant. (Some of the less may have some good information that gets lost in the way it's said). All can be categorised and ranked according to a neat set of criteria I recently heard from a politician ( he didn't acknowledge who said it first of course).
If if nothing happens what is the worst and what is the best consequence?
If something happens -what is the worst and what is the best consequence?
That gives a fundamental everybody-can-do 4-way test on benefits vs. the opposite from all sides.
Everyone's perception and homework add to a better understanding that can bypass the hype and find what is the best thing that can happen.
So who is up to do the analysis of the comments and information available?
I also just learnt the difference on a doco between concrete and formal thinkers and thinking -it's worth knowing about oneself and which one we are...
When the wave break here dont be there. Watch out wsl Rick Kane is making a comeback
I think Stu & Craig have earned themselves some time in Leau for this, working overtime on a Saturday before Xmas.
Best wavepool wave by far. Impressive achievement. It doesn't quite duplicate real surfing as the curl does not move laterally across the wave, but stays in one spot. I suspect that might limit the pleasure after a while.
it moves laterally wally. take a closer look. you can see the background moving, and watch old mate with his camera sitting still.
awesome achievement, but probably something only for the rich to enjoy.
You could be correct. But I don't think so. The pool is too narrow. You move down the pool, but not across the pool. The first wave, before Kelly surfs one, with the camera directly in front of the wave, shows the curl not moving right.
I think the footage might be deceiving, not convinced yet. I think about this way though....clean barrels need clean water in front of them. so sideways shift into clean water must be occurring.
the wave could be running at an angle down the length of the pool, like say at 15 or 20 degrees. which would allow the lateral shift across a narrow pool.
I wish it was up and running in Sydney today. I'd be on it like Oprah on a baked ham.
Very impressive. Wonder what it's like to surf in fresh water? Maybe a bit of clay on the feet so boots would be necessary to stop slipping?
The energy cost to run this must be pretty high. Too costly for the average surfer to get a look in.
fong my point is that Central Valley is the epicentre of California's water problems. Even if, which I doubt, Slater can come up with some justification for using that water, it is still a symbolic expression of contempt. You poor bastards who can't get enough water for your crops or in some cases, household use, well screw you look at us rich boys playing in all OUR water. Perfect example of the way surfing sucks on the 1% . You know the story. Surfing's image is so tarnished it no longer has enough value to support the tour so we'll just find some billionaire who wants to hang out with the boys and stroke his ego. AND the stupid fucks who will never get anywhere near our new toy will clap their hands and go yippee ' cos we let them watch!
Spare me the rant fong if you are so shallow that you believe the "successful" can do what they want because they have the wealth then you are just another one of the sheep, too lazy to think for themselves, baa baa.
In 2015 i don't think you buy shares in mining or develop real estate and relax. Just a little heads up! lol
Ever the master of mind games, it'd be funny if he was riding a Webber design in the vid.
There's electric cars to shuttle you back to the start.
Solar power for the beer fridge and slushy machine.
Solar powered human look a like robots with fake...voices.
An orchestra in the background producing the great waves...D i n n g g g...
IMO good work KS, I'd love to have a go, well done;)
Should have a Supreme section like Bobbys with organic mango juice for rehydrating on your shuttle and some of an American cheerleader giving you a lappy in the shuttle on way back.
Merry Christmas Welly. Off to get waves in NZ saaaaaa
Music to my ears , welly !!! Lol
Is nobody going down the low tech road. Surely there are countless third world locations where low costs would make the moving of a few rocks a tourism windfall for the locals and a guaranteed return for the guy that makes it happen.
.... And why see surf as a finite resource that should be limited to those lucky enough to grow up on the Coast? Wave pools have the potential to make surfing something that can be enjoyed throughout the world. Despite what grumpy cynics would have you think everything is not always about money and exploitation. This might put a lot of smiles on a lot of faces that would never have caught a wave.
It's already happened to the world first at Bargara near Bundaberg. Surf starved locals championed by Greg Redguard got approvals to put an excavator out into the intertidal zone and move rocks around to create a wave shape (when there is swell). He got motivated when a friend died in the surf hitting his head on a rogue rock.
It is also a very natural thing to do in our Permian coastline where the current rock platforms are duplicated over and over out to sea (past sea level platforms) -we know them as the reefs we surf. All layers have broken into Blocks (like lego) consistent with the thickness of the sandstone, or other rock layer, blocks that fell out are deeper ( full wave) than the ones that didn't (closeouts) . Its been there for the improvement all this time.
So play lego with the existing ancient submerged wave notch platforms of the Sydney basin and you can rebuild a nice edge shape to a submerged platform. Too easy for some skilled divers, geomorphologists and rock mechanic trained engineers.
bob we tried that about thirty years ago on the northern end of Freshwater. The late Peter Crawford led the effort. The spot was perfect, a nice well formed peak that just needed something to break on. It all came to grief when Freshwater Boardriders (hang your heads in shame!) opposed it because it might make Freshwater more crowded! We pissed ourselves about that for years, so hope you enjoyed the last few decades of "uncrowded" close outs boys.
yes I know about that, I think that a subeditor of the SMH lived over it and helped the locals mount a very successful media campaign against it. The lesson learnt was -do it where none cares and everyone wants it - not in the middle of Nimbys. Not impossible as there are many such locations - but not for this century maybe?
Add fishing habitat and safety to the mix and have many dedicated supporters and 2100 may see it?
It was a highlight of the world's first artificial surfing reef symposium held in manly maybe 1998 of so -but had been on the go for quite a while before that, I am sure.
yeh the highlight of the public meeting was some nob who worked in "security" stood up said it would increase crime. I replied that there had been three bouncers in Manly Court already that year for assault. But you're right in the public mind it is OK to flatten every piece of native vegetation to create a golf course but if you want to move a few sandstone slabs around in the wave zone, that's environmental vandalism.
Then the marine scientist that said only mickey mouse studies had been done on the effect of the few boulders on the habitat - I thought wtf -does he think it will take down the entire east coast up to Fraser Island? How about when an east coast low stirs the pot?
Of course if you create a wave in a country that wants tourist $ then you have a business model in which someone legitimately owns the wave.
too much information
I don't see a problem
It looks great but will it be commercially viable? No doubt they will want to roll these out all over, but It will have to be cheap enough for the average Joe to use or it will just be an expensive toy for Slater and his mates.
Note that Snowdonia bizzo charges 39 euro for an hour (59 AUD) - how many waves do you get for that?
I agree StuNet, I'm no hater either but there's stuff that Free is revealin' thats heavy -
Free's wisdom is great and he's used an incredible analogy between this artificial wave and Gidgett -- I googled Gidget and and what that bitch did to surfing was seriously evil stuff and maybe this pool will do the same?? Let's look at what's being laid out here - Slater's clothing, his growing debt to surfing, Selling -out, Gidget and not real wave - it's scary stuff don't you think??
Whats all this negative talk about Gidget?
As a kid i loved Gidget my first crushes as a kid were probably Sally fields (Gidget) along with Princess leia it probably shaped the kind of girls i like, that goofy girl next door type mixed with an sexy adventures feminine warrior.
And loved the new Gidget as a grom totally tacky just like North Shore but still somehow gold
If anything has screwed surfing its pro surfing, big surf brands and the internet.
Gents, Slater owes nothing to surfing and neither do you. This maybe a game changer, let's see. One thing we do know is that more people want to surf and this is a possible solution. Personally, I love the search. But as we have seen from several articles just here on SN with Macaronis, reef formations and the management of the Goldie, times are a changing. This may just be the catalyst for formation of reefs near viable natural rock formations. Talking to the groms, they love it.
Tones do you seriously think that wave pools and all that they will bring with them will be a solution??
Solution to what? Crowds? It could lessen crowds at your local break. Also, don't forget, you still have to surf. Just because you can afford a day at the wave pool doesn't mean you'll become a surfer....imagine paying $100's of dollars for your first time. Probably would've written off surfing as a waste of money after that, much like golf.
@single...do we have the cost of a day in the park ? We know where one is but any others and where ?
One common factor we have is crowd or people. Maybe this can relieve it ?
Long way to go yet but I know there are a lot of blokes willing to give it a go.
Agree with both but, its when you watch a whole episode of gidget and view it from how Free and tony tye (big island Hawaii) might view it that you start to see glimpses of evil in the bitch gidget. Interestingly, both gidget and this wave come from California and thats scary hey!
Caliphonia?
I know, it is heavy hey BB...thank god Free's input alerts us all to these things. I'm still with Stunet and not a hater tho and sometimes get confused on Slaters spiralling debt to surfing but this thread has been super revealing. - SlaterClothes/Debt/olympics/Gidget/Not Real wave/California/
i thinks it's unbelievably good.i'd line up for an hour and spend $100 for 2 waves.That's my dollar value on the wave.a video of the event would be nice too but probably would cost extra.actually just realised i'm way off cost.it's $600 dollars for a tandem out of an aeroplane.maybe closer to $100 dollars per wave and video included
I guess it's going to be interesting how quickly it settles after each wave. No one wants to surf through chop especially if you're paying 100 bucks a wave. Bummer if you blow the first turn! Puts new meaning on the real value of each wave.
Looks unreal though!
That is key to how many waves (product) you can produce per hour. This is just a prototype I think. There seems little there in run off areas and wave turbulance baffles. Snowdonia put extensive design work into getting rid of wave turbulance quickly. They found that it wasn't as effective as they had hoped and they have had to reduce wave frequency. They were hoping for a wave a minute, they have had to reduce it to every minute and a half. More like 2 minutes if they want a best quality wave.
It's really just about money....after the first few minutes its not that interesting. The magic drops away pretty quickly, the modern life of quick fulfillment....rather go surf 1-2 ft wind swell any day
You'd honestly rather surf 1 ft windswell than that ?
I get your point -it's not surfing unless it looks like, feels like and the experience is like a real circumstance of nature.
But as a vertical wind tunnel is to skydiving, winged suit and base jumping it will attract customers who will pay what they can, to fly when they can..
Conceived, designed, packaged and marketed, it will be another part
on offer to the skilled surfer (who will pay as much as demand dictates for the supply available)
It's marvellous to see what skills are developed in a vertical wind tunnel practiced and repeated time and time again to do then from 20,000 ft. The wind tunnel is $1000 plus an hour. A top artificial wave may need the same return to be profitable or attract enough interest to float the business publically (pun intended)
logistics - well go figure
I'd be interested to know how much that pool could be built for, not the price some entrepreneur could charge. Could a private, albeit wealthy, citizen afford one? Is it in the price range for local municipalities and their parks and rec departments? Could I win the powerball and build one instead of buying a lot at the Ranch?
That said, most surfers will never surf a wave as perfect as that. Their local breaks will never be even close to that good, and even boat trips to Indo or anywhere else will not likely produce a wave of that quality and consistency. That's not to say I would cease traveling, but would you drop $3,000 on a 5 day boat trip with iffy results or 5 days on that wave?
It's a no brainer- boat trip anyday.
(I'd still love to give the wavepool a go though)
Yeah...both. My once in a lifetime boat trip was to the Hinakos in "96. Wouldn't trade it for anything. But, I shared the boat with two trust fund Americans and their Puerto Escondido friends who wanted to bail after three days of marginal swell so they could go back to Nias for drugs and hookers. Me and another guy refused. Luckily the swell came up the next day. Then a speed boat full of Brazilians showed up that afternoon. Not a problem in the wave pool (as long as everyone agrees to take turns.)
My local break's not much of a wave but it shits on that as many days of the year I care to surf it. It has several different breaks, comes in all sizes and shapes, barrels sometimes, plenty of wildlife in,the water and beautiful undeveloped scenery. I'm not rippin on slater, I agree it will change the face of surfing but give me a choice between a five day boat trip and a day in this swill...no brainer.
I agree that destinations and settings are important and worthwhile regardless of how this plays out....but if you wanted waves and could only afford the occasional trip, I don't know which one I'd choose now.
Its a no brainer neither, $3,000 and i could pay for my flights and spend a month in the Mentawai's/Telos on the cheap and burn a shit load of fuel surfing everyday.
I don't know much about this particular location but I doubt very much it will ever be commercialised. My guess is Lemoore will be used as a prototype for R&D and the "real" wavepools built in far more accessible locations, especially the first. Flippin' exciting if you ask me.
I'm of the same thinking as well.
You're underestimating the attraction of Fresno.
You're 100% spot on. The local council's Site Plan Review application (which was accepted in September - see below) states that this is a "research and development facility", with a "maximum occupancy of thirty guests for all events and activities".
I really don't see this being or leading to a negative for surfing, as far as what surfing is for the Average Joe.
It's not going to be a way a raft of new beginners will learn to surf. Look at the wave it's a slow barrelling wave that is actually going to be tricky to surf for a beginner. A beginner needs the kind of wavepool waves already available at the dubai pool. Soft crumbly waist high dribblers. If wavepool tech was going to lead to a surge of beginners learning to surf, that pool would have lead the way and spread to the rest of the world. Clearly that market isn't a viable one for wave pools.
More importantly though, if a bunch of kooks do you use it to learn to ride waves better it won't help them to surf better. They will have good skills on the wave face but no skills in getting to that position. Years ago I got my dream trip to PNG and came back so much better on the wave. But when I paddled out at my local beachie I was back to my old self. Without the waves coming to me in the same spot, perfectly lined up on the reef, with no one else out my new found skills couldn't be put to use. I still had more to learn about how to surf in the true sense of the word.
Some might think this will lead to loads of people clogging lineups around the world thinking they know how to surf cos they got shacked at Slater's pool. But I think the low numbers of people who will actually get to use this and then be able to learn enough to want to paddle out will be dwarfed by the millions turned out by the surf schools around the world. That horse has bolted, but to comparatively little effect in my opinion.
Thing is, surfing is such hard work for so little reward that most aren't interested when they discover how hard it is. I've taught so many family members and friends how to surf, pushing them onto little insiders on a long board, teaching them how to get to their feet and seen them buzzing declaring they were going to get their own board. Only to see them bail on the idea as soon as they have to paddle out and onto their first waves themselves. Too much like hard work for seconds of reward.
As for contests, these will be niche contests as well I think. This is surfing's terrain park. The contests will be comparable to the half pipe stuff in skiing and snowboarding. Still a niche part of the sport and really forever will be. It will consist of comps to do fancy tricks that look impressive for five minutes but don't engage the imagination. Listen to everyone complaining about Medina for years and now Toledo. Flashy airs that few can really relate to don't fire the imagination like a big gouge that we old bastards can all comprehend because of that fleeting second we had a fully engaged rail on a big open face or slashed the top of what felt like a rifling, thickish lip line. The hype generated by contests in a pool will lead to kids wanting to do airs in a pool, not to bother with the paddling out, duckdiving, navigating rips, lulls and closeouts, not to mention cranky old men like you lot protecting their local.
As for the environmental impact. There's no question a more sensitive location could have been chosen (probably in the Pac NW where there is more free flowing water, if it had to be an inland location) but I don't think it has to be fatal to Slater's environmental credentials. I'm a big believer in water markets for mitigating environmental impact, provided they are administered properly.
If there is a suitable water market that captures the full cost of water use, including the environmental impact, free trading of water rights ensures water flows to the highest value use resulting in the greatest net social benefit for the same environmental cost. California has a water trading system, not sure how equitable or corrupt it is, but it's likely that Slater had to pay for the water. It's possible that this use of water may prevent that water from being used in low value, essentially unsuitable agriculture. Inappropriate for the region I mean - like growing rice in semi-arid Australia. There's plenty of work done in natural resource economics on this and if applied correctly water trading can lead to better use of water than some ag in the region. I'm not saying it is in this case, but I'm saying it could be.
From an ecological and hydrological point of view the San-Joaquin River is basically munted. As blindboy pointed out, groundwater pumping has buggered the aquifers. The California aqueduct moves water around the state to such an extent that the river is now reliant on imported water via the aqueduct - it's subsidised by the Sacramento river. So much of the original aquatic habitat has been lost to agriculture as well.
It seems to me that, notwithstanding the soil quality, agriculture isn't a great idea in the region, at least not crops with high irrigation requirements. Some rich guy playing in a comparatively small wavepool is less of an issue to me than the environmental devastation caused by years of intensive ag based on evidently inappropriate water use. Slater can hardly be blamed for the environmental devastation caused by years of ecologically and hydrologically damaging farming practices. And I don't have much pity for the farmers who collectively caused the problem, albeit not intentionally as individuals.
So in short I'm still bullish on the idea. Slater's not to blame for the environmental devastation of California's central valley and he's not going to add much to it. The region isn't suited to high irrigation farming and a transition to these kinds of water use might be more beneficial from an environmental and social point of view. And I don't think it will change surfing very much. It will change wave pools sure, but not surfing. It's fun eye candy and if we all get to play for a day in Webber's pool, if it gets built soon enough, then that'll be fun too.
Great post mate.
Totally agree this is the most relevant post so far. There have been a few. But this about sums it up IMO.
Top post.
Regarding the water in Cali, I've read quite a bit that suggests in recent centuries there have been an anomaly of much wetter conditions, and the more typical climate is arid. El Nino may be changing that this year with NW American snow resorts topping up nicely from what I can see. For their drought, it was perplexing to see a stationary high sit off the Cali coast for what seemed consecutive years; I have never seen anything like it in a long time of looking at meteorological charts.
As far as surf schools go, the transfer rate from beginners lessons to competent surfers that will compete in a demanding lineup seems very limited. Maybe 1 in 200 has that 'burn' and love. Nurturing a true surfer takes an inordinate amount of effort and hundreds of sessions; and perhaps the dedicated surfing family unit, then local boardriders, is the best mechanism to this end. (If you are reading and a beginner and do have that 'burn' do not be discouraged: you will find your surfing 'family' and they will share great waves and times with you, it happens! Just follow your heart.)
Once you've nurtured one or two real surfers in a lifetime, a trip to Mr Slater's wave pool would be of immense value for biomechanics, performance & equipment fine tuning for them.
Totally true…God good waves can actually ruin your surfing, i spent six months in the Mentawai's years ago, came back and could barely surf because the waves just seemed so unpredictable and uneven i think I'm still suffering from it.
Agree with the rest also.
Got completely thrashed around the first several times I surfed. Only thing that would have made it worse was if I had paid a few hundred dollars to do it.
Holy shit, looking at how long that post is, barley is right...I do crap on a fair bit.
I would love to read it in dot point summary
otherwise tmi that is overwhelming
No benski, all good stuff. The economics is all fine if you think the current economic conditions in the U.S. are in any way fair. To me the symbolism of rich (probably white) boys playing in their wave pool in an area critically short of water just adds to the perception in the wider community that surfers are shallow and lost in some kind of dream that has less and less connection to how the vast majority live. Keep it real? Not really our style is it?
Don't hold up, those posts are the best! Some of us love to read & read & read
Much analysis, environmental impacts, strategising and conceptualising done here. Does anyone know the business model, whether this is just an R&D site (suspect it is).
The key point is Slater maybe onto something. Sure for many its not for them but geez there are many that want to give it a go.
I would guess the business model is to roll these out in every developed surfing country. You don't patent something for kicks.
Though they have to make the economics work and that will entail making it a reasonable price for people to use and use often. Snowdonia charges 39 Euro per hour (around 60 AUD).
If its $200 per hour or fifty bucks a wave or whatever then very few will bother - more than once anyway
The rate at which waves come through will be key.
No doubt they will have a bunch of people crunching the numbers and putting together a flash presentation for potential investors / franchisees
Still trying to get my head around why Slater is doing it. Money? Has plenty. To create his on half pipe in the backyard?Maybe although he can chase swells anywhere. To show it can be done? Fair enough but seems a rather extreme exercise. To bring surfing to the landlubbers? Why haven't they got enough diversions already (first world problem?). Nup. Can't figure this one.
Really?…I totally get it, Kellys just a big kid like us all, don't we all dream of perfect waves and the perfect wave pool…plus i get the feeling Kelly likes a challenge and likes pushing things to be the best at what he does.
Yep that is the only reason making sense to me. Play thing has the dollars and connections so it is a project for him. Still the guy can travel anywhere, get plenty of waves, stay where he wants, the last thing I would want to be doing is hanging out in the back blocks of shitsville California in a dam surfing.
Also wonder if the idea is to make a mirror of the 'reef' so the one wave generator makes a right and a left along a central axis.
Excellent post Benski summed it up well
No doubt about it, Kelly's wave blows every other attempt so far clean out the water. However, I'm pretty interested to see how it compares to wavegarden (and GW version when it arrives) in terms of its commercial viability. Yes, it's a pretty damn good wave, but will it make money? And will Johnny fat-guts the insurance salesman want to take his kids there on his yearly 'extreme' holiday? Looks to me like he'd prefer to ride his 50L cooked potato at a more gentle wave than Kelly's version so would be more likely to choose a snowdonia type location - personally I think more advanced surfers will choose different locations to surf than a wave park, so although Kelly's wave delivers on quality, will it deliver on dollars? I Spose only time will tell
Interesting photo thanks to kndy in the other wave pool article, which shows some of the mechanics behind the system: looks like a large drum winch and a thick steel cable.
I'd imagine this would be the main system that drags the foil along to create the wave - but once a wave is completed, how long does it take to return it back to the starting point?
Maybe it has a drum and line at the other end and pulls it back the other way creating a left?
1.18 in the vid, first glance looked to exhaust stacks of some sort, but outdoor Lpg heaters I think ....been some night surfing/testing going on ?
Lights. Roof. Surf 24-7 365 days a year anywhere. What about filtration and water quality? Ponds are tricky things to maintain. Salt? How much do you need in a pool that size to keep bacteria, algae, and mosquitoes out?
As a surfer who lives in Melbourne and has a regular Mon-Fri 9-5 job, who is restricted to maybe 1 day a week at very best, and sometimes doesn't get to surf for 2-3 week straight periods even longer because of life stuff.
If one of these pools was within a 30min drive from home/work I'd absolutely be super keen to hit it probably once a week after or before work, if it was financially viable thats is. I wouldn't be going on a weekely basis for $100 a wave, if i was paying $100 a wave, i guarantee you i'd kook under pressure of not wanting to waste $100.
If i paid $100 for an hour or 2 and was guaranteed 5-10 waves then Id be more likely to go once a week. Im sure they could get some multi-pass/season ticket kinda thing happening for regular users to make it even more affordable.
The people who are dissing it are probably the people who live 20 mins max from a beach with actual waves and can surf before, after work during the week and can sneak in a few hours on a weekend before having to do life stuff. I live a 5 min walk from a beach, but it just happens to be flat 361 days of the year, stormy anyone????
Think of us poor Melbournians.
Kelly, build your first one in Australia in Melbourne I plead (but don't rip us a new one).
move to geelong dude
Thomas11 aim to work for yourself then you can please yourself. I live between Melbourne and the Peninsula and surf when the conditions are aligned, however I do have my own business and have had for nearly 20 years. My enjoyment is getting my city hit then coast experience. Imagine if there was one of those things in Campbellfield. Ahhh....nup I think I will leave it to the industrial wasteland.
Id love to work for myself, I will one day, but my current chosen career path, and further post grad studies wont see that happening for probably 10+ years (Im only just 30 last week).
My goal in life is to live down the Peninsula way where i can run my own business and be flexible, but again that's a while off yet.
The family has a joint at Somers so I surf that way as much as I can and thats the long term destination.
But if Kelly could knock one of those up soon, that will suit me for a few years while I get the rest of my shit together.
Surfing is like everything else. You only get what you give. You want the career, the well paid job more than you want to go surfing? You make your choices and live with them. And yes, I live a 5minute walk from reasonable waves but am hitting retirement age short a million in super! Lots of good memories though!
1 mil super I wish! I will be working until I drop. Well done BB live by the waves and have managed that. Mine is all tied up in Real Estate which the billylids will inherit (and they can deal with whatever debt is left as well).
I think blindboy is saying that he is retiring without much super because he chose to be a surf bum
Sorry to disappoint you gearoid. I have done my fair share of serious work and will continue to do so for another decade or so. But I have also had a few longish breaks and far too many surf trips so I have not accumulated the wealth I might have. No complaints, but I find it weird when people make choices which massively reduce their surfing time to improve their future income, then whinge about it. I mean you got the money, I got the waves. Sounds fair to me.
I'm not going to sacrifice my career, future goals, friends and family, just to drop it all and take a lower paying job so I can surf a bit more. That would be a huge waste of the past 15 years of schooling, uni and working my way up the corporate chain. P.s. I actually really enjoy my corporate job, unlike others who see it as a necessary evil. It means I have money to take surfing holidays, skiing holidays, I'm not a materialistic person, I prefer to travel, and travel ain't cheap.
I'm not complaining about it, I understand my situation and I deal with it the best I can, i still get my surf fix, just not as much as i would like.
Kelly's wave pool could provide a short term solution to my lack of surfing time in these development years of my life.
Me too Thomas I would go brain dead if all I did was surf everyday.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/surf-lakes-everyone-gets-a-break#/story
neat idea for an intergalactic starship version of a simple pool?
Cheers everyone.
blindboy, I dig that. Surfers are the luckiest bastards around. Seriously, if you've got the time to surf and the physical fitness to do so, by crikey you're in the 1% globally eh. No doubt these guys are the cream of.
And I definitely think the economic system of the US is stacked against those on the have-not side of the coin. Sure there are exceptions of some climbing out of poverty but they generally seem to be just that, exceptions.
It's a curious place. Having lived there a couple of years, and being lucky enough to travel there often for work, it spins me out how it really contains the best of us as a species and the worst of us. It almost seems like you need the one (the cut throat everyone for themselves) to achieve the other (the advancement, the appreciation of the individual and the cultural diversity). I marvel at the place.
The water trading thing is an ideal just like capitalism is, which is as idealistic as Marxism and socialism in my limited opinion. A perfect market doesn't exist anywhere as far as I can tell, but if it did, it would lead to wonderful outcomes for many. And I reckon you're right, the water trading market is prone to just as much market failure as any other. But it's a worthwhile tool if we can make it work I think.
Anyway, the thing that makes me smile (or maybe grit my teeth) is that Slater's probably just chuckling to himself knowing he'd cause this much discussion and knowing he'd only have to release a short clip to do so. He could have launched with a bunch of surfers and just opened it up but he kept it to himself, drip fed a bit to keep everyone guessing at the bloody location and how it worked.
Weird to know you're being manipulated by a bloody master of mind games!
All good benski. As far as the U.S. goes, you can probably see the good and the bad from the inside but increasingly the rest of the world just sees the ugly; gun violence, unprovoked attacks on foreign countries, systematic oppression of minorities, the drug habits that fuel the Mexican cartels and so on.The place is, and always has been, a plutocracy, run by the rich for the benefit of the rich. And the cultural diversity you praise is everywhere under pressure, from the Appalachians to Hawaii it's Big Macs, Coca Cola, obesity and poverty.
...you're really a "the wave pool is half empty" sort of thinker.
On balance the USA. is the source of so much good. I was raised on left wing Aussie anti Americanism but then I lived there. ....and some of the nicest people you will ever meet.
Blob I have met numerous "nice" Americans, but it doesn't stop me recognising a toxic culture and the most profound threat to world peace on the planet.
As Australians I think we are better off focussing on our own flaws than knocking the Yanks.
After WW11 America spent its money enabling its greatest enemies, Japan and Germany, in becoming the democratic, free, rich, economic miracles they are.. This created a geopolitical legacy we have all benefited from. Give them some credit.
On the other hand the USSR dominated vassal states with fear, military power and communist propaganda. During the Cold War the USA kept spending its money throughout the world containing communist expansion so some Europeans could spend the money they saved on defence on the social program's so loved by anti American lefties.
.....and wasn't containing communist expansion such a great success? Vietnam? Rembrandt that. Not to mention the numerous repressive regimes propped up by U.S. Double dealing all the way from South America to the Middle East. And, of course, the Iraquis and Syrians owe them an enormous debt for destabilising their entire region. Now what other wonderful geopolitical achievements can we think of? Oh minor stuff really but subverting Australian democracy by scheming to overthrow the Whitlam government, supporting apartheid in South Africa, oh and let's not forget the contra deal guns for drugs. Dog bless America home of the slave!
Geez…take it easy, its Xmas.
Would you prefer to live in North Korea or South Korea?
Saying that we shouldn't critisize the U.S. because they are a "better" power than North Korea is a non-argument.
What've you got against South Korea?
What I said was bagging a wave pool by using a lazy and unbalanced anti American trope.....even as far as calling Americans fat......is ...umm....lazy and unnalanced.
....and call me stupid but I think the American model, as shown in Sth Korea, is more attractive than what Americans have died protecting us from....as shown in lovely North Korea.
Get it.?
I see, you were offering me a choice.
If we're talking about a toxic culture, I think it's obvious to talk about the obesity problem in the States (as well as Australia) as opposed to calling any discussion of it lazy. It would be lazy and unbalanced not to address obesity as part of a toxic culture.
Apart from possibly WW2, it's pretty much laughable to think that good ol benevolent Uncle Sam goes around the world protecting the poor downtrodden from the big bad guys. Give me a break.
So talk about fat Australians then.
"Apart from possibly WW2, it's pretty much laughable to think that good ol benevolent Uncle Sam goes around the world protecting the poor downtrodden from the big bad guys. Give me a break."
Nobody said that....try developing an argument instead of straw men.
But what about Korea then?
The USA is not a charity. Do you think it should be?
America is flawed but much of the bad press it gets is via Cold War proxy conflicts in 3rd party arenas. The big, simple picture is that American imperialism is much much better than communist imperialism.
Now you can go watch Star Wars while you digest your KFC.
I agree with you broadly blindboy but not sure I'm down with the "toxic culture". I think it's a genuinely impressive culture that is governed and administered inconsistently and perhaps toxically.
America seems like it's constantly at war with itself, internally. It maintains the highest ideals (democracy, freedom and equality of opportunity for all blah blah) and there are people within the country constantly shining a light on where the it fails to reach these ideals, which of course happens a lot and very seriously, as you described. Those failures can't be dismissed (because they're huge as you say), but within the country it isn't dismissed I don't think, which is what I mean by the country being at war with itself. There's genuine public debate about how these principles by which they purport to live should be applied. As a result we've all benefited from this aggressive intellectual development in areas of environmentalism, feminism, racial equality and economic development.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that a lot of our advancements in these areas have come from major contributions from American intellectuals (like Emerson, Thoreau, King, Angelou, Chomsky, and many others). We'll never know if these people would have made the same contributions in a different culture but the freedom of thought that comes from an individualist society surely contributed to some of their insight. Especially when the principles are widely trumpeted in a self-congratulatory manner yet inconsistently applied. I could be overstating their importance and understating the importance of earlier philosophers too.
I agree with you though that foreign policy wise, it's a mess. So much hypocrisy and disgraceful meddling in other countries' affairs, in ways that make you believe that history really does repeat itself. I think it's fair to say we can isolate some good they've done but equally (if not more so) the bad, as you point out.
Gents, I am failing to see the relevance of this to the wave pool thread - please excuse my ignorance here.
Benski and BB, yes many 'advancements in these areas have come from major contributions from American intellectuals'. Importantly, many have migrated from other countries and political regimes. At least the 'war with itself' is not based on religion.
Ahh, geez gota stay focused.
Nothing more than an interesting avenue in a meandering conversation as far as I can tell.
Americans tend to be very friendly and open as individuals until you mention their culture or foreign policy. Then, in my experience, they tend to get very upset and defensive. In their eyes, the U.S. is not capable of wrongdoing, which is a very dangerous mindset to have. Hence why people like Noam Chomsky are attacked mercilessly.
Of course this is a generalisation, many people seem to possess a much more balanced perspective especially in the north-east for example New York . Bit of a blue states vs. red states thing...
If you're looking at cultural and military imperialism and consumerism as a lifestyle (just to name a few) then it's not hard to argue that the States has a toxic culture. And guess which country is following right behind, hook, line and sinker.
America is a superpower. They use that power. Sometime for good, sometimes not. Your political bias colours your judgement of which is which.
...and Australians are unimpressed when Americans want to critique us
Time to start a new thread Blob.
Yanks and Aussies = Aussies and kiwis....chip on shoulder inferiority complex
.
No blindboy....the nazis and commies were the most profound threat to world peace....and it was America and friends that defeated them. Now the threat is radical Islamists....and Americans are still dying to keep the peace. I think Vietnam was a stuff up and Iraq was a mistake and oil security is a thing...but Obama's lack of force has made the Middle East even worse.
And here's silly me thinking that the commies were fighting ALONGSIDE America, AGAINST the nazis and were mainly responsible for their defeat.
Ummm....not all commies are Russian....You must be forgetting the Cold War silly. It came after that other war remember....?
Oh, I thought the Cold War included the Russians ? Which commies did the American defeat after the Second World War? I love your subjective truths blob.
You gotta build a bridge Timmy
Which commies did the Americans defeat?
Pick any number of Cold War conflicts. The yanks won a lot of them. Of course there is the big one....the USSR no longer exists right?
...and I can't tell how gratifying it is to me that the concept of subjective truth has made such an impression on you
Agree, not about the pool half empty bit but my experience with Americans, especially within their own country has been nothing but positive.
Benski, not wishing to blow sunshine where it doesn't belong but I'm glad you drop by from time to time.
Ah right on, cheers zen. :-)
Good Article. I remember when snow machines started making snow. Surf in the morning in Southern California and head up to Snow Summit and ski the late afternoon evening session. It was cool to ski regardless, eventhough it was better to ski on natural conditions. It is weird now to think this is the real good man-made waves, but hopefully it will come out positive. In skiing nobody says they are a skier just on man-made snow. In the future if they ski only wavepools we will have to come up with new terms for them. Back in the sixties when surfing was just kicking in they had names for want-a-be's like; Gremmies, Desotos, Hodads, etc. Let's enjoy the ride and see how it comes out. Good for Kelly to help others get stocked on a fun wave!
If Kelly wants to make money just from the wealthy by charging top dollar for time in his wave pool, well I think good on him.
However I think we're naive if we don't understand that that for the magazines, tv and other media as well as manufacturers of surf gear, the aim is for big time mainstream acceptance. Maybe not in the immediate future, but they'll keep aiming for it.
If people want this future for surfing then they clearly have a different relationship with surfing than I do, and also a different relationship with crowds.
Well if Slater is able to generate the discussion as witnessed in this thread, then yes he is a master of mind games and not just the best surfer we have seen. The tangents seen here are pretty creative from US society to wave parks viability. We all wish to surf quality waves. Just look at the lengths we go to get it. I must admit its not about the destination but the journey. Fundamentally, these wave parks are a valid attempt to bring the quality to people and as said above (by Benski) - 'if you've got the time to surf and the physical fitness to do so, by crikey you're in the 1% globally eh. No doubt these guys are the cream of.'
Or do we just keep it secret, isolated, protected and locals only.
I thought it was significant that when Medina performed the full rotation to help decide the Pipeline. If you look at the local, thats what the groms are doing. That the future.
More aerials are probably the future. They don't appeal to a lot of older surfers. I was a bit that way until I was out in the water once with Jack Freestone. When you see big aerials from the water, they are way more impressive, thrilling and relevant to the wave than they ever look on the screen.
But, in terms of extending competitive surfing to a mass audience, aerials don't interest the non-surfing sports public. I have a lot of non-surfing friends. They go 'meh'. They compare them to what they see in aerial skiing and half pipe snowboarding. An unfair comparison perhaps, but surfing aerials look ordinary in comparison. What interests non-surfers are beautiful waves and the moves unique to surfing: like cutbacks, floaters and particularly pretty barrel riding. They get bored quickly though.
agree 100%. but i reckon WSL thinks people want to see airs, theyve changed judging criteria and stuff which has encouraged competitors to give them more of a shot. just look at gabe knocking out fanning with an air AT PIPE! disgrace.
maybe kelly's pool with have some fixed rails for grinds? quidditch rings to shoot goals while surfing? this could start to differentiate the ocean and pool surfers.
@rab…yep, I think WSL reckon people do want to see airs. Probably should not have used Medina's wave since there was not much going, hence they scored a couple of points for it. I think you'll find that the judges define the criteria depending on the break. But the key point is, watch the local groms and this tends to show where we are heading. Hence a good reason why the wave pool may be successful, too early to tell. If I was going give this a go, then who better to kick start it than Slater - the best.
Way off topic people, lets talk about the wave pool.......maybe
1. How much is the overall cost of project?
2. What is the overall cost of each wave to operate(basically How much money does it cost to make each wave) ?
3.Daily operating costs ?
4. Number of possible waves per hour?
5. Insurance costs (alot of people in the world can not swim properly).
6.What is creating the wave? what happens when someone falls off ? moving object underwater?
7. What is raimana's world doing there?
Stu nettle?
With solid answers to those variables I can give you a fair and reasonable (and possibly bankable) valuation on the project.
Trouble is the owners are most probably still trying to work these variables out.
Obviously good questions for the developers, but does not really matter to us. As we have now found out, this was an R&D site or wave, so I'm sure there is more work to be done. Also whats relevant to the US may / may not be relevant for here or elsewhere, say Europe. I reckon what we should discuss, is how much would you pay for a wave like what Slater rode. My two cents worth is that I reckon Aus surfers would not pay much. I would guess a wave pool would have to be part of something else e.g. Wet n Wild. Then you might pay $s for a day out. Or a season pass.
Business plan, strategies for success. Anyone with a minute Business understanding need these facts before even breaking ground.
I am actually pretty sure even Robert would have run the numbers?
It seems it doesn't matter to you tony, you don't actually have to answer for everyone else though.
Most projects that take ten years, involve space travel. You are really hedging your bets on future markets. Wouldn't you think ?
Hmmm...what's your drift ? Yes, I'm sure the owners have run thru their plan but I'm not sure why that is relevant to you or I.
Space travel - I thought we are talking about possible wave pools ?
Being a mere mortal, I still catch a bus to my business and not a space ship. ten years is a long time but I doubt whether Slater will wait that long.
Ten years is a long time to be in start up mode. Robert started the ks wave co in 2005.
That's a long time to be running a business that doesn't make money. Could you imagine going to work for ten years and not making any money? Employing five specialized engineers, an accountant, the draftsperson. The construction company (because engineers don't get dirty). The power bills. The insurance liability.There is a security guard constantly at the project.
another point to note is where are they going to build, What is going to be his demographic, people in the mid west don't surf (and if they do decide to try they will want slow waves to learn on) , and its twenty below freezing right now . That's half the year the pool has to be drained......
I am confused/concerned about the viability of the project.
All the best to him though, it was amazing to watch the creation online.
When you start a business/ you need a business plan.Business 101
IMO this one is just the test site built where they could find a cheap and out of the way spot. As luck would have it there was a lake already.
They have proved they can make a wave, bet dollars to donuts they are working on how to make it a viable business, with the aim to roll out a bunch of them around major surfing centers.
Apart from power consumption and wave rate, the cost of the land will be key to the economics.
Can anyone tell how long that pond is from the maps?
I've estimated it at 600-650 m long and about 50m wide. Projecting those dimensions onto a working block I rounded up to 800m and out to 100m (to include parking, grandstands, and the obligatory merchandise shops etc) which is 80,000 square metres or just shy of 20 acress. It's an odd shaped block too (very long and skinny), plus it needs to be relatively level.
Reckon if you're gonna put something like that in the Sydney basin it'll be 1.5 hours or more from the coast.
Might be even bigger, once they include a lot of stuff to quickly reduce water turbulence from each wave.
Any difference in the time turbulence takes to settle in fresh water /saltwater ? probably not?
or could you could put one on a site in between a couple of large(ish) coastal cities, near the highway, on really cheap land, that surfers drive past 365/24/7, with a regional town nearby.
...so at that length, if the wave is broken into sections you can have multiple paying riders on the one wave taking a 100m ride each.
Another query. Is it salt or fresh water?. I'd think they are different to surf on and so there is the possibility of varying the water composition to vary the feel.
So why do you need to know the business plan ? Yes, your right it is assumed the company owners / investors have done one but unless you plan to invest, I can't see why you need to know what the plan is.
In fact, I would be surprised if anything would be released unless investors would be needed.
As mentioned it seems to be an R&D site anyway.
I would not invest in this project,
My average surf costs 4 dollars(probably six if you factor reg + insurance).In transit costs.
How much for
An hour?
A Day pass?
Weekly?
Monthly?
Yearly?
I just heard Kelly is going to build wave pools in places where no-one has to pay , and that he will use this technology to bring peace love and happiness ( which we all witness here on a daily basis) to the world by putting them only in 3 rd world countries to teach kids about the joysof surfing and self enlightment!
kicking USA arse on the WCT so there's no complex there.
though I think this wave-pool could be a secret ploy funded by the US government to produce better surfers and hence regain domination of world oil supplies. there is clearly a undisputed link.
I feel there could be link to aliens and UFO's somewhere in here too....
So why do some Aussies love to hate America?
Oh yeah.....Kelly is rich....I hate them 1%ers
Kelly is an environmental vandal....hate them too
Kelly represents a toxic culture.....the one I watch, eat and read 24/7
....that last phrase explains a lot blob. You should try varying your diet!
Irony fail
.....cause Starbucks coffee was crap.
You actually don't need much land at all to build this, you need water, if you could have this located in a protected bay for example you could probably find ways to over come turbulence using surrounding water, you also then don't have to worry to much about looking after water quality like a pool as can naturally let it flush.
Obviously salt water would probably mean higher maintenance.
Unless you put it in a tropical lagoon.
As far as a business plan goes it is worth remembering that the US has the lowest percentage of passport holders of any developed country. That means a huge potential market amongst those surfers who just can't bring themselves to leave the good old USA.
Anyone know where I can get a hold of some pure liquid zeolite ?
You see wave Pool, I see fish pond.
Can it double as a fish farm / aquaculture ? Cos if you really wanna make some bucks in the Yoonited States then you need to somehow bypass enviro-laws and intro Barramundi. Stocked lake type fishing . Our Bazzamundii would blow the titts off their Bass tournaments , now that's where the real buck's are in Yankyland.
Sid can guarantee 10X the prize $$ prolly more , for a Bazzamundii Tourno in Kells wavepool than what they can for a surfy Tourno. Hmmmm.
Anyone interested in a Bazzamundii smuggling black Op .?