Stu, the point is simple: respect them.

Having now worked with white sharks for some time and being an active surfer,I have actually found it easier going for a surf..These critters are not mindless machines,nor are they interested in humans,like other apex predators,they are generally curious to begin with and in fact,the majority of interactions are no more than a passing glance.,Like any wild animal,they are unpredictable and deserve to be treated with respect and caution.

Jeez, you'd be a brave man to say a whiteshark is not interested in humans considering the record of attacks in SA.

I say that with all due respect and considering the horrendous consequences of getting bitten.

Surely we can admit this animal occassionally is triggered into an attack response by the presence of a human being.

Locals surf early at Caves - Ronnie included.

Dawn sessions at caves its certainly on your mind. Ronnie was/is almost always the first local out, often paddling across the channel from castles.

I had reservations about surfing early, but this didn't last long.

Yes they do Johpg, and so did I. It was the least crowded but the day after I left a big whitey went through the lineup and no one surfed for the next few days.

It's a case of being smart, and if you get that eerie feeling at a secluded break, it's probably in your best interest to exit the water.

A lot of people get bumped over there weekly :o

Thanks freeride for your comments,I understand and appreciate your thoughts but,whitesharks dont seek out,or categorise their prey.Anything mid water and surface is ripe for investigation,or as you say,if they are in hunting mode,trigger an attack response.We have observed the same behaviour on both larger fish and mammal species.
As I mentioned previously,the coastal waterways of the Eyre peninsula support a huge and diverse range of fish species that travel underwater highways east/west and west/east.Unfortunately,humans also dive,surf and swim in these areas,so the chances of interaction with these critters is hightened.
Bear in mind as well,there are more people on and in the water than in the past.

I was first on the beach at Cactus one morn'. Caves was out of my league and I knew the locals would be out soon. Moose was in the corner collecting Abs.
I dicided that Outside Castles was the go. Moose said " if you change your mind what ever you do don't paddle across the channel to Caves come in and walk around".
I listen to legends.
Outside Castles to myself I never felt comfortable, constantly turning and looking around as if I was being checked out, but the waves were gr8. I snapped my board on the 7th wave and had to swim in. I remember just telling myself "keep looking at the shore and keep swimming. If it happens, it happens" I guess you call this "living with Sharks"
For me surfing Cactus area is not a heavy experience its more a constant pressure accros the shoulders that is only relieved for those few moments of riding it's perfect waves.

When caves is 5ft+ and the rip is swiftly pulling you to the inside peak which is tightly guarded by some tough and angry looking desert-dwelling locals, I am more scared of those guys than the sharks...

Unfortunately for Phil Horley, he suvived the shark attack but was killed in a car accident. I lived on the Yorke Peninsula for many years and always surfed the dawnie, most often by myself. Foolish behaviour maybe, but I often scored good waves and new the risks. At least, without being disrespectful to our lost brothers and their families, you won't be forgotten. Front page and a life history. Better than page 32 of the paper and a small insert saying you were victim number 62 on the road toll.

These critters are not mindless machines.

True enough whiteshark, and maybe reason to fear them more. Possibly the scariest animal on the planet, and you're in their domain.

The idea that we aren't part of their diet is fanciful speculation. Fact is that we aren't there in the water in enough numbers to become part of their diet, doesn't mean they won't wash you down with a light chianti.

Respect - FMD. Has nothing to do with it. Whether you respect them or not will not protect you.

I do subscribe to the theory that you should be aware of the 'vibe' in the water. It's a fair theory that evolution may have provided us with a sense beyond the physical senses to be aware of danger. If the spidy senses are tingling, get out of the water. There may be something in it.

I've been buzzed twice in the last 5 years on the West Coast - year before last at Sheringa and 2 years before that at Cactus. Both were mid morning after 2hrs in the water already. Not sure I subscribe to the theory that dawn and dusk are the worst times - perhaps they are but not in my experience. To me it seems more like a case of if your numbers up.....

Not sure why you're so indignant about giving sharks respect batfink. It sounds like we're talking about the same thing. I know what sharks are capable of. I know that they don't think like humans, and I know we will never understand why they attack. All these factors I know and if I get the vibe, as you say, then I get out of the water.

Respect for sharks or respect for your own instincts sharpened from knowledge. Same thing.

I just thought it a little strange, that's all.

Fear 'em is a reasonable response. Not 'get a spear and kill them' fear, just 'get out of the effin way' fear.

They are beasts of the sea, with DNA maybe millions of years old.

The numbers of Whites has greatly increased since Sharkbaits days.Less fishing quoter has reduced the number of whites caught in nets and the 12 year kill ban has got numbers on the increase.

The guys I surf with down there keep an eye on bird behaviour and keep sessions short.
Or better still tow.

There is apparantley a very large increase in seal and tuna numbers in that area, especially this year, and I believe that researchers are working to officially validate that. This can only naturally lead to more white sharks in that area. Its probably part of a natural cycle of population and migratory fluctuations. There has certainly been a lot of talk about them over there over the last few months. Unfortunatley our selfish desire to surf brings us into their realm and potential for interaction can therefore not be avoided. A person was fatally attacked after falling while being towed on a surfboard behind a boat near Adelaide so I think towing may not reduce the risk.

I think you will find that poor kid was left out the back floating around for 15 min while his mates went to the beach to drop someone off.

He was not towing as we know it.

Jeez, scratch towing-in in SA then.

You blokes are welcome to it.

When I last surfed Elliston the blokes said they had never seen whitey there.
That was about 2 months before the kid got chomped there.

Sure felt sharky to me.

Bushwalkers accept the fact that they may be bitten by a deadly snake. It goes with the territory. Most take every precaucion. And if soemone does die via a snake bite, you don't have every he man and his mates in 4wds butchering snakes in an ego driven frenzy. "I've got the killer!"
Mountain climbers and downhill skiers accept the fact that avalanches occur. It goes with the territory Most take every precaucion. If someone dies, no one dynamites the mountain in an act of retaliation.
Surfers/divers accept the fact that they may get taken by a shark. It goes with the territory. Most take every precaution. But when a surfer/diver IS taken, the hysteria surrounding the event is beyond belief. Nothing like an "eaten alive story" to boost ratings or sell copy. Death by a snake bite just doesn't cut the mustard.
If you can't stomach the thought that there is a remote chance of being part of the food chain, then take up lawn bowls, or go and brag about yourself on facebook .
Quite simple , really

Is there any reason why you don't buy a sharkshield? Surely you would feel safer if you one of these on your boards. They only cost 600 buks approx. Might give you piece of mind as you paddle out. Not sure if it would work if a white really wanted to eat you and jumped at you from beyond 5 metres. They are advertising them on tv here in Hobart!

Stop making the sharks human: they are "mindless critters", they are primitive hunting machines which have no fore or even mid brains. In the case of large whites and tigers they hunt mammals (dolphins, seals etc). If we are in the water and they are hungry or stimulated they will eat us, it's as simple as that: we are food!

So do we do anything????? Devices like shark shield may work, was that ab diver wearing one ??? I know a guy who dives for abs and he soaks his wetties in soap before diving and has a coupla soaps on strings around him so it gets in the water, reckons the sharkies hate it in their gills.

The more sharks there are (and yes numbers of GW in WA/SA/Tas esp have risen sharply) the more chance to get eaten. As shark attacks increase (and they will) we will get to a point of either having some effective attack prevention or we will cull them. My guess is that we will accept a few attacks per year but once we get into the one per month or so attitudes will change!

PS: numbers of attacks are deliberately under reported, many people go missing in the surf are listed as "missing presumed drowned" but are probably shark attacks. Perfect examples are the two body boarders at Ballina and Brunswick.

PPS: And yes actually we do dynamite mountains, it is common practice throughout Europe and the US to prevent avalanches.

Sharkshields are like driving in your car with a crash helmet on! It might help you one day but its a pain in the arse 99% of the time. I went to cactus a few months back and my mate took one. Barely had room for my gear once he put his generator in the car! Some breaks the locals dont like people wearing them too. Some people think they signal the shield produces attracts the sharks in, then repels them from the wearer leaving other surfers vulnerable!

I have the same concerns about the Shark-shields as well yorkessurfer.

Here's my comments from the aritcle on Peter Clarkson..

"Just in regards to the shark-shields..

From what I can gather, they send out an electronic signal surrounding the person wearing it and when sharks become too close they are repelled by this electronic field.

This sounds like a valuable piece of equipment for divers and people going down solo while working in the coean, but I'm not so sure about it regarding surfing...

Sharks have an extra electrical sense, and I would think that if a surfer was wearing one of these at a surf break, that a nearby shark would be quite inquisitive on the signal that the shark-shield is sending out.

Could this possibly attract sharks to an area they would of otherwise avoided? Sure the surfer wearing the shield would be protected if the shark becomes close, but what about all the vulnerable surfers around them. Are they put in more danger?

Just a thought."

http://www.swellnet.com.au/news/2097-diver-killed-by-sharks-in-south-aus...

I reckon we need a big fucken cull. Get rid of 'em. I have seen 4 in the last week in a 50km radius. You dickheads think there is fuck all of them. Let me tell ya there's heaps. Stop those veiwing cages as well they are the problem. The sharks now associate humans with food because of the calypso star. It's fucking disgusting. They are not endangered. If their numbers were that few to be endangered why are we seeing soo many of the useless fucks. I need a good set of jaws for my wall. Did you hear they got the one that ate Jevon?

i've worked and surfed with sharks in sa most of my life,
i know a lot of ab divers, tuna farm divers and so forth and think its worth bringin this to the convo,
from my experience pointers are intelligent hunters and you would be an absolute fool to say otherwize,
with every other animal you feed and entice with food you have them returning for more, they learn!
think about it - wedge tailed eagle- an awesome hunter-road kill they'll be there
dolphins-prawn trawling they're there everytime ya bring up the net to get the bycatch as it goes over the side.

okay now lets look at shark cage diving interaction, could it have an impact?

what do you think?

I heard some sharks were killed after those attacks. You need to remember its a huge fine if you are caught catching a white so no one would try and bring one in. It was kept quiet and you couldnt be sure that you had the right one without a "Jaws" style autopsy. .303 to the head and the evidence sinks to the bottom.

Whitetag and CSIRO are heading out to the Neptune Islands of SA in April for more white shark research...Given the feedback we are receiving from Ab divers and surfers,the eyes and ears on the water,it definitely seems to have been a season of intense shark activity off the Eyre peninsula...We have no idea why but,the upwellings may be having an effect as a result of the extraordinary number of easterlies and south easterlies this season..May be bringing in more baitfish,..???Would love to have more feedback from the guys up and down the coast,are you seeing an increase in other species.?
There has been an unusually high number of white sharks recorded at the Neptunes this summer-autumn and we are thinking perhaps the Neptunes could be our reference as to shark activity along the SA coast.If so,we may in fact have an opportunity to share the results with Ab divers and surfers,in order to minimise interaction..Always looking for feedback from you guys in the water..

This is a fair distance from you whiteshark, but I can only comment on what I've seen up here around the GBR. It's probably no use to you as I cant say numbers have increased but in the last 12 months have seen two on the southern GBR feeding on a dead whale and the tigers moved away whenever they came in for a chew. It is well known they follow the whales up the coast for the season. The furthest north I've seen them is in the Coral Sea 100nm NE of Cooktown, again chewing on a whale.
When I was a young fella, off Sydneys NB's, we used to see a few regularly and one monster we called Barney was spotted several times quite close to shore (2 nm).
Port Stevens and Stockton Beach were always hot spots too.

I think CSIRO should be able to confirm a very very large increase in tuna numbers in the bight and surrounds this year. Contacts there indicate a large increase in seal numbers too. Its a risky time to be surfing there by all accounts. As many white sharks as possible should be acoustic tagged so that a personal device can be developed to indicate if they are close by. Would reduce the threat to some degree.

interested to know what vessel you do your research off of "whiteshark"
and how you interact with the sharks,
do you berley?

Whiteshark, are you using satelite pop-up tags? I know they are bloody expensive, but the data retrieved from them are incredible if they stay in long enough.

Let's just say the hunt was pretty aggressive and body parts & wetsuit were found. How do the researchers attract their research? Pretty bloody lucky to have 8-10 endangered white sharks show up out of the blue isn't it? They should by a lotto ticket with that result. Sharks aren't that smart. Blood+dead animal+stupid human=white shark. Now they associate humans with feeding. Do these researchers actually Know what they are doing?...answer....NO!!All they want is a front page on National Geo.

I'd back a white shark to make it through high school before you barley... Or maybe a head to head IQ test? That would definitely make the cover of Nat Geo when the shark won...

Just because there is strong anecdotal evidence to suggest that there are more individuals around does not prove a massive increase in population size. Of course the population would have increased since they were placed under protection. But no-one knows exactly what the population is currently. No-one knows exactly what the population ever has been at any point with or without protection. It is nearly impossible to accurately measure such data without a truly massive and soundly designed sampling effort. It can only be estimated. The current population may or may not be greater than whatever 'normal/natural' is. Without knowing what it should be or being able to compare good data we cannot it cannot be known. Whiteshark, surely you would have the best available comparative data of population size (and age/size/maturity means etc) estimates and what may or not be considered 'healthy' pop size?

And anyway barley, by your definition, the pop size is only too large for you when you start to get scared because you see them more often, and when people get attacked. An attack is a tragic occurrence, as is any accidental/unexpected loss of human life, but a few people dying every year, hell, even 10-20 or more people dying every year (if that ever came to pass) is in no way 'unhealthy' for the environment. As far as nature is concerned, the pop size is only too large if it is causing imbalances up and down the food chain. Is there any evidence of other populations being dangerously affected by increased white shark activity? Whiteshark? Are the Tuna and seal populations dangerously low due to increased white shark predation? If so is there any knock on effect? I doubt it. Nature tells us when things are out of balance. If you work and play in the sea then you take the risk. If the risk becomes to high then you either find a way to mediate it back to a reasonable level or find something else to do. We don't own the sea or the creatures within it and it should not be our choice to play god (even though we repeatedly do) with life just to suit our 'needs'. Barley, your ignorant, short-sighted, self-obsessed and human-centric opinions are exactly why this world is taking the shortcut to oblivion. It is the opinions of people like you that the media use to beat up every shark attack story and to perpetuate the public myth that sharks are mindless killers getting out of control. It is the same BS every year regardless of the reality. Actually look at the historical statistics on attacks. Even if under-reported, you are so far wrong it is laughable.

If the data backs up the anecdotal evidence to say there is more food in town then that would be a much stronger argument for why there is more activity this year. If they are more active then you are seeing them more often. It does not necessarily mean that there is anymore whites than last year or the year before.

The issue of cage diving and baiting potentially reinforcing an association of humans with food? This is entirely plausible. I'm pretty sure that is has already been and is still being looked at in order to more safely regulate the industry. 'whiteshark' probably knows the ins and outs of that subject?

Thanks for the essay grug, I'll make sure to hand it to the professor and put my name on it. Should get good marks. Maybe you should just stick to your taxpayer funded lifetime at uni because the fact is that these animals do associate humans whith getting a free feed all for the almighty dollar. Haven't you seen footage of people patting these things on the nose and shit. It was previously thought that they would only take an interest in us for mistaken seeals. Who cares if they go missing. Wouldn't the world be a better place without them. Do they really do anything if they are that low in numbers. Isure would feel better. Think of all the new spots that could be surfed in much greater safety.

Jeez Barley, by those comments you have absolutely no grasp or concept on the implications of removing or decreasing an apex preditor from the food chain. I am assuming you think that everything in the ocean will benefit, in particular yourself for your own selfish gain. You really have no idea what would happen, or what the flow on affects will be, way after you have departed your time here. Quite a sad attitude really.

Not sad, but perfectly understandable if you don't comprehend the whole situation.

It will be interesting to see when Whiteshark has to say.

Anecdotally GWS numbers and sightings (as well as bumpings and other encounters) have been increasing steadily in this area (NENSW) over the last few years.
Spring, as the humpbacks and their calves are heading back south, seems to be the worst time.

Was it Paul Burt who stood on top of a whale carcass and filmed the sharks feeding a few years ago?

Thanks guys for all your feedback,this is exactly the type of open converstion we are chasing.There was a question raised earlier by blackfeet,yes,we do use limited amounts of berley when working with whitesharks,in order to attract them to our work vessel.It is a slurry of entirely minced fish and we use this with a tuna oil drip...We have done trials and berley has no other effect than to raise a sharks awareness,they are either interested or not interested.If there is no food source for them at the end,they dont tend to stick around.Very similar to the behaviour of a dog in actual fact and yes,they can be taught.
What I can also tell you about these creatures is,they store information in their brain on areas that have been kind to them and as a result the same shark will return to a hunting ground on a seasonal basis.In fact,we tagged a whiteshark at the Neptunes back in 2000 and it stuck around the from early Sep- Nov that year and then disappeared off our listening station register.The same shark turned up the following year within a day to the same location and did so for the next two years before we lost track of it.In its first year,it swam through Victorian waters calling in at each of the seal colonies on its way to way the area off Rokhampton..They store information of areas that have been kind to them,a blueprint if you like and their hunting strategy varies according to the prey they are chasing.When it is fish and rays,they tend to operate on the bottom,seals and other mammals,mid to upper levels of the water column...Plus they are daytime feeders when preying on seals.
In response to another question,most recently we have been focusing on using satellite tags and acoustic tags.Satellite tags for identifying movement patterns and pathways..Which we apply to the sharks dorsal fin.Acoustic tags we use to identify behaviour.On the larger white sharks we have been applying these by hawaiian sling from the vessel and attaching them directly behind the dorsal fin.On the juvenile whites we have recently started to fit these internally into the sharks stomach cavity...I can discuss this further in a separate forum.
Anyway,this is all great feedback guys,thanks and keep writing in..You may or not be aware but, we too are surfers and divers associated with this research and my old friend Wayne Lynch is right in the thick of it..I am always interested to hear comments from the Shmuckers out west,these guys are the daily eyes and ears on the water and their feedback is invaluable.

EVo62 - Paul Williamson walked on that dead whale off Cape Jervis, he was a tuna farm diver in a previous life. Barley - tell us mate what happened to the wetsuit and body parts found in that shark?

How is the West Australian proximity warning system going where acoustic tagged sharks trigger a device which sends a message to authorities? Surely this could be developed further.

I don't go to Uni anymore Barley, but it would be nice to live there forever on your hard earned taxpayer dollar. Then I could continue to ruminate over vague, abstract and obscure ideological concepts such as 'the ecological importance of apex predators in the food chain' and 'conservation of natural systems for the longtime survival of mankind on planet earth'. Wow! Radical dude, far out! Extreme! Pass me the bucket bong and the LSD cause this is just CRAAAZZYY BRO!

Reread your comments. You sound like a Viking.

I never said that they didn't learn, or that they could not inadvertently learn/be trained to associate humans with food due to various stimuli arising from the methods of companies such as the cage diving ventures. So are you now saying that they_are_intelligent, but that there are too many of them? There may well be too many of them. Like I said, no-one really knows what a normal population size/density is. Only studying their impact on the ecological/biological health and diversity of the ocean can tells us if there are too many. We have no inherent right to fuck with nature for our own comfort/gain. Humans have relentlessly applied this attitude for centuries and look where we are now? Here you are spouting the same short sighted attitude with complete ignorance of facts. Tear your focus away from the short term and your own safety for one second and look at the bigger picture.

You accuse scientists of knowing fuck all and thinking there are not many whites. Who said that here? Who is still sating that in the scientific literature? I think the white tag guys know how many there are better than you. And I doubt very much that they still believe them to be critically endangered. You have a knowledge and opportunity due to where I am assuming you live and what I am assuming you do to gain important anecdotal evidence. That is vital, but it can only help to fill out a wider picture which can only ever be even remotely reliable with sound scientific data over many years.

I respect your knowledge for what it is Barley, you see things many scientists do not. It is the conclusions that knowledge is bringing you to that is the problem. Realise the limitations of what you see and know and look beyond what is in front of you.

Barley was served

Interesting discussion - I have spent a lot of time in my life surfing and diving the south coast & lower west coast. You guys surfing there all the time, hats off “you got big kahunas”. I love surfing the whole area even done some sketchy surfs between Thistle & Hopkins & even once the bombi at North Neptune & a number of the islands into the bight. I always have my head screwed on and see most shadows even when they ain’t there. These animals are the great predators of the area and are very switched on. They are not mindless killing machines they are calculated and clam at what they do. They are also way inquisitive so that makes them twice as scary.

hey i just posted this on swellnets fb page and they sujested i post it on here so i have just copied and pasted it on to here.
hey guys wondering if you know anything about the psychology of a shark? i have been surfing for about 15 years and have seen plenty of sharks but untill this weekend i never had an encounter like this! i had a shark breech infront of me and just kinda semi circled me like it was sussing me out. it was no more than 5 meteres away from... me and was just under the surface of the water! wasnt a massive shark but needless to say i was shitting myself!! i didnt know whether to remain still or what but i had to start paddling in because i was to far out to catch a wave, as i paddled in it thrashed around for a second but remained about 5 meteres away from me. thank fuck a set come and i was out of there! it was in nth NSW, wouldnt have a clue what type of shark it was, but i reckon it was probably 1.5 - 2 metres long. do you know wtf the shark might have been thinking!?!?

Hey Sharky - how about you read the article above particularly what Ronnie Gates said about the Vicco lad bragging about where and when he surfed on the West Coast. I think you fall into that category. How can you have your head screwed on surfing places like North Neptune? You can't see shadows at the break between Hopkins and Thistle mate cos the water is always black out there when you look down.

I've heard a few stories over the years about the big left out off North Neptune.. couldn't imagine actually jumping off the side of a boat to surf it though! Gotta be the sharkiest place in the whole country.

Dont know that Ive seen a big left out at North Neptune when we have been working there but,I have definitely seen a nice right hander wrapping around the southern point and into the bay...Needless to say an empty lineup.!!!

Hmm, maybe it was South Neptune (t'was many years ago) - but by all accounts it was an incredible sight at 20ft+. I can only imagine the size it must reach out there sometimes.

Nth Neptune has a bombie that pumps just offshore from the island. You can see it on a big swell if you are anchored at the right hander in the bay. It would be an epic tow-in bombie. Have seen it on a 5m swell. I have a mobile phone pic of it somewhere will try to find it. There should be no problem discussing details of this wave it will remain uncrowded.

That's the one sunbay76. Can't ever see this place getting crowded at all (especially after what happened to Douglas Chesser in '98).

Thermalben - I thought Doug's name was Chesher, I used to surf with him when I lived in Lincoln. Doug was working on a crayboat in 98 and pulled into the Neptunes to anchor for the afternoon. He jumped over the side in shallow water to catch a feed of abalone and was fatally mauled by a white shark almost immediately. I've seen photos of his body on the slab, looked like his legs and arms were hit with an axe and meat cleaver, he would have died within seconds with those horrific injuries. Ab diver Neil Williams was attacked down there, he stuffed the bag of abs into the sharks mouth to save himself. Another ab diver and friend Greg Pickering had a 16 footer swim over his back down there, they took off to find another spot and saw another great white rocket out of the water and take a fur seal off the rocks - they went home after that! We had 6 whites around Calypso star last time I went filming down there, first one came up in 10 minutes. If you're keen to surf down there make sure you have your will in order.

Could be Chesher - I just sourced the name from an archived file on the web (I didn't know Doug personally). I remember the news articles at the time, saying how physically close he was to the island at the time. Some eerie parallels with most West Coast surf spots that certainly rings home for SA surfers - it can happen just about anywhere.

Frightening stories of yours though.. I honestly don't know how the ab divers get back in the water after experiencing something like that.

Mate I would never do it again was in the mid 90's just a rush of blood. I was a fool

My point was these animals are not mindless killing machines. Times you can just get a glance or a bump and you are OK. Other times they will just go past other times your cactus.

They plan their attacks and do it in a way that suits them best. Most times they will just have a look and be gone but that can also be a strategy and they can come back from a different angle. They (white sharks) are truly magnificent animals and I can't get enough of them. Been working with them professionally for 30 years plus along with other species and hope to for another 30 years.

Sharky - I have to agree with you, watching white sharks from a cage or boat is amazing stuff indeed and its easy to become addicted to it. You were probably ok surfing down there in the mid 90's as the shark numbers were not as great then as they are now. Or maybe like me luck was on your side. Peter Clarkson was always pushing the envelope where he dived, he would have seen and been stalked by more white sharks underwater than I have had hot dinners but sadly his luck finally ran out. RIP Peter - thanks for showing us some special spots down the passage all those years ago.

Nat there are many out of the way spots down there but that doesn't mean they should be made public (mum's the word) the sharks help keep the punters away (smile). The only reason I brought up the spots I did was, I was new to the discussion and I wanted to establish some level of area knowledge. Not living in the South all the time, I could have been taken as a smuck from the East Coast (which I am I guess) who didn't know the area (as I said you South guys have big kahunas ). My intent was not to brag like the guy in the article (I may not have did it well) but to give some comment in favour of the shark. After working with these guys in locations all over the world (sorry wasn't bragging again) for 30 years plus, I think I may have some educational comment as both a surfer and a shark biologist. Any comments I make from now on, I hope I don't offend, but then again go your hardest bro
By the way I think it was the South point of the bay off the seal colony at South Neptune Peter ( RIP) Got nailed ? To the left of where the wharf was, before it was pulled down. (nat parks DEHA are fucking up South Neptune, not looking after the light house buildings etc, they should be under the control of National Trust & not let them fall apart it’s a crime)
Re shark numbers it goes in cycles just because there are more sightings doesn’t mean there are more actual White Sharks in global population. I have been down there for weeks on end with no sharks and then all of a sudden, sharks. I remember in some early tracking pinger study;s we did we had a shark tagged and we could hear it going past the bay, for days and weeks on and off, but it would not show itself. Finally after a long period it showed again it was there but just not interested.
We see numbers increase and decrease not only weekly but yearly and much longer. This also happens in US locations, NZ, etc etc even in South Africa. These animals don’t live full time in small areas, as the area usually can’t support their food needs, especially in South Australia. We have tagged sharks in SA and had a tag back from the shark when it was in NZ. Another was tagged in South Africa and it popped up of WA. A number now have been tagged in Mexico and they have popped off close to Hawaii. Same with Tigers I have tagged sharks off Oahu and have tracked them to Midway aprox 1200 miles away, then back to Maui then back to Oahu to arrive at yearly feeding events off each location.
Hope this helps the discussion

Nat said) I thought Doug's name was Chesher

Sorry I ment Doug at Neptune attack not Peter (too much shit in my head)

Sharky - OK mate you're forgiven. You're correct, we still like to maintain a bit of anonymity for some of the more remote sites. Your research is very interesting and its good that the findings are supported by some science. The Stockton Beach white shark nursery was another fascinating discovery for white shark research. A couple of obvious things have occurred which has had an impact on shark numbers. First was the introduction of protection which reduced the overall fishing impact, although some are still accidentally taken or deliberately taken but not publicised. The other impact has been the development of the tuna cage industry at Port Lincoln and up into the northern Spencer Gulf. I remember the tuna industry propaganda in the early 1990's saying that fish farming will not attract sharks. Documentaries such as "Tuna Cowboys" et al clearly show the attraction sharks have for tuna farming. You can often see tuna morts floating back towards Boston Island when you go fishing out there. Similar population dynamics occurred in Northen Australia when crocodiles were protected. Buffalo numbers have again increased in the NT following the TB eradication program and camels are flourishing in the outback. If you leave animals alone and their environment is right, they will multiply.

Well informed info Nat but I would fill you in some day on other developments (poss Grand Tasman but not as good as when Matt and Fran ran it). I nearly burned the bar down one night many years back with a whole pile of Zambucca ha ha shortly after that Mat did the front remodel ha ha '

Getting back to the article Howard Rodd is the guy I feel for in this. I met him and Danny (I think that was his name )back in 2000 or 1999. Danny would not go in the water, but was happy to shuck on the boat. He told me at a BBQ he feared getting hit by a white, so he stayed in the boat. Then that capsize and he was in the water. As I was told after the accident, Howard swam for help and when they got back to the upturned boat, Danny was gone and there was some evidence his life jacket had been ripped. To have to go through all that, and then for him to be on the boat when Peter Got hit ! is just tooo much to think of. Howard and his wife struck me as being very nice and down to earth people. I feel for him !!!!

I am in favour of looking after our environment and that also means top order predators. Sure I surf also and am happy to share the ocean with them ( I also drive a Kombi Van ha ha). If I go that way, it's a dam sight better than lying in a hospital bed with cancer or something. Not in a hurry for either though, too many places still to surf. All this though doesn't lessen the pain people like Howard , The parents of Jevan Wright and others, have to go through every day, mourning the loss of a loved one. (RIP)
By the way Stockton isn’t a nursery area, it’s more a juvenile and sub adult hang area, good food , good water, warm water etc etc. Actually the latest study’s actually put Pacific Palms (Forster to Port Stevens greater area) more the epicentre of the juvenile hang out Crib in NSW. Dam fine surf break there also ha ha. Every time I surf there I chuckle about, if the other surfers there only knew, mind you I have told a few, but they don’t if to take me seriously or not ha ha. Similar places exist in VIC and likely WA. These areas are not sick with white shark numbers, but more juvies are found there than any other places on the coast. Stockton Got it’s name because it’s remote and some beach fishermen by chance found out they could catch smaller Whites there in the break line, they saw a chance to get on Chanel 9 with it.
Now before any one talks this ain’t a LOVE in, so don’t agree with me any more ! just bag me out and fuck off ha ha

Hey Sharky, as I mentioned earlier I have seen many juveniles in the Port Stevens to Stockton area. But mixed in are some monsters. During a Game Fishing Tournament back in the early 90's I was a skipper on one boat and was close to where another was hooked up to a monster white. We moved over for a look and when we got close the white lifted its head out of the water right at the transom. As it turns out, they were hooked up to a whaler of about 150kg and it was jammed tail first in the whites throat. When the white opened its mouth you could see the head of the whaler. There is a photo of this around quite a few shops and mags years ago. It was qite an impressive sight. Eventually the white regurgitated the whaler and swam off, but I still vividly remember the enormous size of it knowing full well we surfed a lot of areas close by.

So was it a white which chomped the girl the other day?

I've seen footage of massive Tigers around the Land Based Game spots near Port Stephens.

Yeah Steve, on the news they are saying it was a white.

I used to target tag & release marlin but occasionally would go sharks. Most of the big tigers (500+kg) would be caught off the shelf but some guys would catch some huge sharks (tigers, whites and hammers) quite close in. It was mostly proportional to where all the bait and type of bait was hanging out. Each season was different depending on the currents.

The biggest white I have personnally seen was off Long Reef in Sydney. He was so big and old he/she had some barnicles on its body which I didn't think was possible!

I've seen huge tigers in shallow water off the Abroholos wet-lining for Snapper. They follow the cray-boats.

My guess is you don't hear as much about Tiger shark attacks because they just eat people.

Yeah , similar out at Flinders Reef about 200nm East of Cairns/Townsville. Went for a walk around the sand cay (1/2 size footy field) and 3 huge tigers circling in waist deep water waiting for the turtles, Some parts of turtles washed up on the cay.

I agree, not much reported on attacks from tigers because I think they leave little remains.

Steve, on a totaly different subject, hows your injury?

Feels like someone has taken an axe to the bottom of my hoof.

Gunna take some 80grit to those fins before I surf 'em again.

Sounds like a few of you guys are Qualfied biologists studying GWS and I wonder If you've spoken with any of the retired shark fishermen on SA's west coast. A few of these blokes have good memories of what things were like in the pioneering days of fishing on the west coast and things that happened that altered the shark poulation in these waters. I started tuna fishing in 1983 out of Lincoln and did every season as engineer on several vessels until 1993. In those days there was a completly different attitude towards sharks and I tried very hard to catch one. We spent months on end travelling up and down SA's west coast, Anchouring behind all the remote islands with hundreds of tons of tuna and blood at our disposal and in all that time only ever saw 5 pointers. Some of these encounters were something I'll never forget if anyone is interested. I beleive shark populations were hammered hard in the early days and now with changes to fishing practices and legal protection they're making a big comeback. Sure, its easy to say "Don't surf if you don't like the risks" but try explaining that to a 13 yo son whose just discovered the delights of surfing and he's watched his dad chucking a surfboard in the car since he was born.

Unreal stuff gwendy - would love to hear more of your stories. Keep 'em coming!

Thanks thermalben for the interest, there's a lot of discussion on various watersport forums at the moment about sharks, and its bringing back some intence memories.

My first contact with a big pointer was in '84 when tuna fishing on a 70ft wooden "pole" boat called "Grozdana A". We'd been baiting all night at Nyts reef and having a lot of trouble with seals scaring the ball of pilchards under the light. we finally caught it and were still scooping it into the tanks when daylight came. something spooked the seals and they all scooted across the surface flat out and up on the rocks probably 100 metres away. Just as they left the water a huge pointer lunged out of the water and up onto the rocks narrowly missing one with its mouth. It rolled sideways back into the sea and a couple of minutes later had another go. The seals sat just out of range of the snapping jaws. The cook said to me,"they know exactly how far out they need to be, I bet this happens here all the time" The shark had 4 tries then disappered.
Next season I was engineer on a 38 metre pole boat called "Bellinda". Middway trough the season we were fishing up in the head of the bight. The rest of the fleet had gone back to Lincoln because there was a blow coming, our skipper decided to stay thinking it might be calm in the morning for a while and being one of the biggest boats in the fleet could handle the sea. the next day ended up flat calm with patches of tuna everywhere. the fish were biting hard as they often did just before a change, but every now and then they would suddenly piss of, which seemed unusual.Later that night we were still filling the tanks with tuna.(70 tons poled in a day, Hail the mighty auto pole machine,and still flat calm) at about 10 pm I was in the engine room and the skipper came down. most unusual.he said come and check this and when I did I saw a monster shark swim past the stern of the boat. this thing was as long as the Belinda is wide and she has a 22 foot beam. The girth of it was phenominal.(I just had the same shiver down my spine I had back then) During the off seasom I had made a big hook out of 19mm 316 stainless steel. I grabbed it and connected it to a length of chain and then 2 60ltr drums for floats. this was tied to the boat with 30mm nylon rope with 2 car tyres tied in as shock absorbers. We put it in the water with a tuna on it and at first the shark ignored it,would quite happily eat any other tuna we threw in with no hook in it.We now relised why the fish had behaved so wierd during the day, we were being followed and it had a good feed along the way. soon the shark started circling the bait and eventully hit it like a runaway train. one of the most violent things Ive ever seen. We all felt the jolt on the boat and she would have weighed about 400 Tons by then. When everything settled we pulled the gear in and that 19mm hook was straighted and bent back the other way. never even looked like stopping that creature.
After that I didn't see a pointer for a few years. The next year I was on a purse seine vessel called "Maria luisa" Which I stayed on for about 8 years until I retired from fishing. During that time I breifly saw one when sailboarding off the boat when anchoured at St Francis island. These were the days before tuna farming and Japenese processing boats would follow us and take tuna. Some thought I was a little crazy sailing their but with the amount of tuna offal going over the side their I figured the sharks wouldn't be hungry enough to bite my bony arse. For years we would anchour behind the islands along the west coast and every time put a shark hook out and let some tuna blood out, nothing but bronzies. We did catch a couple of little ones at Eucla on the WA border.
This made me feel safe when in the water around Lincoln surfing and diving. I thought if there's no pointers out their, should be safe in here. There were a couple of attacks over all those years,nothing like whats happening now. These days I work on tugs (saw a pointer at Whyalla last year) Freinds that work in fishing tell me great whites are almost in plauge proportions now, I dont know about that, allthough I'm leaving the surfboard at home and kiteboarding in kneedeep water now.

Great stories gwendy!!

The one with the shark straightening the 19mm hook is scary but amazing as the same time!!

I love the fact all are putting in their bit to this discussion. I have been diving all day today and am a bit stuffed so will keep it short.

Yep where there are small whites a bigger one comes through every while. The small whites hang in these areas like Forster to Newcastle because they are close to exclusively feeding on fish at that age. As they get larger 2.5mtrs and up the teeth start to widen to form the classic triangle shape. Then they start widening their diet to include items like larger fish they can't just hold and swallow. As they get bigger again say 3mtrs plus they start to hunt marine mammals also. The bigger they get the more they rely on marine mammal in their diet. In SA they eat a smaller amount of seal than in other parts of the world. In South Africa for example their diet can be dominated by seal. But in OZ they take a wider variety of food, this makes them more exploitive of other food items and more likely to bite say a surfer occasionally. Bottom line they seem a lot more likely to try biting new items in OZ.
Re the white pushing part out of the water to try to get a seal. I assume this is a attack strategy in certain areas where the topography of the shore is such that the shark can get back into the water ie steep sloping rocks. Interesting to hear about this, I have seen it at Greenly island & once at South Neptune. In the area Doug got attacked - deeper water close to a sloping rock shelf and surging water up the rocks. Greenly has this in spades in the bay.

That sounds frightening for the tuna farm workers who frequently (daily) walk around the tuna farms at water level, surrounded by tuna and pilchard feed, and at harvest tuna blood all around them.

... and then there is the cheery paper "Hunting patterns and geographic profiling of white shark predation" by Martin, Rossmo and Hammerschlag published in the Journal of Zoology in October 2009, the abstract for which reads as follows. "Predators can play important roles in structuring their communities through top-down effects on the distribution and abundance of their prey. Sharks are top predators in many marine communities, yet few studies have quantified those factors influencing their distribution and hunting behaviour. Here, we use location data from 340 predatory interactions between white sharks Carcharodon carcharias (Linnaeus), and Cape fur seals Arctocephalus pusillus pusillus (Schreber), data on associated environmental factors, and spatial analysis, including a novel application of geographic profiling – a tool originally developed to analyse serial crime – to investigate spatial patterns of shark attack and search behaviour at Seal Island in False Bay, South Africa. We found that spatial patterns of shark predation at this site are nonrandom. Sharks appear to possess a well-defined search base or anchor point, located 100 m seaward of the seal's primary island entry–exit point. This location is not where chances of intercepting seals are greatest and we propose it may represent a balance among prey detection, capture rates, and competition. Smaller sharks exhibit more dispersed prey search patterns and have lower predatory success rates than larger conspecifics, suggesting possible refinement of hunting strategy with experience or competitive exclusion of smaller sharks from the most profitable hunting locations. As many of the features of this system will be common to other instances of foraging, our conclusions and approach employed may have implications and applications for understanding how large predators hunt and for studying other predator–prey systems."

Bottom line, if these dudes are correct, whiteys, tigers and bull sharks follow the same modus operandi of human serial killers: lurk in the background, see but don't be seen, stalk the group, pinpoint and select an individual victim, grab the victim by surprise when the right moment presents itself, withdraw with the victim.

And the consensus of this forum appears to be that there are many, many more of the little darlins out there now than 15 years ago.

Happy times...

Whaaaat, I think you have taken that out of context, as did the media when this study came to light.

The abstract says..
"including a novel application of geographic profiling – a tool originally developed to analyse serial crime – to investigate spatial patterns of shark attack"

The study uses the application of geographic profiling.

This tool was developed to analyse serial crime, but the study is using it on sharks.

So a little bit different than naming them serial killers.

OK, first of all I don't think there are many , many more White Sharks out there. In the early 1990's the NSW Gov held a summit on White Sharks, and if their numbers were such reduced to warrant protection. All States attended with Fisheries reps, scientists & Gov reps. Also present were head scientists in fisheries & CSIRO. This meeting was prompted by a fax and letter campaign calling for the protection of the white shark in State waters by the public and conservation groups . The other reason was the White shark had been protected in California, South Africa & The Seychelles and international scientific organisations & conservation groups were also calling for more protection.

As a result of this meeting & other influences various State Govs and the Fed Gov announced protections of White Sharks in Fed waters and various State Waters, later all states came on board.

The reason I have brought this up, is for this meeting, a survey of incidental bycatch of Whites was undertaken and presented looking at bycatch fisheries impact on Whites. This data was taken from a number of industries, surveying their compulsory log book entries which most commercial fishers are to take as part of their licensing conditions. Ie you don't do the right things on your licence, you loose your livelihood. Some fisheries also have observers on board as a licence requirement. To tell a long story short, by cutting through the massive detail in each fishery, I have abbreviated the above (this is a surfing discussion after all).

End point a figure of around 200 to 250 aprox Whites were being killed each year through accidental bycatch. The figure to a uninformed person may seem low, but it is devastatingly high for a mobile top order, long distancing swimming predators . These sharks as all top order predators have few young, they take long periods of time become sexually mature & females when mature have few successful reproductive years. Top order predators generally are few in number and maintain the health of the entire food chain below them.

What do we know about White Shark reproduction

1) They live to a age of about 40 to 50 years
2) They become mature at about 4.2mtrs (male) 4.5mtrs (female)
3) It takes a White about 15 to 20 years to become mature
4) If sexually successful a female will have young every 2 years
5) If sexually successful a female will have between 4 to 6 young average each 2 years
6) a female will remain sexually active for aprox 10 to 5 years
7) their young do not all survive to maturity for many reasons, sickness, growth deformity, predation by others, environmental change etc etc (this doesn’t include bycatch by man which is another stress as mentioned above)

Before protection White shark numbers had dropped dangerously low. This was shown not just in OZ but globally. Anecdotal figures, catch rates, sighting reports, all showed this. Interestingly the NSW shark nets showed these same drop in numbers (info going back every year from 1936 to now) & the average size of catches of Whites were also getting smaller (the big reproductive sharks were getting rarer and rarer) this is a std model to show a population in dire trouble.

If you do the math the bycatch regardless of protection remains constant. Very few of that 200 plus bycatch across each commercial industry has been reduces today.

A population can't sustain such a loss of recruitment & increase dramatically in number over a 15 to 20 year period. So numbers haven’t increased expedentually as others suggest in this discussion.

Are numbers of Whites increasing I hope so but only at a very slow rate.

This is just point 1 of many things I don't agree with Whaaat's post. Craig also points to a huge floor in Whaaat's interpretation of the above paper.

Next point, What is the point of Science ? To discover and to publish those discoveries in a peer reviewed credible scientific journal. If accepted and published (which ain't easy) you expect other scientist to disagree with your finding, and start studying hard over many years to either prove or disprove your findings. You expect to be uncurrent in your papers findings in the future. The end result is the facts slowly emerge as the years go on.
The above paper although interesting in it's findings, is only partly right and partly wrong. The analysis off using serial killer criminal function is fundamentally incorrect. They are effective assassins only in the form they are highly effective & adaptive killers with the intention to feed, survive & pass their genetic material on to other generations . They don't lie on the bottom waiting to feed on humans. Yes people get bitten on occasion and in the case of Whites we pose a potential prey item, on the rare occasion we come across each other. Many times for a variety of reasons they will come have a look and swim off. But sharks bite for other reasons socially, communicatively, and to taste to name a few.
All top order predators need protection both on land or in the ocean as our food chain needs their regulation. Do you think terrestrial Tigers should be wiped off the planet or Whales both top order predators also ? just a example
Will people get bitten as a result of protecting White sharks ? and the answer is yes on occasion. With more and more people using the water every year the statistical chances of humans getting bitten gets higher. This doesn’t mean the numbers of sharks have spiralled out of control just the number of people have spiralled out of control.
Take me back to the 70’s when there were not so many surfers in the water .

Well, that shook things up a bit. Coupla points. Craig, nothing was taken outta context - I simply quoted the whole abstract from the Journal, without changing a word. And I did add the rider "if these dudes are correct" - their research, after all, is still in the hypothesis stage. And Sharky, I drew no firm conclusions of my own - simply made (a somewhat wry - ironic even) a priori armchair observation.

Consider this, I will try and steer clear of an essay and recount a discussion I have had with a legend fisho from the west coast of South Oz and his view on the current status of white shark popln in our southern waters;

In the 80's there were approx. 180 vessels with gill net reels between Ceduna / Port Lincoln around to Lakes Entrance (give or take a few) - their main purpose was the capture of gummy and school shark for the fish and chip trade..........and if you are gonna jump on your high horse - think for a moment how many battered white skinless boneless tasteless fillets you ate as a kid and remember that with a smattering of tomatoe sauce you loved it.................

Anyway, prior to quotas being introduced (which for gummy and school shark may have been late 80's - 1988 rings a bell)vessels had gear restrictions to limit their effort and vessels could carry and set approx. 3000 m (3 Km) of gillnet (I think it was more like 4Km but lets just say 3 Km as some vessels had more or less capacity)- 180 boats X 3km of gillnet = up to 540 Km of set net per day if all the vessels fished the same day.......you do the math if each of those vessels fished an average of 100 days per year..........

Anyway - the gummy and school shark popln invariably took a knock and the commonwealth fisheries agency responded by revising catch limits and slashing effort in the fishery - today there is around 20 shark gillnet boats covering the same area and setting much less gear......

However in the days when men where allowed to be men - my mate the fisho reckons for about 150 days at sea and setting approx. 450 Km of gillnet per annum - he personally interacted with 5 Great White Sharks that resulted in mortalities / year............he did this for about 7 years straight - so extrapolating this across the fleet (and give or take areas with higher and lower abundances of GWS) - you could conservatively estimate that in the 80's the gillnet fleet accounted for about 6000 GWS mortalities in southern Australian waters......

My mate the fisho concedes - this was not good for the white shark popln........he reckons they were getting thin......and this seems to correlate with the observations that have been offered by Gwendy above........

but my mate the fisho also says that couple the reduction of effort in the gillnet fishery in the late 80's with the 'full' protection of GWS in the 90's - the GWS has had 20 - 25 years of rebuild..........that is rebuild that is being weened on the teat some very fckn healthy and expanding mammal populations.......for instance the Neptune Islands supports one of the biggest fur seal popln's in the sthn hemi and the sea lion pupping rate at one location off the coast of south oz is around 500 pups / year..........the GWS are enjoying a bumper marine environment on the back of reduced human effort for an extended period of time........you do the math - it only stands that their popln is going through a significant growth phase............

Anecdotal reports support this - there were approx. 17 new sharks at the Neptunes this year (that were sighted so think about what slips by in the night?)...GWS sightings by fisho's (incl. my mate) are also increasing and so it stands - so are the interactions with humans.....and they will continue to increase with not so nice consequences for some families.......

Whats my point - we need to introduce some kind of passive system that gives people early warning when GWS are in the vicinity of places that are frequented by humans dressed as seals.......the technology exists for sat tagging - why not tag as many of the toothy bastards possible (at places like the neptunes and stockton) and have some kind of system that either triggers reports (by text) or triggers a siren on a cliff or something.............without going into the funding debate - the benefits of employing such a system are huge in a scientific and human safety sense.....I know I would pay to subscribe to a system that sent me a text to let me know if a white shark was playing hide and seek at my local..............

If something along the lines above is not employed then it will soon become a duty of care issue for state governments to address and the management measure might not be as friendly..........

sorry for the essay.......

That makes a lot of sense PL.

As i said before:

"As many white sharks as possible should be acoustic tagged so that a personal device can be developed to indicate if they are close by. Would reduce the threat to some degree"

Apparantley its being trialled in WA. Anyone know any results?

I agree with both PL and SB76 re the tagging ideas. Non-invasive and neutral measures that as a side-benefit could add enormously to the body of knowledge. How would the measures be funded? The law of negligence (causation and remoteness in particular) is not yet at(and probably will never develop to) the point of bringing surfers within a duty of care re shark attacks owed them by governments. But rep bodies such as Surfing Australia, Surfing South Africa and similar could take a lead by reserving a small percentage of annual membership fees into a dedicated funding pool for tagging. Arguably a better use of funds than just pushing more clones into the already over-gorged maws of the commercial side of our sport. Lawdy, I might even cough up some hard earned and join up....

Protection was declared in SA in Jan 1998 some other states declared in 1997. So protection has only been in place aprox 13 years not 25 as suggested.

Pitchin-lip is correct in saying the Southern Shark fishery has collapsed, which was due to poor management by Gov giving out too many licences to fishers. Gov should have monitored the status of the industry closer and quotered fisher licences accordingly. I can remember seeing a paper presented predicting a fishery collapse at a World Fishery Conf in about 1990. Gov is squarely to blame for this collapse, not the fishers who were just making a living on a permit from Gov. This has happened in many fisheries.

With Seal numbers rising, southern Shark fishery reductions etc etc. Yes, you would expect a recovery of animals like Whites. Couple of points though, bycatch pressure as previously discussed still exists & recruitment of such predators is Slow !

There is just not enough time for shark numbers to explode to the massive proportions hinted to by previous comments. This doesn't mean they are not slowly recovering in number, which I agree they are.

Another point is related to recruitment, predators do not recruit at a break neck speed effectively starving them selves out of the oceans. Recovery will be slow and ordered not exceeding the available food for them in their massive cruzing territories.

Both Pitchin-lip & Sunbay76 are correct, we need to find ways to live with sharks as this started from the above article by Stu. It ain't just as easy as popping a tag on the sharks back and then wait for a SMS. First, tagging studies have clearly shown tags foul with algae and fall off. Sharks also rub them off. Sat tags have shown these animals can swim to NZ then back to SA then off to WA and poss in some cases on to South Africa. In the Northern Hem, they trip from Faralons to Mexico and off to Hawaii. So wacking a tag on a shark and saying we will be safe now, doesn't work. The shark just heads off, poss not to return to our waters for a couple of years. Next point battery technology only allows tags to be powered for less than 2 years. Next problem a listening station moored on the bottom can only listen to a range of 1km on average, due to background noise. The manufacturer Vemco claims 2 km but I have never seen close to this coverage in my work.

This does not mean such technology is imposable, or not worth pursuing. This is why they are trying such a plan in WA and we will see what time shows.
Bottom line is, we as surfers need to take some responsibility for our safety ourselves buy surfing smart (that includes me, so no more Neptune sessions ha ha). We should embrace ideas and technologies that help keep us safer & also accept the fact we are in their territory.
Human shark interactions have happened in the past and will regrettably happen in the future. But the most dangerous think that most of us will do, is hop in the car, turn the ignition key and back out the driveway onto the killing fields we call our roads. I don’t see anyone trying to ban or cul the surf car because they cause death to surfers.

Some realy good points made here and common sense doesn't always need scientific data to prove the point.
I've no knowledge on accoustic tags but have a bit of experience with sat pop-ups and their inherant problem is the tags coming off the host even with quite complicated applications.
One thing I do have a problem with is this 'duty of care' by governments or anyone to keep us safe. What ever happened to being responsible for our own actions? We know they are out there, they have the potential to attack us, and we chose to play in their playground.
Subsidising something like suggested above would cost an absolute furtune,and you could never gaurantee every shark would be tagged along with the constant ongoing tagging of offspring. It all sounds good in theory but the reality is complicated and costly.
Human nature is a funny thing and I know that after spotting a tiger in a location, I steer clear for a while, but over time I play the numbers gamble and return. You know they are around your just gambling on their interest in you.

Whaaaat now your talking bro

This is what I am talking about well posted

And as Fitzroy has said we need to take responsability ourselves. Money dedicated to research of sharks from the surfing industry is a very good idea. May be a bit hard to get the Big 4 to cough up though

Hi again and hi to Mr. Sharky in particular,

Mate I am not having a go here but you are a bit of a drama queen, no?

The shark fishery "took a knock" (that is different to a collapse - I never said that so please dont misrepresent my comment) and because of management actions taken back in the day the fishery is now in a very strong position...The fishery may never be the same as it was prior to fishing but it is biologically and commercially in a sound position. ......this fishery has a long history of commercial exploitation - school shark liver was a major source of Vit A during WW2 for our troops and they were heavily exploited in Victorian waters in this period......this fishery can handle commercial pressure to a point - the only thing in danger in this fishery at moment is the fishers and their livelihoods....

Now, I dont agree with your "slow recovery" timeframe........who says GWS take 15 - 20 years to become mature.........far out - I would be surprised if most live this long.......yeah yeah they (the scientists) have read the rings in their anus to determine age structure but that information is hard to validate and I believe that age and age at maturity has been grossly over-estimated by scientists that peddle crisis for self-interest.......my call is they start playing hide the clasper when their about 9 (even younger) which halves the recovery timeframe being presented by Sharky and is in line with observations from people who spend their time in this environment..........really - please try and prove that wrong - its as valid a call as anyone elses..........if numbers were as critical as you suggest (and Rod Fox back in the day when they lobbyed for endangered status) - there would be no "nursery" or viable population of juv at Stockton - which is clearly the case - this popln would never have recovered!!! - you have taken the doom and gloom dribble way to seriously.............

Also re the sat tagging suggestion - I would like to see the results from WA that SunBay has suggested and I will go looking. Yeah there is clearly cost issues and nothing will ever be 100% effective but if there is a possibility it will save lives then it should be progressed........surely if there are no white pointer left it shouldnt be that hard to tag them all? (dont answer that I am taking the piss)

Thanks Pitchin -lip. I don't have to mate as the research is there in print via journal and the scientific process & fisheries record. Your ideas are fine and you are entitled to them, but the info I have presented (best I can) is reviewed and is on the right track not perfect but on track (look at my explanation of the scientific process ) I guess you don't accept medicine as that is hogs wallop science mumbo jumbo also. Your entitled to you opinion mate and all is cool with that. I ain't drama queening just presenting info for a free discussion.

Very interesting discussion...Whaaats comments put a smile on my face...I set up Whitetag and Tag For Life for the very reasons you have highlighted..Having worked with scientists over many number of years,I soon realised early on how poorly funded research is here in Aus..I spent time at one of the surfing companies back in the late 70s after finishing school and I approached them a few years back with the idea of funding shark research,let me just say they ran for the hills...I thought it would have been a shoe in to get at least one of the big three on board but,no,anything to do with the word shark sent the fear of god into them and represented a threat to their respective brands...Shark research and surfing companies,what a joke.!!!
I then decided to establish our not for profit environmental trust,Tag For Life to raise funds from the corporate,philanthropic and private sectors that would go directly back to shark science and benefit us,the ocean user...By this stage I'd well and truly had a gutful of the big three and decided to set up Whitetag to produce items that would also contribute back to Tag For Life and hence shark research...It has been a long time in the workshop but,we are out and about with various pieces of apparel..In fact,my old pal Wayne Lynch steered me to Patagonia and its One Percent for the Planet format...This is our template...Whitetag is now a member of one percent for the planet and we contribute back with both funds and scientific results to the broader community..
We would love all surfers and ocean users to get on board,Tag For Life is currently funding a research project on white sharks in and around the Corner Inlet region of Victoria that ties in with the work undertaken by CSIRO in the Port Stephens area of NSW..We plan on incorporating SA research if we can source funding this year...
Funnily enough we have a surf film festival running this weekend on the Mornington Peninsula with the Clean Ocean Foundation and proceeds from the event go back to both Clean Ocean and Tag For Life programs..
Stay tuned.

I have a different perspective of the GWS issue in South Australia from spending many hours (hundreds) flying at low level over SA waters. Also being a regular surfer around Waits and Yorkes Peninsula I have regularly ‘drifted over’ during flights to have a look at the conditions on my favourite breaks. I have on many occasions seen large GWS close these breaks and on a number of occasions there were surfers within the sharks ‘detection range’. I have no doubt that the Noahs knew the surfers were there.

Also on really clear days with no wind, you can see a considerable depth into the water. On these days we see lots of sharks of different varieties in SA waters, and around the same number of dolphins. With no real scientific proof, I recon that there are roughly the same number of dolphins in the area as there are sharks. Given that over the last 20 years surfing around S.A. I have seen thousands of dolphins while surfing, so even if there are only 1/10 the number of sharks in the area as dolphins, then I recon that more than a few sharks have seen me out in the line-up and chosen not to eat me. I haven't noticed an increase in the number of GWS in the last few years, but because my limited observations are from the air, I would not be the best person to ask.

Obviously we are not immune to attack, but we can only gain a full appreciation of the threat if it were possible to determine the number of ‘close encounters’ between GWS and humans in the water and compare this to the number of attacks. Given most people would be oblivious to the presence of a GWS in their vicinity while surfing, then this will never be possible. My gut feeling is that there is not that great a threat. Having said that, I recon I am setting myself up for the next GWS that sees me in the line-up to prove me wrong. Also I surf on a bright red board, so if you see me out there you might want to give me a wide berth.

Great insight froth46 :o

I have never seen a shark in the water, but one morning when surfing with my current room mate out at Waits before Uni there was an encounter.

There was no one else out and it had that erie feeling, overcast, glassy/lumpy and some solid sets.

We were only out for 10-20mins or so but after my mate caught a wave in he started calling my name to come in.

Instantly I knew something was up as there's no real reason to tell me to come in other than a shark.

He was already nearly to shore, while I had to catch the whitewash through the area he was just in, and guess what, the wave faded into a deep channel! I scrambled across and then got to shore to ask him what was up.

He said when he was paddling back out he thought someone else was paddling out right next to him, but then he instantly realised it was a shark around 2m long. He said it looked like a Bronzie, but either way it's not the nicest experience to have in the surf.

I've had another encounter similar to that at Parsons, and have also had numerous solo sesh's early at Parsons that have felt spooky, but I guess it's just naivety when the waves are pumping.

The comparison between the amount of dolphins to sharks is scary, but comforting in a way..

I surf a fair bit between lone pine and wreck beach, and I admit being able to see the sandy bottom gives some comfort. Takes away the fear of ambush. Its common to see bronzies swimming around here, The first time was many years ago when I was surfing longboards at wreck with my brother. We were sitting out the back and he pointed down and said "check that". There was a 2m brozie swan straight underneath us. It scared the shit out of me so I got ready to leave quickly. he said "Dont worry about him he's to busy chasin salmon". so I stayed. Probably 3 or 4 bronzies swimming around that day, completly ignored us. Over the years I've seem many bronzies in that area.(always looking for the rounded nose) Only one time has one ever paid any attention to me by circling me so I caught the next wave in. I'm wondering now if its been sensible or if I've had a fools complacency.

This is a brilliant discussion. Thanks to all for the great input. You have to wonder though, if a relatively comprehensive tagging->tracking->notification type system could overcome the obvious technological and economic obstacles to become effective?... how much would we surf? maybe the 'notifications' would be far more common than we expect. Would you still go out for a surf if your phone was telling you that a white toothy over a couple of metres was in the vicinity?

I would have thought that if you could get a text about a GWS in the area, they would be hunted pretty actively. Those people who think they should be hunted to extinction would just use the info to head out and take them out when they know they are around.

Go out: mebbe not,Grug, or mebbe if conditions were great I'd just be more inclined to sit closer to my mates in the line up.

Did I just say that out loud?

Froth46 I think you're right on the money, close encounters would be occurring all the time without people realising it. Around Victor Hbr at the moment you can't even see your feet sitting on your board so who knows what is lurking nearby. Gwendy has the right idea surfing in shallow clear water. One time I paddled after a bronzie at Wreck Beach to get a closer look it flicked around and came up to suss me out, I figured anything less than 6 foot long wasn't that dangerous. Diving in the tropics it is unusual not to see sharks on every dive while it is extremely rare to see one diving or surfing in SA. We all have a ticket, when your number is up thats it unfortunately.

I would like to say that there has been a lot of great information placed in this forum. Every one is entitled to their opinions. I would like to make a few corrections.
Nat-old: seeing as you spent time in Lincoln you should know Doug was a shark fisherman (ultimate irony)not crayfishing, my mate Neil was the deckie and jumped in to get Doug when the shark let go. He said he was holding onto the rocks with one hand and outsteched the other to grab Doug. As has been said the sharks have been seen here, and other places, to take or try to take seals off the rocks. I was going to go out with them on the next trip, but that obviously didn't happen. I was also friends with Jeavon and still catch up and surf with his brother. I also knew Paul Buckland who was killed at smoky and also friends with Jake Herron who was bitten at left point.
The guy on the whale at Cape Jervois, unless there was two, was Ruben, also a mate. He was the numb nut that got on there with his son. I think the person who asked about the guy on the whale was referring to the scientist in WA who filmed tiger sharks feeding on a whale, he was standing on, off the back of rotto and was reaching in and patting them. This was to demonstrate that they are not mindlessly biting at anything. They were casually taking chunks off the whale and couldn't give a shit about him.
Sharky: Pitching lip was saying 20-25 years from the height of the gill netting, This was when 180 boats killed up to 6000 sharks by his count, so read the comments properly before attacking him and saying that it has only been 13 years for them to make a comeback.
Friends of mine work in the cage diving scene. Last Feb they saw 1 white shark. this year in Feb they had 17 different and new sharks(untagged/unidentified) come to the boat.

Just a few things I thought might be of interest.

Thanks Dylan great info

I was not attacking Pitchin-lip just answering his points which is part of a fee discussion.

Re shark number fluctuations we saw the same things on the Cousteau trips. I was on board the last trip and then Rolf and I fair split the tags for the next 10 years aprox. Sometimes I was on my own boat, other times with Rolf. Andrew Fox did a few over that time also but mostly it was Rolfy & me. I was spending about 3 months per year in Lincoln back then. All tagging work was under the control of the CSIRO, since then I have been down every year for varying amounts of time. When protection came in, the previous 3 years (aprox) had been very lean with many trips going out in a row and having NO sharks at all . Once we had no sharks for a month, Then shortly after protection the cycle of sharks started to come back to reasonable numbers, then it dropped away to no sharks again, this repeated itself every 4 or 5 years. This same pattern happened at Dangerous reef at different times when the reef was available as a site. Sharks come and go, island hopping to other locations because of may reasons including rises and falls in the SOI (Southern Oscellation Index + or - ).
Point being, I know these critters fairly well, also doing work with them in other locations around the world. Just because there are new sharks at the Neptune’s now, doesn't mean numbers have increased by many fold as Pitchin- Lip infured. This is all part of the ebbs and flows of the waters. You as a professional fisherman (i am making a guess here) should know that better than anyone. There have been more blue fin in the area this year than can be remembered.

I have learned a lot from this discussion and I am by far not thinking I am right, as I am not mostly. I am as said earlier, just giving hard earned info from 30 plus years working with live sharks on a professional basis. I hope my comments have been of some help & I thank all for this great and educational discussion. I hope it continues

ebb and flow.....exactly - it is easy to count cows in a paddock not so easy counting specimens obscured by salt water adhering to the rules of nature we obviously know fck all about.....

So when we get the opportunity to make a measurement it is relative rather than absolute and we get snapshots from which we base way to many decisions.......like, for instance, providing a status for a species as being endangered, or over fished, or readily exploitable in rare cases.........

Do you think that the endangered status given to the white shark back in the 90's was a wee bit hasty considering the clear increase in GWS occurance when they are entering our line of sight today???? Was it a politically cool thing to do because sharks hadnt shown up for a few years or were they genuinely on the brink of extinction as the status "infurs"??

There are more sharks on land than in the water.....and the marine scientific community appears to be bursting at the seams with them.

A dam good question mate

The protection was not taken hastily it was taken over research from not just Oz but other locations around the world. A decision then was taken using this information and something called The Precautionary Principal. The IUCN redlist which is a huge organisation from all over the world was in agreement with this protection. Nothing is done through organisations such as IUCN without supporting information. The decision by Gov to protect the GWS was right. All top order super predators should be protected. Their numbers are slow to increase, but won't out populate the available food supply, otherwise they would fail as a species. Tigers. lions etc & even large whales (they top order their krill food chain)& Killers top order their fish eating food chain. Without these animals within the environment the health of the area is in a worst case, doomed to failure. Bottom line, you take out the apex predators that control the health of the ecosystem you risk failure of this ecosystem. Ie in the oceans case, the fisheries that we rely on to put food on the table fails (fishermen ultimately go broke in a extreme case)

Killer Whale & Whites are a interesting case in point as they both compete in similar areas.

As for Sharks on land, I can't agree more and they exist in all business.

I am happy if shark numbers have increased (if they have) a little, however the true quantifiable evidence is not there yet. I can however say they haven’t increased to the levels of a white on every reef as you imply though. As said earlier, if that is your opinion that is fine, but don't expect Gov to change policy just because you say you, me and my mate say this. Quantifiable scientific evidence needs to be published and proved for Gov to make changes. Even if this happens no one is going to give locals permission to go out and kill on a whim.
I have no love of Gov, I have raged against the machine for years. I am not a Gov employee or would ever want to. Too much paper shuffling and sitting on you ass. I am happier out in the field risking my ass either diving with sharks or surfing. If I go I go, one day we all got to die some time. Only God & Karma knows when that may be.

Dylan - thanks for the corrections mate. I only knew Doug in the late 80's and early 90's, he was quite young then and probably had a number of jobs after that. I wouldn't say he was a close mate but I knew him well enouth to talk to at the pub or down the street as you do in Lincoln. Were you part of his surf crew who were always out at the popular spots around Lincoln then? One of the lads had a pilots licence and they used to fly over to some of the islands for a quiet session, that's the story they told me anyway. I feel for you knowing some of the shark victims, I also knew Terry Gibson, the diver who was taken off Adelaide in the late 80's and Peter Clarkson - it does have an effect on you when you reflect on the way they died.

Sunbay "That sounds frightening for the tuna farm workers who frequently (daily) walk around the tuna farms at water level, surrounded by tuna and pilchard feed, and at harvest tuna blood all around them"

I Used to work on the farms and that was always fun being on the opposite side of the farm to the boat setting the split line for the crowd net when harvesting. Especially when occasionally there would be Pointers in the farm that had jumped over the predator net into the farm following a seal or whatever. My friends tied up and threw a bleed mat over one day to a 15footer by the boat and played tug o war with it for a while.

Nat-old: I was a bit younger than Doug and those boys, moved to Lincoln in the mid 90's. but yeah surfed with all the "boys". Yes people do fly to some remote joints, i have been by boat but not plane. Mates still get flown out to certain spots on the occasion. Good waves but having been told by a skipper i know about how one time he had a 15ft pointer drowned in his net, so he tied it to the stern and was towing it back to town(this was before protection) and was passing one of the waves when he felt a knock to the boat. When he investigated there was a much larger poiter that had attacked the one he was towing. So paddling back to the boat across deep water is always a bit of concern.

Sharky: I didn't mean it like that. i said everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to categorically state that it was a thirteen year time frame was not taking into account what had been said as explained above. Speaking of killers my friends took some great footage of killers on a tow trip. they actually got in the water with them and they came and sussed them out. maybe not the safest thing to do but great footage.

Dylan no worries mate one of the problems of such posts is it's easy to miss interprate the tone of what people are trying to say. emoticons may be a good idea for the forums if the list dad is reading.

I have a few pen stories to tell, but not sure if this is the right place to tell them ha ha. The pens are interesting places I have always loved getting out to them over the years. Still amazes the shit out of me those places.

By the way we have passed a hunderd posts on this subject not sure if thats a record ? but it's a interesting subject.

Had a nice surf this morning swell is pumping on the East Coast right now. We have had a lot of rain water is dirty!!! much the same colour as a burbin & coke.

Mid North Coast NSW another guy has been hit at around dusk. From the reports so far, I have a guess as to what it was but I'll wait for the report."charged at great speed and hit like a freight train". Is missing a chunk out of him but apparently will come through OK. Lucky.

This is worth another read.
Also some footage on ABC of a GWS at Potatoe Point chasing a already hooked salmon in the shallows.

jeez i just read every post in this thread, the information on here is phenomenal.
mind blowing stuff

Yeah some amazing stories & info in this thread for sure. Still it's hard to ignnore the cold hard facts, the stats, although they are slightly out of date:

"In the last 40 years there have been 37 attacks in South Australian waters, 16 of them fatal. "

Each fatality & attack a tragedy no question. Surfing in these parts still remains a relatively safe pursuit regardless of how it feels. The power of the mind.....