Australia - you're standing in it
I’d argue if your elected as a Green, or whatever, that you follow the party’s line because the voters who got you there expect it. Bugger this I don’t get my way and become an independent. You weren’t elected as independent and most likely would never have been.
Double tap
sypkan wrote:good on her
don't agree with a lot of what she says, but she was impressive on qanda last week, with some excellent points and questions that should be asked...
this voice 'debate' has become so pathetic. labor could shut down any reservations people have by answering simple questions. but their 'advisors' have told them not to get bogged down on detail...
all the while claiming all the detail is there...
not the detail going forward clowns!
if they can keep that up for 6 months... good on em...
if it doesn't get up, its on albo and labor and noone else
no bullshit claims its because of racism, please!!
If it doesn’t get up spud will also be blaming Albo
It's strange that you can be elected under one party and then just swap to being an independent and still hold a position in parliament, you would think you either have to stay with the party you are with for the full term or leave and wait until next election to have a go at getting voted in as an independent.
I don't think many people really understand how divided politically active indigenous people are on this voice thing, i think now she has moved from the Greens to an independent you will see more media giving a voice to this Indigenous sovereignty movement.
It's going to confuse a lot of the public that's for sure, especially the ones who think Indigenous people all think a certain way.
Some things are destined to happen and Thorpe’s resignation from the Greens shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. With Thorpe and Price we truly do have lunatic fringe bookends vying for attention.
GuySmiley wrote:Some things are destined to happen and Thorpe’s resignation from the Greens shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. With Thorpe and Price we truly do have lunatic fringe bookends vying for attention.
Im more surprised she wasn't kicked out.
While I'm not a fan of Lidia, i think its great that Australia politics has such range of diverse Indigenous politicians, there is a whole spectrum of different views i mean you also have people like Jacqui Lambie who are pretty out there but a little hard to pigeonhole.
I think its a great for the public to see and hear differing views from indigenous leaders and just good for democracy all round.
It's also interesting that 9 of the current 11 indigenous political leaders are women.
I understand what you’re saying ID but I’m looking for the motive why people in Thorpe’s/Price’s position would want to argue against such a 5-8 years long and broad based community ground up process apart from grandstanding. In that sense Price has been more transparent and consistent in her approach than Thorpe but wot they up to apart from self interest wherever that lands?
How’s the hand by the way?
like a large firework has blown up in green faces
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/thorpe-s-exit-from-the-greens...
Supafreak wrote:sypkan wrote:good on her
don't agree with a lot of what she says, but she was impressive on qanda last week, with some excellent points and questions that should be asked...
this voice 'debate' has become so pathetic. labor could shut down any reservations people have by answering simple questions. but their 'advisors' have told them not to get bogged down on detail...
all the while claiming all the detail is there...
not the detail going forward clowns!
if they can keep that up for 6 months... good on em...
if it doesn't get up, its on albo and labor and noone else
no bullshit claims its because of racism, please!!
If it doesn’t get up spud will also be blaming Albo
Another interesting perspective was put out on Insiders on Sunday. Dutton could be blamed for voice not getting up due to his negativity that most can see as pure political shitfuckery and that will not do his election chances any good, he needs the teal seats and small l liberals if there is still such a thing. They are pro voice mainly. Meat for conservative base, but that's not going to get him the numbers to be PM.
Labor could campaign that the LNP nothing but wreckers etc. Anyway when does ICAC get going?
May Dutton long be opposition leader, he's doing a great job to keep position!
"...but I’m looking for the motive why people in Thorpe’s/Price’s position would want to argue against such a 5-8 years long and broad based community ground up process apart from grandstanding..."
'top down process'
'hand picked 20 representatives'
'from aboriginal organisations and corporations who already have a mandate in controlling our affairs'
'that's why people walked out, it was already a done deal'
that's why!
its the same old, same old, old gaurd...
the same crew that have lead us all to this point
you know what einstien said...
Be pretty cool if she started an Indigenous Australian political party out of this that won seats at state and federal level
Fuck off sypkan
sypkan wrote:"...but I’m looking for the motive why people in Thorpe’s/Price’s position would want to argue against such a 5-8 years long and broad based community ground up process apart from grandstanding..."
'top down process'
'hand picked 20 representatives'
'from aboriginal organisations and corporations who already have a mandate in controlling our affairs'
'that's why people walked out, it was already a done deal'
that's why!
its the same old, same old, old gaurd...
the same crew that have lead us all to this point
you know what einstien said...
@sypkan , do you believe first nations people will be better off with no vote voice to parliament ?
GuySmiley wrote:Fuck off sypkan
ok boss
good chat
sypkan wrote:GuySmiley wrote:Fuck off sypkan
ok boss
good chat
You don’t chat sypkan not ever
Supafreak wrote:sypkan wrote:"...but I’m looking for the motive why people in Thorpe’s/Price’s position would want to argue against such a 5-8 years long and broad based community ground up process apart from grandstanding..."
'top down process'
'hand picked 20 representatives'
'from aboriginal organisations and corporations who already have a mandate in controlling our affairs'
'that's why people walked out, it was already a done deal'
that's why!
its the same old, same old, old gaurd...
the same crew that have lead us all to this point
you know what einstien said...
@sypkan , do you believe first nations people will be better off with no vote voice to parliament ?
like its (indigenous) critics...
I just don't see how it will change much, anything for that matter...
there are already innumerable aboriginal bodies advising government on every possible issue, health, education, disadvantage...
yes they are not binded by constitution, but they are there, they guide legislation, exactly the same as what is proposed
I don't think it will do any harm. and I do believe it to be a 'gracious offer', considering what has been on the table and offered in the past...
but I believe it to be a total waste of the time, energy, resources, and goodwill required to hold a referendum
"I don't think it will do any harm..."
...having said that, I do have serious reservations about anything that divides people up in the constitution - im not sure it is a wise thing to do...
will this seem like an appropriate thing in 20, 50, 100 years time?
it might still seem appropriate... but it might also just entrench aboriginal disadvantage (more) by creating two classes of people...
as I've said before, I believe policies of 'the left' have done a great job at preserving and restoring aboriginal culture, much needed... ...a win!
I also believe they have created a deeply entrenched trap of disadvantage in remote communities, as the 'museum exhibit' model obsession has enriched some with skills and a culture to sell...
but created a culture of terribly low expectations for the majority - low expectations by every possible conceivable measure - as the rest of the world races on...
entrenching that already debillitating entrenchment more, is truly my biggest concern
I just don't think it fits with the times, in an ever increasingly globalised and competitive world
if there was more to it (the vote), or if labor were more forthcoming with practical solutions and answers, I could totally change my mind
but Im not seeing it from labor, seeing quite the opposite...
none of that means I'll vote against it
GuySmiley wrote:sypkan wrote:GuySmiley wrote:Fuck off sypkan
ok boss
good chat
You don’t chat sypkan not ever
dude, I provided quotes from lidia thorpe, with a link
they may totally contradict your dogma... but they're the 'voice' of a blackfella...
@sypkan , isn’t the voice about First Nations people giving advice and offering a different approach than what political parties have come up with in the past ? Why do want Labor to give the practical solutions and answers ?
well that's what 'the sell' says supa...
but i really cannot see how it will achieve anything different to what we already have, as I said, there are already innumerable bodies, departments, ngo's and groups advising government - made up of aboriginal people and their academic advice - it's up to government whether they take up that advice and legislate...
much like the voice...
government of the day will decide
it really does just seem to add another layer of bureaucracy
"Why do want Labor to give the practical solutions and answers ?"
the advisors are already there, many proposals already made...
either side just picks and chooses their preferred 'experts'...
from my perspective, remote areas are in crisis, yes plagued by intergenerational trauma... but the current trajectory has 3 more generations lined up to come... at least..
I don't see how a voice is going to change that...
the voice may appease the redfern set, the newtown set, and some academics...
but I cannot see it addressing any real crisis that is currently playing out
No time like the present , why not ask the elected indigenous members of parliament to brainstorm a solution to the problems in Alice Springs and come up with a plan . At the same time get the members who have put the voice to parliament together and ask them to brainstorm and offer a solution to the problems in Alice Springs . It would give the public an idea of who is really worth listening to. No good asking spud for solutions , he’s stuck on repeat .
because as many have pointed out, the government of the day will just ignore recommendations that don't align with their ideology...
we have already seen this with the alice springs situation, with labor even ignoring their own minister - Ms Marion Scrymgour MP...
who, along with Price, warned them for months what was coming, for probably 12 months!
albo, and probably more so NT labor, totally fucked up with what has happened in alice, totally avoidable, irrepaiable damage...
damage that has screwed over reconcilliation just as much - if not more, than anything albo's worried about if his little project gets a 'no' vote
"No good asking spud for solutions , he’s stuck on repeat ."
but yes, we agree on that... his questions are just as pathetic as albo's stonewalling
Different record same concluding chords
Same same shit
don't be so hard on yourself
gsco wrote:Be pretty cool if she started an Indigenous Australian political party out of this that won seats at state and federal level
you might just get your wish
the first part anyway...
seems lidia can't lose
for five years anyway...
https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/politics/lidia-thorpe-set-to-se...
poor ol' albo, not so much...
...and the greens, lotsa butthurt in the comments...
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/thorpe-s-exit-from-the-greens-th...
geeez, she's really has just found herself some immediate bargaining power though...
JP wants ears , I would have thought she wanted action , voices and ears mean nothing without action . If the voice doesn’t get up and some of the 11 elected indigenous members aren’t voted back , what happens then ? Does JP believe the majority of First Nation’s people oppose the voice ?
"We don't need a Voice, we need ears. We need our leadership to use their ears and to listen to community." - @JNampijinpa on her opposition to the Voice to Parliament #abc730 pic.twitter.com/WgCgjrOhxs
— abc730 (@abc730) February 6, 2023
Supafreak wrote:@sypkan , isn’t the voice about First Nations people giving advice and offering a different approach than what political parties have come up with in the past ? Why do want Labor to give the practical solutions and answers ?
Why the need to change the constitution then?
You know why, because if you go learn the history its been done all before and failed, a very similar program and idea was scraped (ATSIC) Labor just dont want the appearance of another failed program.
All Labor want to do is look to be doing something and appear progressive to their voters, like hey look what we did we got the voice up we are doing something and keeping people like you hppy making you feel good.
Labor aren't giving any practical solutions or answers, i mean seriously look at Alice springs they allowed alcohol bans to end causing the issues there to blow up.
Ive said it before while i will vote No, there is a silver lining if it gets up as it will show again that it will fail and nothing will change, while if it doesn't get up it will be forever be used as an excuse, oh the problems would be fixed if the voice had gotten up. (Labor know this, its obviously all political)
I feel similarly on a treaty, while i cant support it, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it happened, it will, just show no change in reality of problems but take away excuses.
indo-dreaming wrote:Supafreak wrote:@sypkan , isn’t the voice about First Nations people giving advice and offering a different approach than what political parties have come up with in the past ? Why do want Labor to give the practical solutions and answers ?
Why the need to change the constitution then?
You know why, because if you go learn the history its been done all before and failed, a very similar program and idea was scraped by LNP, Labor just dont want the appearance of another failed program
All Labor want to do is look to be doing something and appear progressive to their voters, like hey look what we did we got the voice up we are doing something and keeping people like you hppy making you feel good.
Labor aren't giving any practical solutions or answers, i mean seriously look at Alice springs they allowed alcohol bans to end causing the issues there to blow up.
Ive said it before while i will vote No, there is a silver lining if it gets up as it will show again that it will fail and nothing will change, while if it doesn't get up it will be forever be used as an excuse, oh the problems would be fixed if the voice had gotten up. (Labor know this, its obviously all political)
I feel similarly on a treaty, while i cant support it, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it happened, it will, just show no change in reality of problems but take away excuses.
So First Nations people don’t want the voice and they didn’t put it together , it is a Labor plan to make people like me feel good . Roger that .
Supafreak wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Supafreak wrote:@sypkan , isn’t the voice about First Nations people giving advice and offering a different approach than what political parties have come up with in the past ? Why do want Labor to give the practical solutions and answers ?
Why the need to change the constitution then?
You know why, because if you go learn the history its been done all before and failed, a very similar program and idea was scraped by LNP, Labor just dont want the appearance of another failed program
All Labor want to do is look to be doing something and appear progressive to their voters, like hey look what we did we got the voice up we are doing something and keeping people like you hppy making you feel good.
Labor aren't giving any practical solutions or answers, i mean seriously look at Alice springs they allowed alcohol bans to end causing the issues there to blow up.
Ive said it before while i will vote No, there is a silver lining if it gets up as it will show again that it will fail and nothing will change, while if it doesn't get up it will be forever be used as an excuse, oh the problems would be fixed if the voice had gotten up. (Labor know this, its obviously all political)
I feel similarly on a treaty, while i cant support it, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it happened, it will, just show no change in reality of problems but take away excuses.
So First Nations people don’t want the voice and they didn’t put it together , it is a Labor plan to make people like me feel good . Roger that .
Most everyday Indigenous people have probably have never heard or know little about it, yeah sure many that have support it as sounds good, but politically active ones often fall into the sovereignty movement and share views with Lidia, and some even with Jacinta.
End of the day though, its all political and to keep voters like you happy and make you feel good.
Something i agree with the Indigenous Sovereignty movement on.
GuySmiley wrote:I understand what you’re saying ID but I’m looking for the motive why people in Thorpe’s/Price’s position would want to argue against such a 5-8 years long and broad based community ground up process apart from grandstanding. In that sense Price has been more transparent and consistent in her approach than Thorpe but wot they up to apart from self interest wherever that lands?
How’s the hand by the way?
They both have very different reasons not to support the voice, its not self interest for themselves, its self interest for their people.
Anyway hand is back to normal, weirdest injury I've ever had, looked crazy but really didn't hurt at the time or even after, it was swollen for two days but by the third was almost back to normal and a week or so latter was back to normal apart from a little wound entry (that also healed super fast), honestly the tetanus needle hurt more and ache lasted longer, so weird, i was super lucky though, get a bone or tendon and its a very different story.
indo-dreaming wrote:Supafreak wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Supafreak wrote:@sypkan , isn’t the voice about First Nations people giving advice and offering a different approach than what political parties have come up with in the past ? Why do want Labor to give the practical solutions and answers ?
Why the need to change the constitution then?
You know why, because if you go learn the history its been done all before and failed, a very similar program and idea was scraped by LNP, Labor just dont want the appearance of another failed program
All Labor want to do is look to be doing something and appear progressive to their voters, like hey look what we did we got the voice up we are doing something and keeping people like you hppy making you feel good.
Labor aren't giving any practical solutions or answers, i mean seriously look at Alice springs they allowed alcohol bans to end causing the issues there to blow up.
Ive said it before while i will vote No, there is a silver lining if it gets up as it will show again that it will fail and nothing will change, while if it doesn't get up it will be forever be used as an excuse, oh the problems would be fixed if the voice had gotten up. (Labor know this, its obviously all political)
I feel similarly on a treaty, while i cant support it, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it happened, it will, just show no change in reality of problems but take away excuses.
So First Nations people don’t want the voice and they didn’t put it together , it is a Labor plan to make people like me feel good . Roger that .
Most everyday Indigenous people have probably have never heard or know little about it, yeah sure many that have support it as sounds good, but politically active ones often fall into the sovereignty movement and share views with Lidia, and some even with Jacinta.
End of the day though, its all political and to keep voters like you happy and make you feel good.
Something i agree with the Indigenous Sovereignty movement on.
I’ve said before if it gets up my life won’t change , if it doesn’t get up , my life still won’t change . Go ahead with your presumptions on what makes me feel good though. Pathetic.
Supafreak wrote:JP wants ears , I would have thought she wanted action , voices and ears mean nothing without action . If the voice doesn’t get up and some of the 11 elected indigenous members aren’t voted back , what happens then ? Does JP believe the majority of First Nation’s people oppose the voice ? https://twitter.com/abc730/status/1622525739961647105?s=46&t=905U0haCPys...
for me, that was an impressive interview, sarah ferguson is a formidable interviewer, and price held her own... whatever you think of the current crop of aboriginal politicians and leaders and their politics... I personally am happy and most impressed in the confident manner in which they present their cases - whoever it is...
yes she wants action, but she wants ears listening first... which, ironically, is the whole proposition of the voice...
I guess her point is, that she, and many leaders, health workers, and positions of power / influence were warning about the alice situation for months, but there was no action... no listening... no ears...
they proposed a transitional period from the stronger futures legislation. a winding back with a little planning, pragmatism, and consideration. but they got nothing... the clock ticked over, the floodgates opened, and the shit hit the fan... just as was predicted / warned...
I see the stronger futures legislation is now reinstated. much to the wide approval of various services according to abc this morning - services that do actually endeavour to help aboriginal people...
whatever you think of the 'racism' of the legislation... surely a transition away from it would be better than a flip back to the heavy handedness?
but now they are back to square one - probably about square negative three tbh...
whatever you think about grog in communities... whatever you think about equality, access, and discrimination.... this flip-flopping must do the blackfellas heads in... and just exaccerbates any feelings of unnecessary paternalism, lack of autonomy, racism, and discrimination...
a mammoth fuck up
the flip-flopping between ideologies just impedes any semblance of perceived or intended progress... no matter how good the intentions...
goodwill burnt to the ground
again...
yes, Im sure price 'believes' most aboriginal people support the voice...
she just doesn't...
as others do not...
and that's ok
No ears and no action for how many years now ? Who’s been running the show for the last few decades ? Where was Dutton and his concerns 12 months ago , FMD. Labor supports a plan put together not by them but by First Nations people and look at the “ it won’t work brigade “ because Labor’s just wanting you to feel good . Again Pathetic. If it gets up , not just listening to ideas put forward from the voice but taking action on those ideas and seeing if things change for the better , then this will be the proof needed. Is it worth exploring ?
I just see the aboriginal situation re. the voice as the same, and reflective of the wider divided political landscape atm
....be it oz, uk, us, europe etc.... people just don't feel represented by their traditional political institutions and 'allies'
they feel ripped off and let down
they feel deserted and forgotten
I put it down to the widening inequality - which is totally eminent, prevelant, and quite stark amongst aboriginal comminities... so so stark!
I also put the cause down to neoliberalism and parties of the left adopting a 'third way' mindset...
but that's a whole other discussion
or not...
Sounds like JP is / was well loved in Alice Springs , had the opportunity to serve and make a difference but the IPA was calling and how could she refuse that gig . https://alicespringsnews.com.au/2019/04/22/jacinta-price-4-year-commitme... The News asked Ms Price, on the day the 13th Council had its first meeting, about rumours that she had political ambitions other than the town council, and might resign before the end of the term.
She said: “I am absolutely committed to serving Alice Springs on Council for at least the next four years. There is much work to be done and I look forward to it.”
The facts don’t bear out this promise.
andy-mac][quote=Supafreak wrote:Tudge gets his turn tomorrow , what do ya reckon will become of scomo , tudge , brother stewie and porter , happily retire on life pension ? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-31/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-ro...
Probably....I wonder if it is possible for victims and family's of victims who committed suicide to mount civil cases against the mentioned ministers if it is proved they continued the scheme knowing it was illegal and causing this harm (they did know and they knew people were killing themselves). Doesn't the minister have ultimate responsibility of their portfolio under our Westminster model?
It will be a horrible injustice if they do not face any consequences, they should lose their pensions at the very least, but yeah probably nothing will happen. Spot on Sky News maybe?
been offline awhile...was "happyppl" comp played up so new signature now.
there is a law that stipulates no federal or state member of parliament can be held accountable for any civil lawsuit brought against them by individual(s) for alleged negligence etc.
have mentioned here before "we" are not a democracy but a plutocracy a govt run by the rich for rich...still lucky though.
sameaswas][quote=andy-mac wrote:Supafreak wrote:Tudge gets his turn tomorrow , what do ya reckon will become of scomo , tudge , brother stewie and porter , happily retire on life pension ? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-31/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-ro...
Probably....I wonder if it is possible for victims and family's of victims who committed suicide to mount civil cases against the mentioned ministers if it is proved they continued the scheme knowing it was illegal and causing this harm (they did know and they knew people were killing themselves). Doesn't the minister have ultimate responsibility of their portfolio under our Westminster model?
It will be a horrible injustice if they do not face any consequences, they should lose their pensions at the very least, but yeah probably nothing will happen. Spot on Sky News maybe?
been offline awhile...was "happyppl" comp played up so new signature now.
there is a law that stipulates no federal or state member of parliament can be held accountable for any civil lawsuit brought against them by individual(s) for alleged negligence etc.
have mentioned here before "we" are not a democracy but a plutocracy a govt run by the rich for rich...still lucky though.
@sameaswas
Thanks for clarification, thought that was the likely scenario. ICAC is the only hope of any justice/ consequence for them.
Crime doesn't pay unless your a politician ey... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Clive is screaming ‘ not happy tan ‘ https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-08/tanya-plibersek-blocks-clive-palm...
I liked the people I met when I worked in this town, and experienced no bad things; and my memories now blur into the hundreds of kms across the red country. Nevertheless, here's a story in similar vein to Alice:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-08/alcohol-restrictions-introduced-i...
Was doing post grad Indo studies at the time that this took place and we all knew at time Howard the war crim was full of shit with his proudest moment crap. Lucky operation did not go pear shaped as it very nearly did.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-09/history-of-australias-role-in-the...
The leftovers are trolling for a new leader , they can see spud is lost in the details…….. Liberal Alan Tudge expected to quit politics, speculation of a Josh Frydenberg comeback https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-09/alan-tudge-expected-quit-politics...
Supafreak wrote:The leftovers are trolling for a new leader , they can see spud is lost in the details…….. Liberal Alan Tudge expected to quit politics, speculation of a Josh Frydenberg comeback https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-09/alan-tudge-expected-quit-politics...
Supafreak. “ The walls come tumbling down “ Love it. AW
Good job, well done Angus!!!
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/10/angus-taylor-behi...
AlfredWallace wrote:Supafreak wrote:The leftovers are trolling for a new leader , they can see spud is lost in the details…….. Liberal Alan Tudge expected to quit politics, speculation of a Josh Frydenberg comeback https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-09/alan-tudge-expected-quit-politics...
Supafreak. “ The walls come tumbling down “ Love it. AW
harrycoopr wrote:AlfredWallace wrote:Supafreak wrote:The leftovers are trolling for a new leader , they can see spud is lost in the details…….. Liberal Alan Tudge expected to quit politics, speculation of a Josh Frydenberg comeback https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-09/alan-tudge-expected-quit-politics...
Supafreak. “ The walls come tumbling down “ Love it. AW
The Sludge has gone. Be great to see Fascist Spud demoted. But then who... has the Libs ever been more rancid with such ugly crims? Bring back the Whiny Pyne?
Supafreak wrote:Sounds like JP is / was well loved in Alice Springs , had the opportunity to serve and make a difference but the IPA was calling and how could she refuse that gig . https://alicespringsnews.com.au/2019/04/22/jacinta-price-4-year-commitme... The News asked Ms Price, on the day the 13th Council had its first meeting, about rumours that she had political ambitions other than the town council, and might resign before the end of the term.
She said: “I am absolutely committed to serving Alice Springs on Council for at least the next four years. There is much work to be done and I look forward to it.”
The facts don’t bear out this promise.
...when she starts wearing natural pearl necklaces
So who had these cameras installed originally ? https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/the-government-is-being-urged-to-rip...
Swellnet better check all its cams to make sure the Chinese are not spying on…well I’m not sure what…but we don’t even want them checking the surf..
The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.