Vaccinate or not
This is sure to ruffle a few feathers , it has a bit to do with what TBB has previously posted and also what Blowin fears .
Distracted wrote:https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-27/niall-ferguson-get...
Interesting stats in this article. I knew they weren't great for the Delta variant but seriously, 60% efficacy after only 14 days from the 2nd shot is not great stats for a vaccine IMO.
"A new study published in the Lancet — based on 19,543 confirmed infections and 377 hospitalizations in Scotland between April and June — shows that implied vaccine efficacy 14 days after the second dose fell for both the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines. For the former, efficacy fell from 92% to 79%; for the latter, from 73% to 60%."
"So many comments on here focus on and dissect governments and political sides. Why?"
It shouldn't be that way Cacadajy and it wouldn't have been that way 20 years ago. There would have been a much more bipartisan approach to fighting Covid.
I'm old enough to remember a time when expert advice was delivered to politicians who respected it and made decisions with the smartest guys in the room.
That's all changed. The absolute shite being pushed by the likes of Canavan, Christensen, Kelly, Hanson, Rennick etc and Morrison's unwillingness to tell these nutters to pull their heads in requires a very strong response. The LNP in Victoria is an absolute fucking joke.
Gladys has also fucked up royally because she listened to big business and Scumo, and refused to lock down before it was too late.
We now see the consequences of people in power listening to the anti-experts / vested interest mob. It's a right royal shit show. A medical and economic disaster which requires a strong critique. Not that Gladys is listening. She's actually talking about easing restriction in just over 2 weeks. The LNP is a lethal rabble, pure and simple.
VL I agree with everything you said apart from naming pollies who you think are inept or dropped the ball.
Imagine if you turned away from watching and being disappointed by those political figures and focussed your energy and passion on being part of an awesome community.
Let the Government give the basic outline and you and sypkan and (george) Jetson and Indo etc. come together with differing views, argue a bit, but then lead communities to just get on with getting on with it.
There can always be room for opinionated debate but I guarentee the most prominant Vaxxer and the most vehement anti vaxxer both want the same thing. A strong economy and to be able to live their lives as they see fit in this awesome country.
I just find focussing on Government, Politicians, MSM, Big Pharma etc etc and dissecting their motives and decisions to be pointless. Let them do their shit in the background while we forge ahead. The more air they are given the more important they and we think they are.
We are the important ones. They exist for us. If we just try to work together to some extent, left- right, black - white, male - female etc etc. who knows? Really we all want pretty similar outcomes I believe.
It would be nice to use this pandemic to grow a stronger population or nation together and end up with Government etc. in their place behind us, supporting us, giving guidance but ultimately not as important as us.
Nice sentiments Cacadajy but it's a massive waste of time debating the flat earth society. Eventually the covid deniers, anti vaxxers, global warming denialists have to be ignored to get any progress. We need to elevate experts (especially scientific ones) rather than give platforms too (and celebrate) ignorant people.
Have you ever tried to hold a rational debate with a Trumper? It's not about changing their mind. It's about showing how dangerous these people are, so their ideas don't get any traction.
Saltyone - Thank you for highlighting information in a recent post . It provided me with much needed insight . So appreciate you sharing your sources !!!
Vic Local, did you read that Spectator article I linked, the one where it cited the roughly $4 billion in fines that Pfizer has paid over the last 30 years?
Our job in society is not only to be nice to each other and be our best selves but to also hold our leaders and institutions to account.
Different interpretations of the same evidence are all around us, doesn’t make anyone a nut job or idiot. However, people with absolute opinions are hard to rationalise with that’s for sure. I preferred to think of everything having pro’s and con’s, including people’s opinions, don’t you agree?
tylerdurden, why would I read an article in the hopelessly compromised Spectator magazine about Invermectin?
Sane people understand that this drug has been thoroughly researched and it's not recommended as a treatment for Covid 19 by any credible drug agency.
Experts matter, and Invermectin promotion is largely the domain of non-medically trained imbeciles like Craig Kelly.
So no, I didn't read your link. I'm putting my trust in the experts, not ex furniture salespeople or orange lunatics.
VL you are correct and a realist. I just had to have some hope of something better.
Back to reality though.
Why is it those with an alternative or minority view seem to have to preach that view to others.
I am not religious. I also do not knock on strangers doors to tell them how good I think my non religious position is and how they should join me on a non religious journey to enlightenment.
I have had the first jab (AZ). I do not feel the need to shout at others to get jabbed and join the vaccinated like we are the enlightened ones who are the only ones who know the real truth. Backing my stance with numerous links to studies and articles.
I am just truly sick of being yelled at from one side that I am just a sheep manipulated and fooled by Government, Media and Corporations with vested interests. That if I only had the ability of critical thought and decision making, like they do, that I too would realise how stupid I am.
The extreme on the other side, I am sure, are just as self righteous. Perhaps they don't shout as loud.
Aww c'mon Blowin dare to dream. Utopia is within reach all you have to do is agree with everything I think and say.
VL, it seems like you are calling the medical authorities from Indonesia imbeciles. Been there on a surf holiday, it’s quite nice.
Research published a few days ago appears to show a definite benefit when used as prophylaxis. Nearly 4000 participants and peer reviewed!
The Spectator article only quoted numbers that are on the public record. I’m sure you couldn’t be bothered but you could verify them yourself if you wanted to.
The “Trump” types you referred to are dogmatic, derogatory and blinkered from potentially considering anyone’s else’s point of view...surely this doesn’t apply to yourself does it?
Oh man this is going to be hilarious.
"Research published a few days ago appears to show a definite benefit when used as prophylaxis. Nearly 4000 participants and peer reviewed!"
Got a link for that champ?
I'm sure every single credible news organisation and medical journal would be all over this miraculous trial, but I just can't find anyone reporting it. BBC? no. ABC? no. Lancet? ba bong. Help a brother out with a link tylerdurden.
As for your claim about Indonesian authorities, well that didn't really stack up either..
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-57838033
You're worse than blowin. maybe you are blowin? STOP TALKING SHIT WHOEVER YOU ARE..
the cult of no idea...
"Different interpretations of the same evidence are all around us, doesn’t make anyone a nut job or idiot."
Actually I reckon it does.
"people with absolute opinions are hard to rationalise with that’s for sure"
A bit like Vic Local and his inability to see that the "left" has, unfortunately, become the natural home of the flat earth society
Oh dear Dr Dick Vocal m.a.d. Is going to have a hissy fit . https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57570377. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-06/29/c_1310032799.htm
https://www.cureus.com/articles/64807-prophylactic-role-of-ivermectin-in...
https://trialsitenews.com/ivermectin-authorized-in-indonesia-as-pharma-i...
How do you think you are doing compared to the “Trump” types? Certainly not dogmatic derogatory or fixed in your opinions?
Oh dear Dr Dick Vocal m.a.d. Is going to have a hissy fit . https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57570377. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-06/29/c_1310032799.htm
bbc...
oh dear indeed
from the cult of no idea...
But wait there’s more , ACTIV-6
Outpatient Repurposed Drugs
The ACTIV-6 master protocol(link is external) is designed to test the effectiveness of repurposed drugs (drugs that are FDA-approved for non-COVID-19 indications and have known safety profiles) in reducing the duration and severity of symptoms associated with mild-to-moderate COVID-19. The large, randomized, placebo‑controlled Phase 3 trial will enroll participants who are at least 30 years old, have tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 infection and show two or more mild-to-moderate symptoms of COVID-19 for no more than seven days. Drugs that demonstrate efficacy in reducing symptoms of mild-to-moderate COVID-19 will be further evaluated for effects on clinical outcomes (hospitalization, mortality) and long-term COVID-19 symptoms.
Agent Trial Phase Description More Information
Ivermectin Phase 3
Ivermectin, donated by Ingenus, is an oral agent that binds selectively to glutamate-gated chloride ion channels to increase cell membrane permeability to chloride ions. Ivermectin is primarily used to treat parasitic diseases and is FDA-approved for the following indications: strongyloidiasis of the intestinal tract due to the nematode parasite Strongyloides stercoralis and onchocerciasis due to the nematode parasite Onchocerca volvulus. https://www.nih.gov/research-training/medical-research-initiatives/activ... Strange that there are currently 5 major clinical trials for ivermectin at the moment . Obviously they haven’t consulted Dr Dick Vocal m.a.d.
Hey blokes.
You do know the difference between trials and approved treatment drugs? I'm not entirely sure you do. You guys link to stories about new trials and get really really excited. I'm going to let you blokes in on a little secret. Ivermectin has been extensively trialled, it's just not been found to be effective.
Surely if Ivermectin was effective the manufacturer (Merck) would be very excited about making some serious cash out of their drug. So are they cashing in on this miracle drug. Fuck no. see. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ivermectin-idUSKBN... Tell me blokes, why exactly is Merck not cashing in? What's in it for them?
And then there's the health insurance industry. Surely if Ivermectin (a very cheap drug) was an effective treatment for Covid, the insurers would be pushing very hard for it's use. That would save them a fortune. Are they pushing for Ivermectin? Fuck no.
So tell me gents, why aren't these companies pushing hard for Ivermectin to improve their bottom line? Could it be that A. there's no evidence the drug is an effective treatment for Covid or B. They are deliberately undermining their profits as part of some grand worldwide conspiracy to keep Ivermectin off the market.
You two are absolute cookers. Did you fall for bleach and hydroxy chloroquine too?
Ivermectin is off label anyone can produce it , no serious money to be made . You really need to change your search engine . Trump could never admit he lost the election and some people could never admit that ivermectin works no matter what studies are done . It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad . The deal Merck has made with the US government for 1.2 billion in pre sales has their new drug at $700 USD per course compared to Ivermectin $2 USD di you want me to do the math for you ? https://ivmmeta.com/
What’s your opinion of the most recent trial from India 5th August 2021? Invalid? It’s a large peer reviewed trial. If you can criticise it from a scientific point of view I’m all ears.
Ivermectin is out of patent. I’m sure you know the Australian TGA system well, it requires a sponsor with a brief of how it should be administered. Why would a pharmaceutical company go to such lengths if every other company that stood to profit form Ivermectin usage profit for their due diligence and expense? Good will?
Do you dispute the peer reviewed article that I linked? Are you a disbeliever in peer reviewed medicine?
Hey supafreak. Who else is in on this grand conspiracy and what have they got to gain from keeping effective drugs out of the hands of patients? WHO? Lancet? Hospitals? other drug companies? Millions of doctors obviously. Australian govt? I'm sure Soros is involved somehow.
Aren't we lucky to have two plucky non-medically trained people blowing the whistle on this huge crime on a surf website forum.
Is that all ya got ? Really ? Come on you can do better that that . There is no conspiracy just no real money to be made , why are there now major trials being conducted ? How are African countries going to afford $700 per patient ? Ivermectin will be a third world country drug and the new drugs hitting the market under EUA will be for the west . No conspiracy just profit before patients.
Hutchy it’s good to find validating information out there with so many doctors and scientists now agreeing .
The vaccines are not working and are creating more of a problem .
I have actually felt for a long time that flu strains have gotten stronger since they started vaccinating against the flu . Similar stuff I feel. They just keep on mutating .
When I think about the person who has largely been funding these vaccines and advocating -Bill gates and his company Gavi-I only need to look to his career and where he started .. he is basically a tech nerd who believes tech can save the world . A software developer who got greedy. As of May this year he is worth 147 billion dollars . Ffs. Why does anybody need that much money . Greed.
Life becomes a monthly subscription, or a new update .. much like how the vaccine is looking to be - “boosters” aka “updates “ . Reckon it’s all linked. You only have to see where some his interests lie- Artificial intelligence and Agritech . He calls it philanthropy but I would say it’s power and control over other people’s lives. He has a lazy eye - dishonest !
Sadly humans are becoming slaves to tech . Biggest revolution in my time . In the last ten years it has skyrocketed . Not everyone had a mobile phone back then and people weren’t addicted to them and weren’t relying on social media for socialising. We fed the monster and now it controls us . Now it won’t be long here in Australia until you have to have a green tick on your phone app to have a cup of coffee down the street let alone get on an airplane . Police are already patrolling cafes in France .It’s actually pretty scary when you think just how far it could go . And the sad thing is that children are growing up into this now mad world .. the freedoms we had will be gone and we are let it happen .
how's the tone?
the condescending explanation? ...like everyone has no idea...
from the cunt with no idea...
"You really don't understand how power works..."
Hey supafreak, Did you ever wonder why the medical insurance companies aren't screaming about this "situation" you describe? they' be getting absolutely hosed if your theory was true. And if your theory is true, every single western govt is happy to pay some foreign drug company $700 a treatment rather than $2. Please please please, let us know why they'd do that. Call me crazy, but I'd assume Western Governments would prefer to use that money at home to stimulate economies and improve their chances of re-election.
Maybe, just maybe, you're absolutely full of shit and all those medical experts are actually correct and there isn't some grand conspiracy to prevent the use of Ivermectin.
care to explain why health insurance companies would give a fuck?
Sorry to disappoint you VL but I’m medically trained (in Australia!). The article I linked is peered reviewed.
Frequently seemingly concrete evidence is contradicted with larger trials. Keep an open mind, evidence based medicine is sometimes fleeting and open to change. But the latest, along with many other smaller trial points in the favour of Ivermectin.
With such a low complication rate and significant evidence in its favour, would you consider taking Ivertmectin if you actually tested positive for Covid?
With respect, you’ve been a little bit evasive answering my direct questions.
Ivermectin has an incredibly low complication rate yet seeming positive effects, surely you don’t dispute this?
It seems to also have a preventative effect towards long Covid. I guess if you get Covid and then get long Covid I’m sure you’ll be very happy in that you’ve made a risk assessment and accepted the consequences.
But you haven’t addressed my questions: Do you dispute the peer reviewed article that I posted and if so how?
What does it take for the TGA to approve a drug for a specific use?
I am speculating that you won’t directly address these questions and unfortunately if not your credibility will be quite rightly forever in question
You do realise health insurance companies pay for the medical treatment of their customers sypkan?
Please tell me you've worked that out.
No one is preventing ivermectin use , it just needs a prescription and is being prescribed in the US and Australia . The Australian government said they would welcome any Pharma company that wants to submit ivermectin for covid treatment just do the trials and submit application . Cost is about 20 million for trials then tga has a charge to review submission . Who is going to spend money on something that has low low profit and any other company can produce ? I think you are a bit naive when it comes to business . At the moment governments are paying $3000++ for remdesivir which has been proven to be useless.
I was looking at some stats from my work today. In excess of a couple of hundred people who have had 1 or 2 shots of Pfizer or AZ. Some people have had a rough day or so. No one has reported any long term side-effects. We’ve got one self-identified ‘vax hesitant’ bloke. Not sure if it’s medically related or just caution.
I’ve heard no cases of strong reactions to either vax lasting more than 1-2 days in my extended family and friends either.
Not saying it doesn’t happen. Just haven’t heard of it. (Yet?)
...well thanks for not using 'stupid' and 'idiot' in addressing my clearly stupid and idiotic question...
(thankfully, your tone (again...), makes it clear I'm your intellectual junior... and the question is clearly stupid... because it's always important to ascertain that first...)
but do humour me...
"You do realise health insurance companies pay for the medical treatment of their customers sypkan?
Please tell me you've worked that out."
you sure about that?
You have many questions Dr Dick but you never answer the questions that I’ve put forward so it’s night night from me .
Supe, I would have thought $20M for trials is a drop in the ocean for what Covid is costing the world, but I am not saying you're wrong about Ivermectin. It would be great if you are right and it solves our problems.
A few pages back the topic of India's recovery from their Covid spike came up. The following is one explanation people might be interested in.
https://www.aap.com.au/no-proof-ivermectin-and-hydroxy-regime-led-to-cov...
All the best,
Mr NB
"You have many questions Dr Dick but you never answer the questions that I’ve put forward so it’s night night from me ."
sadly, so so true...
he reminds me of a couple of other cultists...
Sypkan -was that directed at me?
"No one is preventing ivermectin use" Ha Ha. You do know it's not been approved as a treatment for Covid all around the world. (Because there's no solid evidence showing it's an effective treatment)
You then claim trials are price prohibitive, despite the fact that there's trials going on all around the world. You even linked them 2 hours ago.
Then you claimed there's no profit for Ivermectin in an "effective" treatment for Covid, despite hundreds of millions of patients requiring an effective treatment for Covid. You do realise drug companies could charge seriously good money for good treatments.
Go to bed Supafreak. You're drunk.
not at all saltyone
health insurance brains...
please explain
why would they give a fuck?
“Because there's no solid evidence showing it's an effective treatment”
Careful VL, there’s plenty of evidence that it is an effective treatment. And you’re still not answering my questions. Pretending you haven’t read my questions? What is your critique of the most recent trial (nearly 4000 participants) published on 5th August?
Invalid, despite the fact it’s peer reviewed?
@mr nobody, I posted an article that pulled apart the AAP story but unfortunately it now has a paywall . Yes 20 million would be cheap compared to the money the government has spent so why didn’t the Australian government do its own trials when Melbourne had 700 + cases a day ? Professor Borody wrote to Hunt and Andrew’s and didn’t get a reply . It’s apparently not how the TGA works , they are funded by charging sponsors who submit drugs for review . Drug companies are simply not interested in off patent drugs. I have actually written to the TGA about 4 weeks ago asking why Professor Borody’s combination therapy was never looked at but until now no response . If trials that are currently running by the Oxford group and the NIH prove ivermectin is effective in early treatment then our world best expert’s are going to have some explaining to do . The AAP is also part of the TNI Trusted news initiative
DR Dick you are getting more ridiculous as the night goes on . In Australia, one of the few doctors brave enough to use the drug to treat patients and save lives, Dr Mark Hobart, was reported to the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency (AHPRA). Thankfully, AHPRA advised that there had been no infringement. Indeed, federal Health Minister Greg Hunt wrote to one of the doctors in Australia who prescribes ivermectin confirming that he was aware that some physicians are prescribing ivermectin off-label for Covid and that they were quite within their rights as the practice of prescribing registered medicines outside of their approved indications is not regulated or controlled by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), it is at the discretion of the prescribing physician. Yet the silence persists. Ivermectin is the drug that dare not speak its name. https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/07/hunt-goes-off-script-with-ivermectin/ Do you really believe ivermectin isn’t used to treat covid patients in the US ?
link it champ. that's you tylerdurden
He already has , do you know how to scroll backwards ?
I was a little shocked at Alan Joyce (CEO Qantas) announcement that international travelers will be required to have a covid 19 vaccination in order to travel on Qantas flights . The government wanted to have mandatory vaccination but after the bumbling of its release ( it was painful to watch the delivery of that announcement ) they withdrew the mandatory part but it seems Qantas and other business may demand a vaccination in order to use their services. I’m not anti vaccine by any means I just don’t trust this government or a vaccine that has been rushed through. A jab followed by another jab followed by yearly jabs doesn’t sit well with me as I have never had a flu shot or the flu for more than 20 years. Plus I don’t want to give this shot to my healthy 4 year old daughter. She is up to date with all her vaccinations but this covid vaccine is new and not being around for decades like the others. Tuberculosis remains the number one as far diseases go and you don’t need proof of vaccination to travel so what is going on ?