Turnbull and Trump
There is no queues, as we know it's run more like a lottery you apply to be resettled and wait for your number to come up, however the odds are slim that your number will come up quickly and could take even ten years or more.
Hence why some who can afford to try to bypass this lottery and buy a golden ticket with a guaranteed win do, in the past this has been possible, but it's no longer the case the ticket are no longer golden they are closer to bronze and getting on a boat doesn't mean you will get one, in most cases it just means you will blow good cash on a return trip from Indo to Indo, you can be certain people smugglers don't give their money back, more chance they get charged extra for something silly like they used more fuel getting back because of the extra weight and needed to provide food and water.
As for regional processing why would any country for example Indonesia or Malaysia ever want to support regional processing?
What's in it for them?
The incentives would have to be huge to compensate for the negatives it would cause (i don't even think there is a big enough incentive), yes they would initially get rid of the refugees stuck in their countries, but they are not silly once word gets out many many more will come and the numbers of refugees in their countries will become bigger, despite what many think Indonesia doesn't want refugees in their country, once they run out of money they become Indonesia's problem they may turn to crime or work illegally or cause conflict and social problems, or they end up with nowhere to go often ending up stuck in one of Indonesia's 13 detention centres that are already full, full in an Indonesian sense not a western sense, which means ten times past the limit of our full.
Yes Indonesia has detention centres and obviously they would make Aussie run centre look like the Hilton.
While you have a yearly intake and a cap on numbers you will always end up with a backlog, countries in our area know this, hence why it hasn't and wont happen.
I was never a fan or never voted for Johnny, but no blame can be put on him, he didn't invent the problem, he just dealt with a developing problem which is actually quite smart, rather than letting it get out of control then trying to fix it, but yes off course where possible any issue is used in politics to gain advantage or try to make the other party look bad (hence the drowning at sea thing), that's the nature of politics.
Yes there has always been refugees but the problem has become more of a world problem rather than regional problem in part to the change of the world through easier and faster transport from A to B and more importantly through the event of things like the internet and how easily information is now spread.
The issue of 457 Visa etc is important but it's not really related to refugees issue, although you can be certain those who could apply for resettlement as a refugee if they have the skills and know how take the easier route of applying for a 457 visa first, and possibly when their contract is up some may claim refugee status saying it is not safe to go home and claim to be a refugee and apply for a protection visa to stay.
It's like that old stupid left cleache, "more refugees come by plane than boat".
Um Hello...EVERY REFUGEE Australia accepts comes by plane, do you think once their relevant Visa is issued they come via boat?...no off course not they arrive by plane.
Inzider is right, indo..... You have no fuckn idea. Totally "triggered"..
You write "All that said i think technically once they turn down resettlement options like they have for resettlement in countries signed to the refugee convention such as PNG or Cambodia then their refugee status should become void "
But Indo, they were picked up in Aussie waters........ Aussie waters.... Not PNG waters... Not Cambodian waters....
And is Cambodia and PNG dropping bombs in the middle east? Are they helping create the refugees? No... they are not....
But if more troops DO go to the middle east, so that Australia can secure the USA deal, it will be people like you and your constant pressure on the government to "make boat people vanish" that will be responsible for any deaths of our troops, injuries, and ptsd suicides years into the future.
Yes they were picked up in Australian waters which means we have to deal with them, (lesson learnt) the government finds them a country to be resettled in that is signed to the refugee convention.
If you are a refugee you are seeking a safe refuge, if say PNG is not a safe refuge then why is it able to signed to the refugee convention?
It's not..oh sorry not interested in Cambodia or PNG I'm after a developing country.
That's called country shopping.
You always go back to the we are dropping bombs bullshit, you know jack shit about the reality of issues in the middle east as i know jack shit, its all second hand info and second hand opinions like i have said before unless you have been there and spent heaps of time and have a deep grasp of the history we all have no idea really.
Most middle east countries have been in conflict for basically forever and most likely always will even if America and Australia left them to fight on their own.
As for sending more troops, we always basically do what USA wants, if they really want us to do something we will do it, there doesn't need to be deals.
As for deaths of troops, injuries, PSTD suicides etc the only person responsible would be the individual themselves who decided to sign up and get trained to become basically a killer or part of a force aimed to kill others, if you don't want to or are not prepared to go to war, then don't sign up its real simple.
It's not the same as say my old man who has PTSD because he got conscripted to fight in Vietnam he didn't really have a choice unless he went bush or skipped the country.
We will fight them on the beaches...otherwise they will kill us all.
NUT-shell?
Yes Zenagit ,heard many a story from the horses mouth while I was in Nauru .Got to know many refugees like Iraqi soldier who fought alongside marines and ozzies then had to bolt or head was coming off. So he had some coin to get a boat seat ,then for riskin his life fighting with a bullshit war with USA and OZ etc he gets to rot on Nauru.
Yeah ive got some stories. Real fuckin stories you keyaunt.
Good for you legend.
Maybe if you weren't just so fucking rude about it. Do you speak to everybody that way or just people you don't know on the internet?
You can be equally offensive on the internet by the ideas and arguments presented, no matter how sugar coated they are in the disguise of a "so called" reasonable debate.
Every forum website have them; people who present themselves and their ideas as reasonable, but if you read their contributions on a range of topics over a period of time themes and patterns emerge which show a different picture, a picture which shows a bias or prejudice which in fact may not all that reasonable. These people think they are being cleaver but they (and their agendas) become transparent to the regular reader.
Swellnet has its share.
Yes Zenagit ,heard many a story from the horses mouth while I was in Nauru .Got to know many refugees like Iraqi soldier who fought alongside marines and ozzies then had to bolt or head was coming off. So he had some coin to get a boat seat ,then for riskin his life fighting with a bullshit war with USA and OZ etc he gets to rot on Nauru.
Yeah ive got some stories. Real fuckin stories you keyaunt.
Cheers Zen
To be honest his insults didn't really bother me.
Most people base their views on emotion on this topic, it's natural to base their views on what they see in front of them and what the media shows and peddles, which is all about those in offshore detention.
Rarely if ever do people actually sit down and think about the bigger picture, or think about the result of all the actions they want. (resettlement of refugees in offshore detention in Australia and quick processing and resettlement in Australia of refugees that arrive by boat)
A big reason for this i guess is people can only relate to what they know and understand, people just assume most refugees can afford to travel and pay people smugglers, because in the west most of us can afford to travel and most of us have an income, even a few thousands dollars is no big deal.
If people understood that it's not the reality in many countries that most refuges cant afford the luxury of travel and most sure do not have thousands of dollars to pay people smugglers
, then possibly they may start thinking about how unfair their views are.
The media and government never help on this view, I'm not sure if this will ever change, i hope it does i think the best way would be for the stories of those less fortunate to be told.
Lets hear the stories from refugees in refugee camps, especially those waiting to be processed.
Lets ask them if they think it would be fair that they wait while those in offshore detention are processed and resettled?
Lets show them conditions in detention centres and ask them what they think?
Lets ask them if they would be happy to be resettled in PNG or Cambodia?
Lets ask them why they don't travel and pay people smugglers?
I really hope we get to see this side of the debate raised in mainstream media and that people become more educated on this issue.
Rather the the current ignorant BS.
BTW Inzider all refugees on Nauru and Manus are there by choice they can leave at any time and have refused resettlement options in both PNG and Nauru.
Nobody is left to rot on Nauru, it is there choice they could be starting a new life in PNG or Cambodia but decided that these countries are not too their liking.
Tripper
New life in Nauru
pretty sure you wouldn't like a new life there
You got no idea what that island is really like
Fuck the Australian govt
Complete wankers won't let them go to nz. It a fuckin disgrace the whole saga
Sorry my mistake was in a rush, edited now that was obviously meant to be Cambodia, not Nauru.
Their actions are in contrast to your views, if Nauru was so bad they would have taken up resettlement options in PNG or Cambodia.
inzider.....what do you mean "new life in nauru"? we are talking about refugees fleeing war. when the conflict ends they have the opportunity to return home.
What did you do on Nauru Inzider? Were you an advocate for a New Zealand NGO aligned with the UNHCR or were you a sub-contractor with Serco drawing a hefty salary and distance allowance off the back of the Australian taxpayer?
Tell us about your travels to the Gaziantep camp or maybe Zaatari? Did you listen to their stories too?
And I'm guessing you're writing all this from your batch just outside of Gisborne and not evil Australia. You wouldn't dare take one cent from those filthy Aussies 'eh?
Hypocrite.
..."The media and government never help on this view..." where else in the world are the media and government being criticised right now? #alternativefacts
"Lets hear the stories from refugees in refugee camps, especially those waiting to be processed .... what camps?, what queues? what processing? #alternativefacts
Talk to me inzider, I'm a refugee. What do you reckon you know.
Ok, you have spoken to some but is that enough to understand what is to be a refugee. You maybe isolating your self to just one event of this, namely Manus Is or PNG. What about the many others. One fundamental point you ignore, is that we are a refugee because we are trying to save our lives. You know the lives lost here and being lost in the Med, as we speak. It's that, that is the issue. To save lives.
"Every forum website have them; people who present themselves and their ideas as reasonable, but if you read their contributions on a range of topics over a period of time themes and patterns emerge which show a different picture, a picture which shows a bias or prejudice which in fact may not be all that reasonable. These people think they are being clever but they (and their agendas) become transparent to the regular reader.
Swellnet has its share."
SPOT FUCKEN ON, Smiley.
(Pardon my French)
(Actually, drawing maybe not that long a bow, if the Swellnet forums were Vichy France, I wonder who'd be who in THAT hypothetical zoo? Collaborator or resistance? J'accuse!)
@Guy smiley
Stop spinning crap and trying to distort the conversation, it's quite obvious Australian media is only interested in showing one view point and one snap shot of a complex and vast issue, generally the political side of things the one that sells paper or generates clicks, that's just how it works.
It's not fake media or alternative facts, it's just the bigger picture is not shown the stories are not heard.
Aren't you interested in hearing the other side of things?
Or maybe you are so ignorant you don't even agree or understand that the majority of refugees are stuck close to the countries they fled?
Or perhaps you just have the typical out of sight out of mind view?
Yes it's much easier for you to push the reality aside.
When i use the term refugee camp, i use it loosely it covers any area where refugees congregate generally just outside the countries they have fled, be it an official camp that has been in existing for a long long time, or a temporary settlement, it can be official or not official. (google the topic if you want learn more)
Personally i think you are just trolling me baiting me with silly post.
Actually talking turkey when he put that post up, you were the first person that came to mind, you always come across as very negative with post that don't make much sense or silly riddle type post or satirical silly videos that have nothing to do with the topic.
I rarely get involved in these political discussions, i post in a range of subjects including in surf related articles/stories, vids etc
While there is quite a few posters here that rarely if ever post under surf related articles/stories or surf related threads and just stick to the political threads and normally just post negative remarks about anything and everything or just seem to want to argue or show others how clever they are.
Generally on topics and about issues in countries they have never even been, but yep they are experts.
"You know the lives lost here and being lost in the Med, as we speak. It's that, that is the issue. To save lives."
TB. dont try it on. australia's conversation about "deaths at sea" was merely a tactic to skew the conversation away from talking about actual solutions whilst attempting to look humanitarian. the refugees are entitled to risk their own lives. that is their choice. unlike the UNHCR we shouldn't portray that somehow we're doing the right thing by them by discouraging their risky transit only to leave them no other solution at the same time. their death at sea has nothing to do with us or anyone but the refugees themselves and the people smugglers that their families paid money too.
@Indo, please never operate in the mistaken belief others know less about this or any other topic here when defending the generalisations and sweeping statements you make e.g. the role of the media and government or people waiting patiently for their turn in the queue. It lessens your argument and rightfully opens you up to criticism. Full stop.
@Turks, darn right there. Mmm, as they say, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Some keep on trying thou!
Well its hard not too when you suggest silly things like you did with this statement
"Lets hear the stories from refugees in refugee camps, especially those waiting to be processed .... what camps?, what queues? what processing? #alternativefacts
How is this alternative facts?
BTW stop saying queue I've never said there is a queue, we both know it's run like a lottery, you enter and wait for your number.
It doesn't work in a first in first served, or last in last served basis.
However if you were to process people who arrive by boat you would need to do it in a queue like system, otherwise you could end up with one guy who arrived last week number coming up before someone that might have waited years.
And Guy, never operate under the mistaken belief that peoples opinions are less valid than yours because they don't align with your particular bias.
And Zen, there are facts and then there are opinions, generalisations and sweeping statements. Best we all stick to the facts.
Agreed.
Unhcr are toothless
no-ones perfect, and a point of view, right or wrong is there for discussion and always open to opinion. without knowledge the facts aren't gunna change
@ Guy Smiley
It's extremely easy to say that, but you have done absolutely nothing to prove any of my points are not correct or that they are generalisations or sweeping statements.
Lets go back to your only vaguely constructive post on the issue, i have given you reasons why regional processing is not a realistic option and why places like Indonesia have not agreed to these types of proposals. (That have been suggested and I'm sure Australia has tried to get happening in Malaysia, Indonesia, East Timor or at least the media have reported this)
Explain to me why i am wrong and explain what would be in it for say Indonesia to have a regional processing centre and explain how they could deal with the overflow and backlog created by encouraging rather than discouraging refugees to the region. (and please dont deny there would not be an overflow, we saw under Rudd how quickly policy can influence the flow of refugees trying to get to Australia)
BTW. first lets ensure we are on the same page with what regional processing is, to me regional processing would be done in a regional processing centre where refuges could go to and be processed before they got on a boat and not necessarily include lodging and meal, healthcare etc
@Indo, you are very welcome to your opinions but they are just that opinions. Opinions presented as facts are #alternativefacts. I would be a lot happier reading your posts if you just said 'in my opinion' based on my experience or reading etc. You surf Blacks today?
ha ha that's a name i haven't heard for a long time, no i haven't surfed there for a longtime, unless you are dedicated to surfing it all the time you just end up with the scraps, i try to avoid surfing weekends anyway unless the beachies are offshore.
Happyas, yes, you can ignore and dismiss the deaths but maybe find the facts. Find out exactly what the refugee is escaping from. Again, you have played politics. You just don't want to seem to know what the issue is. It seems that in the deal with the US, Aus will actually taken more refugees, a good thing, I suggest.
There you go @Indo, there will be no arguing over this
"Happyas, yes, you can ignore and dismiss the deaths but maybe find the facts. Find out exactly what the refugee is escaping from. Again, you have played politics. You just don't want to seem to know what the issue is. It seems that in the deal with the US, Aus will actually taken more refugees, a good thing, I suggest."
dude im lost. what point are you trying to make? are you saying i dont know the facts of drownings off australian waters, or are you trying to say that some US/AUS deal for a couple of thousand refugees is helping to solve the crisis? just make some clear point dude with your actual opinion. im 2 glasses into a bottle of red, and im not good at solving cryptic puzzles. :)
South end Bondi ?
Express Point
IMO :P
I dont mean to sound heartless, but i don't buy this deaths at sea stuff, yeah sure it can happen we know that.
But what i mean is come on lets be real, the government(liberal or labor) doesn't really care all that much about the deaths at sea of refugees (as in people), that's not why we deal with the issue the way we do, we don't have the policy we do to ensure people don't drown or even to stop people smugglers, they are just excuses.
IMO we deal with the issue the way we do mostly because of other issues.
Deaths at sea is just something opposing parties use against each other for political gain, they don't care because the people die, they care because it makes them look bad and the other party can use it against them..
If the main reason we have the policy we do is to prevent deaths at sea or even to stop people smugglers, we would work with Indonesia and provide a ferry service provided at a price that undercuts people smugglers and ensures refugee arrive in Australia safely and allow them to do it without a visa or even a passport, this would also take away other risk like quarantine breaches.
But that said it would possibly come with the same problems as regional processing centres would in Indonesia, encouraging more and more refugees to come to Indonesia, so unless Australia could ensure we don't have a cap on numbers so the backlog doesn't get stuck in Indonesia i doubt Indonesia would ever agree, and we are obviously never going to agree to not cap numbers.
So yeah i guess that will never happen either.
East Timor though....Australia would have much more bargaining power with East Timor, basically a failed state and Australia could use the border and gas fields dispute to negotiate, same deal with a regional processing centre much more likely to happen in East Timor if it ever was going to happen, extremely doubtful though..
BTW. Guy Smiley why the change in profile names?
Blowin you're not naming waves in photographs are you?!
Apparently not !
Been getting some waves , Goofy ?
indo...its even worse than you say. the deaths at sea argument is a con developed to support the patrol policy. both sides have used it to their own advantage. the australian people in their hearts knew it was a con too, but just didnt want to admit it because it conveniently avoids a complex ugly discussion involving topics such as fear, greed, and racism, not to mention spending time researching the wider world that isnt our little pocket here. all the stuff we've spent over 18 months talking about here on swellnet. these are the types of discussions that cause public unrest because it makes you put down your beer and start questioning who you and your fellow man really are. politicians dont like difficult questions.
@blowin
Not too many, nothing to get excited about anyway
"Deaths at sea" is to get the other half of the voting population on board par the pun where as the other half of the voting population really don't seem to care. It's sad but true. Refugees/ asylum seekers are unfortunately the fulcrum to political leverage. IMO you can let as many people into this country as you like but it is still not going to solve the root of the problem.
Many of these people would not be fleeing their home lands if there was no threat to theirs and their families safety and wellbeing . I am 100 percent against turning back boats and or sending refugees to offshore processing . This has proven only to be a short term and costly dampener of the real problem. To stop the mass aversion of persecution first world Governments need to construct more policy around conflict aversion/resolution and keep their nose out of other countries issues. If they are not part of the solution clearly they are a part of the problem.
Sorry Nick but IMO that's just totally idealistic and not realistic at all.
Yes it would be great if first world governments stayed out of conflicts that don't involve them, but, you will still have millions of refugees, and the problem will continue to increase.
(And that said, that's a real simple view even without first world involvement in disputes it doesn't mean things will get better, it could actually create more refugees, but thats a whole other topic)
No human race in the world is immune to conflict be it religious or political or other issues that cause people to become refugees, natural disasters, famine, disputes over land and resources etc.
As population increases so does conflict and diminished resources etc and the displacement of people, like it or not the problem will continue to increase.
Your right Indo it wouldn't ever be a blanket solution. I agree that people are fleeing persecution for all manner of reasons, however part of the problem is first world governments are asserting their perceived authority in issues that have nothing to do with us.
Ok so here goes I'm just putting it out there... what would the refugee situation look like if we didn't have such a reliance on fossil fuels?
Or if we didn't have religion?
Or even multiculturalism? (which i am a big fan off, but really if we all stuck to the areas we originated from a lot of these problems wouldn't be a problem)
You could even go as far saying advances in things like medicine or transport and communication etc have contributed to the problem.
I dont really want to get in the dispute of whether first world governments make problems worse or better, in theory id say yes better to not get involved and there is surely many instances where first world governments make things worse or thats how it appears, but i think that's probably a naive view.
If you want to simplify it, if there is a dispute in the playground and the biggest kid in the school is beating up the smallest kid, do you and your friends stand back and let the big kid beat him up knowing he has no chance or do you all get involved and try to stop the fight or give the big kid some of his own medicine?
Yes that's simplifying it, but you get my point.
Refugee sounds like lepers. What a fecking disgrace. Human beings. Human beings are what we are talking about. How as a species can we allow our fellow brothers and sisters and children to exist like this. No matter what justification and bullshitting laws we use as excuses. We are heartless prejudiced and unloving. Every human deserves a home and there is enough land and money to make it a reality. Gaia Will not tolerate humanitys lack of love much longer. A population cleanse is on it's way and it won't be an act of god bit an effect of humanity 's selfishness. Cause and effect includes how we fail to treat others so let's get off our arse and give others at least a home and some dignity. Fuck the ethnic fear and embrace their humanity.
Seems to be that no one on this blog is a refugee. The key point is, Happyas, that a refugee prime aim is to stay alive. It's the life that needs to maintained then whatever solutions are set in place to maintain that life. The solutions used is a totally different issue and in fact secondary to firstly maintaining the life.
Dave if there were a thumbs up icon that I could apply to your comment it would get ha big fat one and even a few shakkas! Well said ....you can have the next set.... as long as you go left. ;)
It's very easy to say things like that Dave but really they are just idealistic words that make people feel good, we can all say things like that, then sit back and feel all nice and fuzzy then point our fingers at the government and say you suck, you are cruel heartless bastards etc.
We can all do that because we don't have to deal with the problem, but the government does.
Remember there is over 65 million displaced people in the world.
Even if all the developed countries of the world got together and split the load between then, it would still be chaos, and there would be huge issues to deal with.
Even if we said our share was only a few million, imagine the impact suddenly a few million more people.
Public infrastructure: already it's not keeping up with population growth, roads, public transport, schools, hospitals etc
Housing: Already expensive imagine adding another few million people that need housing.
Water: Already have shortages.
Thats without getting into the social issues, environmental issues etc
TB. people die everyday all over the world. why isn't Merkel getting crucified for causing countless drownings? because she didnt cause them, that why. even humanitarian policies have collateral damage. "saving lives at sea" both missed the whole point and worse still it gave our politicians an easy out when faced with questions about policy motivation. typical mantra crap.
.