Did the Surf Industry Kill the Future of Wetsuits?
A thought-provoking article from Online that could possibly be well-hidden advertorial.
Two American kinesiology professors have reportedly debunked the standard configuration for neoprene wetsuits, insisting it's "not driven by science".
Their claims would appear to have merit, that being the parts of the body most immersed in cold water - legs, hips, buttocks - should have the thicker neoprene while the thickness reduces moving up the body.
This design has apparently been done by Hurley with little market success - admittedly on the back of very little marketing. However, the movement of athletes and management from Hurley to Florence Marine X has seen the idea invigorated.
Thus the kicker: Florence Marine X are making said wetsuit.
Even if it is advertorial it's worth a read and a ponder.
Comments
2mm on your upper body and arms in the middle of winter? Sounds very chilli.
Maybe real world testing is more effective than a tank protected from wind chill.
"Newcomer and Nessler used thermal sensors to collect data on regional skin temperatures in recreational surfers wearing 2-millimeter wetsuits.
The data showed that the average surfer didn’t need the extra millimeters around their core (unless perhaps they were riding waves near the Arctic Circle). Instead, they needed the thickest neoprene over the lower half of their body—the calves, thighs, stomach, and lower back. Those were the regions submerged in water for the most amount of time and consequently the areas that lost the most heat. Those regions also received the least exposure to the sun and weren’t utilized as much as the upper body’s paddling muscles.
(When researchers have tracked surfers’ activity, they’ve found that surfers spend the majority of time paddling during a session, followed by sitting idle. They only actually surf between 2 percent and 5 percent of the time.)"
Did the researchers test for Wettie Warmers?
mine only warm the areas submerged, and generally only when idle.
Thats a big FAIL for the JJF R&D team not to capture wettie warmer data in cold waters, perhaps the report would read:
"Over an average 2 hour surf, pending shark activity, cold water surfer urinate in their wetsuits on average 1.8 times per surf. This provides them with approximately 380 mils of urine that is captured within the wetsuit, thereby heating the surfer. The urine is approximately 37 degrees, and can warm the surfer for about 5 minutes. Further, once the dissipation of the urine occurs it can warm anyone who sits in, or paddles through the 'warm patch'. Given this new data set, we recommend the following neoprene spread: 2mm on the legs, and 3mm on the upper extremities".
1k wetsuits? Oof! JJ out-doing Kelly!
Lurv dis hi-farshun!
Might make sense if you've got cold water and warm air...
But generally (in my normal stomping grounds), through winter the water is warmer than the air, at least for early mornings.
Add to that wind-driven evaporation (latent heat transfer --> skin cooling), and I'd guess that you'd typically lose more heat through the bits above the water.
(Experience says the same too - I'm sure I'm not the only person who's jumped off my board to sit neck deep in the water in between sets on a cold morning!?)
+ Flexibility - need more flex in the hips, legs and arms than the torso.
My experience too Pops.
By a large factor.
Winter dawn patrols here, and the water temp is 20.
Air temp low single figures, apparent with wind chill close to zero or just below.
You want the warmth up top.
I dont mind the sound of 20 degree dawn patrol temp..
That’s our summer temperature when I wear a springy
Same same prefer a long arm springer to short arm steamer I’m in nnsw too. Air temp and wind chill big factors. Used a neoprene hat thing and booties in cold climes makes a huge difference to preserving body temp and comfort and most important water time
Same, back beach. In Sydney I only have long arm springy and steamers. Short arm long leg makes no sense to me.
Stay in boardies and vests as long as I can too.
Water is ~24 times more thermally conductive than air. Something to think about.
True, but in windy conditions, the air around you is moving way faster than the water (especially when you're just sitting out the back) which means the 'boundary layer' of surface warmth you generate (slowing heat transfer) gets ripped away and you lose heat faster.
I'd be super curious to know what combos of conditions would lead to losing more heat from top half vs bottom half. On a calm day I assume it's massively due to the water, but windy days... not so sure!
What a load of shit. You pay me enough I'll debunk it. Come on JJ you don't need the cash that bad.
If I was ever gonna get stiffed out of a dollar, I'd like to think JJ would never be behind it.
If I only actually surfed between 2-5 % of my time out there like their study shows I don’t think I’d bother surfing! Definitely colder sitting up out of the water with windchill than in the water.
Hey mr mick,
If you ride, say, 10 waves/hour x 15 seconds length of ride =150 seconds of ride per hour.
150 /3600 secs =0.042 >>> 4.2% of your time surfing.
Thanks Guine, now i have to give up surfing! ....... are you the real Dr Karl ?
Yep, I wish i was surfing 2% of the time.
Stu wrote an article some time back titled something like ‘The 1%ers’, talking about this subject. My comment at the time was that very few surfers would get 1% surfing time in any surf.
Bizarre that the first models released to consumers didn’t comprise a 4mm composition thickness anywhere. If they’re serious about tackling being cold in the water at least start by designing something you can actually use in properly cold water. Although, I think they’re on track with aiming to keep the extremities warmer - no point having flexible neoprene on the knees if you’re too cold to move in the first place. They talk about body scanning for fittings, if they could do this so that booties fit better they’d be on to something….
With wind chill here its below zero in winter. I'd probably die. Although, I'd look good doing it in one of the JJF wetsuits. I find the biggest thing is fit, and quality of neoprene e.g., highest grade Yamamoto is extraordinary and you can deal with pretty much anything (including Icelandic winters!)
Sealed suits are the greatest in winter. If paddling is affected, try more foam in your boards to get onto the bigger waves.
Dead right, don't get the flush and you can keep warm. I surfed last winter in a 3/2 Bongalong graphine top shelf and it was fine. Amazing suit it took me 1/2 hour to put it on first time and now wraps like a glove and warm. One really cold day I put the 4/3 on (for wind chill) and I couldn't paddle it was so thick. Needless to say I was back in the Bong next surf!
just got 4/3 Bong super flexi but too bloody hot
It's interesting to read. Like all studies, you need to dig in to the details to see if the claims are well backed by what they actually studied.
A few things about the data: 2mm wetsuits, generally in water between 16-20C with air usually a few degrees warmer and low average wind speeds, with data only from the first 40min of a session. So, the actual weather conditions are ones that directly lead to lower body cooling, regardless of wetsuit design. They go on to acknowledge that surfing biases arm activation which will keep the upper body warmer overall (my huge question was: where's your no-wetsuit control to show us how the body naturally prioritises heat/blood flow when surfing without a wetty?).
The main reason they seem to claim you need more thickness low down is to keep the legs warm so that standing up/pumping on a wave isn't done with chilled leg muscles. That's a fair enough claim from a performance perspective, but I assume thicker wetsuits may also impede movement, so there's diminishing returns of that approach.
For me as a Victorian in winter, where the air can be colder than the water and windy as hell, and I want to sustain myself for longer than 40 mins, I suspect retaining all the heat I generate in my core and arms goes a long way to letting me remain in the water and still function. Thicker legs, where I don't generate heat, and thinner core/arms, where I do, = more heat loss, surely?
Fake news, conspiracy scientists do not know more than surfers. Gotta say new Billabong 3/2 with graghine is warmer than a standard 3/4. Science is the key just like in cars we are still playing with fire like cave men. Electricity in its essence is as fast as light, you want a fast car tap into that power.
Out of the water....
Ever worn a puffer vest? Or any short sleeve top? The shirt was invented not just to hide those naughty boobies. If the core is warm, the legs and arms barely notice cool or cold air.
But genuinely cold legs become clumsy, so loose performance surfing past say 40 minutes in cold water is a challenge.
You had me at puffer vest.
"The data showed that the average surfer didn’t need the extra millimeters around their core (unless perhaps they were riding waves near the Arctic Circle). Instead, they needed the thickest neoprene over the lower half of their body—the calves, thighs, stomach, and lower back."
Aren't the stomach and lower back part of, or most of, the core?
that's what I thought too
Majority of heat is lost out your head.
Apparently not, it is like any other part of the body you lose heat in relation to the limb (or noggin) that is exposed.
The only science you need to know behind this idea is that when checking the surf on a chilly morning with said wetsuit in hand you ain't going to be wearing a pair of fleece lined pants down below and a singlet up top.
Wind chill always gets me early mornings (5 to 10 degrees), cold water (17 to 16 degree is that cold?) just grinds me down eventually.
I think all of Victoria and South coast of NSW would take water 16-17º and not be ground down at all. 13º water temp is hard work with wind stuck out the back of Bells at 6' plus. Grim.
Yeah happily admit I am a pussy (WA), Victoria / Tas next level still we do get fresh water flowing into some breaks on low tide hurts putting the hands in it paddling out through the inshore not so bad out the back.
I'd be delighted if I ended up with a wetsuit based on science - that was durable; therefore environmentally responsible. The built-in redundancy factor within all of the current product offerings is shocking to me. I have a very flexible, warm suit..no complaints at all on function, it's just that it only lasts two winters?
Very common theme here in the comments by people who actually surf - need to take into account the wind chill factor, sitting for 10 minutes with a chilly winter wind hacking at your upper body. I can't see how 2mm can block that. Also, I find my 4/3 much harder to popup in than my 3/2, due to the extra thickness around the knees and calves. Can't imagine 4mm down there.
I would like to see some experimenting with boots as well. My feet tend to "drag" more when wearing boots while popping up and trimming.
Glue some Lycra to the bottom of your booties which slides easier than the rubber surface. Use contact adhesive. You can get Lycra by the metre at Spotlight and whatever is left over you can make yourself a pair of budge smugglers with!!
"My feet tend to "drag" more when wearing boots while popping up and trimming."
I always hit my big toe on my back foot when getting up with booties on, its amazing what 2-3mm of rubber can do
As someone who spends majority of Vic winter with big jackets and thick jumpers, beanie on, whilst wearing shorts, I'll stick to wetties that are more focused on keeping my core warm than my legs.
I'd steer any scientists looking for research ideas towards combating wind chill.
100%
That's called a handmade Japanese smoothskin steamer. Warm, expensive, and falls apart easily.
Edit: Ah, sorry, Udo. Just saw your comment below.
Shame about longevity but that Smooth Rubber stops all wind chill...and on a cloudy day when the Sun breaks thru the clouds and hits it .....Furnace !
Some things are good in theory but not in practice.
Even in a 5/3 it's always your upper body that is exposed to the wind that gets cold especially arms, shoulders and back, only area that gets real cold below your waist is your feet if not wearing booties.
Gotta be a tougher style of smoothie rubber they can invent,its 2022 ffs. Any thoughts on smoothie inside,instead of fuzz? Quicksilver did "copper" lined wetties back in the early 2000s &from memory they were a joy to get on&off and were extremely warm.
Hi Ray,
There were many companies who used the metallic inner, which I think was a spray over smooth skin neoprene. The issue with this material was the durability. It splits and cuts very easy, just as smoothie does. The double sided jersey is what gives the neoprene its strength.
The metallic skin also wore away after plenty of use. So one or two seasons good then a quick death like most wetsuits.
As per most warranty and care instructions, a good rinse in/out of the suit and dry in windy shade area with a thick/wide hanger will keep its life extended.
Best wetsuits for surfing are made in Japan. It's worth the effort in obtaining one if you can.
I think many of the Triathlon suits are all Smoothies ?
https://wetsuitwarehouse.com.au/collections/triathlon-wetsuits/products/...
Had a couple of those Copper colour lined ones from Triple X ...they were ok.
Hi Udo, See my comments to Ray above :)
2mm just isn’t enough rubber when is cold. Reading all this reminded me of an O'Neill or Ripcurl wetty I had back in the day that had a little pee flap. Problem was when I went to use it the ice cold water came in instantly shrinking my pink bits LOL. Seemed like a great idea until I used it.
Gotta say, I think this is wrong based on a number of factors;
1. Flexibility and movement through the legs and hip flexors (jam this up and your ability to surf well decreases)
2. More often than not it’s windchill as much as water temp that gets you
For an example after surfing big hours over 3 days I suited up in the only suit that was;
1. Dry
2. Would allow more flexibility and movement having totally cooked arms and shoulders
That suit been a 2mm short arm long leg (unsealed). This is in Vicco with water temps hovering around the 15-16 degree mark
100% fine for the first 2 & 1/2 hours, water temp no issue at all, comfortable, feeling the goods. However as soon as that sun moved behind the hills game over! That combined with moderate occasionally gusty offshore breezes and my upper body was feeling it, a few shivers and coldness kicked in on the upper body towards the end of session.
I also have a 2mm full suit and that did the job comfortably until the winds picked up and sun disappeared on another day.. Coldness / windchill was felt through anything more exposed - mainly the upper body. I found myself floating in the ocean up to my chin to remain a little warmer
I think I could almost go through an entire vicco surf season in a brand new high quality 2mm suit (sealed) with booties and a hood to keep the extremities warm provided the wind chill remained low to moderate.. so it’s not so much the water temp as the wind chill that gets you usually and in the top half.
Wore a 2/3 Yulux zipperless once over those 3 days and was way to hot. Surf was reasonably pumping with low crowds so lots of movement playing a small part
It’s a beautiful suit though, feels like absolute silk on and fits like a glove. Highly rate it alongside its sustainability benefits. Cold sun less windy days in the depths of winter will definitely be the go to suit.
Ps. I don’t seem to feel the cold as much as some and I definitely prioritise flexibility and movement over feeling a tiny bit of cold when choosing a suit for a session. I’ll push a thinner suit as far as I can into the depths of winter as long as a shiver doesn’t set in. Flexibility and movement is no good to me if my body stops functioning as required. As much as I hate booties, a hood and booties are critical utilising a thinner suit
Cold water therapy ain’t such a bad thing either as long as you’re at a comfort level where able to function through a full range of surfing movements
I'm with you on this. I use Rip Curl Flashbomb 2/2 steamers and they can take me well into the winter months. I tend to move to a 3/2 EBomb around July/August/September.
But the 2/2 is so flexible and warm and would easily beat a 4/3 from back in the 80's and 90's. Neoprene and lining has def come a long way since those days.
"...kinesiology professors" . Can stop reading there
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-29/evidence-based-care-experts-and-p...
Many of the opinions stated above remind me of the quote:
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
I definitely find wearing a hood makes a big difference particularly in Vic Winter when the wind is up. Although I also wear booties and gloves, I find that gloves don't seem to make much of a difference in terms of duration in the ocean. Coldest day of the year today where I'm from. Brrrrr.
I wonder if materials used in Shark Stop offer any more in way of Warmth.
Testing wetsuits for surfing in a pool is a bad start.
Surely everyone has had the experience of one day fine in 3/2 water temp XX air temp 18c and still. Next day, water temp the same, air temp 13 and howling wind. Need 4/3 on day 2 just to combat the weather, not the water. Happens to me a fair bit here in Vic at start and end of winter.
Just looking at the pics on the website... Is that a seam straight up between the butt cheeks? If so that is asking for trouble. All of my leak issues with sealed suits start in the butt/crotch area. Its a point of massive flex when you consider surfing movements, duckdives, even on sand stretching etc.
Surfed on Tuesday in strong offshores - boots, hood, 4/3. Surfed today, no wind sunny, just a 3/2. Both days around 15 degrees water. Cosy both days.
Both suits are Project Blank High Performance Steamers.
I have some serious issues with this study.
Let's start with the criteria they are measuring the wetsuit performance against. I grew up in SW Vic when wetsuits were not as good as they are now. There are two things that got my grommet-self out of the water on a good day:
A. If my wetsuit was newish and well sealed, and it wasn't super cold air or windy, it was the inability to feel my feet. It's just too hard to surf when your just had no feedback from your feet. Booties bought you more time.
B. If the wetsuit was old, or it was super windy, then my flimsy grommet-self would get the shivers...just too much heat loss for the body to keep up with the heat generation. It only got worrying when the shivering stopped (i.e. hypothermia).
If the problem is A, then reduced heat loss from the feet (and possibly the legs) would be good. If the problem is B, then you want to minimise overall heatloss.
Let's assume that we are OK with booties, and therefore interested in B.
Some of the key issues with the study if we want to minimise overall heatloss include:
1. The assumption that we want to increase the surface (i.e. skin) temperature everywhere just isn't right. A lower skin temperature means a reduced rate of heat transfer (as the rate of transfer is driven by the temperature difference). Hence, having a lower skin temperature isn't necessarily a bad thing. This is why the someone in the snow shouldn't actually welcome the St. Bernard with the brandy (because alcohol increases blood flow to the skin, which makes you feel warmer in the short term, but increases your heatloss so you die quicker). It is where you have less fat (or other things) between your skin and your blood vessels (particularly those with lots of flow) that the skin temperature will tend to be higher (and therefore you will tend to lose the most heat). Your neck and your armpits will therefore tend to have higher skin temperature than your legs, so keeping those parts insulated would be a good way to retain heat.
2. The assumption that a low skin temperature is necessarily an issue for performance is also BS. Just because the skin is at much less than body temperature (which it is all day every day in most places), doesn't mean the body temperature has actually reduced below 37.15 degrees. A cold skin surface on my legs is not what is coming between my performance and JJF's.
3. As discussed in the comments above, the assumption that the rate of heat loss from the parts of the body that are immersed are greater than those in the air isn't necessarily correct. While convective heat transfer is much faster to water than to air (particularly if the water flow is turbulent), if the air has a low humidity, then the heat taken up by the evaporation of water from liquid to vapour will provide cooling and increase the driving force for heat loss. I could go on about smoothie wetsuits here, but that's another issue.
4. The photo of the guy paddling in the pool in the linked article is revealing. It looks like his back and sides are pretty dry. This means that he will not be getting much evaporative cooling. It would be quite different if he was duck diving every 9-14 seconds, or getting spray from the water surface, or was wearing a fully wetted wetsuit on the top. I'm thinking this difference between the test conditions and the real world would possibly make a big difference.
Another case of half-arsed science I'm afraid. I'll stick with the tried and tested wettie configurations (with good seals) until someone gets serious about this.
2 parts I'd like to comment on.
1: Body temp. Can vary 1-2 degrees on individuals. Adding to this the natural insulation of the individual (ie body mass), will result on some feeling it more than others.
20 years ago, the best revolution in materials was super strech.
The best revolution in the last 10 years has got to be the fluffy inner lining.
The rubber with the fluffy lining is more flexible than rubber a decade ago also but not as stretchy as super stretch.
The problem we have here is we need: Warmth, Flexibility and durability.
The stretchier the material, the less durable and warmth.
The Warmer / durable the material, the less flexible.
As the full suit is the most essential part of our equipment, I find that I'm very disappointed with all regular wetsuit producers. I've owned Billabong, RipCurl, Oneill, Reeflex, Peak, and a local custom made Wing,
Probably all wetsuits, were fine for the first 1-2 years and then slowly died. Most people I know shared this experience.
I now get my wetsuits from Japan. If I plan ahead and order towards the end of summer, I'll have my winter wetsuits arrive before the change of season. I find the extra effort is well worth the results. I enjoy putting on a superior quality wetsuit and I have found that the price I pay is about the same as if I went to the shop and purchased off the rack.
I've been fortunate to learn how to measure up and this is crucial to getting a good fit.
Also in conclusion, as UV, salt and storage all play factors to the life of the suit, I've found that rinsing my wetsuit off asap then when I walk home, I shower with it on the floor letting the soap suds rinse over it.
Hanging it in half for the first hour or 2 prior to hanging it up reduces the weight of the suit on the limbs and dries it quicker than hanging it straight vertical. I use a wetsuit hanger or similar and this also helps keep the rubber in good shape.
Hope this info helps others...
It does, whereabouts in Japan?
I mean which manufacturer?
The one time I investigated a custom Japanese suit it priced out at around $1500 AUD, which is way above my budget.
Try Mellow-wetsuits for budget prices but good suits.
Biarms wetsuits (didn't update their web domain - so hard to find but they were what I rode in for 20 years).
There is View, Bewet, Rash, Maxim, Dove, Oneill Japan. All expensive and all amazing.
https://mellow-wet.jp
That one?
That is one of the most confusing websites I've ever seen- I would have no idea how to get a wetsuit of these crew.
I'm sure it's all been said above, but different climates require different stategies, water high, air cool etc or the reverse.
Notwithstanding the fact that movement of the limbs requires flexible rubber.
The advancement of rubber and thermal linings has changed the thickness requirements, but so too has the 'flexible wetsuit, where when the rubber is stretched it becomes thinner. I'll wager the 3mm of today is the 2mm of yesteryear, once stretched over the body.
If the manufacturers started to differentiate the thickness mixes, for every climate/sales region, they'd all probably go bust.
Years ago I tested wetsuits for a company, as a sponsored surfer, I also used to sell them in retail.
I look for the best fit and the lining for my purpose, when I buy these days.
I think there was a comment above about the core not needing warmth?????? That doesn't make sense to me.
Just my 6 penneth.
If your body core is cold then your extremities are stiff or possibly numb. With wind chill always an issue regardless of location the wetsuit needs to keep the neck, chest, back and belly warm. It’s not rocket science!
The work of "Kinesiology professors".
I think wetsuits are good enough in terms of materials and warmth these days. Likely why all of a sudden we have 20 new brands making decent suits that are all from the same factory sharing many of the same features if you look closely.
Innovation is needed in the construction process and seams etc. The only thing that consistently lets me down are leaks that once appear only seem to get worse no matter what glues i try.
In a perfect world we need some kind of wetsuit foam that can be injection moulded in a single piece somehow.
Rip Curl's H-Bomb has batteries which warm the kidney and back area and work a treat. The testing of the suit was by Mick F in the Arctic, 10 yrs ago. Nuff said.
today's wetsuit challenge...air temp 12, water temp 21.
I'm from Vic so that'd be boardshorts and 'how good is this!
'
Whatever happens to heated wetsuits ? I had a heated vest I wore under my wetsuit that heats the kidneys/back. It was so sweet hitting that button and really seemed to do the trick. Died when good wife put it through the washing machine.
I surf vic through winter and am almost never warm enough if I stop moving - so I upgraded to 5/4. The other day the air was about 13 the water was supposedly 15 but the wind was blowing hard and no sun and if I sat there, yes it got cold. The issue was the wetsuit has soaked up water, the wind then chills that water and so its like your wrapped in a freezing material, doesnt matter how thick it is. So now Im going 5/4/3 Yamamoto, hoping the lack of water retention means the windchill doesnt impact so much. But my mate is in a 3/2. I think it depends on how much body fat and hair you have how cold you feel - more fat more hair = less cold
more fat = less cold. Yep one of the few good reasons to be flabulous.
Anyone ever noticed how warm corduroy shirts are, the grooves in the pattern trap heat.
I wonder if it would be possible for a wetsuit manufacturer to make a steamer with a corduroy rubber pattern around the chest and back area.
Best piece of kit I have invested in for extra warmth is one of those titanium rubber long sleeve vests, very flexible at only 1mm thick. For most of a north coast winter I wear it under a short john.
Do you wear your Corduroy shirts inside out
Extra 3mm
https://www.seventhwave.co.nz/shop/lightwetsuit/Kidney+Belt.html
https://underwater.com.au/article/id/7490-hotsuit-heated-kidney-belt-fir...
Bring back O'Neill's ANIMAL