Watch: One Board, Two Worlds
I've been snowboarding maybe five times in my life, and none of those times were in the last twenty years, but I remain mildly fascinated by the surf/snow crossover, so I sat up and watched when this video crossed my desk.
Acclaimed French shaper Axel Lorentz crafted a board to be ridden by Mathieu Crepel in both the snow and the surf. A down home project, between shaping, surfing, and snowboarding the board stayed within a 100km radius of Axel's Basque shaping bay.
It reminds me of the ongoing work by both Taro Tamai of Gentemstick fame, who's been putting an oriental mix on the surf/snow fusion, and our own Mick Mackie, who, inspired by Dimitrije Milovich, makes surfboards that resemble early snowboards, many incorporating Mick's much-loved sidecut planshape.
But did Mick ever do what Axel has done, and shape one board to both surf and snowboard on?
When I called, Mick was standing at the front of a mate's shaping bay on the Far South Coast of NSW. Originally from Cronulla, Mick then spent 31 years at Ulladulla, but found the town was getting too busy for him. So he's gone south, closer to the border, closer to the snowfields too.
"I've never made the one board to surf and ride in the snow, "says Mick. "Taro has asked about it, and I may do it in the future, but it hasn't happened yet."
"The closest that I know of is when Richard Palmer towed one of the boys, maybe Noel McAlary, into a bommie at Wollongong on a Winterstick [the OG snowboard made by Dimitrije Milovich]."
The problem, says Mick, is that the two boards - surf and snowboard - need different thicknesses and different rockers too.
"If a board is thick enough to float - and a surfboard has to be - then it's too thick to get an edge in the snow," explains Mick. "You end up riding too high."
"Also," he continues, "the rockers don't match: snowboard rockers have to be flat through the guts."
What he has found, and will evolve should that project with Taro ever eventuate, is that the planshape curves can match, giving a good starting place for truly hybrid equipment. And there's better than average odds that planshape will include Mick's much-vaunted sidecut rails.
The above video isn't a compelling statement for functionality, but it's a fun experiment for those tinkering around the overlap between snow and surf.
"Make sure you send me the link to the vid," says Mick as the call is coming to an end. "I'll be pretty keen to watch it."
Comments
Super cool concept and very unique board. Seems to go real well in the snow (even without bindings to assist in the turns). Seem to be very sketchy in the surf and required to be nursed. Don’t know why he didn’t allow a removable fin/fins to be put on when surfing?
Yeah a cool concept, and quite an achievement to make a board that is actually rideable in both surf and snow. However, as someone who has both extensively snowboarded and extensively surfed, the board is clearly terrible at either. The rider has to ride very tentatively in both the surf and the snow just to stay on the thing. This is absolutely no surprise if you know even the slightest thing about either surfboard or snowboard design and construction. A fun idea, but has zero chance of catching on.
Taro and Mick are two unassuming legends.
My board doubles as a cheese grater.
I never tried 'normal' skater-influenced snowboarding but got into snowsurfing about 5 years ago riding one-directional boards with big swallow tails and it's very much akin to surfing. The sidecut rails are a given in snowsurfing so it made sense to try one of Mick's sidecut fishes. Mick's now shaped me a 6'5" and more recently a 7'6" x 3.75" x 22" (a beast) and they are sensational to ride, especially on my backhand. Biggest and longest drawn out backhand bottom turns ever. In my mind sidecut rails bite more into the wave face and actually make more sense than a traditional plan shape. If they didn't look so weird I reckon a lot more surfers would be riding them.
Sidecut on skis and snowboards work because those things flex. Flat rocker - or camber - through the guts - but when weighted the sidecut allows the board to flex, and you follow the radius of the sidecut. The more you lean over, the tighter a radius you can carve.
So Mackie's sidecut flex fishes make sense, whereas non flexing sidecut outlines would have no release. They may "work", but not how a sidecut is designed to work.
Watch that Korua video, or many like them on their website, and you can really get a sense of the dynamics.
In my mind sidecut rails bite more into the wave face and actually make more sense than a traditional plan shape. If they didn't look so weird I reckon a lot more surfers would be riding them.
100%
Ha ha, good luck!!! I tried one, and it was the worst lemon of a board I've ever ridden. Yeah, maybe "long drawn out turns", but that's because it's not capable of anything else because that stupid shape gets in the way when you want to turn it.
A friend from down here got a board with the rails cut as per a snow board as a quad and loved it. He seemed to make it look good was a weird unit to look at.
Was the board or bloke a weird unit to look at or both?
did they get any footage of richard towing that bloke onto the bommy on the snowboard?
Apparently all went down without too much fanfare. I'll ask Richard next time I see him.
KORUA Shapes - YEARNING FOR TURNING Vol. 6 - Carve Oddity from KORUA Shapes on Vimeo.
Here's some pretty sick footage of people doing cutties in the snow. Give it a minute.
That is unbelievable. Really gives you inspiration for better technique in the surf.
Can only assume these guys wouldn’t be able to transfer that flawless style to the waves?
Also what are those boards (not a snow man)?
That flawless style, alright....a couple of those carves are mindblowing. That top turn around 1:45 is in the top 3 turns I've ever seen on water or snow. How they hold a rail and maintain that power and flow is a pleasure to watch. Stunning.
Properly carving turns on a snowboard is a joy. And it is sooooo much easier than surfing. Forget super wide duck stance setups on twin tips, though.
Yep, agreed....I remember just starting to get the hang of proper carves in the 90s before I fractured a couple of vertebrae in a snow-borne collision and haven't had a crack at it since. Fark it.
Just had another watch of that snowboard carving vid. Is actually really mind blowing.
I think I’ve worked out why, with surf footage you’re generally seeing it from in front or side on (down the line). The footage here put you right there, some bloke right up the clacka of the rider to really get that sense of speed, slope and rail.
Very difficult to do (film) with surfing and make it look as good as that.
So rare to see a clip so special and that I’d watch over these days. It’s like the old videos or magazines
I've watched that carving clip 3 times now. So good. Some phenomenal turns in there.
Glad to see you guys liked it as much as I did. Agree with all of the above.
I haven't ridden a snowboard in about 15 years but that film made me remember just how good it is. While I'll always be a surfer at heart, it's often a sport of fleeting, hurried moments. In the snow you have all day. You're flying effortlessly across a vast, beautiful landscape with enough speed to thrill but the reassurance of a powdery landing should you fall. Dressed in a human-shaped sleeping bag, you are comfortable and warm, with a cool breeze on your face. At the bottom you have only to choose between the chairlift and the bar.
The combination of speed, space, effortlessness and comfort makes it the closest thing I know of to those dreams where you're flying and can just zoom anywhere by thinking about it. There's a wonderful kind of disembodied embodiment to it.
This kind of stuff is really inspirational to me. I have a couple of such projects on the go myself. The first is a machine which combines the attributes of an aeroplane and a submarine. I call it The Brick. I also do a fair bit of horse riding and climbing, and seek to combine the two. In order to achieve this, I've crossed a horse with an ordinary house cat. I call it Mongrel Bastard. I'm still ironing out the wrinkles, so to speak. In fact, I always take the iron with me when I'm riding Mongrel Bastard, just in case I need to brain it.
Whatever the relative merits of that shape for either snow or surf, there's no denying it's a work of art. Love to feel those bottom contours and see the rails - seemed like some interesting stuff going on. Wonder if those channels are too pronounced too far forward in the board to allow it to turn properly, though....particularly in water. Be very interested to hear Mick Mackie's thoughts.
Horses for courses. Sorta like using a drill for a hammer…sure the nail might go in, but wtf?
I always loved watching Mick Mackie surfing shark island in the 90's and Ulladulla reefs when he lived there..great bloke and friendly as.His boards look amazing too.
I have an old pic I took, probably close to 30yrs old now, of Mick coming out of a barrel at one of his locals on the south coast.
They used to refer to it as Cronulladulla, which was an apt name for the area at the time.
was riding my mates split board shaped by chris christenson over the snow season. Always wondered how much cross over would have been possible. crazy how well they made that board work
I've been waiting around to watch this and sorry to say, totally underwhelmed. It's an interesting piece of equipment and nice to look at I guess, but it doesn't work in either. I reckon a front foot strap may help it in the snow a bit better, but those turns would have been way more satisfying on a conventional snowboard. As for the surf? Borderline novelty at best. That carving vid above is where it's at.
Gazbomb- gold!
Let's not forget skiing in all this. While snowboarding got lost in the 'short twin tip freestyle' woods for a while, powder skis developed rapidly. Ironically, they gave up on the radical sidecut and became much more like surfboards: wide and rockered, and sometimes even with reverse sidecut.
Praxis Skis (a small indy factory in Tahoe) made the Powderboards, and then the Protest, and skiing powder on those are a dream. Here's a pic of me on my trusty Protests in the Japanese backcountry. Nicest bottom turns I know how to do.
https://www.praxisskis.com/skis/protest/
Great pic!
Nice IB. Throwing a few buckets there.
A mate of mine, really good skier has a pair of K2's similar to yours. Looks like he's clicked in to a pair of snowboards.
Ps- how's Japan for powder! Maybe not the steepest terrain but for white dust, pretty hard to beat.
I miss it so much, Zen. Indo, Italy, and Japan.
Pic is from Tsugaike near Hakuba. We used to go touring every Jan or Feb, and of course hanging about in the onsen.
IB- this is pretty low tech but basically took a pic from my laptop. Late season winter storm not far from my house. Mate and I bolted up to the hills and practically had the whole hill to ourselves. Up to our nipples in powder all day. Fresh track every run. More faceys than a bukkake video. This is me at my most handsome.
Nice pic IB. Have been out the back of Tsguaike before. Fun as.
Yeah you hot!
Just found a 30yo photo; back when I had lots of hair and snowboarded.
Reasonably low.
Sick! Is that on a slalom board or normal one?
From memory it's an asymmetrical Burton board with hard boots.
Great thread . Have done a fair bit of snow skiing ( not for 20+ years ) but never tried snow boarding as the conditions in Oz ( ice ) I thought would make learning too hard .
In powder boarding ( like skiing ) looks an amazing experience . Is it hard to learn ?
Skiing is quite easy . In one week I think a beginner could be quite good and do parallel turns .
How long would a surfer take to be having lots of fun in the right conditions ?
About 5 minutes.
Snowboarding is the easiest thing you'll ever try.
Skiing is easier the first few hours, but it takes ages to get good. Snowboarding is hard for non surfers the first day or say, then piss easy.
IB and zen- thanks for the reply . How do you rate boarding v skiing ?
Seems that if I go to Japan ( not much ice ) I should give boarding a try . No paddling or pop up's to worry about .
I started as as a skier then transitioned into snowboarding in my late 20's so have been snowboarding for about 25 years. I just love the feeling of snowboarding, especially in deep powder or through trees. Having said that, I've actually been thinking of revisiting skiing.
IB is right, while snowboarding is pretty difficult at first, I think the learning curve is pretty flat. Once it sorta clicks, you'll be making your way down the hill in no time. Also, if you surf, you kinda already have that sorta rail to rail hard-wired into you. Skiing on the other hand is pretty easy to pick up, but incredibly difficult to master. When you see good skiers flying down the hill effortlessly, you know they've taken years and years to get there. I respect good skiers.
Novelty stuff, gimmick as but whatever floats ya boat, the snowboard looked like a version of the first ones made back in the day when the sport was born, looked cabbage in the surf, like a skim board crossed with long fibreglass boogie board. there is reason snowboards invented bindings along the way and that riding explains it with obvious abandon. Snowboards reached peak performance a long time ago, but as with surfing the hypoto crypto wierd shape camber side cut brigade have managed to make money off of novelty shit. if snowboarding didnt come along skiing would still be in 1980 on 200cm no side cut planks and spandex pants. And island bay , you should never come out of the closet and admit you were a hard booter, ultimate shame upon yourself. laughing out loud hahahahahhahahah, now lets talk about monoboarding
Hehe, yeah. I thought I might hear a few bit of fatherly advice, inzider, but you gotta stand up and admit who you are and what you were :-)
I did both hard and soft boots for a while. Got fascinated with the speed and G-forces of long carving boards.
Re skis, they did evolve enormously after snowboarding came out, but then it's been a back and forth thing with who's evolved more. Snowboarding got stuck in short twin tip and super wide duck stances, and that sucks. Long 80s/90s swallowtails were the purists snowboards, and that style has been making a comeback for a good few years.
Skis have ditched the hyper sidecuts that snowboards inspired. They suck for all but beginners and specialised hyper carving (look up Line Sakana). My favourite skis (I've hoarded 3 pairs, should they stop making them again) are Dynastar Pro Rider: 192cm @ 105mm, barely any sidecut, and heavy as fuck. They blow through everything and will allow you to go mach looney even on 'NZ variable' (i.e. shit snow). Make you feel like Superman, but definitely not for the fainthearted.
I grew up on skis and didnt snowboard till soft boots came out, yeah ya can keep ya duck stance stuff, i get iit for switch etc but im no fan of the duck , im pretty much zero zero angle, and can switch just fine,
@ my local the fastest hardest carving dudes are surfers who ski, they shred hard and on a hard pack day keeping up is not an option. this year and last was a non event for the local hill, weather systems keep bombing from the north and raining. the kids got up on the tbar a few times but the nutcracker has barely run in two years, suits me fine im stuck in oz and have missed fuck all. Hows the rags treating ya,
Yep, been missing out on Craigieburn for two seasons now. Usually go down there 4 times a season or so.
Rags has been good to us, except for the endless lockdowns. Bloody drug dealers coming in from the city distributing their goods and the virus. Can't do anything, can't plan anything.
Good that you're owning it IB!
:-)
An interesting topic. The mountains are a whole 'nother world. I love being up there. I have never tried snow sports though: main reason is I'm pretty sure I'd become addicted and this would cause fairly major conflict with my surfing. It's a stupid reason I know, but I barely have enough time to do enough surfing to maintain my fitness and skills. Snowboarding would seriously complicate things.
I have a friend down south who spends a lot of time in the Southern Alps ski touring. Basically they fly into one of the ice plateaus, find a base and spend a week touring with Nordic skis. Those plateaus are amazing features. The garden of Eden and Allah is over 50km2 of terrain. Permanent snow and ice. I'd love to go up there with them one time but they have a lifetime of skiing behind them so it'd be like taking a beginner surfer on a trip to the Mentawai Islands: a waste of money and potentially pretty dangerous.