Shaping Machines And The Cut And Paste Of Modern Design
When shaping machines first became prevalent in the surf industry they were target of regular criticism. Mechanisation would glut the market and make shapers redundant, went one argument, while another popular charge took a more metaphysical bent, that shaping machines removed the soul of the design process.
Nev Hyman was a shaping machine pioneer who received his share of arrows. Few took as much flak as Nev did during the formative years of shaping machines. In 1989 after receiving his first run of 100 boards copied from an original, Hyman proactively defended himself in the pages of Tracks. “I shaped the original board and I shaped it without a machine,” Hyman defiantly told then-editor Tim Baker.
Though shaping machines had been around since the 1970s, and a regular part of the shaping process since the mid-90s, board makers were still defending themselves from such charges well into the new century.
The tipping point has been reached, however, and philosophical arguments about the soul-destroying qualities of shaping machines no longer carry weight. Yet all the while, as the surf community wrangled with the ethics of shaping machines, the technology that drives them was inexorably advancing, and the price per unit was dropping. Shaping machines are now sophisticated and widely accessible, and these two factors present a new ethical conundrum.
Recently The Surfers Journal (Volume 24, Issue 2) ran a story about Robert Nichols, a non-surfing engineer employed by Channel Islands to increase the precision of their boards. It's Nichols' responsibility to generate a master file copy of each board in the CI catalogue, and to do so he uses software with the ability to scan 400 data points on every five inches of surfboard. At that resolution no part of the board remains unknown and unquantified. Any digitally-derived facsimile is exact in every discernible way.
In terms of surfboard replication, that's the upper end of the market. Yet there are many different ways to scan a surfboard and get it into a digital format. When I asked my local shaper about the accuracy of scanning he laughed. “Your favourite board will be left with about 200 small texta marks on it but it can be done.” This type of physical measurement could be considered the crudest way to recreate a board, though it's one of the most accurate for older boards. “We can scan straight to file but when we do that it picks up surface flaws such as pressure dings.”
For new boards a simple scan will suffice. “We just scan and save,” says my local shaper. “Then we've got the file in digital format to do whatever with.” And therein lies the conundrum: with that digital file, boards that sell for the best part of $1,000 can be recreated exactly for a much cheaper price.
Much like music files – at least before Spotify and similar platforms came along – surfboard files can be quickly emailed. They can be swapped, traded, or passed off as one's own design. And a burgeoning market is developing around this open source environment.
“We can copy almost any famous model from the main brands.” Says the advertising spiel from The Surfboard Shop, a new Australian/Indonesian business venture catering to surfers travelling to Indonesia. The Surfboard Shop receives files online, cuts and glasses the board in Indonesia, then has it waiting as you pass through Denpassar customs. Finished price, AUD $430.
Similar services are popping up: Boardboxx, Shaping Shack, Disrupt (more about them later), and while Swellnet isn't implying those companies are acting unethically, their scan and shape services - as well as the growing number of surfboard torrent sites - are indicative of the developing open source community where digital surfboard files are conveniently shared online.
When Mark Richards wants to shape a batch of boards he goes through a pattern that is now very familiar to him. He'll make a program file, send that off to California where the head office for KKL is located, which will in turn get sent to one of its satellite offices. The closest one to MR is at Byron Bay, five hours north. Once his blanks are cut they get delivered and MR then sets to work finishing them.
With four World Title trophies on the mantlepiece MR remains Australia's most successful competitive surfer. He's also one of Australia's most successful shapers with over 40 years of experience going into his work. MR is a rare breed, a surfer of preternatural skill and unfailing modesty. A conversation with MR feels like a conversation with King Solomon; wise words imparted in a measured voice without any trace of spite or condescension.
“Shaping machines are the greatest thing that ever happened to shapers,” says MR when I asked of his opinion. “All the excess work gets done. 95% of the effort is taken out. And they allowed shapers to realise the shape they always had in mind and consistently reproduce them.”
Shaping machines were a saviour for long-time shapers such as MR as they removed the elbow work. But despite the savings made in labour, the cost of shaping machines put them beyond reach of most shapers. A high production unit cost around $100,000 at the turn of the century.
“In the old days shaping machines were very expensive,” says MR, “and shapers were reliant on satellite hubs operated by the large program companies. Many, many shapers would be using the same shaping machine and each shapers' intellectual property was protected by the gatekeepers who operate the machines.”
Shaping surfboards is much like any other creative endeavour, ideas freely flow back and forth between adherents and the line between inspiration and plagiarism is often a fuzzy one.
“In the old days you might've been inspired to copy someone's shape” says MR. “So you laid down some cardboard and traced the planshape.” But MR puts a huge caveat on this practice. “It was only so you could reinterpret someone else's design. Put your own slant on it.” MR's justification reminds me of a quote by French film director, Jean-Luc Godard: “It's not where you take things from it's where you take them too.”
At any rate, the shaping machine 'gatekeepers' saw that dubious practices – such as scanning and cutting of competing designs – didn't happen on their machines. They policed the output.
Yet MR notes that things are now changing. “As prices have come down the system has changed. People can buy their own machines.” Reliance on shaping machine hubs is diminishing and it means the boards going onto the market aren't being policed the way they once were. Romantic notions of inspiration are giving way to insidious forms of plagiarism.
“I've heard stories of small labels creating versions of JS, Merricks, and ...Lost, then claiming them as their own.” Scan the pages of eBay and you'll see what he means. Boards from labels you haven't heard of sporting very familiar features: the distinctive cut-off tail of Channel Islands' Dumpster Diver, or the forward-weighted volume of Hayden Shapes Hypto Krypto. Where do they sit on the inspiration-plagiarism spectrum?
“It's very easy for a shaper these days to call themselves a shaper without spending the hours and hours to learn the craft. Commit a lifetime to shaping then have someone come along and scan and save your design? I can't think of a stronger word than stealing, but I feel it deserves to be called something worse.”
In 1993 Derek Hynd wrote an article in Waves magazine encouraging surfers to give Simon Anderson a dollar for every thruster they'd owned. Hynd's idea may have had an element of frivolity – how were people expected to pay?– but there was a serious aspect too. Simon Anderson never sought patent royalties for his 1981 invention and Hynd felt that this was an injustice.
Hynd's dollar-a-board idea resonated with surfers, and not just the ones who bailed up Anderson on the street and emptied their pockets. In the ensuing years different variations of Hynd's statement echoed around the surf community, their endurance a testament of Anderson's popularity but also a symbol of something more profound. That being: shapers should be justly rewarded for their ideas.
The Thruster was surfing's most revolutionary design, yet board design has had myriad small ideas that have got us to our current point. Each incremental step forward was a product of someone's expense and effort. And while surfers have a notional leaning towards a meritocracy – as evidenced by the popularity of Hynd's statement – surfboard shapers have always had trouble profiting from their ideas.
Andy Munro is a Senior Associate at the law firm Slater & Gordon. When asked about the potential for shapers to legally protect their ideas he immediately makes a distinction between copyright and patent. Copyright protects the “artistic work” from being copied by others, while a patent gives “the patentee the exclusive rights, during a fixed period of time, to exploit the invention.”
The criteria of each are similar: 'originality' is the key for copyright, 'novelty' for a patent. “The difficulty for a surfboard designer,” says Munro, “is that most modern surfboards are remarkably similar in terms of their basic elements.” Originality and novelty don't really exist.
As surfers we're familiar with the minutiae of design: a half inch of nose lift, a gently pulled tail, but such subtlety prevents surfboard designs from meeting the requirements of the Copyright Act or the novelty test that decides whether something can be patented.
Even if Simon Anderson had pursued his legal options, Munro doubts he would've been able to protect his invention. After all, Anderson wasn't the first to put three fins on a board, and the magic formula that made the Thruster work – equal size fins, wide tail, pulled nose – wouldn't have been enough to meet the legal threshold.
For seasoned shapers such as Simon Anderson and Mark Richards their experience and their creativity is their currency, yet their designs can be accurately copied without legal redress. Some companies are even encouraging you to do so.
Digital replication isn't always an insidious commercial practice. In fact, it has other non-commercial uses. Damion Fuller is the Australian General Manager of Electric Eyewear, and he's also very well known in the vintage board community. Fuller distinguishes himself with his broad knowledge and judicious curation of vintage boards.
“I've amassed approximately 200 vintage boards primarily for their cultural or design heritage. I'm interested in exploring the validity of the designs that history has passed over.” Says Fuller when we spoke.
Most of the boards Fuller has acquired come from a time before shaping machines were even invented, so of course they were hand shaped. However, he's recently employed the use of scanners and machines to assist with his pastime.
“When I find an interesting design that I'm keen to try, but can't because the board is too beat up or too small for me to ride, I've been getting it scanned, re-sized, and shaped off a machine. My interest is not commercial and I'm not plagiarising instead exploring and celebrating long since forgotten design concepts.”
“Like the biologists in Jurassic Park extracting the DNA of dinosaur blood from mosquitos trapped in amber, I'm trying to bring these old designs back to life so we can look at them with fresh eyes.”
Gary Elphick is the CEO of the aforementioned Disrupt Surfboards, another company that allows users to create a shape then send it to them for manufacture. A new company, Disrupt began operations last year with a plan to live up to their name. Their website says as much: “We believe in using technology to Disrupt.” And so far their plan appears to be working.
“Yes, we've come up against the shaping community,” said Elphick with resignation. “But we've been trying to set them straight. We're not trying to take away the art of shaping.”
Self-shaping is only one aspect of the Disrupt process, receiving digital files for manufacture is the other. Disrupt are a classic example of how modern technology is bypassing the traditional gatekeepers. Disrupt don't even work with a typical shaping machine but rather use a 3D printer. They still receive digital files, though. Would they work with plagiarised digital files?
“There's just no way we can police that,” says Elphick when I posed the question to him. “But whatever we can do to stop that activity we will do.”
Elphick has clearly thought about the issue. “I can foresee a time when something like Google Image Search protects the copyright of digital files,” says Elphick. Till then, however, he has to rely on the goodwill of his customers not to send plagiarised files of existing models.
When anyone can create anything all that's left for consumers to base their purchasing decisions upon is marketing and a competitive price point. At first glance it appears that all creativity has been taken out of the equation. But is that always the case?
Someone who'd disagree is Maurice Cole. At various times during his career MC has been at the very pinnacle of surfboard design, most famously with his forward vee design ridden by Tom Curren and later with his deep concaves. Surprisingly, MC has no problems with the digital imitators, and for a couple of reasons.
“They can scan boards, copy them, cut them, and those board will be 99% finished,” says Maurice of the automatic process. “But I work with the 1%, the fine tuning that no cutter can match yet. And anyway, the imitators are good for creativity, strange as it is to say. They keep me on my toes and always inventing, pushing my designs further.”
The other aspect is something that till now has been overlooked – materials. “Most boards are still straight PU [polyurethane foam blank] with polyester [resin],” says Maurice. “I work mostly with different materials and they give me just as much of an edge.”
"The [surf] industry will move like the music industry and become more focused on digital files," said Gary Elphick in an interview last month. "Those files will be available online and local machines will be able to print them in full."
It's not a partiularly bold prediction by Elphick, it's already beginning to happen, and the disruption that digital files wrought in the music industry - think Napster or P2P file sharing - is having a similar effect in surfing. Advances in technology are allowing the 'art' that surfboard shapers create to be easily copied, recreated, and profited from. Yet unfortunately surfboard shapers, unlike musicians, have no avenue for legal recourse.
Comments
Great article. Good to hear MR /MC's views.
I personally only go to a hand shaper for my boards. Mike Psillakis. We sit down and choose a model, then he says
'mmmm, how much do you weigh at the moment?....... ok, think we'll make it two and a quarter.' He knows I like my double concave really deep on good wave boards too, and that I need more tail rocker than most.
You're still getting the model, but the tweeks are customised. Don't reckon you're getting that even when ordering custom at most machine shape shops.
There's also a level of nostalgia and love of the craft and the personal service that I admit I'm a sucker for.
There's a level of pride you get from knowing that your board isn't popped out.
Good article. I read in interest about MR and his views. Reality is that MR does not shape his boards except for the odd few. Yes he uses pre- shapes but they are finished off by Mark Plater at Maddogs. The picture of MR shaping a board is actually in Mark Platers shaping bay. I guess he is a smart business man to get his boards mass manufactured as well. At the end of the day its all about the money and providing for your family.
Another great article Stu! It's an a big can of worms you've opened, but when considering what the future holds this line is the key..."When anyone can create anything all that's left for consumers to base their purchasing decisions upon is marketing and a competitive price point."
That explains why some board companies have extravagant marketing budgets. On an equal playing field, marketing is the most obvious play.
no different with 'smartphones' ... surprising as it may seem, but the iPhone was NOT the first "smartphone" on the market! And, well, probably not the best, even still today, but, plenty of people buy them because of the ... marketing.
I think I'm hearing a death-bell tolling for the traditional surfer/shaper/manufacturer.
Will the 20 year old apprentice-shaper of today be able to profitably stick around in the surf industry for the next 40 years, just like what MR and SA have done? It's looking pretty long odds to me.
A few years from now, we should be able purchase a 3D printer that prints foam, for less than a $1000 dollars. Not to mention portable hand held 3d scanners. Everyone will be laughing at how archaic the existing shaping machines are. PS you don't need to scan a board to reproduce it.
Guys like MR and Simon have to take control of their legacy and their history. I've never been into "authentic retro" shapes but after reading this I can understand why shapers do it. If they ignore the nostalgia indulgence bit they can keep reminding the market that they were influential shapers and their logo is worth what you pay for.
Swaylocks is the new Napster!
ah, not new ... swaylocks has been the sess pit of stolen idea's for quite some time.
Well, as far as I can see, anyway.
And, plenty of old jaded and cranky old C&*nts too. Must be all the resin fumes.
Board manufacturers keep going back looking at the ideas of the past mostly when it was all hand shaped. Some even go as far as trying to patent it HS, parabolic rails have been around since 70's use carbon instead of glass all the sudden you created it. Don't think so...
What progress other then quarterly profits has been made since shaping machines came into it? PU is still the blank of choice, Majority of surfers are still riding unsuitable equipment and we keep talking about how 3 fins revolutionised surfing. In all that time with all the advancement of modern technology nobody has come up with a better idea then the thruster...
Not many real shapers left just lots of business men now.
Be interesting to see how it all comes out in the wash over the next few years.
When Surftech came out it was supposed to signal the death of traditional surfboards.
Greg Loehr said on Swaylocks over 5years ago that PU/PE was dead and anyone makng them would be mowing lawns for a living.
I just spent the last couple weeks talking to every shaper/designer/manufacturer in Byron Bay, the common theme? All said the main influence of Asian board production had washed through and sales were up. People wanted to come back to the authentic, experienced shapers and get surfboards that weren't mass produced.
Looking around local lineups here I see the vast majority of local surfers riding local boards. While that is happening I can't see digital pop-outs signalling the death of anything. My bet is some of these hype merchants will go bust before the small cottage guy with loyal customers and a low cost base and access to all the marketing he wants for free on the internet.
Yeah I agree freeride my only caveat is that those who stay at the pointy end of technology are going to have the edge. 400 data points is amazing and what could be done in fine tuning with the right software is mind blowing. Upper end of the market....now. This will be the norm in 5 years. I think it is the design and manipulation of the data which is the key. In other words the design. That is where the money is. Look at print, it has been turned on its head and jobs which were there 20 years ago no longer exist. And one thing not mentioned in the above is the glassing. This is still the most pain in the arse job on the whole process and can be the difference between a good and average board. When will they invent glassing machines, and I don't mean third world labour in Bali.
"From cut and thrust to cut and paste" - Reflections by Stu Nettle.
"Filling in the ding and feeling the technological sting: Surfboard artisans and the impact of the surf industry's neo - industrial revolution" - again, by Stu Nettle. Timeless titles, both of them. I'm sure in his heart of hearts, Stu was searching for a better title than what was settled on, and thanks to modern technology, we delivered (albeit late). Which is the point of my post below.
I don't think machine shaping is anything to be scared of and I don't think the gradual dying out of the handcrafting shaper is anything to lament over. Because it will happen - with exceptions.
Some skills are no longer needed. Like blacksmiths, middle management or the NRL, a once important and necessary skill eventually gets replaced by something cheaper and more accurate, necessary or better (respectively).
I guess its like DJ's playing vinyl. There will still be a bunch who do it and are good at it - until they die. Then it will be seen as a kind of precious or obsolete skill; like when you see a middle aged man who still lives with his mum, wearing pantaloons and strutting around strumming a lute at a renaissance fair. That's when you say, 'oh yeah, remember that?' (of course no one does, because they weren't alive). But that's the point, at least it gives weirdos something to do on a Saturday. Same goes for handcrafted surfboard shaping.
Now, when you snap your custom, you can get an exact (although see MC's comments) replica. He's right, but the technology will soon catch up.
Hopefully, in the future, there will be enough nouse from those who recognise the art to create enormous fiberglass statues of shapers of old and commission them to stand tall at their respective local beaches as a tribute , just like Donald Bradman at Adelaide Oval (who was handmade from iron and copper by Robert Hannaford, a respected artisan in his own field of .... art.... if I'm not mistaken).
MF
Essentially, it boils down to the ebb and flow of life. The dancing wheel of chance. Different people, different quivers - sourced from different places and made using different techniques. Some machine. Some not. The result, a whole heap of new white shooters.
Haha
Some people just aren't good at acting or performing contemporary dance routines in the middle of the MCG, that's why we need AFL and soccer players!
I've got a mate that follows the soccer, he is always going on about that it should be called the true football, yet the Aussie national team is called the Socceroos, so soccer it is!
Go the BLUES....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(PS, only having a laugh re:sport code, cheers)
Actually Micky, vinyl is making a huge comeback and dormant record presses are being snapped up and put back into service. True story.
Funny old game surfboards.
I'd say surfboard design isn't holding anyone back and the average standard of recreational surfing is going backwards so those extra fifty gazillion data points or whatever are about as useful as a half sucked cock at a wedding for 99% of surfers. The other 1% will be riding tuned customs same as it ever was.
And yeah, the glasser and even moreso the sander can be way more than 1% of the final product. My sanders name is Kenchy and I know where he drinks.
That helps me sleep at night.
Steve, have you found any "trend" re: the consumer returning to the 'shapers'? I'm curious. Would guess, most are older surfers, possibly going back to their roots? Reliving their past? Looking for boards that work for them, in their stage of life, and can afford them too?
A surfboard "designer" will always be sought after. The sanding block to shaping machine is just like pencils to computers, its a fantastic tool to be used. You still need a Designer / Artist for the thought process, for the innovation. People that can THINK - will always be ahead.
Some great points made in there. The tipping point will come when they get to the stage of 3D printing the finished article. The cost of boards will plummet to the point that they may eventually be considered pretty much disposable. Walk into the surf shop, log in, spend 10 minutes with the designer if you want to modify the previous model, press print and pick it up an hour or two later.
Looking back at some older boards made through the years, the new standards in design let surfers do what they do now, that could not ever have been done before, so why not go forward. Its all about developing the skills to go with the new and old as well, Its great to jump on an old stick for fun but look what the broader surfing community now does everyday on a wave. Pay the true shapers for their designs, and go forward.
APS 3000 AKA Aku shaper software have been available to non-commercial users for some years now, create your own shape from a basic profile and get it cut, glass it yourself or farm it out. No need copy other peoples stuff, make your own! aloha
...
The financials are beyond my understanding, but it must be a great thing for board design. Shapers can spend more time designing boards rather than the time-consuming busywork of hand shaping them. And development and testing can occur with the precision of a certainty of comparison, rather than thinking one thing is causing a result when rather it might be some unknowable vaguery of the hand shaping.
There are no short cuts when it comes to surfboards... Anybody can create their own surfboard. Chances are it will be crude and lack attention to detail but it will have a nose, tail, rails,rocker and foil. The shaper is valuable in the sense that they create better lines and produce a more aesthetically pleasing surfboard but it is their k owl edge that is priceless.
After you have mad a board for someone and they return for another it is their knowledge that will determine how to improve that board. If it a first time customer understanding the design characteristics of their board and creating a board that incorporates the positive aspects and remove/improve the negative aspects. Priceless!
It is the same with machines.... I own an AKUshaper machine and see first hand the different levels of programming. I Have people contact me all the time wanting to get their design cut... When they send it through I nearly die laughing because these creative genius' think they have created a 'Mona Lisa' painting only to discover it's more like a 3 year old finger painting!
The future of surfboards is not in copying yesterday's designs but creating tomorrow's designs!
where ya based cory?
I'd be keen to get ya to look at some of my files. Serious. Don't care if ya laugh, call it as it is ... all a process of learning ...
Hey Wingnut... I am in Ocean Grove, Victoria. I am more than happy to have a look at your files and give you any advice. All the programs have their own quirky areas and depending on how you design your files can have serious consequences when scaling rockers/outlines up and down. Computers programs use complex mathematics to plot their curves and have no regard for the aesthetic curves a shapers looks for. In my opinion the best preshaped boards are being made by the guys that know how to use the design programs. The guys that rely on others to program for them are somewhat detached from their designs.
Think I found ya on Facebook ... sent you a message.
Hey Wingnut... I never received a message? You can email me at [email protected]. Cheers
Hey Cory, only just saw ya message ... will e-mail ya now ;)
Hahahaaaa ... technology is not the enemy. Human nature is! Where did all the 'old skool' "shapers" get their flip templates, fin layouts and rockers from??? Yep, the good ole process of R&D, as in RIP OFF AND DUPLICATE.
Plagiarism, copyright, patents ... who cares!
Look back into history, surfboards progressed BECAUSE of people copying and modifying designs. There was more progression in surfboard design and function 30, 40, 50 years ago ...
It's called "open source" folks, and long before the hipsters or pasty geeks learned how to "surf" the 'net heard the term, our industry was well versed in it's language.
Ahhh the ol shaping machine...and program debate........its rather amusing to see everyone talking about design....so what new designs have the programs created??
I don't mean the refining of what already exists....but true design...actually being able to visualize and conceptualize and new deign and then use your tools to create the design and get it in the water and have the abilty to determine what the positive and the negatives of the new design are and work towards making that new design better than previous......this can take years and is expensive........but its a passion....to think of something and be able to bring it to a reality....
So what is a designer?? Someone who can use a CNC program??
"In my opinion the best preshaped boards are being made by the guys that know how to use the design programs. The guys that rely on others to program for them are somewhat detached from their designs."
I do not know how to use a program at all....but use one of the best programmers on the planet...Chris Kaysen.....we have a great relationship and after a couple of years now ....he can reproduce ..."nearly"....what I tell him...but......as soon as we cut a blank......I then use my gut feeling, visualization of the design to hand tune the design.......what I do on the preshape then becomes the adjustment on the program.
Shaper designers who have learnt their trade by shaping off the blank first, have to learn to visualize the concept...and the be able to convert the mental images into a blank....which teaches craftsmanship......
One of the reasons Australians are struggling as designers is they learnt off pre-shapes.....
Cory, MC, and Wingnut,
The issue isn't so much bad programming or the like but the ability and tendency (not by all but by some) to just copy other designs. While researching the article I spoke to many shapers, not all were quoted or mentioned in the article. I heard a few stories of shapers, some with names you'd recognise, scanning and replicating famous models and incorporating them into their own catalogue.
For mine, that's got nothing to do with progress or development, it's not furthering the art, it's just plagiarism - stealing as MR calls it.
Hypothetically speaking, if you guys came up with a breakthrough design would you be fine with other people making straight copies of it?
yes Stu.....I did it when I stumbled on the EEV design...there are always going to people who copy and .....make money off your designs....but there is a lot more to life than $'s and to actually live in design world where people share.....bring it on...
That's ther problem if they copy...I find it a form of flattery....copying aspects of my design.......love being able to share design knowledge with younger surfer/designer shapers....just spent amazing time in the USA at the Boardroomshow....with Reno...Rusty , Tomo, Ryan, Rob...Gerry.....and so many more...there's no jealousy or weirdness.....but a real fellowship of like minded designers...all still learning from each other.......shit sounds like socialism.......
Ha ha ha...that's not an ironic laugh, by the way, but a genuine dig-your-answer chuckle.
Still, a quick search of the IP Australia database shows that a great many board makers don't subscribe to the same open source, socialist theory. There are lots of attempts to patent surfboard design and more than a few succesful ones to patent materials and construction methods. Clearly those people want to profit from their ideas, and I believe if shapers could patent design ideas then they would.
By the same thinking, I'm sure those guys don't like getting their ideas ripped off.
Or, have been 'convinced' a patent is the way.
If "open source" works so well in the IT world, why not surfboard design?
Ask them where THEY go their flip templates, rockers and fin layouts from?
Come up with 'em by themselves, did they?
Would you consider a 44 year old "design and construction kook" someone you'd riff with?
Sometime I feel I'm reinventing the wheel, but am running outof mates who can handle my constant thought process of design, impact and feeling.
On that note, the "black beauty" tom rode ... did it have 'hard edge' up the whole length of the board like the current "retro" reproductions being sold?
I'm looking at the "hard edge" with concave design for beach break conditions, thinking with the right blend of single into double but with hard edge up the whole board for added "bite" and speed without effort.
Ripped Off...hmmm.....one thing I have learnt in life about going legalistic.....patents and or contracts etc...are only as good as the money you have to protect them....and spending time and energy inn courts what a waste of time....
classic example...a certain board shaper was nearly sued for using carbon rails.....as I did some of these 20 years ago or more in france....I was asked to write a letter explaining that the process hade been done before....just couldn't be bothered as when I looked at the carbon rails ...its was just marketing ploy...no real tech substance........in fact actually was probably detrimental to the hull design.....blah blah blah.....
Profit yeah....but where are the designers>> theres only a handful in Australia......technology that's another subject...
I like D'arcy's 'Shapers vs Scrapers' comment from a few years back. Unfortunately, the surfboard market has rewarded some people who have spent more time on their logo's than their designs! ;p
Ah, yep ... ain't that the truth!
I understand what you are saying Stu but I think it is a part of life. People got to university to get marketing, graphic design or business degrees then simply rip off what is successful for other brands companies. As I said earlier, people who copy are copying yesterday's designs and real surfboard designers/shapers are working on making a better design! Only the talentless surfboard manufacturers that copy boards will sit around worrying about it.
First come the innovators, then come the imitators, then come the idiots..
So true Dong5000!
Yep, agree with cory & brutus. The money spent enforcing any difficult/impossible-to-procure patents would dwarf any perceived profit lost. Also they're nation-specific, Al Merrick (as referenced) getting a US Patent could legally (if immorally) be reproduced here. Let alone china lol.
Or, more perversely , a non-surfer who's never shaped anything could theoretically patent every possible future permutation of a surfboard then fight anyone making anything. (See 'patent troll', in the software industry in particular.)
The best defense is market positioning. As Freeride noted, local, respected craftsmen shapers have endured chinese pop-outs, as surfers are prepared to spend more on a prime lifestyle-reflecting, performance critical object in order to benefit from superior quality/performance, even if it's just the perception of such. So...be seen as innovators, not imitators.
What'ya call 20 000 lawyers under the sea? A good start...
when you mention Al Merrick and C I....theres a classic situation where a Burton bought out C I and the rights to Al's name and designs.......even though Al no longer designs or shapes since he sold.......C I still market and sell the I P of Al.........as Al's name is on every C I Bd......so who designs the new models......??
C I are basically old designs of Als recycled with new names and a tweak here and there...anybody can copy the designs , but the sales marketing and manufacturing power ........is what makes the worlds biggest brand .......what it is....so eeven if you could patent an idea......does not necessarily mean sales success ........
all this technology which speeds up production and accuracy and we still are paying shitloads for boards
Shitloads for boards? I would love to hear what you think a board costs to manufacture mibs-oner and what the margins are? Australia is an expensive place to live and manufacture goods. I am happy to pay good money for my blanks, and glassing to ensure a quality product and provide my suppliers/contractors with a livelihood. As the saying goes... 'Cheap boards aren't good and good boards aren't cheap'!
Mibbs im curious too.....how much do you pay for a custom surfboard ?
I get boards very cheap off a local shaper which I'm more then happy to support his work. I'm talking about mass produced boards that are on every website and in every shop by the dozen which are anywhere from $850/$900 and upward. Fuck that. And what are the chances of the bloke who designed that board actually touching that blank?
Cory your boards aren't produced in the container load either mate and I'm not trying to take away anything from your craft. Any shaper who puts the effort on every board from start to finish deserves every buck made out of it
Now I understand what you mean mins-oner... The pricing of boards is a very contentious one. The boards coming in from Asia have extremely cheap wholesale prices and shops bend over backwards to stock them because of their larger margins. As cheap as these boards are they still cover the cost of the company's buildings and infrastructure, office staff, transport, royalty and distribution. These boards often retail for the same price as a locally designed, shaped and glassed board.
The problem I have is people will try and screw me for $50 but hand over the full amount for a board that cost 60% less to manufacture in a third world country. I am not bitter about Asian made surfboards but it motivates me to educate the customer as to what they are buying and always try to provide great after sales service. Surfers are missing out when they stick to buying mass produced boards to be cool because their surfing could improve if they better understood what they are riding.
Someone recently gave me the analogy that surfboards were like cars...........
The boards that come from the well respected local shapers were like the BMW, Porsche, Jags etc of the surf......... everyone wants one and they definitely handle well and have some extras......
Popouts are more like the Hyandai, Mitsubishi or Toyota........cheaper to purchase, still totally functional and useable, but more affordable and accessable to the average punter.
Talking technology, an analogy akin to computers then ...
Old Skool shapers, pre machines like the "Microsoft" of old ... think back to the 90's.
Then, the old foe, Apple, goes all out and takes over using marketing to baffle... while, new skool google and it's "open source" model, go ahead leaps and bounds. Sounds a bit like the adoption of shaping machine tech by the "big names" and a few "designers" sharing idea's.
Microsoft the old head, banks some coin and then comes out with a new plan to go "open source" and fund some "start ups" ... perhaps, like the future for shaping machines, designs and "sharing" of knowledge for the pure joy (ie. Brutus and the crew in the US of A)
Almost a full circle?
But mac's are for designers and microsoft is for ?????
Aussie Designers?
Straight off the top of my head and I'm sure there are others.
Bob McTavish
George Greenough (yeah I know but he's been here for over forty years)
Chris Brock
Ted Spencer
Col Smith
Phil Myers
Nev Hyman
Tom Hoye
Bert Burger
Wayne Lynch
Geoff McCoy
Dan Tomson
Greg Webber
Mark Richards
Dick Van Straalen
Terry Fitzgerald
Mitchell Rae
Glen Winton
I'm sure there are many others but it's late.
Are you trying to get Brutus offside? ;)
Isn't MC an American now???
Jokes Brutus, jokes.
Ok I bite..what did the shapers you put up there actually design and what would yo say is there latest best design.....??
Seriously, that would take me a half day to go through all that.
Most people looking at that list would have a pretty good idea.
Just to take five: Greg Webber Ultra rocker, deep concave, banana boards
Geoff McCoy: no nose lazor zap. Loaded dome. Nugget.
Dan Tomson: parallel profile micro planing hulls.
Bert Berger: vac bagged parabolic stringer construction
Mitchell Rae: Concaves, edge rail, carbon tailed flex tails, v-flex stringers.
Got no idea why you feel the need to keep bagging aussie surfboard design/designers Brutus. That's one thing we do not have anything to cringe about.
ah FR76 , but you are cringe worthy hehe.......S/bd design ....is designing the hull...not Manufacturing Technology.........
a designer never stops designing.......so are some of your "designers" still designing...what new hull shapes have they come up with.......??
Not Bagging aussie shapers, maybe your very narrow perceptions....seems like there were a lot more designers......who surfed and designed......and now they keep on repeating past glories???
I just gave you the example of Dan Thomson who has arguably come up with the biggest change in surfboard hull design for a long, long time. That all happened in little old Lennox Head. Now taken to the world.
I've seen new hull designs from Greenough which are radically different. Being tested by Dave Rasta as we speak.
Who are the designers we should be looking at then who are breaking new ground?
Also materials and manufacturing are vital parts of it. Again, biggest breakthrough: Bert Burgers parabolic rail vac bagged technique which went on to become Firewire.
Ah DT...so what do you think the design characteristics and hydrodynamic principlest hat improve surfing performance on Dt's bds??
greeenough is American....
Vaccum bagging is an 80's technology....infusion is what is used now...and Firewire are now doing...???
Better be careful mate or they'll be claiming you as american soon.
ah the ol aussie aussie aussie oi oi oi.......bogan aussie or seppo arty farty......??
FR76...you bloody aussies.....from the soft coast!!!
The first balsa railed EPS CoreCell composite tech - Josh Dowling.
Jim Pollard, Marty Littlewood, channels. Camel, God knows what to call them. I've seen some classics though, fins too. Wayne Dale. Kym Thompson. Weasel. Lane Habib mucked around with four fins very much like today's, maybe 35 years ago.
Speaking of fins what about Pat Morgan's keel fins in the early 70's, Greg and Will Webber's curved fins. Great reading
Don't know what point you are trying to make Brutus?
You keep taking pot shots at aussies , comparing us negatively to americans.......that probably says more about your sense of nationalism than anyone reading.
Phil Myers with a few of his latest. Plenty enough creativity there for any kind of direction you want to go in.
Nationalism....uh oh...and become an Aussie Aussie aussie oi oi oi......we are all not like you FR 76.....Nationalistic for the sake of being a Nationalist......actually that statement has very strong right wing connotations.....you could start the Tea tree party!
As for the designs you have shown......single fins ...ahhh don't really cut it in todays contemporary designs......channels ...ahh much the same.......a couple of nice tweaks on some asymetrics......and no disrespect to Phil...as he is a great shaper.....but any younger guys out there you could use an example.....like the future shaper designers?
As for the ," negatively comparing aussies and Seppos".......just because I believe that the USA's surf culture is more developed than ours.....and working there is a pleasure...especially if you are working on new design directions...and manufacturing possibilities............well that's not being negative...that's just being a realist!
Like this:
https://www.facebook.com/272236079478954/photos/pb.272236079478954.-2207...
https://www.facebook.com/272236079478954/photos/pb.272236079478954.-2207...
https://www.facebook.com/272236079478954/photos/pb.272236079478954.-2207...
Some "classic" backyard R&D by a shaper surfer?
What about some ah, "aggressive" concaves ... shameless self promotion warning :)
http://ffwsurfboards.com.au/the-fup/
Nothing like a visit from the fairy to push the boundaries!
USA's surf culture is more developed than ours.... In which way Brutus ?
the surfing culture is older and and and there is a real sense of history........a kind of reverence from days gone by......the respect levels are nearly over the top...whereas here in Australia its still a very young culture.......and "tall Poppy Syndrome" is a classic trait of Australia's national Psyche .......still a bit insecure in our National identity....
thats old thinking.
no longer applicable.
Nothing nationalistic about it but Australias surf history has been better and more xtensiveley documented than any other.
See recent books by Tim Baker and Phil Jarratt.
You've got an axe to grind against Australia Brutus, fair enough, that's your experience but I think it's really colouring your perceptions of whats happening.
I think that the over the top respect is more of an appealing factor myself.
Why would you want to hang out with people that think you're just another fella that incidentally makes surfboards when you could be recognised as - apply American hyperbole now - The guy that shaped a board that the best surfer of his era rode whilst proving he was the best surfer of his era.
Not detracting from the respect with which shapers should be held Brutus, it's just that the iconography only has so much currency in Oz.
a very big difference between .."hang out with," and work with on new materials and designs.....and yeah you are right.....iconography can now be bought thru big teams and their respective marketing machines.....the Australian Hyperbole........rent a surfer and you too can be an icon?
old thinking....no longer applicable???
so you are saying that there is no tall poppy syndrome in Australia......c'mon FR76.........maybe its just the poppys who know...?
So if our surf history has been so well documented by Tim B a real journalist..but c'mon FR76 ..Phil....??
I don't have an axe to grind with Australia....I have observations based on first hand experience.....that show a different history to what you have been exposed to......and watch with interest from the sidelines the demise of what Australian surfing once was...which you seem in denial about.......but living in ya Aussie Aussie bubble , can also be very blinkered!
So my perceptions are opinions based on fact and first hand experiences...maybe you just read too much!
hey have I ever met you before?
As has been explained many times Brutus, Australians have no problem with success.
It's when people perceive themselves as superior through a self perceived level of success that the problems happen.
Aussies respect humility above all. Hit a few runs and remain humble and the public will like you. Within reason.
Hit a few runs and expect the public to fawn at your feet and you're in for a rude awakening.
Australia is a great meritocracy.
Think Pat Cash versus Pat Rafter. One is loved the other considered a wanker.
"Tall poppy....maybe it's only the people who know "..... Puts you so far in wanker territory that you can't even see the borders.
Blowin I am so happy for you.....and that meritocracy..."Meritocracy definition, an elite group of people whose progress is based on ability and talent rather than on class privilege or wealth" is how you see I Australia...
I don't see what you see...I see an elected Govt ....taking from the less well off and giving to the wealth and class privilege.......its about who you know and not what you know......big mulri-nationals don't pay tax we do!
so how would you describe Shane Warne??
Brutus , the government isn't and never has been representative of the Australian people. The true flaw of democracy .
To try and equate the two is predictable but flawed as ever. Pollies having about as much touch with reality as Miley Cirus.
Anyway ...despite your google definition, meritocracy isn't an elite only concept. It applies to every person in every day life . If a brick isn't pulling his weight he'll hear about it soon enough, same for every strata of society .
And you love the US? Nice even balance of rich and poor there, plus you don't have to pay Medicare!
you see the very best and the worst in the USA.......and now you do have to pay Obamacare...even though a lot of the seppos I know hate Obama.....and believe there should be no Medicare at all...
Yes funny you like the place for personal reasons, I went there at Christmas, albeit only to NY and have no desire ever to go back. Seemed like a worn out, overcrowded and underfunded version of here. The public realm was particularly poor compared with Melbourne and they lack a sense of humour (except the blacks). There were interesting pockets......right next to scumsville. Certainly plenty at each end and not much in the middle. Very happy to live here and I am not a flag waver and never will be (although the yanks are).
I think the examples you posted are good ones of more a Hipster type bds....small wave funky toys...just having a lot of fun.....
when I talk about design...I like to try and think 5 years ahead...and what will a high performance be.......and lets do it now....trying to have a strong technical base...and create a faster better s/bd!
The future is here already, it's called a Vader. Been riding the Tomos for about 15 months now, completely revolutionary for the advanced but non pro surfer IMO.
hey wingy....loved your photos of the FUP........try a single concave ( my deepest are at... 1 1/8" deep) ...as the water runs over the double concave into the fins,......and the bump in the bottom from the DC actually reduces grip at higher speeds......feel free to contact me any time thru my website if ya have any tech questions....
Thanks MC ... might just take you up on that offer. ;)
Yep, DC at "higher speeds", could see that ... I'm not into tow in, nor big waves for that matter, just an average punter surfing beach breaks and occasional point waves. I'm mid forty this year, and looking to design elements to keep the stoke of a grommet. :)
Current neck injury is frustrating the heck out of me with surf fitness declining. So, more lately I've been playing around with mals and single fins ... in the process, learning a shitload. Again, the old time and resources conundrum to pursue this "hobby" rears it's head. With a family to provide for it's always a matter of balancing priorities. If resources allowed, I'd love to play around (while neck injury persists) with some more "cruisy" styles.
I'm just thankful I have the "1997" minimal in my quiver. The original from 1997 got me through many injury recoveries and surfing fitness issues over the years, when it snapped, it started the whole process of making boards myself. Have version 2.0 machine cut awaiting my finishing touches... along with glassing "the FUP" - bloody skin rash!
Anyway, thanks MC, I'll make contact. ;)
Interesting write-up there Wingy, be interested to see and hear about the end product.
Hey Craig, she's still not glassed. Bloody skin rash issue(s) ... but, it does have 5 fins plugs installed.
Did you read "the FUP" update? See the video?
Yeah I did, really enjoyed it!
future is here -
Made my own router, cuts any length, up to 4 ' wide, 6" high, runs on free, open source software. I use it to make wooden boards, but could be used for blanks. Cost me about $5000 for an early prototype and the current machine which has had a major upgrade. Next upgrade is a CO2 laser cutter. Have thought about putting on a scanner head, wouldn't be difficult, but why copy, it's no fun.
It's portable, 6' x 3' x 6' high, on wheels ! Not like those massive shaping machines which need a dedicated room.
It's not as fast as a $100,000 machine but it works in my garage from software on my computer.
Could use it to cut out a boat from plans, limited only by your imagination. You draw it, 2D or 3D, then make it. Currently building 2 SUP/windsurfers.
I will always give anyone pointers to make their own machine, I believe in sharing. But it is really easy, lots of info out on the internet, but I've ended up making my machine my way, with lots of hints from like minded hobbyists.
Just looking through my design software everything works in Windows, Linux or Mac except for MeshLab - 3D mesh processing software, Linux only.
I'm 58 and even I can understand computers !
OHV500 - Linux is the real mans operating system !!
Any pic's?
Got a website or blog?
I'd like to know more ... rather than put e-mail address up here for spammers to get, you can contact me via FFW Surfboards website. Details below in my footer / signature.
What really pisses me off is Stu does the research, writes a really thought-provoking piece about a contemporary surfing issue; readers are engaged and then whammo the exchange gets lowered to spiteful personal assaults.
Forgive me if this is a selfish goal but my desire with Swellnet is to participate in an exchange we are all willing and wanting to learn from each other about modern surfing. If there is anything "old skool" to disregard, its that there's such a thing as right and wrong. We are all entitled to an opinion without being insulted for sharing it.
Hey RR, mate, I agree with a lot of your sentiment, but the comments on this article seem to be more "debate" style with "no name calling" or significant derogatory.
The article about the surf performance coaching and the comments ... oh dear, it was almost like Stu was baiting the serial offender. I had to stop reading the comments, all I was doing was skipping over one after the other. Such a shame, because it, like this board design article a great.
Kudo's to Stu and Swellnet for the effort with both.
radiation....ahh ones desires cannot always be met......but be careful the merde stirrers ...who just have days when theres no surf!! hehehe
hey brutus, yep we all got to have a thick skin I know...moving on; I have a few design questions.. it would be great to a tap your knowledge? is that possible..is this the forum to ask these questions?
hey radiation..fire away ..any questions are welcome........
hi brutus - firstly, thanks for being open to questions ..I'm in the process of creating and curating an art exhibition on surfing - goes live in April 2016 in a really good gallery, huge spaces etc. There are no limitations as to what I have to focus on (at this stage) There are two other curators and I have to round up my ideas get passed onto the "action list" and then start making/commissioning the art-works.
So right now, I'm exploring a whole pile of concepts. One of my themes is art & science should never have been separated; at some point just after the Medici era ended society as whole turned left instead of right (in my opinion). The way I see it, this isn't the case for surfing - surfers and surfboard designers have always been bonded by a common interest in understanding hydro-dynamics albeit for different reasons. And when you get into the realms of modern XXL and slab, that's because one doesn't want to die and the other doesn't want to be responsible for another's death. That bond in itself is very interesting to me.
I've been looking for conceptual ways to express the accumulated knowledge of hydro-dynamics idea. I started with Leonard Di Vinci's drawing of the proportions of man (Vitruvian Man). I've been trying to track the evolution of the surfboard design in the modern era from tow-boards and how they have then been extrapolated into modern big-wave paddle boards. I have identified that the tow-boards have gone from roughly 5'6" which I imagine is based on Vitruvian Man calculations, that is you just need a board to ride a wave (not paddle) and anything over your wingspan is in the way ? Then tracking that to 10'6" for a modern XXL board, designed in 2015 and used to try and paddle into the same part of wave, previously the exclusive domain of tow-in surfers. The obvious conclusion being you need and extra 5' to paddle in. I've also found some amazing comparisons of todays paddle-in guns to a '61 board made for the same purpose. That's as far I've got.
With Leonardo's worked (and re-worked) drawings in mind, I remember in a surfing mag many years ago seeing some drawings by Geoff McCoy that described the function of his new semi-gun for big waves, whereby the nose and tail areas were reduced and there seemed to be a lot of infinity signs describing the flow of water to support his concept.
Somehow combining the above thoughts, using the real workings of the surfboard design evolution to create a 3D art-work is where I have got to. Then...blank...
I hope this doesn't sound like art wank...because that's not my game..I recognise I'm in need of more direction from a true designer..over to you..all advice welcome.
Not to speak for Brutus but you lost me.
You spoke of hydrodyamics but your premise is that science and art were never separated in surfboard design. So, where does the art come into it?
I doubt there is a surfboard designer alive with a true understanding of the scientific principles of hydrodyamics, which are very well understood. We have a functioning understanding of what works but the why is still mostly unknown. Hence so many vastly different surfboard designs, all of which work to varying degrees.
Trial and error, a kind of stab in the dark empirical approach with the odd mistake leading to unexpected breakthroughs. There's very limited scientific understanding of such basic marine hydrodynamic principles such as lift and drag forces on surfboard hulls and fins. Basic princinples like Bernoullis principle are harder to apply because of the difference between the density of water on the bottom of the hull and air through which the surfer and deck are moving in .
Machines and CAD's have at least standardised the trial and error. I doubt we are any closer to true hydrodynamic understanding of surfboards as multi-speed planing hulls. The trial and error continues.
ah lost and even more so when it comes to designing and shaping.....the ol stab in the dark R&D has worked pretty good to now......and yeah there have been a few Happy Mistakes in s/bd design......but having spoken to, and will work with one of the Americas cup Hydronamic genius's who built the Oracle and one of the 80' Cats that raced in San Francisco...we are a lot further developed than people think...
We are very close to major breakthrus.....but thru Tow bds at Higher speeds than paddle bds....and as so many people have dismissed towing as "passé"......some times ya can't see the forest for the trees...
Do you think Greenough has an understanding of Hydronamics...??
Hi RR's...been surfing a lot...so been a bit inactive.......but love the project you are doing....as its very inline with what I currently do....designing small tow bds to ride huge unpaddlable waves ...which means and whole new realm of Hydrodynamics, compared to paddle in, because you have to incorporate paddle power into the paddle gun....and a tow bd is a pure board for riding the waves....as a jet Ski is the propulsion unit........
I have been in contact with a guy called Scott Graham who I met many years ago in SoCal...he's one of the Americas Cup Hydrodynamic designers.....did the Oracle which smashed Allinghi......and just did the New Zealand cat which was on Hydrofoils.......and narrowly lost to the USA in San Francisco....
I met him years ago at Sacred Craft s/bd show which is now the Boardroomshow.......where he talked thru my Carbon Tow bds and how I use them for my deep concave Metro's and Protows....my F1, in testing bds at much higher speeds which works out performance at much higher speeds than a paddle bds......and has opened a whole new realm in performance and design.....
After speaking to Scott at the Boardroomshow a few weeks ago......we have a project together in working out how to get big guns to accelerate when you lean them onto an edge ..and not slow down...and also how to use carbon properly on bds , as he couldn't believe some of the carbon Rail bds.. and the misusage of bds...
I also have a collection of Tow bds from a decade ago.......and every bd made since so you can see the evolution of the bds to the current project of making a tow bd for Nazare in Portugul......First R&D board is best so far....
lets continue this thru my website email address [email protected], and I can give you a call........surf's 6+ and perfect...I'm outa here!
Great piece and interesting comments. Not to take anything away from the great man, but MR is not the most successful Australian competitive surfer.
Who is then?
I'd say he's referring to Layne Beachely.
I've had a few of both, shaper and machine cut. Yes the machine cut is cheaper but that's where the positives end. Having a board shaped by a shaper makes you feel closer to the board, as you've sat down and discussed your style with the shaper whilst the blank is still a virgin. then after you've surfed it, you can discuss the prod and cons for YOU. This the n leads to the next board where the journey for your perfect shape gets closer(chasing he gold at he end of the rainbow). That's part of the beauty of surfing!
I've had so many hand shaped boards over the last 30+ years yet some of my best ones have been off the rack models. My current board is a Tomo Vader, yes a popout from Thailand, and its the lightest strongest and most insanely responsive board I've owned by a long way.
I didn't know a machine cut is cheaper.........since when
Im all for machine cut blanks.....so whom do I go to for a cheaper surfboard ?
I just got offered a brand new stick for approx $350 Aussie on the streets of Kuta.
That was before negotiations and the fella was already mouthing about tail pads and fins thrown in.
Didn't have a known label but it looked like a perfectly serviceable surfboard.
Guaranteed you could get barrelled on it.
City Beach shops in Aust. sell new "Jacks" boards for $299
http://www.citybeach.com.au/shop/en/citybeach/hardware-surfing-surfboards
the advent of the very cheap s/bd ......Asian made and imported by businessmen who are servicing a part of the market.........
the customer is the one deciding what to buy and work towards a board that might improve or enhance their surfing experience.
So some people are really happy with an average s/bd.....and are looking more at the experience of just surfing...and then there are those who want the "magic" s/bd...and the best bd of their life.....the holy grail for some of us!
Some surfers really enjoy custom bds because they are part of the process of getting better bds...and there is a feeling of personal contribution in getting the magic bd....
I think the custom market is growing as people want more personalized bds.....but there are those who just want good stock bds and that's enough....2 diffrent markets
It's all a compromise to me Brutus.
I could spend thousands on tailoring a board off a shaper, the evolution of my perfect board through years of refinement ....but then I MIGHT have the perfect board for a certain wave in a certain set of conditions.
How many pros do you hear of that receive dozens of boards a year off a name shaper chasing that magic board only to then seek out another shaper as the process isn't making any progress ?
Unfortunately I dont have the time , money or centralised location to establish a decent relationship with a shaper.
I might spend $5000 indulging an East coast shaper in the pursuit of the perfect board to find it has not much discernible performance advantages in WA , Indo , Fiji or wherever.
That $5000 would probably equate to six refined versions of the same board.
Not even looking at the rest of my quiver yet ie gun, semi gun, fish.
For $5000 I can grab a dozen or maybe more good second hand sticks or new pop outs.
That's a lot of different boards and even if your boards aren't PERFECT , then I reckon you're better off making do and spending the difference of your $5000 going somewhere where the waves are good as opposed to (maybe ) getting a better board and having less funds to chase the real defining factor in you're enjoyment levels - good waves.
And there is no guarantee the performance of the boards will be any less just because the shaper is not recognised, has no marketing or because the boards aren't new.
Not at my level anyway.
The best barrel I caught last year - and I caught a few - was on a 7'2" that I bought from a bloke that had it lying in full sunlight against the side of his house for years.
It was christened the Tip Rat cause it looked so putrid. I'd be embarrassed to carry the thing around at any metro beach. The deck was painted with house paint.
Still got me through my wave of the year.
Look at Camels boards.
Like you said mate ...different methods for different people. I don't think either method is superior.
Of course I'd love that magic board though....
interesting comments , but in the end I still sit on the beach after a surf whether lefties last weekend or Tomies a few weeks back and still guys are struggling with their equipment.
Who ever told someone that a 5'8'' blob was appropriate at 10' Gnaraloo or someother fad creation leading to the middle cohort of surfers are going backwards in performance.
Despite all the advances in ''design'' and technology
Boards ?
A horrible cheap lightweight piece of trash but ingenious for making a few bucks . Perfect for indo with all the kids to surf on a half bd
Caml - you don't like things that are cheap ?
Shit... what are you offering him blowjabber? At least charge a reasonable amount blowjabber.
blowin..imagine working with a good designer/shaper and every bd you bought was better than the last...how's ya $5K?
The aim of a custom bds is to customize a design that is specific to your surfing..and work towards getting a formula for your surfing that will translate into new designs....
I completely understand why most people choose stock bds and just want to surf a good average bd ( Which machines have provided)...not think too much and just go surfing......
but some of us want to work towards even better bds....small part of the market ...but that's where the designing gets done!
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most shapers these days get their blanks machine cut to as close as they can for the custom design they are after then tweak them by hand to the clients specs?
This cuts down on the time required pre shaping and gets the boards rocker, thickness width etc more accurate and consistent than the old planner and surf-form way.
Even the old hands do it this way nowadays unless they have no data on file that they can feed into the cutting machine that would come remotely close to the board they are trying to shape.
The surf industry is full of bad deals and skinny margins for shapers. If it's a good design and no one gets hurt, why not use a machine shape. I reckon if some of the hand shapers used a machine the local guys would still buy the boards as its their experience and creativity we are investing in, not the toil. I would.
hey FR76.....
freeride76 commented Thursday, 28 May 2015 at 7:52pm
Not to speak for Brutus but you lost me.
You spoke of hydrodyamics but your premise is that science and art were never separated in surfboard design. So, where does the art come into it?
I doubt there is a surfboard designer alive with a true understanding of the scientific principles of hydrodyamics, which are very well understood. We have a functioning understanding of what works but the why is still mostly unknown. Hence so many vastly different surfboard designs, all of which work to varying degrees.
Trial and error, a kind of stab in the dark empirical approach with the odd mistake leading to unexpected breakthroughs. There's very limited scientific understanding of such basic marine hydrodynamic principles such as lift and drag forces on surfboard hulls and fins. Basic princinples like Bernoullis principle are harder to apply because of the difference between the density of water on the bottom of the hull and air through which the surfer and deck are moving in .
Machines and CAD's have at least standardised the trial and error. I doubt we are any closer to true hydrodynamic understanding of surfboards as multi-speed planing hulls. The trial and error continues.
Hi RR's...been surfing a lot...so been a bit inactive.......but love the project you are doing....as its very inline with what I currently do....designing small tow bds to ride huge unpaddlable waves ...which means and whole new realm of Hydrodynamics, compared to paddle in, because you have to incorporate paddle power into the paddle gun....and a tow bd is a pure board for riding the waves....as a jet Ski is the propulsion unit........
I have been in contact with a guy called Scott Graham who I met many years ago in SoCal...he's one of the Americas Cup Hydrodynamic designers.....did the Oracle which smashed Allinghi......and just did the New Zealand cat which was on Hydrofoils.......and narrowly lost to the USA in San Francisco....
I met him years ago at Sacred Craft s/bd show which is now the Boardroomshow.......where he talked thru my Carbon Tow bds and how I use them for my deep concave Metro's and Protows....my F1, in testing bds at much higher speeds which works out performance at much higher speeds than a paddle bds......and has opened a whole new realm in performance and design.....
After speaking to Scott at the Boardroomshow a few weeks ago......we have a project together in working out how to get big guns to accelerate when you lean them onto an edge ..and not slow down...and also how to use carbon properly on bds , as he couldn't believe some of the carbon Rail bds.. and the misusage of bds...
I also have a collection of Tow bds from a decade ago.......and every bd made since so you can see the evolution of the bds to the current project of making a tow bd for Nazare in Portugul......First R&D board is best so far....
lets continue this thru my website email address [email protected], and I can give you a call........surf's 6+ and perfect...I'm outa here!
hey brutus > I followed up via email last week > did u get it? RR
Stu, you may wish to pick up this for a story, it's a biggie:
http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/feature/surfing_into_a_greener_future
http://www.algaeindustrymagazine.com/ucsds-algae-surfboard/
http://www.energy.gov/eere/bioenergy/articles/world-s-first-algae-surfbo...
iego.com/education/2015/04/21/uc-san-diego-scientists-produce-surfboard-from-algae/
Brutus is right - the Americans are light years ahead and importantly they back new ideas rather than tear down those who have them.
VJ , be careful ,FR76 will put you on the love Seppos program..which automatically cancels your OZ passport...
check out sustainablesurf.org.......do an amazing job working and developing a new greener s/bd...
I met Steve who was the instigator of getting the Algae foam up and running ..it'll cost $10 more ......but he actually mentioned being able to emgineer the foam molecules to deal with Flex and Tortion....and when I asked him who is getting the license and under what type contract.....he said the formula will be for everybody...its not about the $'s but leaving a heritage of being part of the green revolution.....
when you use and algae blank ,use the new 5oz plant based carbon hybrid , with the new bio-sap resins that are recyclable after drying.....we are nearly there......where?
Thanks Brutus, I will check that out. $10 more, I'll pay it; from what Steve said to you it appears they might open source it, joy of joys. You can pay about $40 to read a preliminary paper on how they convert the crude into the polyols, but in the summary they write that results were not perfect at the time of the paper.
Can you get the plant 5oz hybrid cloth in Oz? Can you get the bio-sap resins?
If I see you on my son's paper round I'd be keen to talk more. Have built my own shaping machine but it's all analog still. It might spin you out a little! Cheers for all the wisdom over many posts here :)
there 's a lot going on in the USa with Co's really commercializing new green products..and yeah the bio-resins are available in Australia ..with the cloth being available soon.....
my real interest now is designing new hull designs.........we might have to send down FR76...and bring him up to speed...those Byron Bay Dipsters will get ya everytime hee
he......no problems catching up
Wingnut , this may interest you : Glowforge 3D laser printer.
udo ... I only just saw ya comment, and checked 'em out. WOW!
Mitchell Rae - Outer island surfboards, Very busy of late measuring up his favorite hand shaped surfboards and modelled into computer files.
'Disrupt' etc are for Kahooooooks!... They know it, we know it, fucken Marselles knew it. And Anton shoulda fucken better known better.
Twiggy Baker instagram - Pic of a machine cut gun blank but the stringer left proud
whats the story there ?
Akushape now have a new router option ..interesting
Soon to cut your channel bottoms ?
Interesting article thank you. Firstly, it's happening in every industry. I work in the fitness Industry where you have 'Fully Qualified Personal trainers'. In reality that's the initial qualification to get you started! It's the expertise and experience that can make or break a body, even with the same exercise!
So, as Maurice Cole rightly says, it's his expertise that can make or break that shape. He certainly has the expertise and experience to comment.
Not mentioned is the fact that not all machines are created equal! A file from a KKL will not come out the same if used on another machine.
I also believe that scaling up a board, without the expertise to modify the file results, quite often in more nose rocker and then pushes water.
So, an accurate scan, great for that magic board, then get that expert shaper to add his years of experience and revamp the magic.
I believe that in time, if the public become educated, then they'll go back to the experts. The experts however have to 'let go' and embrace the new technology. The new technology, coupled with the expertise is the way to go. That will send the Charlatans back to digging ditches where they belong! :) If that doesn't happen, as in many industries the 'True Craftsmen' will disappear. Challenge your shaper to hand shape you one!! If he goes red in the face and sweats immediately, go somewhere else! Support the innovators and experts.