On killing and Indonesia
Tuesday night and Wednesday morning.
10pm: Twenty four hours before the appointed time, my wife woke up screaming in the night. It didn’t hit me until many hours later, when I saw on the evening news the hideous pack of newshounds blocking the path of the families on their way to the final farewells, people treated like stage props as they suffer the worst moments of a decade-long nightmare.
I’m not going to go over the old arguments – the familiar strains of if you can’t face the time, don’t do the crime. For Chan and Sukumaran the time is eternity, and it’s too late to argue.
I hold no brief for a couple of guys who took a shot at a payday on the misery of others. Never have, but by any humane reckoning, they did not deserve to die. They did not deserve to be subjected to this final obscene circus, and the ringmaster, the President of the Republic of Indonesia, must now be judged by the world as a man who valued saving face above the basic principles of common justice.
So tonight as I write, as the hours tick down and people gather in public places to light candles that can’t be seen in Jakarta, I have tears in my eyes and a horrible sickness at heart that it has finally, inevitably, come to this. My tears are for the men who must die, and for their families, and for all those who have supported them in their rehabilitation and in their preparation for this sad outcome.
But I also feel overwhelmed with sadness for Indonesia, where so many hopes have rested on the emergence of Jokowi as a “people’s president”, and which must now suffer the wrath of the civilised world and an ever-greater gulf of cultural comprehension. And particularly, I am saddened for little Bali, where part of my heart resides permanently, and where, quite coincidentally, the first act of this tragedy played out a decade ago, and where the collateral damage will now be felt hardest.
How many people have you heard say: well, if they kill them I’ll never go back there. I don’t understand the logic of that sentiment and I think the retribution is misdirected, but I respect the right of others to take that view. Some will even stick by it.
But we will go back, and soon. As I have written elsewhere, we are joined at the hip, with no hope of change. Our Balinese friends are not of a kind to openly challenge government at this level. They will fight a neighbour over a rice paddy and even protest a governor’s incompetence or corruption, but since independence lumped the archipelago together under a president 70 years ago, whoever has held that office has had the authority (almost), if not the love, of their own Dewa Agung, the Great Deity.
So the subject will be respectfully avoided, and if we bules discuss it amongst ourselves, heads will be bowed around us, and sorrow will build a wall that only time and a more compassionate Indonesian leadership can take down.
4.15am: I steal into my office and open the news sites. Geoffrey Robertson is calling it “operatic barbarism”. It is over, and now it begins. //PHIL JARRATT
Comments
Nice piece Phil.
Kind of mixed emotions for me. I feel for the families, less so for the condemned but I didn't believe they deserved to die.
They've paid their dues now and some. I hope they can rest in peace.
Wonder how shcapelle corby feels now ? Also the other "bali 7 " ? Terrible injustice getting shot this morn . Despicable !
no one has won in this sad tale, but i think the calls of jokowi scoring political points, saving face and being weak are misguided. does anyone stop to think for one minute that he might actually believe in the death penalty just as much as his self righteous detractors oppose it? pretty sure most indos feel the same.
why doesnt everyone make such a fuss about US death penalty, or singapore, or china? OZ government too gutless to bully china, and bullying is what it is
I disagree everyone has won the Indo people and government has won, jutice has won, even Australians have won getting rid of two repeat heroin drug smugglers.
The only people that have lost are the drug smugglers and their families.
To save face a mistake has to be made to save face over, some westerners may think they are making a mistake in executing these people but thats not how the Indo government or 80% of Indonesian voters who support capital punishment see it, also remembering what he is doing is exactly what one of his election promises was to do.
Do agree 100% with your last bit though.
I wonder if our government is going to pull our ambassador out of the u.s. aswell. For their similar atrocities as so many put it. What's the difference? Just because they were Australian? Are we really so proud of these two? Double standards in play. political action to show the public something. I dearly hope that there is no long term political fallout from this and that government and people apply pressure sensibly without undue judgement over this poorer nation.
My facebook feed is filled with the old they did the crime bla bla even people saying good ridence ! Not all but there are lots who have this view , I just can not get my head around how barbaric it was executions have been happening for years but to get a first hand close look at how it affects families and friends and how cruel it is I just don't understand how any intelligent compassionate human can not be outraged or very least upset ? Most murders are spur of the moment but this is as pre meditated as murder gets it has a certain perverted sickness to it , I am sad today but I will be back to support my balinese friends
The AFP sold them out to the Indo's,
and a Phillipino woman had her death sentence commuted for smuggling 2.5kgs into Indo...because the Phillipines president stepped in asked for the sentence to be commuted.
what elase would you expect from a 3rd worl country...corruption has been the staus quo of the whole 10 year process....
the "payday on the misery of others," ....the so called misery of drug addiction is not the fault of the mules but the consumer....all drug dealers are doing is service a market that already exists....dealers are not running around mugging people and or dropping drugs in there drinks..trying to get people addicted....
We have a huge problem drug in Australia....legal and illegal.......killing 2 mules....will???????
Woah there, cowboy.
The Filipino women's - Mary Jane Veloso - team has successfully argued that coming from the poverty that she did she was lured into a promise of a domestic service job and was subsequently and unwittingly provided with funds to travel, luggage, etc. as a "drug mule". The person who recruited her with the promise of domestic work employment has come forward in the Philippines. Further, no nationalist sentiment emerged against Mary because the Government of the Philippines approached the issue more carefully than the Australian Government. Some of the Indonesian public that expressed support for the killing of Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan supported leniency for Mary because of her circumstances.
hey clif..yeah she told a great story and el president intervened saying that a lady had handed herself in to Philipino uthorities claiming she was responsible......I wonder if they will extradite het to Indo to be shot??
I have a real problem with the AFP not letting the bali 9 come back to Australia so they could catch Mr Big....who is the real brais and head of an international crime syndicate...Mr Big has retired in Sydney with his millions and 2 Australians have been executed as the ring leaders ,as per the AFP brief.....who really thinks that any of the bali 9 were not mules ?
Interesting article... I saw no such articles when the Bali bombers were facing the firing squad..... IMO, the death penalty does nothing.... It made martyrs out of the bali bombers.... They should be rotting in jail.......
Port Arthur mass murderer Martin Bryant is still rotting in jail as we speak... I am comfortable with that...... I am also comfortable with the fact that those found innocent years later thanks to dna, or due to perversion of justice are still alive, and therefore able to sue, and clear their names..... latest stats show that 1 in 24 on death row in the USA are actually innocent... Not bad odds you may say, unless you or your child is that 1 in 24......
...this is hard for many of us to stomach, as in our society , with our many rights (just ask our kids ) we have ONE absolute right, the right to live and no one has the right to take this from us. However Indonesia is a country that has different values. We also have blood on our hands as the Australian federal police tipped off the Indos that these guys were coming their way with the drugs ! the Aussies handed over these guys to the Indos on a golden plate....as Will Shakespeare once said 'something is rotten in the state of Denmark'
Very well written piece Mr Jarrat! The most disappointing thing has been the major media outlets treatment of the story from day one. It's agenda was always to make maximum mileage of the story from its beginning to its end. Everything I read yesterday almost revelled in the way the execution was to be carried out and the family's undoubted and warranted despair ......4000 people dead in Nepal but the main story was description after description of how these poor guys were going to die. Maybe if the media hadn't been beating up the story for the last ten years they would have had a chance to expoit the corrupt legal system by bribes early in the piece. It is Indonesia and apparently those things are common place. I know it sounds terrible but maybe their only chance was if the media didn't highlight their plight everyday on the Australian news and create the situation where anything but the executions would make the Indonesian government feel like they would look weak if they didn't go through with their maxmum stated penalty. My thoughts and sympathy go out their family and friends.
Clive palmer just spoke on the tv ABC news break ....[replay]
First time I 100% agree with Clive.
i agree with the article completely, they were fuckups but they didnt deserve to die, just one thing has been grating at me for quite a while now, and please fill me in if you know the answer, who said they were rehabilitated? (not that it should have had any bearing whether drug smugglers should have been executed) the only 'rock solid' sources ive heard of (admittedly i havent searched too much) some 'artist' from sydney who went and did some paintings with them and various fuckwits on morning television like koschies angels et al. karl stefanovic (haha). ive seen the way public opinion can be manipulated time and time again. did schappelle use up all of indonesias tolerance for media fueled bullying (whether or not its right). has the medias hysteria actually fueled widodos fire? leroys comment about the nepal story vs this one really hit a note with me. it happened time and time again with schapelle.
so if anyone knows the answer to whether or not someone qualified judged them to be rehabilitated, i would be interested to know.
cheers.
Geoffry..in Australia there is NO rehabilitating prisoners....
its amazing Chan became a Christian minister after 6 years of theological study and mentored and helped many fellow prisoners.....and became a mentor!
Sukumaran completed an Arts degree and became a good artist and also a Christian.
Both prisoners refused a blindfold and sang as they were being killed...amazing grace being one of the songs......the Pastor who was present was blown away ...how happy the 2 were to meet their God....now that's Faith and ya can't fake that!!
So rehabilitated yeah.....just drug mules yeah...and Mr Big has retired with his wealth and life intact thanx to the AFP.......corruption all round except for end to their lives where they died with dignity!
There's a lot of angles to this sorrowful story.... to me what stands out is that as Indonesia is our immediate neighbour, and the Australian government thought that the relationship was strong enough for the two neighbours to mutually work out a satisfactory solution without it getting polarised. Unfortunately that's exactly where it did go with Widodo, and Australia got the big Go Get F*cked in the process, and the firing squad got their marks.
But I can't help but sense a strong internal Indonesian politics thumb-print all over this case and their refusal to pull back from the brink; that somehow this issue equated to internal perceptions of national pride and 'we're tough and nobody's going to influence us or tell us what to do'....
One thing I do know about disputes between neighbours: if a dispute becomes protracted, embittering and with an unpalatable outcome for one neighbour, then this does lasting damage to the relationship that probably cannot be repaired, and maybe remains unwillingly repaired for the aggrieved neighbour at a national level?
It's a shock reading many of the comments in online forums and seeing such a lack of empathy from so many. I'd like to know if people making these comments have similar views towards those being treated for alcohol, tobacco, and obesity related illness, which kill far more people every year than any illegal drug. Perhaps we could refuse medical treatment to people with lung cancer, heart disease, etc, as people who consume alcohol, tobacco, and cake, 'knew the risks'.... and while we're at it, those who have skin cancer from leisure time in the sun....... 'do the time, pay the price'.
My condolences go out to the families and friends of all eight who were murdered in Indonesian overnight.
Law reforms are needed in any case if we are to tackle the illegal use and supply of drugs and narcotics. If for example such narcotics were legal and or de criminalised, supply could have been controlled through a structured register. This would surely put less demand for supply through illegal channels thus people like the Bali nine would not have had as big a profit margin in their part of potentially smuggling and suppling the drugs to the black market, which inturn the short term risks would've seemed hardly worth it.
This is a situation that our society has created through our attitudes and our inability to think in the long term, until of course it happens to one of our own. It has little to do with the Indonesian public, because lets face it, their youth are blindly following our youth into a materialistic, hedonistic vortex that we created. Why did Corby brazenly take 4 kilos of premium heads to Bali? Expat westerners maybe created a market for it? Or were the expats just as happy to smoke the leaf seedy impotent weed available there? Only people with some experience can tell you the answer to that. Before any meaningful research had been done into the Corby situation the media had already told us what to think. Now there's a glad wrap machine in every airport you go to in Australia and Bali at least. How much tax payer money was spent on her case? Could that money have been spent elsewhere more worthwhile? Two totally different scenarios, but both with the same outcome. Westerners ramming our way of life down their throats. This is just my opinion.
If your a guest in someone else's country act accordingly.
Is it time to Geoffrey Boycott Indo? Clivus finds it hard to believe any surfers will say yes but is interested to hear your views nonetheless.
I had no plans of going back in the near future previously to this but I can't see what could be gained from a boycott. I can think of a lot of collateral damage to the Balinese though. What about you mate?
Personally, I don't think Clivus would go as far as to boycott on the basis of this matter alone.
Moral stand-point on the ethics of the death penalty aside, it isn't our place to decide the laws of Indonesia. If you're in Indonesia, you play by their rules.
Indo is fun and we've all had great waves over there but Clivus prefers surfing the southern latitudes anyway. Whilst you don't get the same degree of satisfaction out of buying a post surf soda with Australia's waterproof currency relative to a surfed out soggy Indo ducat taken from your boardshorts, there are undoubtedly less Beng-beng wrappers and human excrement in the water at my local, and less hassling with wave-starved Europeans that exercise total disregard for surf etiquette. Clivus' arm can always be twisted on a good forecast though.
A 26 yr old Russian female caught importing 2kgs of crystal meth into Bali sentenced 2 days ago to 17 years.
yeh saw that,,,,2kgs !!!,,,,,,I wonder how much money was exchanged
Cruel, inhumane and, ultimately, utterly senseless.
As is the underlying cause for these deaths and too many others - the so-called War on Drugs. So many victims and so many losers. Even the so-called winners don't win in the end, excepting, maybe, the arms corporations.
Genuine change will only come when the clamour for it is too deafening to ignore.
First, we all need to be properly informed. Reading this book will help - Chasing The Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs.
Then start clamouring.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-29/bali-nine-indonesia-defends-execut...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasing_the_Scream
"Westerners ramming our way of life down their throats."
Couldn't agree more.
I just hope the Indonesian government now goes all out to to stop assisting the arrival of boats from their region. Abbott, Bishop, Hockey, etc. can all then jump up an down and only have themselves to blame for the increasing influx of boat arrivals onto Australian soil. Bring it on.
"If your a guest in someone else's country act accordingly."
Yep. They knew the rules. Simple.
If we as a county, and all of you so opposed to the death penalty, wanted to do something, there are ways and means. It does not need one case, one situation and an whole heap of media storm... But, let's be honest, without the media storm the interest in this execution would have gone unnoticed like many many others have to date ... why haven't Abbott, Bishopp, Hockey, etc, (and well, lets be honest, all of you saying it's barbaric, etc) not done something before now? Death penalty has been in existence in Bali for how long?
As Clivius put it, how many of you upset by this "barbaric act" will now be boycotting Indo for your cheap family holiday or surf trip? Well, until they change their laws about the death penalty ...
Very good article thanks Phil.
It is indeed a very sad day not because the sentences of two convicted criminals were carried out in the most extreme of circumstances, but because many people Australian and Indonesian alike including the Indonesian Government are not capable of seeing or of understanding the unique values in this particular case.
These guys never said they were innocent they have accepted their guilt all along, further to that they were not just remorseful about the crimes they had committed but had completely transformed as people from those they once were. This is clearly evident in their work and conduct in the prison over the past ten years where they have established numerous teaching programs helped countless inmates on a road to personal change and established a rehabilitation model that has been adopted by the Indonesian penal system and rolled out across the country.
What is truly sad for us as a society and is amplified in this case is our inability to recognise when genuine change has taken place and a man has become someone better.
I also take exception to the notion that the Feds bear responsibility in some way, its clear that they handed them over, but the reality is that had they not these guys would have served a few years in relative penal luxury (compared to Kerobokon) and been back on the streets planning the next job.
These men should not have been executed, in the end they had actually become good men. That’s very rare, they would have spent the rest of their lives working for Indonesia I suspect. So the loss and foolishness of this action is amplified many times.
I have no doubt about their eternal state, we are talking about a road to Damascus change here similar to a Saul of Tarsus murderer of innocent people who had one moment with the real Christ and changed for ever becoming one of the greatest missionaries of all time. That’s what love can do.
its not about the Indo laws...its about the corruption of process.....judges offered $100K...but Jakarta wanted them executed...the AFP let Mr Big go and dobbed in the mules....foreigners are executed Indonesians get commuted sentences.....
If they had all converted to Islam.......and not christianity.....there might have been a different result.......
Indo is 3rd world corrupt country.......and the latest episode in their country only confirms their status...or lack there of!
Media interest reflected the legitimate public interest - the public, and politicians, were interested because of the injustice of the trial, the AFP stuff up, Indonesian corruption and hypocrisy, the evidence of rehabilitation and the personal connection made to Australians through interviews with the condemned. Why conflate this travesty with Nepal or Americans killing Americans? - irrelevant. This is not about your friends in Bali Phil. Indonesia needs to pay big for this or it will happen again.
How many overdoses, new addicts, robberies and general social destruction would have resulted from what they were smuggling in if it had got through?
They didn't think twice about destroying other peoples lives and in the process destroyed their own.
It's wasn't a bag of weed or non-FDA approved medicine. It was illegal, highly addictive and deadly shit that would have fucked anyone that touched it.
Another run would have been organized by the syndicate within months of this bust.....maybe not thru Bali but elsewhere..........these big players didn't stop importing Heroin because a few simpletons got caught...an 8kg loss of Hammer.....pfft.. would barely hurt there multi million $ racket.
WOD.....nothing at all..what you don't realize is the demand is created by the users...if there were no users , there would be no social problems nothing......
so lets make the death penalty for users and there might be no problems.....which you should agree to...
just to put it in perspective WOD....what would you recommend for pedophiles?
Hey Mr wax -on same go'es for Nicotine and alcohol ?Been reading a bit of a broad section of stuff over the last couple of day's on social media.Gee's there's a whole lot of"Special kind"of stupid out there.The punishment did not fit the crime.
Yeah agreed. It is utterly saddening reading Social Media commentary on this issue. Gonna switch it off for a while methinks.
today ,reading all the social media and forums ....is a very dark day for Australia....and just goes to show what a bogun country we really are....
No-one seems to be able to answer why the AFP didn't let the mules deliver to Mr Big..so they would catch Mr Big and the mules?
Mr Big has since retired in Sydney with his millions and the AFP ..were they paid?
Steady on Brutus....it's a dark day for Indonesia - not a dark day for Australia. People in Australia have opinions, no more than any in any other country. As Australia is so multi-cultural you would expect a diverse range of opinions. Who knows where these people are posting from anyway? Could be from Iceland for all we know.
Perhaps if Chan and Sukamaran dobbed in Mr Big themselves they may have got a more lenient sentence? Not exactly sure why they didnt - perhaps they expected payback on their families if they did.
Whatever the case the punishment did not fit the crime but it wasn't Australia that exacted the punishment - it was Indonesia.
Just curious - how do you feel about the Huxley sentence? 30yrs OK for taking someone else's life in cold blood? I don't know how I feel about it to be honest - the murderer lives but the victim doesn't.
the mr big stuff is total speculation. we cant assume or predict or even try to understand anything that the afp did because were not in their loop. full stop.
To take a slightly different perspective, what I have observed over recent weeks is the deliberate manipulation of public emotion by the media. They gave this story legs and ran detailed high profile pieces on every aspect of the case. I'm sorry that they were executed but that is the limit of my emotional involvement. Take my advice, save your tears for those you know. If you are concerned about the fate of others, do something. Your tears are a waste of time.
The other side of this, beyond the emotional abuse of the Australian public, is even more concerning. Every shallow, sentimental, nationalistic piece of objectionable crap served up to us acted only to decrease the chance of clemency. The rich guy in the big house next door starts telling you how to live your life, what do you do?
Given the emotional outpourings that also enveloped the community over ANZAC Day, arising in most cases from exactly the same source, I have to say I have serious concerns about our collective mental health.
Nice to read objective well considered points, thanks bb, I knew there still exists a world where critical thinking is undertaken.
Completely agree BB. I don't use social media and have tried to avoid this story as much as possible but the media's efforts to emotionally ensnare the australian public on this have been inescapable.
And as I understand it the indonesian media played the reciprocal card in their country. What chance was left them then?
But it was the Australian media who got what they REALLY wanted in the end.
MDM......the AFP were complicit in handing in the Bali 9 to the indos....and new there was a potential death sentence.
Even Clive Palmers jumped in and proposing a bill that no Australian Police can work with any Govt that could give the death penalty to an Australian citizen...and he's proposing a 15 yr maximum.....
I don't believe in the death sentence.......but when I read about pedophiles, and kids being raped tortured and then suicide ...its a big stretch......especially when they receive minor sentences....
"how do you feel about the Huxley sentence? ".... Mad dog, I think 40 years no parole would be better.... But 30 years make Kelsall 52yo when released... 22 through to 52.... The best years of ones life..... Gone..... He's a young runty guy, so I'm sure he's gonna end up as someones bitch on the inside (whether that's right or wrong) ... 30 years is a fucking long time mad dog......
I keep referring people back to the Andrew Mallard story.... The courts found him guilty, therefore the media, and therefore everyone believed it to be so.... I'm not in any way saying Kelsall is innocent, but there will be cases in the future where innocent people will be jailed.... Thankfully, W.A doesn't have the death penalty... Mallard is now a free man after over a decade in prison... It's really worth watching...
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specials/wrongedman/default.htm
Agreed Sheepy - that's why I don't like the death penalty either - in case they got it wrong.
Sometimes tho my belief is pushed to the limit - like in the cases of Martin Byrant, Kelsall and those people involed in those mass shootings in the states (Columbine, that picture theatre shooting etc etc).
maddog, in my opinion there are two good reasons to oppose the death penalty. The first is the one you have already stated, that mistakes can be made. The second is its degrading effect on those who have to impose it and carry it out. I think the general thou shalt not kill argument is weak given our tendency to murder large number of civilians in the interests of geopolitical stability.
"Sometimes tho my belief is pushed to the limit"...... Me too, mate... We're only human.... But when i feel my blood boiling, i have to just walk away, and calm down.... I had to do it re' the bali bombers.....
I've said it before... The most insulting thing I take out of this is the fact that Julie Bishop pleaded to the Indo's not to announce the executions on Anzac day.... The rubbed our faces in it.... They then executed them on the anniversary of Port Arthur.... Would an extra few days have made any real difference?
A low act by indonesia, regardless of pro or anti death penalty stance..
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-27/bali-nine-indonesia-ignored-anzac-...
Interesting piece Phil. From what Ive seen & heard this new President basically got the gig due to his hard stance on taking significant action in relation to illegal drugs in his country (amongst other things) a significant issue in Indo. In other words a majority of the Indos support his stance. So I'm confused by your sentiment that a majority of Indos will "suffer the wrath of the civilized world". Will they really care?
I wonder what the percentage of "rehabilitated" prisoners would be when you compare those on death row as apposed to those serving life sentences. I would of thought the insentive to "rehabilitate" yourself would be far greater on death row. That said the death penalty in this case wasn't warranted after all this time passed IMO.
In hindsight I think these two Aussies had done the time, were changed men for the better and there subsequent executions was a wasted opportunity on many levels.
Bang on rabs.
Also is this a media thing that he campaigned on hard stances or was it true? A few Indos I know also said he wanted to stamp out corruption too, and they are eager for change.
Anyways just some thoughts. It's been a tough day for the whole nation.
If you read the third section of this piece it claims a survey showed 86% support for the death penalty in Indonesia.
https://theconversation.com/bali-nine-duo-executed-the-view-from-indones...
......but remember government by opinion poll is not democracy. In a democracy we are supposed to elect wise leaders who will do what is best not what is popular......ha ha ha.
Yep read it BB. Was referring to what I'd read & seen beyond Phils piece.
"......but remember government by opinion poll is not democracy. In a democracy we are supposed to elect wise leaders who will do what is best not what is popular......ha ha ha."
Exactly.... Whenever I hear "majority support this or majority support that", I often wonder if polls were around in Salem back when they were screaming "witch" and drowning women for collecting herbs, what would've been the % who answered "yes" to "Should witches be executed"? I'd say 100%..... Wouldn't make it right, though...
So BB & Sheepy do you reckon that the Indo people are in a majority against the death penalty?
No.... Most support the death penalty.... But as I pointed out re' salem witch trials, or even if you had've taken a poll in 1939 nazi germany re' jews, it aint right..... I couldn't care if 100% believe the death penalty is the way to go..... I bet the overwhelming majority supported Hitler in cleansing Germany of gypsys and jews... Those who didn't were too scared to open their mouth.... I bet there are those in Indo "running with the bulls" so to speak..... it's amazing how malleable human beings are.....
I suppose there are those that support it in their own right & those that are "running with the Bulls"...like in any country....that's human nature. Look at the pro gun movement in the US!!
I agree with you that the death penalty isn't right as a rule of law. Then again the exceptions always need to be considered IMO. What's the point of keeping someone alive that has committed an unspeakable act against another human being, that has ruined or ended that persons life & that can be proven without doubt? You talk about your blood boiling, my boils when I hear of these kinds, like peodophiles, like rapist/murderers etc. These scum get to keep there lives whilst ruining others.....
No... No exception, mate... Go back and watch the Andrew Mallard link..... He'd be dead now.... 1 in 24 are NOT GUILTY, rabs.... That's the stats in the USA....Look at a classroom of kids... One of them...... Ok if it's not your kid I suppose.... That's over 4 innocent people per hundred murdered by the state to appease a primal revenge bloodlust..... No, mate...
You say they get to "keep their lives".... Could you imagine the rest of your life in a jail when you have assaulted say a 14yo girl, god forbid?.... I don't think it would be enjoyable..... But at least if that 14 yo girl came out years later and said she lied to get attention, the accused could be paid damages, and have some form of life..... No chance of that when you are 6 foot under.....
So when i see these horrid crimes on tv, I try to be as objective as I can... It's freakn hard..... But that's what separates us from savages....
Ohh, and one other thing Rabbit... You would've heard of "mission creep", where Aust sends a handful of troops to Iraq "for training only"... Then a chopper here, a frigate there.. A platoon of SAS... From trining a few iraqi soldiers, we've now crept into a full blown mission........ Same deal with governments and "death penalty creep".... Yeah it starts with just the most henious..... But if you have a hard government, next thing you know people are being hung for possessing alcohol... In the last decade, texas brought in a new law.... Murder by association, or "law of parties"....... EG - a bunch of young dudes decide to rob a shop... Now let's say your son is one of them, being a total dickhead, hanging with the wrong people.... Your son is the driver....... He waits in the car......"The leader"of this misfit bunch has a handgun..... The robbery turns ugly, and the "leader" caps the shopowner dead..... Your son freaks, and bolts..... The cops pick him and the other boys up........
Your son will now be sentenced to death, they all will..... But it was the "leader who did it... texas believes that the other gang members " had a certain level of involvement in a felony that led to a murder."
Death penalty creep....... But hey, the majority of texans are happy.......
Cheers for your insights Sheepy. I agree with the black & white status of the death penalty being to risky & the difference between being savages & showing humanity. Just hope your right that some of these other sickos I spoke of get a hard time behind bars......
There are some crimes so bad society is better off without those responsible. "Death penalty creep"?? - please, we have rapists and murderers getting a few years and getting out and doing it again. If the justice system is up to the task (questionable) then really nasty crimes with a high level of evidence deserve death on pragmatic grounds alone. Your son is less likely to be executed for a lapse in judgement than for your daughter to end up like Jill Maher. And, a majority of Australians have traditionally supported the death penalty but politicians block it.
Blob, I couldn't give a wet fart what the "majority of Australians support".... The "majority of Australians" watch shows like "the block", and used to have "melrose place" parties.... Couldn't give a fuck, blob...... The majority of germans once were in full agreement on throwing jews in the oven....
I'm not gonna try to change your opinion... But if you had your way , Andrew mallard would now be dead, and I'd consider you and all the brain dead fukwit sheep people murderers.... As I said, i am totally comfortable with Martin Bryant and Ivan Milat rotting in jail.....
BTW, Louisiana CREPT in an old law, where child rapists are given the death penalty......Brought in because knuckle dragging fucktard majority wankers wanted it so...
Now guess what has happened, Blob......... Child murder stats have shot through the roof...... You See, generally the child is the only witness to the crime, so the rapist now kills the child to try to avoid the death penalty.... The rapist was gonna get executed anyway if the kid testified.... So why not kill the witness......
Anyway, blob, if you don't like the lack of death penatly laws here, move to Texas........
It's called democracy...you may have heard of it. You may see your opinion as superior to the rest of us knuckle draggers, but there you go. If you detest democracy so much then start your own dictatorship where everyone can be abusive, self righteous ranters like yourself. I know of a child rapist that was put away, got out, was secreted in an unsuspecting neighbourhood near here by do gooders. After raping the girl next door he killed her to avoid getting caught and a longer sentence, not the death penalty. Being a brain dead Block watcher I would have preferred he was never given the chance. As far as Andrew Mallard goes, you should really avoid picking strawberries to feed your straw men - I favour death for heinous crimes with compelling evidence, not for Mallard or for Drug smugglers. BTW, if, as you claim, child rapists kill to avoid the death penalty, that would prove the death penalty is a strong deterrent. Good point.!
"as you claim, child rapists kill to avoid the death penalty, that would prove the death penalty is a strong deterrent. Good point.!"
Well.... That's just great.....Dead children proves your point? What sort of fucked up logic is that?
The evidence for Mallard at the time was compelling enough for a court to find him guilty...
" I know of a child rapist that was put away, got out, was secreted in an unsuspecting neighbourhood near here by do gooders"
Well good for you... We too know of a child rapist down here... he got 12 months..... Second offence, he got 2 years.... The prick is now living in up in Launy...... That's a court/sentence problem..... I'd far rather have a life no parole for first offence child sex offenders......
I also knew a guy when I was young...... He was 19..... He picked up a chick at a night club.... Ended up[ she was 15, but dolled herself to look 18..... She ended up being a bit of a psycho chick..... When the dude found out her age, he called it off...... She screamed rape....... It wasn't till years later, when she was in her mid 20s that she came clean, and the guy got to clear his name re' underage sex...... Too many set ups..... Too many corrupt cops.... Too many mistakes....... You can talk of strawmen, but 1 in 24 not guilty can't be argued with..... So many cases of wrongful imprisonment.... And I don't subscribe to "well a few innocent people being killed is ok".....
Blob, you can jump up and down, mate.... You can consider me a ranter, and you not.... Couldn't give a fuck...... But you aint gonna sway me on state sanctioned murder, no matter what the crime......
I just want courts and sentencing to hand down decent sentences, and not slaps on the wrist......
Ohh, and btw, all your talk of "majority" and "democracy" is bullshit...... Latest morgon poll (2009) was 23% in favour of death penalty for murder, 64% in favour of prison, and 13% undecided.... All morgan polls since 1975 have favoured prison over executions.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Australia
Don't let facts get in the way of a good story, Blob.....
1995...53% for death penalty, 36% for prison. The question in the poll was regarding generic murder, not exceptionally horrible crimes. The article also mentions support of the death penalty fluctuating as these type of offences occur. Those are the facts. Way I see it the death penalty could happen without almost all the problems you bring up being an issue while preventing released animals committing more crimes. Like the guy in QLD who bashed his aged neighbour to death and then raped her dead body...he'll be out agin after about 8 yrs. If a charge of Capital Murder applied to only the worst crimes and required a higher burden of proof then prosecutors would select the charge accordingly. This would satisfy all of the problems you mention while saving the taxpayer millions and protecting the public.
Ahh, you're ok, blobby.... In boxers terms, you've got a good chin lol.....
But in legal terms, your post is just "heresay"..... Post a link to this poll you speak of.... Then it becomes "evidence"
"Way I see it the death penalty could happen without almost all the problems you bring up being an issue while preventing released animals committing more crimes. Like the guy in QLD who bashed his aged neighbour to death and then raped her dead body.."
Very descriptive..... playing to emotion.... What would fix the problem would be decent sentencing so he never see's the light of day again... That's the courts problem.. iT has nothing to do with the death penalty...
"This would satisfy all of the problems you mention while saving the taxpayer millions and protecting the public."
No it wouldn't...... They all "lawyer up"..... Often at the taxpayers expense.... Most on death row serve at least 10 years, with legal wrangling, appeals, psychological tests, etc etc etc, cos their life is on the line.... A huge cost..... Backlogged courts......
Plus you open the door to lawyers arguing "what is a heinous crime"? A woman who pre meditates poisoning her millionaire husband for the inheritance..... Not as "descriptive" as raping an already dead body like your story above.... But she meticulously planned it, and the husband "writhed in pain as he defecated his insides out, choking on his vomit, and the last thing he saw was his wife smiling at him, laughing, whilst having sex with her toy boy who helped plan the whole thing".....
NOW THAT'S DESCRIPTIVE!!!!! ;)
Of course, she'll plead years of psychological abuse...... She'll get off.......
That was your link that I cited. You identify legitimate challenges in actually implementing a death penalty while whistling past the fact that these monsters do get out, do walk the streets, and do commit more crimes. Legal imperfections and lawyers exist with or without the death penalty. Your solution of "throwing away the key" just isn't used or doesn't work. Some criminals are just not deterred by prison. Why not make the punishment match the crime?. Why not have a legal system that can dispatch those unfit to live?. Why not use the best deterrent you possibly can to protect future victims? You can argue on compassionate grounds or on practical implementation against the death penalty. You may want to prevent the possibility of innocent people being executed. All good, but some crimes are so evil compassion belongs to the victims, and a decent system would protect both the accused and potential future victims.
If our government is serious about being pissed about the execution why don't we stop foreign aid to Indonesia,we give them hundreds of millions every year see how they like that but our gov is full of it
oh yes, punish the most underprivileged in society to make a point. what a great idea *sarcasm*
Lots of underprivileged in our country, mate.... And besides, right now I think Nepal needs that money more than Indo' anyway......
There is enough to support MORE people e.g. both Indonesians in need and Nepalese in need. And it doesn't have to come from the those struggling in Aus, either.
Clif, I just think we have been very supportive of Indonesia since the Japanese came sweeping down in ww2... They shot the balibo 5 journalists... They've done some pretty dodgy stuff in Timor/New guinea... As neighbours, it's not like we've had the music up loud after 10pm......
I'm just really put off by them.....
uummmppphhh I hear you sheep dog, but the Indos have an ace up their sleeves as the worlds most populous muslim country they could easily become another Turkey on our door step....
How about targeted sanctions and opening up that foreign aid to more scrutiny, transparency and accountability?
The AFP are dobbers ,but it saved a whole lot of hurt from getting to straya cunt.
I think Brutus and others make the most valid point by asking why not chase the big fish.
Anyway, bigger issues in the world to worry about than 2 dead smack smugglers.
Yeah, you're right.... Our government asked a simple favour from our neighbour not to announce it on Anzac day and they said "fuck off you white colonial Ozzie cunts... Here, cop this..... This is for Tony's tsunami comment"........
Yep, move on.....
the double standards in the nations collective psych is truly fucked up. The yanks have dusted by execution 1400 odd humans in the last 4 decades and the moral outrage about them is where exactly?.
Anzac Day means less than nothing to Indonesia.
I appreciate Anzac Day and even I don't give a fuck what day an announcement is made, why would they ?
Last time I went to indo, I had to read and sign some sort of visitor / tourist card. It said Indonesia has SEVERE drug penalties, including death. I agreed and entered.
It Shouldn't havent taken ten years. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions these days. As if people will stop going to bali. Cheap,warm surf holiday will win almost every time.
I think the penalty here was way to harsh. But They rolled the dice.....
How much will those paintings fetch...!
Any chance the two men had ended when we got busted spying on them.
When I think about the grizzly end for any prisoner on death row, it makes me sick. I think it's the thought of how it must feel to know exactly what's coming and yet have no control or power to stop it. This is particularly so for the firing squad. I can't begin to imagine the horror that must entail. I can't ever imagine committing a crime that would put me in that place, so I can only imagine standing (or sitting) in that position an innocent man. And it makes me shudder.
There's no doubt that what these two guys did was deplorable. I remember thinking they were the worst kind of criminal and had absolutely no regard for them. But they didn't deserve to die. No one deserves to die at the hands of another, let alone the State.
The rehabilitation aspect is an interesting one. We'll never know if they would have rehabilitated to the same extent had they got life in prison. Perhaps their process of self improvement came about from knowing they had numbered days and that created a motivation to make those days well lived. Perhaps they started down the journey to curry favour and earn a reprieve and found themselves better people. Or perhaps they saw the error in their former ways and decided they needed to make things right. It doesn't matter of course, but it seems their faith and transformation was genuine. For that I can find some admiration for them.
I remember as a child being horrified, saddened and mildly curious at the death of Barlow and Chambers. Two men, if memory serves me correctly, hanged in Malaysia in the mid 80s also for heroin smuggling. I think that time contributed to how much I appreciate the final scene of Breaker Morant. The bleak beauty of the landscape as the sun rose created a moving contrast to the grotesque reality of state sanctioned killing. Offset by Morant's last words in the face of the English firing squad - the epitome of the defiant Aussie larrikin.
Here it is for those looking for something melancholy to watch...
May they rest in peace. And may their families find peace.
For me, the interesting thing was that on all media, this incident got more coverage than 5000 people being killed in Nepal and the obvious help it needs.
Can anyone tell me one benefit heroin can give to a human, maybe an od in a euphanasia case. They were greedy, got caught and were used as a lesson to other western organised drug crime groups.
Religion had no bearing and yes all the hype around corruption maybe true, but while I would have preferred them a life sentence in jail, they paid the price for greed in a known area where they knew the penalties to this issue were high.
Two aussie drug/ crime men shot, big news when we struggle with an ice/alcohol problem in australia, and we would call them the worst of the worst if we caught them in australia. Especially if their heroin had gotten out into the community and killed people.
Media coverage huge as is outrage, yet thousands of nepales are dead tonight and many sleeping out in open. puts it into perspective really.
I dont support the death sentence but I do support stopping people making profits selling heroin to anyone.
"Can anyone tell me one benefit heroin can give to a human.."
You gets lots of sleep, hence you don't age as much, look at me.
some good indonesian perspectives at the conversation, where one poll found 85% of indonesians support the death penalty.
https://theconversation.com/bali-nine-duo-executed-the-view-from-indones...
also,
In the same opinion poll, 57.8% respondents were willing to cut off diplomatic relations with any country that failed to show respect for Indonesia’s law, including Australia. This noticeably high percentage shows that, for most Indonesians, national pride is something important to hold on to.
and the smartest thing written from any australian media source
http://m.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/bali-nine-executi...
It is us who needs the business, and it is us who must consider our response, in light of these executions, very carefully.
"Rather than to precipitate a bitter 'tit-for-tat' response from Indonesia's young and inexperienced government, a better way maybe to work is to build the relationship with our northern neighbour and assist them to develop as a young, vibrant and hopefully civil society."
if we're so big, or developed, in our own eyes -which seems to be the case - we need to be the mature ones.
how can you expect indo to respect anzac day after the crap abbott said, he started the race to the bottom.
This story must sell newspaper and drive internet traffic. Plenty of keyboard warriors, heaps of crocodile tears, plenty of bold chest thumping about 'I don't believe in the death penalty' (and I don't) - but, I don't think the Australian public really actually cares about these unfortunates. Why do I say that? Just drove by the Indonesian Consulate. Were there crowds of protestors? No. Nobody. Where there bundles of flowers? No, about 4 only. Notes? No. Photos? Maybe, must have been small. Who was there to stand up for what they believe.... umm. nobody this night.
so true daverave, and why wasnt there such a fuss about van nguyen in singapore? bcos Singapore isnt expected to be as subservient as indonesia maybe?
yeh brutus indo is muslim and corrupt just as america is christian and corrupt. culture money (disparity) and conditions make stuff like it is, i thought a man like you would undestand that better.
Indonesia might be majority muslim, but just for interest sake there is more Christians/Catholics in Indonesia than Australia about 25 million.
yeh im well aware of that indo d, its my favourite stat when aussies are indulging in some indo bashing. However indo's vast majority identify as muslim, which would be about 200 mil versus 25 christians and about 25 other. while maybe 200 milput muslim on their id card, most of them are a very relaxed style of muslim with hindu/animist influences, which makes a unique people very pleasant to be around. Having said that the society is very influenced by islam and its ways, which aint all bad in my book despite some of the negatives. plenty of negatives associated with christianity in my book too! like the modern day crusades you allude to.
People know how i feel and I'm happy that deal is done and proud of Jokowi for being strong standing up to interfering bullys and doing what he believes is right for his people and country (and yes his political standing)
But I will say todays reaction from Australian government and people is a joke, we are complete hypocrites, taking the moral high ground.
We get upset because Indonesia kills two Aussies who ignored the clear warning of death for drug smuggling in the governments OWN country (Indonesia has executed about 15+ foreigners over 15 years about half of them this year)
While in about the same 15 years the Australian government has sent trained Australians killers to kill in OTHER countries playing a part in killing hundreds and thousands of people and included in the causalities are always civilians including innocent women and children who's only crime is being stuck in the place they live, we do this in the name of oil or weapons of mass destruction that don't exist and now I'm not even sure what our troops are fighting for or about ISIS , terrorism..
How the hell do we claim the moral high ground and claim to be more civilised and call Indonesia barbaric?
We are 1000 times worse, we kill way more people and do it in other peoples countries.
Can't help but agree ID.
Estimates of the civilian death toll, both direct and indirect, in the war on terror in iraq and afghanistan are staggering, direct may be upwards of 150,000. Indirect?...hundreds of thousands more. No relatable faces to those numbers though....
Death is the definer of life. Lets not get too fixated on 2 particular individuals.
Spot on. Furthermore Australians suggesting that we as a developed nation have somehow a set of superior morals over indo are kidding themselves. It's just plain arrogance. Australia needs to tred carefully or we will be the losers here.
There is no mandate in Australia to stop indos death penalty not any other nation. The truth is that whilst the vast majority of Australians oppose the death penalty very few care much about these two, or indeed the facts about Anzac day.
Some inward looking is needed before passing judgement.
Hey Blue Pill people,
Check this solid coverage.
http://www.returnofkings.com/62338/two-self-confessed-drug-ringleaders-a...
From that article:
"Of all the people facing hard times in Australia and Indonesia, hit by cancer, poverty, mental illness, intellectual or physical disability, or injury from violence, why are the Australian political elite and SJWs robbing true victims of attention and channeling it towards two inveterate drug smugglers?"
Having thought about this yesterday and overnight, I was coming on here to basically write something similar. It really is a matter of perspective and balance. Why so much media attention for these two?
The other aspect I keep hitting in my thoughts ...how many people outraged by the death penalty have actually done anything to lobby about it? Like really? All so up in arms and offended by these executions, all very vocal on social media, forums, sites this this etc., but really what have any of them, any of you done to try and change it prior to this? And, what's more, what are they, are you, all going to be doing to try and have it changed? Have you looked into "how" even, or are you are armchair critics? It's easy to bitch and groan, but to take action takes effort ... do they, and you, all have the will to follow it through, or will this all disappear once the media stops banging on about it?
The best article of read on the issue 100% true…and glad it points out the advantage those with money have of having the option of rehabilitation compared to those that do not, everything in an Indonesia prison depends on how much money you have, no money no resources for things like paint etc even if you can do things like have an area to paint.
Perhaps their rehabilitation is real, but i can guarantee that their legal advice after there first appeal to have the death penalty rejected was advised by their legal team, I'm certain it even would have been advised that they needed to get religious , if not there legal team was not doing a good job on advising them on the best chance to gain clemency, lets not forget they are in jail with nothing to do for 24 hours a day, positive change painting etc (if you can afford that privilege in an Indonesian prison) would be a great way to pass the days, anyone that has started doing good will know, it feels good, I'm 100% creation it started as a motivation to get off death row, but thats not to say it didn't become real as time went on.
I actually was thinking about this last night, Ive always thought how smart that move was and expect it will be tried again by westerners overseas even though it did fail, its still worth a shot.(no pun intended) its a no brainer its your only chance.
Last night i thought about it though in a different way, yes mart move, but also not smart, Indonesia could never give clemency based on this because all it would do is give approval for other to do the same.
Ive also thought about why he choose Christianity not Islam, i think this would have been a very hard decision to make unless he real had a root of true beliefs to start with, choose Islam and you gain some support from Indonesia and some Aussies but many Aussies will be sceptical of your motivations, choose Christianity and you win over the majority of Australian public (whom will yell you can't kill a minister) but your not doing yourself any favours with Indonesian support.
Which brings me to the second point of why their legal team would have advised these two too rehabilitate or at the very least appear rehabilitated, to gain public support in Australia and from our government in that sense it has worked very well and under SBY I'm certain the Australians public, media and our governments pressure it would have worked to set them free, unfortunately for them SBY didn't have the balls to make a decision on those on death row for fear of political fall out and put all executions on hold for years, he even ignored their official clemency request and didn't give them a yes or a no.
I don't have the time now but latter i will get to explain what the Australia media has not told us about why Indonesia try to save there own on death row.
very good points in that article, a little suss about that site, not sure I'd reference it but i have to agree, one of the best things written on the whole saga.
not sure their rehabilitation was so contrived though indo d. i think like you suggest just nothing better to do really than be good, and ten years is a long time to find stuff to do, so i think a natural development rather than a contrived effort to sway public opinion. ten years to live an extended life, to enjoy and redeem yoursel, or ten years of torture depending on which political points people are trying to make.
i think they went with christianity because it was genuine. michelle Leslie now that was a contrived corrupt freeing of a guilty westerner playing the game very very well. converting to islam, doctors letters about addiction, and no doubt paying the right people. australians didnt make a big hoo haa about the indonesian corruption then. i cannot believe no one in the medias has revisited that story.
Yeah what a great article, 'solid', deals with the real issues, much like the article before it, "12 reasons why your woman will end up cheating on you', and the article following it,"7 ways to tell if your sports memorabilia is real". I know where I'll be going for all the important well covered issues from now on.
How much has the Australian taxpayer contributed to this circus? How many roads, hospital infrastructure, etc. could have been improved instead! Shouldn't have dragged on for ten years though. Asia has been totally degraded by western white trash culture.
As much as we like/don't like the Indonesian governments decision we all have to respect that if you go to someone else's house you have to respect their rules.
The drug smugglers know the risks and run the gauntlet trying to make a buck but they know the game they are playing. As fellow surfers we all know if you push the boundaries long enough, eventually your going to pay the consequences.
Condolences to the family members these guys risked leaving behind.
I also feel for their family members unfortunately Indonesian courts are corrupt and I do believe the stories that a lesser sentence could have been gained if they payed up the $130 k or whatever it was for a lighter sentence, unfortunately not only do the families have to live with these two deaths and that pain, they also have to live with the fact, that they could have saved their lives if they had payed up, that is sadly going to haunt them.
And your still "proud"of the president?!?
The corruption in Indonesia didn't begin yesterday. It has always been their. We all know about it.
I disagree that the death of these drug smugglers is the families responsibility. You have to be responsible for your own doings. Even Andrew Chan agrees with this... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3060842/My-life-perfect-example-...
The sad part is the loss of a family member that could have done better with their life, even though they chose otherwise.
yeh brutus indo is muslim and corrupt just as america is christian and corrupt. culture money (disparity) and conditions make stuff like it is, i thought a man like you would undestand that better.
All democracy's are corrupt.....Western countries are Christian and Indo is muslim and 3rd world.....does not make eiter right.
Indo you say the family should have paid the $130K.....they tried but Jakarta had already decided on the death penalty...which tells you there was a level of corruption all the way to the top of the Indo Judiciary system...which is accepted by the President you admire so much......and as far as the rehabilitaion went .....peple who question their faith and being a Christian to the end should read the report ofn their death....
No Blindfold , singing amazing grace ...the other 6 prisoners joined in......and in the end they were happy to die as it was Gods plan......might have been the worlds best actors??
For all of you people who say they they knew the law...would you agree we should have the same law here?? no second chance ...no chance for rehabilitation....exterminate.....
and yet in Australia Priest /Pedophiles get short term ..because Australians maybe admire them...and we just let em go after short periods of incarceration.....Fuck the kids is OK.....but if kids get caught smuggling heroin Kill em???
Aussie aussie aussie oi oi oi!
geez brutus you are all over the shop, i know you love a little sarcasm, so much so that posters often think you are agreeing with them but...
just a little clearer please, one minute you are talking with bb about jail for users, next your asking about portugal's permissive policies.
anyway you seemed to bag indos muslims culture that's all, would you expect any different from a muslim country? a muslim developing country? not third world because that term is not used by the pc crew anymore. but a country slowly but surely finding itself, hovering somewhere between third and second world i guess. which means its legal systems are developing, trying to overcome thecorruption associated with all developing countries. indo has always had what historians describe as a dual economy, a hangover from colonialism, this has made corruption a part of their culture, unfortunately. like australia overcomingits drinking culture it takes time. i woyld argue sby did well targeting corruption whilst not being assassinated, jokowi, an ignorant commoner is just finding outhow hard it is to overcome a culture of corruption. culture takes generations to change. australia inherited arguably some of the best systems in the world yet ee still have corruption at all levels and rich people still get an easy ride. do you expect corruption to end overnight?
yeh read the story about no blindfolds and amazing grace. no blindfolds their choice apparently, amazing grace quite a beautiful story really. i guess they had accepted and done all they could before their impending doom. having watch a mate go through a long illness and accept his fate, it can be a beautiful thing.
i think most people would agree with you about peadophiles, but really is it ok to kill them? maybe the gods just gave them bad genes. what about martun bryant, many saying kill him. plenty of stories painting him as an i tellectually handicapped man corrupted by a cruel society. your asking everyone else but what would you do in these cases?
one straight answer please
you are for either for state-sanctioned killing or against.
complicity = agreement.
zero sum game.
there's no hedging bets when it comes to such matters.
all the rest of the commentary is pontificating.
put me down on the no killing side.
onya cliff, i"m on the no killing side too.
but could you indulge me and pontificate a little about paedophiles
and the onya is for being straight up
not a judgementof right or wrong
OK Sypkan....yeah get a bit emotional when it comes to corruption...and the senseless killing of 2 individuals who had actually turned their lives around and became contributors to society and not takers!
After reading how they died...maybe Gods plan is to expose the levels of corruption in the AFP and the Indo Judiciary.....??
I believe in the Poruguese system of legalizing all drugs and that they are dispensed and sold by the govt.
In the whole debate about what punishment should users,dealers should get...there have been numerous people her who just say the death sentence is OK...because of the misery that is caused by the dealers......I say there would be no dealers without the customers ......but for those who ask for the death penalty for dealers...what should the penalty be for users...?
the crime of drug dealing , if you believe death penalty or even life imprisonment....what would your scale be for a pedophile?
I don't think pedophiles should be killed either........just put it out there so people might realize.....which is the greater crime and do we as a society try and scale the punishment to the crime!
I still believe Alcohol is way more dangerous than heroin....
umm, a bit off topic, but: no killing
compulsory ongoing and regular therapy treatment of sex offenders (during and after incarceration in purpose-directed facility).
Nb. many have experienced trauma themselves equaling "socio-affective problems in the area of self-esteem, emotional loneliness, social competence etc. and also similarly poor levels of victim empathy and high levels of cognitive distortions."
See http://www.sexoffenders-project.eu/upload/documenti/sexoffenders_docs_it...
thanks cliff and brutus, a perfectly reasonable position on all fronts...as suspected.
nice god idea, its gotta be like that
you make perfect sense talking about the portugal model re. crime and customers, but i really dont think people have the self control. read wannasurf portugal spots for some comments about good surfers who went too hard with the raves or pills or whatever.
yeh I've heard a doctor say you could function better in society with controlled doses of heroin than alcohol but hard for most to control the doses, human nature is a pesky thing.
determining jail times is a difficult thing. you hear big dealers doing one or two years, even months it sounds like nothing. but then some small time teenager does a month or two at the mercy of the hierarchy it seems brutal.
the non mercy of the hierachy is the only thing that makes peadophile sentences seem remotely fair. you have to try rehabilitation, but pretty sure many are beyond that. some are made, some are born, some are just evil.
Sypkan you keep mentioning that you don't think people have self control, this is a generalization and unfounded. Do you see huge numbers of people walking around drunk all day because alcohol is legal? Do you see huge numbers of people overdosing on alcohol? For the most part people don't use drugs to die but to get inebriated.
Re the Portugal experiment here is some of the statistics - http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decriminalisation-portugal-setting-reco...
Its far easier to control doses of heroin if the quality and delivery are regulated like they are in the UK medical system or doses of similar opiates are regulated in Australia as over the counter medications or prescription medication. There is no way of controlling the dosage in an illegal market.
What Brutus is getting at with a scale of sentencing is where does drug dealing sit on the scale of crimes? If you have death penalty for drug dealing then it is lumped in with the most serious of crimes like mass murder or pedophilia. There is no distinction between trafficking 50 grams of heroin or murdering 200+ people in a bombing.
how many pedophiles have ever been given the death sentence or even a life sentence, when their crime is against defenceless children.
Point about rehabilitating pedophiles.....yeah what do we do with them??
but back to the point..death sentence for 2 guys who were mules spent 10 years rehabilitating themselves ,helped other people in Jail....way over the top....they should have been allowed to smuggle the heroin back into OZ...so we got Mr Big!
that's a bit naïve...these two were the ringleaders of the 9! I wouldn't call them mules.
your confusing yourself by trying to make comparisons with other crimes....each country has a right to determine how serious one crime is to another. if you want to compare with pedophilia then you'll have to talk with Indo people. in Indonesia pedaphilia might not be as much as a threat to society as drugs? I cant answer that.
Plenty to read here and in other media.
One thing i noted - apparently 4.5 million indonesians are treated for drug related issues every year. Almost 15,000 die.
Widodo platform for election was to execute drug dealers/smugglers, and he won.
We need to respect other countries laws.
I personally feel for the family of these guys, but they knew the risks and took the chance.
The media here are totally to blame for zealous over exposure.
I think our relationship (politically) with our closest neighbour is vital.
Any anti indo backlash will be all the fuel muslim extremists need in that country to grab a larger foot hold.
Hard to surf Padang with no head.
i dont think many would argue with your last sentence brutus. it seems these two were bargaining chips for cooperation on terrorism or someone is scared of mr. big.
silicun you make great points about there not being too many people falling down and around now despite alcohol being legal. and regulation would be a wnderful thing, but there is still the problem of who gets what and how much they get, and how they take it. most people are chasing an intense experience which means pushing boundaries.
portugal model sounds good, but i do think a big deterrent to drugs is the stigma. more acceptance erodes stigma so more people might try meth.
and meth is a big problem here, very morish. i smoke weed, i occasionally take party drugs. if convenient reliable party drugs were more or legally available I'd probably take more. take weed in sa, very plentful, little stigma, almost acceptef publicly until recently, fuck i smelt it at a circus ole thingy once. pretty harmless but not good really.
drug dealing is not (should not!! ) be even on the same scale as heinous crimes. and paedophilia is knid of on its own.
"there is still the problem of who gets what and how much they get, and how they take it. most people are chasing an intense experience which means pushing boundaries"
There is not a problem of who gets what and how much, depending on the model there are appropriate regulations in place as per alcohol (see licensing, RSA, age limits, advertising restrictions, DUI legislation etc etc) removing prohibition doesn't mean open slather. Most people are not chasing an intense experience, the vast majority, vast majority of alcohol users and recreational drug users do so responsibly and conservatively.
"more acceptance erodes stigma so more people might try", acceptance and greater availability do not increase usage, this is an age old argument for prohibition, it is not supported by the evidence, take a look at the statistics for the Portugal system or the Dutch system.
Scott rush .com.au
Read the " family prayer"
Cecl Netherlands heroin model. Govt doles it out in supervised facilities, even make it. OD cases, deaths and crime plummet. Proof in the pudding.
all these models are fine, but they are all medical models. what about the casual user that doesn't want to present themselves as an addict?
or do people just make up fake ailments like the medical marijuana model being undertaken in parts of america?
didnt scott rush's dad tip off the afp? bet he didnt think things would pan out as they did?
They are not all medical models, Portugal isn't, nor is the dutch decriminalization of pot, several states in the US have legalised pot for recreational use, there are many others around the world that show similar positive outcomes.
Yep his dad contacted the afp to let them know he thought Scott was heading to Bali and was involved in some illegal activity and asked if they could do something to prevent him.
yeh some of that sounds good silicun, especially when you say you cant go open slather, im not trying to be difficult i just want to hear how some of you guys envisage it all rolling out, though i think others see it way different to you.
yeh just read whole scott rush story at the australian, a tragedy within a tragedy, especially for him, really wss just a dumb kud. seems maybe no big afp conspiracy too. just some sloppy police work, trying to win a bit of favour, and some overzealousness from two police forces. still not cool.
http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/how-the-afp-trapped-the-bali...
Not difficult at all sypkan, its an interesting topic to me. I'm not the one to propose a solution to ending prohibition that will fit Australia, there are far greater minds on the task and it will come sooner or later. The legislation for decriminalization of pot is being nutted out quite seriously ATM, there is a pool of legal minds behind it and the first few discussions of medicinal use and hemp legislation are creeping into the public realm. It happened with alcohol, the world didn't end but the bootleggers and gangsters quickly went out of business. The war on drugs has seen similar failures as prohibition of alcohol, to quote Anton Chigurh, "if the rule you followed led you to this then what good is the rule"
Mr Jarrett, good read nether the less.
IMO the weather at the moment is way more interesting than talking about two dead heroin smugglers.
RIP.
Lets move on so all the intellects on here can discuss something else that will go round in circles again and again;)
Speaking of the weather, I heard its freezing in Bali. Minus two apparently.**
**Jokes, sorry.
Bang on.
Literally.
There was 8 though.
Red neck noise! Australians should look at them selves! Before handing out advice too other Countries!!!!
All you fuckwits out there defending the right of the indo government to kill humans
right or wrong just have a little think about the Bali bombings that killed 88 Australians and those low life coward scum bags are free and walking the streets no doubt planning there next cowardly terrorist attack on innocent civilians children as well, how just is that you tree hugging weapon heads. Not to mention we gave them a billion $$$ because Australians are decent but stupid giving them so much help to about the most corrupt government on earth. Just wonder how much was pocketed and how much was used to purchase weapons to attack us.
Let it be known I hate drugs, drug dealers and mostly drug addicts for causing havoc
and being so weak to be hooked but murdering any of them I don't think so.
Those two so called Australians that were murdered well they didn't even look like Australians to me but they didn't deserve to die never the less no doubt the AFP felt they did. To finish off I fucken hate the typical indo arrogance I really hope Australia actually really fuck them up with holding all there begging aid we give them.
Dude did you miss the news that three of the Bali bombers got death, others prison sentences depending on parts played and evidence and yes sadly I'm sure the length of some of those sentences on how much they could afford to pay the judges.
Its the same deal with the Bali nine, the two ring leaders got death and the others a jail sentence.
Yes foreigners get treated more harshly and yes the courts are as corrupt as all fuck…and that is just one more reason to not only avoid smuggling drugs within Indo, its even a good reason to not even smoke a joint or drop a pill in Indo.
BTW What you don't read or rarely read in the news in Australia is that in Indo terrorist quite regularly get shot dead in police raids, i should add up how many they have killed now but it seems quite a few, it was actually only about three weeks ago that police killed a terrorist leader in Sulawesi.
While we do fuck all, if the Sydney siege happened in Indo the sniper would have taken him out at the first opportunity, while here if they did that there would be public uproar and as a result it dragged on and innocent people died.
ha ha..yeah Indo has been arrogant and i bet they gave the 72 hour news on Anzac day just because we asked not too, as a fuck you, we will not be told how to do things….but also look at it from the Indo side of things the arrogance our government and people have show, we ask for clemency which is fine, but when we get a no, we don't accept it, it like its not Indo's decision to make but ours.
This whole issue only servers to highlight how much lack of understanding we have between each other not just the government but the people.
Its funny for me, i now can understand and see both sides very well how each view the issues both government and people.
About foreign aid, you obviously have no idea many of the reasons we give foreign aid to Indo apart from funding things like aid organisations that many Australian organisations rely on the money, a lot of the reason we do it is for our own benefit to help create stability etc to help keep Indo a good neighbour rather than a bad neighbour so we can work together on issues. http://dfat.gov.au/geo/indonesia/development-assistance/pages/developmen...
We won't stop foreign aid i don't even think we will reduce it it would be stupid move for us long term, since the Bali nine got sentenced including those two that got death our government has actually increased the Indonesia aid budget.
The fact is in regard to the Indo-Aussie relationship we need to keep it good more than Indo does, politically in regard too two important issues that aren't going away and will only get bigger the Refugee issue and Terrorism.
Currently from a trade perspective i believe Indo needs Aussie more, but from what I've read that is predicted to turn around in the near future as Indo is one of the fastest growing economies in the world with a fast growing middle class.
Their is also the security issue currently all is good and even public view of Australians is pretty good but, but if things changed and we had an enemy of 270 million on our door step it would be real good, they have an army ten times bigger than ours but old technology and we have more powerful allies so no problem there, but if Indonesia got together with another country like China we would be screwed.
evosurfer, sometimes a few have to sacrificed for the many,
In indo, old mate looks STRONG, in Aussie we play home and away, then ambassador- pulled out, the prodigal son returns but aussie taxpayer pay for him,
We then all agree on crime against drugs. Same people make money, i ill let u sort this out for yourself!!!!!! PEOPLE HAVE MADE LOTS OF MONEY OUT OF THIS!!!!
Interesting to see last nite there was a report, that a ministerial directive to the AFP from the Abbot govt.....took out a clause in the MO of the AFP.....that the AFP could work with Govt's that had the death penalty.....beore no!
So what does this actually mean? It means before the AFP could not work with Indo , and give up Australians to Indo law......
when you see mules taking the rap ...and the Mr Bigs always go free...hmmm...when was the last Mr Big of any organization caught in Australia....??
the illegal drug trade in Australia is in the billlions now.....how much kick back is there to the authorities.......how organized are the Cartels and their franchises......
when the AFP are investigated it will be interesting to see why they left the MR Big alone....and gave up the mules.......and let Mr Big retire?
when you look at the Indo law .....death penalty for dealers and/or importers....should be automatic life sentence for possession.....so anyone caught in bali for possession.....or even with the drug in their system ( saliva test)....life in prison...if the Indos were serious , and not too busy accepting bribes....they would clean up Bali!
The last Mr Big they got was Mark Standen......who was one of them.
nah udo.....standen was just a bad cop who tried to deal his way into some money...what I am talking about is organisations that have existed for a long time and are a fully functioning just as a business Co , would run....eg...check out the Mongols , U S based bikies , now in Australia , have the franchise for the Mexican cartels.......and now firmly entrenched in Australia....
evosurfer,
didn't "look like australians"?
wtf?
uh nope!
and nope, apparently?
wtf?
.
Say it Udes!
And the makers of "chopper", "Underbelly", "Milat", "Chappelle", are busy writing the script now........... CHAAAAAA CHIIIIING!!!!!!
Don't worry, we're only days away from the hordes with .com attention spans forgetting and moving on to the Joe Hockey unfair may budget, or some 16yo muslim and his mates being linked to the so called worldwide organized death cult.....
It'll all be over soon.... Just tune into 9 or 7 morning shows, or the project, and get your latest dose of "what you should be feeling" from the experts on the opinion couch...... It's all good.......
gee welly...which ones the aussie....oi oi.......glad we locked up all those useless blackfellas....so modern aussie could flash the 6 pak(Hahaha)....and his great yoboness beer drinking style.....Australian Pride!
Exactly Brutus that is my point, the real Aussies are the indigenous but looked what happen to them ....!
Disgraceful eh!
Then apparently its the 6 pak and his great yoboness beer drinking style.....Australian Pride!
Ouucchh.
maybe we should get a new jingo going..yobbo yobbo yobbo oi oi oi!
Geez Welly, I wouldn't be getting too down on the Aussies....let's not forget the pakehas tried the same in NZ.
Getting a bit tired of the Aussie bashing fellas.
Likewise Blowin, I get a bit tired of the Kiwi bashing as well, but hey aren't we ANZACS side by side...?
My point was with those photos................
Who are Australians...?
Anyone can take what they want from those and I will leave it at that, apologies if my sarcastic sense of humour has offended anyone.....
Blowin, the British army suffrered many an arse booting up and down the country at the hand of very skilled battle technicians. The Maoris kicked arse, along the way they invented modern trench warfare and anti artillery bunkers. A Btrit-centric history will gladly forget the real facts about the early attempts at colonising NZ
Were all Australians Welly.
If you're born in Australia or if your heart tells you that's where you belong then you're Australian.
After those qualifiers, no one is more or less Australian than anybody else - including whether your ancestors were here since the Big Bang or whether your bloodline is here till the end of time.
The rest is just bullshit made up by bitter divisive cunts of every race , colour and creed.
Fuck some of you mongs carry on with a lot of dribble.
Tell it to your hookers you bitter fuck.
What's an "Australian" look like to you evoknob?
White skin, blue eyes, blah blah blah.???
And if you hate The indos so much why keep going there year after year after year as you've proudly claimed to do?
Dumb racist cunt
Not bitter just saying as it is. No political over blown correctness from me.
What are hookers?
Because its convenient easy and quick to get there and back has some good surf pretty obvious really so who is the dumb cunt.
Racist slightly maybe dumb no not really.
"tree hugging weapon heads"
Nah, your still the dumb one pal.
Race on buddy!
Im racing in 2 weeks at Sydney motor sport park, come along and say hi.
Evosurfer! Do you drive a Mitsubishi? What would the KKK fink about that?
Fink about what and whats KKK?
it's pretty poor that we still wet our collective beds over drugs. the world needs to grow up.
if we properly regulated heroin then there'd be fewer deaths, certainly less than from alcohol.
same with most of the shit folks OD on.
regulate drugs, tax the fuck out of it and pour the money back into cleaning up the damage. a nice little self perpetuating process.
it'd be nice if the tax on alcohol went straight back into cleaning up the mess that shit causes.
Fuk u Abbot ... threatening to take away foreign aid for the sake of a pair of smack dealers!get your priorities right ya cunt! All the people who need our help are now directly affected by the actions of two opportunistic heavies. And to all the do gooder trendy latae sipping lesso and poofter art loving actor cunts get a dog right up ya!!!these pair of cunts were dealing in death and they got their just deserves. Public opinion says they had changed. Anyone would change if they had a gun to their heads! Where would they be if they weren't caught ?How many families would they have ruined?
evosurfer...bu not much evolution as a human being?
Ugoinm8 I actually I agree with most of what you say but you also must take into
consideration the piss week minded losers who take drugs in the 1st place.
Nobody put a gun to there heads either.
now there's some aussie aussie ois....but reading the context of the posts...one can only cringe.....at the bogan mentality...
Evo ..you can't be slightly racist...you are or are not...so you are!!! Amazing you never have had drugs.....must be some kinda he man.....no alcohol, no pain killers, no drugs for disease .........??
As for UG.......one of the more twisted views I have read.......good to hear that by executing the 2.....families have been saved.......and idea of how many.....was it just the parents kids , grandparents????
Ugoinm8 I actually I agree with most of what you say but you also must take into
consideration the piss week minded losers who take drugs in the 1st place.
Nobody put a gun to there heads either.
Evosurfer, can I just say thanks on behalf of the world for stoically avoiding drugs so that you managed to preserve your impressive mental dexterity and limitless cognisance and allowing the world to bathe in the enlightening glow of you're well considered insights.
It must have taken some steely mindfulness to avoid the pitfalls of drugs so you could focus your powers on sinking schooners instead.
You goose I dont drink beer either and certainly don't go to pubs or clubs for a drink. I drink very very little waste of time and money you piss weak wanker. Took nothing
to avoid being a sheep.
Avoided all those fun and good times and managed to remain a cantankerous fuckstick.
You're killing it.
Yes I have done quite well for myself and so far had a amazing life and the reason why is I avoided these weak pitfalls. But you never know maybe hit by a bus today.
Cool. Glad to hear you're happy.
Well.... It has descended into a cesspit..... And as per usual, blowin is involved.... ;)
I say that cos' I know blowin has a good chin, and he doesn't mind leading with it......
(STILL waiting for you to point out where I called you a racist lol)......
And, BTW, have you ever EVER taken a stance against a majority view? Or is it a case of just joining the masses cos it's safe? You see blowin, the majority isn't always right... They can't be right 100% of the time.... It's mathematically impossible.....
you're right sheepdog, the majority arent always right because...
the problem with democracy is you count the heads but not whats in them, Albert Einstein
and...
democracy is a terrible system but its the best one we have, Winston Churchill
"democracy is a terrible system but its the best one we have, Winston Churchill"
Yep... Spot on.... The chances of having a benevolent dictator aren't real good..... So I too will stick to democracy, with all of it's wondrous flaws....
I'd love a good benevalent dictator,
so much more efficent
syp a kan...just got it...I agree 100% that a benevolent Dictator is the way to go , as democracy is , well, Not!
One mans benevolent dictator is another mans oppressor.....
Cut and posted from something that popped up on my FB feed.
This is a post by a police officer regarding the hype around the Bali executions and it's something I think more Aussies need to read ................................................. I can’t believe the mentality of people. I have been in law enforcement for 34 years and have worked in many areas within the force. After 9 years in, I spent nearly 5 years working as a UC. (Undercover) attempting to infiltrate traffickers of all types of drugs including amphets right down to simple choof. What a world of pain and misery. I was encased by the filth and self-destruction where I witnessed numerous deaths by either ODs or in a lot of cases suicides. Young girls selling their bodies for 10 bucks a go just to get their hands on their next fix. I remember one particular girl who hung around with the collection I was trying to set up. She was 14 when she was hooked and on the game by 15. Her body was so ripped and torn by drug and sexual abuse she had intestines falling out of her rectum as a result of numerous rapes and sexual encounters where she tried to get payment. Her child was taken off her when she was 15 by Human services but they could do nothing for her but supply treatment when they could. She died at 19. Alone in a back street. Where were you do-gooders. I saw you pass her on the street and avoid her all the time. I would give her food but she preferred to starve and get some smack rather than eat. I became depressed with my job after this time and had to eventually get into some other area. I guarantee any police officer who reads this will be thinking of some person they have dealt with in their career that fits this build. But all I see is you fucking wanna be Samaritans who treat these two drug kings as heroes. Ok I accept that you dont believe in the death penalty. I don’t like it either. But I am sure as shit not going to call on the PM to “Bring our boys home” No boy of mine would do this. The media and the solicitors have played you people for the fools you are. You have never lived in the world of drug, crime and despair. You have been protected from it so much you live in the fantasy world where you believe you can hug everyone and all will be better. You are not qualified to even comment as to whether these guys should get parole or not. Have a look at our system. Or have you forgotten already. Adrian Bayley. You paroled him. You say the parole board stuffed up and parole him. But the parole board consists of people just like you. With your opinions and beliefs. That was a complete and utter failure. This piece of shit was a career rapist and the only ones we can blame for what he did is all of us. Not the judge. Not the Parole board or the police. Us. The decisions like this that are being made are by people who never have to deal with these shitheads when they are in street mode committing crimes. You see them all clean shaven and in their court suits or white shirts becoming born again etc. You poor misguided fools. You don’t even care about the effects of what they have done to our society. Our penalties used to be tough and crime was low. When I started in the police force 34 years ago we called it “Marijuana” It was the biggest thing on the street. Crime was not rampant. Then the drug importing began and the addiction, the shift to powders etc and suspended sentences and here we are. Well your system has worked hasn’t it. Then you voice how much you hate police. But you ring us and run inside and hide whilst we come out and deal with the shit you don’t have the fucking guts to deal with yourself. But you are right up there on your keyboards bravely shit canning the police for excessive force and filming it on your cameras. Here we are in Australia expecting the world to fall at our feet. “Lets boycott Bali. Wow you heroes. That will fix them. Won’t mean shit. You think Australia props up Bali. There are more tourist from Europe than Australia there. And its mostly the bogans one and only overseas holiday destination. Henry Chinn. Know him? Bet not. Well he is on death row in China for trying to smuggle 270 grams of meth into our lovely country in 2004. Have you given a shit about him yet? No. Why? Cos the media hasn’t spoon fed you the crap to hype you up. Who are the two Aussies who were caught in China in last year trying to cart 75kg of ice to here? Davis and Gardiner. They are a couple. China has executed in excess of 1000 people in a 12 month period. But you still buy their shit every day. You hypocrites. These two Australians will be executed and you will still buy their product. Second chance you say. You think these people have no prior convictions. You think this is their first attempt. Wake up fools. Stop hugging yourselves. Two men died today because they broke a law in a country where they knew they faced death if caught. Had they have got away with it, there would be a countless number of 19 year old girls laying in the gutter dead. Quick run inside and tell yourself what a great person you are
Hmm all to true
Sunday church service today Mr Keelty.....enjoy.
Good points there as I have already stated I have zero time for drugs, drug dealers
and weak minded drug takers maybe they should of murdered them in ten days not
10 years without all the pent up media fuss. But I fucken hate the fact that the bali
bombers are walking the streets after killing 202 people 88 Australians bogons or not.
I asked a guru on Indonesian law on another forum about why it took so long? and I said it should be done within a year.
BTW he is strongly against capital punishment.
Oh and i should note for those that don't realise the previous president SBY also put a hold on all those on death row for a few years, that added to the reason it took so long, the reason he did this was because he didn't want public uproar internationally or domestically because what ever decision he would make, allow sentences be completed or give clemency either Indonesians or International community would not be happy..
Anyway his response below :
I know NO country on earth which is able to do so. Perhaps there are, but honestly I doubt it and concerning Indonesia, I am adamant that it can not and will explain you why. We are talking about:
an investigation phase
a prosecution phase
an adjudication on a district court
an appeal on the high court
an appeal on the supreme court
a first judicial review
a second judicial review
a request for a presidential pardon
These are the rights for ANYONE who is charged and sentenced in the Indonesian Judicial system, Bagindo. Not only Andrew and Myuran, but all convicts on death row and ALL people being sentenced. We are talking about ten of thousands of cases a year.
Do you really believe that a judicial system can do that in "a year or two"? I don't want to sound offensive Bagindo, but if you believe so I kindly suggest you to ask around in Australia to know how long it would take to conduct to its term these procedures.
It's not a question of [you] and 50% or so of Australians" who have to agree or not with me. It's a question of being realistic and you were not. Any country on earth would need several years to complete the procedure and the fact that they are on death row doesn't give them less right than any other convicts.
If you want to do it in "one year or two", you would have to suppress them some of their basic rights (ie: at least the cassation and all the judicial review). Just for the record, there is 1 High Court per province which has to review all the civil and criminal cases of the province and only one Supreme Court which has to review all the civil and criminal case of the nation + all the judicial review... and there is only 1 president who has to review (the Supreme court judges give him an opinion though) all the request for pardon sent to him. I assume that you understand that this is not a priority for him (or for any president who has the power of issuing or refusing a pardon).
Just to give you an even clearer picture and that you realize how unrealistic your 10 months assumption (first post - "like 9 years ago") or "one or two year" (second post) were. There is, by law, a maximum of 60 judges in MA (Supreme Court), working in panels of three, and they have to review more than 20.000 cases a year (around 13.000 perkara registered in a year on average + around 7.000 cases not adjudicated of the year before). It means 1.000 cases per panel and per year, at best. And you know what? In 2014 there was not even 50 active judges in MA, more than 10 short of their legal maximum. I think they were exactly 49 but need to double check. Out of them, only 15 were working on the kamar pidana (for criminal cases) while the rest were working on other kamar (agama, perdata, militar and TUN). I can't remember any year in the past 10 years where MA had more than 50 Hakim Agung. The kamar pidana with it's only fifteen Hakim Agung receives more than a third of the annual total number of perkara/cases. Do the maths and tell me how realistic your assumption was... Just for your information, and in case it is still obscure, at the district court and High court level, the situation is not much better.
It's not like if we could nominate hundreds of new judges to fasten the process of the judicial system. Your round the corner bengkel owner or tukang bakso would probably not be eligible. There are conditions of experience, diplomas, age...etc.
what a moron ....as usual some 1/2 baked cop....takes the high road...and considers that Chan and Sukumaran were , " drug kings,"........sounds like this cop was a soldier doing his job....but the fact that he bases his argument on Chan/ Sukumaran as the Mr bigs..he is in LA La La land......
"Two men died today because they broke a law in a country where they knew they faced death if caught. Had they have got away with it, there would be a countless number of 19 year old girls laying in the gutter dead. Quick run inside and tell yourself what a great person you are."
man what a stretch.......dead 19 year olds dead in the gutter if we hadn't have caught the Bali 9....all based on one experience...no mention of the real dealers or heads of the crime syndicates......who just don't ever seem to get caught........
this cop sounds like a bad one.......
There is no guarantee what so ever that even if they waited until they had got to OZ that they would get MR big, those guys are smart and probably protected by corruption.
These two weren't drug kings, but they were want to be drug kings, working their way up from I'm sure first mules in previous runs to on ground ring leaders, next step would have been more low risk and I'm sure their ambition was to be at the top one day, they basically admit it in interviews.
You have to remember in a normal bust on the seven mules that these two would have walked free both were going on separate flights without drugs strapped to them.
In a normal bust the seven would have got caught and taken 100% blame, those seven would not give info on these two for the same reason these two never dobbed in those above them, because if they did they knew their families would be harmed.
And under that scenario people would be going, what about those above them the real criminals? where are they?
And Brutus, most retired cops realize it is the system, not the drug...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Against_Prohibition
yeah sheepy...notice one of the bd members is Jack Cole...hehe......
Its amazing how LEAP is the opposite of the cop who Indodreaming posted.......
try and imagine the business lobby from the cartels not wanting to make legal any of their products..and as they have billions to spend in cash.......we get the anti-legalization lobby......who represent ....???
It's a HUGE business, brutus.....
In fact, even with ice, I'd rather an addict go and see their doctor, get a script, and go home and buzz..... At least the gangs are out of business, the old couple down the road don't get their house invaded by a desperate junkie, and the addict may have a chance at healing by having to see their doctor twice a week.......
Probably one of the most blindingly obvious, common sense statements I've read in ages.
Cheers, zen...... Hey mate, just wanna go off topic briefly whilst your here.... Is Japan tv playing the mayweather pacman fight free to air? If yes, you wouldn't have a link would you? ;)
Sheepy re the fight ...Philipinos watching on home tv s have been asked to turn there fridges off when its on to save a huge power over load happening.
Awesome, I'm stinging to watch this match but I can't bring myself to sit in the local, I wish there was a live stream. So is PAC gonna do the job or is it gonna be a repeat of mundine/green?
Sorry Sheepie, it's on the WowWow channel here (that's really the name) and it's pay per view.
Hahaha, that's hilarious, I can't believe someone actually took that piece of fiction for real, indo you do realize that is written as fiction to appeal to people like you, its not written by a cop, the only things real in it are the small sprinklings of news items. The mainstream media is bad enough with the emotional manipulation but social media is completely unvetted be careful what you believe mate. Read some accounts by actual cops and you will realize how stupid this is.
I do have to question aspects of it (in particular the intestine bit and ten bucks, $100 would have been more realistic), and i agree it well could just be fiction, but it could just be an exaggerated true story.
I do know a retired cop that is married to an Indo lady and he is pro death penalty and his view and stories are quite similar.
On the flip-side I kind of think its a joke that people believe these two didn't aim to be or appear changed JUST because it was their best and only chance to save their butts.
You can 1000% guarantee that if they were caught and locked up in Australia that would not have suddenly become a pastor and artist helping others, the chances are very slim that if they were only facing a prison term in Indo they would put in so much effort to appear as perfect people.
And you can guarantee they wouldn't have changed like they did if they hadn't been caught.
You could be right indo about them trying to save their arses by going down the reformed route, you hear the same all the time in cases within Australia and elsewhere, when criminal's non parole period comes up they have to argue their case for being reformed and being allowed back into society.
In this sense and other points of that piece of dribble I agree, certainly some b-grade celebrity telling the prime minister to go there and 'bring our boys home' is a fucking joke and I've said from the beginning the celebrity involvement in this fiasco is no more than desperate attempts at attention grabbing by attention whores that they are and this ties in with the media over interest.
Non the less its a shitty piece of writing, lying to people to try to prove a point that they logically don't prove anyway. 'Powders' only started being imported in the 80's?????? Australia had a large scale cocaine scene in the 20s-30s I guess this was all being produced locally. Opium has been available in australia since the 1800s and so have laws dealing with it mainly aimed at Chinese as part of the white Australia policy. Heroin became popular during the 1960s with american GIs bringing it in. I could go on but I think I've made my point, whoever wrote this is not a cop and has no clue about what they are talking about. As for drug laws being weaker these days than when he started in the force, wrong again, generally drug laws are far tougher these days. No offence to you, several of my friends posted me the same piece, I just hate this sort of shit because it perpetuates stupidity.
Undoubtedly some police support the death penalty, they do see a lot of horrible shit but there are also many out there that see the failure of the war on drugs and it seems more and more common for cops to speak out about it.
hilarious but who actually writes this stuff........the cartels!
Maury san, pm sent through your website.
Cheers.
Brutus it reminds of the sort of shit you see Andrew Bolt or Larry Pickering write about muslims, completely unfounded but with enough emotional content to get people without much knowledge on the subject all riled up. Its being doing the rounds on FB with people who identify with that side of the debate reposting it, not only is it unfounded but the whole argument from that perspective lacks any logic as you have mentioned. If you want to argue that these two guys have to take responsibility for their actions, ie they deserve to die because they knew the laws, then you cannot argue the dealers in death rhetoric, by this logic the users also need to take responsibility for their actions and if that means selling your body on the streets for 10 bucks????????? Hahaha Wtf?????? Then why would you have any sympathy for them? Its sad that people can't see through this bullshit
One obvious difference I see is that users are a danger largely to themselves and a small community around them. The drug importers as individuals are however a danger to a much larger group and ultimately society. I don't care for addicts because they are weak of mind and spirit. however I do think that their crime is nothing like these two. These guys were predators upon the weak. It is of course impossible to draw any direct causal relationship between quantity of drug and number of overdoses, we can only guestimate. The punishment is meant to act as a deterent to others as much as stopping them in their tracks.
Importers and dealers don't force people to take drugs happy, you can't blame bottleshop owners for drink driving deaths. They aren't preying on the weak they are supplying a market of users, users who choose to take drugs for a variety of reasons. Some become addicts, some don't, it has nothing to do with being weak minded.
Sure the punishment is meant to act as a deterrent, problem is it doesn't work.
just because it didn't deter these 2 guys doesn't mean it doesn't work. if the sentences are made more lenient then it surely will work less. for every importer deterred there's a little less drug on the street, harder to get means it infiltrates social circles less....and if there is one sure way to avoid drugs its to avoid hanging around with those that use it.
secondly, when I say "weak minded" I mean to say that they are lacking will. an addict is someone who does not have the will and has lost the control to stop doing what is harming them. the dealers know it and therefore they are preying on these people. yes - ultimately its no different to an alcohol shop seller if you believe alcohol should be compared with heroin.
as you say the dealers are just supplying the market, and I agree that the real source of the problem is the users. problem is that to deal with the "users" as the problem takes a fuck load of effort, time and money. some people are just a little fucked up in the head and will bend that way. locking them up does nothing...they need help.
Every year for the last 4 years (of which I've seen data for) there has been an increase in the number of traffickers arrested in Indonesia, despite highly publicized cases, smugglers getting the death penalty and being put to death, people have been caught running trafficking rings while in gaol, as a deterent these results seem to suggest its not working real well. The amounts of drugs seized are miniscule in the grand scheme of things and do not make a noticeable difference at street level. The answer is not simply to make sentences more lenient it is to change the system (see portugal, I posted a link above which discusses the statistics) and to regulate/stop the supply at the source or with the large cartels, stop pretending to do shit by busting small time drug runners and users.
Addiction is more complex than being weak minded -
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/addiction/
http://www.rehabs.com/pro-talk-articles/looking-for-the-likely-cause-of-...
Dealers are not preying on these people, preying implies that dealers are proactively seeking users out and forcing them to buy drugs, they are not. Even if an addict were to be refused by a dealer because the dealer had some moral objection to selling to them the addict would soon find another avenue. Huge volumes of drugs are bought and sold online these days, ever seen an add come up on your screen for illicit drug sales? No because users seeks them out, the market is there. I have no problem comparing heroin to alcohol, they are both drugs, they can both kill if abused, both highly addictive, heroin is less harmful physiologically.
Your right the user end of the equation is too vast to police and IMO people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and minds as long as they are not harming others, drugs aren't all bad news but prohibition brings with it certain dangers as have been discussed
.
The whole drug debate is actually irrelevant anyway.
Its very simple, we all know the deal that certain countries have the death penalty for drugs and we all have a choice to either risk our life's and smuggle drugs or not smuggle drugs.
How easy was that Indo ?
I've got lots of mates that are dealers and yet none ever deal in Indo.
Why?
Because Indo has the death penalty for drug trafficking .
i heard about a new drug on RN yesterday called chaperone, designed to give you the effects of alcohol whilst avoiding the hangovers and liver damage.
I'll take two pkease
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11350365/Pop-a-sober-up-pil...
,
Re the cop story and drugged teens. I lived in Melbourne during a smack epidemic and saw with my own eyes kids shooting up and people overdosing on the street. I was offered a blowy for two bucks. Shit was fucked
You should have given him $5 :)
She was a horror show dude. Wouldn't have gone there if she had paid me. As far as societal problems go it's better to have smack on myour streets than meth. At least when they smacked up they are pretty harmless.
I was just fucking with you Inz.
Totally agree, filthy filthy drug meth. Wouldn't go near it with a ten foot pole. Earlier today sheepdog said something that I can't quote verbatim but totally agree the current approach to tackling the 'war on drugs' has been an abject failure.
AFP will today explain themselves on the Bali nine...........10 years on .
Drugs.... It's an industry.... If all drugs were decriminalized, and supplied via a script from your doctor, the economic ramifications worldwide would possibly throw the world into one of two directions.... But I am not an economist...... It would be scary new ground...
Scenario one - a world recession....... Trillions of dollars are changing hands... TRILLIONS..... And macabrely , cartels and mr bigs buying yachts, property, paying crooked cops, politicians, fake companies would cease..... In area's where there is no welfare eg- East L.A, grass root street people who rely on drug sales because they have no chance at employment would have no income, and possibly turn to different forms of crime (Better the devil you know?).... Perhaps kidnapping and violent robberies would increase, because for every action, there is a reaction.... Russian and south american drug cartels may turn to more gun running and other ventures, because there will always be a crime element in society, whether drugs are legal or not.... Perhaps more scamming, more warehouse robbing.... Insurance premiums go up..... It'd be a brave new world....
Speaking of "for every action yadda yadda", police would lose a huge amount of their budget, no longer having to chase drugs.... Lawyers would be out of work..... The moral crusaders would look for other things to justify their judgementalism....
Scenario two - a worldwide boom....... Government would be rolling in cash..... The insulting amount of money wasted on a war that will never be won would be freed up.....
So fuck knows..... (btw, this is purely hypothetical - the chances of all governments agreeing on the type of icing used on a cake is zero to none, so i could never see world wide decriminilizsation of farting in public, let alone drugs.....)
AFP just held a press conference....still no answer why didn't they put surveillance on the Bail 9 and follow them back to Australia and bust a whole syndicate ..including mr Big.......
read the report on the alleged supplier of the heroin and why he was shot dead....neighbours say he was alive when he left his residence...police say he was shot in his residence...http://www.theage.com.au/world/bali-nine-drug-supply-suspect-killed-in-s...
The request of President Aquino and the Filipino public remained largely void of moral condemnations against Indonesia and was not positioned as a “demand from above,” made from a superior moral high ground—as opposed to Australian tirades of “barbaric Indonesia,” “corrupt Indonesian justice,” “ungrateful Indonesians” and “weak Jokowi leadership.” Most importantly, the manner in which Aquino lobbied Indonesia was culturally sensitive and provided Jokowi the option of being the hero—an opportunity denied when Australian efforts targeted Jokowi’s international image and forced him into a political cul-de-sac.
http://globalnation.inquirer.net/122263/indonesia-why-aussie-pleas-faile...
Good article all 100% true pitty its not an article in a major Aussie press, the thing that most Australians don't understand is that both the public and governments actions only ensured these two deaths, IMHO they only had less than 0.1% chance anyway but even if it was a 50/50% chance the results would have been the same due to a lack of understanding of how to deal with Indonesia and most importantly a lack of respect.
Australians don't understand is that both the public and governments actions only ensured these two deaths,
yep, so much so, i understand self righteousness bogans making arseholes of themselves, but the government and media should know better. there will be no lesson learnt though because al of the above are still behaving like self righteousness bogans.
shouldnt expect any diifferent from australians i guess
Indo - " the results would have been the same due to a lack of understanding of how to deal with Indonesia and most importantly a lack of respect."
sypo - "shouldnt expect any diifferent from australians i guess"
Bullshit.......
How to "deal" with Indonesia???? "Expect any different from Australians"???
So, the Netherlands, Brazil, Nigeria, Malawai, and Vietnam also don't know how to "deal with Indonesia"?? They're "bogans" too??? Surely the Dutch know how to "deal" with Indonesia....
Those poor Indo's..... So misunderstood..... By the whole world it seems... Playing the victim....
not playing the victim sheepdog, its just that there is a certain way to do business with different countries, and asian eays are very different to western ways. australia has sort of worked that out with countries like japan from years of experience. unfortunately there is a long way to go with indonesia. very unfortunate and arrogant considering our proximity.
while we shouldnt group all asian countrirs together, if we showed half of the respect we show to singapore or japan we could have got a lot further. instead we just burnt all our goodwill for zero gain, actually the whole relationship has gone way backwards and neither side has learnt anything due to both digging in their heels.
havent followed the other countries dealings sheepdog but I'll bet their dealings where nowhere near as petulant as ours
Certain ways of doing business with other countries for sure, in the case of indo that means paying the bribe. Anyone notice the maid claimed to be duped/forced by an international drug syndicate and then later her release was due to her cousin coming forward and admitting responsibility. So of course the maid has to be given clemancy at the last minute so that she can help with the trial back in phillo.
I guess these Iranians also knew how to do business with the Indonesians - Iranians, Mosavipour bin Sayed Abdollah, 36, and Moradalivand bin Moradali, 32, were arrested by the National Narcotics Agency on February 26, 2014.
They were caught picking up 40kg of methamphetamines in bags which had been buried in the Tangkuban Perahu Nature Reserve in West Java.
The Iranians were sentenced to death in January, even though the prosecutors only sought sentences of 15-20 years.
However the death penalty was overruled by the Bandung High Court on March 30, according to the decision published on the court website on Monday.
Lol 40kg and there doing 20 years, how could you not respect a legal system like this?
Exactly Sypkan
I can understand you view Silicun but if you don't do things their way or the way it should be approached and you come in like a bull in a china shop you will never get anywhere.
Its different if its an issue where your dealing with them on your own soil you can do as you like but when its an issue where its on their soil or they have the upper hand like the refugee issue, you got to do things the way they expect, from what i understand its not exclusive to Indo but most of Asia.
I didn't say YOU were playing the victim.....
And I wouldn't risk money on a bet re' "petulance" in regards to other countries... You'll lose.....
http://www.smh.com.au/world/brazil-and-the-netherlands-recall-ambassador...
Indo is a corrupt 3rd world country...everybody knows you can normally pay your way in and out easily in business or crimes....
Bali is awash with every drug know to man.....Bali /Hindu ...Indo Muslim.....conflict in culture and values just as Australia has with Indonesia....they are a 3 rd world country...trying to become a democracy with a western business culture.
our Bogan PM led the charge with is foot in his mouth and has had his behavior rewarded with the deaths of the Bali 2....the AFP decided not to let the whole ring of the Bali 9...come back to Australia......because ......they might have uncovered the whole distribution channels from mr Big to all the users.....but it was too risky...so they say...?
so sypakan...yeah Aussies are now seen as a bogun culture.....with a bogan PM.....will Australia be able to understand Indo.....from a boagn perspective...NO!
read that article sheep dog, nothing there to show they were more petulant than us. pulled their ambassadors and some strong words. we did that with some significant hissy fits along the way.
the dutchman, running "a large ecstacy factory"
hardcore, id love to see what a large ecstacy factory looks like amonst an Indonesian community. hardcore shit run by a crazy dutchman of his face on ecstacy, crazy shit
Abbott made one petulant comment.... One..... re' tsunami aid..... And you know I am not an Abbott fan..... Australian social media has also been full of support for Indo's stance ..... Even JJJ had a poll backing Indo... So it depends on where you want to look, sypo.....
We've been a good neighbour, sypo, even turned a blind eye as the indo's murder and pillage Papua....
"yeah Aussies are now seen as a bogun culture"....
Are NOW seen as a bogan culture????? Do you remember Bazza Mckenzie? Paul Hogan? Kingswood Country? Norman Gunston? Alvin purple?
Our culture has NOTHING to do with it, just as Brazil's Culture has nothing to do with it... The dutch culture has nothing to do with it... Nor Nigeria, Vietnam, Malawi....
It's Indonesia's culture and corruption that has most to do with it...
Here's the list of executions for 2015... SO FAR...... Note not one murderer, not one child molester...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Indonesia
And for the pro Indo' "death penalty for drugs mob".... Please answer this..... If the death penalty in Indo' is such a good deterrent, why are there 14 executions on that list? Why hasn't the death penalty stopped ANYTHING???
Sd, unfortunately there is no deterrent to violent crimes because most of them occur in the heat of the moment or in cases where the offender has some mental problem ie serial killer acting by compulsion.
However, I am on the fence regarding capital punishment as a deterrent for non violent crimes. I believe it has a deterrent effect. Btw, the statistics cannot prove not disprove the success of deterrence. Where it obviously won't work is on people who are desperate, poor etc. there will always be people who will take the risk. And that's fine in my mind.
Statistics do prove that the death penalty doesn't work, why has there been more than 100% increase in drug traffickers arrested in indo in the last few years if the death penalty is a detterent?? Poor and desperate, running an ecstacy and ketamine factory like the French guy who was caught recently kinda blows that theory out of the water. Ain't no small cost in setting up/running a factory like this. The things is its less of a deterrent if you are rich because its more than likely you'll be able to buy your way out or buy the protection of the police etc.
Easy to answer.
1. Corruption, there is always a second chance, corruption is the thing that really fucks it up.
2. Have a look back over the execution history, there is fuck all, its never been implement properly, and for a few years SBY put it on hold, its like if you say to a kid you do that one more time and I will (insert your punishment) and then they do it again and you don't do anything but just say..just one more time,,,,the kid won't take any notice.
Also giving clemency willy nilly has the same effect
Im 100% behind Jokowi what he is doing is exactly what Indonesia should be doing, setting a strong no fucking around example, and not giving clemency willy nilly.
3. The Indonesian system is inconsistent mostly due to corruption, Singapore's method was much better and that was using weights and amounts for mandatory death sentences making it fair and consistent, and not only did it deter drug smuggling but those that were caught were bringing in smaller amounts just under the limit for death, hence less drugs coming into the country or even if there was the same amount there would be more people bring it in, increasing you chances of catching them.
All that said truth is Indo will never stop drugs the country is just to big, and the majority of drugs don't come in by plane they come in over the ocean and with 17,000 islands so close to other countries you could never cover that.
End of the day it doesn't really matter, only criminals get death and it has advantages over other systems like ours, having the ultimate deterrent factor and a 0% reoffending rate.
The only negative it can have as you often point out is innocent people can get death, however there is ways to overcome this, for example only giving death to drug smugglers caught with commercial amounts on them or inside them, and giving prison sentences to those caught with it in luggage etc, again giving people the choice of risking their life or not, and if they don't risk their life and put it in baggage the advantage is its easier for authorities to find.
Or for murder only giving it to cases where there is undeniable proof, for example a gun man rampage, terrorist attack, or somebody who has done multiple killings on different occasions with concrete evidence against them in both cases.
1) corruption......means ...that there is money being paid to all levels of Govt......if you are part of a large drug smuggling empire .....you are protected.....and if there are any small independent dealers/organisations.......the Mr Bigs get to give them up......or in the case of the Bali 2 it was the AFP...which still cannot explain why they didn't follow the Bali 9 back to Australia and arrest the whole organization ,except the AFP was not confident in its own police to be able to stop them ...duh....a dirty deal was done somewhere! Corruption by the AFP!
2)So you are a 100% behind Jokowi..even though you admit and know that Indo reeks of corruption...and that some people are used as examples , but those with Mr Big connections are let go or not even arrested......the death penalty is a deterrent?? NOT!
It is obvious that Indo executes drug traffickers and mules....and has zero tolerance policy....and as you say clemency...willy nilly....does this include other coutries Govt's stepping in.....Corby???
3) Singapore...you cannot compare the 2 ..as one has very advanced western economy and is a relatively tiny island/population Vs the other which is a 3rd world corrupt Country...with 20 times the population spread over...how many islands....??
the only negative....some innocents die??
So lets only kill the smugglers who have it on them....in their....possession? So you are actually saying that let the Mr Bigs go.....?
whats your position on child abuse......and for that manner what are the penalties for child abuse under Indo Law??
I can't be bothered replying to your points you have your view i have mine and nothing we say will change each others views.
BTW. The so called suspected MR big on the Indo end was shot dead by police..google it.
Indo dreaming...points of view are based on facts...called opinions...I was just very interested to see what facts you had behind your opinion.......
I read about the so called supplier killed by the Indo police...2 conflicting stories......the supplier who was linked to a woman , who was let go back to Thailand.....she was the boss of the supplier.....but she was let go ......
I would still be very interested to hear Indo's policy / law on child abuse in relation to drug dealing and possession??
I agree sheepy...actors who were pretending to be bogans..and now we have the real deal ..a bogan PM which represents Stralya......
executions in Indo will not deter anyone...as the Mr Bigs are paying the Govt....and the small time crims get given up by.....you guessed it...organized crime......
Surely if Indo sticks to the death penalty for dealers.....make life imprisonment for users .....give the 1st hundred users, life sentences....and that might stop the consumption.....but then all those bogan aussies who go to Bali ...might not go......and ....?????
there is a certain way to raise issues and displeasure, it is not by talking down to people
from the article above...
The Australian barrage of cringe-worthy diplomatic blunders concerning the latest round of executions might not have happened had Australian intellectuals provided their politicians with sufficient context-rich and timely advice.
and. .
Western culture values debate as an impassioned and wholehearted form of discussion, while Indonesian culture views it as a failure to discuss matters in a civilized manner, a breach of politeness and a breakdown in communication.
we had a couple of hissy fits, were impolite enough to mention the tsunami, then threatened to withdraw aid.
yeh we try to be good neighbours but then we fail at the basics. the aid australians are so fond of raisung doesnt equate to much as it funds australian wages in ausaid.
im just dissapointed because we blew a papua size amount of goodwill influence on two drug dealers, really stupid
oh well maybe another few decades before we're in a position to raise the papuans
Raising the west Papua issue is a whole other deal, Australia is completely compilcit, the only thing that will be raised by the government is more money, training and personelle to help the Indonesian military operation of genocide against the west papuans
Consumption of mind altering substances will never stop..... Ever..... Been doing it since the first cave man licked a toad.....
Mind altering substances have been used in ceremonies since day dot.... I don't have a problem with that, whether it be a Chinese mountain tribe kicking back on opium, some peruvians chewing coca leaf, a bunch of saxons brewing a mead, Indians choofing tobacco.....
When it comes to celebration, people like to "loosen up".... The problem is when people have emotional issues and turn to that substance not as an enjoyment tool, but a medicine to make the "pain go away".....
I hear ya sheepy and agree. Certainly there is no reason to stop as I mentioned above my belief is that you have a basic right to what you put in you body and what you do with your mind, it doesn't belong to the state. Is disagree however that there is a problem when people have emotional issues or other issues that cause them to 'self medicate' again I think people have a basic right to their bodies/minds as long as they are not harming someone else. who am I to tell them not to dull the pain? In a sense that is what 'loosening up' is after a hard week at work or a tough day with the kids.
Tony Abbott couldn't give two halves of a fuck about these guys, just like the media, for him its nothing but an opportunity to do some political point scoring with the people he needs to the most, yep the oi oi oi crowd, that's where he needs support, and what do you know, popularity has surged in the last few weeks and he sits about he equal with shortening now, what has accounted for this? I haven't seen any policy announcements!during this time.
Well it's just so convoluted, silicun re' "I think people have a basic right to their bodies/minds as long as they are not harming someone else"..
What is "harming someone else"? If someone drinks every day, fucks their liver, and then spends 6 years being helped via medicare, wont the "MY TAX" crowd say that person is harming all of us? I've seen this argument with tobacco.....
Yeah I don't buy that its a spurious argument, your tax is gonna be collected any way...only two things are certain in life....and its certainly not causing someone harm, maybe harming their bank balance if anything. Direct harm in the sense of someone paralyzing someone else in a drink/drug driving accident or getting drunk and bashing someone. Personal responsibility for your own actions.
Well I agree... But many don't.... "that money could've gone to the headless baby children fund"..... or "you harm the economy, you harm the battlers blah blah blah".....
Like I said its a spurious argument, tax money will go to health care anyway, be it for the headless baby foundation, medical expenses of all the battlers dying from their smoking habit or numerous other burdens that they themselves place on that portion of the tax income, the pitious amount that it is compared to what the government throws away on a defence budget to support the latest war we shouldn't be involved in or fails to collect from multinationals or uses to subsidise foriegn companies raping australin minerals. remember everyone even drug users pay the medicare levy.
Except many people, mainly youths, are not mature enough to control their drug use. Some grow up, others get hooked. Drug laws are there to help keep people from making bad choices. Sure, every once and awhile a jimi Hendrix is born but for the rest, it's sadly a case of lost opportunities.
Your right happy except for the fact that the only drug laws in place to help people avoid making bad choices are those for legal drugs, and they work fairly well - age limits for alcohol and cigarettes, advertising regulation, education, DUI and RSA laws, regulation of dangerous/addictive drug etc. Drug laws for illegal drugs do not work like this they are squarely aimed at total prohibition of use. To understand the reasons you need to understand the history of prohibition, in some cases it was bought about by a moral crusade by puritans and in some cases to protect the financial interests of companies producing competing products, prohibition is not about protecting the individual. If governments had this in mind we would see more harm minimization strategies and more education directed at the pitfulls of drug use.
"Drug laws are there to help keep people from making bad choices."...
Totally debatable.... But it's pointless.....
Canibus laws are there to protect people? OK maybe you can you explain that one to me?
MDMA, first synthesized in 1912, popularized by Alex shuglin a scientist who tested it and literally hundred of other similar drugs on himself to work out dosages and effects during the seventies. Outlawed in the mid eighties and people start overdosing on it because there was no way of establishing dosage strength, additives etc, how does this approach protect people? Now its being used in research again for PTSD and other psychological treatments. I could go on and on with examples like this but there is no argument that prohibition laws do anything the protect the individual, if anything they make drug use more dangerous
I think if society banned alcohol and legalized MDMA the world would a better place!
there was an article yesterday in the Age about a recovering 21 yr old mother of 1...Ice addict....she says that in the rehab unit..nearly all the patients were of the same background....poor socio-economic,raped from the age of 7, and she seems to have picked up a few issues from her childhood....domestic violence is only now being exposed...
you cannot generalize on any one addict..especially if they are young , and they are a product of their abusive environment.......so they turn to drugs , because its the only thing that makes them feel good......now that's sad...
So it has nothing to with bad choices.....not sure if you can blame a 7 year old growing up with major life issues later in life....
brutus, I never said anything about blaming children for their lives and environments - somehow you got all that from "bad choices". bad choices aside, your example of a damaged person is a good one....how would legalisation of drugs help that person? sure, we don't want that 21 old mother in prison, that's no solution....however neither is giving the green light to substances that basically put you on another planet (marijuana excepted....don't get excited silicun).
Happy there is no mention in Brutus' post about drug legislation, he is making a point about their complexities of addiction, addiction will be there with or without drug legislation - http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/paracetamol-poisoning-how-addiction-to-overthe...
As I mentioned its a matter of education and proper legislation/regulation, you still seem to think that this means a green light to take whatever, however, that's not what anti prohibition is about.
Substances that put you on another planet...I'm not sure what drugs you are referring to but there are plenty illicit drugs that don't put you on another planet, on the other hand have you ever seen someone on lithium or antipsychotic/antidepressants? I've had experiences on antidepressants that would rival the worst experiences I've had on any illicit drug. BTW I always get excited when I here marijuana, its like hearing the teacher saying a swear word, there is still such a stigma surrounding drugs that its weird to hereit discussed in a forum like this ;)
I was referring to one of his earlier posts where he supported the legalization of all drugs to the distributed by the govt...so I wanted to know how that would apply to this lady? apologies brutus if I read that early post wrong.
like I said ...nothing against marijuana :) and other light level drugs. I smoked it plenty and only refer to that way since I haven't touched it in more than 15 years. I also watched a mate waste his prime years on that shit, and unfortunately nearly my life too, so its a bit close to my heart I suppose. but at the end of day its all about hard drugs for me- for example I just cant see regulated use of ice working.
I understand what you are saying happy and you make an interesting point on pot, it may be referred to as a 'soft' drug but thats not to say it can't be dangerous and harmful to lives as your example points out. My old man smoked pot and he was bipolar, there were times during my upbringing where he had total schitzo episodes, it was fucking scary and no doubt compounded by pot smoking. Conversely amphetamines (ice) can be used safely and they can be dangerous. Amphetamines are already widely prescribed and have been for decades, hell we even pump them into our kids in the form of dexamphetamine and Ritalin. I think 'soft' and 'hard' are unhelpful labels, keep in mind that both alcohol and nicotine fall into the 'hard' drug category. I think that the labels we put on drugs in general are unhelpful except their explicit names, sugar could be considered a drug by definition
Yep addiction is a complex thing and definitely a much higher representation in lower socio economic groups, my belief is similar to the thinking on population problems or disease problems with similar higher representaion in low socio economic groups, the key is education and policies which work toward equity.
If you think Abbotts approach was in anything more than political grandstanding and point scoring here is a glimpse at depth of his hypocrisy - http://m.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/foreign-affairs/abbott-ba...
Talking about hypocrisy and West Papua i have no problem with people bring light to problems in West Papua and support the Papua people but when i see non Aboriginal Australians supporting the Free West Papua movement to me its extremely hypocritical as they are basically telling Indonesia to get out of West papua when our situation is the same we stole this country and we have occupied it for over 200 years, its no different to if an Indonesian living in West Papua told us non Aboriginal Aussies to get out of Australia.
What's the old saying...."Everything before the but is bullshit. It's a useful hermeneutic rule when dealing with sentences of the type: "I'm not racist, but", I marched in support of Australian aboriginal sovereignty twice this this year already and push awareness of the situation and related issues and support the cause as do many other white australians.
Silicon, Brutus thank you for your excellent beat downs here.
@ brutus
The biggest mistake that you keep making is assuming that by letting them continue on to Australia that you will catch a MR big, the high likely hood is you won't, these people are smart they use others and cover there trails, all they do is basically provide funding and cash in, i guess that is why its been reported they know who MR big is, but i guess don't have proof to arrest him/her.
If they were allowed to travel through to Australia all you would get is seven mules, you might tail them or whatever and get one or two other small players (pawns), you would lock them up for ten years it would maybe make the news and papers once or twice, they would get out ten years or less latter, with a high possibility of reoffending or partaking in other crimes.
The two that got executed would arrive in Australia with no drugs, the evidence against them might not be that strong, best case scenario is they also get ten years, with a very high chance they will reoffend after they see how much of a joke our system is.
Ten years latter you have nine people back in society with high likely hood of reoffending, and you have no example of deterrent set.
Personally I'm happy with result, two wanna be drug lords got what they were promised would happen if they ignored the warnings, seven stupid mules got prison a try fair result considering they could have got death, and most importantly the example for another generation is set.
And if anyone decides to ignore the warnings IMO they get what they should.
I D.....the AFP knew who was the Mr Big....the AFP should be able to track and have surveillance on anyone coming into the country that is a threat to Australias laws and way of life.
the AFP can read all texts/emails and record all phone conversations......you obviously don't have any confidence in the AFP to do its job!
your supposition that the 7 mules and 2 organisers (10K each) cannot be taught a lesson or be rehabilitated by jail terms......cannot be true as the bali 2 did rehabilitate them selves......and Australias laws are relative to the crimes......
once again what are the penalties for Child abusers in Indo.....??
Not sure if its true but http://www.smh.com.au/national/suspected-bali-nine-mastermind-living-in-...
Come on we have to agree on one very obvious thing the reason why these two so called rehabilitated was for one reason only because they were on death row and knew it was their only chance to gain clemency with the added bonus of gaining public support in Australia equaling government pressure, sitting in a developed world prison that might be basic but is very comfortable and a lot better conditions than a large % of the world live under knowing they will get out in ten years or less = no rehabilitation.
Im not sure what child abusers get in Indonesia, i don't think its a crime you can get death penalty for, but i do know one thing if i was a child abuser (pedophile ) i would much rather be locked up in an Aussie prison than an Indo one, because your life would be even more at risk in an Indo prison than an Aussie one.
yeah Indo D...the article written in the age was the one I read and a couple of phone calls later I even found out his name. Why wouldn't C & M give him up...because he could harm C&M's family's.....pretty solid guys not to givehim up..
as for the rehabilitation...I am only going on what has been written about their time in Jail and that they had become model prisoners and helped many other prisoners.....
the real sealer for me was..no blindfold ,smiling and singing amazing grace....as were the other 6 prisoners...execution emminent...and happy to believe in "Gods Plan".....
Don't think they could have bluffed everybody pretending to be rehabilitated....
The reason I use the example of pedophiles...is that if you are going to execute people for drug dealing ,because they are potentially killing young people and ruining families....what do you do with pedophiles who rape baby's, young children ,systematically ,as per some of the churches....??
To me the greater crime by far are the pedophiles...and don't worry.....Aussie prisons can sort out child abusers.....but should the law deal with the 2 crimes on the same scale??
Certainly the UN and international law agrees with you Brutus -
"Indonesia’s position to retain the death penalty, particularly for drug offenses, is problematic.
First, the Indonesian legal community often refers to drug trafficking as an “extraordinary crime”, thereby justifying the extraordinary punishment of the death penalty.
However, labeling drug trafficking as an extraordinary crime is groundless from the perspective of international law.
Article 6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) — which Indonesia has ratified — states that for countries that have not yet abolished the death penalty, it may only be imposed for “the most serious crimes”.
Various UN bodies, such as the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, UN Human Rights Committee, UN Special Rapporteur for extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions killings and the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, have consistently asserted that drug offenses do not meet the threshold of “the most serious crimes” to which the death penalty may lawfully be applied.
In his 2012 report to the UN General Assembly, the UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial killings stated that the death penalty should only be applied for offenses of intentional killings, based on the practices of retentionist states and the jurisprudence of the UN and other bodies.
In March 2014, the International Narcotics Control Board — the independent and quasi-judicial body for monitoring government compliance with the three international drug control conventions, of which Indonesia is a member, encouraged states to abolish the death penalty for drug-related offenses.
The 1988 Convention against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances does not recognize the concept of “extraordinary crimes” for drug offenses. The convention places drug offenses into two categories.
First, drug offenses of a “grave nature”, such as the production, manufacturing and extraction of drugs.
Second, offenses that are “particularly serious”, such as the involvement of organized criminal groups in the production of drugs.
The 1988 convention does not explicitly recognize the death penalty for drug offenses.
Therefore, from an international drug law and international human rights law perspective, categorizing drug trafficking as an “extraordinary crime” and applying the death penalty to drug offenses is indefensible."