Sharks in Western Australia: Where to from here?
It was inevitable. The Western Australia shark debate has arrived at a point of stasis. The public discussion degraded to the point of protest, each side bunkered in their beliefs with little forward progress being made. The quality of debate is irrelevant now anyway; the first sharks have been killed and contractors are laying drum lines in other targeted areas. The war of words is over and the new system in place.
So where to from here?
Before we address that point it's worth backing things up a little. Try and get an understanding how the Western Australian government came to take the action it did.
Unlike many other common fish, humans have very little understanding of sharks. While they appear in some of the earliest stories humans told each other, and they still power the imagination to this day, our knowledge of sharks - particularly white sharks - remains at a rudimentary level. Surprising, maybe, but the reasoning is simple: white sharks have never been fished commercially, so therefore government and industry have had little reason to fund ongoing shark research.
Historically, when shark scientists did receive funding it followed a death (or deaths) and the subsequent public outcry. Also, when funding is received following public pressure it's weighted toward instant remedies: more boats for surf clubs, more aerial surveillance. Cynics would call those vote buying tactics, yet whatever the motivation the result is a serious lack of will to invest in a long term shark research program.
Since the attacks in Western Australia the state government has been forced to find answers, yet they're starting from a position near zero. The authorities wanted an instant response for an issue that requires years of research.
Considering the circumstances – seven deaths in four years – the call for a cull wasn't surprising. In course the Western Australian government consulted with chief shark scientist, Rory MacAuley. They sought to find the quantifiable number of sharks that could safely be removed from the stock without causing undue pressure to the population. What was surprising was the answer they received: the scientists didn't know how many sharks there were. They simply haven't had the resources to ascertain numbers.
*****
A few years ago shark scientists on Australia's East Coast discovered a white shark breeding area near Port Stephens. In terms of research potential this discovery was the motherlode as juvenile sharks hold the key to population size and distribution around the Australian coastline.
While tagging large adult sharks is valuable, those animals are difficult to locate, there are fewer of them, it's costly, and they don't provide an overall picture. Juveniles however, tend to aggregate in specific areas on a seasonal basis which makes them easier to locate, there are more of them so provide a larger case study, and they are easier to tag and release. They can also be fitted with a combination of long-life acoustic tags that allow their development to be monitored over many years, as well as short-term satellite tags that can identify their underwater highways and seasonal destination points.
The added benefit of working on juvenile sharks is the ability to extract tissue samples from a larger range of animals. Their DNA can be mapped for information such as age, sibling relationships, and parent relationships. From this scientists can extrapolate and deduce the population size, plus other factors such as how many adults are in the population and how often they breed.
All this information forms the pool of knowledge shark scientists need to make informed decisions. On the East Coast that pool is slowly beginning to grow and it's all due to juvenile sharks.
This research template, which was created by the CSIRO and successfully implemented on the East Coast, requires replication in Western Australia. Yet the hurdle – aside from a lack of funding – is that scientists haven't known where the shark breeding area is. If that sounds surprising then consider it was only around five years ago that the East Coast nursery was discovered. And near a hugely popular holiday town no less.
According to Kent Stannard of Whitetag, shark scientists are fairly certain they know the location of the western nursery but want to keep it quiet till it's confirmed. They are currently working with commercial fishers, abalone divers, surfers, and other ocean user groups along the Western Australian coast pinpointing the area.
While this media story is still fresh shark scientists have the backing to go to sea and conduct their research. The risk for those involved is that interest wanes and with it the urgency to fund such research. That would be particularly frustrating as they now sit on the cusp of a breakthrough. The risk for surfers, however, is if the research stops, because if it does we'll still be out there using the ocean.
Thanks to Kent Stannard from Whitetag for assistance with this story.
Comments
Stu where did you get your info that sharks have never been commercially fished?
Hey, smicko, the article said "white" sharks. "Sharks" have been commercially fished - gummy, black tip, but not "White sharks".
A good read. But I also wondered about the apparent lack of commercial fishing of sharks, presumably in oz. Maybe the flake we see on menus is bycatch from another fishery, or imported.
http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/Species/sharks/Pages/Shark-commercial-fishing....
There used to be several licences operating out of Perth too, can't quite recall exactly when they were bought out by the government but it was sometime in the last 15 years.
Interesting, but sharks not commercially fished?????
I have on numerous occasions heard that up 100 million sharks per year were being slaughtered for shark fins globally. If this is not a commercial quantity what is????? And that's not including Flake sold in most fish & chip shops across Australia.
Which countries sell shark fin soup? Are they not accountable because it is not recognised as a commercial fishery. Loads of questions sorry, but have we got our heads up our proverbial a@#$ again?
Wrong call on commerical fishing. Just ask you're friend Jeff Schmucker. It's good to see there's some progress being made in the field, because most shark discussion is about the right here and right now.
Cheers Smicko. Poor powers of deduction on show. The points about funding - there's never been a white shark research program in perpetuity - and level of research stands. Testament to that is the recently discovered nursery at Port Stephens.
Beyond the recreational fishing, I want to know if anyone has an idea on where this juvenile breeding ground may be on the West Coast.
Any fishermen run into lots of 2-3m whites or have there been lots of sightings in any one area?
Western end of the Bight east of Esperance is one supposed breeding area, will find the reference later, no time now.
So, what has the research on the Pt Stephens juvey's shown?
Surely there must be some preliminary results available.
So when commercial shark fishing was stopped and gws were protected, who was doing the research into numbers to have it inacted.
Sounds fishy to me ;)!!
That is one of the best news feeds I have seen in reference to this whole debate. It is the only thing that everyone agree with (that we desperately need a better understanding of GWS). Well done.
the only research results that i have seen for the east coast were published in the Newcastle Herald (one of the worst publications in Australia) which focuses more on distribution and range rather than population size.
http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2027804/great-white-shark-nursery-off-...
Kent here from Whitetag ..Im happy to provide details of the east coast research in a follow up article if people are interested..
Long and short of it,we've been working off the east coast of Wilsons Prom recently,up and along the 90 Mile…This is where their point of origin is and where the juvys spend their first year..Its an area where mum,dad and the kids reside …Tracks of tagged animals show a cycling period between the this area in Vic and Port Stephens beaches,in particular Hawsknest and Stockton areas over nearly a 5-6 yr period…What is interesting is these tagged juvys don't appear to go any further west into Bass Strait…Something is going on Vic waters however,as we are always updated on large adult whites in far western vic..No juveniles,just large adults..
Different population?
Would love to see some details of the east coast research.
Dunno freeride I think I prefer blissful ignorance. I'm very happy for someone to know, just not me.
Completely separate population…Thought is the land bridge that once linked Tas to the mainland created the barrier and it defined their home range east of the Prom..Not unusual ..Snapper the same..
Steve, some CSIRO tagging data from Port Stephens is here.
It is a PDF download - source is a CSIRO report to the Hunter CMA.
http://goo.gl/DitE3d
Make of this what you may..
When I came across that stretch of coastline south from Yagen to Hawks Next and especially near Little Gibber with the Broughton Islands offshore, it was the only time I thought, gee, this looks a lot like some of the South Australian coastline.
Big untouched sandunes, islands sitting offshore, and a real feeling of remoteness.
Just a coincidence most likely.
'Something is going on Vic waters however,as we are always updated on large adult whites in far western vic..No juveniles,just large adults..'
Yeh, seen a few subs down that way.
So are there really nurseries for juvenile whites?or is it some beaches offer a better food source.Wasnt it a couple guys fishing from the beach at stockton wondered why they kept getting bitten off and then started using wire as a leader and started getting lots of small whites?I mean theres lots of very remote beaches that dont get fished so whos to say what a nursery is.
Also Kent from white tag any info is worth knowing.So how many juveniles were tagged off stockton for example and do they know how many pups are born and how often or dosent any one know ......fill us in Kent.
This sums it up well
There are known GWS nurseries in the west coast of the North Island of NZ. Kaipara harbour is one I think.
Definitely something happening. There's the obvious ones.
http://www.abc.net.au/oceans/whale/spot.htm
Which includes the snapper. They love them too.
"Normally, they never used to worry about small stuff out there, but even if you have bait half the size of a tennis ball, they're coming back to get it.
"I wouldn't be surprised if they start coming in closer to shore because there isn't an abundance of snapper like there used to be."
Compleat Angler Wallaroo tackle shop owner Brian Wheadon said while sharks were known for stealing snapper from fisherman at Jurassic Park, they seemed to have become tamer in recent years, hanging around the 40-plus boats that frequent the area each day in peak periods.'
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/tax-man-snatches-at-snapper/story-e6f...
And the coupe de gras, courtesy of your friendly, neighbourhood tuna farm, and shark charters
"We're seeing sharks in places we've never seen them before," the 54-year-old said. "When they circle the boat, they roll on their side and eyeball you. It runs shivers down your back.
How come whitetag haven't been more vocal about their findings? Seems they have some pretty decent information! this is the first I've heard in this much detail on either side of the argument.
What kind of numbers are we talking here? IMO I think numbers are up..it used to be bloody rare to hear of pointers but now there seems to be 2 or 3 sightings a month in SA!
'IMO I think numbers are up..it used to be bloody rare to hear of pointers but now there seems to be 2 or 3 sightings a month in SA!'
'A good read. But I also wondered about the apparent lack of commercial fishing of sharks, presumably in oz.'
Hey! Look what I found! Some more answers!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/great-white-shark-sightings-on-the-...
'Bobs' your uncle!
Stu before the ban they used to fish for GWs at Lancelin, where one of the fatal attacks was a couple of years ago.
But I agree with your basic point, that our main source of data is commercial catch/bycatch.
There's at least 6 boats fishing for sharks in the Capes region(where most of the attacks have been) with at least 70 km of net in total. At least 3 of the attacks have been in the immediate area of where some of these boats have cleaned out, within 2 weeks of the boats raping and leaving. They leave a daily trail of by-catch for kilometers as they pull their nets, often parallel to the coast within 1-2 kms of shore. Possibly contributing to the attacks by luring large sharks in close to shore for an easy feed, then moving to another area leaving nothing where they've been working?
I reckon the Stockton strip to Port Stephens just got a lot less crowded!!!
All really good points raised…Ill do my best to answer some of the questions put up…
First up,Im a surfer like the rest of you,so Im speaking with a vested interest in the topic as well..
Simba…You're spot on,the nursery area around Port Stephens takes in Hawksnest and Stockton and it was rec fishers who stumbled across it..Its definitely a nursery area but, not for new borns,the sharks here are the 2-6yr olds approx..Ranging in size from 1.5-2.8m with the odd 3m…We know its a nursery by observing tracks of most of the tagged animals..Eastern Bass Strait is definitely the point of origin for the new borns..They seem to do a seasonal migration to and from eastern Bass Strait to Port Stephens, and they do this over consecutive years,thats how CSIRO have established the significance of the two areas..
Aerial surveys have also been done over a number of years and they too highlighted the aggregation at Hawksnest and Stockton…
We've been working here with CSIRO for the past seven years and noticed the numbers of sharks seen off both beaches over the spring -summer has decreased substantially in the past two or three years..We've also observed increased algal blooms and more extreme weather conditions over the same period..Not sure if either of these factors has had an influence .
In answer to your question about how many sharks tagged, well over 60, a combination of sat tags on dorsal fins identifying movement patterns and pathways and long term acoustic tags surgically implanted in the stomach..These ping off a signal to underwater receivers to determine behaviour such as arrival and departure times at habitat including Hawksnest ,Stockton and eastern Bass Strait..
Adults can give birth to 2-10 pups but, its thought to be lesser than more and every alternate year so a gestation of around 18 months..They arrive a stunted version of mum approx 1.2-1.5m in length,left to fend for themselves with no parental supervision……
Barley…In response to your question and might I say a good one…Fact is, I have been providing some of this info through public institutions such as the Melb Aq over the last three or four years and I'd certainly like to do more with Swellnet in the future.. ..I must say,CSIRO haven't been great at getting research findings to the public or in a palatable format and its not the fault of the scientists Barry Bruce and Russ Bradford might I say..I work alongside these guys, they are time poor and under funded, thats a fact..Plus,white sharks are just one of a number of projects they work on which most people don't realise.Its probably more of a CSIRO corporate communication issue too be honest..
The plan over the next few years is for myself to become a conduit for fresh information and start presenting findings to you guys on a regular basis .Too be honest,wed also appreciate as much feedback from the surfing community as possible..
As for the question of white shark numbers…I communicate with a large group of commercial fishers,ab divers and surfers around the country and the feedback is the same..Personally,I think they probably are increasing and given they've been protected for nearly fifteen years, as well as seal populations and whale populations on the rise,it makes sense white sharks are recovering around the coast…So even more important we get research findings out on a regular basis..
Dave..Your point about by catch raises another issue..By and large commercial fishers haven't been overly enthusiastic in volunteering data on white sharks caught as by catch through fear of prosecution.. this is one area where the recovery plan for the species falls flat…Not sure how we overcome this one too be honest..
What intrigues me is how large the tiger shark population is of Western Australia and how few attacks there seems to be compared to other parts of the world by tigers.
I have had a couple of chunky numbers eyeball us in the surf only to swim off and haven't ever really been intimated by them in the water.
The reported drum line statistics seem to back up the healthy tiger population.
There seems to be a general misunderstanding about the comment that GSW are not and have not been fished commercially. This is true. Other species of sharks are and have been fished commercially and pointers would form part of that bycatch. They were not targetted and are not a commercial species. In fact they were a pain in the butt for commercial fishers since they would roll and plait up hundreds of meters of mesh, meaning a net not fishing properly. The lack of empirical evidence regarding numbers can in part be attributed to the ban on killing them from the late 1990's. While commercial shark netters would catch them, none would log them as if you did, it would admit you had killed a protected species and AFMA would then look at how to prevent this which would mean curtailing your activities and therefore how you earned a crust. Now that the numbers of commercial shark fishers across the southern and western seaboards have been reduced, the amount of mesh they deploy and the number of days they fish has been reduced, it is without doubt, the number of GWS has increased. The scientists are technically correct when they say "we have no evidence their numbers are increasing", because as the article states, there was no research done and the best source of data (commercial fishers) would not dare record their dealings. But their numbers are increasing, don't fool yourself. This is probably not the whole picture either. For some reason, they are hanging around SW West Aust and eating more people than they were before. Why, who knows and I would doubt anyone could ever really state with certainty. I live in Geraldton in Mid West WA and they are being sighted here more in recent years than they ever have before. I surf and spearfish regularly, I have seen 2 in the water while spearing and while they did not directly threaten me, I will be happier if there are less around. Now if we could just convince the Japs they taste better than whale...
West Australian Fisheries does have records of GWS as by catch for every year. It varies between 8 and 18 per year and shows no sign of an increasing number of Whites being caught. The past 3 years have actually been average or below average in reported catches.
reecen ,
i think WA still has good fish stocks , which is perhaps why the Tigers are happy ( for now ) to not bother West Aussies ... If however you find yourself in the middle of a pelagic / large reef fish or reef shark feeding frenzy and maybe just bleeding whilst in the water then perhaps worry ... heaps of regular NW visitors and locals talk of " tigers " just going about their business up there .
Kent ,
Does water temps effect the extent of GW's migration . ie seal rocks is about the furthest south really warm EC Aust currents run down to ... Notable is that 90 mile beach is often cooler than Tasmanian east coast waters nth of Hobart .
So west of the ( Bass strait bridge ) , does that make Portland to Port Mac the SW version , and perhaps somewhere near Albany in WA . ( Note the Leeuwin current sees higher fluctuations in water temps the further east in SWA you go ) , so establishing the Far West Population nursery ( thats done most of the damage ) be harder to pinpoint , lack of large regular water runoff in WA being the other ???
Southey I haven't ever subscribed to the healthy fish population theory but your comment to Kent about regular water runoff I reckon could be part of why they don't bite people in WA much?
Water is so clear they dont need a taste test so much because they can see us better? The whites on the other hand seem to want to eat us ?
It's interesting that most articles (including this one) cite the "7 deaths in 4 years" as the trigger but really those living in WA know that this issue has been around for longer than that. Before 1995 the state had only had 7 deaths in over 100 years, the last of which was 1967. Shark attacks were virtually unheard of. In the 20 years since 1995 there have been 13 deaths and a lot more attacks. Clearly that's a stark increase and it doesn't match the population increase. I agree with those who say something had to be done, and now it's just a matter of monitoring and adjusting the program as more research comes to light. The juvenile research sounds promising.
Source: http://www.washarkattacks.net/shark-attacks.php
Been at work lately :(
60kms off Exmouth.. On board the Nganhurra they had a diving campaign going, which was inspection of the hull, rudder, inlets and outlets, etc.
This was a great time to ask professional divers about the shark population and culling systems which is happening at the mo.
Their response was "cull them", in the the last 10 years or so, shark numbers have quadrupled even more than x4...? These guys work for a living under the water and have respect for these creatures.
Thanks for the input Whiteshark.
I remember seeing a photo Ben linked somewhere with the protesters at Cottosloe Beach, 6000+...?
There was not one person protesting in the water.........?
This would of got them swimming for sure.
Southey, warm water eddies from the EAC go a lot further than Seal Rocks mate. Take a look at the current SST and anomaly charts for proof.
Freeride ,
I'm well aware of the EAC's tendency's . ( i do spend an un-natural amount of time looking at Climate forcing / reacting SST's ) ....
My point was that was where from north upwards , that there was less inshore mixing and more of a steady stream of higher temps ..... ( ie the cooler southern waters barely mix up past there ) .... other sources of cooler water north of there are runoff from excessive rain events , esp . the the far northen rivers , and upwelling being the other source .... We are not talking of cooler currents as such north of there ... And not sustained ...
Thanks Kent , for taking the time ....
What has me worried " long term " and hence my interest in this topic ...
Is that once this influx of juvenile to mid age Whites get to the " Vicco " stage .... BIG units that are territorial to the seal colonies , that we may see more competion in these areas , for the seals/ whales ??? ( more rare target for the area ) , that all these Tuna net / cage dived / crayboat trained young buks will be far more " adventurous " in selecting the Human entree ' more often ...
Thanx for replying whiteshark. very useful information...dunno if you watched 60mins the other night..it seems the extreme greenies always get their voice out but never the fisherman/divers who conduct their business out there....would be good for you to get into the mainstream media..just so we actually get told some of the facts and not the hyped up bullshit...and you seem to have a lot of information that I certainly never knew/ have heard about! Me personally, I am for a 'population control' program..seems to be it is the biggest of the specie that do the damage not the juvy's? though...If you've tagged 60, are any of those 60 been located in the same area at the same time of attacks?
BREAKING NEWS.
Australia’s sharks are planning to begin culling humans off the Western Australian coast.
The cull, slated to occur in areas where human attacks on sharks have been the most frequent, is aimed at protecting sharks in some of their favourite habitats.
Sharks say the cull is in response to an increase in the number of human attacks in recent days. In the most recent attack a shark was caught on a bait line and then shot in the head four times by a pack of humans.
“Too many sharks have been killed enjoying the beautiful coastline we have here in W.A” said high profile shark Bruce.
“We believe sharks should be able swim here without fear of being brutally attacked,” Bruce said.
Humans over 1.5 metres who enter designated ‘kill zones’ along the Western Australian coast will be targeted by professional great white sharks in a trial to begin in the next few days.
Human scientists have predicted that 73 million sharks are killed each year in violent human attacks. Sharks are then used in soup or deep fried in batter; a fact which has caused outrage in the close knit shark community.
“I don’t want my 17 kids growing up to be part of a $15 fisherman’s basket special” spokes shark Bruce said.
In related news, shark nutritionists have reclassified humans as a junk food due to an increase in their average fat content. Humans have been moved to the top of the healthy eating pyramid and it is now advised that sharks eat humans ‘in small amounts’ only.
Luv ya work, ACB :). Thanks for starting my day off with a good laugh. Long live "Bruce" :)
Hahaha! Classic.
barley, that was such a crap piece of journalism on 60 mins. I happened onto it and was disappointed to see they went with generating conflict in the story rather than some nuanced information. The extreme greenies get their message out cos the media loves a fight more than something measured. Good thinh we've got outlets like swellnet to discuss things meaningfully!
Thanks for the questions and comments guys…Again all great..
First up I just want to point out,I and my organisation don't align with any of the green or conservation groups,like yourselves,Im a surfer whose only interested in hearing the facts and the only way we are going to hear them is by getting involved and backing the scientists both physically and financially…All the ranting and raving going on out there,plus the medias desire to throw fuel on the fire,60 Minutes especially is detracting from the research going on.
Freeride..Mate this is a great question…There may be some merit in the runoff catchment theory and the presence of juvys..The EAC converges with a colder current not far off Port Stephens and creates an upwelling of nutrient enriched water..We observe the tagged juvys doing regular cycles between the beaches and the shelf and suspect this is where they are doing most of their feeding,not so much inner shore..Reason I say that,aerial surveys have shown large schools of bait fish,salmon and mullet close to shore with whites swimming often nearby…We have in all the years of doing this research never seen a white preying on these schools..
So we think they might well be using the beaches as a zone to replenish their energy levels.
Most of the sharks we've caught and observed have been in tight to the beach goofing off in the shallows almost sun baking..
Did I mention there has never been an attack on either Hawsknest or Stockton.?
Yet there has been two inside the Port Stephens estuary where the water clarity is terrible..Perhaps their hunting technique is modified to suit the water clarity.?
Re the western zone…At this point we really consider the area from western Vic right through SA as the western zone..Again heres another case in point about the importance of currents..
The Bonney upwellings off Portland is another nutrient enrichment zone just off the shelf..This region has a migration and accumulation of all types of marine life,large whites included…You're theory about runoff and juvys might have some merit because there is no major catchment filtering into this region unlike Port Stephens and Corner Inlet east of Wilsons Prom…The whites off Portland, Port Fairy are all adults and big adults at that…
So this has us looking toward the Murray mouth for another possible juvenile nursery ..Possibly a central nursery..
However,that said,the WA juvy population is a tricky one,we think this may be more current and upwelling related not so much catchment ..
I can't clarify or absolutely confirm the nursery area for the WA juvys but we think we have a pretty good idea..
Barley…Again you bring up a really good point mate and its one we've subscribed too in the east coast work…Sourcing feedback from the eyes and ears on the water,namely the commercial and rec fishers,ab divers and too a lesser degree the surfers…We have great relationships with these various networks and are putting together a similar network in WA..So for any of you commercial fishers out there please feel free to contact me..
We also like to make a point of chartering local fishers ,in Vic we use the ab industry..
Which leads me on to WA…The feedback Ive had from the older generational commercial fishers and ab divers as well as some of the Margarets surfers is this, what they are experiencing along the SW coast has only been in the last five or six years,prior to that it was rare to even sight a white shark along this strip…These guys are all saying something has changed in the environment to be attracting these sharks.
This is spot on and of course as you know there are plenty of theories being tossed up and too be honest most with validity…Whale and seal populations increasing/migrating,krill harvesting in the southern ocean,quota buyback,crayfishing closer to shore and off course more people using the water witnessing it..
What is going on here is almost a mirror image of SA back in the early 2000s when there was a sequence of shark attacks along the coast..
There is definitely a shift in the environment and it has these sharks moving in response to it..It doesn't necessarily mean there is an explosion in the population of whites but,(its probable their numbers have increased since protection)it has them distributed through this area for a reason and just because they are there today doesn't necessarily mean they'll be there tomorrow…
Again,getting back to you Freeride,it does seem as though the current is having a bearing on things ,the Leeuwin is definitely closer to the coast..
Open too feedback guys please fire away..
Thanx whiteshark..I've learnt more in the last 2mins than I have since this whole thing erupted!!So do you have any info on the big guys?tracking etc.would you say they are more prone to attack than the juvey"S or just have different size eating requirements?.we had an attack in SA lately and this spot has a deep water trench that the cops use for diving about 200m offshore..its a long stretch of VERY cold water..like fuckn freezing water..always see birds diving etc..always shark stories too this time a year!!not sure if your familiar
Was told by an old ab diver, that he thought American river on KI was a nursery for pointers.
Has this area been looked into as a possible site in SA?
Mothart, have heard similar- American river direct line to cape jervis then a line to the pages back to American river, a large triangle shape nursery.
Yeah, well how many large pointer rocked up for that floating dead whale around Jervis in 200(?) ?... Was there an official count for that event?
Thanks guys,exactly the feedback and involvement we want from ocean users..
Interesting one re American River,haven't heard the theory I'll run it past Barry and Russ..
Re your question Barley…On the east coast of Aus,the majority of attacks on surfers,swimmers have come from juvenile whites and by juvenile I mean anything from 1.5-2.8m…As I mentioned previously,there has never been an attack in the nursery areas around Port Stephens,only inside the estuary..
So it makes sense the attacks along the coast are from opportunistic animals,travelling..
Re the adults,probably the same..
The ab diver we charter with out of the Prom has dived most of SA waters,if you'd seen him,you'd understand he'd frighten the living daylights out of any shark..
He was telling me he'd worked that area south of Edithburgh and it wasn't that productive..Flat bottom,no reef and saw no whites during his time there..So the thought would be a large white travelling through is likely to be more opportunistic as witnessed with the latest attack..
Victoria is unusual…We hear of interactions with large whites fairly consistently by ab divers but, the standard response is they don't appear to be interested in the diver..
Generally speaking these are near seal colonies so possibly the sharks are sufficiently well fed and when near regular food source they are less motivated..
In SA I know its a different story,the interactions with abdivers and commercial fishers seems to be with more aggressive revved up animals away from seal colonies..
Kent, I remember being able to look at a map of tagged shark movements, CSIRO or something. I cant seem to find it now have you any idea of the link for it?
The main guys that used to anchor at blacks, surf, then fish, then ditto on the way home wouldn't dream of doing that now. They started noticing that their boats were being followed regularly. Tuna farming has had a huge effect on the behaviour of pointers. The continually fed, so burlied cages are towed along the whole coastline, and moored for months. In the early days the workers openly spoke about the number of pointers attracted, how inquisitive they became, how interested in any boat, noise, etc. Workers were being eyeballed more and more, boats followed etc. Now, its the cone of silence stuff. No problemo. Yet even a way down the chain goldfish figures out what noises, shapes, movements mean food time and responds accordingly. Pointers are being literally trained to be more interested in us, and anything to do with us. Or maybe they are less on the ball than the goldfish or guppies. Survival dumbos.
Possibly the shark cage diving experience in S.A is having some effect. Great Whites are attracted to boats by people berlying up the waters. They come in for a close up, where they find no food to satisfy their hunger, but a cage hanging from the boat with living breathing people inside. Often these boats also tease the sharks with body-board size pieces of foam, pulling them away from the jaws at the last moment.
Some of these sharks have been tagged over the years, and are known to migrate west along the coast, past the SW capes region.
Perhaps the cage experience has led them to associate humans in the water with food?
Another factor could be that for the past 4 years the Leeuwin current that flows right down the coast of WA has been much stronger than usual, causing the cool Southern Ocean current that flows North to be pressed up against the coast. If GWS prefer to follow this cool current, they too are concentrated closer to shore?
Kent for the last 5 years there has been a 15-17ft GWS turning up in Edithburgh and coobowie bay. It is usually around this time of year. At times it has been aggressive towards boats and has had a go at a diver at the end of the jetty. two days a go a large white swam alongside the jetty and than headed towards the swimming pool. Pro fisherman say they have never seen as many salmon in the bay and around troubridge point as this year. there is also an increase in seals hanging around giles jetty and troubridge.
Yeah uplift ,spot on,cage diving is bad news for surfers and divers cause as you said we are training them to come closer, dont be afraid and well give you a reward as in tuna .Fuck who thought up this scenario,was it Rodney shark attack Fox?And i wonder if this knowledge that a GW accumulates is passed on.I know from passed experience pro fishing that what lure works one year dosent the next cause fish do learn and im sure Gw s are certainly smarter than given credit for.Byron Bay being the most easterly point and close to the shelf and pulls in a lot of current gets more than its fair share of Gws.I know of a guy who was bitten on the leg back in the late seventies at the Pass and one of the local divers ran a net out from spectators rock that night and caught 2 ten ft whites.Anyway been plenty of stories around there over the years with one confirmed attack at the Julian Rocks,and in a lot of years diving was only place i have seen a Gw,but that was a while ago and it was uncommon to see or hear of anyone seeing one then but now its very common.
a few difficult questions to answer so im not expecting straightforward answers: why havent any GWSs been caught on the drumlines? are they still swimming around in that area? [?] how many of the recent attacks were100% attributed to GWSs?
Ben ... I hate this part of the Threads / article comments ... would be good for flow of replying if quotes were located when they were made .... ? !
Like this .
" southey commented Friday, 21 Feb 2014 at 5:23pm new
freeride76 wrote:Southey, warm water eddies from the EAC go a lot further than Seal Rocks mate. Take a look at the current SST and anomaly charts for proof.
Freeride ,
I'm well aware of the EAC's tendency's . ( i do spend an un-natural amount of time looking at Climate forcing / reacting SST's ) ....
My point was that was where from north upwards , that there was less inshore mixing and more of a steady stream of higher temps ..... ( ie the cooler southern waters barely mix up past there ) .... other sources of cooler water north of there are runoff from excessive rain events , esp . the the far northen rivers , and upwelling being the other source .... We are not talking of cooler currents as such north of there ... And not sustained ...
Thanks Kent , for taking the time ....
What has me worried " long term " and hence my interest in this topic ...
Is that once this influx of juvenile to mid age Whites get to the " Vicco " stage .... BIG units that are territorial to the seal colonies , that we may see more competion in these areas , for the seals/ whales ??? ( more rare target for the area ) , that all these Tuna net / cage dived / crayboat trained young buks will be far more " adventurous " in selecting the Human entree ' more often ...
beyond the shadows
Thanks again to everyone for getting involved,this has pretty much cemented in my mind the need for a bridge between science and the community…I can see from most of the comments there is a real connectivity between our lifestyle as ocean users and informative science…and Id be fairly confident in guessing that you guys would like to be regularly connected to the research whether it be online debating such as Swellnet or public lecture series/forums around the states.?
Just reading through the last series of posts,there is certainly some recurring comments…Sharks learning behaviour,the impact of the cage diving industry,the tuna industry,these come up repeatedly and I get back to the original comment about cues influencing sharks behaviour…These can all be considered cues that can alter a sharks regular swimming pattern…For anyone interested, Russ Bradford and Barry Bruce co authored a publication on the effects of berlying around cage diving operations..Its well worth a read and again,fact based evidence…Not a rant..
As for the tuna industry,well now there is a can of worms…Good luck getting a straight answer from them…
Certainly when the processing boat has been operating in Boston Bay over recent years,white sharks were present and accounted for..This would have been the perfect opportunity to get some serious tagging done on large adults but,the industry hasn't allowed unauthorised vessels within a sniff of the processing vessel..
Salt,you asked me about tracks that were posted online by CSIRO,yes,this was done a few years back,again,I'll ask Russ or Barry the chances of getting that up and running again..It definitely attracted plenty of interest and was a great vehicle to bring science to the community for sure..
Blacksmith…You know, every coastal town reports a resident shark at certain times of the year and I don't disregard this comment because these animals certainly develop blueprints for areas that have been kind to them…Case in point,one particular shark tagged at the Neptunes turned up virtually to the day each year for three years running and for the same period of time,early Aug-early Nov..Then completely disappeared for the rest of the year…Mind you it didn't sit permanently at the seal colony but used the area around the Neptunes over that time..Weve seen the same here with whites in Vic off Portland,Cape Bridgewater and Seal Rocks..
Sunshine…From the feedback we've been given via the local commercial fishers the overall consensus is the white sharks have left the SW area..As far as I know,there hasn't been one caught too date and all the attacks have been attributed to whites…
The poor tiger shark is copping the rough end of the deal thats for sure…
Ok,Ill deviate slightly from the norm here,as many of you know I was involved with the Wayne Lynch film Uncharted Waters, Wayne being an old friend and also involved with the white shark research..
I have been curious to know why the surf industry and various surfing bodies have been so absent from the entire shark issue…Wayne just shakes his head at me and says Im flogging a dead horse,or am I.?
As much as I attempt to present the research to the public,I have also tried to engage the surf companies and peak bodies in the issue but,no interest,let alone success..
I believe we need a peak body from the ocean user community alongside scientists not just overseeing the shark debate but, perhaps a funding mechanism to help better research the topic and educate ocean users…In fact,I almost believe its now an obligation for some of these bodies to get involved..Be interested in your thoughts guys,or am I beginning to rant.??
I wonder if mentioning sharks may be seen as "non productive" in attracting new customers to the surf industry market? Pretty dumb if true. It would surely show their public concern and I'm sure existing surfers would be interest. A golden opportunity in this current situation where shark deaths and culling are in mainstream media.
Quiksilver is now centered "USA" as far as media is concerned, Australia now under US reporting our current affairs. Just an update so not to bother trying them or if you have why no action I'm guessing, anyway Wayne may well be right as he's been there but this is certainly the best time to push the surf industry as it is currently topical.
Good to too see the greenies are still being scabby bastards and profiting by brainwashing the average joe who thinks they are doing the righty
from Ross Weir on facebook asking for money so he can continue to be unemployed for another 20 years ......
I would suggest using him as bait on the drumline but the sharks don't really do chai latte, gluten free or vegan.
"I must call on my supporters for some help today. I have an urgent meting I must attend this afternoon and am stuck for a few days with no funds at all and when i say no funds at all that means I have also used up what little personal funds I do have each fortnight. I can not legally ask you to donate to WASC directly at this point in time as we are incorporating. Until March 12 I am forced to request donors donate to my personal account.
I am also required by the department of commerce to inform you this is a cash donation to Ross Weir as an individual activist, though of course all funds go towards enabling me to keep doing what I do, run WASC and work for the sharks and our oceans.
All receipts will be provided to your email address should you choose to donate.
The WASC team are really looking forward to holding our gig and talk nights, educational courses and diving with the sharks tours and research in the near future.
We are blessed with awesome crew and a great board (finally).
If you can help me today please deposit funds at a Bankwest branch.
Ross N Weir- BSB 306 042, Acc 1118985
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your ongoing support as without it I would not be able to continue."
Hey Southey…You've touched on a good point and there is something in what you've written that has me a little edgy as well…The little guys developing into bigger units..
First up,the science has shown white sharks aren't territorial,or at least dont permanently reside at seal colonies..They treat them like a drive through at maccas..
So I don't see the competition thing being an issue…Its more the travelling mode when they are migrating from point A to point B..Anecdotally,its been during the travelling mode that incidents occur..ie when the sharks are likely to be more opportunistic..
Ive now witnessed and tagged many juveniles,it will be interesting to see the survival rate too adulthood..ie Big units…
Especially the eastern seaboard population of juvys..
Kent you about ?!? Stu any chance of getting Kent on the blower and getting him to post his thoughts on the latest N NSW sightings / attacks . Thanks again udo !!!
He's onto it Southey. Would've come sooner but he's been a busy fella of late.
Watching abalone wars recently and one of the ab divers decided to work around the other side of of the { neptune?} island as they could see the cage diving boat thru a dip in the land,his theory was the sharks would be attracted over to it .Sure enough as soon as the cage boat went he had two whites swimming around his boat.Lucky for him he had just gotten out of the water and back in his boat,coincidence or learning?
Kent so any idea what the growth rate is and life expectancy of a gw is?Its good to have someone whos at the cutting edge of gw research on this forum.
This sounds crazy, but reading your last comment Kent, am I safer surfing around sea lion colonies? Have done this before, but it was the most unsafe I have felt in my life.
Short answer is no... at Gracetown's South Point in 2011 my mate's girlfriend was out and a pack of seals came tearing around the point. Seconds later, a bloke had his leg ripped off. If you're around seals you'll probably be picked out as a slow/weak one.
If whitetag have tagged as many as they say..how come they cannot identify if that shark was involved in an attack..or wasn't involved therefore another white shark located? and if none of these whites are tagged is it fair to say there are more numbers of them than previously thought..Interesting to here they have moved from the SW....where have they gone?maybe SA? could they be moving from one breeding area to the vic nursery? east-west then back? maybe that shark at Neptune got a bad dose of lead poisoning? not completely unheard of in South OZ!!
By the way, that shark photo to this article on the home screen, is one of the best/scariest photos of a pointer I have seen... It like she is smiling at me. Think I have been staring at it too long.
hey its not just you mothart.....I think that shark has a smile on its face...maybe for the camera....or is it just starting to think......yummm for the cameraman?
Hopefully the shark monitoring systems, both acoustic and sat are developet into a live feed, google map style of app, to go with the surf life saving twitter updates.
That way you will be able to see where individuals are swimming and who those individuals are, ie species, size and track history.
That way the more they tag the better the understanding becomes by everyone using the water, as every person will then be able to see patterns and times, if they exist, in their local use area.
Here's my two 'Bobs', or 'Dinko's' worth.
The tuna industry has been around the block for a long time. Way before they pioneered it here in Australia. They have 'studied' pointers longer than anyone, they know heaps about them. And know their 'business'. Proven survivors, tough nuts. Firing squad, shmiring squad. If it suits their business, the 'can of worms' will open. If not,
'Eh I'm just a simple, poor fisherman, whadoIknow... can you play bocce?'
Then, there's the dolphins. Pointers love dolphins. More than we do.
Here's a nice summary. Try to hang in for part 5. The 'where to from here' bit.
Very interesting viewing uplift and sort of very depressing at the same time,boy does mankind know how to fuck things up.How to change the balance in the eco system over a very short period of time and the changes it brings with it resonate all down the line .
Whiteshark just a thought based on your notion of engaging with the surf community or similar interested bodies and taking into account Uncle Leroy's rave. Its possibly worth trying to engage the 'greenies' somehow, as mentioned that side of the debate can be so emotive and senseless but it sucks people in. Perhaps by engaging, I dunno, Greenpeace or Surfrider Foundation you can get some reason back into the debate and get some decent information out there. Certainly Greenpeace get a fair slab of money off the Aus public for their anti whaling coup. I was also thinking companies like Sharkshield may have an interest, it certainly couldnt harm them to have some more scientific knowledge of the GWS on the side.
Its all quite simple, since the protection of GW's and bans on commercial fishing on both sides of the country, all our rivers lakes etc are becoming the breeding grounds that they once where. Before white man came these inlets were simply fish feeders, like big fish funnels. There is or was no food in them as we raped these resources, there is now food in them and the big fish come back...simple. We learnt to surf in a safe zone the 60's thru to 90's but now green policy has changed that.
So get used to the backyard pool boys and girls, we are just seeing the start of the return of the shark. Woohoo...the shark has already been saved and the .orgs globally have tricked their way into billions. RIP Chris Boyd, Brad Smith, Ben Linden, Zac Young and many more that have been lost to the dumb shark for no good reason. Oh no...I trod on an ant...protest time!!
Whiteshark,what a motherlode of info......its amazing that that as Wayne says no interest from the Surf Industry,but mostly the shark attacks by GWS are in the smallest surf population areas....and not really any commercial markets for them,sad but true!
Interesting that having surfed the Portland > 12 apostles area for the first 30 years of my surf life....only ever saw BIG GWS...especially Port fairy and Whites/Discovery bay...and a couple with wayne around the Johanna area....
Just been in the USA and surfing the Hollister ranch and met a guys who said he had an App that followed tagged great whites....he reckon there had been 2 big ones as he entered the ranch that morning.......wasn't sure if he was talking it up or was for real??
any knowledge on around the Santa Barbera area??
I watched a doco years ago about a great white that was tagged in South Africa.....and cruised the following route...
South Africa > Maldives > about 500K south of Indo to up near Xmouth > down the coast of WA > around Cape Leewin> across the Bight around Cape Otway> thru Bass straight > up the east coast to the bottom of the Great barrier reef > did a U turn and then returned back down the East Coast went thru Bass straight again and then lost the tag..........blew me out....//was I dreaming????
On another side note there have been so many shark sightings here in the Bells area over the last couple of years...a guy was bitten by a small white at Winki...and Thresher/7 gill sharks have been sighted constantly here .......wasn't like that in the old days.....never saw one here in 30 years only on the west coast.....
so is it just GWS's or are more othere variety of sharks being seen also??
That's amazing Brutus, they really cover some ground! Imagine how many people that shark came within a few meters of and they probably never knew..
Around Johanna area always gives me the creeps, pretty deep dark water.
On the MP the only place that gets me thinking of them while surfing is Cape Schank. Lots of seals always darting around scaring the pants off you.
It's when spear fishing that I tend to think about them a lot more.. I guess surfing you probably wouldn't see it coming, but spearing, good chance you might, which would be hell of a lot more terrifying
Yeh simba, its a spin off of the western, seperatist belief to easily lose sight of the big picture. The results unfortunately reflect it. Bit like the net, seems to connect everyone, except while eveyone is busy ignoring the people next to them, focused on the screen waiting for it to tell them if it will rain, or when the swell will come, they haven't noticed the ants swarming up their legs, or the birds circling. But then, maybe that's also because there are none left to notice.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/reef-audit-finds-big-fish...
I live and surf in the Stockton to Pacific Palms area. Only seen a few sharks every now and then, a few mates have been chased out or volunteered to go to shore. I went to a talk on sharks a couple years ago cant remember who the speaker was but going off what I remember him saying was shark population (juveniles) were healthy. Some of the tracked sharks migrate or travel to south oz and feed on seals, some went north. One shark apparently left Stockton stayed around 20-30 fathoms and went to an area between New Zealand, fed and came back. How the shark new where to go and when is quit amazing. Any way that's my two cents worth.
This is great, really beginning to bring some true ocean people to the table..Again please pull me up if Im beginning to bore you..
Brutus,I know exactly who you are and you are a wealth of knowledge Id like to tap into both on a Vic level but, your time spent in SW WA…You've also been instrumental in the protection of the Bells environment so hats off to you mate..Ive heard surfers are seeing more sharks than ever before in the area,in fact,this year we've had more reports of Orcas and whales being sighted in close along the entire southern coast….
Getting back to the GWS issue,you probably know a couple of the older commercial fishers Im referring to in SW WA who mentioned they had rarely if ever seen a GWS travelling along the SW coast prior to 5 or six years ago..Both surfers.
They both agree something has changed in that local environment and the entire ecosystem seems out of whack..
These are old school generational fishers,not to be ignored..
To answer some of the questions about tagged sharks,we've only been working on the juveniles along the east coast to southern vic over the last seven years but, prior to that it was mainly the adults in SA around the Neptunes and Dangerous Reef up in the Gulf..
We did a couple of years ago tag three near Liguanea island along the 'shark highway' not far from where Peter Clarkson disappeared..
What we've found in all the studies in SA waters,these animals are most definitely a western population of the species…99% of the sharks tagged migrated west through the Bight and up and along the WA coast,returning to SA waters..From memory,only two have ever crossed in to Vic and then up and along the eastern seaboard..So Brutus,you are right on the money..
These two were tagged at the Neptunes ,travelled through Vic,calling into every seal colony in Bass Strait on their way north to around the Swains reef area of Qld,I suspect buiding up their energy reserves for the trip.
The Swains coincidentally, is where a number of tagged sharks have travelled from NZ..So there is a definite transfer of populations across the oceans but, never the hemispheres..
Jody Perry once told me this area of The Swains was where he experienced big sharks when fishing..
Funnily enough if a line were drawn directly through Australia,it would come out very near to the location the 2 tagged sharks from South Africa appeared off the WA coast a few years back.
What was interesting about the two we tagged (which were around the 4m mark),they retraced their steps back along the coast,again calling past the seal colonies in Vic and arrived at the Neptunes virtually to the week they left the previous year…
We can't even achieve that on land with a Navman.!
I think someone mentioned is it safer to surf or dive near seal colonies…In a word…No,I wouldn't recommend it..
White sharks are stealth hunters who feed by day and by sight,anything at the surface,or mid water is fair game and while we see a vast number of sharks behaving quietly at seal colonies,we have seen unhappy cranky shark behaving very very badly and this is the one you don't want to be near trust me..
The Neptunes have basically been our index for recording white shark residency and over the years the numbers of sharks up in the Gulfs of SA has directly related to the index out at the Neptunes..
We'd like to do something completely different over the next few years,possibly tag away from the Neptunes at other locations that haven't had as much human /shark interaction to determine their behaviour and residency times..
Barley,I think you asked me about tagged sharks out west,we haven't done any ourselves but,the WA guys have done some tagging over the last few years,in particular a couple of opportunistic tags down near Cheyne beach ,I'm fairly sure you can get details of these.
The plan is to do some work out there in collaboration with Rory in the coming years..
As for the app,yes,I know about this,Ocearch have done it in the US…
What you need to understand here is the tracking is not real time but, delayed and the sharks aren't in the exact spot,its determined by a triangulation of locations when the shark surfaces and is an approximation…
Which gets me on to Ocearch…These guys have caused no end of grief to all our scientists,completely wasted their time…I don't want to get into a slanging match here but, basically,they are a glorified film production company who enlist scientists to support their activities then travel the globe talking up their achievements…Which has been touchy amongst the international scientific community to say the least..
Long and short of it,we don't need them here in Australia simply because they don't offer anything new that hasn't/isnt being done already ,plus dragging large adult sharks onto a rigid surface,clambering all over them, fastening sat tags with blow torches,then high giving each other is not a great outcome, animal ethics here have shut the lid firmly on their proposal… These critters are designed to travel in a water column and any pregnant female shark caught by this method is likely to be harmed and traumatised..
I know this is indirectly answering a question so apologies,the app idea has come up and personally I quite like the concept..
I think the idea of deploying a number of monitoring receivers such as those off the Perth beaches down south picking up tagged animals, reporting immediately to authorities along with an informative app,signage system at beaches has merit..
Obviously this would link in with a long term tagging program…
Any ideas from you guys out there on the water is always welcome…
I can confirm the Swains for GW's as I have personally seen two really large ones on seperate occasions and other commercial fishers recalling many sightings on what we call the "whale hwy". A channel between two certain reefs that, during the whale migration, I have had the whales overtake me whilst travelling as they speed north up the coast.
Back in the late '90's I witnessed a GW feeding on a whale carcass in the Coral Sea off Cooktown. There were monster Tigers feeding on it and every so often they would scatter and in came the GW for a munch. As soon as he/she dissapeared, the Tigers would come back.
Port Stephens/Seal Rocks area was always good for gamefisherman in Feb to April, particularly on the shelf. The quality of marine life in that area was always phenominal, from baitfish through to tuna, marlin and sharks. One instance that comes to mind is a medium sized bronzy that was hooked up suddenly took off, when they finally got it back to the boat, the bronzy was firmly stuck down the throat of a giant GW.
The web. Got the tanglin' bit sussed. Its the untanglin' thats the dark zone.
http://www.marinecsi.org/
http://www.watoday.com.au/environment/the-ocearch-shark-research-wa-miss...
Oh, the tanglin'. Science wars.
Who makes all this research stuff anyway. Dupont? BHP? Acme Satellites? China?
http://www.smh.com.au/world/pollutionwracked-china-gets-creative-with-so...
'Who makes all this research stuff anyway. Dupont? BHP? Acme Satellites? China?'
http://www.smh.com.au/world/pollutionwracked-china-gets-creative-with-so...
Hey, they reckon its some mob called Sam something? They're gonna stop pollution in the oceans, and save us from sharks! Where have I heard that name?
Oh, the tanglin'.
Hey Kent, do you know how it is looking in SA at the moment for shark numbers? You said the pointers had left SW WA, do you think they are heading to SA or the other direction, NW WA or south africa?
You said about the neptunes and the gulfs, what about up the west coast, have you studied or have much info for this coast?... Do you surf on the EP while over here?
Kent ,
Thanks for setting us straight with the residency topic ...
I was just going off what old school San Remo Fisho's had once told me about Seal rocks colony and surrounds , they were of the opinion that when a Really large unit was in the area that other smaller / more aggressive GW's or mako's and whatever wouldn't go near the place ....
But going on your expertise , perhaps that was just a conga line of 5M + sharks that rotated through the area ???
Going on that travelling nature , do you think that the cranky ones are ones that have just arrived , are tired from long journey and desperate to try anything including " non typical prey incl.. humans , dogs and floating farm animals washed out in floods ?? Or do you think that a shark arrives to have a bigger shark " at the drive thru " so to speak ", they hang away from usual area and start targeting non typical prey as they get desperate after not getting their quick fix / get " cranky " ??
Or are you more of the opinion that they are trying to load up Before travelling through open ocean or longer distances between seal colonies ... ?
PS . Uplift , those vids you showed of the Mediterranean , reminded me of a convo i had with a Tuna fisherman i had in bar whilst at P-Pass ... We were both hammered so i think he let down his guard , or i didn't come across as a typical " greenie " surfy but maybe more of a rough / loose fisho .
Anyway we were talking about Tuna and i spoke of Vic / SA more so the bight and Lincoln ... And he was saying that he'd worked there and basicly that most of the Fisho's that targeted Tuna pretty much came from ( originally ) from the same village in The mediterranean .... It was only afterwards when speaking to the local Aust . fisheries officer advising the Micronesian govt. ( trying to get them to piss the fisho's off ) that he said they were raping the remote pacific of Tuna ... buying the locals native fisheries , one area at a time and completely fishing it out of Tuna .... and you can all guess where the " market " was so hungry for this resource ... huge boats with MASSIVE storage transporting mother ships .... This is what is pushing the sharks away form their typical meals and locations .... Tigers are probably moving into newer ( further from the eqautor ) , anyway digressed but its all relevant .. More sharks , less pelagic prey , but more inshore prey ( seals and coat hugging whales ) ... locally Snapper numbers have made a resurgance ( until greedy rec. fisho's smash them ) but they returned in large numbers to central vic. bays due to scallops licences being brought up ... MAN fucking the balance whilst trying to do the right thing ??? sound familiar ?
Yeh, they nearly all came from that area southey, and from personal experience, their heavy duty experiences affect their whole outlook on life dramatically. Survival, enough can never be enough, and protection of their family and relatives at any cost.
When they had a go at the pacific, they got truly smashed, it was nearly the end of all of them. Despite how successful and powerfull they are fishing wise in Aus, over there they became a small fish in a massive pond. The scale was mind boggling to even them. The costs of trying to compete, and the tactics employed against them blind sided them all. So they cut their losses, and rebounded back. Roughy. Then farming.
Yeh, the whole balance, the whole story is the thing I reckon. The guys here have plenty of sway, because they really do inject much into our chosen economical system. So imagine the sway that those that truly dwarf them have.
@Southey.dunno 'bout fishing out of tuna..the fuckers are everyhere at the moment....Neptune has come up a lot in this convo,,wonder what would happen if a stop traffic or 'cull' was too occur around that area..no offence whitetag but I have the same question..have any of the sharks you tagged come up in the area an attack has occurred or not?
and also @ whitetag where has all this info been all this time?your a wealth of credible, accurate information, how are you guys not more involved in this whole issue??!!
Barley , i was talking about the Central Nth Pacific ...
The catching ships are up to 60-80 M's long , and the mother ships look like Oil Tankers ...
If i get a chance I'll post photo's of these behemoths ...
From memory Korea owned most of them ? or perhaps it was Korea was the main Target for the catch ... ?
anyway the fisherman out there (2008) were mediteranean & relo's of Lincolns finest or some Philo's / Chinese , the biggest catch ship i saw was captained and owned by Brazilians / Sth Americans ? .
The whole scale of the thing blew me away , and i've spent a bit of time around large ships in ports .
Just couldn't beleive how many boats were way out there in the middle of nowhere ...
The Lincoln guys literally caught nothing. They heard about it, the massive profits, took a punt, borrowed to the eyeballs, interest rates skyrocketed, Bank SA was going down the gurgler, costs, losses were humungous. The Japanese and Russians hammered them. The scale blew them away. Southey is right, the ships were massive floating factories with fleets of high speed purse seiners, helecopters and control over the whole area. They couldn't get any trustworthy info, and when they found fish, were constantly beaten to them. The 'by catch' is huge in that area..
Yeah, it's fcuked how that western Pacific yellowfin/skipjack fishery is being hammered.
Least we got the longtails here.
MOre GWS sightings off Lennox every year. Seem's to be pretty regular with the whale migrations now.
Barley thanks for your questions,I wasn't being elusive,Im trying to keep things national as opposed to honing in on areas but, in response…None of our tagged juvenile sharks have been near the attack areas…On the east coast,all our animals stayed local to either Hawksnest or Stockton before migrating north then south down the coast..As mentioned by someone earlier,we had one that visited NZ,then out to the Chatham Rise east of NZ..Not bad for a 1.7m critter 2yrs of age..
The shark that bit the paraglider off Jimmys beach inside Port Stephens was quite sizeable,3m plus and not one of ours.Nor the one near Newcastle on the surfer a couple of years back..
Im suspicious of the attack on the bodyboarder,that was recorded as a tiger shark after forensic analysis but,jeez,that was unusual for a tiger and had all the trademarks of a white…Again not a tagged animal as it was well over 3m apparently..
As for the Neptunes,yeah,sorry to keep harping on it,unfortunately its been the main index and research site..I mentioned before,we do have plans to work away from here in the not too distant future to see if the same animals visit other locations,there behaviour away from cage diving practices,and basically tag new animals to see if there is a pattern of movement similar to sharks at the Neptunes..
What has been interesting over the years is the shift in the shark population away from Dangerous Reef,animals tagged here years back used this area on seasonal basis but then changed behaviour and fewer tagged animals now appear on the listening stations we have out there ..So there is a prime case of a change in the environment shifting their focus to another area..
As for the number of sharks in SA waters,from what we have been hearing back via the commercial fishers they are definitely interacting with more of them thats for sure..and not specific to an area but,spread along the entire SA coast..
We don't have any tagged in SA at the present,the Fox's have but all acoustic so theta data will only be available once the stations along the coast and inside the gulf are uploaded.. I suggest you contact them for more details,they are generous in volunteering that sort of info…
Same in WA,Fisheries had tagged a number off the south coast,again acoustic so the info needs to retrieved off the stations..
A number did trigger the VR 4 monitoring stations off Perth beaches last year plus this summer and as as you know this system immediately notifies SLSWA and Fisheries who implement a response plan..
You also asked me why I haven't be active during the entire issue..
Couple of reasons,I needed find the most appropriate forum that allowed me to get the 'correct' messages out..Entering mainstream media when there is hype and speculation fuels commercial networks to print shite…and that is exactly what it is…complete and utter shite…In the past they have seduced Barry and CSIRO into issues including commenting on attacks, then hung them out to dry not through fact based evidence but sensationalised fodder…So as you'd expect these guys re now battle weary and wary of the media..
The plan is for myself to now control the messages and info getting out using fact based science and through suitable forums such as Swellnet on a more regular basis.
Too be honest there are way too many armchair experts involved in this entire debate who have no practical research background and are clouding the issue..
Id like to think we can get some clear air to get the right material out ..
Sorry Southey,I forgot your question…Seal Rocks is an interesting area,long history of commercial fishing,ab diving,surfing and most notably old mate Viv Hislop..
There is some merit to what you say and again we have seen it at the Neptunes,smaller more skittish sharks do defer to the motherships for sure and yes,not all the sharks around this area are the size of jumbo jets,there are smaller animals in the mix according to the abdivers....
Rule of thumb,when you see a shark in an area,there is generally more than one..
We're of the opinion these critters use these seal colonies to load up and boost their energy reserves before travelling north, relying on the rich source of energy in seal/whale blubber rather than choosing to hunt down the odd crumb here and there,as I said before,this behaviour is more likely when they are in transit mode and more opportunistic..
We are back out on another juvenile tagging mission off eastern Wilsons Prom tonight and my responses might be a tad sporadic,so apologies..Ill join back in when I get a free moment..Hope its helps shed some light guys…Feel free to pull the plug on me whenever..
If just like to say thankyou Kent! This is easily the best/most informing stuff I've read on swellnet! Thankyou for taking the time! A lot better than listening to hysterics and the crap published in the media! Look forward to reading more!
Secound that bigleft,
Who needs Google when Kent is on here, hands on info from someone in this field.
Cheers :)
Yeah I thought the Tiger attack was a bit fishy. I thought it had the trade mark of a Great white. But then again the favourite food of the tiger is the turtle and what does a body boarder look like from underneath the water. YEAH a turtle. so my guess is it was a Tiger if it was a white you might not seen hardly any body parts left.
Yep Seal rocks and Treachery were the places I was chased out of the water by a big dorsal fin it must have been AT LEAST 2 feet out of the water at Treachery. Grey overcast day just me and my mate out with two locals down the beach. the localS got out of the water screaming at us to get out of the water. to find out of them it was a White. You never seen a guy walk across the water. I felt I did. hahahah! Love Great whites so TUFF. :)
\
weird about that Tiger shark Attack.....in Hawaii,they have had quite a few boogie boarders chomped by tigers,because Tigers attack and eat turtles and that's what boogie bds look like from below...one big Turtle.
Spent a fair bit of time up NW and seen plenty of tigers from 6 - 15'...but all were just cruising and to date I don't think there's been an attack in the NW?
Its amazing in the last few years around the Bells area we have seen more and more Dolphins,Orcas ,whales actually at Bells and Winki....with a huge increase in shark sitings......last year a 7 gill actually got onto a friends board.....at Bells...
I am wondering about the water temp and the role that this plays in attracting sea life......
30 years ago in summer the water temp here got up to about 16 degrees...now it can get to 22 .....I just got out of the water in a short john...could never surf on the surf coast in the ol days ..even on 40 + days in anything less than a short armed steamer...now crew surf in shorts till March....
I wonder if the water temp is a contributing factor in sharks being more active.....any change in the water temp in WA???..
Sorry Brutus, gotta pull you up on that comment re water temperatures being around 16 degrees in summer 30 years ago.
Weatherzone have a sea surface temperature anomaly chart which shows the difference in observed SST to a 30 year average running from 1971 to 2000.
If your claims were correct, right now, the anomalies in Bass Strait should be in the red zone and +6 degrees or so.
Unfortunately this isn't the case as you can see, and it's pretty neutral at the moment (not warmer at all compared to the last 30 years on average):
Sure, I think a small increase in water temp has been seen recently, prob a few degrees from 20 to 22 or so depending on the season, and as you say, locally inshore during those heat wave periods water temps would warm up over a week or so. But once it all mixes in it'd probably steady back to 20 degrees or so.
Around to the west towards Port MacDonnell you get really cold water from upwelling events in Summer (have surfed in a 4/3 and still been cold on a 40 degree summer day) but I don't think this extends too far east, and more so flows up towards the Coorong.
Hi Craig got those stats from Nick C.......all I know is I had to shoot an Add for Q?S in 1974......100 degree day,surfed in shorts at Bird Rock...only lasted a 1/2 hour....so cold....now you can surf in shorts from Jan>March......still cold down south...
I 'll get a hold on NC tomorrow and see where he got his info.......I do know one thing,it was a lot colder in the water 30 years ago than now!
Very interesting, keen to hear from NC.
I talked to Ed Sloane the other day and he said this summer has been ridiculously warm, ie boardies in that good swell last week!
Interestingly the Point Nepean buoy only shows 19.7deg and I haven't see it hit over 20.
Hi Craig spoke to NC yesterday...he saw the data on a print out sparrow Pybyrnes wall at RC..Anglesea 1970 > 2010.......lowest temps were 8.5...now about 12...and summer was 14...now 20....
tried to find the data on google...not really my thing ,going thru endless websites......but spoke to heaps of ol boys the last few days and we all agree the water is sooo much warmer now that it was 30 years ago..
what is the best search engine for the data?
I don't want to dampen ya fire boys .... but do you think that most " older " guys now carry a little more " insulation " than say 30 years ago ... I know i do .....
But what craig fails to recognise , is that SST data ( whilst correct ) is Satellite based , and as such will not pickup what the depths are doing ... And i reckon this is probably more your answer Brute . Divers will probably set you straight on this .... It has been a long dry summer , so less runoff . And Pt Nepean constantly has a flow rate ( apart from say 40 minutes of slack every six hours ) . So that area will always sho lower temps as there is more thermocline (depth- stratification) mixing .
The leuuwin has ran well into Vic for the first time in a long time in the last few years , the East Aust. Current has ran consistantly and we have have alot of Easterlies this year .
Whats missing or lacking strength is the cooler currents taht usually run up the west coast of Tassie , mix into bass straight and more so hold the end of the Leeuwin well up in the bight . or atleast temper it .
Lastly the water can't be that warm if the Orca's are about !!! .
Those figures in RC may have been a two year comparison ( singular years ) .One at the end of the Negative PDO trended period turning to positive ( coldest average ocean temps in a cycle ) , and the other 2010 at the end of a Positive PDO dominated trend of the IPO ( warmest average ocean temps in the next cycle .
Lets not forget that in the early seventies scientists were worried about global COOLING .....
Really hard to find old Temperature records for BOM weather stations without going through their fee for service archive service, let along Sea Surface Temperature records for a location.
And kinda what I was thinking Southey re insulation ;) Haha.
Might be worth tracking down Port of Melbourne stats or data from Lorne Tide Guage, usually tidal stations have SST records as well.
But for the temp to increase 6 degrees in 30 years is unprecedented and would be used in Climate Change studies world wide.
Maybe it was a large upwelling event at that time, which can indeed drop the water temps down to winter levels as that deep, cold subsurface water is brought to the surface. Hard to say.
I guess a main issue is finance. As far as 'where to from here', especially in view of the WA situation, has the government altered its stance on minimal funding? Is the CSIRO funding still grant based, or has the government made a real dollar/time commitment, along with the establishment of a clear objective and desired outcome? What results will you need to demonstrate to secure more government backing for your continued research?
Considering your long time association and friendship with WL, and his role with Patagonia, have Patagonia come on board, and if so, to what extent? Are there other business sponsors, surfing or otherwise, showing interest, as it seems there are a few similar players vying for dollars? If not, can you see your clothing company sales being strong enough to enable you to keep the endeavour running?
Science can inform the process but may take some time to determine if the white shark recovery is robust. Problem is we don't have baseline data on how many sharks there were before protected species status was implemented and more importantly before the fur seal , humpback and right whale populations were severely reduced by sealers and coastal whaling. We may be heading towards a level of abundance not seen in living memory.
Big thanx Kent..your info has been thoroughly interesting and informative! soo cool to hear from an expert who doesn't hype up either way but just tells it as is..cheers bruddah!!
Very interesting reading Kent. Looking around Kent's site and the csiro colleagues he works with led me to the set of pages csiro maintains about this work. Worth a look in addition to Kent's responses here I reckon. that's one of the pages but there are links with more info.
http://www.csiro.au/Outcomes/Oceans/Marine-Life/Sharks-index-page/White-...
All i can say is just leave all the F****** Sharks alone. We use there domain they don't use ours. So be it I have surfed for over 43 years I have been chased out of the water twice in 43 years, and once seen a big mother
Great white off Bawley Point years ago and I mean 20 foot and you know what it did kept swimming. What's the odds of being eaten you tell me. Being eaten alive in WA is like winning Lotto, and they win it a lot over there.
Can't really compare the east coast to what is going on in WA the last few years, what we once knew is all out the window.
I spent 20 years in the water Foster/Port area and not once felt that cold chill down the spine telling you to go in, yes we seen bronzies and the odd tiger spearing but only ever seen one white around the boat out off Palms.
Moved to WA and nothing for the first 8 years then boom! Bloody sharks everywhere.
Your welcome to come over to WA and test the waters out if you like, a few spots on the far south coast that might just increase your chance of that winning lotto ticket.......
It's a good wave but let's not compare Bawley Point with Elliston in terms of being anxious about shadows. Difference being is that most adults in Port Lincoln would know of a family who has been affected by a white shark attack. I think it's easy to forget there are deeper impacts socially in places where attacks occur semi regularly.
To all the readers and commenters,
We've had a great response to this article, and not just in term of number of comments. The input, mainly from Kent, but also others has created an incredibly informative comment thread.
Considering the information contained, and that Kent is also looking for a conduit linking the science and surf communities, we now need a way to store and update this information.
I'm open to suggestions from anyone but here are two options to begin with:
1) Swellnet creates an article with all pertinent information listed in point form (or something easy to annotate). The title would be very easy to search for via Google and also via our page search function, i.e "Kent Stannard - Whitetag - Shark Information". The article would get updated whenever necessary. Comments will remain open as per normal.
2) A new forum gets created on the Swellnet Forums. The main body will have Kent's information and comments will be open to add further information from others.
Personally I'm tending toward the first option as information can get lost or overlooked in forums, while on an article I can curate it so any worthy piece of information will end up a new point in the article. That way it'll work as a continuously updated document.
I'll speak to Kent about his thoughts. In the meantime feel free to offer suggestions or advice on the above.
-Stu
yeah stu ,
sounds good ... Agree with your comment that people tend to overlook forums ...
As just on traffic of commenters alone , and also there seems to be different people that comment in each ... ie the Forum can be hard to navigate for some ... including myself ;-)
perhaps both is an option ???
With a hyperlink from the new article to the forum . Also maybe ( people would appreciate you guys giving up valuable advertising space ) BUT if you always had some sort of shark icon or reference/link for people to click on to enter said Article even if it hasn't been used in a while .. ( keeping it current ) ....
i know i would like to tell people ( non surfers who have an opinion on this ) to visit / read this thread on your site ... and some of them would struggle unless they couldn find it with a simple " google - Swellnet - shark " ... this way they might want to entertain your oceanic weather forecasts also .. $$$ .
Feel free to " TRY " and make whatever has been forth spewed onto my keyboard , look ledgible aswell ....( good luck with that though ) ... perhaps you could email people the article before posting it in case 'other' people had issues with what they wrote ??
Positive Vibes....
I can 'usually' follow what you're saying without too much trouble. Anyway, the article is always able to be edited so the information and how it is articulated can be changed/improved.
Unfortunately the options are between an article and a forum post - gotta work within the exsiting site architecture. Also gotta think about how to make something semi-permanent on a medium that encourages transience.
As a new page has begun here's a re-post from the previous page:
To all the readers and commenters,
We've had a great response to this article, and not just in term of number of comments. The input, mainly from Kent, but also others has created an incredibly informative comment thread.
Considering the information contained, and that Kent is also looking for a conduit linking the science and surf communities, we now need a way to store and update this information.
I'm open to suggestions from anyone but here are two options to begin with:
1) Swellnet creates an article with all pertinent information listed in point form (or something easy to annotate). The title would be very easy to search for via Google and also via our page search function, i.e "Kent Stannard - Whitetag - Shark Information". The article would get updated whenever necessary. Comments will remain open as per normal.
2) A new forum gets created on the Swellnet Forums. The main body will have Kent's information and comments will be open to add further information from others.
Personally I'm tending toward the first option as information can get lost or overlooked in forums, while on an article I can curate it so any worthy piece of information will end up a new point in the article. That way it'll work as a continuously updated document.
I'll speak to Kent about his thoughts. In the meantime feel free to offer suggestions or advice on the above.
-Stu
see ...
just by posting. i made it difficult for you , and you had to re-post ... ;-)
Is there anyone in Lincon and the rest of SA (besides the operators) who support the cage diving ?
Has any groups tried to put a stop to it ?
cheers
The ab divers dont support it ! Tourism fully supports it
Any plans to come over west?
Thank you Kent for the treasure trove of information. This has been one of the best reads on Swellnet, and in any form of media since the shark culling debate began to rage. Perhaps we are seeing the gut feelings of change happening, and real science recording these changes, converge.
My first (knowing) up close experience with a mothership occurred recently, and it was profoundly humbling. It was just basking in the sun, as close as 50m or so and did not disturb me for over an hour. So I'm left in quiet awe.
Sorry for the lack of communication guys,I mentioned we were on a tagging trip off Wilsons Prom and reception was going to be an issue…Well it wasn't…Fact is we had zero..!
Geez,I don't know where to start…Too be honest,Ive been overwhelmed with emails,phone calls and comments regarding this forum…Id like to accept the credit but,Im simply an apprentice to Barry and Russ from CSIRO,these are the guys who deserve all the accolades and more importantly our support..Im just the conduit for their fact backed research…
I saw Stus suggestion for an ongoing forum in some shape or form,I think its a really good idea…We need to be onboard this issue as a community of ocean users ,whether it be a logging register for sightings,interactions,debate,suggestions,we are all part of it and its a constructive means of sharing knowledge and experiences…
We discussed this when away,the real danger period is when the weather in the southern ocean turns pear shaped heading into the colder months..Without a shadow of doubt,this is when the marine environment and all topics associated with it,slip off the radar and are replaced with AFL,Rugby,Soccer,skiing,etc,etc…
Unfortunately,the statistics show,the shark attack window in WA is from winter-spring, so its important we keep the lines of communication open and keep getting feedback from the eyes and ears on the water.So to the commercial and rec fishers out there,ab divers and surfers,start keeping records and report sightings to this upcoming forum as well as authorities..Now everyone owns mobile phones with cameras,photographs and videos are foolproof documentation..Even if you can't get a photo,pass on information to others if sharks are sighted...
Fingers crossed,its appearing we may be involved with the WA research shortly and by that,I do mean over the next few months…
I can't say anything further at this point but,fingers crossed some funding may come through from the Feds for increased WA research..
For those people who emailed me,Ill try and get back to you later today or tomorrow..
Thanks again for the support everyone,I hope its useful…All the best..Kent
Kent, cheers for all of the valuable info, it s great to see proactive research and study being done.
In regards to the various shark deterrent systems is there any promise in the Tech coming out of WA with the SAMS patterns, or the numerous electronic devices and also the "scent of a dead shark" repellent? obviously in the mean time until a management or control program is introduced most of us surfers are looking for ways to mitigate the apparent increased risk in certain areas of potential fatal or serious injury attacks.
Who is leading the research in this field, is there sufficient data to prove any of these repellent/deterrent devices are effective in any sense? I have been researching on the net over the last year and there seems to be little or in-concrete findings to support these technologies effectiveness, the science behind them is there and promising but I don't feel much confidence in any one particular system. Would the patterns used on WA GWS population work as effectively on the East Coast population?
Sorry for the barrage of questions, I am just trying seek a solution to reduce the risk in the mean time until something can be done and more research provides a better understanding of what is going on. There is no way I ll be staying out of the water so whatever I can do I ll be doing. There is quite a bit of discussion on the thread for the recent Fatal attack in Ballina you may be able to share your knowledge if you get a moment?
I Iive in the Ballina/Byron area and have definitely noticed more activity in the ocean over the last few years particularly the last 6months compared to previous years, I don't know what is going on but definitely feel a change is taking place. thanks
The drumline fishing boat is in Prevelly this morning. A fairly small day of surf so he is sitting right on the outside corner of the Bombie . No buoys out yet . They pulled the lines out in Perth on the weekend so they could run the Rottnest channel swim same should go for the supercontest at the point this year. Thanks MRBR hope you guys are copping flak for your outspoken stupidity, barley any of you guys surf the outside reefs anyhow so who cares if they hang bait there, right? Those spots must be no good for comps perhaps, I guess nobody can see how much you are ripping ? DICKS
I am a surfer of 40 odd years and have only really seen one shark from a distance for which I'm grateful. I agree that, rather than the knee jerk reaction that is happening at the moment, there needs to be research done. But not only on sharks on the whole ecology of the ocean. My question is why are these bigger sharks becoming more brazen? Is because we have over fished the ocean and taken most of the larger fish that these sharks would normally find out in deeper water so now they are coming closer to the coast lines to find food? This then leeds on to the much bigger picture of the management of our oceans as a sustainable resource.... lets not go there in this post.
A theory that I have for the increase in larger sharks on the west coast, is that since the closure of the whaling station at Albany in 1978 there have been an increase of whales migrating along the coast and with that brings the larger sharks. I am pretty sure in the days of the whaling station a number of these sharks would have been killed off to protect the catch of the whales.
"Biggest great white shark ever tagged in Australia off coast of WA".
Off Mistaken Island, Albany - just a short distance from Middleton Beach! The shark was 5.3m long. Location map here: http://swllnt.com/1iwoIhv
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/biggest-great-white-shark-ever-tagged-...
Mr Southey is this the article you wish for ?
http://m.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/swimmers-warned-after-si...
Pt Lincoln Times : One very lucky Abalone diver.