Sheeeitt....anyone who's worked fishing boats will understand from direct experience that sharks will quickly associate them as a source of food in the area.

Putting food sources (chumming) anywhere near humans is tantamount to wishing for an attack to happen as you increase the risk of shark/human interactions.

In the absence of firm scientific evidence (now how the fark are they going to get that?) a simple precautionary principle based on known shark behaviour (ie they sometimes bite humans with devastating results) should keep any shark tourism and chumming well away from people.

Agreed, they're eating machines.

All the guys I met in South Africa pretty much said the same SS. You chum the water, the sharks movement patterns change, they now come into areas where 15 years ago there were none/ limited sightings.

The last guy on the lid in Saffa who got taken, everyone in the area blames chumming. There's whole areas of coastline over there where guys won't surf anymore due to the large numbers of whites they see.

A controversial opinion:

The more we protect the top end of the food chain -- whites -- and the more we overfish the ocean -- removing their food sources -- the more shark attacks we will see.

I'd like to see commercial fishing licenses reduced by half or two-thirds.

It's rocket surgery, Steve, apparently.

I'd ban the chumming straight off. Keep your licences if they want them but ban the chumming.

I'd ban fish farming as well, for a string of unrelated reasons, but that's just me. I'm a hater!

Shark

Its unnerving, surfing say somehere like Pt Cartwright or even the Spit at the Seaway and seeing Trawlers coming past going into port and just knowing there would be a few Noahs tagging along Astern

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/13496644/huge-great-white-haule...

Yeah I hate that, it's the biggest...

Rodney Fox owns one of the cage diving licenses in Port Lincoln. I wonder if his research will be used to assess the risk of cage diving. Conflict of interest?

wonder if lynchy brought his surfboard?....we have put over 300 kms of net in the water between fowlers and troubridge over the last 3 months and havnt seen a pointer...maybe they are all at neptunes....i have heard they are seeing 4-10 each day out there.

Might be an idea to go back to shark watching from the boat, with a rifle like my uncle, instead of deliberately attracting them now that people like to go in the water.

There's a number of rock spots on the NSW NC that get fished for tuna this time of year. 10 or more years ago we'd land 90% of our fish... these days 90% of our fish get chomped by sharks sometimes in the first few seconds... the noahs are on it... I'll let you guess the spots ; )

Having gone on one of the cage diving missions a few years, we chummed up for 4 days and didnt see a shark LoL. Nearly as bad as a surfless
overseas jaunt, Neptune is a hell of a long way off the coast so id reckon the sharks would probably prefer the seals and fish, sounds like just another excuse for some beauracratic toing and froing plus
to appease the paranoid shark spookers,its thier domain.

The link between chumming and sharks changing their behaviour ie attacks is obvious. If you went back to when the cage dives started and asked fisho's how many sharks had attacked their boats they'd say fuck all. But now sharks quite frequently hang aroung fishing boats hoping for a free feed. The 'experts' keep telling us they are an intelligent fish so they know what a boat is, and they know a free feed is in order. If not why can't you chum on jetties when going for shark? It is easy for environmentalists or scientist to say there is no proof...because they are causing this shit. When the shoe is on the other foot they would be the first to cry and whinge..it is good to see it is biting them on the arse(so to speak) they would be out of a job..Aren't both sides doing it for money?

this is a bullshit issue. sharks kill a handful of people every DECADE. lets focus on car accidents on the way to the beach or violence on the gold coast or something substantial..the chumming in south africa was 10 miles (16 kms) from the shark attack
http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/wild/events-shark-attack-e...

heres a good quote "Since 2001, only 10 people have been killed by sharks worldwide, according to data collected by International Shark Attack File, an organization that tracks such incidents. That amounts to only about 4 percent of the fatalities from dog bites in the U.S. over that period. "

Right T- diddy .

I'm currently booking Tickets for Yourself to come and Join me to Surf The Neptunes ....
Still have the same view ?
We're not talking about some pissy Whaler , or Bull Shark . People rarely See or Survive White Attacks .

And before people start talking them up as the " Top of the Food chain " . May I remind people that Killer whales / Orca's have been sited again in Southern waters of late ... So with more Whites around , even Bigger and Cleverer prey follows .

The interaction between humans and dogs is immense, so of course there will be attacks and fatalities. The likelyhood of dying from a dog attack is tiny compared to the number of interactions. I think being a surfer in say, South Oz, you have a much higher chance of being killed by a pointer than a dog. The argument of cars or bees or dogs killing more people is not a good comparison.

Right Southy.

I guess we need to start watching out for those Mako sharks with the super brains, like in that ridiculous movie.

10 shark deaths worldwide since 2001 t-diddy???

Thats strange. Just last year there were 3 in Australia, 2 in Reunion, 2 in Seychelles, 2 in South Africa, 1 in Costa Rica, 1 in Kenya and, 1 in New Caledonia..... i'm no mathematician, but i'm pretty sure that was 12 last year. Also, there have been over a dozen deaths in Australia alone over the last 10 years.

Be curious to know how many attacks are on people wearing a black wettie, be interested to know if colour plays a part in humans being mistaken for seals.

Yeah t-dddy you're way off with your stats there!

white pointer numbers are around 3,500 for the whole world.
so less than tigers. I mean actual tigers, not tiger sharks.

they are super endangered, super secretive and we know fvck all about them.

I would shit my pants if I saw one(a great white that is), while surfing, but on average, there is 4.3 fatal attacks per year. for all species.

I suspect there may be a disparity between reported fatalities and actual confirmation of a real shark fatality. That is to say, those Perth fatalities were not confirmed as actual shark attacks, from memory no one actually saw any shark.

amazingly, humans kill 100 million sharks per year for stupid shit like fin soup, and most species are extremely low in numbers but attacks and fatalities stay roughly the same as humans enter the water in higher numbers.

I'm just glad i surf in QLD and not WA.

Bum acid. Yes, the perth attack (off cottesloe beach) was never confirmed, but that was only one of the 3 in WA waters. They retrieved the blokes torn bathers from the water whilst searching for his remains, which were never found.

The guy that was killed off rottnest was pulled out of the water by his mates and suffered "horrific injuries". His mates also saw a 3m shark hanging around the boat........ as BR would say, "join the dots"

The attack in bunker bay was witnessed by the victims mates and a handfull of other surfers. Half his body was brought to shore by his mates. Seems a pretty good 'confirmed' attack to me!

The numbers of people entering the water has definetally increased as you say, but I can tell you that over the last 2 years in WA the attacks and fatalities have not stayed "roughly the same" as previous years, and the number of sightings in the cape to cape stretch seems to be on the increase. The last thing we need in our waters over here is chumming

@ red rocket .

Whatever ......

The facts are ,

Up until the Sad departure of the Likeable " Smithy " at Noisies , who was attacked by Two Whites Infront of Dozens of Onlookers . It was deemed that whites were lone hunters ....
Now Orca's on the other hand Grow bigger , are known to attack White's and anything else that moves in the wild ( including their handlers at some aquarium marine parks ) and very openly hunt in Packs . The Southern Oceans carnivore species are numerous , survival of the strongest , smartest and fittest.Why can't we be the Smartest , and limit the danger .
Let them play on your mind everytime you enter the water . And before anyone says don't enter the water well maybe from wherever comfortably you surf you either stop outright or pick up stumps and relocate away from your roots and Family .
It just doesn't happen .
So lets not get all warm and fuzzy about how they are beautiful creatures . We protect children in parks from dangerous Dogs , why not take precautions in our "playground" ....Untill that is , they CAN'T RULE OUT a link ....

For me part of the excitement of living and therefore surfing in the southern states of Oz is knowing that these dangers exist every time you paddle out. Its what makes surfing so different to footy, cricket etc. Southey has some good points about Orcas though ( think id rather see a white! ). But when youve just started paddling out to an offshore wave in a deep dark channel by yourself and that feeling that runs up your spine that you might not be alone sets in, well, i dont think anything else can make you feel more alive! And i wouldnt want it any other way. (If i did id play tennis)

I have been buzzed twice in the last 4 years by whites & until that time i had never had even a sniff of one in the south west.The only other time i had ever seen one was coming back from Rotto when i was a boy in the late 60's in my old mans boat & that was attacking a discarded yellow 44 gallon drum.I can only speak from experience but i reckon the bastards are hungry & that they will eat anything that comes there way.I also think that they have more brains than they are given credit for (how else can they have the ability to stalk there prey using weed banks & the reefs as camoflage).Here is another theory i have heard & that is the reason they come in & take a bite of us salt water types & leave us is that they are not to sure about us & that we could potentially injure them so they would prefer to wound us & sit back & wait till we stop convulsing then come back & finnish the meal.Most surfers & divers have been dragged from the water by someone soon after the attack so Mr Whitey hasn't been able to finnish the job.

From what i have heard they do the same with big bull sealions.I dont know what the fish stocks are like over east but i know that in my life time that they have been severely reduced up & down the west coast.You just dont see the schools of salmon & mullet down south or the massive schools of tuna & Mackies up north to the same extent 30 years ago,plus the virus that wiped out the mulie fishery 10 to 12 years ago down here& with the increase in whale numbers travelling up & down the coast it all adds up to nervous times for us ocean lovers.
ps 3 bears was closed yesterday after a big white was seen @ sugarloaf.

Coupla years back I did a shark cage dive at Shark Alley, near Cape Town, South Africa. We saw about a dozen great whites. There were another 10 or so boats in the area, and they all had sharks around them. And these were the ones we saw - who knows how many there were that we didn't see. The tour guide was chumming the water and using a floating chunk of tuna to bring them closer to our cage.

Having seen these monsters up close and personal, I couldn't think of anything more scary then attracting them near known swimming/surf spots. They are HUGE.

Never seen a shark in the water while surfing, but did have an encounter with one (species unknown) while sea kayaking. I used to talk it up about what I'd do if I ever encountered a shark - until I actually did. Needed the brown cords afterwards!

Frother, you are correct, I only remembered the one where the guy simply vanished and it was assumed it was a bitey.

2011 was a freaky year, three times the average fatalities for the previous decade.

maybe it's because their food supply is being over-fished to fuck, maybe not. there is also a lot fewer great whites, it would be hard to prove a direct link between that.

I do think more people in the water leads to more attacks. I wouldn't be surfing alone in WA at dusk or dawn at any remote spot.

chumming up seas for cage-diving thrillseekers isn't wise though, it would be hard to argue it doesnt lead to a change of behaviour, sharks are pretty fvcken smart.

Ah Southey,

You remind me of another fanatical shark hater. Vic Hislop. You now have Orca's in your sights . Where will it stop ? Maybe we need to kill every animal on the planet, just in case they pose a remote threat to man.

No , we just don't need to be stupid and encourage THEIR lack of inquisitive fear . That will no doubt disappear even further when they know that we are not a threat to them ...... In this way ,i would say they are just like Dog's . Humans should always maintain their Alpha dominance . And by that I mean being smarter ......
As for Orca's well they tend to be habitual , but very adaptive in their hunting technique's . No other predator in the Ocean has such as varied palette ... I'm pretty sure that they " recently " haven't been known to attack Humans in the Wild .
I was just pointing out that , historically fisherman have had the most contact with whites , know most of their behaviour , and that others that wanna hug 'em should really wake up to themselves ...
Doesn't mean I wanna exterminate them ....

Not wrong there bum acid, last year was bloody sketchy. As for surfing at dusk or dawn, from my personal encounters I don't think time of day makes a big difference. I've come across them at all hours of the day, though have probably seen less during late arvo sessions.... maybe due to the sunset glare.

Mr bumblister. 3 bears is a regular haunt of the old noahs ark, as are the beachies to the north (sandpatch, windmills and other side of the moon, as well as boneyards & farm to the east, rockies etc). There's a seal colony lives around the corner behind quarries, has a viewing platform and all! It's not often the breaks around there are closed as surfers don't tend to report the sightings, due in part to the regular occurence of sightings. Hopefully the noahs are well fed in that area with plentifull seal that I imagine attracts them to the area.

Saltwater crocodile tours have had repercussions in the NT that might be similar to what could occur with cage diving and chumming. There are tours on the Adelaide river where salties are encouraged to jump for a feed which has caused the salties to follow the sound of boats. This makes a fishing trip in your average tinnie a little sketchy as the salties now follow you around and occasionly get a little agitated.

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/03/05/3522_ntnews.html

I'm in no way encouraging the culling of sharks as they're amazing creatures and are native to our oceans (as are spiders and snakes to our shores). Goofyfoot said "part of the excitement of living and therefore surfing in the southern states of Oz is knowing that these dangers exist every time you paddle out". I also occasionally get this rush during lulls, though there can't be a sane person out there that would want to experience an attack, either to themselves or their mates. It would be fucking horrific and traumatising!

I hope that they do some decent research into the possible behavioural changes that chumming might have on sharks before they go handing out permits to people looking for $

The very strong anecdotal evidence from here (NENSW) is that GWS are increasing in number, concomitantly with the increase in Humpback whale numbers.

Sightings of GWS are now very common here in spring as the whales come back south with their calves.

Shark numbers as a whole may be on the decline but I would very much doubt that decline would extend to coastal populations of Whalers (bronze and bullsharks) and certain populations of GWS.

Why not revoke all cage licences, ban chumming and start marketing South Oz as a surf destination. Lord knows they have the waves for it.

"start marketing South Oz as a surf destination."

Come on out Jeff Schmucker. You're fooling no-one.

G'day Frother ,i know about the seals @ quarries & the shark sightings around cape nat. Iam not trying to blow wind up my arse but i have been surfing regularly around the capes since 1975 & i have only seen two sharks & that was in the last 4 years.Both times they came straight at me & veered just before i emptied my bowels,once out mummas & the other time @ lefties.The first i had heard of a big shark @ bears was about 10 years ago when Tom Trigwell was spooked out mummas ,but since then it has been a regular occurance on the grapevine.As for the GWS being well fed @ Quarries what about the poor soul @ Boneyards.RIP

I Think we should Cull them not feed them.Geo bay has been flogged for years,the ecology is out of balance .I dont mean a wholesale slaughter just a levelling of the playing field.I dont trust the fisheries dept ,i will listen to the pro fisherman & ab divers not some boffins who cant even catch the buggers on long lines & tag them.Sorry if i sound a bit sensitive about this subject but i have 2 groms that surf with me every day & have friends with grommies that love to surf & i value human life above a sharks any day.I didnt hear this much debate or hand wringing when the dingoes were culled a few years ago on Fraser island or about the flogging the poor old roos get in oz & they are our national emblem .Make some money out of the GWS in wa & sa .Put a quota on them & let rich big game fisherman pay a motza to catch them ,the bigger they are the more they pay & then use that money to study them & their enviroment.They are supreme & cunning hunters & in my opinion are far more intellegent than are given credit for,why on earth would you give them a free feed for the sake of a few tourist dollars.Its hypocritical to claim that they should be left in their natural enviroment & then feed them like a circus animal.

When seals take a rest up on the rocks they will spend a few days laying in the sun and pissing all over themselves. ( And who wouldn't). The smell of stale urine is what then attracts sharks to them. The morale of the story is to make sure you wash your wetties out after a long surf if you've had a slash. I don't know if this is true or not but I got the story from a salty old dog and it won't do any harm.

I don't think we are going to figure out any time soon why sharks attack humans and why attacks appear to be happening more frequently. I agree, we need to be smarter about this. Firstly, I think shark tourism is irresponsible. Especially in W.A at the moment - talk about ringing the dinner bell! Even if there is no proven association between attacks and cage diving, when it comes to human life is it really worth the risk? I find the whole idea of shark tourism in W.A baffling. We are such a nanny state here, so many rules and regulations you can't sneeze in public for fear of getting fined yet they are considering approving something that could possibly and very really endager human life? A big WTF there from me.

All of this aside I think we need to look at other methods of protecting ourselves. No one will stop surfing so money needs to be spent on what we can control. R&D on wetsuits or boards with effective, inbuilt shark deterrents in them. I know stuff like this is already on the market for diving etc but at least it's something that can be tested for effectiveness and used as a level of protection. As surfers and ocean lovers we need to adapt to the changeing environment to continue to pursue the things we love. Simply killing sharks won't solve the problem. Let's look at the big picture.

Late last year I was invited to a shark alert meeting held by sport and rec in WA.After hearing about the close incounters with gws down south you do start to wonder is it the same shark turning up at the surf spots.There seems to be more seals in the the cape to cape area and they are not dumb animals,a few times it was noticed that the seals were swimming into the line up for protection while being chased by a gws.I do not think that the fisheries department have any idea of numbers of gws,maybe if they spoke to cray fishermen and surfers they would get more of an idea. My thoughts were that a massive cull is not the answer but if a large shark is hanging around close to shore then he or she should be taken out.As for the theory that they bite first then come back to finish us off goes,the poor dude off Busselton who got had before easter the remains were found a few days later washed up on a beach,the attack happend 1600mts offshore.

Sharks are not an uncommon thing to see were i live and surf. i am shit scared of them but it doesnt stop me from surfing, early late alone or in isolated spots. Its a part of surfing its something you have to weigh up.

Ithink this chumming thing is bullshit its just obviously dumb but i cant believe people still want to kill a few for piece of mind or want a special thing in their wetsuit to protect them. if you cant handle it dont surf. i think its us over populating the water anyway.

I would say they are definetly on the increase. Surfing the outer barrier reef often i have noticed noahs are far more common these days. And they arent small ones, these are bismarks that get out there.
Tiger sharks are also increasing in numbers and like the NT saltware crocs are also increasing in large amounts to. What can you do?

I fear Irukandji more than sharks anyday, at least you can see sharks pretty easily in the clear water up here. Irukandji are invisble landmines waiting to fuck you up.

@daintreelocal

Interesting -- I dreamt of surfing the outer barrier reef 25 years ago even went to the reefs authoritys in Townsville at the time to ask if it was possible to run surf tours to the OBR... they said it was possible but... I never followed through with it... pity

I hope Rodney Fox gets his liecence suspended, he is a TOTAL FRAUD !!! I have a book written by him called "shark attack" by Rodney Fox, In it he describes being bitten by a large bronze whaler whilst spear fishing, Now we all know theres no glory in surviving a bronzie attack, but to survive a great white attack is something else. When did you change your story to a great white RODNEY?? and why dont you let everyone know you hunted and killed 1000's of innocent sharks after your attack by a bronzie??? Instead you cashed in, became a GURU on great white sharks, changed your story, say we need to protect them, dont understand them, then you probably stole all the copies of your shark attack book back off the people you sold it to?? Now you chumm up the water, tow fake seals behind your boat to make them jump, ALL TO FILL YOUR FAT GREEDY POCKETS!! Your a fraud and i wish it was a great white that bit you coz you would be DEAD and we wouldnt have to listen to your bullshit everytime someone gets attacked by a white.. Stop chumming the waters you GOOSE. jump overboard next time your out at Neptunes and see if they mistake you for a seal. Its all true and you know it you asshole

@surferjoe Its great you didn't, We like our waves empty with only the locals out (noahs) ;)

@stunet Yea they are nasty fuckers. Old mate got hit by one a couple of years ago while surfing out there and we where at least 2 hours from land. We had to make a detour to one of the tourist reef pontoons that had a helipad and get him evacuated, By the time he got on the pontoon he went into total shutdown and the paramedics where doing cpr on him for most of the flight back. 10 minutes more and we think he might of not made it. It was enough for him to stop surfing with us.

Stinger suits don't work because they are so small and can always wash into your suit or brush your face.

But the waves make you get out there and it keeps the kooks away.

"The pain was so bad - and this line always stuck with me - he said 'if someone put a gun in front of me I would've shot myself in the head to end it.'"

-- Spoken like a man who's had to spend an afternoon with my mother in law.

@braithy

Haha, im spent yesterday and today with both inlaws/outlaws and yea i think i would rather stick a handfull of Irukandji down my pants while spearfishing for saltwater crocs in the daintree river with goatboat paddle.

@stunet yea mate that is apparently true. I think some of the noosa locals would welcome them, those fuckers would empty the point pretty fast ;)

Yea you just nod at the outlaws, "yea yea, right, aye, ok, oh really?, wow" all the time mindsurfing. Surfers ear would be good for that haha.

pharmer, which shark attack are you refering to on rodney fox.....? aldinga reef in the 60s.....horrific injuries from that attack, or was the bronze whaler attack another we hadnt heard about ? no bronzie on this planet could chomp into a human and do the damage which was done to rod fox in the 1960s attack, that was 100% white bite...

Well while we are on the topic of jellys, wondering if anyone could have a stab at answering this one. Box jellys (Chironex fleckeri) are found and feared around the Airlie Beach region, yet when I lived on Hamilton Is, roughly 16km away, there was no threat or worry amongst the general concensus. There are mangroves and estuaries that are very similar to those found on the mainland, yet no boxies? Been puzzling me and my mates for years this and still no real answer.

Regarding the noahs, should we not be looking at other proven factors ie low fish stocks as a possible reason for more frequent encounters? I dare say that snacking on that tuna sambo before paddling out my have a more direct link to more frequent encounters than chumming down the coast.

@rude_beef

They are there, maybee you where there outside the nov-may jelly season? They are mostly coastal lurkers but i have seen a few on the outer reef from time to time. Ive seen plenty on the coastal areas and thats how i got hit by a boxy simply bait fishing with a cast net.
To be honest i found the giant stinging nettle up here (gympie gympie) much more painfull and for far longer than a boxy sting. But i only got a small wack across my shin, i would imagine having your entire leg or stomach etc probably a bad experience.
Hard to put a real answer to your question, But like sharks they are always around when the season is on sometimes you see them, sometimes you dont. With them breeding rapidly the last few years and numbers increasing im sure you gonna see stinging victims sooner than later on hamilton
Its the ones you can see just like sharks that arent the problem.

JCU has a some good info you can check out regarding the jellys.
http://www.jcu.edu.au/stingers/information.htm#infotop

Remember to sacrifice a goatboater before each surf to huey to stay safe.

To encourage the right behaviour we give dogs treats. Cats know who feeds them. Horses know a free feed when they see it. It's not hard for anyone (you dont have to be Einstien) to see the association with food, animals & humans at home.

In the case of dogs cats and anything else we keep in our homes we provide the home, the food and the companionship.

Sharks have the home,they have what little there is of companionship. The only thing get from us, if we volunteer it is food. They actually dont need us but if we offer food then an absence of food puts us on the menu.

It's just plain ordinary logic, common sense, down right ordinary in your face obvious.

I have not yet met a dog whisperer, horse whisperer etc that has a science degree. You dont need a degree to communicate and lets face it most of these highly degreed experts could not communicate with a dog on a basic level, IM HUNGRY is obvious.

Action equals reaction, feed it and it wants more, dont feed and it still wants, YOU.

In regards to the increasing numbers of deadly stingers in Northern Australia.Could the plummeting populations of sea turtles around the world who eat jellyfish be an explanation?

Mr Buumblister, if that is your real name, I've heard this is definatly a factor, though from what I gather its extremly difficult to figure exactly how much of an impact turtle numbers can have. With jellyfish only making up a percentage of a turtles diet, perhaps with the decline in seagrass levels we could see an increase in predation of jelyfish? No grounds on that but just a thought.

I've also heard that run-off and the associated increase in nutrient levels often provides a better breeding habitat for jellyfish, which would lead to greater numbers.

I find this stuff sooo interesting cause there is so much unknown to us.

Well it makes sense. Although, I imagine the strongest behavioural stimuli effecting the sharks patterns (and linking them to humans) would be the boats as opposed to people. Boat = food. Not People = food. So the link to surfers is a little vague, although I would not be happy about chumming anywhere near where I paddle out. Why? Considering that I don't tend to take a boat with me? Becuase there is no hard evidence one way or the other. Aha, and someone stated that there are only 3500 Whites left,... that's an interesting estimate that can not be substantiated by any stretch of the imagination.

Sounds like a theory worthy investigating mr bumblister.

A few years back in Hawaii I did a shark dive as a pre bought birthday surprise , i wasnt to keen but didnt wont to disapoint and was a bit curious even though ive been up and personal my fair share with the man in the grey suit as a keen dive surf fisherman .As we travelled out I got talking to the operator , he was saying that it was the perfect business initially u go to the same spot chum up and they follow not long after . But after a short period they are just like a dog same time everyday dinners here ! As we approached he said they will be here in the hundreds just by the familiar sound of the boat sure enough he was right but chum still went in to get the frenzy happening .after experiencing the cage dive my opinion was made up . This is WRONG !!!!! ,I live in wa and these awesome creatures seam to be attracted to boats as myself and alot of guys here are seeing the same behavior . They ll
Pop up for a look circle a few times until WE move on and on occasions will follow u and come up again . Alot of people here think this definatly has some link to the chumming & regular enticing of sharks to boats for our viewing pleasure . The fact that these creatures have a yearly pilgramige around the globe makes it impossible to say that distance offshore and proximity to the public this is business is carried out changes our safety , we know the distances they are capable of travelling in a single day , so what happens in other parts of the world can affect us all if it is proven to change the sharks social and feeding paterens .I think more research in this area is very important even though I personally think there numbers have recovered alot more than we are led to believe this is there environment and we need to co excist ,It's only my view but I respect that every time I hit the water for a session I take that risk but I strongly believe we shouldn't encourage human to shark interaction and I certainly wouldn't do it again.

@ victor, Rodney has only been attacked once that know of, spoken to him personally in the 80's, He wrote a book, called shark attack, There was a large bronzie sighted in the area they were spearfishing. I have personally seen a 12 ft bronzie, couple years ago, there pretty agressive from my expierences fishing, who knows how big they were back in the 60's before Rodney & co tried to wipe them out? Why did he write a book with those graphic photos and say it was a bronzie?? I have the book, well my mum does. Get your hands on a copy and read it yourself. He wasn't attacked by a white, 100%. He knows it and so do i. He should also stop chumming the water, it changes the sharks perception of boats, ie free feed around boats. i believe that is true. im no professional, just using my common sense.

If they ever catch a bronzie that has chompers that even come close to matching the bite on Rodney Fox I will eat my hat.

jeff schmucker, what do you think ? long time shark fisher you have probably seen more pointer action than most, whaler or pointer bite marks ? on rod fox......

@reecen, you eat your hat------ill eat me arse....

i took a photo on the weekend of a 10ft bronzies jaws, similar size bite mark as Rods, you'd be suprised, l will try to upload it, and would love to see you eat your hat and arse!! i will try find the book he wrote at my mums, she's a hoarder so it will be there somewhere, and scan a couple pages. My good friends brother was bitten by a 5m white a few years back, it bit him in half in one chomp, they only found a matchbox size piece of lung tissue, and his unmarked boardshorts with the car keys in his pocket. Thats what happens when a white bites you. heard a similar story from a school friend who tried to help his boss back onto the boat when a white shark bit him, there was only his legs and tourso to take home. Rod was competing in a spearfishing contest, blood and guts everywhere, he wanted to win the contest, was carrying his catch on him, trying to spear a bigger fish. Nasty bite marks agreed, but white pointer, sorry boys, would have bit him in half. He wrote a book about it for christ sake, google it, the book that is, shark attack by Rodney Fox. i dont need to as i heard him tell his story to our diving club in the 80's, mum bought a copy. now eat your hat mate.

Interesting claims the-pharmer. I did a quick google search and could only find the book Shark Attack! by Cathy East Dubowski, a 1998 publication.

In it it has the Great White being the shark that attacked him but obviously this has been published well after the 1963 attack in which you claim it was a bronzie.

If your accusations are true this is a considerable change in story, especially with Rodney being associated nearly wholly with GW's.

Can i wait until there is something besides an alleged book at your mum's and a story in the 80's told to a diving club before i eat my hat? I dont even want to start thinking about Victor preparing his evening meal based on that evidence.

Lol, sure mate you can wait, i have uploaded photobucket to my mobile, sent a picture to there of a 10ft Bronzies jaws up against a friends body, same area as Rods attack. But i dont know how to share it to swellnet forums. It wants to send it to facebook. Maybe i should try my pc? Or Craig could friend me and share the photo that way. As for scanning the book, i could be breaching copyright and Rod would have my arse for dinner!! I talked to my mum and she recalls Rod and wife staying with us and remembers the book. She also said other members of the wallaroo and district diving club having no time for Rodney as he is cashing in on surviving an alledged great white attack and strongly disagree with his chumming of the waters. Im sure one of the members have the book Rodney wrote called Shark attack if anyone is interested in reading it and i cant find mums copy. Either way Rodney Fox knows he wrote that book, and would probably not reprint it or admit it as its not in his best interest. Who knows how many copies he printed before he changed his story. Not many i suspect, it was the mid 80's some 15 or so years after he was attacked. I have no reason to lie about anything ive written in this post, im just sick of hearing Rodney on Tv everytime there is an attack. And oppose chumming the water to attract sharks. If you want to see the jaws of a 10 ft bronzie against a human torso, teach me how to upload a photo. In the meantime i will search for a copy of his book.

Had a look online, theres a book called shark attack and adventures with Rodney Fox, printed in 1975 by oneil wetsuits, the author is Ruhen Olaf, This sounds like the book im talking about? Cant remember what it says in there but can remember him telling me personally he thought it was a bronzie and that a large one was sighted that day. So if anyone wants to have a read, you'll have to buy it. was $10 US for an old copy and $30 US for a good copy. I dont need to buy this book, i already know the truth, and will look for my mums copy. Just putting it out there for any punters that want to have a look.

If you just post the link that it gives you on photobucket here we can click though and see the picture the-pharmer, otherwise personal message me with ya name and we can become 'friends' haha.

Posted photo on the SA Thread, that forums thread had the blue box in the box above to upload, this one didnt on my pc?? maybe you can move it Craig, The photo is of what i was told by a mate "fisherman" after a few ales, (and we all know what fishermans are like!) To be the jaws of a 10ft bronzie caught off wedge island. Check out the stitcher marks of the bite size on Rodney of the shark, forget the gorry abdomen shots, paper can cut pretty deep, Here's a bit of triva for ya from briefly googling Rod, that shark attacked him whilst trying to get that big strongie to regain his state title, it was held near Aldinga Reef, a Common feeding ground of the Bronze whaler, rarely are whites seen there, (until recently perhaps?)The shark attacked him 3 times, once on the upper torso, crushing all his ribs and inflicting deep lacerations, second time it came back, he punched it in the mouth and then grabbed onto the shark by its belly so it couldnt bite him, then it circled again, then grabbed his speared fish attached to some rope/catch bag? not sure? but it dragged him down again, Rod near dead, then the rope broke and he floated to the surface and was rescued and raced to hospital and got sewn up near new. Absoulutly Horrific situation to be in.Sounds to me like a whaler attack... Now, how many people survive 3 attempts by a great white to munch ya ?? and how many people are capable of grabbing on to the belly of a GW, the ones Ive seen, the girth is more frightening than the length, And i have seen a few, fishing and surfing in the southern spencer gulf, One reminded me of an STA bus. His story has a few contradictions but one that stands out for me is he doesnt say how big the GW was? nearly ever other story of any other GW attack the size is in the first sentence. There was also mention of powerheads, and other means of defending themselves from the sharks they knew little about. Did also notice he still had a piece of GW teeth lodged in his hand?? when did that turn up i wonder??, and it would make his story very authentic?? I dont doubt some of the work he has done with sharks is fantastic, but dont like seeing exploitation of our natural resources for personal gain of very few. over and out...

@ pharmer, nice work..keep digging this could end up being the big south oz fib....craig can you get a comment out of fox and son on this...we need the truth here.....gotta join the dots before rotty does .......may have to eat what i promised.....wish id have said hat to ! so for 50 yrs has rod been fibbin about the attack ?

@ pharmer, just saw the pic you posted...dont think im gonna have to eat anything......the distance between fox's teeth marks and whaler teeth configuration...no match....fox's are definite wide spaced pointer triangulation teeth marks...see jawshark.com......

Thanks for the photo pharmer, but as Victor has pointed out the puncture wounds on Rodney look more consistent to a GWS bite as they are further spaced and more triangular.

That bronzie photo shows the teath closer spaced and smaller. Could of been a juvenile GW coming back on 3 occasions. Still worth digging deeper but!

I agree with the bite marks looking more consistent with a GW bite as bronzies have smaller teeth, that photo was. a10fter, maybe it was a larger bronzie or a different shark? Sharks normally shake there head as they bite to rip a chuck out and it did crush all his ribs. Bronzies are very aggressive and nearly always attack the slop line when im fishing . Still doesn't.explain why he personally told me it was a whaler, i was a 10 yr old boy in a diving club and was fascinated by white sharks and said the same thing about the punture marks being to large.? Would like to know more about the tooth lodged in his hand and would like to hear from one of the guys who rescued him as the shark circled him 3 times while be was on the surface, he was skin diving wasnt he?? Story he told me was a bronzie was sighted. Surely someone else could verify these facts.

Also dont GW have dual layer/ rows of teeth, even up to 3 -4 rows? Hence why most victims are bitten in half, have to have a closer look myself at Rods injury.

The Fox thing is interesting do we deserve the right of forgivnes for our sins if we go about rectifying them along with the story of the attack and vairying degrees of truth that go with it there is a photo I have seen of Rodney with 6 or more GWS piled up dead on the back of his boat at Dangerous reef. There is also0 a vidoe i have seen of Rodney, Ron and Valerie Taylor on a shark hunting mission through the wourld that ended up here in South Oz. but this talk of the past dosent get us any closer to what we should do next. SCD dose give some sort of education or understanding of the GWS or it should if the tour is run correctly, it dosent need to be a thrill seeker adrenilin rush if you want that go jump of a cliff in your own time dont engage or endanger wild life no matter what it is. Should nt we look towards solutions that give us all what we need or want. we are never going to rid our selfs of a SCD industry and we all want to surf and use the water ther are ways of atracting shark with out bait or blood and if we are inovative enough through the prosses there is ever chance that we may even come up with a better tool to repel sharks as at the same time. the more we know about sharks the better we are prepared to deal with or aviod them, shark based tourism love it or hate it will play a role in this

Ex-surfer, ex shark fisher in SA, gettin' old. Rodney Fox came out on my Dad's boat in Pondy back in the 60's. Saw his bite marks and he said it was a bronzy at the time. To me it doesn't matter, having dived with the whale sharks and done the SCD with the music attraction, they are majestic creatures. Seeing the footage and shots of the SCD from the blood boats, it is so different and totally demeaning and shouldn't be allowed. You don't go to a safari park in South Africa and kill a goat for the blood to attract a lion so you can see it. Foxy and those guys have got 'blood on their hands'. There is a proven better way. "Restrict licences from 3 to 2"? Bullshit, restrict to 1, until the others learn.

@gil & mattsaltwater,
Thanks for your posts, I was sure i wasnt the only one the Fox had told it was a bronzie, And Rod and Co hunted and killed a lot of innocent sharks after his attack. Then somewhere along the way(late 80's, early 90's he changed his story, as their is more glory if it was a white shark attack. Rod said to me "if it was a white, Id be dead". I have a couple posts on this topic in the ask smucko forum for anyone interested and a photo of jaws of a 10 ft bronzie on a forum called sa threads. I have also located a copy of his 1975 book, which i am waiting to arrive.Sounds like i dont need to prove myself any more thanks to above posts. The evidence is already there, you just have to read between the lines. Im not going to expose the Fox publicly, it was never my intension, I'll leave that to you reecen. I agree that the past is the past, we cant change it, but may go as far to start a petition to stop chumming for his cage diving circus. If Rod knows so much about sharks, he would know its the wrong thing to do, no matter how many times a year he does it. Once is to many times, along with his towing seals to make them jump. Why not let metropoliton shark fishermen chum local jetties??
My friend was scurfing at glenelg when two whites attacked him, Rod or Andrew said on TV they dont hunt in packs, and it would have only been 1 shark, but i believe the first hand eye witnesses on board that saw Nick in the jaws of a large white, punching it in the head when the second white came in and bit him in half, I relate, not blame Rodneys towing of fake seals and chumming to Nicks attack. He was a great lad. I will never scurf or let my kids do it in snapper season. I enjoyed a wave yesterday and saw a large unidentified marine creature not that far from the surfers in the water when i got out, Didnt phase me to much, that fish probably has patrolled that reef for decades getting his usual dinner, I'd like to keep it that way, not change the sharks feeding patterns. I believe its because we are taking a lot of their natural food sources, hence why we are seeing them more often. At my local fishing ground, i used to bag out in 15 minutes everytime, now longliners come from all over the peninsula 7 or 8 a night and take there ton each. No wonder the price of snapper is so cheap and i struggle to get my limit these days. Somethings gotta giv soon, and i am seeing more large sharks closer in than ever before. I dont believe GW numbers are exploding, there just looking elsewhere for there daily meal. I could be wrong as a lot of people are telling me they are but i have read about their breeding cycle and think the damage is already done and they will be lucky to not become extinct in the future which would be a tradgety.
Also worth noting is Jeff saying there all at neptunes GW's that is, i have a marine biologist friend working out there that says the same thing, never seen so many. Thats where Rodney does his chumming, Coincidence or not?? i think not. Neptune Island is approx 120 km from Adelaide i think?? How far does a large white travel in a day, week?? hopefully for me they are heading from Rods circus to South Africa where they have GW cage diving?? Is there any in west oz? been unusually high number of attacks there recently. Sounds like Rods been exposed as a fraud, and a couple other guys will be looking up recipes how to best prepare a hat or their arse for dinner!! Pictures please guys

Got the book, had a quick look, i will qoute a Rodney on the way to hospital that solves the mystery beyond doubt i think??.

" I wanted my flippers off, because my feet were feeling bad. Anyway they took them off. I think i must have said at this time "Bronze Whaler"; something like that. I dont know why i did. i didnt have any preconcieved ideas. I didnt know what type of shark it was at the time. I didnt have much knowledge of sharks, All sharks were dangerous, that was all........Later of course, when we checked out the tooth marks on my body, there wasnt any doubt at all it was the bite of o graet white shark or white pointer as its sometimes called.. Looks like the pharmer was wrong and owes Rod an apology, please accept this as it... And you boys can stop sweating on having arse and hat for dinner.. The book is a good read so far, only read a couple pages so far but has some good stories in it. Over and out..

the pharmer,

I've been following this thread with great interest and have admired the strength of you conviction. Even more so that you are able to admit you were wrong. That is a true test of character and you passed with flying colours.

Good on you mate.

@ pharmer good onya for coming clean and to admit you were wrong, a true genuine AUSSIE country bloke........a guy to link up with down your way andre gorgescu...former white pointer hunter,had caught and killed 38 uptil 1997...his knowledge of both gulf waters and investigator straight is unbelievable .realesed a couple of dvd's a few years back on hunting and hand feeding whites.... i must add that HE NO LONGER KILLS THEM .[googled around his dvds are still available] he actually hunted caught and killed a large white that took terry gibson at marino in the 1980s.

Said I was old. Memory must be fading. Fair enough Rodney Fox, but stop the blood and feeding, it leads to accidents where they bite each other and has been recorded to cause unnecessary deaths. You can bring them in peacefully and with pride using the music. It ain't rocket science, talk to Matt.

The whole thing seems like a bit of a good old fashion witch hunt. Bunch of people who dont really have any clue what the problem or the answer is but to make themselves feel better try and persecute somone.
Not condoning chumming at all but who is to say it is better then "music" for all we know those bloody shark shields are attracting sharks?
For decades their have been abbatoirs, whaling stations, fish factories etc etc etc, pumping tons of blood guts and offal into the waters of Australia, they are cleaned up mostly now but surely they had a bigger impact then a couple of shark tour boats.

Who care's about Rodney Fox? he is a wanker fullstop.Reecen you are a tool. This article was about scd and its affects on shark activity. To say it hasn't changed their behaviour is absolutely DUMB AS FUCK or you are in denial. Sharks never used to hang around boats as much as they do now. Fish at my local and you will see the evidence. In Africa if a lion is klling people they hunt the lion. Why does everyone think different about the GWS? What hunts the GWS? If we deplete its food sources it changes food sources. If nothing controls its population you have an increase. Go and have a look at Neptunes.. they are not an endangered species(ie rare) out there. The facts are we do not know enough about them... They are smart and do change,adapt quickly...Also @Pharmer I did not see the word 'sorry' in your previous comment to issue an apology is to say sorry.

Had a bad day today Barley? You might have noticed that the topic changed a bit which is where i chimed in.
Anyway who said it doesn't change their behaviour? Of course it will but why are all different types of sharks drawn to boats around the world in places where there is no shark diving?
In regards to their numbers what do you reckon barley? Every time someone gets bitten call Vic Hislop? Maybe catch them and relocate them to New Zealand? Maybe an arial drop of poisoned seal baits?
I reckon keep chumming hopefully it will attract them from other states and condense them in SA.
South Australia..... testimony that Tasmanians can swim.

Great discussion guys
OK I worked chuming up for these Great fish for 3.5 years,
In approx 400 days out at sea I would say I seen just over 150 differnt pointers.
The company tagged approx 20 while I was onboard and over the time I worked we only had visits from CSRIO marine biolagists approx 3 times.
The sharks Know certin feeding spots around the globe and memororise there positions for future use. White sharks eat Seals that live at certian Islands. They usally stay on the bottom but will surface to feed if they can see food. You could spend days out at Neptunes and not see a single pointer but add some food and they will come to investigate a easy meal.
The sharks visit these Islands no doubt through out there lives just like we would return to a good restraunt after good service,I think there are some companys that actully show a intrest in the sharks but also some operators that are just in it for the money.....
Anyway now Im happy to take the tender over to a tropical reef and see all the little reef fish come up to smile for a free feed of bread that the other operators have feed them!! ..... Im going diving! peace down deep!

Read the book, and recommend it to anyone with an interest in Sharks and entering the water, Its co author gives a visual impression of the Fox, similar to the one in my memory. The jurys still out on wether the fox has learnt from his mistakes and matured over the years, and truly does have preservation in mind, or has just found an easier way of exploiting the ocean.
knocking off abolone 1000 pounds a day, 8 hrs a day, for god knows how many years is not without its detrimental effects on the ocean, let alone the human body. The Fox knew this aswell as he knew you need to add chum to bring in the GWS.
Either way the guys a nutter!!, back in the water spearfishing within 3 mths, Spearfishin lost its popularity and the fox wanted the trophys on the wall, and went on a revenge style massicare with his new favourite toy the powerhead. free diving, hunting every know gutter to claim another set of jaws and filming it all. he even jumped overboard at dangerous reef while several GWS were in a frenzy to powerhead one on film!! a complete nutter. the book has other great tales in the fox's own words.
As for the type of shark. that bit him, the pharmer has his doubts, take out the gorry photo, its a closed case, even in the book in his own words the fox isn't convinced or is unbelievably surprised, and theres no mention of the tooth in his hand? I guess you'll have to read the book and compare it to his updated version which i intend on doing.

here is a few points to consider, The fox in his own words says the sharks bottom jaw clamped right around his back, the front jaw pressed into his chest, therefore the gory photo is the damage created by the sharks bottom jaw, look closely, (1975 photo in book) the wounds look to me to be slice marks of the shark clamping down on a moving target, picture it in your mind, the fox is gliding through the water, descending to make his hit on the fish, somehow the sharks bottom jaw clamps around his back?? hits him like a train and drags him through the water, yet somehow the GWS top jaws dont penetrate his chest?? Razor sharp longer teeth that crushed his ribs they struck with such force, ?? closer examination shows this GWS is missing a tooth around the shoulder blade?, the scar shows this also, perhaps its his ski rope attached to his bouy with his already speared fish that caused this inconsistency? when i picture the fox underwater, it appears he was dive bommed by the GWS and it turned sideways just before it struck? how else would its bottom jaw clamp around his back? Rods left arm was pinned and he reached around with his right arm to try to gouge it in the eye? the GWS released its grip and instinctively he pushed at it with his right hand that went into the monster mouth,twisting, causing the deep laserations on his left arm?? The fox then lifted his right arm up above the lower jaw up enough to miss the razor sharp teeth and scrapped in on the upper jaw? better than losing an arm in his words?? is this when the diamond stenght tooth broke off and lodged in his hand?? Later in the book the fox describes seeing his first GWS underwater, alone, years later than his aldinga. attack?? didnt he count the one that attacked him or the one that attacked Bruce Farley, that circled him to within. two. feet?? the first words that. come out. of the fox's mouth was bronze whaler??. which in my personal expierences are quite easy to identify even with out googles on as they have a copper colour appearance??? Please explain Mr Fox, or sharkman?? prove to the pharmer that its preseravation you have in mind, and not you trying to eliminate the competion of SCD, and you dont have to find another way to exploit the ocean for your own greed. Is it you dont want the GWS extinct? protecting your income. just as you did with you1 abalone bed when others followed in the spencer gulf by contacting fisheries to put restrictions on abalone divers? the pharmer hasn't even started on your updated. version in your book sharkman, and the pharmer still believes a GWS would hav bit a great chunck of your torso right off with one bite. to other poster, all sharks have cottened on to food around boats with burley being used over the years, who doesnt enjoy a free feed??

does anyone else get the feeling that pharmer may be related to blasphemy rottmouth.....

Get over the Fox thing dude it happend like over 20yrs ago I have worked with him and he tells the same story he has been since the attack he is actully a nice bloke!, Im sure it was a White but really who cares if it was a Big Bronze whaler. Some Whites are aggresive some are quite placid they have personality like dogs. they also have random feeding plans some return the following year some dont. Fish do have memorys and will visit a area if they know theres food on demand.
I have seen many pointers from a cage and looked them in the eye.obviouslly they dont make friends with us and as far as they are concerend if they are hungry and want to eat us they will maybe we are in there food chain what or who makes us so invinsible!!

was 1963 i think, so after nearly 50 years.......all of a sudden its a conspiracy of some sort ? ? ? and no other person on this planet has picked up on it ?

The CIA is funding Rodney Fox's cage diving to boost the U.S. Great White Shark products trade? Is the Pharmer... Clive Palmer?

@pharmer, did you know that rodney fox was questioned over the dissapearance of HAROLD HOLT.

@ victor, just because you write in CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make it funny...

Point taken Southace, it dosnt matter to most, I hope Rod has changed, i can see the change happening in the 1975 book. let me add, most of the words i used are straight from the book and are directed straight at Rod himself, he would know that. Im only using the facts he wrote in it, understandably he could have got it wrong, it was horrific. Add that to my firsthand expierences with Rod, you might get where i am coming from. Yes i should have started a different thread to debate the type of shark, perhaps i will if there is anyone interested. Rod in my mind probably does know more about GWS than any man on the planet. you say he is a nice bloke, i take your word on that and dont doubt but it doesn't mean what he did in the past should be forgotten.
@ victor, my guess is there is a lot of media in the archives about shark attacks at Aldinga, 3 in 1 year. 1 fatal , perhaps. you should check it out,, you seem interested in the type of shark. Im certain you will find someone who heard it wasn't a GW. not everyone reads swellnet forums. I just dont believe everything im tild or see in photographs. i like to look at the evidence myself and if i have my doubts, re examine it, make my own personal assumptions, just as i have done in this forum.
to go out with a bit of tounge in cheek arrogance,
' How appropriate, the pharmer got the fox'

Rodney fox reports the first ever tumour seen on a white shark , pt Lincoln times, and live science has a better pic of it, and a bit about the ' shark no cancer' myth

Here it is Udo: http://www.portlincolntimes.com.au/story/1978868/first-tumour-detected-o...

Since we are talking sharks again this is an interesting piece
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-22/fact-file-protecting-people-from-s...

......but it raises the question; if culling sharks by baited drumlines causes ecological damage then we should be able to detect this in Queensland and in South Africa. If there is no evidence of changes in fish stocks or other significant environmental factors in those areas compared to control areas without baited drumlines then it is quite possible that they provide protection without damaging the marine environment.
I am not suggesting that this must be the case, only that emotion influences both sides of this debate and those putting the case against culls and drumlines have to be prepared to put up their evidence, not simply make unsupported assertions and inferences. It would seem quite possible to me that the removal of large species with a history of human attacks may simply increase the population of other species using the same resources but with less tendency to attack humans.

Thanks for the link benski. My main point, which the paper largely backs up, is that the science on the issue is weak and most of the things those on the conservation side are saying are inferences based on generalisations, which may or may not apply in those particular ecosystems. Since they base some of their argument on commercial fish stocks perhaps catch data could be useful.
I don't live in the high risk areas so I can afford to stay fairly neutral. I am sympathetic to both positions. The precautionary principle cuts both ways here so there's no avoiding the issue there. Hopefully a better understanding of shark behaviour and new technologies for detecting them will make the debate redundant, but I can't see it happening quickly.

An interesting paper Benski. Where do humans fit into the eco system? Mesopredators... Our technology (weapons, fishing nets etc.) allows us to take a position higher in the chain if you ask me where would we sit without them?The human body is not equipped to be an apex predator on land let alone in water.

I agree blindboy the science is weak with regards to marine specific, but the paper is also putting a good case forward that in a majority of ecosystems, reducing an apex predators numbers has a direct impact on an ecosystem that isn't "bottom to top" The range of study's conducted displayed in the tables seem to pinpoint pretty well the effects removing apex predators has on population of the mesopredator.

The paper does make note however that the marine ecosystems are not understood greatly and this seems to be the consensus of the wider scientific community.

Its' important to also realise the opinions and "tales" of fishermen and surfers are just that and while they should be taken into consideration there is a vast difference in knowledge gained from "conclusive scientific data" to Bob down at the wharf who reckons theirs more whites now then there was 30 years ago.

I try not to dismantle complex items i have zero to very little knowledge about as i've learnt it usually ends in said item no longer working and i can only hope that the people who are making the decisions regarding such a fragile environment make a decision based on facts and not emotions.

G'day rees0, blindboy

Weak seems such a pejorative word to me. I'd choose uncertain because the science is actually pretty strong around predator-prey interactions and how the removal of a top predator can impact lower trophic levels. These are processes that occur across ecosystem types and are therefore quite general, which is what makes the science quite strong. Obviously each system will have its own points of difference, which can't be ignored, but we know that removal of a predator blows out the next trophic level - what that does down the line becomes more difficult to say but based on evidence from multiple systems we could have a pretty good guess. That's before we even look at the marine literature specifically.

I'm not a marine ecologist so I don't know that area particularly well but I highlighted that paper because it's a synthesis paper and identifies a general principle that can be used when data on a specific system is lacking. A quick search threw up this paper which is a similar one from the same journal, but focused on shark removal. It actually cites data from the netting programs of the Kwa-Zulu Natal and Queensland coasts, as well as fishery data.
ftp://swfscftp.ucsd.edu/users/hdewer/papers/Endnote/Ferretti_consequence...

It's long and dense (I only scanned it) but it highlights what is known and what is very uncertain, pretty well. It has similar conclusions to the last one but might be of interest.

blidnboy, catch data are used quite a bit in these kinds of studies but it has an inherent bias too of course, there's a very influential paper (that I had forgotten about) by Ransom Myers et al in 2007, specifically using catch data - www.cof.orst.edu/leopold/class-reading/Myers et al 2007.pdf

But yeah, we know that removing apex predators is going to have an effect. We know that because it applies to all ecosystems. We know that applies to sharks in general too. How much of an effect in a specific system (i.e. south west WA) requires research that may or may not be possible (whether due to funding limitations or system ones) but we have a pretty good idea that taking out sharks will affect the ecosystem and may very well affect important fisheries. Obviously we have to make the decision while understanding the uncertainties that are there.

PS. rees0, humans? Meso-apex-predatory-selective-disturbance-agents...maybe? :-)

Thanks for the links benski . The second one won't work for me but the first is spot on and is pretty much what I was interested in. The South African evidence is fairly convincing for significant impacts. It is always good to see some real data!

Thanks benski, the second one is also useful.

'Its' important to also realise the opinions and "tales" of fishermen and surfers are just that and while they should be taken into consideration there is a vast difference in knowledge gained from "conclusive scientific data" to Bob down at the wharf who reckons theirs more whites now then there was 30 years ago.'

Sometimes 'Bob' is much, much more informed, and vastly more knowledgeable than 'the conclusive scientific data'. A classic example occured in Elliston. I was the local council area rep for the Eyre Regional Development Board. I started to pick quandongs when we saw a guy in Quorn was farming them and eventually found out that Beerenburg jams was paying considerable money for high quality dried quandongs, that were fairly difficult to get. The CSIRO became involved, and were working to develop the 'super quandong', and continue to develop it as viable farming industry. They contacted me and wanted to set up a meeting in Elliston where all the local farmers could come and 'be educated' about quandongs, and how to grow them commercially. I convinced quite a few, extremely sceptical, local farmers to come and hear out the 'scientists'. The scientists were bringing sample stock over, that they had been developing for some time, plus samples of the 'super fruit' that they had been working on. Plus, as quandongs were 'extremely difficult to germinate and grow past seedling stage', they were going to teach the local farmers, the 'Bobs', how to do it.

Let the games begin.

Cockies are classics. One farmer had let me pick quandongs on his land for some time, and I was suddenly so interesting to Beerenburg, that the owner, Grant Paech, came to visit me in Elliston, to try and get some inside info. The farmer wasn't interested in contact. However, city 'rubber neck', government, desk jockey scientists, coming to teach the farmers, well, that was much more interesting. So, the farmers in the area picked some fruit which was in season. Kind of like the prize rams.

They let the classic 'scientists' confidently spout on for a while, on the stage of the Elliston Hall, before bursting into hysterical laughter when the 'super fruits' were produced. The farmer whose fruits I was allowed to pick, handed a bucket of his monsters up to the front, with something along the lines of 'better head on back to ya nice shiny lavoratory' young fella'. The CSIRO guys couldn't contain themselves and were frothing over the things. Like comparing peaches to mothballs. Or 120 kg Mike Tyson to a 45 kg pro surfer... ooops, sorry. Then the 'scientists' were lectured on everything about quandongs, about how they were wrong about everything that they had been babbling about, size, age, difficulty to grow, germinating methods etc. They slobbered and begged to keep the fruit and seeds, and the cockies had a ball. Their highly investigated 'brood stock' ended up in the bin out the front of the hall. They pleaded to visit the farmer's property next day, and after much convincing from me he reluctantly agreed, mostly for a bit more entertainment.

The next day, we were all standing under some huge, 100 plus year old trees, as big as the surrounding gum trees, that 'scientifically' only grew to a few metres high and lived for about 12 years. The 'scientists' were helpless, cannon fodder. They begged for some cuttings to take back for grafting, and the farmer also gave them sacks and sacks of seeds.

'Gee thanks 'Bob'.'

Meanwhile, we were trampling all over hundreds of seedlings, that the farmer complained just popped up everywhere.

'Just throw the bloody things in a pile young fella' and throw some mulch on top, and get yourself out of the way. Take as many as you want, you'll probably kill em all anyway.'

'Gee, thanks again 'Bob'.'

'Good to see me taxation bein' wasted scientifically. What was your name again?'

'Bobs' your uncle.

Ps, and I know, there are a couple of 'Pros' tipping 50 kg.

Boy oh boy uplift now you have opened a can of quandongs.......in the blue corner we have uplift and in the red corner we have...........?

They'll need a least a dozen of em to have any sort of chance.

Gidday, yeh, those bloody scientists - what would they know, eh? The local people of this wide brown land knew 40,000 years ago stuff we whiteys are just finding out now.

Of course, there are a few more of us to feed these days, but that's not the point. Let's just go back to the good ole days.

Dunno how, but let's just do it.

I've got loads of helpful ideas just like this one.

Actually, I've just got this one - I just say it lots of times in different forms.

'I've got loads of helpful ideas just like this one. '

Feeding time for the 'stray gimp'. Which one?

Still need at least a dozen though, the 'Bronzed Gimp' has been conclusively scientifically proven, and peer reviewed to count as about a sixteenth of one. No idea - s. Of course, he could be hyped up and remarketed as the 'Zomasing Great Bronzed Stray Apex Gimp' though. Which would mean that he has become a remarketed, hyped up, 'stray gimp.' Still ludicrously useless. Scientifically speaking that is.

picture a hot chick walking around ring holding up a sign with the number 2 on it....ding

And the winner is:

The future is in good hands, and this 'conclusively scientifically proves' that even Pro Surfing can be repackaged and sold.

All the best for the season uplift, but steady on for a minute while I try to get that friggin' bee out of your bonnet. You have given a great example of what happens all too frequently....bad science! Bad science occurs for a number of reasons including, as in this case, failure to adequately research your topic before designing your experimental procedure.
The thing about bad science, as you have demonstrated so well, is that it always gets exposed. It might take a while but the truth will come out in the end. I'm not going to bore you by listing science's great achievements since it is only slightly more difficult to come up with a list of its errors. The core of the problem is that science is conducted by fallible humans and so it will involve all the usual human faults, but it is the best method we have for separating the truth from the bullshit and the old wives tales.

But while you're here you might as well bring us up to date on the ecological impacts of the new baited drumline program in WA and save the scientists the bother of all that expensive research.

Gidday Blindboy, same, have a good one.

'but it is the best method we have for separating the truth from the bullshit and the old wives tales.'

Remember that post about the Sentinal Island. No science, totally different world view, and as you highlight, there they are, 2013, prospering. No prisons, no pollution, no environmental degredation, no factories, no fiscal dilemas, no labs, no overcrowded hospitals, no university fees, no westminster system, no courts, etc, etc, etc. In fact, as you highlight, when it comes to recognising our science, a resounding, no, no, no. No sale, fuck off, we have a better way, not buying. Yet, there they are, much older, much more evolved, a much, much, much longer, much, much, much more successful record than our scientific world view has produced. 'Bob's' world. We smell trouble, no entry, keep your scientific, superior, only way mess to yourselves. Will we scientifically 'fix' them. Primative losers.

There's no turning back uplift. I don't think the Sentinel Islanders are going to welcome us into their community given their attitude to other visitors. So here we are in a technological society that is running amok all over the planet and in which all traditional culture and connection to the environment has been irrevocably lost. We ride waves mate, that's what we are supposed to be good at and this is the biggest one of all, billions of people pushing into an ever more complex future. And yes there is a great loss in that process, as TS Eliot wrote,

"Where is the life we have lost in the living?
Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?"

These days he would have had to add

Where is the information we have lost in data?

Blame it on the times. Science is all we have.

very deep blindboy,but quandongs has a certain ring to it.

I will address that blindboy. i hope you have a deluxe xmas and new year. Same simba. And everyone on here. I hope you get some surf.

And if I could just add, that I'll do my very best to be a humble xmas 'Champ'.

(Its all in the angles simba. Yeh, ok, obviously plus me stick and move, combinations, amasing two fisted power. The whole frickin show really. And that bloody, pesky, musclular size... not to mention the looks.)

Thass right, peoples, you heard it first here. Science slows down evolution. Bob tole me.

merry xmas forum fanatics and swellnet,great site and mostly very enjoyable.
uplift,yeah its all in the angles alright,but dont be too humble,still a few rounds to go.

Wow, this went on a bit. Just a couple of points, uplift you're confusing science with culture. They aren't the same thing. Science is just a method of inquiry, a systematic way to gather information to learn about our surroundings. The learning will always continue as we apply the process of science to improve our understanding of things. But really, it's not that controversial nor is it exclusive.

The application of that knowledge in one way or another is a separate step and is a cultural and/or societal phenomenon. You've confused the two as one. And you're railing against the western culture of bulldoze the past and dominate the planet. That's fair enough, but it's got nothing to do with science and the process of learning.

Your story about the farmers and the CSIRO scientists is a good one and also serves to highlight one of the most common misapplications of scientific "knowledge" you see on the internet. As blindboy pointed out, the scientific process corrects previous misunderstandings and errors due to bad science. So you'll frequently see people, gleefully "demolishing" or "debunking" the myth of whatever (evolution, climate science etc) by citing one new study. A single study, while valuable, is not enough on its own to prove or disprove much. It can be but without further evaluation it's somewhat limited. It needs to be tested itself and repeated and so on. this is what makes synthesis and review papers (like those I linked above) so useful, because they are summarising hundreds of studies to identify a common theme which gets us a little bit closer to the answer of a given question (in this case, what the removal of sharks will do to an ecosystem). It also helps to weed out the poorly done science.

So in saying all that, does Bob the local fisherman have useful knowledge, of course he might depending on Bob himself. I remember a newspaper report based on a bloke saying he'd been going to the beach for 50 years and hadn't noticed any sea level rise so he reckoned it was all rubbish. That is of course complete crap due to his own misunderstanding of sea level rise forecasts. But the guy fishing who used to reel in a boat load and now doesn't get any he may well have useful information and/or knowledge. But equally he might not. Either way, expert elicitation workshops are pretty common in the research community to gather information from locals, farmers and indigenous communities on how systems operate.

Yipes, more confusion! The hallmark of western science. Oops, well yeh, that one was wrong... again. Imagine the poor ignorants that believed that last idea. We'll just issue new text books... again ( we've had lots of of practise at that), but the old degrees will still stand. Shit we just finished the last lot. The problem is benski, its impossible to seperate western science from western culture. Our method of brainwashing, 'schooling and educating' our western world view into our culture is science based. The one reason our science, our 'knowledge' is accepted, or tolerated by other Cultures, is because we butchered and oblitherated anyone who challenged or disagreed with it.

Unknowingly brainwashed devotees such as yourself, kamikazi like champion the system that you are indoctrinated in from birth, as is the case in all cultures. The difference is, there are actually other, much more developed, and successful world views, or systems of obtaining understanding. As highlighted by blindboy with his Sentinal Island discxussion. 60,000 continual years of success, on a small island, with limited resources, without any of the self created, monumental disasters we, through our blindly accepting the guidance (sic) of science, have created here in Australia in 200 years.

Yet as blindboy aptly demonstrates, part of that thorough, scientific brainwashing has programmed racial superiority into the unconscious disciples. So much so, that most consider adopting the success of the likes of of the Traditional Indigenous Australians, or North Sentinal Islanders as a step backwards, into the dark ages. Firsly, our culture has no 'backwards', no past remotely anywhere near as successful. Or long. Also, how having no pollution, no homeless, no jails, no escalating crime rate, no 'fiscal' stupidity, no Kardashians, no Iron Chef, no incubated diseases, no collapsing health system, no obesity, no unemployment, etc, etc, etc, etc is 'backwards', is the perfect example of the, 'kamikaze' scientific devotee, inspite of all around them, still feeling superior enough to guide and help other cultures.

Bob the fisherman or Nerdvar the ever bumbling scientist? When some Traditional Indigenous Australians explain their world view, which accepts beings beyond us, continually affecting us, Nerdvar gives a wry chuckle and explains:

Once upon a time, according to the Gospel of Nerdvar, approximately 13.798 ± 0.037 billion years ago, (it instantly gets ludicrous), a cloud just exploded, and turned into people and cars and 'stuff'. Where the cloud came from... why it decided to explode... and luckiest break of all time, that it turned into people...

Naturally no one wanted to know about Nerdvar, or his 'Enlightenment', so he butchered and bashed the living shit out of everyone until they did. Which he had/has a bit of a history of doing.

And so here we are today, Nerdvar is a now a shark expert. And then there's the disciples.

'Watch yourself 'Bob', we've flattened bigger cunts than you'.

Firstly, Our culture has no 'backwards', no past remotely anywhere near as successful. What would those Greeks or Romans know, eh? Or those faggot Romantic painters, or those Frog democrats? Eh?

Or as long. Of course, I'm not counting the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon man, given we're alive and doing well over here in Port Lincoln.

Secondly. Ah. Forgot.

Anyway, to sum up. History is bunk, science is crap, knowledge is overrated, insularity and feudalism is good. Evolution is just a theory, like the earth is round and orbits the sun. As if. Bring back cave dwelling, wife beating and slavery. It's the sub-starvation, pre-agricultural, nomadic life for me.

And the first kamikaze drone unconsciously flies into action, the scrawny, knotted little grimace screeching 'banzai', as he inneffectively dive bombs to doom. Taking off, heading in the wrong direction and eventually taking out a couple of boats in Sydney Harbour, ruining the greatest display of cultural genius the world has ever seen. Even the Sentinal Islanders would have felt the finale of the biggest fire cracker ever built, as seething, scrawny, brainwashed, little gatesy, running out of fuel, flew on. Heralding another even more useless year for the 'bronzed Kamikaze Gimp.

But, it gets worse, if thats possible. All this, after admitting to 'charging' 1 foot, onshore, crowded blacks, and stupidly speeding off, rushing back to tell everyone... just before the new swell hit. Only to be further ridiculed, and cementing his 'Bronzed Gimp' status.

As was the fate of all the examples given above. All perfect examples of failed cultures. The Greeks and Romans whom we so lovingly embrace and idolise, and unconsciously mimic, only lasted a short time before disastrously crashing and burning. 60,000 years of continual cultural success isn't even remotely matched.

And the bronzed, kamikaze gimp beautifully demonstrates the brainwashing effect. I might add, very easy and effective with his tiny brain. Anything that has worked so incredibly well is viewed as backwards, inferior and primitive by a brainwashed, failing culture, that tries to blow up Sydney Harbour in a display of unparallelled brilliance. The climax to the year, as all the good, little, kamikaze, unconscious, brainwashed worker drones are pacified and prepared for another productive year of toil. Who will feed the queen's corgis, and pay for Mrs obama's new dress? Will gaga marry? Sharks?

Banno's angels.

Love this stuff.........happy newyear boys.

a sticky jab........followed by a nice right cross...........and............ohhhhh thats gotta hurt a beautiful left hook to the chin and he's down.........is that the knockout blow?..........1..........2............3..........4............5.............

Thass righ folks - a cloud jest exploded and turned into people, an' cars, an' other stuff.

As if.

Science jes' "invented" us.

Ha.

Creationism 4 eva.

Another funny thing I jes noticed. Port Lincoln's a small place. There's this bloke who stalks me - hangs around the gym I work at, uses me name as his, follows me to AA meetings, listens in to phone calls wiv me parole officer - stuff like that. Believes me when I say that I surf. At Blacks no less.

Whereas in fact I'm only in me room, dreaming of getting away from it all and living in Norf Sentinel. Wonder if they'll let me bring me model trains.

hey uplift .
Darwinism ring a bell ??? AMazing thought Processes .....
Oh hang on i mentioned Bell ...
Back to the Boxing , Not sure about your angles approach .
Me I'm a Southport hence ( Southey ) , Not Hulking like yourself But FAST , and Ugly .
But unfortunately from your long oration , it seems your of a higher weight division unless you can manage a drop to Light Heavy Weight .
Until then i can organise a stand in , a family friend in the Form of the " the King " himself Wayne Carey , I believe , You believe you could teach him a thing or too . But in the circles i listen too , He's as good as it gets in the Ring .
Especially considering he IS / was still is an Elite Athlete in an Australian Sport ,
of which you don't consider worthy as your lofted American arts .
Anyway ( as usual ) I digress . He is of the Firm belief " That you go STRAIGHT & Hard up the centre in offence ...... "
Perhaps we can organise a bout in Adelaide .

Now where were we . ?
Science , oh ....
kNow nothing of the subject . please carry on

Love the passion uplift, not so sure about the argument. Lots of straw men dead in your wake but no time to answer now. I am sitting in the Dog On A Tuckerbox roadhouse on my way back to Sydney but you would have been proud of me charging 1ft Winki yesterday......it was so heavy the locals wouldn't even come out.

Great news! As we've all just learned, the 0 and 50,

'Bronzed kaaaaaamikaaaaaaaaazzzzzzeeeeeeee giiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmmppppp, gimp',

has just come to, in hospital, after suffering a 'sickening knockout' by, me. As he came to, he was screaming, flinching and trembling in terror, screeching incoherently about one foot, onshore blacks. Whilst victory is sweet, and whilst 'The Bronzed Gimp' is a professional loser, knowing full well the consequences of his profession, it is never pleasant to witness, or inflict such a horrific, prolonged battering. His record now stands at no victories and fifty one losses, all by KO.

In hospital the post fight examination revealed that he was in fact 'overtrained'. He wouldn't listen to my professional advise about overtraining, and continued to snort and grunt up a storm during training. The examination showed that he has in fact horrendously torn both nostrils. Even in his obviously rambling, incoherent, flinching state, doctors are pleading with him to once and for all retire. He is presently wandering the corridoors, heavily sedated, both nostrils stitched up, squeaking about a 'lucky punch', and suddenly screeching "Ill fuck'n get you Mr Uplift, ya big, good looking, musclebound, steroid usin', raw boned, shredding and rippin', ageless cunt!!!!'

And it appears the engines are running, and the runways are getting clogged with hell bent kamikaze drones.

And Carey would give anything to have my hair... or any for that matter.

You know that bloke who stalks me? Always referring to "we". We? We! Like he has friends! Amasing! Great imagination. Deluxe. Hilarious!!!

Just ask anyone on the West Coast. Or The Philippines.

Nuuurrrsseeee!!! We have to up the dosage!!!!

For his sake, I just hope he doesn't waste his life trying to match it with the rest of humanity - the part with synaptic brain function.

@ ego shirtlift, how old is your deluxe amasing ' visayan souvenir'

@ the gimp's sidekick, you mean my wife? More than happy to meet you, and to tell you in person, as you apologise to her.

.... and to her seeing eye dog.

Enough of this pugilist banter, onward science soldiers we have progress to make, the next thalidamide is just around the corner, perhaps behind the old Fukashima Daiichi plant. No time to lose, cant stop progress!!

ah, I see what you did there metho man. Remember its 1 tsp of metho to a full cup of OJ not the other way around

The offer is always open gateless, you know where I am, always have. As you also know too, too well, with complete, total certainty, I can and will help you end your misery. All the years, and years, and years, and years, and years, and years, and years... did I mention years, of pent up suffering and pain and years, and years, and years, and years, and years, and years, and years... did I mention years, of never ending gimping and grovelling and snivelling, will be gone in a mere nano second, if that.

Again, plug up your nostrils, puff up, psyche up, practise in the mirror, get your fellow gimps to help pump you up, affirmations, whatever it takes, and stride bravely, yet stupidly through the door.... M...M...M...M... Mr U...U...U...Mr Uplift I am the gateless wonder!!! A mere nano second, if that, to eternal peace. Or a life of even more years, and years, and years, and years, and years, and years, and years... did I mention years, of snivelling, grovelling, gimping, gateless wondering. Wonder on.

.... and to her boyfriend.

Once a gimp, always a gimp. Never in doubt.

Sir ambrose bea, bit uncalled for.....

oh gees uplift, where to begin? You've made some pretty bizarre connections that are close to nonsense. Pinning the awful things the west has done on science, which has had its place in the sun for maybe 100 years when commerce and religion have driven western culture for 2000+ years, is either odd, lazy or delusional, I can't decide which.

I'll just copy and paste some of your text and reply to it briefly.

"The problem is benski, its impossible to seperate western science from western culture."
I disagree with that. They're related sure, but like I said, science is learning, culture is applying what's known, assumed and believed in a certain way. Two different processes.

"The one reason our science, our 'knowledge' is accepted, or tolerated by other Cultures, is because we butchered and oblitherated anyone who challenged or disagreed with it."
Nope. We butchered anyone who disagreed with our religion, or got in the way of what was quaintly called "trade". Ever travelled in Africa or Melanesia? You might be surprised to know that you don't see physics buildings followed by chemistry labs, but rather Catholic churches followed by Anglican ones and Seventh Day Adventists. Religion, those people tended not to like scientists. Science had nothing to do with the horrors of colonialism and western expansion.

Our science is accepted (where it is actually accepted) because it frequently works to explain physical phenomena. Just as other knowledge is accepted across cultural boundaries when it works, like for example, acupuncture.

"Unknowingly brainwashed devotees such as yourself..."
Pretty lazy assumption that.

"The difference is, there are actually other, much more developed, and successful world views, or systems of obtaining understanding."
No shit Einstein, that's what I was talking about.

"Yet as blindboy aptly demonstrates, part of that thorough, scientific brainwashing has programmed racial superiority into the unconscious disciples."
You're off the mark there I'm afraid. Racism (and bogotry) typically comes from religious indoctrination, not science. And whenever I've seen "science" used to justify that kind of crap, it's been some goose (willfully) misinterpreting scientific research to suit their prejudice.

"inspite of all around them, still feeling superior enough to guide and help other cultures."
Again, you're outside the realm of science and into culture. You want to pin all the stupidity, arrogance and self-delusion that comes with western culture (and there's a lot of that) on the systematic process of learning that we use today. That's a nonsense. I'd say religion - you know the thing that drove us to "convert" indigenous cultures, ban surfing etc - might have more to do with it.

What you seem to also not understand, is that science by its very nature is humble not arrogant. The scientific process specifically recognises that what is currently believed to be true, might be wrong. That's fundamental to it.

So back to the relevant topic and not this sideshow, everything in the articles about predator removal that I linked above, might be wrong. I reckon it's probably not, but it might well be. Ongoing learning will show one way or the other.

But for now we gotta make decisions somehow, based on some information. Using systematically collected data is a good way to do that. Not really controversial.

Gidday benski, its too late, but I'll let you sleep on this one. And perhaps wash and iron a clean towel to throw in. I know exactly where to start.

I quote you:

'Science had nothing to do with the horrors of colonialism and western expansion.'

Yipes again, that is totally, 100% wrong. No other way to paint it. 0/100 (F - extremely poor effort, see me! Dr Nerdvar Supremocious Geeknacious.)

Darwinism was/is the driving force behind colonialism, and was/is the excuse used to attack, and decimate supposedly 'inferior' Indigenous Cultures across the globe. Darwin's 'science', bolstered 'enlightened'or western reason, further undermining and weakening religion's grip on the western world. As is the case today, religion became a useful tool for western, enlightened thinkers to pacify and control their subjects. This began way back in the Greek and Roman ''Golden Ages', but the real knockout blows to religion as all powerfull were well and truly struck in the 18th century, thanks to men of 'reason', men of the new term, 'science'. Money began to shout. People began to run, not walk.

Now even Southy gets through to the next grade, God help us. And despite conveniently, and rather suddenly, backpeddling on the supposedly extremely advantageous, lighter weight class argument, plaguing modern surfing. Tell it to those 20 foot pointers.

Oooops, sorry bensk, left out me references. Hate to miss out on another HD.

This will do, a bit of light reading for you.

https://www.google.com.au/#q=darwinism+and+colonialism

Bensk... shit, he's out cold.

Nuuuuuuurrrrsssseeee, smelling salts, quick!!!!!

Gidday Benski. Now I know you have a doctorate in a so-called "science" and probly even have a job that requires reading skills, but I reckon you need to stop thinking of evolution as an actual science supported by verifiable facts and logical arguments and to start thinking of it as a dogmatic, atheistic ideology akin to Marxism or, dare I say it, Colonialism. A social construct (whatever that is). Why? Cos I got an associate degree in Indigenous Studies, which, although really only a junior qualification in a branch of sociology, itself a quasi-scientific attempt to understand social organisation, entitles me to put myself on the same level as you, and to argue as if I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Which, I admit, I don't, because if I did, I'd realise that Darwinism is in fact, among many other things, a descriptor for the theory of natural selection. Being that "the animal species, in which individual struggle has been reduced to its narrowest limits, and the practice of mutual aid has attained the greatest development, are invariably the most numerous, the most prosperous, and the most open to further progress. The mutual protection which is obtained, the possibility of attaining old age and of accumulating experience, the higher intellectual development, and the further growth of sociable habits, secure the maintenance of the species, its extension, and its further progressive evolution. The unsociable species, on the contrary, are doomed to decay."

D'oh! That counts me out, then. Bummer.

Poor Bronzed Gimp, the medication stopped working. Punch drunk. Just an explanation of this will do.

'Science had nothing to do with the horrors of colonialism and western expansion.'

And, you supremely dimwitted, beautifully brainwashed, kamikaze, scrawny idiot:

https://www.google.com.au/#q=was+charles+darwin+a+scientist

0 and 52.

Knock yourself out... again.

I almost hate doing this blinder, but, I quote:

'Lots of straw men dead in your wake but no time to answer now. I am sitting in the Dog On A Tuckerbox roadhouse on my way back to Sydney but you would have been proud of me charging 1ft Winki yesterday......it was so heavy the locals wouldn't even come out.'

That's science for you. Should've just asked 'Bob', the local. I'll give you his number.

Hate to rub it in blinder, but 'Bob' was surfing great waves. See Southy, its all in the angles, and the timing.

Uplift .
As a Pugilist , who would you compare yourself most to ........
Personally i wish i could and have attained a likeness to William " Bendigo " Thompson .
He and I love the Story of David and Goliath . His real middle name is one for the Religious .... " they came from Judah , a long time ago ...... shadrach ........ " .......
I bet you say Casius ..... for your own self affirming reasons .....
Maybe to teach you a lesson close to home yours should be Les Darcy . Another little bloke , handing the Bigger blokes a Lesson .
Darwinism should be drawn down to the one sentence , not all that other stuff you've read into .... Its survival of the Fittest , science studying evolution ... So perhaps we don't disagree on everything ....... ( still leaves a bad taste in my mouth to let those last words spew forth ) ..... thank fuck for mouthwash .

Wait, is that it? Social darwinism and colonialism? Sorry champ but you're taking air swings.

You're missing on two fronts.

First, timing. When did the Spanish head to South America to spread Catholicism? From memory it started in 1492. They were pretty effective at wiping out a few cultures down there, you might recall. And of course they stuck around as benevolent colonial masters. No doubt the locals loved it. The Brits were more mercenary and really just wanted to "trade" with their colonies, so they were shipping slaves around and trading merrily by the 1600s. Don't forget Portugal doing the same thing in the 1600s in South America and heading to Africa. So let's go from say, 1500, give the Spanish an 8-9 year buffer, and it seems we're 360 years before Darwin published the Origin of the species when colonialism took off to decimate and convert the savages.

Pretty impressive work for a scientist to drive a colonial revolution 3 centuries before he was alive. Religion and trade were the motivating factors uplift and you're kidding yourself pinning it on a scientific explanation that came toward the end of the colonial period.

But second, to address social darwinism, the idea you're so comfortable with as an explanation for the evils of the west that you want to pin on science. Well that's pretty much a classic case in point of what I mentioned earlier. You might recall I said, "And whenever I've seen "science" used to justify that kind of crap, it's been some goose (willfully) misinterpreting scientific research to suit their prejudice."

Darwin came up with an explanation of the mechanism of biological diversity. That was co-opted and badly applied to another field, sociology and economics, by other people. As I said before, that's not the fault of science. That's the application (or misapplication) of scientific understanding by society, which is a sociological and/or cultural issue. It was an attempt to win credibility for a 300+ year old scheme that was abhorrent (colonialism) and driven by other factors. Pinning that on science? That's just lazy man, ignorant and lazy thinking.

Give yourself an uppercut once you're done congratulating yourself on your masterful air swings (I'm sure you can deliver quite a blow when you put your mind to it).

quick edit. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of scientists who have been dead set bastards. And clearly there have been mistakes made by scientists driven by arrogance, stupidity, naivety, bad luck and bad practice. Humans are fallible. But yeah, you're raging against a culture, not a system of learning.

I've had enough of this now. I doubt very much you'll change your view anyway because you seem too invested in the "fight". I'm not very interested in that kind of discussion so I'll leave you in peace mate. Flail away.

stray-gator, my reading skills are pretty average so I'm not even sure what to make of your post. But we're all lemmings in one way or another aren't we?

uplift I applied my scientific skills of analysis to the surf situation earlier in the day. The Winki session was a window of opportunity thing for old time's sake.

welly I have to say Dr Karl annoys the living shit out of me. It's partly a personality thing but I also have doubts about his credibility from time to time. You can simplify things so far as to make them wrong!

great story wellymon, a small bit of trivia while where off topic and on the subject of Walt Disney and lemmings. The common belief that lemmings are predisposed to following each other suicide style off a cliff is a story invented by Walt Disney.

ooops, that'll teach me to read through the threads properly!! the story is even better knowing that. Trying to get back close to topic I saw this today -http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/01/01/258670211/more-tha...

'Kamikaze zombies never sleep 2' Now playing.

It appears the brainwashing has been so successful that the kamikaze zombies were shuffling about all night, driven by unconscious forces.

The shock of benski having to throw the towel in was too much, for him and the rest of them.

'I've had enough of this now.' 'I felt they stopped it too early though, despite smashing his fists to bits with me 'ed me trainer, the Bronzed Gimp, threw it in'.

No doubt, because in the post fight breakdown, this, the ultimate bungle, won't go away, the dropping of the gloves and showboating leading to the KO.

Benski's, last, fatal 'move':

'Science had nothing to do with the horrors of colonialism and western expansion'.

Indigenous Australians were dispossessed, had their land stolen, because of colonialism. Not all colonialism happened before religion lost its use as a tool for dispossession... as I point out. You merely highlight what I had already said. Colonialism exploded and reached its peak, through the use of its new brainwashed 'tools' in town, kamikaze scientists. The 'Brenski Beaten'. Science classified Traditional Indigenous Australians as less than human, which was needed to enforce 'Terra Nullius', the lie used to steal the land. The powers to be fostered and allowed science to run amock, to further the quest for colonialism, or greed, power and resources.

A couple of the thousands of easy to find quotes from scientists, used to propel and justify colonialism at that time.

Scientist Alfred Russel Wallace (co originator of evolution and natural selection, and champion of Darwins, 'Origin of the Species'):

“more intellectual and moral [European people] must displace the lower and degraded races.”

Yet, demonstrating the power of unconscious conditioning in saying this, Wallace at the same time warned of the dangers of corrupt powers using Darwin's version for 'colonialism', which became a polite way of saying 'genocide'.

The Darwinian scientist, Oscar Peschel said:

“decline of the Tasmanians should be viewed as a geological or paleontological fate: The stronger variety supplants the weaker.”

This is a good summary.

http://www.harunyahya.com/en/Books/971/the-disasters-darwinism-brought-t...

Another simple one, relating to that, the 'Imperialist era of 'colonisation'.

http://pablosorigins.blogspot.com.au/2009/12/racism-and-darwinism.html

Again, I pointed out, and as the defeated brenski highlights, although the Romans and Greeks used and constructed a new 'religion' which later colonists also used, to justify and control their conquests, they were also in the process of replacing it, religion, through 'reason'. Which, when the timing was right, they did.

Only the totally brainwashed and naive kamikaze believes that his science is free from, and seperate to the shaping, and control of culture. Education. All are subject to enforced, government controlled, 'education' policies. The mold. Science is driven by goverments. Food Pyramids. Obesity. Run its course, plenty of money made, sprung, a nation of fattest ever fatties? Easy fixed, turn it upside down, 'prove' this one, faze it out, but slowly, so they don't notice. Yes, here's the funding. No money, no NASA. Government.

Then there's the attached culture, the religion of science. The 'Piltdown' effect. 'Proving' pure bullshit, 'peer reviewed', because, as the highest, naturally chosen ones, we can't be wrong. Easy fixed, phase it out, they'll never know the difference.

And that island. 60, 000 years. 2014, and so much more successful than our 'scientific' world view. Backwards, fuckers. Well 'get em', we'll save em' eventually. Their just lucky. Backwards primitives. Lazy too. Haven't got two cents to scratch their arses with.

So, the two broken kamikaze zombies, the Bronzed Gimp, and his new sidekick Brenski Beaten are out of action. KO'd.

Personally, I'm more worried about southo. The despicable term 'sleeper' springs to mind. The ultimate brainwashing technique. The ultimate, kamikaze drone. Just the mere mention of the word 'science', and he's suddenly switched on, blabbering about Darwinism, up all night shuffling mindlessly, dry reaching, spewing, driven by unseen, unconscious forces, unconsciously grasping and pleading for help from 'big heavy guys'... a man on, who (certainly not him at this point) knows what mission. The 'wild colonial' surfer?

And I worry about blinder too. Again, the mere mention of the word science, and he finds himself mindlessly, unconsciously, zombie like driven to surf 1 foot waves, half way across the land, on a mal no doubt (The Bronzed Gimp is different, he lives for it). Having mindlessly shuffled halfway across the country he wakes up in the middle of nowhere chanting to and clinging to a colonial icon.

The brainwashed, kamikaze, zombie march has begun.

The finale? Here ya go lads, 25 footer ya say... not possible. Anyway, just put this on, and it wont come near ya. And if it does happen to, just remember, don't attack it until it attacks you. Or we'll fine you. A study said...

Not on my WATCH Uplift .........

www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153672410620725&set=a.181986230724.264...

No its not me ...... but sign of things to come ! If it is credible then its the First .

Some gene pools need more chlorine. Others need permanent lifeguards for the unwary. And a minority should just be backfilled and concreted over.

There's a protest against WA's handling of the situation and 'culling' planned right across the country at the same time tomorrow.

More details here: https://www.facebook.com/events/750450771649301/?ref_newsfeed_story_type...

Sorry don't know where the main page is, just the South Oz one.

uplift is there any straw left in SA? The way you go through it building and knocking down those straw men the stock will be left starving. So science and culture interact? Well thanks for the news genius, a few hundred years after the main discussion but better late than never. Wow and what an intellectual feat, discrediting the personal opinions of a couple of 19th century scientists without addressing the substance of their discoveries, could be your best work yet!
More seriously uplift, I don't think you are going to find anyone to disagree with your analysis of the misuse of science, though you did miss the worst 20th century examples. The real issue though is if we reject science how do we solve the problems we face? You can't do this retrospectively, as in hang on a minute we will just duck into the Tardis and rearrange the past. It has to be what do we do now to minimise climate change, feed a growing population, preserve biodiversity and so on. The solutions that worked for 60,000 years are not going to work now with the increase in population and the massive ecological changes unleashed by European colonisation. The same equation applies everywhere. It might not be the world you wanted but it's the one we have.
Science can be misused so it is part of our duty as citizens to make value judgements about the research we (one way or another) fund. Similarly poor science needs to be discredited and the non-science that makes up most of what is published in mass media should be disregarded.
Now, most seriously of all, you accused me of riding a mal, withdraw that remark or I am on my way to Port Lincoln to wallop you at tiddlywinks.

Blindboy,quandongs at 30 paces at sunrise...loser must body surf blacks on dusk.

'Some gene pools need more chlorine. Others need permanent lifeguards for the unwary. And a minority should just be backfilled and concreted over. '

And some just produce helpless, eternally and ever more terrified, frustrated gimps.

Southor the link doesn't work.

'Well thanks for the news genius, a few hundred years after the main discussion but better late than never.'

'Genius', yes, I agree with you.

Its called 'rope the dopes' blinder, a drawn out, exciting finale technique us big guys use. However, to answer southo, I'm not like Ali, even though as you've seen I can easily adopt his methods. Its probably obvious by now, that I'm actually a Seagal type, handling packs of ludicrous buffoons with a bemused, yet subtle smile, and nonchalant demeanour. As you've witnessed, I effortlessly glide and prance about, quickly turning the buffoons enthusiastic stumblings into greatly magnified, deadly blows against them. Admittedly, and, as you observed, I take my time, and allow them to get up a few times, to savour the fun of hurling them about like straws.

Someone, I can't really remember, I think it was Pete T, maybe Jervis... or was it Caml, once called me 'a good looking, muscle bound weapon of mass destruction'. Actually come to think of it, it was 'spongebob', the king of selfies, (Pete will dispute that though) Heidi Van Vanity. And now its intereresting to see that he has learn't the error of his ways and has ditched the toast in favour of standing up. The crab stance is alive and well.

'I don't think you are going to find anyone to disagree with your analysis of the misuse of science, though you did miss the worst 20th century examples. '

What would have been the better way to use science's conclusion that Indigenous Australians weren't human?

The other acts were horrific, but the brainwashing has worked very well indeed. What happened to Traditional Indigenous Australians is unparallelled. The unmatched, extremely prolonged, relentless treatment as animals, and subsequent unsuccessful attempts to exterminate them as 'vermin', then 'breed' them out of exsistance are watered down, whitewashed, and hidden in our 'colourfull history'. Pretty much unaided, they managed to survive even that. No treaties, no surrender. And live with the perpetuated lie. Science of the shambs.

A cunning ploy blindo, but southerly couldn't contain himself and let the cat out of the bag. You two can read and preach the bible all you like, and wander zomby like in the winderness practicing making slings and flinging tiddly winks at large objects for ever and a day.

As for the mal scenario, I need peer reviewed, published scientific evidence.

uplift, you are still focused on the past. Now it can be fun to glance over your shoulder for a second but the question remains, if we don't trust science how do we manage the future.

Love to do the mal study, a funding application is in the mail. Given the time frame and the difficulties involved a million should let me make a start.

'if we don't trust science how do we manage the future. '

Again, as the Traditional Indigenous Australians demonstrated, and the Sentinal Islanders demonstrate, there are other extremely successful ways of aquiring knowledge, and doing things. Ever heard of Fred Gratzon?

Jonathan Livingston .... the name Uplift is dead to me .
Please tell me you sport one of those " Michael Bolton " ponytails that will just make all your fanciful self important stories " that much " better ... He's obviously put in the hard yards dodging wannabe Ninja's for stealing and trying to teach back to them their culture .... but the rest of his shit is Pure Fiction for the lens .
Stop pushing the Indigenous barrow please . I'm certain they don't need you supporting their cause .

Fiction? Thats a bit harsh.

I thought it was raining, and I looked out the window and it was just a couple of little interstate cunts flinging bits of coloured plastic everywhere. Poor bastards, looks like they both did their backs in and collapsed mid fling.

And Uppity befriends Chiang who teaches him to move throughout the universe at will.

Uppity's protégé, Fletcher Lynd Seagull becomes the teacher leaving Uppity free to teach other flocks. Uppity returns one day to the Breakfast flock.

"Do you want to fly so much that you will forgive the Flock, and learn, and go back to them one day and work to help them know?"

Uppity, you don't strike me as a kind of tubby, pony-tail sporting, brooding seagull.

Sorry zeno, I was busy splinting up the two interstate guys, and steering them in the direction of the airport.

I'm the muscular, modern, eyes, on the future version. So 'they' say.

Oh, that one. My mistake.

Well carry on then.

Bloody hell, sorry again zenner, I've been busy converting a suprise attack from another angle into a piece of devastating poetry in motion.

OK, but, I'm going to the gym. Something, call it a 'sixth sense', tells me I need to get bigger. If you can believe its possible. 'Wordy' has it the two interstaters snuck out one of those little air vents at the airport.

southey, or should I say 'Judo Gene LeBell' ive heard you speak of Segal's fictitious ramblings before

this ones really hotting up, should be a great bout!

Thank goodness you said bigger.

For a minute there I thought you were going to say omnipotent.

'Thank goodness you said bigger.'

'For a minute there I thought you were going to say omnipotent.'

No need to state the obvious. Its one of those Seagul things I do. Concentrated flow.

Join in, shed a tear, flow... grow because of me. You needn't, welly actually, you can't understand. But you'll be a bigger man for it. Don't thank me just accept, its your party now little friend, cry if you want to.

Someone who aims at nothing is sure to hit it.
:)........
Bemusement in a pool full of conjecture.

'Someone who aims at nothing is sure to hit it.
:)........
Bemusement in a pool full of conjecture.'

Right on welling.

Notice the bemusement quickly becomes a steely, focused flow. Deadly. Also notice the 'ponytail' southo. But, as I said you can't understand.

Seagal actually borrowed a few tricks.

Science is just the little guy blindboy. There is something vastly bigger. Some people, in fact some whole cultures have focused on that, with spectacular results. Science can't grasp it, can't measure it, so tries to dismiss it, put it out of mind. Then runs amock, ignoring the ever growing mess. Part of the mess is falling in love with it, identifying with it.

Its so simple really, like personal training. You need to look back, to clarify, isolate the part to ditch.

'Bung knee, fucked this, fucked that.'

'This is exactly what you did to get here. So, good, this is what you need to lose to get out of here. So we'll do something completely different.'

'I gotta do me yoger.'

'But your back's fucked?'

'No its not!!!!'

'Welly, lift this then.'

'I can't'. It hurts!'

So simple, but at the same time it can literally get harder than holding someone down and cutting their leg off.

Thanks for solving our global problems uplift. Something bigger but completely undefined except in metaphorical relationship to personal training. So it's some zen koan or something? We wait in high anxiety for you to reveal more of the mystical wisdom of the ages.

Pleasure blinder.

Now we're getting somewhere. How can having the unparalleled success of Traditional Indigenous Australians, and the North Sentinal Islanders, or a Fred Gratzon type create anxiousness, resistance, stress?

Lose the anxiousness. At least some of it. Let go of your science, despite what you cling to, its not all you've got, all there is. As is easy to see, as easy as seeing the endless, ludicrous, self perpetuating, bungling scenario that is present science, there are other, incredibly successful ways of living. Welly, easy to see, without the shades.

'Stop pushing the Indigenous barrow please . I'm certain they don't need you supporting their cause .'

And southerly, lots of experience over a long time frame has shown me that many Indigenous Australians request, and love people appreciating and helping their cause, rather than whitewashing it.

http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p775/Uplifted/Nunga2_zps182f3c8f.jpg

http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p775/Uplifted/Yamatji_zps92fc68dd.jpg

Someone bring me a (photo) bucket, quick.

Good work Bourne

Very uplifting

Your next mission.........

Yep , JLS i can see the inner balance the Ponytail gives you to attack such heavy power lifts .

http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Uplifted/media/Betsy20001_zps680af887....
AMASING..... quite the looker you are ...
Oh , and i wasn't being Negative of our Indigenous brothers , was just sick of the repetition that you were using . But i obviously forgot thats what you excell in " Repetitions " ........

Lost me there uplift, your personal qualities have never been in doubt or our conversations would never have gone on so long. Similarly I would hope you recognise that I acknowledge the great achievement of indigenous peoples in living in such harmony with their environment over such an extended period.
You rightly point out that this is something no "civilisation" has ever achieved, but none of this deals with the central question of what do we do now? My point is that science is about all we have, traditional culture cannot, in my understanding, help us deal with problems arising from our misuse of technology. If it can, now is the time to spell it out in plain language. Keep up the great community work!

That wasn't supposed to be there southy, but deluxe that it is. Amasing that lady took six months to totally change. No one would train her.

http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p775/Uplifted/Uplift%20Results/Resul...

Best of all, I had her eating eggs, steaks, butter and cream. The 'experts' had her on usual fruit debacle, as she got worse before their eyes, and freaked when she told them the 'plan'. Her radical 'bad' cholesterol levels plummeted. Sugar. Plus, some other more intangible, probably more important factors.

Blindboy, I will answer properly. For now, its not so much the culture that will save us, its what the culture, and the likes of Gratzon managed/manage to access. It solves the greatest mistake in western thinking, which actually has everythiing back to front. Hence, what seems to initially be 'ingenious', soon creates perpetuating problems. The best thing is, accessibility never changes, only the will to, or focus does.

What and absolute load of shit this thread has become by people who like to hear themselves talk wank and delude themselves that they are intelligent or have something intelligent to say.

cool down firey your getting a bit hot under the collar.....chill everythings fine.

No Firey , I wear headphones while i wank to the point , for all intent and purpose of deluding Myself .....
As for JLS , he just wanks publicly and often ...

lashings of satire indeed.

Good on ya soufey... that took guts mate!

I know all about sharks, more than anyone on here. Let me tell you why.
So one day I go into Elly pub, everyone was pleased to see me, girls trying to chat me up and guys I don’t even know trying to buy me beers. Amasing stuff. Anyway I let Bob buy me a beer and he tells me about this crazy scientist that come into town and trying to tell the kids at the school that their are 3 theirs. There, their and they’re. I said bullshit their all the same word, they sound exactly the same he’s just making up 2 extras and changing the spelling. Bob says “that’s what I thought too, but I wasn’t sure, but I knew you would know the right answer.”
So I go straight down to the school to see this csiro science man from the big smoke.
“what’s this I hear about you trying to brainwash the kids around here with 3 different theirs?”
“I’m just teaching them the differences between there, their and they’re. English is a complicated language”
“Their is only one their. Their all the same. Don’t try and confuse these kids with your scientific terms such as nouns, verbs or possessive adjectives.”
“They are not scientific terms, and I’m not a scientist. I’m a teacher.”
“All you scientists are the same, just ask the indigenous people of this country. They were going just deluxe for 60,000 years and then you came along.”
“ummm… I’m not sure what you are talking about”
“Well let me tell you. This fat chick came to me, none of you so-called expert scientists could help her, had her on all sorts of crazy low-fat diets but she still put on wait. Hilarious. So I “trained” her hard for 12 weeks (if you know what I mean ;)), had her eating a dozen boiled eggs a day, duck fat and a couple of big macs. Look at these 2 photos. Before and after. Now try and tell me I don’t know about quandongs”
“quandongs??… Uhh.. anyway she doesn’t really look much different and why is she holding that newspaper. Isn’t that what they do with hostages in south America??”
“ohhh so now you’re an expert on the health and fitness industry are you?!? The newspaper shows how long it was between the before and after shot. And don’t believe anything you hear about me holding fat chicks hostage and me making them eat eggs and cream”
“Well actually it doesn’t prove anything. I think you’ve been watching too many Hollywood movies. You could keep a newspaper from today and use it 6 months later for your after photo. The only thing it proves in the movies is that the person was alive as of that date, not how fit they are or how much they weigh, besides you can’t even read the dates in your photos.”
“Look you scrawny little gimp scientist, you know nothing about fitness, I’m the best basketballer in Elliston and pro surfers aren’t even fit, did you even see the pipe final JJF and Kelly, and one time Maurice and wayne came to town, another time kango and rabbit did too and I showed them all. It was amasing. So I’m telling you the composition of this chicks blood changed don’t even worry about the newspapers in the photos.”
“Wait.. who is JJF, Kelly or maurice? And what do they have to do with me teaching children correct grammar?? And whilst I’m not a scientist, it seems you have something against scientific process yet you claim to have changed the composition of this “fat chicks” blood by “training” her hard. How exactly did you measure that?”
“By tasting it of course, here look at these 2 photos. Before and after. Fat chick in the back ground holding a newspaper. That’s me in the front tasting her blood. See my thumbs down. Now in this one. Thumbs up!! See you wimpy little expert scientists don’t know everything. Now let me tell you about sharks…..

......grog-an breaks from the pack and leads by a couple of lengths, uplift is struggling with the pace heading into the last (?) lap.

this is a marathon not a sprint,uplifts pacing himself...

Very bemusing simba. But the most most bemusing part is how you always pop up with a 1 or 2 liner trying to suck updraft off, either right before or right after he posts...

Have another snort groges.

ouch....sorry grog on ill stand in the naughty corner for 3 minutes.

Oh yeh, and I'm groges and I had a snort, and then I had a snort, and then I had a snort and then, I had a snort and then I ran out...

Hey, I'm groges, and here I am again, I scored! An me and The Bronzed Gimp are back... and we had a snort, and we had a snort, and we had a snort, and we had a snort, and then we ran out...

For most of human civilization, the pace of innovation has been so slow that a generation might pass before a discovery would influence one's life or culture, or the conduct of nations.

For Cro-Magnon man, make that millennia.

"My brain hurts, Dad."

"Shut up, kid, and keep bailing. The Phillipines here we come. See you soon, Princess".

And, Simba, shit or get off the bucket.

Ahahaha, poor old brainless updraft. King of the comeback! Got nothing.
As they say, if brains were dynamite, you couldn't. Blow your nose.

Try blowin' out, not in groges, come on down, bring The Bronzed Gimp. Coupla more snorts, you's can do it!!!

One of the major misconceptions about Traditional Indigenous Australians, is that they just passively adapted to whatever the environment dished up. This isn’t at all true, and they actually dramatically altered the environment in a way that fostered life. Then it was made sure that every member of society understood their extremely important place and role in the scheme of things. Our society still tends to swallow the ‘noble savage’ tripe, rather than acknowledge and admit that.

Traditional Indigenous Australians were masters of manipulating the environment. The classic example is in the Byron Bay area, where many people envision, and long to the return of a ‘tropical paradise’ jungle style scenario. When in fact the landscape before western invasion, like many areas, had large areas of cultivated and tended grassy plains, etc, ideal for fostering the Traditional lifestyle. Fire was a much understood and used tool, and its use over a prolonged period not only affected plant life, but animal life too. Even today many Indigenous Australians wonder why we create and allow the scenario for rampant, out of control bushfires to occur over and over again.

The method of obtaining this extremely successful wisdom is different to our ‘scientific’ viewpoint, which is a separatist world view, an outsider looking in viewpoint. Traditional Indigenous People used a holistic view, sensing, believing, and so experiencing that they were a part of the whole, and utilising that. So, in that world view, information is all around, all that’s needed is the asking, and the ability to listen. All is intimately related, alive, filled with the essence of life. Everything contains knowledge, guidance, Spirit. You just have to ask. The big picture. We on the other hand, experience some things as ‘alive’, some as ‘dead’. We see ourselves as separate to what we experience and examine. The stunted view. Unable to experience the big picture. When we grab at small pieces of the puzzle, more often than not, as our record so dramatically demonstrates, it doesn’t fit. Cane toads. Want an easy, advanced, modern life? No worries, we’ll just work more and more, day and night, to get it. And when it costs too much, we’ll work even more. Or force someone else to.

But in our culture some people do try and connect holistically. Like Fred Gratzon types. Or these people.

http://www.findhorn.org/aboutus/vision/history/#.Usu6Y_vy6t9

The results can be amasing, defying belief. We understand little about the mind. Savants show the unbelievable capabilities of consciousness. The power of focus.

We know that sharks are scared of killer whales, simply because killer whales can, and do kill them. We know some people can hold off sharks with a certain attitude, focus, whilst others attract them with a certain attitude and focus. The infamous South African guy often has to get between sharks and photographers when they lose it.

Results are all that matter in the end. You don’t need a test to tell you that you are sick, or well, if you are in tune with yourself. I ate 2 dozen eggs a day for years, still about a dozen at 60. Because of the results. If you want to know the answer to a question, the answer is always in reach. The big picture is all around us and through us. Bigger than our physical senses can measure. And smaller too. That lady in the news item was terrified to eat what I advised, but tried because of some results she’d seen. She chose to get tested. In the end, there was no need. She just felt good. That eating style might not work for all, but the answer of what will is there in reach, and will come with focus.

One thing Traditional Indigenous Australians noticed about the western invaders, as did some other cultures, that also witnessed the wholesale, manic destruction, is the inability to stop thinking, to sit still. Manic. So many ever changing questions. So the answer is never heard. Even if its shouting at us. Instead of mastering the conscious mind, using it to focus, and then silencing it to hear the answer, which comes from the unconscious, then focusing it to create the answer, the big picture, always asking every time we need to, listening every time we need to, we lose control of it, the conscious mind. The computer takes over the earth. So we lose touch with our self, the big picture. Practise makes perfect, either way.

I believe that if its truly pressing, if someone truly wants to know how to deal with sharks, then just ask the big picture. And listen for the answer. Focus on and meditate on the question. Just ask. Even a rock will do. Then just listen.

An answer often given by some much, much more successful Cultures than ours, and one that infuriated most of the invaders. And still does. But then, there’s that track record. Easy fixed. Write ’history’, photo shop it, retouch it a bit. Digital enhancement.

‘I’ll focus on me breath... shit where’s the fuck’n new binaural dolphin cd... fuck is that the time... shit me ipod’s fucked, ooooooooommmmmmmm... mmmmmyyyyyyy God, the fuck’n banks about to close... and its beer oclock...

ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz................

'ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..................'

Success!!! Lights out, and just with one (although massive, muscular, ageless) finger.

Ask and you will receive.

0 and 52.

We know some people can hold off sharks with a certain attitude, focus, whilst others attract them with a certain attitude and focus. Others just bore 'em shitless with dribble until they plead with passing sperm whales to do with them what they will - just put us outta our fuckin misery.

We all feel their pain.

Doctor quick he's waking up.

Mr Gimp,Mr Gimp, Mr Gimp, can you hear us, can you see the light Mr Gimp? No Mr Gimp, you are back in hospital, the fight's over... again. No Mr Gimp you got viciously KO'd again. Yes, yes, that's right Mr Gimp, you could've won, yes of course MR Gimp, just a lucky punch. There we go Mr Gimp, that's right just take the purple tablet, good Mr Gimp.

Nooooooooo Mr Gimp!!! Swallow it you imbecile!!! Don't stick up your nostril... nnnuuuuuuurrrrsssssseeeeeee!!!!!!!!

We understand little about the mind. Most of us show the unbelievable capabilities of consciousness. The power of feeling able to string coherent sentences together.

Neanderthals, on the other hand, make us wonder about just what God was thinking that afternoon. Perhaps she dozed off. Perhaps it was an experiment that just didn't quite work out. And haven't the rest of us been paying for THAT fuckup ever since.

Ahhh ha ha ha ha

You know what you should do with that Finger , Segul .....
There's a few things i can think of , but the easiest would be to squeeze the Trigger .
Might be time for a trip west for me , might have to take out the Entire of " Ports " telecommunications . Or probably better still just take out your beloved Gym . That should keep ya busy for a while " rebuilding ya 'Temple' ........
Maybe time for me to build another " fibrulator " , shows up as Heart attack in bed at the coroners Office .... Anything to stop this ridiculously Repetitive dribble that makes its way from what maybe a Brain "or maybe what should be there , but isn't " down to your Keyboard .... Perhaps your computer has a Virus .... Your not making any sense ..... If only Re - Bourne .....

How are you this morning Mr Gimp, yes it was touch and go for awhile. You've been in and out of a coma for months. Would you like to read more of Mr Uplift's work? its all you've talked about in your sleep... nurse quickly, he's quivering and snivelling and squealing and trembling uncontrollably like a terrified mouse!!! Don't worry Mr Gimp we'll keep you warm! Quickly nurse grab a an extra gown for him. What do you mean they're all too big, what about the children's gowns? Improvise then, grab one of those tissues and wrap him in that! Noooo, noooooo nurse... not so tight, your crushing the feeble little fucker... stop, oh no, he's gone again, get the thing off him! Mr Gimp... Mr Gim.... Mr Gi...... Mr........ M.............................................................................
................................................................................................................................................

You mean't to do that didn't you nurse!

'Maybe time for me to build another " fibrulator "'

That's how you fucked ya back up last time, you idiot.

hahaha , Uplift ..... What you don't know makes you funny .. I'm no whipping boy , closer to the tonne than 80 and only an inch or so shy of you . Less than 5 % body fat , just don't waste time showering naked with other blokes , namely Greek Jim .

No Seagul , I broke my back pulling In . You should try it some time ....

Now its Jimmy!!! That's fuckin' hilarious, he'll be freaking that he's been dragged into this!

He's only freaking coz' he's on your Side. Or is that at your side ?... But most probably Inside you .....

Ahahaha.. The only time I ever saw up skirt in any barrels was when he was rolling around in the foam ball when it was 3 ft! Any bigger and he was always racing to the shoulder or as anyone who knew him would know, when it was really solid he'd go MIA or be on the cliff with some feeble excuse or bullshit story.

King of the comeback! King of excuses! Hahaha..

The confusion evidenced by certain parties on this site is best illustrated by these two words:

Perseveration: the pathological, persistent repetition of a word, gesture, or act.

Perseverance: steady persistence in a course of action in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement.

Some forms of dementia, traumatic brain injury, anxiety and OCD can cause people to perseverate. Or perhaps they're simply sub-human, and don't get what the rest of us implicitly understand. They repeat words and tasks or try repeatedly to solve problems, but are left frustrated and unsatisfied. They're not necessarily insane, but stuck in a non-productive pattern due to a glitch in brain function. Some medications or CBT tools may prove helpful. Or perhaps a bullet.

There's also the psychodynamic construct called repetition compulsion where people unconsciously repeat past conflicts in an attempt at mastery. We want to finish unfinished business, so sometimes we re-create old, unresolved problems for the potential of a better outcome. A typical example would be a bloke who was rejected by a smart girl in his early teen years and therefore seeks out pliable, heavily-dependent or compliant and, always, much younger women in his adulthood. Or a bloke who feels it's always his duty to regale apathetic, on-line "friends" with his dribble to show how smart or well-read he his. Or someone who is drawn to crowds of better adjusted/smarter/nicer looking/etc. people where they always feel left out. They're all trying to finally conquer some old feelings of rejection. But even if they do succeed today, it doesn't erase the pain from the past.

Let's not confuse perseveration with perseverance. A persistent quest against a fear or toward a goal is often the best course of action. Repeating the same constructive behavior over and over, hoping (one day) for a positive result is difficult but virtuous. It's the effort made by eating muesli (as distinct from, say, a dozen eggs) every morning, brushing your teeth after every meal and daily exercise. It's Mother Theresa tirelessly serving the poor. Or someone working to systematically overcome shyness, build healthier habits or communicate better rather than just rant, rave or say the same thing over and over. The qualities of perseverance, consistency, loyalty - these are beneficial to health and well-being. And they're doing the same thing every day, hoping for some measure of progress.

So how do you tell the difference? Perseveration feels compulsive, hopeless, helpless, automatic and unsatisfying. There is a desire to stop, but stopping doesn't feel like an option. Perseverance feels like striving toward a noble goal, and whether or not it's reached it there is virtue in the effort.

Perseverance is a strong, valuable quality. Perseveration is a troubling issue needing clinical attention. Or, as I say, a bullet.

'I'm no whipping boy , closer to the tonne than 80 and only an inch or so shy of you . Less than 5 % body fat'

'Hiiii guuuythhs, my naymtthhs thsoufey. Woowd yoooothhhs wike to to cum wiv me and my fweenthhhs gwimpy and gwogthsey and wip vem wiv me. I'm actyouwy nearwy a vewy big guy, and I'll take awl my cwoves off if you want to theee my fat!

I gotta a weeawy, weawy sthaw back becauth I gotta hugethe bawwel, and ven sthumb howwible, howwible, mean... wike weawy, howwible mean guyths juth keep on pushing awl ve wips down on me. Vey don't no how mean I am stho they juth keep on doin it. Vey shthould awl justh get wost! Wwewll anywey me an my fwens gwimpy an gwogethy awre awl gonna get vem. Well, how about it ven, wanna take awl your cwoves off and measthure my fat wiv me?'

Segaul ,
Thats the clearest most concise thing you've written in a year .........
Doesn't say much for the waste of energy you've produced to date ......anyway its clear . You've had a melt down , right side of your body gone numb ...
The South Paw from Vic , gets it on Points ....

' I've Worked 9 days straight so Perhaps Sunday the 5th didn't exist ??
No i get it , it merged to another thread ( Social.... .......... ..... ) ... clearly i need sleep'

Hewwo I'm sthoufey, and hewres ver keeyths to youwre new houth. Iths been weawy, weawy harwd to make ith becauwth me an my fwiends gwimpthy and gwogsthy are fighting thith sthtinky weawy, weawy big, muscle guy, Mr Upwifth. And we can punchth him and beet him and my fwiends gwimpthy and gwogesthy are weawy weawy good at fighting too, and thewre not thcared of him. Wherew am I, an whaaaaat day isth visth... can I come in wiv youths and take my cwoves off, an youths can measthure my fat... IIII wiwll bwing my fwends too, we alwayths take our cwoves off and sthtuff and measthure ouwr fats.

Don't wun away, cum back, I made vis howth spethially fowr youths. I can fixth awl vothes bwoken fingths... iths becausth I have to fight awl vose sthtinky wonthes vat juth keep dwopping in on me too. I can fight vem too, an if vey donth thtop weawy, weawy sthoon, ven me an my fwendths gwimpthy an gwogthsey will get weawy, weawy mad, an fight all vem too.

Hewwo you, I'm Sthoufy wann cum inthide visth empthy howth an take awl your cwothes off wiv me, an meathure my fatthh... no won ith hewre an I got ve keyths... cum bak... wwhewre am I, what day ith visth...

Hewwo Misthter powicethmans... I can beat upwift and me and my fwendths gwimpthy an gwogesthy wiwll punchth yew too... what day ith visth, whewre am I... wanna meathure my fatth...

Southey if you visit maisha fitness you can post a pic of mick shirtlift bournes mug.

Hahahahahaha. Hats off to you sir.

SABF ,
I've seen that link before .... No wonder he wants to pass himself off as Segaul ....
As much as that Yank has let himself go , he still looks twenty years younger than
Re - Bourne or is that Still Bourne ....
Anyway don't stress , i have a relation who has infiltrated his work place , and just looking for weaknesses in the structure as we speak ... hehehe
Ben , Goofyfoot and Schmux are probably the only ones to share that joke though ...

I wouldn't even bother....?
Seen all the links.
Seen Bourne
No need now, pretty god dam fuckin funny tho.
I do have to laugh at this whole, impersonation.................................... ''''

'Seen Bourne'

Thats funny never seen, or heard anything about you. Who are you?

Amb, gimpy, groges, souufey, same, never heard anything about any of you? Who are you?

I know all about sharks, more than anyone on here. Let me tell you why.
So one day I go into Elly pub, everyone was pleased to see me, girls trying to chat me up and guys I don’t even know trying to buy me beers. Amasing stuff. Anyway I let Bob buy me a beer and he tells me about this crazy scientist that come into town and trying to tell the kids at the school that their are 3 theirs. There, their and they’re. I said bullshit their all the same word, they sound exactly the same he’s just making up 2 extras and changing the spelling. Bob says “that’s what I thought too, but I wasn’t sure, but I knew you would know the right answer.”
So I go straight down to the school to see this csiro science man from the big smoke.
“what’s this I hear about you trying to brainwash the kids around here with 3 different theirs?”
“I’m just teaching them the differences between there, their and they’re. English is a complicated language”
“Their is only one their. Their all the same. Don’t try and confuse these kids with your scientific terms such as nouns, verbs or possessive adjectives.”
“They are not scientific terms, and I’m not a scientist. I’m a teacher.”
“All you scientists are the same, just ask the indigenous people of this country. They were going just deluxe for 60,000 years and then you came along.”
“ummm… I’m not sure what you are talking about”
“Well let me tell you. This fat chick came to me, none of you so-called expert scientists could help her, had her on all sorts of crazy low-fat diets but she still put on wait. Hilarious. So I “trained” her hard for 12 weeks (if you know what I mean ;)), had her eating a dozen boiled eggs a day, duck fat and a couple of big macs. Look at these 2 photos. Before and after. Now try and tell me I don’t know about quandongs”
“quandongs??… Uhh.. anyway she doesn’t really look much different and why is she holding that newspaper. Isn’t that what they do with hostages in south America??”
“ohhh so now you’re an expert on the health and fitness industry are you?!? The newspaper shows how long it was between the before and after shot. And don’t believe anything you hear about me holding fat chicks hostage and me making them eat eggs and cream”
“Well actually it doesn’t prove anything. I think you’ve been watching too many Hollywood movies. You could keep a newspaper from today and use it 6 months later for your after photo. The only thing it proves in the movies is that the person was alive as of that date, not how fit they are or how much they weigh, besides you can’t even read the dates in your photos.”
“Look you scrawny little gimp scientist, you know nothing about fitness, I’m the best basketballer in Elliston and pro surfers aren’t even fit, did you even see the pipe final JJF and Kelly, and one time Maurice and wayne came to town, another time kango and rabbit did too and I showed them all. It was amasing. So I’m telling you the composition of this chicks blood changed don’t even worry about the newspapers in the photos.”
“Wait.. who is JJF, Kelly or maurice? And what do they have to do with me teaching children correct grammar?? And whilst I’m not a scientist, it seems you have something against scientific process yet you claim to have changed the composition of this “fat chicks” blood by “training” her hard. How exactly did you measure that?”
“By tasting it of course, here look at these 2 photos. Before and after. Fat chick in the back ground holding a newspaper. That’s me in the front tasting her blood. See my thumbs down. Now in this one. Thumbs up!! See you wimpy little expert scientists don’t know everything. Now let me tell you about sharks…..

Thought so. Easy to tell.

I am that I am.

You guys should change your pants, we can smell yas from here.

We?

Ah, I geddit. Using the royal pronoun.

Now you've got shit stuck between your teeth too.

Ah, a certain grumpiness creeping into the tone. Nerve touched.

Unbelievable amount of shit, you are chock a block full, so to speak, its all over groges too.

Who did you say you are... look out here comes another load!

Too late. Cat's outta the bag. Nighty night Princess.

Have fun wiping groges off!

I know all about sharks, more than anyone on here. Let me tell you why.
So one day I go into Elly pub, everyone was pleased to see me, girls trying to chat me up and guys I don’t even know trying to buy me beers. Amasing stuff. Anyway I let Bob buy me a beer and he tells me about this crazy scientist that come into town and trying to tell the kids at the school that their are 3 theirs. There, their and they’re. I said bullshit their all the same word, they sound exactly the same he’s just making up 2 extras and changing the spelling. Bob says “that’s what I thought too, but I wasn’t sure, but I knew you would know the right answer.”
So I go straight down to the school to see this csiro science man from the big smoke.
“what’s this I hear about you trying to brainwash the kids around here with 3 different theirs?”
“I’m just teaching them the differences between there, their and they’re. English is a complicated language”
“Their is only one their. Their all the same. Don’t try and confuse these kids with your scientific terms such as nouns, verbs or possessive adjectives.”
“They are not scientific terms, and I’m not a scientist. I’m a teacher.”
“All you scientists are the same, just ask the indigenous people of this country. They were going just deluxe for 60,000 years and then you came along.”
“ummm… I’m not sure what you are talking about”
“Well let me tell you. This fat chick came to me, none of you so-called expert scientists could help her, had her on all sorts of crazy low-fat diets but she still put on wait. Hilarious. So I “trained” her hard for 12 weeks (if you know what I mean ;)), had her eating a dozen boiled eggs a day, duck fat and a couple of big macs. Look at these 2 photos. Before and after. Now try and tell me I don’t know about quandongs”
“quandongs??… Uhh.. anyway she doesn’t really look much different and why is she holding that newspaper. Isn’t that what they do with hostages in south America??”
“ohhh so now you’re an expert on the health and fitness industry are you?!? The newspaper shows how long it was between the before and after shot. And don’t believe anything you hear about me holding fat chicks hostage and me making them eat eggs and cream”
“Well actually it doesn’t prove anything. I think you’ve been watching too many Hollywood movies. You could keep a newspaper from today and use it 6 months later for your after photo. The only thing it proves in the movies is that the person was alive as of that date, not how fit they are or how much they weigh, besides you can’t even read the dates in your photos.”
“Look you scrawny little gimp scientist, you know nothing about fitness, I’m the best basketballer in Elliston and pro surfers aren’t even fit, did you even see the pipe final JJF and Kelly, and one time Maurice and wayne came to town, another time kango and rabbit did too and I showed them all. It was amasing. So I’m telling you the composition of this chicks blood changed don’t even worry about the newspapers in the photos.”
“Wait.. who is JJF, Kelly or maurice? And what do they have to do with me teaching children correct grammar?? And whilst I’m not a scientist, it seems you have something against scientific process yet you claim to have changed the composition of this “fat chicks” blood by “training” her hard. How exactly did you measure that?”
“By tasting it of course, here look at these 2 photos. Before and after. Fat chick in the back ground holding a newspaper. That’s me in the front tasting her blood. See my thumbs down. Now in this one. Thumbs up!! See you wimpy little expert scientists don’t know everything. Now let me tell you about sharks…..

Haven't been down to the gym boys? Have a snort, and stock up on nappies, you'll run out of pants.

Ok, back on topic. No one hijack this thread.
Uplift, come back and post your nonsensical, amasing, bemusing and deluxe posts in here.. Hilarious stuff.

Agent Bourne
You are called to the office please.
Your next mission is to elaborate on Shark Experts.
I must admit agent Bourne, your not very muscular for 40 years of uplifting model trains that you've been building.
Cheeky old fella look tho.

Come and see for yourself chubber?

Me too. You're welcome any time.

Make sure you get some before and after shots welly.

'

Always between someone's legs, squealing for backup. Come out?

Yep, attaboy, I agree, good call, very brave - Come OUT. It'll be for the best.

World: we give you ............ Mick Re-Bourne, Rainbow Warrior!!!!

GWS Gilbert at Neptune island had a little chomp on another white shark
Story in W.A. today paper.

It's online here as well..

Thing is, the little one goes to attack the bigger one, but ends up in its mouth :o

get rid of the cage frothing market its not right , they smart f...ckers now ,seeing humans and they are pissed off chuming chuming ,its messing with there heads ,

Karls right STOP the cage diving,chumming up white pointers with people in the water is so fucked up it would be doing the sharks heads in.So stupid,blood on the hands of the cocks doing it.

Totally agree Karl and Simba, cage-diving is totally wrong when chumming the water to attrack sharks.

Shark attack this morning near Espaerance, south coast WA. Hope the fella survives.
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/man-bitten-on-both-arms-in-shark-attac...

Cage dive charter operator at Neptune Island witness pod of Killer whales attack and kill GWS
ABC news online.
By rights this should disperse the GWS in the area for some time ?

Hope it doesn't just send em up the coast.

That family of orcas can come holiday up here for as long as they want.

I'm buying a couple of Killer Whales from a cash strapped East European marine park. Gonna make those puppies up to be my personal oceanic bodyguards.

Anyone know anything about training orcas ?

Too easy. Cheers Chin. If you're ever in need of a security detail for a session let us know, I'll ship those fuckers wherever you need em . I'll probably need a fair bit of notice though mate. Give us 24 hours at least.

Great White Shark interactions with humans : ABC news online

this udo? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-11/jawsome-coast-australia-tracks-gre...

Yep, the audio is worth listening to.