Wave of the future: An interview with Greg Webber
Greg Webber is part of the famous Webber clan, six surfing brothers who's influence has been felt within the surfing world and also far beyond it. Their collective resume counts the disciplines of design, music, philosophy, videography and many other areas still. For the last decade Greg has been working on his wave pool design and part of the process involves casting his imagination decades forward and understanding how wave pools will revolutionise surfing.
I recently spoke to Greg about how his pools will work and what the results will be. Prepare yourself for a new vision of the future.
Swellnet: Your name has been closely related to wavepools but all I see at the moment is Kelly Slater wavepools, what stage are you up to? Greg Webber: We're ready to build one. That's what stage we are up to. As for Kelly, he's got a design that's similar looking to ours but it's how you create the waves that count. We've just got our US patent granted, as well as patents for China, Japan and Australia, and hopefully all the other countries we've applied for will follow on from the US, which they usually do.
The circular pool with an island isn't that new, so the patent side really relates to the fine details of the wave making method. I guess it's up to you guys to check on whether Kelly has his IP side sorted for his design. It's not for me to say.
SN: I'm guessing that you are aware of the status of Kelly's design? GW: Yep, but can't say. Sorry mate.
[Editor's note: Please read this article for further information]
SN: How far from market are you? GW: We're ready right now. And it could be less than two years before the first one is built. Although we've got all manner of investors and developers and brands keen to build they all want to see a pool built before they start spending the big dollars, which is understandable. Even just a small one that makes one and a half metre waves would do.
Fortunately we have a guy who is keen to build one somewhere in Queensland, but not as a business, just for he and his mates. True! I'm not saying he has committed yet, but we've talked and he basically said, "How much will it cost to make two metre waves?" I told him $10 million and he didn't panic. I'm going to take him onto the river to do some wake surfing and see if that swings it.
SN: Would you consider this first one a test run? GW: Sure. For everyone else it will be, but we already know it will work. I've been making these wakes since 2000, and what's been done at the uni in Tassie [Australian Maritime College in Launceston] has been all about honing the thing to get the certainty there. It's like making something work perfectly, then moving one element from side to side and up and down and watching how it all changes. This is how we jumped from one wave per hull to two waves. We did some massive shifts in the opposite direction and boom! Two perfect waves.
These guys down there aren't idiots. They've tested some of the most amazing craft ever built. But above all of that, we'll build some adjustability into the first one so that the first customer will feel totally comfortable. We know we don't need it but it will be a mental thing.
SN: Once the first one is built will it be a stepping stone to a pay-to-use business model? GW: Yeah, it will be and it's going to be pretty cheap per wave. Pools will succeed due to the pool revenue and retail and other incomes combined with it. So there'll be a balancing act with a need to make sure a couple of thousand people a day can get stoked. I'm thinking about $2 for a 20 second ride or $3 for 30 seconds. But really, who knows? If a developer wants to sell properties around a bigger pool, then he might let all the locals at that surf estate surf for free in order to add value to the properties that he's trying to sell. Who knows how it will be used?
SN: What sort of energy will it require? GW: Well it's about 20kw for a 1 metre wave, 90 for a 1.5m wave, and just over 200 for a 2 metre wave. When the wave size doubles the power needed to make that wave goes up by 11 and a bit. That's if you are highly efficient. Because when you double the height of these wake waves, you double height, you double the width and you double the crest length. That's a lot more water, and it's going faster as well. That's 2 times 2 times 2, which is 8, and then you multiply that figure by the square root of 2, which is 1.4 and a bit, which gives you 11 and a bit.
The very fact that you can get 2000 or more surfers a day through the complex with really low running costs means that the returns are going to be pretty amazing. We've been downplaying the figures 'cos they just don't seem realistic. Same as wave heights, we can make 3 metre waves as well, but it's actually worse for us to mention that because it makes the entire concept seem unbelievable. It's better for us to make a smaller pool first, that makes 1.5 metre waves, and then go from there.
It's going to be a business that works all by itself, let alone when you've got developments attached to it whether they're retail or residential. That's why some big money - global players - are looking at it. It's going to work way better than golf course estates because the demographic is going to be way broader. It's so easy to learn on a perfect green faced wave that people will be doing small turns within a day. These pools will create their own customers. These big players just need to see one pool cranking out perfect barrels and there'll be a chain reaction.
SN: You've mentioned wave pools as a branding exercise, can you elaborate? GW: Sure. Surfing sells because it's a lifestyle not just because it's an action sport, and what makes it a lifestyle is what it does to you when you become a surfer - you change a bit. You become addicted to the whole experience and want more of it. So far, the biggest surf clothing companies have dominated purely because they have surf history, so when someone like Nike comes along with no surf history it's harder for them to become cool in the surfing market. You can't fake history so they can buy something with roots, like Hurley for $200 million, or whatever it was, or they can buy the future of what surfing will be - and that future will be creating waves.
When you create perfect surfing locations then you have created perfect surf retail locations. Surf retail will have to follow. So whoever dominates pool building will dominate retail. It will get very competitive.
The branding side will come not from selling the past or talking up the future, but purely from providing the moment. The future is selling people the moment, and other than sex, surfing probably gives the next best 'moments'. The moments you have when you're riding a wave, those moments are to do with being present, and they are the best therapy you can ever get. You cant think of anything else at all when you're in the moment of surfing.
These things are going to put perspective on branding exercises. I don't give a damn about who makes money out of it. I'm much happier to see a future that will have a vast number getting stoked as often as possible. It will shift us away from materialism, ironically, because experience is the future, not Facebook. Experiencing and doing stuff will negate the need to have this overt connection with everyone else on the planet.
Imagine you've never surfed and you're in a pool of a certain brand on a beautifully designed beginners board of the same brand, and you stand up for the first time in your life. Within minutes, on a gentle but faultless green-faced wave you're doing your first turns, with your mates on the edge hooting. You're in that pool of a certain brand and the logo of that company will be in front of your face on that board during that entire experience. And then the exact same thing will happen again with your first tube ride. These are powerful moments.
The board is your link to the wave, and so it becomes an emotional thing. It's more tangible than the wave pool itself. You can hold a board and even love the thing when there's a good match between the two of you. So when the pool brand name is linked to the board, then all that association goes with you when you leave the pool, with your board under you arm, or in the back of your car or even at home in your room. It's personal.
SN: You're expecting profound changes I imagine? GW: For sure. Surfing in the pools will be totally different to how it is at the beaches. There will be no hassling anymore. Imagine what it's like for 90% of surfers who very rarely get the best set waves at their local break when it gets really good. What am I talking about? They never get the best set waves when it's cranking 'cos the top 10% get all the set waves and have enough time to paddle back out and get the very next set. This happens from dawn to dusk in the urban surfing areas the world over, where the vast majority of surfers live.
In the pools there might be hundreds of people but because you are paying your $2 to $3 it's your wave and nobody else's. If there are ten waves in the pool, then ten surfers ride for 30 seconds, and then the next ten, till 4 and half minutes later you get your next 30 second ride. And in one hour you'll get 12 of them.
This is why it's crap to say surfing is for free. Yeah it's free for a tiny minority to dominate. It's a free and crowded hassle, which I'm OK with, cos it's human to compete for your spot in the hierarchy. I've done that too and still do, having learned at Bondi and Angourie, but for the vast majority this will feel way more relaxing. It's not free money wise, obviously, but it will be stress free. Now there is a choice, that's all.
SN: What about equipment? Can you see changes happening there? GW: For sure. There'll be no need to have all the high volume boards like mals and SUPs. Beyond that, experimentation will go nuts and surfers will be able to try amazing new concepts without even having to buy them. Again, if the surf pool owner is linked to a world class designer and surfboard brand, or they buy their own designer and make him theirs, then the pool name is enhanced by the famous surfboard shaper by association. It will really add to their brand image.
Imagine it: (1) stand up for the first time, (2) feel the wave under you feet, (3) get tubed, (4) ride some amazing shapes that blow you away. Imagine riding all the unusual stuff that you would never risk buying for yourself. Let alone the idea of making your own board on site, which is also quite doable. Do it with the head designer who guides you with the shaping program, then watch it get shaped and UV cure glassed, so it can be sanded by the arvo for you to ride all within 6 hours of bending curves on the shaping program. Geez, you could even put a mask on and take the grooves out of the machined blank so that you've at least touched it yourself!
This is all fun and the pool owners will have to compete to bring in customers so all sorts of new stuff will happen. And of course other sports will be added over time. Imagine circular spiraling skate ramps that are created on outer rings outside the surfing pool. Or motor cross tracks on another ring outside that, and cart racing, even cycling and athletic tracks make sense. Probably not horse racing though! But you never know. One thing for sure is that you'd want to be able to alternate between directions or you'd go nuts.
SN: You've got an all-encompassing view: from design of the wave pools, to the boards we'll use and then how it will be sold. GW: I hope I have. I worked out the basic method in december 2004 so the last seven years of my life have been thinking about the consequences of it all happening, while my surf engineer mates have worked for nothing and the uni on grant moneys. Selling it requires having it make sense on the big scale, and proving it can not only work, but work well and make money. So I've had to think about all of the consequences.
Even competing will change. Imagine holding an international event with identical pools in ten countries around the world. Seeing that the waves are identical, you could have each surfer ride their wave at exact moments, in different pools, all scheduled and timed so that the top ranked surfer from China for example could ride his wave, and then have the number one surfer from India follow on only a few seconds later.
This would mean an entire event could be run at a high speed rate, one ride after the other, in way less time, all over the world. You'd have audiences at all of those pools around the world as well as an online worldwide audience at the same time. It'd be nuts! And the judging would start to make sense cos the random nature of the ocean would be gone. Wave shape and ride length would be identical so the medium can be standardised. Even makes the Olympics possible.
Random is nice when freesurfing with no crowds, but it has solely had more to do with surfing results than skill ever has. Surfers win heats because the other surfer loses the heat through not getting a good enough second ride. Skill is 30% while wave type is 70%. Skill will still win out over a long enough tour but from heat to heat waves decide results.
In wavepools that gamble is over, and the stress of scrambling and hoping for the best wave of the heat is also over. If Kelly had had all of his 11 world titles in wavepools he wouldn't have just won all 11 titles, he would have won every heat! I hope wavepools actually take the contests away from nature, it's the opposite of what surfing is about anyway. Then there could just be freesurfing performances at the best breaks in the world, but no need for a winner. Way nicer.
SN: Both yourself and Kelly are at the vanguard of wave pool design, do you consider yourself in any way like him. GW. Geez, not really. Not as people, he's way more dedicated and driven than I am. I'm fucking lazy compared to him. I love designing but not shaping. At 22 I went to uni so that I didn't have to shape boards anymore. That's how much I didn't want to shape. I actually wanted to make artificial reefs and wavepools but I chose the wrong uni for oceanography and had to change to Sydney Uni.
But I still didn't have the patience to wade through the basic science degree, so I dropped out and went back to shaping. I'm too impatient. I remember asking a third year student about these striations and patterns on an aerial photograph of the ocean somewhere, and he said, "Don't bother asking about that stuff now, you'll get to it in third year." I was shattered. I wanted to make stuff right now. I think Kelly would have just kept trying. But then again, surfing is his work not wading through a whole semester of statistics, which was what I was told to go back to.
Overall though, I guess we're both pretty experimental. And maybe seeing the future too. He's imagined turns that have never been made and I've imagined boards that had never been made, so we're a bit similar in that way. He probably does a better job of hiding his ego too. But as for the pools, he has done me a massive favour by giving credibility to the design in a way I could never have done. I've always wanted to shape boards for him, so maybe if we can work on the pools together then I can make him some boards at last!
Comments
no more SUP's you say. good start.
although I'm looking at that artists impression up above and imagining some bastard sweeper just lurking around the outer perimeter of the pool looking to steal someones wave.
Boxright: Ha! good point. Although this work by Paul Roget excluded the hulls at our request, and so is not exactly what the pool edge will be. The waves themselves are as close to what we will be making in reality as we have had any artist create. We have made them like that in the river, at about half the height.
Nothing but respect for Webber, but this vision of surfing makes me sick to my stomach.
I'll take real waves in the real ocean, hopefully far away from the metro-donkeys shelling out their paycheck to line up with the rest of the sheep at the amusement park. My contentment comes in knowing that surfing will always be just a transient/cyclical fad among the inlanders and mainstreamers, no matter whether someone builds a surfing go-kart track or not. $100 million goes into the uber-pool, but by then the faddish dipshits are back into roller skates or hula-hoops.
I'm still watching the weather and hiking over the dunes at dawn to paddle out in the salty sea. Thanks, Mother Ocean!
Wish I won that 38 mil on Tuesday..
I find this vision of a completely branded artificial surfing experience dystopian and chilling.
This isn't a "real" experience. It's a commercially driven similacrum of an experience: a hook to sell retail and real estate and access Asian money.
Gated surfing communities replete with "brand loyalist" replicants hooked on a totally artificial experience which defines their existence.
Shit, not even Aldous Huxley could've dreamed that one.
If this is Surfing's Brave New World I want no part of it.
Yeah, fair enough with the criticism regarding taking away the experience of nature, but for a guy like me that spends more time paddling and falling off than actual standing, a constant wave would be a solid way to get some training in. Hopefully this would transfer onto the real thing with an improved skill level. Or maybe after 12 years of falling on my arse, I just need a clue!
Wow. I've been obsessed with wave pools for a while and following Greg Webber's progress with interest. They're the future no doubt. Especially for competition. But the above interview feels like a sales pitch to prospective financiers. I feel a bit dirty after reading this. We would have been better off hearing just about the science and the experience of the wave without talking about logos stamped onto the memory of our tube ride.
Good luck GW. It's a great idea and it will be amazing. I'll be the first in line for a barrel at the grand opening. (But I'll be carrying my own board without a logo)
And props to the rich guy who wants to build one for him and his mates - you stole my lottery dream!
To continue the "sex" metaphor started by GregW.
Making love to a real woman, with all it's emotional complexities and opportunities for growth will always be more rewarding and human than fucking a plastic doll, despite the fact that orgasm is achieved in both instances.
it's good to know now, though, that when these dolls start showing up in our midst and we become conditioned to pay for easy sex, when previously we had to rely on our wits and skill, that human devolution is upon us.
These are scary times for the human race: when the most precious experiences are simulated and sold to corporations in exchange for "brand loyalty".
Calling this mechanised, chlorinated experience a "shift away from materialism" is delusion on a mass scale.
http://www.coastalwatch.com/news/article.aspx?articleId=9789&display=0&c...
Does anyone else get the feeling that Tim Baker has been commissioned by Slater & Co to push their PR machine and to throw water over the already lit fire?
Before i wade into the natural vs mechanical debate i am trying to remember the last good wave I had here on the Goldy. Right now I am about ready to ride a camels hump! A perfect wave in a pool looks a lot better than a hairy dromedaries back bump.
The double edged sword of surf commecialism. It has put money into the industry and promoted the technical development of boards and pushed the limits of what we thought was possible and our approach to waves.
Now let's fast track the learning curve and flock the masses to our beaches. Hopefully we can cram every lineup like snapper with potential customers, regardless of how much it dimishes the natural surf experience.
Or you could pay us for your own private waves...
Yes, seems this concept could easily be pushed in the wrong direction...and how about the power costs?? I suppose that isn't an issue as long as it brings in the big bucks.
Mr Slater is none too happy with your journalism Stu!!
http://www.surfline.com/surf-news/update-kelly-slater-wave-company_62860/
Each party has a vested interest and you go on the facts at hand but this whole saga is turning quite juicy.
Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere - there are 3+ articles on the matter.
Interesting vision and science though....
@ Offshore Ozzie,
Yeah, I've seen it. Both the statement from the VP of KSWC and Kelly's own statement were posted on US website, The Inertia, last night. I thought they had an exclusive so I replied on that website. I've since seen it in a few places so it appears Kelly is sending out press releases. Rather than chase 'em all over the 'net I'm gonna sit tight for a bit.
Suffice to say, both Kelly and his company had ample time to reply to my emails before the original story went live and they didn't. And importantly, the story was factually correct at the time it was published.
Every wave in the ocean is different to the last and can never be duplicated by means of a wave pool, though when there are long summer flat spells in WA i'll be lining up with my wavepool wristband on with all the budgie smuggling hordes.
Wavepools are gonna lead to a decrease in the number of surfers in a lineup, and with the increase in the surfing population in recent years, this will surely be of benefit to those of us who enjoy surfing uncrowded powerfull ocean waves.
Bring on the wave pools!
@ rider, nice link .
The Budapest wave maybe was the first wave-pool in the world. That's an important part of the history.
even a right hand break? Too bad the Nazis wanted the worlds richs for themselves or it might have developed further?
@ GW sorry but if you want to learn about about things you don't have to do courses. You read and you ask. Courses are not meant to be fun , learning or education nowadays . they are packaged information that you use to pass exams from . Then when your company hires specialists you know they have passed these courses examinations. That is what industry works from. Now the b-factor (or boffin factor) is another matter. I always got taught by my dad if you were good enough to work for someone else to make them money you were good enough to work for yourself.
Wave pools - they are happening a in a free market the consumer (us) choses and the ones they chose will succeed well - the other well -competition is always good for a free market. (as long as it obeys the rulez?)
Ill ask a silly question. Where do you reckon the surfer paddles in and takes off??
Hey shoredump me too. Build one at (insert most crowded/aggressive local break here)and yell MY WAVE all day!
And what happens when these brand-washed replicants who have no idea of etiquette, whose idea of getting a wave is as simple as sliding their credit cards through a machine when they arrive at the park, come to the ocean and decide they will try real surfing in real waves.
Oh, they can surf alright. They learned to do it in one day. They have high skills levels and even higher expectations of entitlement. They pay to play and satisfaction is guaranteed in the pool , why should the ocean be any different?
En masse with their branded boards they paddle out, 10, 20, a hundred of 'em in formation.
Wait your turn, don't paddle up the inside??/ What quaint rules these ocean surfers have.
Come fellow Nike surfer, we are far more skilled than these luddites, let us go in and show them how it is done.
Unfortunately Steve, that is happening everywhere already. And we haven't spawned the wave pool generation yet.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the wave pool, I just wonder about the repercussions that will follow as per what is being pointed out.
There's certainly that negative aspect to it. The potential number of beginners that will flush out of wave pools into the ocean is a worry. Or will it pull the other way and drag the hapless gumbies out of the ocean and into the pool for a better learning experience?
Then again, after almost 2 weeks without a ridable wave over 2ft, you've gotta admit there's some merit to them. If I had a choice today between perfect 2m? barrels (how is GW measuring wave height?) and the 2-3ft of howling onshore, runoff-polluted slop on offer here I know where I'd rather be.
To all the whingers get over it FFS, sick of all these surfing purists who always feel threaten by non-core surf concepts. If you don't like it don't f'n go to it.
In all likelihood any beginners who learn to surf there and think they can do it as easy in the ocean will most likely fcuk right back off to the wave pool after one struggle session in the real stuff. If anything it is likely to keep the kooks out of the ocean. And on flat days i'm happy to go use it whilst you sit at home whinging about fake waves! And as for the branding issue honestly how do you think concepts of anything are brought into reality, the corporate or government dollar and of course they will want a return for their investment, it's only fair. I'd be happy to pay 20 bucks to come home after 10 perfect rides or barrels, havent got that in Vic since I started surfing!!!
Keep up the good work Webber!! :-)
I dont see it as a problem, wave pool surfers will still have to learn how to paddle out, negotiate rips and boils understand tide and how to negotiate imperfect sections on waves.
Same idea as skatin and snowboarding. standing up in surfin is easy, reading the ocean.... now that's the fun / hard part and offers continual challenges.
as for the rude approach some seem to be taking in the line up, i rekon education is the key. If crew persist selfish surfing, maybe now they can be sent back to the pool.
same idea as skatin and snowboarding. standing up in surfin is easy, reading the ocean.... now that's the fun / hard part and offers continual challenges.
we surf cause we love the ocean, i never understand why crew keep trying to build wave pools, hit the local bowl or go for a wake or sup seesion on flat days instead.
much respect though greg for your dedication and for-sight , hope it dosen't get ugly with slater, would be a shame for all.
peace
Yeah, yeah, forgive me for not being a cheerleader.
One question on the practicalities.
Beginners will want a nice gentle, small sloping wave.
Advanced surfers will want the barrel and steep sections.
So, will there be session with barrells and then ones with babyfood for the newbies?
Or will surfers dial in specs for their ride?
Another thing that has yet to be discussed are planning regulations. These things will require water, energy and space and that means dealing with local and state planning regulations.
It may sound bizarre for most people but it just may occur that some may see these things as an expensive indulgence using scarce resources.
Everyone wants to be a surfer. How many times have you heard people say "I tried surfing once". Every second person you see on the street has a surf brand piece of clothing or accessory. There are surf shops that are in places 1000km's from the ocean.
Look at how crowded parts of Indo are. People from all over the world with questionable abilities out at breaks they really shouldn't be at. But hey, if it makes them happy, who am I to judge. As long as they don't hurt me through their overconfident enthusiasm!
I personally would probably have a go in one of the wave pools if a proven one was up and running just to see what it was like, but you won't keep me out of the ocean. It has been my playground for 40 odd years now so I guess it is my blood.
Indo is the perfect Future-portal for the implications for this technology.
Whole breaks suffocating under the weight of beginner/intermediate surfers with expanded entitlements (hey we learned to surf in .....we have just as much right to be out here etc etc ) and ZERO idea of etiquette or safety.
Just paddle out and try and catch anything that moves.
Now throw in a potential crowd of a billion Chinese and Indians with ZERO experience of surf culture and we will see a recipe for CHAOS.
This is going to make the Superbank look like Morning of the Earth.
But hey, as long as surfers can catch a few waves in a pool when the surf is flat who cares.......
I think this might fall under the category: Be careful what you wish for.
OMG WE R ALL GOING 2 DIE BECUZ OF DA WAVEPOOLZ!!!1!one!
I think people are forgetting something here. They cost money. A lot of money. They will not be built of every corner of every block of every city. I reckon we'll be luckly to see one in each major city. And dont we have the highest number of surfing participants as a percentage of overall population on earth?
If you can honestly put your hand on your heart and tell me that you think this concept will have any tangible effect on your future surfing experience then I think you may need to up the Prozac dosage, have a lie down, maybe even give yourself a duffle and relax.
Me personally, probably not.
If the concept takes off though and developers start making these things like golfing estates, which is part of the vision, and they take off in Asia, as per Greg's vision, then I think it would have a profound impact on surf culture and personal experience in the future.
If the Asian middle class takes up surfing then that will be the biggest change surfing will have ever seen.
Hells bells P-funk, the internet was barely around 10 years ago.
It's not too much of a stretch to see these things changing things in profound ways........
This is certainly a contentious question. I think that surf pools will actually keep a lot of learners and people who afraid of cold, sharks, etc out of the ocean, which is a good thing for a lot of the purists. As for the increase in commercialization of surfing, it's already happened, this would simply be another step.
However, the great thing about surfing is you can be apart of the commercial aspect as much or as little as you like. If wave pools fill you with dread, don't use them. There's a lot of coast in Australia, you can always get away to isolated spots with some trekking. All the wave pool offers are more waves and more ways to ride them. Hopefully wave pools keep the ocean crowds down a bit.
Gee could get expensive if you blow you first turn a few times haha..
Such a humble and respectful guy is GW. This interview was a pleasure to read compared to some of the other rubbish out there. I hope kelly see's the light and teams up with GW. They would make a great team and a shit load of $ together.
has anyone considered that if it ever comes to fruition it will most likely, in effect, be a new 'type' of surfing just as bodysurfing (yes it was and can be done), boogey, Mal, SUP, skim etc.
We have 4 football codes here on oz and each is played on different pitches, diffferent balls, different rules, different followers, different sponsors etc etc.
Now if you have ever seen the standing wave surfing in various river and ridden a flowrider, the dynamics are very very different to surfing. There is no way, IMHO these concepts will ever have the true dynamics of ocean waves no matter how big, hollow etc they can make them.
Water viscosity and bouyancy/salinity for one range of variables, wind and surface tension, a totaaly different mindset to which the rider (as opposed to natural surfer) will have will need new equipment, different style, different body fitness and flexibility (no spending 3/4 time in water paddling, sitting up, lying down, rotating etc). The mind boggles at the variations that will have to be overcome/developed to 'surf the ring', not to mention the hype of what sponsors will drive the exponents to do and perform to keep it interesting.
So I think, good bloody luck to Greg or Kelly because it will not change surfing as we know it for the worse even if they can pull it off. Gregs radical curved boards, fins, double ended boards etc have mostly been relegated to the back stalls and were just another interesting side road in the journey and search for surfing nirvana...me thinks the ocean and its waves and nature itself be way too powerful an aphrodisiac to have real surfers lives interfered with in any negative way
err I think these two think they are gonna go crash the chinese surf market and become billionaires. Which would be cool if China keeps it's current policy of not letting its citizens leave the country.
But i have a feelin' the Chinese dont really dig surfing much, cos they get ok waves here and there but these communities have virtually no 'locals'. so good luck there.
No I think the bang for buck will come from rich inland spoilt seppos, rich spoilt brazzos and cashed up aussies in mid-life crisis.
But I have a feelin this little pipedream will die a poor, sad and very expensive death.
If more surfers were fvckin rebels and not sheep we wouldn't be in peril of our beloved turning into a "sport".
oh the surfline piece was nice, if it's true, thats 3 articles you guys have fvcked up in a month. what I don't get is why Swellnet keeps surfspots secret etc yet for the second time in a month they've literally let some wannabe surf tycoon have their day in the sun in spouting shitty surf technologies developed only for attracting the masses.
wtf.
Other perfectly friggin obvious question: How do you determine which the way will break .....ie will it be lefts 50% of the time etc etc ?
I think I've scared Greg away by comparing his wavepool to a rubber sex doll.
Come back Greg, I was only joking.
^
he he yep i was wonderin the same thing, i'd imagine the hull would have to be rotated? so there'd be some change over time, kinda like a lull in the tide change.
imagine a bunch of crew will get stuck in the pool too trying to get out of the way of an ever oncoming set, could be some epic holddowns if you got the thing spinning quick enough.
A pox on your "Polio-Pond" idea.
Invest same said money - but a Fijian island and a D-8 Caterpillar, w/underwater snorkel.
Have at it!
will come back soon, just so much on with this debate.
Where's the rubber sex doll comment? sounds great!
vicco battler is onto it. Thanks mate. even though I understand the sentiments of those resenting the fake aspect. So many ways to see all of this. But some basic truths will out I'm sure. I have to link up with my boys and watch a horror film while eating two frozen dinners!
What if someone falls off in the wave pool? Does that not put a huge delay in the line process?
I imagine there will be some classic scenes, a lot of you guys think this little monster is going to take the hassle out of surfing, your deluded. So what will happen when the first guy takes off but falls , the second guy runs him over and they're legropes are tangled, by the time the tenth bloke has taken off he has to dodge half a dozen blokes floating in the lineup who can't duck under the water to get out of the way cause they are wearing lifejackets, but at least they are easy to see with the flouro coloured helmets, the insurance company insisted on jackets ,helmets and legropes. And then for all the guys that had there wave spoilt and did not think it was all a hoot bobbing around watching perfect wave go by have to line up at the lost waves office to fill out a form to get a wave credit. Sounds like so much fun.
Henri: Good question. Luckily, when surfers fall off, as with all wipeouts, they will come up in the whitewash of their own wave. Seeing that the next wave is breaking in clean water, then it would be very difficult for the surfer on the next wave to run over the surfer on the wave before, without actually trying to aim for that surfer by turning towards shore and steering towards him. Even at the most mechanical point breaks, where the waves are following almost identical peel lines, all it takes is a surfer to catch a wave which is slightly smaller than the wave before, to create the potential of a surfer being run over. Beach breaks have it even more all over the place. But in any circular wave pool that has identically sized waves, they will all have identical peel lines, and so the possibility gets minimized down to the level of a surfer doing something beyond negligent, in that the surfer on the following wave would have to aim towards the surfer on the previous wave, and it would be on camera and quite obvious. If the surfer on the following wave just bellies his wave in and the surfer in front has had a wipeout, the following surfer still has time to see the surfer in the water in front of him as can happen at beach breaks and again, there would have to be some purposeful aiming in order to run anyone over. Unlike the beach break scenario, all rides will be recorded in high def video so that a copy of your session can be either purchased or given to you, (depending on the park you go to). This will help the park owner to distinguish between a pure fluke accident, negligence or actual intent in relation to any claims. This will take the vast majority of the grey area out of any potential claims. But, until one is built, all we have to go on is the video of our river surfing at one meter, which is not an actual pool but still a very good indicator.
Yippee! Fake waves to go along with the fake tans, fake tits, fake hair, fake people. Reality folks. Reality.
Henri: part 2 on that answer is that if need be, we can alter the size of the two waves that are created on each hull, so that the second wave is slightly bigger than the first wave, to increase the gap between peel lines to about 2 meters. This will add 2 meters to the 4m to 5m gap that will already be there in a pool with 1.5m waves. Even further, if needed, only one wave per hull can be created to eliminate the issue entirely. We only recently worked out that we can now close the gap between the hulls to two wave lengths, so that there are no gaps between any waves, which is just back to back walls throughout the entire pool. This allows us to make 18 x 2 meter waves in a 200m pool. Because the hulls can be lifted and lowered to control wave height, then of course they can be lifted right out of the water entirely. This gives the operator the option to decrease or increase the wave numbers to match the variable demand of the day. It also means, since we have control of wave height by speed and/or hull draft, that we can have waves of different sizes breaking at the same time. So if some beginners want 1m and some good surfers want 1.75m and some hot guys want 2m waves, then this is easy to fulfill merely by asking the surfers what wave size they want before they enter for that session. All they have to do is go back to a numbered take off zone a few minutes after each ride, and two waves of that size will come peeling towards them. Of course with the two waves per hull being of the same size then only even numbers of differently sized waves is possible.
How deep is it in case you needed to duck dive or swim down to get out of the way of someone.
Freeride, I was wondering the same thing re lefts and rights.
I'm assuming that a clockwise-rotating hull gives lefts and anticlockwise gives rights. Do you alternate by the hour? alternate days? depending upon user demand?
Greg, would starting and stopping the hull (say on the hour) affect the energy efficiency of the thing?
Greg I think you have confirmed (via your post above to Henri) my point that this (if it ever happens) will not be surfing by surfers as we know it, but a new code or sport.
The 'machine' will control everything and the park operator/banker/insurance co will control the park. Big Brother water sport just as is a water slide and any aquatic swim centre/park.
The participant will be just a 'brick in the wall customer'. You will have their credit card/banking details, their phone no (and what 10 yr old doesn't have a mobile), constant surveilance HD video and photos of them (get some good stuff from the change rooms for your collection there), signed indemnity contract in case one goes feral and 'aims' their weapon of choice into the nerd who farted on them in the queue, drug/ alchol testing for the same reasons, fins rails etc inspected to ensure compliance with OH&S policy (clause 4.7, part 1A (ii) subsection 7 of the the conditions of operation manual, scanning on entry to ensure no dangerous weapons, objects (small white pointer, box jellyfish, pirana, etc hidden in backpack, or maybe 2 litres of concentrated detergent to turn the whole affair into a 'ring of foam'.
Hot shot Rad Robot, member no. 4321 steps to front of queue. Is recognised by his scanned chip that is imbeded in the left hand side of his earlobe, he has already dialled his next wave type into the touch screen at queue station 3 (which by the way has red bull, mars bars or a shot of botox available or place a bet with the TAB at queue station 5 against the odds that you will get a 27sec barrell followed by a half rodeo to fakie el nudo double rollo with freeze frame on sponsors logo....you get the picture
So he steps up, is announced over the pa to the adoring fans and steps effortlessly onto his selected wave , a 1.5 metre peeling barrel, but as he hits the 15sec mark of his barrel, Milo Milkybar ( 12 yr old son of rich parents who have paid $7k to have him stay at the 'Ring Resort" for a week of learning to surf) has taken a tumble over the back ( for some reason he did not follow the model of being washed shore ward) of the wave and lies floundering with his 7 foot boat side on to our champ bearing down on him on a wave of much bigger and more power than Milo has ever experienced....faaaaark screams Milo (big brother cameras record not only vision but sound and the word faark lights up the 'bad language detector on the control board and instantly debits Milos card account for $200 fine) ... but it is all too late Rad (having never surfed in the real world) has never heard of standing island pullout or even a straighten out and smashes head long into milo and .....well the rest was played out in court. @7 lawyers, 200 witnesses and a sad ending for all. Milo had both ears cut off from Rads 'close cluster 7 finner' specially designed for wave type kz11 but sadly had his nuts ripped (they were only very small and hardly there anyway the compensation insurer claimed) as he got the rail of Milos boat wedged in his groin as he hit the shallow rubberised bottom.
The good thing is that it was only ever designed to make money and what a huge success that has shown to be...send me 2 investor packs Greg...I'm in for a squillion
hey Greg , I read with some interest that a 2m wave will need 200kw of continuous power, I read that as a hull with a good commodore V8 engine running at the right revs for that power output? I come back to the river surfing and ask what power the trawlers were outputting for the revs they were doing? Yes i know the hulls are different. Next I ask about the quality of water that is needed - are you talking fresh water, salt water or brackish water? What standard of filtration and chlorination will be required ? There's been some nasty little references to to water quality and I am sure that a minimum standard of purity will be required. So its easy enough to calculate that if we know the quantity of water that you will be continuously treating for public use?
There is no reason at all that this should not be examined well without malicious trolls trying to discredit the idea? If you don't like it at least have the gumption to put your name to the comment-we all are entitled to contribute our opinions in a socially acceptable way!
Hi Bob, I've put my name on this : Steve Shearer from Lennox Head.
Greg has put forth his vision for the future of surfing.
I've expressed my fundamental disagreement with this.
I think this is a moral and intellectual cul-de-sac for a great mind to be heading in.
It forfeits the great philosophical legacy left to us by the Hawaiians and thinkers like Tom Blake who imagined surfers living in harmony with nature and acting as a beacon to a world gone crazy with consumerism and cheap gratifications.
Instead, this vision puts us at the forefront of pay to play consumers willing to accept a branded artificial experience complete with Big Brother watching in order to achieve a simulated high.
If Greg wants to put this vision out there and not debate it or it's implications in the public sphere then that is his choice.
Some people want to know more about this vision than how much chlorine will be needed to sterilise the pool.
Respectfully, Steve.
I accept my position may be a minority one and others see it very differently.
Thanks Steve.
IMO Nice writing and has merit in its values.
I think that chlorine will be the least desirable of disinfectants as well - but oxygen by electrolysis may be ok.(albeit expensive). Good healthy debate respects everyone's opinions and everyone should benefit from it.
I do remember teaching my boys how to surf in the late eighties/early nineties by them learning how to wake board behind a jet-ski. I then started to tow them into waves and they ripped straight way. The next was them learning how to paddle in and rip on boards twice the size which they did pretty quickly. It was a means of fast tracking surfing skills.
my point - there's plenty of ways to learn to properly surf -which we are all entitled to do. I think that wave pools, wake boards, river surfing and any other novelty are useful. I think we all agree that they will never ever replace the purist aspect of surfing which you so well speak of.
Age also catches up with us all as does disability - there should and will be ways for us to keep fit and competent in the water.
Saying that the future of surfing is in a branded artificial experience is in my view also wrong and inappropriate for all of us that did the many years of purist effort. That does not mean that it has not got a place. Just IMO a stupid way of putting it. (sorry GW)
I respect the effort that people put into developing things but its not their place to ram their philosophy down our throats as what we should do. "hooking " people by marketing publicity and adds is a commercial necessity and that's just how things are. we don't have to like it - nor pretend to.
But wave pools will eventually be a part somehow in the future - so far I'm not getting a hard on from what I see and am getting told though?
I would spend to surf thought, if I could.
oh I already do but in uncertain conditions in natural conditions.
cheers
Bob
Greg Webber said:
"...surfing sells because it's a lifestyle not just because it's an action sport."
[insert own ironic comment here]
Bob-s, Some people just don't like putting there full name out on the internet, there not trolls. I personally would not ever use my full name on anything to do with the internet, I don't trust it, yes it is restricting, hey I don't even own a mobile, sorry mate every thing you consider right I consider stupid.
@shaun - as long as your don't use your choice as a way of being malicious -that's cool.
Some of us for the business we are in have no choice -stupid ? maybe so but that's 21st century communications for you. ( besides that I have seen my share of stupidity in my behaviour and work. Fortunately for me I was able to dodge all the bullets that came my way - some of them actually bolt projectiles that were not my fault)) I've used up 8 of my 9 lives I think in the choices I made in the work I do and the places that work put me in.
if i set up a pool with loads of snapper swimming in it, i mean how many fishos would come to catch just for $2 per head ? or they wouldn't give a rats, would they ? even if i provide free rods ? i know those pools very popular in japan
ljkarma: I have nice big answer for you and it's one of the most important questions to ask. Not that I can read the future but I'll have a good guess.
greg, are you OK mate?? Your last post just does not compute and is concerning...really!
Sorry mate, I had to go and drop my boys off so I was saying, I'll get back to that question soon.
Here's my answer, culled a bit:
Even if half of what you are saying comes true, then does that mean in your mind that every single wave pool on this future surfing earth will be identical?? It is precisely because some pools will be logo/brand/units/dollars/product oriented that others will be exactly the opposite. My hope is that a great range of surfing towns will evolve, reflecting the commercially controlled version you speak of, as well as the towns with the complete opposite feeling about it. A place where image and selling and logos are virtually banned, as well as everything in between. Some pools will be small scale fun park things while others will be sporting centers along with all manner of other sports. Some will probably be linked to live music with bands performing at the centre island while people ride waves and hang out. Some pools will be made for the pure spectacle, but if that is what it takes to make a pool with 3 meter waves, then who cares what brand is associated, so long as it's built... in fact we should thanks them! . These pool will be a new tool for society to steer developments as we surfers want. Values vary a lot and so how nice would it be to be able to shift from one surf town to the next where the approach, whether kitsch or cool, is so varied. Some people eat MacDonalds and some only eat organic fruits and vegetables and many will eat both, so the same huge range of taste will influence the style of the wave parks as they grow in number.
Laurie McGinness Northern Beaches
I just posted this on the other the other thread. You might like to respond
blindboy
38 minutes ago
I expect that given the scientific input the pool will work better than existing models but that is not a very high bar. If we consider the energy aspects for a moment there are a couple of issues that no-one has yet addressed. The energy of any moving object is directly proportional to its mass. The volume of a wave increases roughly as the cube of its height. Double the wave height and the mass is about eight times greater.....and so is your energy use. The energy also increases at the square of its forward speed. As we all know this is critical in wave quality. My point is the energy required to generate a large fast moving wave is going to be orders of magnitude greater than that necessary to produce a small slow moving one.
If the business model is based on attracting existing surfers rather than play pool people the energy costs rise dramatically. Then there is the fact that global energy costs are rising above the background inflation rate and are likely to continue to do so. The predicted pricing therefore would seem to be overly optimistic.
As I stated before I really dislike the wave pool concept for what might be called philosophical and environmental reasons but beyond that I would want to see a much more detailed energy analysis before I would believe that this type of structure can generate world class waves at anything less than prices prohibitive to widespread, regular use.
greg, good to hear you are OK and with correct priorities re getting your boys sorted.
Your response to my somewhat lame attempt at a humorous analogy of the future seems to align in many respects in s that you seem to acknowledge that "surfing " as we know it today as a lifestyle/sport will not be replicated in your vision, however there will be numerous variations of parks designed to fit the demographics and financial modelling of a particular environment. So my version of a park may become a reality in some part of the planet.
My main thrust is to get your 'take' on the core issue I am putting forward...ie that it will be , in effect, a new code or 'take' on surfing and although related (as is skateboarding and snowboarding) the concept allows for a totally new 'sport'
That is all I am trying to get you to recognise
I'll make a correction to that. If the wave height doubles and we assume it is shaped roughly like an equilateral triangle in cross section then the mass increases by four so it is a square relationship not a cube. But my point holds.
Seriously??
What is it with some of these comments, oh! no someone is thinking beyond the flame and inventing the light bulb?
This all sounds like the dorky people from the 1940's who freaked out when the bikini came about.
It will rock and this looks like it's a great Australian invention, and I wouldn't mind riding this baby.
It is not about building artificial trees with a fake fragrance, it's about pushing liquid for a cool ride.
You are onto it Laurie, but worse still, it's speed has to also increase, and to increase speed takes energy to resist inertia, but at least it only goes up by the square root of the factor. ie double wave height of boat wakes, and the width and crest lengths double as well, so that's 2 x 2 x 2 = 8, but then you have to multiply 8 by the square root of 2 which is about 1.4 so you end with an increased energy of 11 times per doubling of wave height. Luckily with super high efficiency,(we are on 96% already, with scope to shralp off a bit more) you only have a tiny bit of waste with this method.One more bit of luck is that even at 2 meters the energy cost is not so bad, about 200kw per wave. Greg
sorry Laurie, I missed the fact that you included speed, must be getting eye problems from too much screen!
" ...........how wave pools will revolutionise surfing". Last comment from the first paragraph above.
Deep breath, relax ..... okay.
Wave pools will never ever be surfing. It will be wave riding in a swimming pool and that has nothing to do with the million and one small and beautiful, wonderful, amazing, glorious, mind-blowing things that make up what surfing a raw ocean wave over a reef made by mother nature.
Sadly, surfing these days is a just commodity for sale and a good many people are trying their best to make the quick buck, nothing wrong with that but don't make the call everything done in the commerical world "surfing" or "it will be good for surfing", real surfing that is not that froth and bubble stuff called a world tour.
Fair dinkum, how long do we have to read this shit? Most of you guys in "the industry" are so far up each other's arses its a wonder you can ever sit down. Why not be honest and have an area on this site called "The Commercialisation and Exploitation of Surfing" and be done with it.
Our design is hugely efficient also in the fact that we are not lifting water to create a shock wave,we are not even pushing it side ways. By pushing downwards with gravity, we are causing the water molecules to accelerate to catch up to the ones at the back of the hull, the energy we use to do this is almost proportional to the wave we create. This makes this method over 10 times as efficient when comparing to lifting water and dropping it. Just compare lifting 500 cubic meters of water to make one 1.5 meter wave that lasts for 5 seconds, (the old way) verses pushing a 17 cubic meter hull 750mm into the water and dragging it. There is your comparison. ps I'm mainly doing wave pools to help fund my screw turbine power generator so they and all manner of other industries can have CO2 free power. The uni in tasmania will be starting research in january.
Floyd, you will have the choice and yes there will be all sorts of wave pools and artificial reefs and man made whatevers, but that will only accentuate how good the real thing is. Mate, I surfed on Lord Howe island by myself for a year, over coral with all manner of sea creatures, and I had some of the best surfing experiences of my life there, but if there is a pool twenty minutes away from me cranking out 2 meter barrels then I might just want to have the right to surf that as well. And what is surfing anyway?, I don't like contests at all but one of the best surfing moments in history was when Gavin Rudolf took a wave outside of Terry Fitzgerald to win the 1970 Smirnoff pro at sunset in 1970. He used pure instinct and had the best positive attitude you could ever have, verging on spiritual. BUT, had he not been forced by the hassle of the other guys competing, the criteria from a set of rules and the time limits of a heat, to make that in the moment decision to take off on something crazy, he, and we, would never have had that amazing moment.
thanks sanfran
GW
http://www.ritz-atro.de/2006/downloads/Wasserkraft_GB.pdf
is this what you mean by a screw turbine power generator?
ljkarma, I totally agree with you in sentiment, and can't stand some aspects of the "packaging" of surfing which is why this very medium, the wave pool will take that very way of doing it and give it a better place than nature. But as marketing and brands and money go nuts on the method, we surfers will end up with some of the most amazingly sculptured man made waves on earth. let's not forget, man created art, and these waves will be very useful form of art to actually help us to go more towards the experience of doing, as against the need to have. Neither approach is 100% the only way, but of all things, riding waves will certainly help us swing the balance back a bit.
Over the years,I have been lucky enough in my travels to surf some perfect mechanical waves, with so few people you got just about whatever wave you wanted, take Bingin for example, surfed it in the early eighties , most I surfed it with was 4 others, just sit in line and wait, surfed it every day for a week great wave but boring, never really looked at it again
Thanks BobS:
in some ways yes, it's like an Archimedes screw but works un-enclosed by any vessel or tube and revolves quite slowly but with extremely high torque. It might get around the Betz limit on turbines. It creates no head pressure, doesn't need a dam, is linear but can work in unlimited lengths and doesn't follow the normal rules. It should also operate in very low speed currents by using the mass of water as against the velocity. Off to watch a movie!
Good luck Greg, i have watched with interest for years, i wish i had 10 million + plus to invest, it would be cool to own. Sadly they will be large corporate facilities, maybe as you say someone like telstra could buy one, telstra boards tesltra boardshorts etc etc
As an investor, your business plan cannot be faulted, to make you rich when its listed on the asx i will be watching
Looks disgusting as a surfer & potential consumer the Hollywood Movie NORTH SHORE came to mind Future headline "Chinese surfer crowned world champ, drowned in Ocean in 3 ft surf",,,
Me & my Family & friends do not want to jostle with 1000's of people, for a day out, i would prefer to take the fish/mal or hand plane out on a deserted back beach, 20 crappy waves or the odd good one are free & there are no obnoxious sweaty fat people interfering with me or overpriced fun park prices, if i want to pay for perfection i will save my dollars & go OS for holidays.
Again like the previous base articles, as soon as the corporate types get hold of an idea or development every one is screwed.
I was so keen on the idea until i read this article, its already obvious, its about money corporate greed & future listing on the ASX & future delisting due to corporate crimes.
Greg if you make a make a nice little 6FT wave in western NSW in the middle of nowhere with a bar & a couple of Bures for accomadation,free bbq's, cafes & shops with limited numbers, without the corporate bullshit, i'll drive there & pay accordingly. Let me know i'll run it, i will not need a staff of 20, or a corporate headquarters of 100 earning more than the operators, Maybe franchise it
Have you done the numbers for a resort?????????
Gold coast themepark forget it, 100 smart small scale businesses that never go bankrupt through greed of the corporate excesses
Do not discount what you have Greg, do not let the corporates guide & take away all the money & potential.
Stick one out in the pilbara have a bar & restaurant & 24hr waves.
Company executives will kill your business, their greed does not equate to consumer demand, nor does their business development ideas equate to what joe average/consumer equate as a fun day out.
father & 2 sons 10 waves each $3 per wave $90 whilst the missus sits sipping overpriced coffees. Their goes 2 hours, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING, All i will be paying for is fat Sydney people to have an existence in an office 5 days a week
When your sorted let me know i'll take up the non commercial licence
the future surfing experience will be inline with how the waves are created-mechanical
A kilowatt is a unit of power not of energy so I assume that is continuous use. So to run one wave for ten hours would be 200kw/hrs. Since you have a number of waves that would then be multiplied. Given that you are thinking of multiple pools this is a huge amount of energy. What are your plans to offset your greenhouse emissions?
Climate change with rising sea levels and coral killing temperature changes represents a great threat to surfing's future.
Whoops missed a zero there that's 2000kw/hrs per wave per day.
Why are my comments censored Swellnet?
I don't like to be censored.
I wanted to comment to p-funk and and I can't?
What is up with Swellnet?
p-funk had the best comment on this thread
I'm dyin' to meetcha!
censored again - Swellnet - I protest!
OMG WE R ALL GOING 2 DIE BECUZ OF DA WAVEPOOLZ!!!1!one!
I think people are forgetting something here. They cost money. A lot of money. They will not be built of every corner of every block of every city. I reckon we'll be luckly to see one in each major city. And dont we have the highest number of surfing participants as a percentage of overall population on earth?
If you can honestly put your hand on your heart and tell me that you think this concept will have any tangible effect on your future surfing experience then I think you may need to up the Prozac dosage, have a lie down, maybe even give yourself a duffle and relax.
that is just plain FUNNY!
relax you guys, it's all going to happen irrespective of all the grizzles. and when they open, which one of you will have the guts to come up and say, "fuck! was I wrong!" after being barreled for longer than you have ever been, and having done the best turns since you were a kid.
Laurie, you were right the first time, yes width and height double but with these wakes the crest line doubles too., which creates the cube. So it's not the same length wall as we would presume with a normal wave comparison. It's X squared times the square root of X. The speed doesn't go up by two but the square root of 2 or whatever the factor was.
ljkarma: yes it will create a different type of surfing experience, and yes along with all manner of wave pool versions, they will all certainly miss some of the best things about surfing but they will also include one of the best aspects of surfing, perfect tubes. All you guys complaining will still want to try these pools, even if it merely entitles you to write them off, and you can then go back to your beach and complain to your mates about how fake it is. Then see how long it takes you to want to go back. After one week of dismal surf, and for $20, you're telling me you wont go? Go often and you might even start ripping. Wouldn't the thought of actually getting better, at whatever age, be slightly attractive? How fulfilling to be able to sense what you are doing on the wave and alter you approach from from one ride to the next and from one turn to the next. Or even just having the luxury to just stand there. Try to imagine it, it won't make you like everybody else, which it seems most people on these threads seem horrified of being.
Up until now, I could not of cared less whether these were built or not as there is no way that they could affect me in my life time and I wouldn't travel hundreds, probably thousands of km to surf your idea of paradise. If this thing happens it will the biggest change to the culture of surfing, I personally hope that you and your business partners go bankrupt, I mean no malice toward you but since you say it is going ahead regardless, then for the sake of surfing as we know it I hope you become penniless as warning to the next bloke who wants to make a few billion and control the fate of surfing.
I'm off to troll some real waves in the real world now.
after 6 months of slop and one on your back-door , I think you will muster the money and have the need,will and means to surf this synthetic wave.
My own view is that eBay auctions for prime time bookings will be happening . In a market economy those that can pay the most are expected to pay the most, or second level entrepreneurs will expect them to pay the most. For it to happen it may be 15% deposits on bookings that are auctioned off could happen. The money put into interest bearing trust and ACCC etc all satisfied by Tylerdurdens warnings of strict compliance.
There's lots of gimmicks that can be used to "add value" to parting with a few dollars and encourage pple to part with the $$. GW knows or can think of them all for the surfing industry?
That does two things
1. proves demand
2.proves initial income
3. then the investors may be stimulated by a booking roll rather than promises and vested interest enthusiasm.
If an when I ever try such a thing that is the very first thing that I would do. To find a baseline of reality to proceed. - a online auction of prime-time and off-time booking options. Money in trust administered by a third independent party.
put a "expression of interest" booking schedule out there ( with research and compliance) and you just might get a pleasant surprise? that advice comes with a cost -you acknowledge it was not your idea.
Shaun - I hope you get a wave today. Actually I know about your misgiving in thinking that someone might control our surfing activities. But remember how everyone hated Bill gates and Microsoft? Power or the feeling of it does corrupt - most people just cant handle the social responsibility that comes with it and want to use it a lame excuse to prop up a defective and limp personality?
Interesting story,not sure if you have ever heard of Carl Eckstrom,but I had the pleasure to meet and check out his life works,a couple of years ago in california.
he was responsible for the design of the Flow rider,patented asymetric s/bds in the early 60's,and is considered one of the fiest design minds in the world.
he showed me his wave pool ide which had been commissioned by Sultan of Dubai to design and build the worlds biggest wave pool,in which there were to be tropical island/ resorts in the middle of the ....Lake/pool.....the cost was to be billions and the concept was to build about a 10K square pool,build 4 big resorts in the middle of the pool,palm trees,beaches and all,and you could have your pick which resort to stay at based on what kind of wave you wanted to surf. There would be all kinds of different waves even for kids.
So the idea was to have 4 big electric trains running around the outside of the pool,with a plough type attachment on the inside of the wall creating swell...not unlike GW and Kellys.....there is miniscule compared to carls....the drawings of the project are incredible and the only thing that stopped it was the GFC,and lack of $'s to create a 5 star surf camp in dubai,but ya can take ya familly.
I wonder if Carl patented his idea,as he has been ripped off on a lot of his work.......and as he is now older and wiser...I wonder????
ahh the benefactor that i spoke of on the other thread. patents for their worth have a place when its about coupling the rear wing edges with the rudder as the Wright Bros. did to win a competition. That was their idea based on watching seagulls turn in flight without "crashing" as all aircraft had done (including them) till then.
fair call for a right to get royalties on "crackin it".
Spuce goose man got his fathers wealth who worked out how to drill rock cheaply and quickly - he negotiated a % of all the oil from the wells that his device drilled. Henry ford paved the way for the need for the oil.
Now talking synthetic waves - what do you call the supabank? Sand pumped across the tweed to nourish the gold coast beaches is one of the most unsustainable process's as it stands. Yet surfers sit in the swarm 200 - 300 at a time. Be honest Shaun -do you surf there when you can? How many people know that 10% of the coal that is burnt for generating the electricity that the supa bank needs at a coal burning power plant actually moves the sand across the tweed? Clearly unsustainable by any measure. Having wind, wave and solar energy on site to pump whilst the waves move, wind blows and sun shines is what must happen - only if you don't like 90% coal burnt to do nothing but cause damage to the environment? Now to be clear - for every tonne of coal that is burnt to generate the electricity that the pumps that feed sand to the supa bank use only 10% of that coal burnt energy actually is represented in energising slurry moving out of the pipe at dbar and snapper.
Thats one damm expensive bit of surfing infrastructure for our pleasure? Many qualified people say that burning that coal adds to the loss of the sand on the gold coast.
So that should be a pointer to what can and should power these pools - I should declare that I have been doing formal and informal research into coastal sustainability now and for the past ten years and in one way or another for all my life. I am part of a not for profit and non government organisation and am watching wave generation techniques with great interest - at some time expressions of interest may be called to fill a small role in a comprehensive scheme. That is public and global expressions of interest. So do your best to compete!
bob s. mate you are one cool dude.your depth of knowledge is unreal.and you would be an asset to any company....G W get this man on your team !
Greg I don't think it is fear of anything personal that prompts so many of us to have serious reservations. This is a game changer on a scale that exceeds anything that has yet happened to surfing. It makes "surfing" available to a market hundreds of times larger than its existing base. It takes an open skill, that is one that deals with an ever changing situation, and turns it into a closed skill, one dealing with the same situation over and over again. It also reduces the skill set, no need to read the ocean or deal with difficult sections. It can very quickly become the dominant form of the sport and attract millions of new adherents (customers!) who will then increase crowd numbers at natural surf spots. It will almost certainly turn professional surfing into a spectator sport ......and so on.
Now this may be your vision of the future of surfing but it is not mine nor that of many others, nor do we want to add to the environmental problems that already exist in energy and water management. I can admire the determination and analytical skills that have enabled you to develop this technology but I doubt if I will ever believe it worthwhile.
No Bob never surfed the super bank, live in vicco. But when I have been up that way have enjoyed uncrowded surf at the surrounding break, as one of the locals down the coast observed that it was a blessing as soon as a swell arrived all the young surfers made a beeline for the superbank leaving the local point to the more laid back crew, this will not happen with the wave pools, the superbank costs nothing to surf, people being people will always take the free option, hopefully the first one is set up on a coast that has its best season for decades and they go broke, sorry i have no empathy for the investors as they have none for me.
Thanks victor ( I will take that as a compliment) funny thing though -my dads name was Victor and he taught me from when I could listen and understand that if I was good enough to work for someone else I was was good enough to work for myself. So from when I could (13) I did. Working for others thereafter for money or to be trained and learn. ( 13 was my own lawn mowing run - i bought and assembled every "airfix" model that they made. I had every chemical in my lab and yes tried the sniff test when the books said it was a old school aesthetic. F..science , blastlab and mythbusters was my backyard because mowing lawns then working in a chem lab supplied me with everything I needed for my experiments. funkin science, blast lab and mythbusters are a great way to learn now. I used up my first three lives before 18 - one in cyclone swell on the nobbies reef, one playing "pretty fireball" with trinitroglycerine drops on a hotplate and the other an industrial major spill of chorine gas I tried to turn off as a hose had burst. Now you've started me by the compliment!!! found my vulnerabilty to open up by flattering me. I,out of respect for people who passed good information on to me try to pass it on to others. ( dont play with things that are dangerous -there easier safer ways to learn)
Shaun, there are some qualified people that saying burning coal is costing us the earth. So no, the supabank in that consideration is a very expensive place to surf . We are just passing the cost on to future generations in the "unsustainable energy" school of thought. Now a wave energy powered pump already exists in many forms, that should be active doing nay pumping of sand for nourishment wherever properties are at stake. I share your feelings for companies as they have no empathy -when the sole goal is money people and the planet are then treated as "collateral damage". They cannot be trusted to be "self regulating" and despite all the nice words do terrible things as consequences to their everyday operations.
But saying that a good lecture to watch is " morals of trade" on youtube
the rocky mountains institute may also be a bit self serving but there is much to listen and learn from Amory Lovens lecture.
Also
Check out carnegie wave power an ausssi company. It just seems a no-brainer to me that such devices that use wave energy to pump water must be used for reverse osmosis (fresh water from ocean water) or sand nourishment pumping.. The water pressure is the output from the device and does not have any losses (other than pipes friction , bends etc ) in conversions to transport the energy to its end use. Who knows where no reefs and banks exist but plenty of swell then this swell driven energy may create waves in a synthetic environment?
http://www.carnegiewave.com/
no comments from surfing legends yet,except for maurice,how about some views from m.r. t+n carroll,big simon,m potter,rabbit,shauntomson,lynch,kanga cairns the guys from thestart of pro surfing, would like to hear from you fellas....
Sorry Bob, when you asked if I surfed the superbank i didn't actually get your question as you were talking about energy used and damage to the enviroment, so my mind turned off and went into blabla land. I mean no insult to you, but I just don't beleive in climate change the way you do , I see the climate as always changing, adapt and go with it. Every thing is part of nature, as man is nature so anything that he makes is natural, just as a beaver makes a dam.
You could incorporate the wave pool with a nuclear power plant, clean energy and warm water.
what am I doing ? Ive got a post grad research thesis to write up , work to do for people and a family that has demands on me. I guess you don't need to be Sherlock to see where my passion is .Watch this space if I can keep the effort up. It will not be power, greed or wealth that is my motivation though.Then at 64 I'm running out of years to do what I really love -create with a passion. It will be a boon for the pro's -can you imagine how many manoeuvre's they can do over and over agin -until its a true perfect form of human artistic expression that does merge with a natural thing -moving water that falls. enough of the distraction -for the moment. btw if you are reading kelly i was the guy you chatted with outside the surfest dinner about 2000 - I'm sorry about the bum steer that I gave you with the other guys business card. we all live and learn? As you have said publicly -"it put investors interests for wave pools back by years" (-if not a generation.) as kyle says - "dammit cartman!"
cartman retorts
Stan, don't you know the first law of physics? Anything that's fun costs at least eight dollars.
South Park tum ting! ( or ca ching?)
So Bob, what is your thesis subject?
Just as I was to get to work!
oh no , I gave the wrong impression shaun . I didn't say that i was a climate change believer,
i said "Shaun, there are some qualified people that saying burning coal is costing us the earth" but i do know that coastal erosion is a serious problem for many people and their assets and solutions have to be found - but many think that burning coal contributes to that.
How did you know I am working on a community owned comprehensive water sports facility that is powered by a nuclear power plant?
now my covers been blown.
Why community owned - because we pay for the electricity -too much already. go to amery lovins lecture on the "morals of trade' to learn about "natural capitalism"
I'm not here to try and distract from Greg or Kelly - i see commerce as an important if not paramount functioning role in achievement. But left to their own devices business has not given us much to be confident in them for? wanna no-doc loan? they both have a role to play I hope?
Both of them may have something important to contribute but community will rule as it is the one that holds the assets and the money that business wants .
Al gore and his AI truth cost me two to three years in my research as it could not be neglected. I'm staying right away from that -except I think the idea of planning for 100 years is too much at odds with generational planning and buildings in our economy were updates every 25 years is enough. Ive got a book written for the US government by the best minds it could muster in1987. They said 1500mm SLR by 2100. The upper limit is now 900mm. So it could be a non acceleration of 3mm/yr or less then 300mm? But David Attenbourough last night on the Antarctic was interesting .
No I am not a skeptic or a believer and trying hard to be a learner and use the best of what we have now to the best purposes. enough of this distraction -back to word salad for an examiner and try and convince him i know what i am talking about. This more fun though ! you'll have me at my weakest -wanting to be distracted by what I love to do!
Now how do we mobilise 3.5 million surfers in Australia to tell the government what we want? (ok most of us maybe?) forget the pool idea - to be serious it must be a full size clone or synthetic replica of say every point of NOOSA. look feel and be the same including the environment - a different break for everybody working 24/7 . yes same salt water similar rocks and trees , critters and micro climate . yes you have to paddle as well.
shit this is an outcome of my thesis that wont get my study finished and published but I dont think we can let the NSW government sell of the present generators so we have to go begging to a bank to use land and facilities that were earmarked for community water sports use 30 years ago. Earthworks and diversion works approvals all in place. last government premiers department told me I was 40% there with the original white water kayaking course people on the board! They and many other are including surflifesaving -you name a water sports or beach user they are all stakeholders in this initiative. How many more in NSW want to stand up and be counted to make it happen? yes maybe even a round pool - but its not in the spirit of a real natural experience exactly the same as the wild? but possible?
I should have finished a page on the past rock shelves that are the result of the past 9000 years of slr in writing this but you can see where my passion is?
will someone please tell me to rack off as I am obviously obsessed with the project.
So, what's your thesis subject?
Is the culture taken out of surfing when there are changes in board materials, shape, number of fins etc???.... No???....... Well why is an artificial wave any different??? If culture is sticking with original ideas we would all be riding wooden planks, minus leggies and wax..... sound fun?
It's called progress! Just like the thruster, tow-ins, carbon-fibre fins, etc. Boards change without protest, so why not waves?
Bob, I can tell your a smart man, way above my intellect. But mate, have you got a drinking problem?
It was originally “ the reinvention of south newcastle beach.â€
Now if I can help it –it will be cloning Noosa and all its breaks –full size 24/7. Site and water available right now and being wasted causing environment problems. A small weber or slater pool may be a quick win but later redundant part of the scheme?
http://www.barbusters.com.au/template/files/6383/sth-pacific-meets%20-ne...(1).pdf is an early work.
Involving a mega park over a large development within the cliffs ( that constantly fall. )The suitable rock excavated was to form artificial headland that gave certainty to surfing and a shape maybe like Bondi'S headlands -but good underwater bathymetry for surfing. . Now al gore and a few more people said forget it in Newcastle and i tend to agree until 2100 . But the topic is now a "future management plan for the newcastle beach precinct"
This paper got me presenting at a tourism , geomorphology and the environment conference in Malta and that got me 6 weeks work looking for roman relics under the water in Libya.
It sort of lost direction as Newcastle is a very parochial place and such reinvention is for the year 2100. Meanwhile one of the world’s best beaches for a beach languishes.
The surfing and inside cliff development ( large park over) is still an outcome -but applying the principles of measuring this beach and every bit of geology, geomorphology and infrastructure by laser , lidar and photo has given me the skills to know what to do to clone and "port" say Noosa heads, crescent heads or Byron Pass to downstream from a Nuke PP. That will be the best outcome. Being able to 3d model any environment down to the last rock under or above water is the main practical skill learnt.. You can see the start of this at the following link.
http://www.surfingramps.com.au/documents/NewcastlePoint_RS_2011.pdf
So now I’m becoming an expert on the formation of that beach from the time that glossopherous (a leaf fossil found in Africa, India , Sth America and Newcastle beach) grew there and when they were gwandaland and it’s the evidence that they were all joined together,
To keep motivated I think that knowing every single thing about one beach will help when I want to show that any beach and environment can be fully cloned downstream and below a nuclear power plant. Its more like the process of information gathering that is needed to start to think about doing such a thing. At the moment coal burning plants are available with plans previously approved for downstream activity. But for community run facilities and that can and should be revived. That doesn’t mean that business and commerce don’t get involved. It also doesn’t mean anyone spending time making it happen doesn’t get paid. Just another model that large sports grounds already work under.
You can see another year or two waste of time on youtube when I analysed every pixel of old 19th century photos. just search the words HISTORY NEWCASTLE BEACH on youtube they are videos of then to now -like a time tunnel. Theres also a neat 1968 super 8 movie there under POWERSTATIONWATERSLIDE or go to
http://uoncc.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/uon50-university-surfriders-club-f...
The other things that i examined in detail are artificial reefs and sand sweeping , bed levelling or plowing. Including some time on the Strathclyde –when I used up another lif . I was onboard excavating out a new ferry berth and every excavation stroke hit an immovable object that stopped a 1000 tonne vessel dead in its tracks. We were 50 m away from a ww2 1000lb bomb that was stuck in the mud and hitting it very hard with a dragline bucket. Oops ?
Where’s my support for the community to take theNSW government on about our land and water rights downstream of Eraring power plant? Send me your email if you want some info on this . yes there may be room in it for gregs or whoevers waves but that too premature to say and certainly not my call.
Sorry Stu and Greg - tried my best to refrain myself and don’t want anything I have written to be taken in any way as self-promoting. There may a quick way forward in this if every water sports person in NSW says that it should be. Message me with your email for the info pack?
So have I left everyone behind?
Bob, I can tell your a smart man, way above my intellect. But mate, have you got a drinking problem?
ROTFLMAO
I THINK I HAVE LEFT YOU BEHIND - i wish it were a drinking problem . My entire life I have always been driven to achieve what i visualise and then get fully obsessed to achieve it.
Don't for a moment think that I am above anyone's intellect. Its a matter of anyone wanting to know things that makes them capable.My mentality is that i cannot stop wanting to know and learn. Always have been that way and always will be. I then feel good if I can help others learn as well. There must a term for it that resembles "alcoholic"? Everyone who knows me knows me for who I am.
Chef: Don't do drugs kids. There is a time and place for everything. It's called college.
South Park strum-strim!
just as artificial reefs got a title in the forum - it might be usefull to have one for wavepools?
sorry didnt mean to overwhelm anybody with too much info -but writing up stuff is hard and you guys just copped a great deal of what's going on! but the powerplant stuff is real and can happen NOW.
IF WE WANT IT TOO!!
Yeah bob you have overwhelmed me but keep on going your doing a great job
wow.. um, i'll have whatever bobs having, maybe just at a lower dosage rate for starters
therealneil - thats a pretty common reaction - it took me a number of years not to be daunted by it.
Nothing is new under the sun .........
her boyfriend left her , she got depressed and wrote that song. One of my favourites.
look at the other topic for my own personal view of a cloned surfing location , meant for a totally different market and use than wave pools. Each has their place and each will be built in one form or the other.
It sound to me like Bob is dialed in. I still want to buy an island in Fiji, a Caterpillar D-8 w/snorkel, and have at it!
All I need is someone with the knowledge of Bob, and we're off to the races.
I did mention financial backing didn't I?
I tried snowboarding for the first time last year, but I wasn't that impressed. Going down the mountain was fun. Being corralled into lines like cattle and having every red cent of my cash stitched up in every way possible had me wishing the weekend was done .
I'd hate to see surfing go the same way.
and If GW still thinks the best waves are going to the best surfers I'd like to go surfing in that place!
Sure thats how it once was, but now the percentage of guys with just enough ability to go left or right and hopefully wiggle in a turn have dwarfed our lineups. These guys got frustrated at the better surfers and there ability to position . In turn they have chosen to ignore any hierarchy that may have existed, simply because they could never be part of it without EARNING their spot.
Who was it that said, "the meek shall inherit the earth?"
It's like this: Sometimes it's nice to go for a walk, sometimes it's nice to go for a drive. Ocean and pool surfing can be compared in a similar way. If you're worried about a surfing population explosion in the ocean, and we all are, then isn't that just greed, wanting it all for yourself? The art of riding a wave is always going to be beyond the skill level of Joe Average anyway so I personally don't think the world will fill with surfers. Greg, you know this is a good idea, just be patient with anyone that has fear of change built into their psyche. I'm in, and the amount of comments on this thread suggest plenty of others will be too. Also, I'm beyond impressed with your next project.
I'd be interested to see a survey of people for/against the wave pool idea, based on their location.
Gut feel tells me people living in reasonably close proximity to a coastline with consistently good waves don't like the wave pool idea.
On the other hand, I reckon people who do like the idea either live a reasonable distance from the surf, or they live near a coastline where 'good quality' waves occur less frequently.
@thernalben. Ive been trying to design a survey that could quantify what money and time working people put to surfing and how often they get the reward of how many waves. I believe that if the circumstances were close enough to a organic natural environment to be acceptable -no-one should know the difference.
A natural environment is not perfect and an existing lake is not either. The consistency and certainty of waves I believe will be what people travel for (oh they already do don;t they) Keep the winds always offshore or downwards then who cares how the waves were made -especially of they are recycled waste energy.
waves on tap at any natural location is what people travel for -when they exist. parking lots far away and walking/bikes the best means of transport, short distances from public transport and a discount if you travel that way.
organic wholesome and enjoyable for the most number of people for the most number of water borne activities is my vision. yes room for a weber and a slater "black run' as well for the advanced and the experts.
Its a paradigm shift in the way that people can expect to get certainty of quality and quantity for their choice of water sport. 'paradigm shift water dynamics" is name of interest for me?
A survey -great idea and I'm struggling with the right questions for some time now. I've got quotes between $50 to $ 100k and they are studies that must be done well to qualify for any funding or investor interest.
shoredump: Thanks! It's funny how more choice than less still irritates people. Guess it's to do with the identity that's defined by the values that our predisposition for polarizing seems to favor.
For the anti-pool brigade: My guess is that the more we surf pools, even if the waves are more perfect than what's in nature, the more we will value all of those very qualities that the pools will never provide. I think we will see it more clearly than ever before. A parallel would be choosing between two identical boards, one hand shaped by a master shaper, and the other a perfect identical popout of the master shape. I'd choose the hand made one any day. But if you we're stuck on a desert island with perfect waves, but only one board to choose from, would you choose the handshape if it was much more likely to break in half than the popout? values shift quickly when circumstances vary.
Greg, In business its supposed to be called healthy competition. in politics its called "the adversarial system" and the people who are supposed to be the best in leading us practice it the most -in parliament.
What sort of message does that give to young people. One of my favourite sayings is "the first casualty of any adversarial situation ends up being the truth?" Tribalism seems part of us and the extinct of the society on Easter island may have been the result of a pathogenic obsession with tribes or factions trying to out compete each other in "statue building" -resulting in the total failure of the eco system and its ability to sustain anybody there ( building too many statues to prove who could built the biggest and best).
Clearly there are situations when competition not cooperation is unhealthy and unsustainable. Sometimes a free market cannot be trusted to be "self regulating"?
Anyway as a bit of relief to this topic I offer my top boffin and his latest innovation - everyone may as well give up in light of his findings?
&feature=relatedNow remember any idea thieves out there - the "girdle spring" is a protected species.
Sorry about the excess words but I'm supposed to writing things so everyone has to suffer?
Talk is cheap Bob. And that is all you are doing, and a lot of it. Greg is 'doing', you are just rambling on about your dreams trying to sound intelligent.
LOL Ive been hoping that some one would set me straight! I am supposed to be writing a thesis and instead poking my nose in where maybe it dont belong or might not be wanted -too much. Like i said apologies for the word salad but you have got to be under pressure to produce "word salad" to know where my head is at the moment. It really really gives me the sh...ts to write as if my thesis depends on it - maybe too much trying to sound intelligent?
But i keep getting told write ,write write. I will not be distracted by this forum as much as I have
thanks for the 'wakeup" call DS. (I did need it)
Coome -on though the video is a crack up? You can see in his eyes when he's trying to not crack up himself. I believe he did that all "off the top of his head" I reckin thats a bit of word salading at its best.
again thanks for the reality check.
Good call GS.
If you read all my posts you should see that I am onside with what greg and kelly are doing!
Greg, One thing puzzles ...if you are not doing this for the money ( you seem to have endless answers and calculations of numbers needed to turn a buck on this), why not just keep riding the Clarence the way you say you have for years.
Either sit and wait for a boat or go hire one with the royalties GSI pay you for boards you do not have to spend a second on. Why spend a kings ransom (being, your or Government or rich backers money) potentially damage the environment and attract investors with not a care in the world about damaging the very cultural heritage (you know, the one that put you in your privileged position) if making money is not your driving force.
If it is at least be honest about it. Slater's agenda is not clear but one thing he keeps talking about is that he can't wait to see himself and his mates have fun. He maybe does not want to join you because you two have different agendas??
Of course , both are in it for money as thats how things happen and the other system was proven not to work. There is nothing wrong at all for them being rewarded properly for what they do and no need for them to even defend it.
karma. potentially damage the enviroment,how?
Bob,
Didn't say there was anything wrong with being in it for the money but there are a lot of people on here questioning the whole basis of these wave parks and it would be honest and fair to all if greg stated his position behind his paaion.
Victor,
A short read of the many posts on the two threads re this subject would reveal numerous questions re the amount of power required to run these things and that amounts to carbon offsets and challenges to future environmental stability. It is a really big question that has not been answered in any detail but must be at least roughly mdelled by Greg and his experts. If it is, as has been put forward, a huge enegry consumer to run these things then a least say so.
I am not against any of this, just asking that questions be answered honestly and openly so such an important debate can be held in open surrounds and not based only 'part' of the story. Why, as a reader, would you want any less?
likarma., I think it can be taken for granted that in the business world money is a necessity if not a motive. We cant be a critic if its a motive unless its illegal and immoral? Its anyone's own business what their break-up of motives are? of course business sustainability is paramount for anything. Our Not for profit recognises that for the commercial part of the triple bottom line. Without it there NOTHING.
Environment and energy - well that's what the big bad carbon tax is for -offsets for industry to ensure sustainability. Again a business that works legally in the market place has no apologies to make within that framework. ( I don't have any opinion on the tax BTW)
better leave it at that or be accused of talking too much! Actually GS - passing examiners scrutiny is all about fooling them that you are intelligent and know what you are talking about. Nice to be bought back to earth once in a while. :) you've blown my cover!
Ok bob, but the question was directed to Greg, so please let him answer it without your justification. He is a big boy bob and I am sure can speak on some of these questions himself, that is if you put your hands in your pockets for 10 minutes and cover up you keyboard and give it a well deserved rest.
Karma, I tend to agree with you. In my opinion, first and foremost Greg is doing this for the money and way second he is doing it for some sort of service to the surfing community.
However, Greg would like you to think it is the other way round.
Greg has already said he would not respond to any of my posts because I didn't appreciate the very obvious in that a surfer would be swept back towards the center island when they fell off, so I am in no danger of him replying here to dispute this.
By the way, I would be all for wave pools if they provided a genuinely great experience.
For example, say a bigger, wider, longer version of the sunway lagoon that gave you a 4-6 foot wave that ran straight down the line for 500m...now that is something I would pay money for. It is not going to happen because of the incredible start up and ongoing costs but if it was built then I would be the first one on it.
A circular wave with a background zinging past you and potential for 10 person pile ups, not to mention tricky entry and exits as you swirl around in circles....doesn't inspire me.
I think Greg has to realise that it is the total experience that people will pay for, not just the perfect wave.
I am sure that he can reproduce a larger version of what he produces in the test pool but ultimately if you get motion sickness surfing the thing, you are involved in a 10 person pile up or every time you fall off you get stuck in orbit halfway out in flat water then ultimately nobody will come back for a second time.
These are Kelly's problems too but until the first surfer catches a wave on one he cannot say they will not happen.
Therefore he is not really in a position to make extravagant statements about how awesomely financially successful the thing will be.
I promise to behave myself!
:)
tylerdurde,
well let us hope Greg sees that we are not trying to knock him down and that a good 'warts and all' debate is most productive way to air the whole scenario. Not that is my business and not being a smart arse but you posts maybe will get more cred if you drop the 'dizzie miss lizzie, bit, for although it may be an issue, there are a heap more that come to mind prior to that being considered.
i would think that if making money is Greg's main priority, then the Euro debt crisis looms way larger in the minds of those with the type of capital he requires at this time and possibly for some time to come. The guy Greg talks of who wants one for personal use aint gunna make Greg rich, unless he gets a royalty for every wave ridden and at best would be a test case for construction and running costs, not to mention a mirad of issues that would get flushed out (excuse the pun).
One only has to look at the various shots from the Clarence to see how freekin shallow it is right under that little lip and that the wipeouts shown are pretty brutal for a 500mm wave. So what does Greg say about that height to depth ratio in his modelling because it has to be a way different compound equation to real top to bottom barrelling wave which are normally created by sharp rise of bottom contour from deep to shallow that pushes the wave up and trips it over, often then pushing into deeper water or over a calmer reef, not onto a dry rubberised beach...boinggg, bounce , bounce.
Calling Greg, calling Greg, quick get in while Bob has been sent to the corner and writes out 5000 times that he will behave himself...ooops her comes the teacher..
I think you guys should give this webber bloke a bit of slack, I mean he is trying to give something back to surfing like Rip Curl, Quicksilver and Billabong did.
ljk , This system that Greg has designed is so far ahead of other systems " energy wise " that i suspect you should check your own garden , before tending to others . take this from someone that works in energy efficiency . Direct displacement driven from a fixed surface is the best way to manipulate waves . Most/All other concepts until this rely on water pumped then released with gravity , they are astronimically in- efficient . As for trying to couple to other free sources , well apart from solar and windturbine ( which in themselves are unreliable ) the rest are more trouble than they are worth ( in saying that diverse generational systems can and will be a nightmare to work on in the near future ) .
But back to Surfing .
Bob , you need a Project .
Greg , read ? your message ?
Tyler = WWTDD {Not a lot , too busy being Negative }. lol
Southey,
yes that is right. I need to spend more time on the ones in progress than
get distracted by something i am obviously passionate and obsessed with right now..
One of those may I hope have a place in it in the medium to long term future for
Greg's innovation and adaptation of river surfing.or wake-riding.
thanks for the astute advice. same for goingsouth.
(remember half the battle in passing examiners scrutiny is bluffing them that you know as much or more than they do - pull it off and you get credits and distinctions -that's my line and I'm sticking to it))
regards
Bob
back again. I will eventually answer all of your questions and I'm confident that you will all be happy about every aspect of the project, it's consequences in all manner of ways, the comparative energy costs, the water type to be used, how it will influence the future of surfing, (after looking at what surfing really was and is now), how competition will change, and how attitudes might shift in the real surf as a result of contests eventually leaving the ocean, where they shouldn't be anyway. It's just going to take time, but this thread has helped me to define what I know, but have yet to express. I kind of need to have a pool built before I'm entitled to say some of it. As for money, I have one much bigger project to fund, that is about generating power from rivers without damming them. I had to do this first. If that works to the scale that I think it will, then some important changes are possible. I'll get back on later, but really appreciate every comment even, the crazy ones that make no sense. I'll try to be more diplomatic, but I can't stand it when people hide their true feelings behind feigned objectivity, so if I ask any of you what planet are you on??, I'm fine if you use the same method of expression back to me. I've got five pretty crazy brothers so there is nothing I haven't heard.
Got something against wake cable parks too? Artificial entertainment is already here. Would you rather a new wave pool or American food chain in the Western suburbs of NSW?
I would be pleased to see your wave pool open.
Hi Greg
- fantastic read.
stoked you are a getting closer to realising your concept.
Looking forward to surfing it
Thanks Fishheadsushi, and Thanks Andy Pitt, appreciate it. How are your reef studies going??
Thanks Fishheadsushi, and Thanks Andy Pitt, appreciate it. How are your reef studies going??
Thanks southey as well re energy figures,
and whoever it was who mentioned the motor car power equivalent was close to correct.
as for any issue with regard to gradient, well, after making lots and lots of tiny waves and lots and lots of medium sized waves, and quite simply by checking the gradient at the points at which nicely shaped waves occur we've created a variable contour that will make the whole range at different wave heights.
Greg, first of all love the concept. Think it is a brilliant idea and hopefully you can implement everything you've said into the park if everything comes together regarding investors, engineers, builders etc.
But you have me wondering. How come you have so much time as to be able to answer everyone's questions on these forums? I personally would have thought with a project of this scale you would be putting all of your time and effort into getting the project up and running and fine-tuning everything?
However if this forum thread is to stimulate public interest with the view of gaining private investors then that would make sense. However it also shows then that you are having issues with capital raising and thus may undermine the very purpose of this discussion and may cause potential investors to become wary about where to put their money.
Like I said mate would be really good for everything to come together for you here in Australia. I presume your patent is standard and thus will leave you with at least 10 years to get it sorted before someone else beats you to it. Go for it mate!! Forget the forums!
Call me paranoid - but I'm getting a feeling that I'm being stalked? Greg, many people over a long time have tried to do power from flowing water. The learning from the investigations I have been doing over a long time is that the return for investment just has not existed for large or even medium scale. That's from many sources including r&D within the industry whose existence depends on it. That's not to say that something doesn't exist - just that many boffins and accountants have lost their hair (become eggheads?) over a very long time without success. But I wish you luck on that because if it can exist then I have a place for it already-part of a long term investigation and strategy and would love to be kept well informed. But believe me many serious issues exist for such a thing and ROI is only one of them. Good luck with that you will deserve all you get if you succeed. Nothing wrong at all with ambition and a wish for commercial success. Its got to be better than coal seam gas for any detractors!
http://www.assob.com.au is place where innovative and well prepared submissions can get funded.
hi Bob, well it's one of those designs that comes from the opposite direction of normal thought. After 10 years of trying to work out how to create a controllable movement from individual waves, I ended up looking at the ocean during a flight from zero to 10,000ft or so and at one point realized that I had been making a mistake by trying to utilize one wave at a time. The random nature of waves gets minimized the more waves you use, so I thought we have to have really long devises that turn very slowly. The shape of it is also counter intuitive. But I tested it in a river and it rotates with very high torque and low revs. To stop the thing from spinning would be next to impossible when 100m long by 3m in diameter in a river of as low as 0.5 m/s velocity. Effectively the water can't form a head around a high pressure zone, and so the entire body of the turbine has equal pressure throughout it's length. The crossectional drag is super low too. who knows.
thanks re site.
I was doing 18 hour days for a week while the story was running at it's peak. It has also helped me to hone my answers to some of the understandably negative questions.
elijay1 that was for you.
I first came across this wavepool idea a few years back and i was like, why didn't i think of that? As a teenager i had this dream that reoccurred almost nightly, it was wallis lake south of forster but it was circular and there was a wave breaking in a circular motion around this lake/pool, perfect waves breaking infinately with only me to catch them. This was the early 90's back when the green iguana was the shit! I ended up in lismore doing coastal management and doing a project on an artificial reef for byron bay back in the mid 90's but tropical cyclone gavin and his mate justin ensured focus was lost and i dropped out, project unfinished. I am a huge fan of the webber clan and liquid time is an awesome movie. Gregs wavepool is a fantastic idea. I can't understand some of the criticism from self labeled "soul surfers" who think this concept will destroy surfing by creating an army of zombie surfers ready to steal your local break. What a load of rubbish from simple minded hacks who lack vision. Artificial reefs and wave pools can bring pleasure to the masses and from what i understand, at a fair price. I just can't understand the negativity from some of the paranoid pessimists here? How many people who have never surfed are going to pay to get cleaned up by a perfect barrel? How many people who already surf will froth when they see this beast up and running?