Margaret River Pro: Finals Day
Margaret River Pro: Finals Day
We - that is, us fans and critics - give JMD a very hard time for any perceived deficiencies in calls or judgements that seem to us to run counter to the ethics of the sport, as we define them. Primarily, getting the best surfers in the best waves. It's only fair then, that we give her plaudits for staring down a Swiss cheese forecast and waiting until the last moment to pull the trigger on an epic Finals Day. Using overlapping heats right up to the Semi-Finals to plough through the requisite eighteen heats of surfing.
Recency bias plays a bigger role in pro surfing than any other sport. We remember the most recent thing that happened, and if that is an epic day, then all that has gone before it, no matter how dire, is completely forgotten. Do you remember what happened two days ago? The tight, controversial JJF/Medina heat, the emotional Sammy Pupo, blubbering so hard in Portuguese he could barely get the words out.
Be honest.
It's all gone now, isn't it?
Both Pupo brothers off tour, another blazing Finals Day from John, almost era-defining apart from an even more incredible composed, radical, innovative performance from Jack Robinson to take all the marbles home.
Five contests down, two have wrapped on the second last day of the waiting period, three on the last day, including Margarets which endured small waves and unseasonably warm weather for all but the final day (WSL/Hughes)
6 - 8 foot and offshore, occasionally lumbering and slopey, an end section that has made a type of Russian roulette artform out of the closeout reo, was the arena Main Break offered for the day. Positioning, wave selection, repertoire, ability to ride out of heavy water still standing, all offered tremendous theatrics. As the stakes and storylines of the cut were resolved, first on the men's side and then on the women's we were treated to an even greater narrative arc of conflict resolution. Two of the greats, head to head, in a Final, in pumping surf.
It was shocking to me that Jack Robbo had a 2-0 record against John before they sorted out their business in the Final. Shocking they had only met twice since Jack came on tour in 2021, and doubly so that he had won both encounters. More on that epic Final in a minute, we need to deal with other matters.
Someone had to come from deep behind the cut line and rescue themselves with heroic performances. I'd tipped Caio for that role, but it ended up being Seth Moniz, helped initially by a very sleepy showing from his good pal Ethan Ewing, who meekly turned the other cheek when Seth stroked into his heat-winning wave even though he had priority. Big two-turn combo with a dramatic end section hit. Judges paid it and that set the scale for the day. They showed consistency with regard to that theme, with an extra loading for last-minute drama.
After his Round of 16 victory over Ethan Ewing - a win needed to keep his CT career alive - Seth Moniz visibly bristled when Stace Galbraith asked him about surviving the cut. When Stace then suggested the urgency was fuel for his performance, Seth had much less to say (WSL/Hughes)
That annoyed some, who found the drama loading unconscionable. Trying to remove the human element of subjectivity from the panel is an exercise in futility. This subjectivity even becomes something admirable viewed from a certain angle, something that will resist the advance of AI and machine learning. You could show a machine a million 8-point rides and it will still fail to score the next one correctly. Rides are too specific, too contingent to be forced into some coherent pattern. It is beyond the machine, only a human can judge, no matter how subjectively.
It calls to mind the Scottish philosopher David Hume and his famous Hume's Guillotine. According to Humey, you cannot make claims about what ought to be from what is. This is/ought problem prevents us from making judgements inferred from purely descriptive factual statements. In other words, no matter how many times we hear the judging criteria, or read the even more specific judging notes for a day, the judgements made in the moment by human beings will be what they are, not what they ought to be.
Clear as mud? Good.
Though the wave before he took the classic line to the face, engaging rail through an extended arc, on John's second wave in the Semi he loosed the fins on his first turn, recovered, and after two more turns the judges unanimously paid top dollar (WSL/Ryder)
Caio got scrapped, Jordy got through, Imaikalani used the principles of dramatic execution over Jake Marshall, and Jack Robinson bought a stunning level of escalation, matched only by Florence in the next heat to down Italo.
There was a sense of both inevitability and anticipation as soon as we had seen Jack and John surf. They were clearly the two best guys in the draw and it would have been a dreadful anti-climax if they had avoided facing off in the Finals.
He needn't have closed his eyes to visualise the win, all day - all event in fact - Jack's fans willed him to the victory (WSL/Hughes)
Georgie Pittar was a potential spoiler. Massive, massive day for Pittar. Blazing rides and a heat win over Griffin Colapinto was the short term win, but the longer term victory is way bigger. George is emblematic of the post-surf star pro surfer. The guy or gal we don't hear about, or are vaguely aware of toiling away on the QS or CS, holding down some type of day job while they attempt to live the dream. A Morgan Cibilic, or Callum Robson, or Jacko Baker. There's only one mission for these guys, absent rich parents, and that is to get on the CT, and make a ruckus. Get a name, make a profile. Find a fan base and people who will follow you through your journey. Pittar has done that with his surfing, with his radical humility, with his sheer likeableness. Unfortunately Pittar ran up against John Florence in the Semis and that was the end of that run. John dumped a 10 and an 8.40 on him in his best heat of the comp and that was it for George. There will be huge interest for Pittar at Snapper in a weeks time. Lets hope he can capitalise on it.
George showed advanced maturity in the water and also on the glass. The Changa's big fields and four-man heats are a minefield of chance and dumb luck, but George showed the CT is where he ought to be (WSL/Hughes)
Sally is gone, India Robinson is gone. It was Gabby Bryan and Sawyer Lindblad who clawed their way up from the cut line or below.
Sally had her fate in her own hands. Needing a 6 and change she paddled into a potential heat-winning wave with judges ready to pay a dramatic finish. After a week of charging she backed down at the crucial moment and safety surfed it for a 5.67. Even two attacked turns and a fall would have likely got the score. That's three years in a row Sally has failed the cut. Does she go back to the Changa, yet again, for another round? Should she..?
When the judges wanted radical, Sal went smooth, and she paid the price. At 33-years old and with two CT wildcards behind her, an unknown future awaits (WSL/Hughes)
Gabby won the Final, clearly, against Sawyer who could not replicate her two-turn 9-point ride against Tyler Wright. Sawyer was insouciant in her presser after the Semi win claiming her surfing deserved to be on the CT, but she wasn't bothered about being relegated because she was only 18. I'm paraphrasing there, she delivered the news with a teenage sense of bulletproof confidence, a million miles away from the shuffling awkwardness but sharp intelligence of Caity Simmers. Sawyer is a bit of a force of nature, with a clean, powerful modern style. She was beaten in the Final by a pack of dolphins who forced Bryan to cut a first turn into a savage snap, as they broached the crest and threatened a collision. That ended up being the heat-turning wave.
WA Tourism had their next ad campaign shot for free during the Women's final (WSL/Hughes)
2020 was the last year JJF won a comp. 2019 the last time he won Margs. Time seems to be compressed in the realm of pro surfing. 2017, when John at the height of his powers redefined power surfing at Mainbreak, seems like yesterday. Seven years has passed in the blink of an eye.
John claimed, as he always does, that he wanted to put on a show and have epic battles. Jack said he looked forwards to many more of these epic showdowns with these two titans going at it. But will there be? We've had three in three years. John has been on tour for thirteen years. He's closer to the end of his career than the beginning.
We are running out of time.
Did new CEO Ryan Crosby watch this Finals Day? Did a penny drop for him, did he see the reaction of crowds, in person and online?
Getting these two matched up in good waves, should be his main priority as far as the “product” of pro surfing goes.
Jack beat John in their second finals showdown. Ergo, Jack is better than John at Main Break. Agree or disagree.
Personally, strongly agree.
The approach pioneered by John in 2017, now advanced by surfers like Jack (WSL/Hughes)
Jack's surfing is completely without repetition. Every wave is treated as a fresh canvas. Look at the gamut of repertoire he bought to Final's Day. Barrels, airs, carves of every stripe and flavour, lip grinds, late hits, dramatic full throw end hits, laybacks, roundhouse cutbacks, etc etc. He beat John with repertoire and he beat him with wave selection.
My favourite moment was in the second half of the heat and having dropped successive scores of a 9.17 and an 8.17 he sat next to JJF and caught a wave under priority and threw a massive but failed alley-oop.
In MMA, fighters throw “feints” to make their opponents “bite” and then capitalise on the mistake.
I believe Jack threw the alley-oop as a feint, to try and make John overcook his next wave under pressure.
The strategy failed because John did throw an air next wave and pulled it for an 8.77 and a chance at winning. Maybe it paid off minutes later when John inexplicably caught a shitty insider chasing an 8-point ride. Leaving Jack out the back luxuriating in an empty lineup for a victory lap as sets poured through.
Mid-heat Jack launched an opening move alley-oop, fell on the landing, yet signalled to John he'd need much more than turns to remain in contention (WSL/Hughes)
Jack in small waves is still unconvincing. The scarecrow arms and stiff upper body sometimes seem unconnected to the lower half. The style becomes intense and sometimes chaotic. It does not look natural. Over 6 foot, that completely changes. Everything becomes fluid, connected, and incredibly composed. He appears to read waves as if they were in slow motion. It’s an incredible spectacle.
The cut is over and the last two years we have seen the air come out of the tyres for the back half of the season. I believe this year will be different with Tahiti and Cloudbreak ahead.
Really, if they can get Tahiti, J-Bay, Cloudbreak, and Trestles as a regular stop and find a decent Final 5 location, even that could work. It won't be the classic Dream Tour, where “all hearts opened and all wines flowed”, but with Jack and John going at it, it'd be close enough.
//STEVE SHEARER
Comments
Post cut we now have 22 men and 10 women. The imbalance there looks ridiculous. I don’t see the top 4
in the mens moving that much. Maybe some jostling for spot 5. 22 just seems too many. If we must have a bigger mens field before the cut then be more brutal with the number that go through. My little take.
Ps yep JMD got this one right. Loved the overlapping heats. Best day we have seen this year.
Pps Brissa consistent again, now in the top 5
22 men v 10 women sounds right. The Parental perspective most have when viewing women pro surfing is hilarious. Forever overrating and consistently reinforcing how incredible women pro surfers are.
Apropos of philosophers and getting through rubbish early rounds:
“If you want the rainbow, you've gotta put up with the rain - do you know which philosopher said that? Dolly Parton. And people say she's just a big pair of tits”
- David Brent
Great write up as always - who cares about under 6 foot at this level l want that as a starting point!
I always go into this comp thinking it sucks, but then by finals day see it as one of the better comps.
Couldn't ask for a better final match up and better conditions and JJF 10 and a few of his other high scoring waves were insane, i cant believe he hasn't won a comp for a number of years.
I may be missing something, but the difference in ability between the men and women seemed stark - much more obvious than at Pipe. As noted, despite all the judging vagaries the 2 best men surfers made the final. As to AI, I am not a fan because of the existential risks, but the quantitative possibilities re surf contests - measuring board speed, direction changes, wave height, time in the barrel etc. etc. seem obvious. And given, if I have the facts, that 'style' is not explicitly considered, even more applicable.
Wild wobbly waves are suited to the bigger surfers, so being a man would have more advantage at a break like that. Thats my theory anyway.
Jordy being in the Top 5 is cool.
Agree. It seemed like you could get by with much less in the women. It needed Molly and Caitlin late in the draw to really push the envelope.
Very cool final day.. was awesome, cheers Steve for slugging it out watching the rest of the rounds then making sense of them all..
C'mon solid chopes
As the day wore on, I kept thinking the wind would pickup and spoil it all, but they were just blessed with great conditions right to the end.
Freeride said-“ Jack in small waves is still unconvincing. The scarecrow arms and stiff upper body sometimes seem unconnected to the lower half. The style becomes intense and sometimes chaotic. It does not look natural“
Lol wot.
Jack’s style is one of the few truly natural styles on tour. It’s only through dilution by their supreme talent that the infinitesimal over-coaching of most pros is not more glaring and grating. Consider how many times George Pittar would have had someone in his ear, whilst watching filmed session playbacks, telling him that in snaps / carves he has to rotate his head deeper towards the foam and where he wants to go.
The resultant turn makes judges happy and is technically correct but it’s very fucken far from natural.
Jack on the other hand, developed his style in response to the surfing his personality demands. The most natural thing about the entire WSL tour is Jack Robinson’s style.
And it’s fundamentally sound too. Despite what the sport’s scientists might be currently gushing over re body mechanics, the converse rotation of torso and lower body leading into turns leads to a more shortened snap style of a carve. Whilst the Jack / JIF technique of leading into the turn with elongated lineal body position and then rotating the torso at the end of the turn allows for far longer engagement of the rail and a more dramatic, powerful finnish.
Occy surfs the same. It’s a classic style , not forced or ungainly or unnatural.
Unconvincing….classic. Time for you to go rewatch his win in Mexico or some of his small snapper sessions.
"Not unnatural."
Nah, time for you to rewatch his QS performances. Jack's put more work into his style than anyone in the top echelon.
I also find it forced and stiff. Unquestionably great moves, and uncanny wave telepathy, but it's only by degrees better than, say, Adriano de Souza.
Which is curious, cos both Jack and Adriano changed their styles when they came under the tutelage of Leandro Dora.
Instead of coming at each other too forcefully , why dont we both agree to disagree and both accept you’re making poor lifestyle choices in your subjective appreciation of surfing styles?
Fair compromise?
Jack has one of the best styles of all time. Nothing like Squatty De Sousa.
You know you concur Dr Nettle.
Even the AI models agree with me that Coat-hanger Robbo has a crook style.
And he's only a few points off the yellow jersey; at least he'll have something to hang it on.
Strange to think that on a tour containing such styles as Jake Marshall ( so hunched over he looks like he should be pulling on a rope in a bell tower somewhere ) , Italo Feraira ( consciously employs wanton jitteryness in his surfing to the point that he will probably have to quit the tour when they finally ban Red Dye 40 ) and Seth Moniz ( Son of Chucky) , that you’d pick on and bully such an eye-pleasing and delicate style as poor old Jack Jack Jacky.
I guess you’re the type to walk the local neighbourhood shaming the roses in bloom for their showy beauty too.
The horror
I had never considered Jacks style till now as his lines on waves are just so in tune with what the wave is doing that dominated my view.
Watching some vids again I could imagine just some soft arms "skater" here and there on a wave would look good.
Jj came on tour with lots of soft skater arms and now does more and more big arms to get the rotation.
George Pittars head turns were overblown overcoached.
Those overrated turns of George are straight out of the Jeremy Flores playbook.
You know the ones, dead ahead off-the-tops where towards the end of the turn he rotates his hip and arms, and even his head, so his eyes are looking at some part of the wave the turn is never going to reach.
It's the very opposite of a driving turn, where the power all comes through the legs, so the hips don't rotate and nor does the head.
I understand the role arms and upper body play in counter-weighting a turn, but those overrated turns are the epitome of an over-coached turn.
Nothing is natural, everything aspirational.
Disagree stu. George engages rail and engages it early with efficiency. He does it so efficiently that it looks easy. Similar to Parko (not in style) but in ease of engagement.
Not saying the rail isn't engaged, it is and easily. It's everything to do with his upper body. Generally done by smaller or lighter surfers who are seeking extra leverage from their arms. Flores never really got out of the habit, and aware of it or not, it's a style flaw. We'll see if George continues it after he fills out.
The tai chi arms in slow motion looked just like those surf coaches doing turns on surf skate boards
Fair enough points. I actually really liked his style the first time i saw it. But now i'll be looking for the alleged faults! ha.
And here I am just worrying about my feet position on the board...
"Style flaw"? What are you saying? have you ever considered Body development? Injury adaptation, do you really think that the top 100 should surf like Ewing or Toledo? Don't know how long you've been in the line up brother but let it go... We're all different and that's what make our lifestyle/sport our own.
Yeah, I mentioned body development above.
No, I didn't say nor allude to surfers having to surf like other people, though it seems George has been coached that way.
45 years in the lineup.
If Putin tells you anything
Don’t fuck with the mein fuhrer
Stupet knows more than you
Style is very subjective, but I think he's an awesome surfer with bad style. JJF has good style.
You sound like someone close to Jack but not close to Jack
Freeride said-“ Jack in small waves is still unconvincing. The scarecrow arms and stiff upper body sometimes seem unconnected to the lower half. The style becomes intense and sometimes chaotic. It does not look natural“
Lol wot.
Jack’s style is one of the few truly natural styles on tour. It’s only through dilution by their supreme talent that the infinitesimal over-coaching of most pros is not more glaring and grating. Consider how many times George Pittar would have had someone in his ear, whilst watching filmed session playbacks, telling him that in snaps / carves he has to rotate his head deeper towards the foam and where he wants to go.
The resultant turn makes judges happy and is technically correct but it’s very fucken far from natural.
Jack on the other hand, developed his style in response to the surfing his personality demands. The most natural thing about the entire WSL tour is Jack Robinson’s style.
And it’s fundamentally sound too. Despite what the sport’s scientists might be currently gushing over re body mechanics, the converse rotation of torso and lower body leading into turns leads to a more shortened snap style of a carve. Whilst the Jack / JIF technique of leading into the turn with elongated lineal body position and then rotating the torso at the end of the turn allows for far longer engagement of the rail and a more dramatic, powerful finnish.
Occy surfs the same. It’s a classic style , not forced or ungainly or unnatural.
Unconvincing….classic. Time for you to go rewatch his win in Mexico or some of his small snapper sessions.
You sound like someone close to Jack but not close to Jack
Re style.
I reckon there's much more to style than how you hold your arms/head and how wide your stance is. Yes, that matters, but more important to me is how you make your board go through the water: smooth rail; not janky; power properly applied; flow.
Just my $0.05
great day of surfing yesterday - so good to see jjf & jack tearing at it...glad jack won it, but jjf floats my boat a little more with the speed and radicalness of his carve turns.
looked like they pulled a huge crowd on the beach, and happy that the stars aligned for the wsl
Agree 3v.
Johns hooking top turn on the 8.4 in the semi will have to go close to turn of the year.
He was so high on the lip the outside fin must have very nearly been out of the water. Another few inches higher up the wave and the turn is blown out and incomplete. Absolute mastery.
Love your writeups freeride, they're up there with the Top 5 highlights from even the best days.
I thought Seth Moniz (only just) won his semi, but wow was Jack good in the final.
If we were ok an alternate reality where John's 10 was in the final, would you still be saying Jack's better out there @FR?
Not much in it IMO.
@pops Totally agree with you on both of those. Jack very lucky to get through. He was epic in the final but John’s semi performance was the best of the day for me.
@pops Totally agree with you on both of those. Jack very lucky to get through. He was epic in the final but John’s semi performance was the best of the day for me.
I agree with Pops on Seth thought he won by a hair. But Jack blazed in the final.
That's three years in a row Sally has failed the cut. Does she go back to the Changa, yet again, for another round? Should she..?
NO
She said in her post heat interview that she’s gonna have a crack.
Hahaha.
She’s like a little Jack Russell
L O L....funny shit! Bahahahaha
+1. Good one GF. Describes my 2 perfectly.
Like it our not she's still about the best we got when you look at who's coming through right now:
Aussie / Kiwi's who will have qualified from last years challenger results:
- Bronte McCauley
CT surfers cut (to CS):
- India Robinson, Sophie McCullough and Isabella Nichols
Top 5 Aussie / Oceania qualifiers from this year's 'QS:
- Ellie Harrison, Paige Hareb (NZ), Phillipa Anderson, Rosie Smart, Saffi Vette (NZ)
NB/ Sierra Kerr not attempting full tilt this year
"NB/ Sierra Kerr not attempting full tilt this year"
Reckon a good result at Snapper would change that? She's in the draw,
Yeah good point. I had assumed because she didn't go all out with the 'QS then she wouldn't be able to. Still room for a bit of Woz nepotism though I assume. Good luck to her.
Stu would you happen to have a link to the Snapper draw? Its not posted on wsl site yet. Thanks
Got it from a member management system, Zonoras.
Isn’t Sierra qualified for the CS because she won the World Junior’s?
You could be right there Flat
Also I couldn’t see draw on Woz site either?
Yes Sierra qualified for CS via winning the world juniors. She has said recently that she was not trying to get on tour yet but guessing she will still do some of the events. I feel like she has been doing a few more comps lately but they may have been junior pro events. Maybe with the younger girls starting to charge this year she might be more interested
She must be close to same age as Caity?
Maybe when she has more friends on tour she will be keen for a few years
Yes that’s true. She’s a pretty unique case. She has a huge profile. Can afford to fly around the world making edits with dad. Maybe in a year or two hanging with a whole bunch of girls charging bigger waves on tour might be more appealing.
Great finals, great write-up, best man/woman wins in great waves. Jack not real comfortable in front of a mic. His surfing speaks on his behalf.
Sally was near the top in the CS and won ISA. Good on her for heading to the challengers again. I think she belongs on the top tier still, maybe not for much longer, but the tiny women’s field is so brutal. I mean Steph was close to the cut line last year and we know that wasn’t right.
No mention of John's last three minutes in the final...?
Felt like capitulation to me. Question being was it resignation to that heat alone or to something greater.
yep and im sure hes capitulated before in close heats
Tried to comment earlier, but it didn't go through. Reckon JJF blew it at the end. Took off on a wave that was never gonna get him the score. That looked like desperation to me. Should have had a bit of faith and waited, he would have been rewarded with a better opportunity. Was a 2 wave set in the last 30 secs.
Agree.
He even looked back after he'd taken off, like he still had a mind to flick off and get out the back, and he had the time to do so, yet he continued down the line on a nothing burger.
He could/should have forced Jack into one of those waves then caught the other.
It was a soft finish to an otherwise great contest.
.
Sets storm the point, big wave surfers sharpen their quivers for an overlapping shredfest staring John John Florence and Jack Robinson in full flight .
That's the product and it's good, so good.
Swellnet rules
Go Seth !
Seth did some major damage to the Aussies. He's very good
High quality waves make a huge difference. Not something the tour can dial up in its current form.
Even so. Non surfers would not have been gripped like us. Surfing is for surfers not the masses.
“Look!… dolphins!”
Been a while since I've watched the better part of a full days competition. Half of it on the road up to Ikea to buy a whole bunch of shit I didn't really need.
L O L
Ikea..........LOL
Did you get a swedish hotdog ?
Ikea where arguing couples congregate....
The lineup for hotdogs was thirty-deep, which mercifully saved me from that experience.
Sunday had terrible weather here so it was a good daytime activity that kept the kids off their iPads. Fortunately I only have to ensure it once every couple of years.
Didn't spot any of the WSL x Ikea "KÅSEBERGA" collab while I was there either. Hmmmm.
No colabs bummer..
I didn't have time to watch that much of finals day, but I did watch John's 10. Like most, I was blown away by it, but then watching the replays I started thinking, and Kelly's famous ~4 at Lowers left came to mind.
What I'm getting at is that, impressive as it looked and the recovery was, is it really a perfect 10 when you lose control and one foot comes off? I know that Clay Marzo does them at will, but they're floppy little turns and would be scored very low in a heat.
Never mind, just a philosophical question. He and Jack were the two best on the day.
I’d say that was Jon’s intention IB, reckon he knew exactly what was going to happen.
I would argue that at no point he lost control of that turn, that was exactly what he intended it to be.
Similar to say a tailwhip on a bike - the bike (board) is not connected to your feet but you have planned that and have full intention of regaining control. His ride out of it was so smooth and connected (and lacked that surprise of having lost control to regain it)
That what I was trying to say!
haha sorry, you beat me to it!
I was pondering the same thing, it’s an interesting thought of where the line is. But I think (a) as noted by others, it was a controlled/planned loss of control, with seamless transition into the next move, and (b) it had power, not just a flick of the board, and was still raining when he was into the next bottom turn! If he’d flopped around trying to recover for another couple of seconds and it became a one turn wave it still would’ve been an eye opener, but I doubt it would’ve scored as high.
Let alone Curren doing the same turn and some thirty plus years earlier.
Current was open faced John's straight in the pocket......I was sitting in a restaurant it was playing on a TV.
That turn, that wave, was crazy.
epic! thanks for another articulate and insightful wrap up - clash of the titans in the blokes, new and emerging energy in the women’s and a school of dolphins claiming priority, and a timely history lesson in Hume’s Guillotine.
ha, has Eric Idle's Bruces voice looping in my head now though..
(more broadly, claps to goofy, zen, upnorth, AndyM, Bnkref, seeds, -froth-, et al, for encouraging steve to not be tempted to lower his brow. Literary and philosophical inclusions [and big words] do much to ameliorate surf articles. Did I use that right?)
Good fun event. Great action. Really good write ups. Enjoyable shit talk with Swellnet punteriat.
Great day for surfing, although it really showed up the massive chasm between the level of mens and womens pro surfing. Next time my feminist sister tells me the girls are just as good as the blokes I'll force her to watch this event. Personally, I don't mind Jack's teapot style in the small stuff, it looks aggressive and fast even in between moves, a point of difference if you like.
Great wrap Steve. I only watched from the men's semi's on, and it was sick Sunday arvo viewing. The woz got super lucky, but they've had a wretched run of luck for ages now, so the worm had to turn. Credit where it's due, their coverage is exceptional (apart from missing live rides). I love the slow motion replays, you really get to see how critical the surfing is. Like when you're there live, the surfing looks so much better than on screen. Jacks manoeuvres really impressed me in the slow Mo replays, so much variety in turn angles and execution, and always on a bigger cleaner wave. John was outstanding too, they are hard to split, but Jack seems to have his number and John ran out of gas in the end.
@freeride76. Not sure about the AI judging - Generative AI still has a problem with making stuff up when tasked with creating a factual response. However analysis and pattern recognition i.e matching movements of board and body to known scores is at human levels now. Just ask the Flowstate guys. The tricky part will be determining the degree of difficulty presented by the wave.
Flowstate can tell who is who- it can't put a score on the board according to a criteria- that takes a human being.
What Flowstate version 1.0.0 can do now, is the worst it ever going to be.
True, and I could be proven wrong with time.
I'll be happy to eat crow if that is the case.
Feel pretty confident in my predictions based on how generative AI and machine learning operates- at least for the next 10 years.
The limiting factor is market size - it takes dollars to push the tech forward. The market for coaching will be massive compared to the number of businesses running surf contests. If the former yields code that could be reused for judging then it might happen. The more likely scenario is WSL has a library of scored waves that is its baseline for scoring. In a contest a wave is ridden, AI brings up the closest match from the baseline library and judges adjust their real time scores against that. At vey least they will use this scenario for training judges. They could even use those Apple Vision Pro VR glasses to simulate angry Brazilians storming the tower if you get the score wrong.
I'm not that bullish about the tech.
AI throws up way too many wrong calls, and that is with the entire weight of the tech industry behind it Microsoft Open AI, Google, etc etc)
But we'll see.
It’s all about the training of the tech and therefore the “muscle memory” it develops. The problem with AI is that it needs to have seen 10s of thousands of examples to make an estimate, and if it hasn’t seen or been trained on something (ie johns layback) it struggles to reconcile that with what it has. Plus the feedback to the model relies on human error (subjective/inconsistent scoring system) so that becomes inherent in the model. I think it would be good at scoring the most common rides (say 4-6 points?) but struggle with Jon’s 10. Interestingly, you could use AI or CNN to assess every wave with available footage and a score and test many hypotheses including impact of head judge on scoring, and whether the buzzer beater scenario is real
Then you could also "say", the tradition of excellence was sooo easily adhered today by the finalists, that it made the decision makers role pretty easy. Simple really.
AI? Chicken skin always apt for a big score. Didn't see ur name on the panel or the shadow judge roster?
Excellent day and excellent wrap up Steve. Disappointing that the top women, Caity BLSJ and Molly, didn't step up this time. For mine the women's semis and final were pretty boring to be honest, notwithstanding Sawyer's backhand stabs and hilarious seppo overconfidence. Something tells me she'll be around a while. As for Jack and JJF, bring it on at Chopes and Cloudy!
Molly seemed so off in this comp and I thought Caity beat Tyler by a hair but she was penalized by not making the end section. I still thought that wave warranted the score she needed 6.10. Tyler's hideous laybacks are hard on the eyes. Oh well thats how she rolls.
how did no one pay homage to clay marzo when john dropped that 10? flick was aghast saying shit like "wow i don't even know what to call that". mf, that is a clayback. he has been doing them for years and you should know what that turn is.
i also firmly (and respectfully) disagree with you re jack > john at margs. i think that old kelly-in-his-prime proverb applies: you don't beat john at margs, he just runs out of time. john's best waves out margs are much better than anyone else's best waves out margs.
With respect mate, Curren pulled this years and years before Clay. It's in one of the early Search vids
That was my thought too- immediate flashback to Curren on a South African point break.
Same turn.
Scottburgh Point - with flames for emphasis.
don't disagree at all! just for sure popularised/made more known via clay imo. but unbelievable everyone commentating acting like it was a brand new, never before seen turn
PT in 1978...the godfather of the layback snap
https://www.facebook.com/surfersjournal/photos/peter-townend-off-the-wal...
Wish JJF hadn't caught that crappy wave that was never gonna get the score with 2 mins to go. If he'd held on for that set that rolled through in the last 30 secs, would have been a dramatic finish.
Wish JJF hadn't caught that crappy wave that was never gonna get the score with 2 mins to go. If he'd held on for that set that rolled through in the last 30 secs, would have been a dramatic finish.
JMD didn't get it right. She just couldn't get it wrong. There has literally been no swell to run in the days prior. And the surf they got they milked for the dribble it was even through howling onshores...remember that? Its been as small as it can ever get here.
That swell was always due to arrive Sunday, and of course they'd run overlapping heats. No choice. Funny they didn't mention the B word the whole day, nor show any camera angles with it in the background. All the conditions were aligned....
JJF is still the best at Mainbreak and anywhere. He's from another realm. Jack was brilliant though and taking to the air was a masterstroke. Love those big straight airs. But those two turns JJF did....no one is close still. That first carve to me was the turn of the century...as good as the layback kick to recovery was for the yeti. That carve was a pure fighter jet at full speed and torque.
Great comp. Thanks FR.
Agree SR. What's that expression about even a broken clock getting it right twice a day?
Unpopular opinion but why award JJF a 10 for a failed maneuver? It clearly wasn't intentional and one foot came off the board before he recovered.
Don't get me wrong, it was an insane recovery (Like Curren's that time in The Search), and he is the best surfer on the tour without a doubt. This isn't a criticism of him but the judging criteria. Do they award 10's for erroneous moves recovered? That means Kelly's air flip thing at trestles should have been a 10 too instead of a 4, shouldn't it?
How is it a failed manoeuvre? I'd argue there was every intention (if not expectation) that the back foot would come off.
FWIW.. he did a similar move in the 2022 Final (see below, around the 4 min mark).. smaller waves, more in control but drew the same line.
If it were intentional then that would be the first one-footed reo/hack ever executed then? That would be an NBD. I personally don't think he intentionally took a foot off. My argument is that any move performed erroneously should be incapable of a perfect score, shouldn't it?
Again, no hate to JJF he is the only surfer I bother to watch on tour now. 100% a fan
As an aside, in terms of intended one-foot moves. I'm pretty sure I've seen footage of Christian Fletcher trying Madonna's and one-footed airs way back then. Wouldn't surprise me if Josh Kerr pulled something too
It's not that he intentionally took a foot off the board, it's that he pushed the turn so hard that there would be an expectation that his foot might come off - but he knew this would probably happen hence the seamless recovery.
I suppose I'm saying it didn't look like it was fluked. I reckon he could do that turn again and again if the right section popped up in the right place.
I'm with you Ben. It looked to me like his intention was to hit that section at full speed, kick the board at the wave as hard as he could, almost like a fighter kicking someones head in, and his goal was to keep the board centred under him, one way or another. He's that good that his proprioception allows him to know exactly where his board and body are on the wave at all times. Not many can compute that kinda information at that kind of speed with intent. I reckon John does it all the time. The foot coming off was just a part of his execution of keeping the board centred under him.
Yep.
Imagine paddling over the shoulder and seeing that in front of your face at Mach speed. Whaaaaatt
Kinda thing Dane Reynolds would also do frequently, though because we usually saw it via a casual video edit, we don't know how many takes it took to get the money shot.
To successfully pull this off during a Finals heat? Incredible.
that's it exactly: "I suppose I'm saying it didn't look like it was fluked. I reckon he could do that turn again and again if the right section popped up in the right place." spot on. To criticise it beyond 'you can't give a 10 for a fluke' (which you shouldn't, but it wasn't), is like being someone saying Jay Adams' early skate-style or Kevin Reed's cover didn't look right.
Looked like his intention was to push the limit of what is possible in a turn. Recovery was calculated into that. He came out of it so smooth, it's hard to believe it wasn't his intention all along.
He did a very similar turn and recovery earlier in the day, the recovery in both were very quick, smooth and he was perfectly centred on his board.
No failure about it
Alright, then one-footed layback reo/hack is a new move!
I name it the "Caution: wet floor!"
why does it matter what a foot does, that's like saying that leaning on whitewater to get a completion isn't valid. Isn't the aim to drive the board and not fall off with style? reckon JF did it twice in 2022..
it's a great SN-type discussion point though Terminal, haha '"so cool, seeing him throw a caution like that from out of nowhere" - I can hear Joe's voice now : P
Oh man I hope it takes off. If someone can post pics, post a caution: wet floor sign pls
https://www.westernsafetysign.com/cdn/shop/products/CAS-8-OSHA_Caution_W...
Agree, JJFs had power, intention, and quick recovery. But interesting to see where the line is in the judges eyes between epic move and gimmick trick. Eg. If someone does a 360 kick-flip type move with minimal air, which I’m guessing not many on the tour can do, would they be rewarded over a big tweaked punt or huge carve?
I take your point though and it’s good to see the judges aren’t paying as highly those little toe just grasping, long winded recoveries very highly anymore.
bruz... someone else mentioned curren doing it previously, and also here you go:
EDIT: here's a link to a better version of the turn (imo, coz the link above has many instances where his foot doesn't come off, though it does in some):
&t=6sOver a certain period of time, even in a sport as subjective as surfing, results have to matter don't they?
Since JJF's last Mainbreak win 2019, Jack has now beaten him twice in Finals in pumping surf.
Since 2020 (JJ's last win) Jack has won Pipe, Sunset, Tahiti, G-land and finalled at J-Bay.
Thats an incredible record- it seems Jack is being a little under-appreciated here as somehow still being in John's shadow in pumping surf.
Cheers for the write-up. Super fun day to watch and the right final pair.
Have to agree and I think Jack likes it that way ...with Tahiti and Cloudbreak coming up he's doing everything he needs to do. Not to mention an Olympic Gold up for offer.
Jack just does Jack things ...and I for one love him for it.
It’s a style thing, I think.
Jack surfs amazing, but he does sometimes progress along the wave in a series of jerks which is not very attractive. John also has the advantage of height. A big turn with an expansive body movement just looks better from taller surfers (e.g. Steph Gilmore).
Shorter surfers can look great if they lean into that with a compact powerful style (eg: Occy, Dane). That is not really how Jack surfs.
JJF is 6'2"
Jack is 5'11"
Dane is 6'0".
They are all fairly big units- not sure that 3 inches JJF has is much of an explanation.
Agree JJF has a quieter style though.
Yeah, nah.
It’s only three heats or three thirty minute sessions. The surfing JJF did in the semi was unrivalled by anyone else all comp. I’m not saying that JUF or JR is superior, just that three shared heats don’t account for their entire talent.
The vagaries and idiosyncrasies of comp surfing dont allow for valid comparisons in such a small sample size between two surfers of similar ability.
I see that argument- there's merit in it.
Jack caught 8 waves in 2022, and 8 waves in 2024 Final.
JJF caught 7 in each Final.
So we have a total of 30 waves in pumping surf available for comparison.
Jack enlarged the winning margin in 2024 compared to 2022.
Why have the best in the world compete at all, if you aren't prepared to accept the results?
Jack and JJF surfed consecutive heats against different opposition for the semis. Who would have won - by a huge margin - if there was a mock heat comprising the scores they’d earnt during those consecutive heats?
JJF. Easily. A valid equivalent of a heat considering they were sharing the same lineup in the same conditions , only separated by the arbitrary sounding of a hooter.
18.4 points to 14.33 points advantage JJF
John peaked in the semis, Jack peaked in the finals. Who won the final is not even representative of who was the best surfer on the day, let alone all up.
The one that matters is the Final.
it's not a free-surf.
You don't remember the bloke who got the best rides in the semis but lost the Final.
If it bares any resemblance to a sport, then it has to be done when it matters most.
Lets be honest, John does tend to crumble a bit under pressure.
He's an excellent front runner but doesn't seem to like the grind. Can't imagine he'll slog it out on tour too much longer.
Actually had that very conversation with a mate yesterday after the semi. We were discussing what is the actual point of having a world tour. John John is far and away the best surfer on the planet, now, and maybe ever. So ultimately it's just an exhibition sport to see who can compete the best.
As for the final....JJF excelled in the big clean canvases...Jack did better in the bumpy chopped up unpredictable waves of his home break. Definitely think JJF peaked in the semis. Happens often in all sports. But there's definitely merit to your argument FR. But i'd argue in this case, everyone remembers the guy that got the best rides in the semis and lost the finals,....and will continue to for many years. The memory of those two turns will long outlive the memory of Jack winning the final imo.
What neither of you is really factoring into this is luck. It's always there in pro-surfing. A big part of priority is luck. Getting the best opportunities to do your best work.
Jack got better waves in the final. Whether that's down to strategy or luck or both, it's hard to say.... but you gotta take what the ocean presents to you. If two big sets had come through in the final 5-6 mins, JJF could have easily won it. So on that basis, I find it hard to say one person was better than the other in the context of a final. Obviously over the course of the whole event, these were two of the best performers... no doubt.
Good point, and well taken.
Other versions by the likes of Curren and Marzo were not in a competitive situation. JJF pulled a couple off right at the apex of a sporting contest. The upside-down (inverted?) nature of it and perfect slice from the Pyzel Ghost tail is something to behold. No doubt that will be the lasting image and feeling. JJF is The Benchmark. But Gabe and Jack have their moments, too.
But Jack got the actual job of a pro-surfer done ...again. He matched up and came out on top.
That makes him the best Aussie World Champ prospect in quite a while and I can't wait to see how he goes ...up until Trestles.
Jack looked solid at trestles last year.
Between him and toledo
Both were form surfers in the exhibition event held 2 days prior.
Jack has got what it takes.
Jack surf live is something else!
it's not exactly the same but a good analogy would be the jjf kelly semi at chopes that overshadows the also mind-blowing final...
Loving this thread, core swellnet
Could've gone either way
JJ didn't engage in the customary first priority paddlebattle hassle-off
Gotta love him but yes he might of lost it there, seems Jack was prepared to be ALL over him
Italo's last wave in the free surf on finals day was 10 in my lowly book, And that's great to see him charging proper again.
Results have to matter,at the same age as JR JJF was winning back to back world championships,so we’ll see if that happens with JR!
Great viewing, best in a long time on the tour. All day on the lounge and that hasn't happened for a while!
The big shock for me was watching the women as I couldn't believe how bad Tyler looked, flat faced turns and that horrible layback has returned. If this is the best she has then its all over for her as the new guard are wiping the floor with the old crew in rail work, drawing great lines and commitment
Women's surfing is great to watch but if the old guard don't change their angles and commitment then they are gone and while they have forged the path ahead for the new generation during their time on tour it looks like it might be all over if they cant change
agreeed mate. That layback thing is the opposite of speed power and flow. Its normally done on a flat section of wave, so no power, it results in a loss of speed, and affects the whole flow of the wave. A few times she did it yesterday and she lost all the momentum to go into the next section. Looks horrible.
A non-surfing mate dropped by yesterday & we watched the end of the womens & the men’s semis.
He was blown away by JJF 10 & by the whole spectacle & will probably start tuning in again esp heading into Tahiti & Fiji.
Amazing where time goes.. I watched the 2004 Margs QS final from a tinny in the channel when Troy Brookes pulled an air in the dying moments to beat Rory Power.. haven’t their paths differed!
looking at the cut surfers, outside of a bit of patriotism, i think there is a very good argument to simply have smaller tours. a lot of crew there who are just making up the numbers and not seriously contending for event wins week in week out.
They'll need at some point to get parity in the post cut mens and womens tours.
16 man/woman fields makes the most sense.
How many days would it take to run a comp go to whoa if this was the case? I’d assume no non-elimination round
Edit. Sorry I misread that as the whole tour should only be top 16 men and women
Ha we need a time machine !!!!@!
I don't think JJF is surfing any worse than he did in 2017 - it is simply in the seven years since then, other people have improved their surfing to meet JJF's level in quality waves . . . and surpass it, like Jack Robinson.
As stated by a few above marked differences between the men and women on finals day
The women just do not have the strength and power in waves like that size
Cannot engage the rail for good drawn out turns
Whereas at pipe Molly can drop into a barrel and let her positioning and the wave do the rest
Ps JMD hot pink and black lightning bolt top at 8am in morning was out there
"JMD hot pink and black lightning bolt top at 8am in morning was out there"
Highlight moment for mine and I can't believe Steve overlooked it.
Soon as I saw I knew it was gonna be a good day.
I just caught the last glimpse of it.
On a slow news day would have been the lede for sure.
That top was amazing
Full zinger! Paging Lopez to the building !!!!!
And was JMD wearing lime green the day before
Even at primo spots with the women's + men's plus elimination round + huge field getting semis and finals in quality waves is just an occasional fluke.
Tour is forever dragging around a ball and chain.
Really nice to be able to enjoy a day of pro surfing for a change. Despite most people's reservation about Main Break being on tour, I for one feel it's a great challenge for them. To be able to do well there, you have to be able to do certain things other's aren't or can't. Most can't, which is quite obvious when watching the men's elite vs the rest.
It's a great test of 'surfing', watermanship and ability to be flexible. It's often a pretty fair playing field that it (usually) gets so much swell, even those shit days at Southside gave plenty of opportunity.
Yeah Jack won that final fair and square but my gosh it was good to see John at full flight again.
It's not hard is it? Get them into good waves and the rest happens, no selling required.
I really enjoyed that synopsis Freeride, a real treat wake up to. Thank you.
Just as a random aside- now that the CS no longer includes Hawaii- does anyone think Jack or JJF would get through the Changas?
I don't.
Jack only qualified on the back of Sunset Beach.
Would be epic to a chaga at Honolua Bay....
If you look closely JJ foot came off twice on that turn, not deliberate but lucky he recovered well, could of easily went the other way.
can't believe you've got a shot of Jack actually putting his game head on..
so the Robbo Gummidge rumours are true : o
I'd love to borrow his tubewhisperer-mangelwurzel for an afternoon..
The beauty of the photo is the background signage.
...and the streak of spittle running down his chin from diaphragmatic breathing.
Ha, had to look again classic.
Loved the overlapping heats which meant more action, maybe they should do that at the shithouse stops on the tour to spice it up a bit.
So into this event I even watched award presentation.
Would have liked WSL to present JJF with his Yeti eski with along with that little barrel of piss he received for runner up. That way when he was done watching Robbo talking and holding his barrel like a giant phalanx he could just pack his own barrel away into that eski and just wheel it off stage with a casual look back, some wheres your eski eyes maybe.
Yep had money on three of the semifinalists but not Robbo. I had JJF at 5 to 1, G Pittar and Seth at around 81 to 1 for a couple of bucks each. (anyone following my ramblings and or a degenerate gambler- TAB is a better friend of surfers than Ladbrokes in my humble opinion. Haven't checked the other agencies).
All in all bloody great value especially considering the awful forecast. Highlight was watching drone footage of surfers from one of the semis trying to duck dive and get driven back about 50m under water. Don't get scored for those under water barrel rolls, but this viewer was totally living the moment. Yeah that's my experience of 8 foot Main break.
I was fixiated by that bit too, having lived the experience down south.
It caught my eye, Leroy. Reminded me of the many times I’ve been dragged back forever.
I wonder what John would have scored if he did the exact same on the wave Jack got his 9.1 on.
Massive carve to safety floater on a massive foam section.
I think the judges would have expected more from him on the end section and a lower score the result.
That floater had a huge drop. I wouldn't call it safety.
I would, and I have never seen JJF do anything remotely safe on that section - he'd rather lose than not have an almighty crack at the section. I realize its a big section and a big drop but he puts himself up there and takes the drop. If it wasn't safe he would have hit the section then thought about the drop.
Just watched it again and I stand by it.
Safety floater!
Let’s just say that we disagree.
how's the WSL doing now? Zero chat of negativity... that's better, thank you...i implore y'all to remember how good this day was when the chips are down for pro surfing, Its like surfing in general, you have to go thru lotsa bad/average conditions to really appreciate the good ones. Keep us all coming back. Thanks WSL for bringing this to our homes, epic finals day.
Too True Fudrongo.....
100% mate, too much negativity for a product that is FREE to watch!! There's not much you can get for free these days.... I for one think this year has been super entertaining for the most part, and yes there have been some dud days due to the conditions, but this is a sport that is at the mercy of mother nature.
Thought that was a great day of WSL surfing. Yes they got lucky a bit but that's what you get with the nature of the beast. Lots here seem to want way smaller fields and get to the point quicker. Me I take the opposite view and can't see how the WSL can sustain 3 separate tours in the longer term. Financially this won't work and I would hate to see the whole thing go belly up. The whole cut thing is a debacle and if Ryan Callinan had caught a 7 in the last few minutes of his heat with Medina then GM would have missed the cut. Pretty much the same for Italo. You can't say that these guys are not at the very top of the tree apart from the design of the format.
I would love to see Surfing take a leaf out of golf and give exemptions for champions and event winners. A world champ has a 15 year exemption and an event winner has a 7 or 10 year exemption. Then they get to pick and chose which events they feel competitive in. Who wouldn't want to tune in to watch Parko versus George Pittar at Snapper? Or Slater at the heavy lefts? Surfing needs all it's biggest names involved as long as they can be competitive in order to get more sponsorship and more eyeballs on itself. Fanning, Steph, Carrissa should all be able to enter any events they chose. They're all huge drawcards. And of course the top 10 in the world get seeded through to later rounds and you chose whether you want to watch or not? But having the biggest names still there up against the best up and comers would be awesome. The CT as it stands is only 10 events. That's clearly a cost saving thing. The CS is another 6 events. How is this financially sustainable in a tough economic climate?
I say go back to QS events all around the world. Top 12 qualify for the CT. Top 24 CT requalify and all the others are past champions etc through past results. Each event 48 surfers and top 12 are seeded to the later rounds. And at least 15 or more CT events. All the worlds top spots including Hossegor, Hawaii, Ulus, Keramas, Gland, Tahiti, Fiji, J bay, Trestles, Japan, Central America, Snapper, WA, Bells and other places possible too. I would love to see more top level surfing not less and if you don't want to watch then don't but would love to see the past champions still having a crack until they felt they couldn't. Tiger had the biggest galleries at the Masters and Tom Watson nearly won the British Masters at 58 a couple of years back.
Great day of waves. Jack was the best in the final. A couple of child prodigies who grew up in big wave spots. If you want to know who’s best of the two I recommend watching John take Robbo for his first run at Waimea. No WSL surfer has ever been more casual and comfortable in 25-30ft waves. Landing air drops and going switchfoot.
John sits deeper than anybody outthere.
Gnar
Everyone complaining about the small days and Snapper has had swell for 3 or 4 months
what individual sport has the best heat draw where titans play off in the final more often than not...tennis??? is wsl format loosly based on that.
and on AI apparently it will be that good in the future there will be people in society who just put a set of goggles on all day and it will stimulate the brain enough that you wont need to do anything else or leave your room. dont want to be blunt but people are already putting on these goggles watching porn and wanking off to it. i think scoring a wave surfed will be chicken feed and basic for AI.
Surfing uses the tennis format
Has since the 90s
Viewers , bums on seats, the first and second seeded surfers will meet in the final....
Pending they make it through the draw.
Cheers LD. So I guess it's the best way to set up a draw then.
AI. Pfffttt!
For surf contest judging that is.
Sheesh latest Nate Floz vid with footage of the box from finals day - cooking!!
Just watched that, I reckon it’d be really hard to separate the men at that size. All of them could just about surf that on their ear these days