The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

adam12 Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 10:43am

Terra nullius was always bullshit. The First Fleet arrived to set up a penal colony, a prison with no walls. The thinking was that the convicts wouldn't escape because leaving the settlement meant they would most likely be killed by 'natives', i.e. the people that already lived there. They knew it wasn't "nobody's land". It wasn't until later, when they got a good look at it, that they started claiming it all.

waveman Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 11:50am

AndyM wrote:
“conceded to realities over 'never ceded'?”
Yeah I think the realities are obvious.
“ always will be“ might be good for morale and dignity but I don’t think it’s dealing with the here and now.
A voice to Parliament is much more pragmatic.

No one has any idea how pragmatic or otherwise the voice to parliament will be seeing as its powers haven’t even been defined yet.

gsco Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 12:47pm

Pls correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is the indigenous Australians don’t want imposed on them the laws, institutions and structures of their invaders and oppressors.

My understanding is they want - and deserve - self determination via some form of legitimate political and legal self rule and governance. It seems clear that our democracy currently does not provides this.

But I believe a legitimate and lasting form of indigenous self rule could be accommodated on this great terra firma called Australia.

Maybe a voice in parliament is a step in that direction and if so then I support it.

AndyM Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 6:36pm

"my understanding is the indigenous Australians don’t want imposed on them the laws, institutions and structures of their invaders and oppressors."

Very much depends on which crew you are talking about I expect.
But for those who don't, the Uluru Statement shows that they are pragmatic enough to realise that, paradoxically, the best way to achieve this is by doing it through the laws, institutions and structures in place.

indo-dreaming Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 6:46pm

AndyM wrote:
"my understanding is the indigenous Australians don’t want imposed on them the laws, institutions and structures of their invaders and oppressors."

Very much depends on which crew you are talking about I expect.
But for those who don't, the Uluru Statement shows that they are pragmatic enough to realise that, paradoxically, the best way to achieve this is by doing it through the laws, institutions and structures in place.

100% i depends on who you talk too, again people need to stop talking of indigenous people as this one big group that all think, act & feel a certain way, as you can see from stats below a decent percentage live in cities and are no different to other people i doubt most of these people want seperate laws or institutions or whatever.

Based on projections for 2022, among Indigenous Australians:

38% (344,800) live in Major cities.
44% (395,900) live in Inner and outer regional areas.
17% (155,600) live in Remote and very remote areas combined.

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-health/profile-of-indigenous-...

Almost all the issues to do with those facing a gap and real disadvantage are in regional to very remote areas.

oxrox Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 9:57am

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/how-david-littleproud-s-elector...
Looks like there is a bit of confusion amongst the indigenous in the bush as well.
Not surprising as all they are relying on is ABC news and radio for their information.
Not surprising also that they find the nationals decision bewildering.
Some are against the voice to parliament also.

I focus Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 1:34pm

Given the general Australian population cannot agree on many issues not surprising that of the 1st nations population difference mobs have different views.

But the Voice to Parliament is an attempt to allow some of those points of view to come forward note the balance of representation is / intended to be greater from remote areas at the moment there is SFA.

The Nats move making total BS excuses and hiding behind Price out the front is an affront to common sense but points to a high to baseless political maneuvering and weakness of the leadership.

GuySmiley Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 2:51pm

@info says

" ...... again people need to stop talking of indigenous people as this one big group that all think, act & feel a certain way,"

and then in the same sentence goes on to make the sweeping assertion lumping all city based Aboriginals into one big group

"as you can see from stats below a decent percentage live in cities and are no different to other people i doubt most of these people want seperate laws or institutions or whatever."

blackers Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 4:50pm

Consistently inconsistent.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 7:25pm

blackers wrote:
Consistently inconsistent.

Are you going to add anything to the conservation or just be a fuckwitt?

indo-dreaming Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 7:33pm

GuySmiley wrote:
@info says

" ...... again people need to stop talking of indigenous people as this one big group that all think, act & feel a certain way,"

and then in the same sentence goes on to make the sweeping assertion lumping all city based Aboriginals into one big group

"as you can see from stats below a decent percentage live in cities and are no different to other people i doubt most of these people want seperate laws or institutions or whatever."

Okay fair enough maybe i was generalising a little bit too much on that last comment.

But you still know what i mean, we know no ethnic group thinks or feels the same, and we also know the issues and level of issues seen by indigenous people in different areas they live is very different.

We know the greatest problems especially in regard to the gap are in very remote to remote communities, then region areas, then cities.

Those facing real problems, have real reason to want change, while those that dont face those problems and generally live like you and me really have no need for a change of these things.

But okay sorry i was thinking too logically and forgot about ideology etc

sypkan Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 8:09pm

I like linda burney, i find her a very likeable, balanced, and inspiring politician...

but she looked silly this morning on insiders - still repeating, and repeating, and repeating, the same old lines labor has been trotting out for over six months now, no detail whatsoever...

I get it that the working committee are still figuring shit out, but labor are just looking cagey and ill prepared now. when directly asked if australians will know what they are voting for before the referendum, she still couldn't give a straight answer

yeh, the nationals are morons for going way too early... but if labor cannot offer up at least a framework soon, they'll lose this debate

'the vote for the referendum will be on principle not detail' (pat dodson)

good luck with that

indo-dreaming Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 8:41pm

It's hard to know exactly how the voice will operate as we know so little about it, but one of my first thoughts when i heard of the concept was how corruption would factor into things especially when you have a large number of non elected people from all kinds of areas with possible links to organisations and individuals seeking funding and they all kind of have a bit of power, would be a lot of temptation to be swayed by people who offer to give you kick backs if you can help them get funding or doors opened for them etc

In 2016 Indigenous funding was said to be worth 30 billion a year so you would expect it would be worth much more now, and then you have all these organisations wanting funding, i read there is over 1100 Aboriginal funded organisations then Land Councils, various agencies, The Coaltion of peaks and many advisory bodies that already exist.

You could imagine there would already would be all kinds of miss management of funds, corruption and kick backs but this voice thing with advisors sounds like a dream gig for that kind of thing.

Then i learnt there already was something along a similar line from 1990 to 2005 that basically failed and in part due to issues of corruption.

It was called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) (1990–2005)

"was the Australian Government body through which Aboriginal Australians and Torres Strait Islanders were formally involved in the processes of government affecting their lives, established under the Hawke government in 1990. A number of Indigenous programs and organisations fell under the overall umbrella of ATSIC.

The agency was dismantled in 2004 in the aftermath of corruption allegations and litigation involving its chairperson, Geoff Clark"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_and_Torres_Strait_Islander_Comm...

blackers Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 9:13pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
blackers wrote:
Consistently inconsistent.

Are you going to add anything to the conservation or just be a fuckwitt?

I will leave that to you.

I focus Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 10:47pm

"It was called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) (1990–2005)"

Indo its already been made very clear "The Voice" will be nothing like ASIC not that it stopped disinformation BS from the Nats unfortunately.

Also the Voice so far hasn't proscribed to hold any powers if it did it simply wouldn't get up everyone including 1st nations know that.

As for abuse of power and corruption look no further than the last Coalition Government rumors of what some of the ministers got up to are pretty out there (not speaking of Morrisons secret ministries), will be very interesting how the new corruption watchdog handles it all.

indo-dreaming Monday, 5 Dec 2022 at 8:34am

How can it be nothing like ATSIC when the key purpose of both is basically having a third party of indigenous people advise on indigenous issues and where money goes.

Something that if you believe common rhetoric has never happened before.

Obviously corruption is an issue at all levels of government anywhere in the world, even in Victoria Dan Andrews is in an out the IBAC and findings rarely made public, so i wouldnt get too excited a simple line like "I don't recall" can also clear things up when under investigation, anyway lets not derail this conversation.

But with how much money is involved in the industry its no a brainer that there will be a large risk of corruption and kick backs, especially when you have people connected to various organisations and individuals and people that might not be on big money and have this once in a life chance to get some decent money.

I wonder if they will have a proper system to monitor this for example all bank accounts, real estate and other assets are recorded (ideally including close family) and then monitored to pick up any oddities, although these days it would be easy to get paid in crypto or funnel money through friends and family.

GuySmiley Monday, 5 Dec 2022 at 3:30pm

Disingenuous as ever @info

The Voice to Parliament will look nothing like ATSIC, a body based on your comments above, you know SFA about, apart from your online resurchin.

If you want to start a discussion on corruption perhaps you should start by acknowledging what you have previously refused to do when it came to the stench that was the Morrison Govt.

Further, government programs and funding does attract fraudsters, there wouldn't be one pocket of government immune to cheating. That is why we need a strong and well trained and resourced Public Service to ensure funding integrity wins out over corruption. Now, serious question, which side of politics has spent the last 10 years gutting the public service? Your side of politics that's who under the lie of "cutting red tape". A Federal ICAC will also go along way to helping stamp out the corruption.

I focus Monday, 5 Dec 2022 at 10:51pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
How can it be nothing like ATSIC when the key purpose of both is basically having a third party of indigenous people advise on indigenous issues and where money goes.

1st Nations people involved with the process and Labor ministers have been at pains to point out "The Voice" is nothing like ATSIC.

Please read up on ATSIC.

As for doling out money after the ATSIC allegations that wont be a function of The Voice.

We wouldn't want a scenario like the corrupt way Coalition Grants were issued by the billions particularly with no over sight.

I assume The Voice will be covered by the new watch dog on federal corruption matters anyway having said that if the rumors are true about Coalition ministers they will be too busy for much else.

Supafreak Wednesday, 21 Dec 2022 at 6:50pm

Two years on from the destruction of Juukan Gorge, another sacred site has been destroyed.

This time in SA, where vandals destroyed 30,000-year-old art at Koonalda cave in the Nullarbor Plain, leaving Mirning traditional owners devastated. @kymaher https://t.co/ivsVQCNJq3
— RN Breakfast (@RNBreakfast) December 20, 2022

Supafreak Friday, 23 Dec 2022 at 11:58am

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-23/andrew-gee-resigns-national-party... Federal Calare MP Andrew Gee quits National Party over Indigenous Voice to Parliament opposition

Supafreak Saturday, 24 Dec 2022 at 5:01pm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-24/uluru-statement-co-author-makes-c... Uluru Statement co-author makes the case for an Indigenous Voice to Parliament

bluediamond Wednesday, 28 Dec 2022 at 11:42pm

What does it mean to be an Australian?? The Captain Cook version!!!!! (from 2007)
60 minutes but note the number of times an indigenous Australian is credited as being an Australian...or even acknowledged in the story. 0 minutes! Oi Oi Oi!!!

seeds Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 12:22am

Those Australians are all grown up and their offspring are the Eshays brah

bluediamond Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 7:34am

Haha @seeds. Yes indeed.

happyppl Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 8:24am

I focus wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
How can it be nothing like ATSIC when the key purpose of both is basically having a third party of indigenous people advise on indigenous issues and where money goes.

1st Nations people involved with the process and Labor ministers have been at pains to point out "The Voice" is nothing like ATSIC.

Please read up on ATSIC.

As for doling out money after the ATSIC allegations that wont be a function of The Voice.

We wouldn't want a scenario like the corrupt way Coalition Grants were issued by the billions particularly with no over sight.

I assume The Voice will be covered by the new watch dog on federal corruption matters anyway having said that if the rumors are true about Coalition ministers they will be too busy for much else.

focus just want to point out the"allegations" of corruption of atsic were proven to be true, caused by nepotism and cronyism and incompetence, and it caused a lot of angst and disunity in first nations communities.
ergo, to me the voice to me will be another beaurocracy filled with mates and rellies churning out propaganda about how good it is.

AndyM Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 9:09am

It started off as something truly deliberative, let's hope it continues that way.

I focus Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 9:52am

happyppl wrote:

I focus wrote:

"focus just want to point out the"allegations" of corruption of atsic were proven to be true, caused by nepotism and cronyism and incompetence, and it caused a lot of angst and disunity in first nations communities."

Yep think it was likely worse than that.

"ergo, to me the voice to me will be another beaurocracy filled with mates and rellies churning out propaganda about how good it is."

That's possible but good governance and over sight would be key.

happyppl Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 4:37pm

I focus wrote:

happyppl wrote:
I focus wrote:

"focus just want to point out the"allegations" of corruption of atsic were proven to be true, caused by nepotism and cronyism and incompetence, and it caused a lot of angst and disunity in first nations communities."

Yep think it was likely worse than that.

"ergo, to me the voice to me will be another beaurocracy filled with mates and rellies churning out propaganda about how good it is."

That's possible but good governance and over sight would be key.[/quo..te]

Good gov and oversight from oz beaurocracy? lol.
Cynical outlook from me but like the "blues bros" movie quote " if the shit fits wear it".
I would much rather see da $billions spent on regional infrastucture and homelessness rather than a new govt agency that's full of uni degree airheads.
My experience with govt agencys is cover up their failures and blame it on lack of resources and funds.
This referendum is a sham, first nation ppls have ample agency's and funds to help them and we are all equall under the law.
Just an excuse for pollies etc to "shoehorn their kids" onto cushy jobs.
Allso the fed and state govt are biggest employers in cntry, we don't need more ...except medical, defence, ses, cfs, you know usefull ppl.
Not pencil pushers with a big chip on shoulder and mega confirmation bias attitude who try to lay "guilt trip" on this generation for the imperialist empire rule of 200yrs ago.
This voice is divisive ...anyway had to say something cos no one wants to see the "elephant in the room".

happyppl Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 4:37pm

I focus wrote:

happyppl wrote:
I focus wrote:

"focus just want to point out the"allegations" of corruption of atsic were proven to be true, caused by nepotism and cronyism and incompetence, and it caused a lot of angst and disunity in first nations communities."

Yep think it was likely worse than that.

"ergo, to me the voice to me will be another beaurocracy filled with mates and rellies churning out propaganda about how good it is."

That's possible but good governance and over sight would be key.[/quo..te]

Good gov and oversight from oz beaurocracy? lol.
Cynical outlook from me but like the "blues bros" movie quote " if the shit fits wear it".
I would much rather see da $billions spent on regional infrastucture and homelessness rather than a new govt agency that's full of uni degree airheads.
My experience with govt agencys is cover up their failures and blame it on lack of resources and funds.
This referendum is a sham, first nation ppls have ample agency's and funds to help them and we are all equall under the law.
Just an excuse for pollies etc to "shoehorn their kids" onto cushy jobs.
Allso the fed and state govt are biggest employers in cntry, we don't need more ...except medical, defence, ses, cfs, you know usefull ppl.
Not pencil pushers with a big chip on shoulder and mega confirmation bias attitude who try to lay "guilt trip" on this generation for the imperialist empire rule of 200yrs ago.
This voice is divisive ...anyway had to say something cos no one wants to see the "elephant in the room".

I focus Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 11:10pm

happyppl wrote:
This referendum is a sham, first nation ppls have ample agency's and funds to help them and we are all equall under the law.

Hmm, unfortunately the in your face statistics (and The Gap report) say other wise and its not working, still if you have evidence to back you claim would like the see it cheers.

happyppl Friday, 30 Dec 2022 at 4:11am

I focus wrote:
happyppl wrote:
This referendum is a sham, first nation ppls have ample agency's and funds to help them and we are all equall under the law.

Hmm, unfortunately the in your face statistics (and The Gap report) say other wise and its not working, still if you have evidence to back you claim would like the see it cheers.

If "it's" (?) not working ?? Lot's of reasons for it, substance abuse, dv and some parents telling kids "go out and steal from vhitey cos they stole everything from us"...no bull this happens.
I know this will upset the woke and pc mob out there and think me racist but why are the communities after all these years still have problems and our fault?
Allso the rio tinto unesco wrld heritage listed cave kaboom! event where all local, state and federal agencies had 12mnths notice of their intent and scomos govt investigation said "no knew of their intent". and that lie is now accepted.
So a report says "it's" not working...wow!...stateing the obvious.
Focus something has to be done but this rio tinto cover up... i have no trust in our govt institutions and this "voice" sounds like a pr stint to me, good intentions,

Supafreak Saturday, 7 Jan 2023 at 3:15pm

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/opinion/topic/2023/01/07/fighting-voice. Marcia Langton
Fighting for a Voice

happyppl Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 3:41pm

Supafreak wrote:
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/opinion/topic/2023/01/07/fighting-voice. Marcia Langton
Fighting for a Voice

supafreak thankyou 4 the info, i have not logged on since my post cos i was expecting a barrage of irate responses and am astonished at the silence, i knew that my opinion was aligned with lnp's...for the record i despise howard abbot scomo et all, neoliberal policies, privatisation of public utilities and the secret state "shenanigans" of these "flogs" etc etc.
first time i logged on a box popped up wanting my email address "to continue reading this article" i cancelled, had another go, no probs no email adress request and read it.
i found it ironic (?) that the author a proffessor was quoting "animal farm" to denigrate ppl who disagree with her and her powerfull cohorts who are all on the govt payroll...talk about "the kettle calling the pot black", oh cheeze i did'nt mean that to sound like a pun, another anomaly would be "shooting oneself in the foot".
i found the request (demand?) for my email an invasion of my privacy especially on such a sensitive and politically charged topic.
all that article has done is imo proven the fact the key instigators behind this voice are not our first nations ppl but govt beauracrats wanting another "agency" for their self grandiosement..sic
and a future career for their rellies and mates all at the expense of the plebs.
it allso shows the low standard of discourse we can expect from these academic "leaders".
george orwell wrote "animal farm" i think? and "1984"? he was spot on!
if anyone knows this proffessor please forward my post but don't give out my email adress, she may send round the "knackers" truck for me...hahaha

Supafreak Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 4:30pm

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and a vote either yes or no , I will be voting yes .

blackers Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 4:35pm

Happyppl, that request for your email is from the publishers of the Saturday Paper, nothing to do with Marcia Langton.
As for your disagreement with her views, each to their own. She is a respected community leader and many people agree with her.

Supafreak Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 5:11pm

Old spud really isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed .

My letter to the PM on behalf of millions of Aussies who just want the detail. pic.twitter.com/rN5REotykj
— Peter Dutton (@PeterDutton_MP) January 8, 2023

the majority of comments show that spud is bit of a dick

sypkan Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 7:18pm

happyppl wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/opinion/topic/2023/01/07/fighting-voice. Marcia Langton
Fighting for a Voice

supafreak thankyou 4 the info, i have not logged on since my post cos i was expecting a barrage of irate responses and am astonished at the silence, i knew that my opinion was aligned with lnp's...for the record i despise howard abbot scomo et all, neoliberal policies, privatisation of public utilities and the secret state "shenanigans" of these "flogs" etc etc.
first time i logged on a box popped up wanting my email address "to continue reading this article" i cancelled, had another go, no probs no email adress request and read it.
i found it ironic (?) that the author a proffessor was quoting "animal farm" to denigrate ppl who disagree with her and her powerfull cohorts who are all on the govt payroll...talk about "the kettle calling the pot black", oh cheeze i did'nt mean that to sound like a pun, another anomaly would be "shooting oneself in the foot".
i found the request (demand?) for my email an invasion of my privacy especially on such a sensitive and politically charged topic.
all that article has done is imo proven the fact the key instigators behind this voice are not our first nations ppl but govt beauracrats wanting another "agency" for their self grandiosement..sic
and a future career for their rellies and mates all at the expense of the plebs.
it allso shows the low standard of discourse we can expect from these academic "leaders".
george orwell wrote "animal farm" i think? and "1984"? he was spot on!
if anyone knows this proffessor please forward my post but don't give out my email adress, she may send round the "knackers" truck for me...hahaha

you're not alone in your thoughts and feelings happyppl

on all of the above... (nearly all)

people (black and white) share your concerns...

"Greens senator Lidia Thorpe has praised Coalition senator and leading No campaigner Jacinta Nampijinpa Price for calling for more transparency around the Voice to parliament as she insisted the party still did not have a final position on whether it will support the referendum.

As the Greens’ spokeswoman on First Nations issues, Thorpe said that while she and Price approached the Voice from “a completely different angle”, they shared a similar scepticism about the need for another advisory body and the Indigenous leaders “handpicked” by the Albanese government to steer the process.

“Both of us in our collective experience have seen numerous advisory bodies try and fix things and fail. She has also seen the hand-picked spokespeople for our people, who she doesn’t agree with, and nor do I,” Thorpe told this masthead.

“I think transparency and accountability through any process that this country wants to take about making a decision on our lives is paramount – and I think that’s what Jacinta is bringing out and good on her.”..."

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/good-on-her-thorpe-backs-price-o...

(open in 'secret mode' or 'incognito' if it wants a subscription (or your email...))

sypkan Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 7:20pm

and a paragraph for the smiley guy...

"...Thorpe added that people needed to respect there was not a singular homogeneous view across the Indigenous community, saying: “We have different ways that we think would bring this country together. Jacinta has hers and I, through the black grassroots movement in this country, have another way.”..."

sypkan Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 7:50pm

fwiw, I honestly don't know which way I will vote

...but labor will have to come up with something pretty good (with detail!!) to encourage me...

at the same time, labor have taken on a very vexxed agenda...

its clear they don't want to scare people with big changes...

and it's clear they're playing the very contemporary political small target game of 'tell em nothing' and try and sneak shit through with minimal debate...

re. the first point, I honestly cannot believe they're pushing a referendum on the whole country, on one pretty small change, that is actually being marketed as being pretty innoculous...

seriously all this lead up...

all the millions and millions of dollars spent - billions probably...

...and the changing of the constitution, for something that is actually being marketed as not changing much...

seriously, for all that investment, and for the significance of holding a referendum... I personally believe the subject / agenda / return is a wasted opportunity...

especially considering the country is burning all its future referendum likelihood - for any issue - for probably 20 years or more...

poor investment and return from my perspective

a waste of opportunity

GuySmiley Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 8:04pm

sypkan wrote:
and a paragraph for the smiley guy...

"...Thorpe added that people needed to respect there was not a singular homogeneous view across the Indigenous community, saying: “We have different ways that we think would bring this country together. Jacinta has hers and I, through the black grassroots movement in this country, have another way.”..."

No shit Einstein

Supafreak Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 8:17pm

https://voice.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-12/indigenous-voice-c...

sypkan Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 10:41pm

GuySmiley wrote:
sypkan wrote:
and a paragraph for the smiley guy...

"...Thorpe added that people needed to respect there was not a singular homogeneous view across the Indigenous community, saying: “We have different ways that we think would bring this country together. Jacinta has hers and I, through the black grassroots movement in this country, have another way.”..."

No shit Einstein

so why have you been arguing the opposite?

sypkan Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 11:06pm

Supafreak wrote:
https://voice.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-12/indigenous-voice-c...

if that is aimed at me... thanks...

in my studies I read a heap of pdf's just like that, and after a quick skim, I don't see anything particularly new

Im not gonna read all that - and niether are the vast vast majority of australians ... no matter how many times langton (lazily) just refers them to her 5000 pages of research...

and frankly, I don't give a shit about the design process. I want to know the mechanics of it, how, this time, it will be different?

"...Thorpe said that while she and Price approached the Voice from “a completely different angle”, they shared a similar scepticism about the need for another advisory body and the Indigenous leaders “handpicked” by the Albanese government to steer the process.

it is up to labor to explain what they are offering, ...not to just dismiss people's concerns and refer them to thousands of pages (and millions of $) of oh so typical technocratic 'research'...

labor need to explain the how's and why's... they need to explain the practical outcomes it will achieve, and how it will do it... its up to labor to sell their baby... not just dismiss and belittle people...

so far, they seem either unwilling or incapable of doing this

I get it the document is pretty fresh, but selling the whole idea 'on principle' ain't good enough

sorry

bluediamond Monday, 9 Jan 2023 at 12:59am

Good conversation above folks. Regardless of motives and outcomes, its bloody awesome to see the actual conversation taking place. I think thats a huge step in a positive direction. I remember hearing Albanese saying this was Labors number 1 priority in 2023. Thats a big big statement when u think about it. What that actually means, who knows. Been enjoying reading the above comments. Cheers all.

Supafreak Monday, 9 Jan 2023 at 8:30am

@sypkan , the link I put up wasn’t aimed at you . I put it up for anyone that was interested. I haven’t read it myself, 272 pages long and I too skimmed over it . I support a yes vote mainly on principle on what the voice is trying to achieve. I agree with you that the majority of Australians won’t be be bothered reading everything that’s so far been made available. It wouldn’t matter how much detail was presented, people will still go but but but . Will the voice be successful if voted in by the people ? Only time will tell . Here’s a simple version for anyone interested . Look through the menu top right . https://fromtheheart.com.au/uluru-statement/what-does-it-mean/

AndyM Monday, 9 Jan 2023 at 8:37am

bluediamond wrote:
Good conversation above folks. Regardless of motives and outcomes, its bloody awesome to see the actual conversation taking place. I think thats a huge step in a positive direction. I remember hearing Albanese saying this was Labors number 1 priority in 2023. Thats a big big statement when u think about it. What that actually means, who knows. Been enjoying reading the above comments. Cheers all.

"its bloody awesome to see the actual conversation taking place."
Agreed, it's long overdue to say the least.
I thought it was happening in the 80s but it all seemed to be pushed to one side.
I just hope that this time any social and economic progress and moves towards meaningful reconciliation aren't lost under a mountain of bureaucracy and dirty politicking.
We will see.

GuySmiley Monday, 9 Jan 2023 at 11:21am

sypkan wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
sypkan wrote:
and a paragraph for the smiley guy...

"...Thorpe added that people needed to respect there was not a singular homogeneous view across the Indigenous community, saying: “We have different ways that we think would bring this country together. Jacinta has hers and I, through the black grassroots movement in this country, have another way.”..."

No shit Einstein

so why have you been arguing the opposite?

You're none too sharp sykpan, perhaps sharp as a bowling ball.

"...people needed to respect there was (is) not a singular homogeneous view across the Indigenous community ...". Please enlighten me where I've argued against this fundamental principle of Govt engagement with Indigenous groups

" ....Jacinta has hers and I, through the black grassroots movement in this country, have another way.”

That's a fact and precisely what I've previously said. Price is perfectly entitled to her view as an elected Senator as does Thorpe.

Importantly Price, however, has no Aboriginal community backing nor status while Thorpe at least comes from a family rich in action towards community advancement going back to her grandmother.

So what's it going to be sypkan? Agree that Aboriginal communities need to be truly engaged/consulted as implied in "...people needed to respect there was (is) not a singular homogeneous view across the Indigenous community ..." or are you and others going to instead listen to Senator Price who offers an unrepresentative (from the Aboriginal community perspective) singular homogeneous view about the voice?

Supafreak Monday, 9 Jan 2023 at 11:26am

This pair should stay off social media, they get flogged every time they post something .

Yet again @AlboMP declines to answer very important questions that are foundational to his very significant proposal to change the Constitution. There are no blank cheques on constitutional reform – success requires being straight with people. Australians deserve the full detail. https://t.co/NpNxi4kRYV
— Sussan Ley (@sussanley) January 8, 2023

andy-mac Monday, 9 Jan 2023 at 12:32pm

Supafreak wrote:
This pair should stay off social media, they get flogged every time they post something . https://twitter.com/sussanley/status/1611943461904863232?s=46&t=-P7_ksvq...

The mean spirited nastiness of the LNP continues to shine. May they long be in opposition....

happyppl Monday, 9 Jan 2023 at 12:39pm

sypo and blue d appreciate the input, this is the way to discuss this issue, not the divisive lack of information by the pro voice ppl.
have printed a copy of prof langton opinion piece, wow! cheap shots at opponents or ppl asking for clarity, animal farm? yes prof u fit the tag, keeping the plebs in the dark, u know whats best.
the racist dig at jacinta price..."celtic-warlpiri" .
ken wyat? rio tinto cave kaboom! oh well canberra bubble is soundproofed, "she'll be right".
i hope they don't organise "peacefull protests" ala usa and now brazil, back your opinion with facts and debate.

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