Australia - you're standing in it
Sure Flip, but how many Gerry Harveys are there as a percentage of population?
I'd argue that in addition to closing the loopholes that enable the wealthiest of the wealthy to avoid paying a fair amount of tax, but to increase the wealth of those on $50k and tax them fairly. You take from a billionaire an extra 10% and you make $100,000,000. You take $5k each from a million people and rake in $5,000,000,000. Overly simplistic but I reckon you want to increase the wealth of the masses rather than decrease the wealth of the richest.
Singapore compared to Australia.
Singapore - 728 square kilometres.
Australia. - 7.74 million square kilometres, give or take a sheep station. Actually, most sheep stations are multiples bigger than Singapore.
Politics - Singapore - basically a one party autocracy.
Australia, - a struggling middle power democracy.
Yeah, really relevant comparing tax rates. That really gets to the heart of the matter.
Interesting Zen, but taxing the poor ($50K is poor in Oz), and I think you just compared reducing the wealth of the poor as being better than reducing the wealth of the filthy rich. Strange sums.
Not really BF and I did admit to being overly simplistic but I did say the goal is to increase the wealth of the masses and tax them fairly. I'm hopeless at maths but take my example- tax a million people on $50k five percent and tax the billionaire ten percent. Five billion to one hundred million. So my argument is to work to increase the wealth of the average person and ensure the mega wealthy pay their fair share whatever is considered reasonable.
How much tax do you think Gerry Harvey should pay?
Edit- told you, hopeless at maths. I mean tax the masses at ten percent ($5k pp) five billion. Anyway, long day, hope you get the gist of what I'm saying.
I studied tax law back in the early 90s and we had to buy the tax legislation. It was 4 volumes, and when stacked up, it was 25cm high. And it's only got much more complex since then. All those loop-holes aren't for wage earners folks.
Back then, the lecturer asked us who wrote these volumes. Nobody knew the answer so he just said, "the people and companies who donate large amounts of cash to political parties." It was a joke 30 years ago. It's much worse now.
This is how power works in Australia. Wage owners don't have any power, big businesses do, and that's why we have our shitty tax system that rewards fuckers like Gerry Harvey.
Cheers Zen, I know you’re heart is in the right place, just the math needs work.
Progressive taxation has its limits, but it’s way outside where we are now. The neocon con is that reducing taxes “incentivises” the masses. I’ve worked with the masses, and they have no idea how the tax system works. Further, I know that a tax rate of 50% of profits over any number has absolutely zero effect compared to taxing 60% of profits over a certain number.
Very few people make life decisions based on their tax rate. I did though, when my effective marginal tax rate was 61.5%, but nobody I knew understood that even when I explained it to them. Even a very senior Macquarie Bank executive who was and remains a friend of mine. It’s a little arcane.
Once you get to very high levels of wealth it’s all a bit of a big swinging dick party. They don’t actually care, apart from what they can brag about at their soirées. Honestly, it’s a shit show. It could barely be worse. In summary, people aren’t motivated to earn and achieve according to tax rates.
If anyone has anything to offer as a rejoinder to that last remark, I’d love to hear it.
Mr Harvey was an easy target Zen but I take your point.
Agree that all the loopholes need fixing. Also the subsidies to private corporations need abolishing, a penny saved a penny earned type of thing.
We are giving billions a year to mining companies, who avoid tax, billions to churches, in their various disguises (schools, hospitals etc) who don’t pay tax, we are now paying land holders to do nothing so they can capture carbon in the soil, paying to develop other carbon technology for polluters, international consultants whose profits disappear overseas and on and on it goes.
Bringing in Gonski reforms to fund all schools not just a select bunch might help to lift the prospects of all Aussie kids. Redeveloping the tafe and apprenticeship system might help grow the economy as well and extend the revenue base.
batfink I’ve been leasing a shed for my business on what on a (ex) farm property for the last 15 years. It’s owned by Italians and theirs is the stereo typical immigrant story. Arrived in the 50’s worked hard and smart and have done well for themselves. Going by my invoice number each month there are about 29, mostly commercial properties, in their superfund, so doing quite well.
He’s never mentioned tax only hard work and investing, (in fact that is just about all he talks about) Although his son did turn up with a new Hilux one day and said his dad had a tax problem so needed to spend a bit. As a family they are driven by a very strong work ethic and it has been a revelation to see it up close. I’ve always been keen on work but these guys are next level, it almost over rides everything else. Money and its pursuit is king
Everyone HAS to pay capital gains tax on Everything other than their place of residence . Big penalties if they don't . If you sell and investment and make $200k gain in less than a year it is added to your income and you pay at that tax rate . If you have held the investment for more than one year the gain halves .
All businesses ( including mining companies ) HAVE to pay taxes on their profits . They also pay huge sums to state governments in royalties , All Australians should thank them for taking huge risks in the early days to build these businesses . Has added up to trillions with billions being added
EVERY year .Nearly ALL businesses started small .
Gerry would be scrutinized by people ( not just swellnet posters ) and would pay all the tax he is legally meant to pay .
Many loop holes should be changed/stopped but many need to be added to ( I am no tax expert ) to provide help to build a small business . They are the main employer of Australians ( more than all the bloody governments put together )There are way too many loop holes which is why Mega wealthy people need to employ tax experts to reduce the tax they have to pay .
Small and big business starting with a great new idea . There are rebates for R&D , losses ( when building a business and employing people this happens ) can be used to off set future profits , I can claim tax relief for the costs incurred from working at home etc etc
I do not know Gerry or Twiggy . I do not bag them for being successful at building huge businesses that employ millions of Australians . I congratulate them !
If our tax rates were fair , much more simple ( less loop holes ) there would be more money for our governments to waste ( they would no off any debt as they would leave that for someone else ie our kids and their kids ) .
sure about that Hutchy?
Never sure about anything I write freeride . Had another read of my post and it looks ok to me .
Happy to double check any part if you let me know .
just a gee up Hutchy over the triple post.
Hutchy, someone smarter than me has done the numbers and the picture isn't as rosy as the mining companies make it out to be. I reckon overall Australia would be better off if we received more of the take and should look at the ways these companies are using to minimize what they should really be paying. There's plenty of evidence of dodgy accounting practices going on to reduce their profits
https://www.michaelwest.com.au/mining-lobby-exaggerates-taxes-and-royalt...
https://www.michaelwest.com.au/fossil-fuel-fiesta-australias-coal-and-ga...
By the way I'm not bagging these guys, I actually admire what they have achieved and how they have built great businesses. I certainly don't under estimate their importance, it's just that there are too many concessions and subsidies being made to those companies when they would still be doing quite okay without the handouts. The more they get the less there is for the little guy.
Same goes for subsidizing private hospitals and private schools that are largely owned by churches, why should I as a taxpayer wear that burden?
My take on the ABC article was that it is suggesting the tax should be on capital gains and wealth before property or assets are sold. Personally I reckon good luck with that idea, can't see it happening
I agree with what you are saying about small businesses, they really need a leg up now and then.
Fliplid Had a quick read of both articles . Would point out that both Michael West and the ABC have shown they have their own agenda's and biases . I will use his own article and assume his figures/comments are correct .
Peak lobby group the Mineral Council of Australia commissioned Deloitte to showcase the contribution that mining companies supposedly make to the Australian economy. Deloitte estimates that between 2010 and 2019 the mining industry paid a total of $238.8 billion in company tax and royalties to the States, Territories, and the Commonwealth.
Deloitte relied on data from the Australian Taxation Office (ATO) and the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS). Michael West Media relied on the same data (as well as a range of other sources). The large discrepancy in findings between the two sources appears to come down to Deloitte’s estimates.
When comparing Deloitte’s estimates for the years where we have data available, between 2010 and 2017, we found the figures provided by Deloitte in its May 17 report had been exaggerated by an average of 19%.
I would say a 19% exaggeration is very surprising !!! With all the investigation and assumptions West would have tried to squeeze into his numbers it is soooo f..ken SMALL . Take 19% off Deloittes numbers
and it shows how important these industries are to Australia . As important it shows me how silly he is to use his own figures to bag an industry he hates which for proves the opposite .
These numbers to NOT include the taxes paid by employees on the miners and we all should know they are paid very well . They do include the money that all the associated business rely on that service the mining industry . The figures not not include all the infrastructure that they build and pay for like railway lines and roads . The governments don't build them which cane be a huge initial cost when building a project .
A 19% exaggeration is hilarious . I could name a million things that are exaggerated by 100% and no one blinks .
Not confusing tax cuts with reform both sides of AU politics would now have zero appetite to take anything serious to the electorate before an election.
It is said that the most efficient tax available to govt is the GST yet both sides are risk adverse when it comes to reforming it.
Labor says any increase or broadening would adversely effect the lowest paid without adequate offsets (hard as low income earners already pay little or no tax on their salary) and the LNP don't want to broaden or increase because (a) so many items eg private school fees their base spend money on are GST exempt and (b) their ideological mantras (i) only a LNP govt will tax people less and (ii) tax (in general) is bad and small govt is good.
Compare the GST here and elsewhere to see how frozen in time AU is when it comes to reform. An increasing and a broadening (no exempts everything is counted) of the GST would be a good start on reforming tax in this country but only a start ................
But good luck with wanting any reform coz wedge politics is just too easy especially sweetened by a $6 tax cut to the gullible masses and reform well that's hard work especially in AU.
Know I can get excited Freeride but no triple post on my screen . Have done doubles earlier on but a triple would be a new record .
What a lovely couple , worst thing to happen was CK promoting ivermectin, that instantly killed it for most people . https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/a-huge-war-chest-craig-kelly-joi...
Can confirm there was a triple post Hutchy, it got cleaned up
Sorry everyone . New at this social media caper . Also busy doing other things so being to quick ( and overly excited ) .
Thanks for letting me know . I will be much more careful in the future ( one day probably ) .
Complimentary stories
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/grandmother-with-cancer-barred-f...
“Dianne Jagelman is battling cancer, but she says there is something worse than that – being barred from seeing her London-based grandchildren, despite three applications to leave the country to visit them while she still can.
The 74-year-old Darling Point resident in Sydney’s east has made three applications to the Department of Home Affairs to be allowed to travel to London on compassionate grounds“
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2021/08/cant-quarantine-stranded-aussie...
“18 months on from the pandemic and there are still tens-of-thousands of Australians stuck overseas and unable to return home due to: 1) prohibitive arrivals caps and quarantine limits; and 2) extortionately expensive airfares and quarantine costs.
For more than a year we have witnessed our state and federal governments bicker over arrival numbers, quarantine costs, and whether quarantine should be moved from city hotels to the regions. Meanwhile, Australians stranded abroad are watching on in dismay wondering if they’ll ever come home.
In the ultimate insult, our governments have established special subsidised quarantine arrangements for migrant fruit pickers.
That’s right, while the Victorian Government has tightly restricted and regularly banned overseas arrivals into Melbourne as it grapples with regular COVID outbreaks, it paid the Tasmanian Government $7.8 million to quarantine 1,500 migrant fruit pickers:
The Victorian Government will… cover most of the cost associated with quarantining up to 1,500 Pacific Islander workers under its partnership with Tasmania through a $7.8 million funding commitment, with industry contributing $2,000 per worker.
This support package, developed in consultation with industry, will help address the barriers faced by farm businesses in attracting the local workforce that is crucial to this season’s harvest, while also keeping the costs to industry to a minimum.“
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-post-underpaid-more-th...
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-post-senior-staff-rewa...
Why is this not surprising?
And dear old Ahmed was only pulling in $6m a year - and poor Christine only got a $1m settlement for people saying nasty things about her.
No doubt Michael West has an agenda Hutchy but exposing bullshit and corruption is a pretty good one to have
Roker wrote:https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-post-underpaid-more-th...
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-post-senior-staff-rewa...
Why is this not surprising?
And dear old Ahmed was only pulling in $6m a year - and poor Christine only got a $1m settlement for people saying nasty things about her.
Govt owned. Govt appointed directors…will always happen. I think they have zero independent directors to keep an eye on the govt appointments.
Flipid -"No doubt Michael West has an agenda Hutchy but exposing bullshit and corruption is a pretty good one to have".
You are right and can have your opinion which I do not agree with . I would prefer he didn't expose his bullshit and corruption .
20 years today the Tampa rescued 433 Afghanis escaping the Taliban.
Yeah Hutchy, he’s a scourge on the nation, should be locked up, not like that crusader Murdoch
Guy, I’m confused. Weren’t the Tampa refugees the terrorists?
A genuine right winger finally pops their head on the forums and there’s nary a peep from the rabid fake left.
Hutchy 19 wrote:Fliplid Had a quick read of both articles . Would point out that both Michael West and the ABC have shown they have their own agenda's and biases . I will use his own article and assume his figures/comments are correct .
Peak lobby group the Mineral Council of Australia commissioned Deloitte to showcase the contribution that mining companies supposedly make to the Australian economy. Deloitte estimates that between 2010 and 2019 the mining industry paid a total of $238.8 billion in company tax and royalties to the States, Territories, and the Commonwealth.
Deloitte relied on data from the Australian Taxation Office (ATO) and the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS). Michael West Media relied on the same data (as well as a range of other sources). The large discrepancy in findings between the two sources appears to come down to Deloitte’s estimates.
When comparing Deloitte’s estimates for the years where we have data available, between 2010 and 2017, we found the figures provided by Deloitte in its May 17 report had been exaggerated by an average of 19%.
I would say a 19% exaggeration is very surprising !!! With all the investigation and assumptions West would have tried to squeeze into his numbers it is soooo f..ken SMALL . Take 19% off Deloittes numbers
and it shows how important these industries are to Australia . As important it shows me how silly he is to use his own figures to bag an industry he hates which for proves the opposite .These numbers to NOT include the taxes paid by employees on the miners and we all should know they are paid very well . They do include the money that all the associated business rely on that service the mining industry . The figures not not include all the infrastructure that they build and pay for like railway lines and roads . The governments don't build them which cane be a huge initial cost when building a project .
A 19% exaggeration is hilarious . I could name a million things that are exaggerated by 100% and no one blinks .
I agree with much of this, the reality is the mining industry provides huge money to the government that benefits all Australians thought royalties, tax and payroll tax.
Not only that that but they also provide jobs, and its the kind of game many spend only a few years in so even the amount of jobs it provides is not an accurate picture, the benefit is actually larger, I've had friends do a few years stints and come out pretty much buying houses or starting business, these are guys that had no real qualifications degrees or trade qualifications but are now set up for life, over a span of 20 years you could easily see 4 guys for each position do this (off course some blow the money too)
There is also a large benefit that is also often forgotten to other Australian business that provide services, supplies, equipment to these mining companies and then you often have economies booming in the the nearest major town/city where workers often set up base and even continue living and they spend their money very freely..
Sadly its become kind of trendy to hate on mining the irony being the PC/Phone people used while commenting relies on mining, people like Michael West just play up to these people and mindset, it is what it is though he has just found a niche in the media landscape, but yeah off course no media is accurate most media just gives the slant people want to hear to get clicks or sells papers, if you don't give them what they want they want come back.
Fliplid wrote:Yeah Hutchy, he’s a scourge on the nation, should be locked up, not like that crusader Murdoch
Guy, I’m confused. Weren’t the Tampa refugees the terrorists?
Truth over board Fliplid
Give 19% of your wage back to your employer first Hutchy then come back and tell us how insignificant it was! Mining companies are not benevolent benefactors, they are taking as much as they can for as little as possible and stack the political deck heavily in their own favour, as far as royalties and taxes from the major players goes, the owners of the resources, the public of Australia, are getting a raw deal.
Soggydog - if interested check out my post on Climate Change as it refers to people like you .
I already give 40% + ( tax )plus back to my employer ie Australia . I work for myself . This does not include GST and the many other taxes .
Suggest you dry out your brain soggyone .
I will save you the effort Soggybrain .
Checked the surf reports and had a quick virtual surf at Duranbah . Unfortunately saw this comment from JQ which demands a response .
"Gee it would be really good if there were a way to recoup some of the costs of climate change that will be realised in the coming decades from those who willfully deny it and distort the science for their own petty ideological desires.
Love to see their estates held liable. The evidence is clear, the science is settled at this point the only deniers left are the deeply ideological."
I would vote for this in a heart beat !!!!!!
I will use a Rainforest analogy . Say there are 10,000 plants and trees in our rainforest . We see that the rainforest is changing ( as it always has ) . Due to our overly inflated view of our importance we think that the extra plant we recently planted will fuck the whole rainforest . The plant we planted is CO2 . There was 3 but now there is 4 . This plant also feeds ALL the other plants .
I REALLY can't get my head around this simplistic view . People do believe this and say the science is settled . They can't give me the name of ANY other science that is settled .
The pigmy brains also tell me that we should ban free speech , abuse people ( or institutions ) who are religious or have made a lot of money , happily watch people die that don't agree with them , that 85% of Australians are racist etc etc .
When you try and offer them a helping hand to pull them out of the shit they say get fucked you c..t .
Australians that are not Standing in it , they are happily lying in SHIT .
Hutchy, I'm concerned about your business. You say you work for yourself yet seem to be ever present on these forums. Perhaps you need to be devoting more time to work, family and other hobbies.
"A genuine right winger finally pops their head on the forums and there’s nary a peep from the rabid fake left."
yep, my thoughts exactly...
I find it refreshing to finally get some 'perspective' and dare I say balance...
go hard hutchy, I don't need to agree with you to appreciate your position (as messaed up, indoctrinated, and bias as it is...)
arcadia, was wondering the same thing about brutus.
@VicLocal, this hutchy dude today is questioning the science of climate change and is defending free speech of conservatives while referencing religion on top of his other multiple previous conservative leaning contributions. Reckon we got it wrong I'm now thinking he's a fringe member of Hillsong or even worse the ACL, maybe a Lyle Shelton type of twat who surprise surprise denies there is any climate emergency and is a supporter of that ex furniture salesman now independent MP Craig Kelly.
D-Rex wrote:arcadia, was wondering the same thing about brutus.
A shaper among surfers.
Crazy isn't it?
Indo I know a few people who've done the same. I'm not against mining. I'm against the way the companies manipulate the system to avoid paying taxes that are due.
Hutchy - "You are right and can have your opinion which I do not agree with . I would prefer he didn't expose his bullshit and corruption"
Michael West is just a starting point for me Hutchy.
So when he writes an article that says Chevron shafted the ATO out of tax receipts of $340 million I look else where and guess what? Articles confirming the court case all over the shop.
When he writes that BHP shafted the ATO out of $529 million, I go looking somewhere else. Same result, articles all over the internet, even confirms it own BHPs own website
Might surprise you that I even give what you write down some thought, but I usually end up in a rainforest somewhere
Arcadia - unfortunately can not go surfing or play golf at the moment . I am keeping up with my reading .
Just got back from a walk with my eldest daughter . A wonderful time of the year here in Melb with Spring flowers everywhere .
I do sort of work for myself . No one tells me what to do ( other than play by the rules which I always do ) or asks what I am planning to do . I do have to work for a licensee . I have to give them 60% of what I write for the privilege ( another haircut soggydog ) .
Due to circumstances I am having the best month in 5 years businesswise .All the crap I am responding to on this site is not having a detrimental effect . I always will monitor that though .
Had a great night sleep last night . A huge smile helps to nod off . Enjoyed having the boys wondering about who , why , how much etc . Hilarious !
Also got a smile from this .
@blowin with a truck load of goodwill you sometimes remind me of Sesame Street's Oscar the Grouch who is always at his happiest when he is at his most annoyed!! hehehe
What are you reading at the moment Hutchy?
And you, FR?
The Splendid and the Vile, Erik Larson, for me (Churchill and the Blitz). After that a re-read of Why We Drive by Matthew B Crawford.
Re-reading Vasily Grossman's Everything Flows.
I think better than anything Solzhenitsyn wrote, the chapter on Lenin is insane.
Thanks. Will investigate.
Sorry to divert from the book talk. Hope Hutchy and some others respond.
But did anyone else get a text from Craig Kelly and the UAP or something?
I deleted mine without reading it 'cos I'm terrified of malware.
But I'm also a bit concerned that somewhere/somehow some algorithm has concluded that my web browsing has pinged me as a likely supporter!
Effin' classic
@roker , I got one and opened it , just a speech from CK the new leader of UAP telling us all that ALP and LNP can’t be trusted, end lockdowns and blah blah blah . He’s got plenty of $$$ to play with in a advertising blitz
Thanks Sf.
I didn't even know he'd joined forces with Clive. Just when you think things are weird enough...
@roker , if you scroll up the page you will see Ive posted “ what a lovely couple “ there’s a link attached
Copy that Sf.
So candidates for office can skirt around any laws/rules/norms etc that govern hate speech, defamation, misinformation, contempt of court etc.
And CK's now got the means for a multi platform blitz.
I'd say the pandemic is revealing the 'quirks' of the constitution like no other time since 1975.
https://theconversation.com/craig-kellys-move-to-palmers-united-australi...
Copy that Sf.
So candidates for office can skirt around any laws/rules/norms etc that govern hate speech, defamation, misinformation, contempt of court etc.
And CK's now got the means for a multi platform blitz.
I'd say the pandemic is revealing the 'quirks' of the constitution like no other time since 1975.
https://theconversation.com/craig-kellys-move-to-palmers-united-australi...
Freeride - Sapiens - A Brief History of Mankind - Yuval Noah Harari .
I recommend it .
The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.