Turnbull rolls over "again" to the ultra right

SAS soldiers will be going in with the shipments. One stray bullet and this will escalate. And how would you know what most Australians want? Tones told you?

YS.. I sense you support the ISIS

We are seeing you true colours now tonybarber. Wanker. "Your either with us, or with the terrorists"!

tonybarber wrote:

YS.. I sense you support the ISIS

Ahh the good old "you're either with us or against us" bullshit..... Well, Tony, Shorten is on "your side" for this one....
I'd like to know when we are going over to save the enslaved North Koreans....... Ohhh, hang on.... No poll boost doing that......

Surrounded by idiots.......

Floyd ... Don't know Hugh White - don't care what he / she is.
If you don't have coal plants then how do you suggest to generate base load ?
BTW I work in IT for a Labor org but that is not relevant. RET is an important issue. Many people may not know the technical facts.

Yep we all are idiots... Time gents to go for a surf. (If you're religion / beliefs allow)

I hate all religions tony. And right-wing nutjobs posing as moderates. I knew we could unpeel your shell.....

tonybarber wrote:

Yep we all are idiots... Time gents to go for a surf. (If you're religion / beliefs allow)

Before you go, perhaps compliment Bill Shorten on backing up Abbott re' War involvement? .......... No..... Didn't think so.......
And instead of going for a surf, maybe enlist in the army if you feel so strongly about joining a 1500 year religious shit fight..... Ohh wait !!!! That's right!!! It's "other people" that do the fighting... You just do the surfing....

tonybarber wrote:

YS.. I sense you support the ISIS

TB, do you actually know anything about ISIS that is not fed to you by MSM?

Two of my best mates, one a Shi'ite from Iran (survived the Revolution, 1979), the other a Sunni from Lebanon (survived numerous Israel & internal conflicts) have given me such insight into what the real deal is, and it's not what the MSM wants you to believe.
Both lived a life that you can't imagine in your worst nightmare... the shit they lived had nothing to do with Islam. What it is about is money, power, sex and total domination to control that position of "authority on ALL things", and the willingness to do whatever it takes to maintain that position. I repeat, it has nothing to do with Islam, that's just a cover and something that gives MSM a convenient crutch to hang off.
No different to political parties lying and cheating to gain or maintain power, with a little less bloodshed in our case of the LNP at this current point.
One constant between ISIS, Hezbollah, LNP, etc is the destruction of science and critical thinking through various measures, namely the complete dumbing down of education systems and restriction of quality education to all but those who "are born to rule"... measures we are now seeing the LNP play out here in Oz.

As for the emotional blackmail of "with us or against us" stance, that is nothing but another form of terrorism... the taking of individual or group emotions hostage for ones own sick, perverted ideology.

So what has happened to the Abbott promise of $500 in savings on electricity after the carbon tax repeal? Up in smoke with the last tonne of burnt coal, that's where!

Here is a legit letter from Red Energy outlining that promised saving, less a few bucks.

MSM - ??? I can't see or know about LNP shopping heads off or killing women and children. I assume LNP means Libs ? I would be disappointed if your mates support ISIS.
Yep good to see Bill S stand up and support not just Libs but the rest of the world against ISIS.
I am bit close to this - I lost a few mates in Bali caused by radical Muslims. If you blokes want to condone / support them - you are in a bad space.

How was the surf tonybarber? You don't seem happy?

Where has anyone condoned or supported them????? So because YOU won't back an invasion of North Korea, that means YOU support their horrendous regime?
Just silliness, Tony........

tonybarber wrote:

I am bit close to this - I lost a few mates in Bali caused by radical Muslims. If you blokes want to condone / support them - you are in a bad space.

Every ozzy was a "bit" close to this, living in WA at the time, lost two work mates and a close friend and the brother of said friend was there too, survived to tell the horrific tale and then lived with me on and off for years... I know all about how fucked up it is but that does not make me want to go kill em all.

I do know that ISIS is the new product of American foreign policy... gotta have at least one new terror threat as Al'Qaeda are no longer a usable threat as the US are backing them in Syria, can't be seen to have double standards now can we?

What, condone them... how about the flip side, how can you condone US imperialist foreign policy that drives these trouble in the first place. Put aside the 2000yrs of inner conflict of the mid east, they residents of the mid east wouldn't give a fuck about the west if it wasn't for UK/US oil tyranny... does 1951 British Iran Oil Company, Mossadeq and Roosevelt mean anything to you? If not then best you go learn about Team America, Team Britain and now Team Australia.

No condoning here TB, only total disgust that so few can fuck up the existence of so many, all for what? Manifest Destiny in small minds of even smaller men?

Gee thanks for the compliments, thoughts and especially the concern about my good mates who are now not with us. You blokes are really GOOD blokes. If you not sure just a look in the mirror and see what type of bloke you are.
If you have the guts or temerity to understand what RET is or how it works and importantly how renewable energy works then spend a bit of time on the technical components, their costs, the advantages, disadvantages, you might understand why a couple of marine biologists wanting to save the barrier reef suggested we need to go nuclear. If you can't that then simply ask a solar panel company to come out and explain it all. That's easy if you have the guts.

When Bush , Blair and Howard illegally invaded Iraq they too said " you're either with us or with Saddam Hussein " History now shows how misguided and wrong they were, they turned the country into a living hell and are responsible for the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent men ,women and children.
They should be held accountable and be rotting in jail.
I used to wonder how the people of Germany allowed Hitler and the Nazi party to control their country, the election of this Abbott Liberal Govt. has cleared that one up for me.
Re the current situation with ISIS in Iraq we shouldn't be taking a leading role on the World stage, we are small fry and Bishop and Abbott should stop beating their chests and acting like bullies with a bad case of small man syndrome. However if enough major countries get involved we should help get rid of these evil butchers and stop them before they get any bigger.
I reckon Abbott must be rubbing his hands together praying for a terrorist attack on Aust. soil so he can gain a boost in the polls and show his leadership qualities as he rides the wave all the way to the beach.
How can anyone ever believe anything this twit says after all the lies and deceit of late? Cheers.

Beware this Baba tony........

I am no Tony supporter - but...
For those who don't think we should be joining the multilateral support for the Peshmerga, can I throw this hypothetical out there.
What if the second Iraq war had not happened, with all the neo-con baggage that went with it (ignoring the argument that this may not have happened in the first place). Would we be so anti the idea of sending aerial support (food and light arms aid) with the Iraq government's blessing I might add. To assist an armed force fighting what all the evidence seems to point to a fairly barbaric group of nutcases hell bent on destroying anyone and anything that doesnt fit their ideal.

I turned up to a number of anti iraq war protests when it was clear Howard was going to sign up, I am no fan of involving ourselves in external conflicts, but if you say no to this deployment - when do you say yes?

From all I can see there is more than enough justification to be undertaking the limited support that we are giving, given the current evidence presented by the UN on what is going on there:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48610#.VAWdg_mSzTc

http://childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/press-release/leila-zerrougui-spe...

At least the Germans were allowed to debate in parliament the idea of their assistance (which they decided to do - a big deal for them as they haven't provided arms to war zones since WW2) . Shoddy work here from Labor shutting down debate.

http://www.dw.de/germany-to-deliver-weapons-to-iraqi-kurds-battling-is-t...

I'm trying to put the Abbott hate aside and look at the bigger picture.

@mcbain you've come to the wrong forum topic my friend! this was started and is run by laborites who are still in shock about how and where their once mighty party has gone. Still in shock about being in opposition again and love nothing more than to cry and whinge about it.
Now they are trying to kill Tony with tactics invented by Tony.Imagine that? copying your direct opponent to gain victory? Or has it been done before? maybe 'John Howard lite" rings a bell?

Twas only a matter of time until the oil conspiracy was trundled out again. Really gotta love those guys who waste all their efforts on these conspiracy theories. Such valuable use of a taxpayer funded uni degree! They are hilarious!!!
The truth is out there!

Naa - its the right place - plenty of free thinkers here - just got to step away from the constant media din and think things through (without the conspiracy overtones).

@floyd excellent selective article picking mate.did you also see that julia gillard is in the witness stand tommorow over her union slush funds.slater and gordon lawyer firm in today..just juliar in all tommorow..stay tuned royal commission.from under my rock ;)

I only have wireless floyd. Could never see your cronies digging the miles of trench out to my rock!
I expect nothing to come of the gillard thing but it is interesting they have cleared the whole day to put pressure on her. Someone must be going after her for whatever reason.

@Floyd-and the labor list? Wasn't ICAC started because of the Labor party's criminality? round and round we go...

barley wrote:

@Floyd-and the labor list? Wasn't ICAC started because of the Labor party's criminality? round and round we go...

Yeah, but funny how it's now biting both side on the arse.....

@ barley, calling Julia Juliar is so last year, when it comes to lying your boyfriend and hero Tony Abbott makes her look like an amateur, but using your double standards I guess its o.k. and even expected for Liberals to lie to the electorate. Shouldn't you be out clearing some of those pesky last remaining pockets of native scrub like a good little liberal farmer. You could also ask your mate Tony to give you some much needed surfing lessons. Cheers.

Thanks for your input old dog.intellectual as always.

Not surprised at all Floyd. Pretty much chasing tails as with 60mins and their 'explosive' expose. How can they expect her to remember every detail 22 yrs ago? I did watch abit of it and even the examing lawyer didn't really know what he was on about!

I repeat... The coalition is a shit sandwich..... Labor is a turdburger..... Tough choice..... But I'll think I'll go the turdburger, cos' at least the bun is toasted and it doesn't go soggy like the shit sandwich........

Tony barber, just like to call 'rubbish on just about everything you have said about the RET and renewables.

Just about every stat you have thrown that I have read is just wrong. I am across the detail and the technical issues of the RET and renewable energy policy and production generally. Actually, the policy side of things is not that technical.

17% of the increase in power costs due to the RET. Just Plain Wrong. Almost all of the increase in cost was due to gold plating the delivery system, 'poles and wires' as it became known, and a consequential rort based on the mechanisms of price setting and review. Carbon tax, a minor input to price increases.

The RET actually cost the consumer nothing. It was a target, not a cost or a tax, a target. so wrong on that count.

It ultimately led to a cost that was borne by the (mainly brown coal fired) electricity generators.

The RET set targets for production of renewable energy. It was a target, not tax. The increase in costs was in the fact that the highly subsidised brown and black coal industry had to source renewables, which weren't subsidised directly. Recent report from the industry commission showed that state govt subsidies to fossil fuel energy distributors amounted to $17 billion since 2009. $17B. That's just the state governments.

The old fossil fuel industries have rorted the taxpayer and energy consumer to the hilt, and renewables 'subsidies' amount to a small percentage of what is thrown their way, and yet still renewables are eating into the market on a cost competitive basis.

The RET created a situation where the peak loads were being ameliorated. Guess what, peak loads were the cream where the old fossil fuel generators used to make huge profits. Now the market has been turned upside down by, you guessed it renewables, and it is actually starting to look like a market instead of a power generators free for all. Wholesale prices of electricity have actually dropped, specifically and verifiably because of the renewables market.

But that wasn't enough for the current horde of power generators. Their entire business model now resembled a market, so the genarators looked to change the game and rort the system. Well, that's a surprise. If you look at your electricity bill over the years you will see that the delivery cost has gone up by 100's of percent, because their business model was losing money while the actual electricity consumed had dropped. Of course, they win either way, if you use more power we charge you more, and if you use less power we charge you more. We rort the system and win whichever way it goes. What's farking new!

Your 'technical knowledge' of renewable energy generally, baseload, and the RET are puddle deep.

The RET was a perfect way for the government to set the market without intervening in it. If the government got out of the market, i.e. removed all the current subsidies to fossil fuel generators, then the renewables market would beat the RET easily, and it wouldn't have to be a set target. If the government actually promoted the renewables over the fossil fuels, in the same way that they currently promote fossil fuels over the renewables, then the renewables market would be huge.

And what about the technical difficulties of turning renewables, and let's face it that means wind and solar at this stage, into base load. Well, it's a non-argument. Dr Richard Corkish, then the Head of School for Photovoltaics and reneweable energy, earlier this year had a letter published in the SMH advising that the base load issue could already be overcome. It isn't a science issue, it is a policy issue.

There's nothing technical about it at all, the technology currently exists, it just can't compete on price with the highly subsidised fossil fuel industry AT THIS STAGE.

And throwing up the nuclear power generation furphy! Have you no shame. Nuclear power actually NEVER repays the carbon inputs in building it in the first place. Concrete is a hugely carbon-intensive product to make, and the concrete in nuclear power stations makes their carbon emissions in production greater than what they can ever repay.

And 15 years life span for renewables (solar). Where did you read that? How much of this are you just making up to justify your jaundiced perspective. 40 to 50 years is pretty much minimum lifespan for photovoltaics and wind is longer with basic maintenance.

I can't agree with any comment you have made about the RET or renewables, your comments about nuclear, while attributing them to marine scientists on the Great Barrier Reef, are just plain wrong, and quite frankly you appear to be someone who has just been won over by the shallowest of arguments put forward by the lobby groups that currently run the country.

All up, I think you might be not very credible.

Bat fink ,

Whilst many of the facts you have stated are correct . This is a double edged sword .

Firstly there are a few tweaks that I would like to add .

2008 was around the peak consumption of power in Aust . And to a lesser extent the western world .
The RET was in its embryonic state , but the Quote of " gold plating " the poles and wires Infrastructure is always used as a misleading tool for every single side of any energy arguement .

There is a lot of coincidences there .
Firstly the price and availability of cheap A/C spilt units became Too easy for many , at an interesting peak in local ( Aust ) daytime maximum temperatures , increased by lack of water vapour inturn heightened by a long running drought .
Anyway in Victoria , the infrastructure system had been privatised for 10-15 years , not only was generation struggling to keep up with demand , but for atleast 3-5 years prior this pressure only exasperated itself with Hydro power being imported from NSW , which again exasperated the ongoing drought .
This peak load crisis spawned an unavoidable point where the prior privatised network had to be finally be worked on to deal with this burgeoning peak load crisis . Not only did the heat make the system less effective , it exponentially increased loads ..... ( chicken and egg stuff ) .

Anyway this was the start , from here with the introduction of the RET and indeed carbon trading world wide , we had a coincidental global downturn , that fortunately for us a mining boom here cushioned .

Needless to say the money the private operators had already invested in peak proofing and heaven forbids even actual maintenance or upkeep of an ageing network , they could no longer rely on runaway consumption pricing /income. Instead the economic downturn lowered usage , along with people finally adressong in efficiencies and actually going out of their way to lower consumption .
With the writing on the wall Smart metering was seen as another avenue to another way to maintain revenue schemes in a declining consumption market , the idea however was seeded back in the 2008 peak crisis .
So there you have another infrastructure cost of delivery cost , which add to this " gold plating " banner , all the while providing new and exciting ways to reap money off the public .... TOU tariffs anyone !!!!!

Investing in the infrastructure became the new avenue to keep revenue at a premium for the distributors /generation industries . So you have the old generators putting excessive blame on the renewables diversity of delivery' s effect on the network to charge people for what was ignored for years .

The effect of less centralised power distribution is a knock on effect that should not be ignored and is definitely a REAL cost , but saying they are " gold plating it " is the greener side being opportunistic back towards the brown side !
With diversified generation and multy directional power flows the network needs this upgrading ....
The RET is but one cog in a massive complex machine . But going forward it is a large cog from its knock on effect .
There will be a second peak , and I'm sure the distributors will be " unawares " again , with currently better ground moisture and lower daytime max temperature period , the next peak will sneak up when we swing back to dryer years again . Hell , we may even have to run these shelved but highly energy intensive Desal plants, at around the time that Electric car uptake takes off ....
So Gold plating has never looked more important ......
Timers and off peak loads will become our friends once again .

This topic is highly complex as is the actual network . A national grid is one thing that might alleviate the next peak , nationwide diversified generation makes PV a 16 hour daily input and wind far more reliable /smoother 24 hour generator ..
But a imagine that infrastructure cost , something a nation needs , to open up previously unimaginable growth corridors . Both residential , commercial and even pastoral .

Anyway , I digress ....
Back to the shitfight !!!!

Batfink…may wish to check with AEMO re RET.
Simply solution which has got nothing to do with political allegiances. Just go and call a solar panel company and get a quote for your house. They will explain it all for you. And the costs, and the technology and when you may need to do any maintenance and what to do, when the sun don't shine. Very simple and no emotion.
At this stage, I don't believe people want to have their power bills increasing more than CPI.

tonybarber and barley..... Even though I am politically opposed to much of what you say, you are a pair of tough hombres....... You've been outnumbered here..... But you continue to throw punches...... That's better and far more entertaining than a hold your hands kumbaya singalong..... So keep it up..... Looking forward calling "BS" on your next post ;)

tough hombres, haha clasic Sheepio.
You could also be one of the 3 Amigos, or better still take over Jack Blacks role in Nacho Libre ;)

Southey I posted a link on Solar Power a few days ago, any thoughts...! Cheers
Welly

You're a funny man, welly..... ;)

Sheepdog...I just follow the science and what we know of it (not much really) but us humans are learning everyday. I like Steven Hawkins saying 'let's work out if there is a god once we work out the beginning of the universe'.
One point that we all seem to agree on is - let's look after this spaceship Earth.

Tony... I have no problem with coal.... I'm still an agnostic re' global warming... I do see problem with de forestation of the planet though..... Not good.....
Now... God...... Holy dooly...... Agnostic there as well......I think it was Charles Darwin (I think) that stated the only logical conclusion that he could come up with, was to be agnostic..... Theists whole heartedly believe in the existence of a god without any scientific proof whatsoever...... Atheists believe that there is no god.... Yet they also cannot prove this..... they argue that it was the big bang that started the universe, but what caused the big bang? They'll find out one day... But what caused that?..... So, Darwin was right.... The only logical thing to say about whether a god or gods exist is to say "I don't know"...

Sheepdog...agree the elephant in the room is human population. Causing the deforestation as you mention. What I tend to see is everyone going on about global warming etc etc but when it comes to answers it ain't that obvious. Certainly not from what we know of the science today, we have a few options.
Sorry, just mentioned Steven Hawkins only because he is saying we have a long way to go to understand this place. God is not relevant to this discussion.

god- dog backwards hey- more like a devil- a cheeky one at that. YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT, THE REAL ISSUE IS THE INEFFICIENT USE OF RESOURCES. NATURE DOES NOT HAVE ONE PART OF ITSELF THAT DOES NOT CONSTRUCTIVELY USE ANOTHER PART OT ITSELF THAT HAS BEEN "DESTRUCTED". IT IS A CIRCULAR SYSTEM OF SELF SUSTAINABILITY THAT PROMOTES FUNCTIONAL EVOLUTION. ALL CREATED LIFE WORKS THIS WAY AND WHEN ONE ASPECT DISREGARDS THIS, LIFE/ NATURE HAS TO BRING IT BACK INTO HARMONIC FUNCTIONALITY. EG, HUMANS PUMPING CARBON EMISSIONS, VOLCANOES WILL DO THE SAME WITH DIRE CONSEQUENCES FOR HUMANITY. THERE IS AN ORIGINAL CREATIVE INTELLIGENCE, BUT IT NEVER OVER RIDES IT'S CREATION'S FREE WILL. HUMANITY HAS TO REALISE ITS INTERCONNECTEDNESS WITH ALL OTHER LIFE ASPECTS OR IT WILL BE BROUGHT BACK INTO LINE WHERE ALL ASPECTS CAN ILVE IN HARMONY. HUMANITY HAS TO START TRATING EAH OTHER AND THE PLANET WITH RESPECT, KINDNESS AND COMPASSION, OR ELSE THE PLANET WILL TREAT HUMANITY HOW WE HAVE BEEN ACTING.