457 visa

inzider wrote:

Burgersurf,

It is in your best interests to like the 457 visa as it brings in money for you, at the expense of your country men.
Granted there are highly specialised positions that need this visa from time to time, how ever
The reason there is huge skill shortages around NZ and OZ is because the youth are not being trained they are being left to rot on the dole. Big companies are bringing in 1000's of workers because they cant be bothered investing in the youth, they just want to maximise profits, and to hell with all the kids unemployed around the country, let them get into drugs and alcohol etc.
How many apprenticeships are out there ? Sweet fuck all my importing 457 visa champion.
Parts of OZ have youth unemployment rate as high as 20 % like Adelaide. Who is failing these kids ?
You think its lovely that all these imported labour blokes from every corner of the globe are getting a leg up from poverty, well aint that rosy, how about starting to think about looking after your own back yard before being on some moral high ground warm and fluffy high horse. Kids are the future who have to pay for the ever increasing grey wave thats coming. nah fuck it , lets just keep importing labour I;m makin my buck I hear you say.

Hi onsizer,
100% agree that there need to be more apprenticeships and in all honesty hiring internationals, as I said before that is a last resort and very painful process which the recruitment industry hates. There is a lot of bullshit in your assumptions and accusations, I don't get fat off international hires and it is never ever at my country mens expense... Like I said before, international hires are a LAST resort and the process takes ages and is only done when you can not find someone. What you say is akin to me saying that YOU are getting fat from screwing the rest of the world through the pollution depletion of natural resources cause of you and your employers greed... Come, cheap shot!

For 2 years I hired auditors from overseas and loads of them cause their are not enough qualified ones in Ausralia.... Train an accountant to be an auditor and when they get there Chartered qualifications they leave, cause auditing is shitty work. My clients lost 95% of their staff as soon as they qualified and every audit had to be led by a qyalified chartered accountant .

Working in the employment industry I know all about youth unemployment, it is very sad. Other major factors aside from a down turn in trade apprenticeships are moves to online shopping so no retail jobs, off shoring of manufacturing and youth not applying for work they don't want to do - did you know that in the 20-25 year old bracket unemployment doubles for uni grads who won't take work below them. A lot of the youngsters (uni grads and school leavers) won't do " anything" to earn a living like cleaning, telesales, kitchen hands , fruit picking, aged care etc . Plus they will not relocate for work.

inzider wrote:

Burgersurf,

It is in your best interests to like the 457 visa as it brings in money for you, at the expense of your country men.
Granted there are highly specialised positions that need this visa from time to time, how ever
The reason there is huge skill shortages around NZ and OZ is because the youth are not being trained they are being left to rot on the dole. Big companies are bringing in 1000's of workers because they cant be bothered investing in the youth, they just want to maximise profits, and to hell with all the kids unemployed around the country, let them get into drugs and alcohol etc.
How many apprenticeships are out there ? Sweet fuck all my importing 457 visa champion.
Parts of OZ have youth unemployment rate as high as 20 % like Adelaide. Who is failing these kids ?
You think its lovely that all these imported labour blokes from every corner of the globe are getting a leg up from poverty, well aint that rosy, how about starting to think about looking after your own back yard before being on some moral high ground warm and fluffy high horse. Kids are the future who have to pay for the ever increasing grey wave thats coming. nah fuck it , lets just keep importing labour I;m makin my buck I hear you say.

Hi onsizer,
100% agree that there need to be more apprenticeships and in all honesty hiring internationals, as I said before that is a last resort and very painful process which the recruitment industry hates. There is a lot of bullshit in your assumptions and accusations, I don't get fat off international hires and it is never ever at my country mens expense... Like I said before, international hires are a LAST resort and the process takes ages and is only done when you can not find someone. What you say is akin to me saying that YOU are getting fat from screwing the rest of the world through the pollution depletion of natural resources cause of you and your employers greed... Come, cheap shot!

For 2 years I hired auditors from overseas and loads of them cause their are not enough qualified ones in Ausralia.... Train an accountant to be an auditor and when they get there Chartered qualifications they leave, cause auditing is shitty work. My clients lost 95% of their staff as soon as they qualified and every audit had to be led by a qyalified chartered accountant .

Working in the employment industry I know all about youth unemployment, it is very sad. Other major factors aside from a down turn in trade apprenticeships are moves to online shopping so no retail jobs, off shoring of manufacturing and youth not applying for work they don't want to do - did you know that in the 20-25 year old bracket unemployment doubles for uni grads who won't take work below them. A lot of the youngsters (uni grads and school leavers) won't do " anything" to earn a living like cleaning, telesales, kitchen hands , fruit picking, aged care etc . Plus they will not relocate for work.

I dont know exactly how it all works this 457 visa stuff but if employers can use them as an excuse to hire workers cheaper, then there should be a fee/tax the employer must pay to the government to stop employers abusing the visas, to ensure they are only used as a last resort when special skilled workers can not be found or trained in a reasonable time frame.

Theres not many cases where we can learn from Indonesia, but this is how it works in Indonesia, technically foreigners can only work in Indonesia in specialised fields were there is a shortage of skilled workers, but they must pay a monthly manpower tax to the government on top of what they pay there employees and the tax is about the same as the minimum wage plus a fee to process the visa which is about ten times the minimum wage.

If a similar system was used in Australia it would solve any problems of employees abusing these visas, but if was a true high skilled job where they cant find an Australian to fill the position then its going to be a high payed position anyway, paying an extra $500 to the government a week plus a hefty application price isn't really going to matter in the scheme of things, as if you need a skilled worker that is so rare and specialised, the company will also be earning big bucks from them.

@Indo, good on you but with respect you are missing the point. Abbott's government has seriously relaxed the already loose 457 visa provisions to allow/encourage Australian business to get foreign workers into the country in competition with unemployed Australians. The law says its meant to be an action of last resort but the reality is businesses are hiring foreign workers in preference to Australians. The Liberals can't go to an election with work choices so they are turning a blind eye to 457 abuse. When was the last time any of us heard an industry leader call for IR reform? No need now, business has 457 to lower wages.

I have no problem with 457 workers coming here on mass with lower wages if that's what the Australian public want but let Abbott go to an election on it. Very cunning stunt by Abbott.

Can any one tell me if a company! that hires employees under 457 visas?
Does that company get compensation from the Government, say a percentage of the employees wage...???

But why do they allow this to happen? I don't see how it benefits Australia? ...to push down wages?

It just makes the difference between haves and have not bigger, like the USA?

@Indo

That is a very very good question ... I thought it was meant to be "Government for the people".

I can't believe how asleep Australians are to what is happening - attacks of education, health, age pensioners, environment and workers (via 457) and so on. There should be riots in the street.

On 457 visas I reckon it just comes down to ideology and the hidden promises to the big end of town. As I have previously suggested Howard/the Liberals/Conservatives learnt their lesson with Workchoices so they deliberately relaxed 457 visa provisions and is now turning a blind eye to its abuse to force wages down.

If this continues and Abbott gets a second term of government just how eroded will the average family's income/standard of living will be?

wellymon wrote:

Can any one tell me if a company! that hires employees under 457 visas?
Does that company get compensation from the Government, say a percentage of the employees wage...???

Anyone....?

Guys I think u are getting lost on the root cause of everyone's angst world wide ....
If u understand the concept of " the Great Leap Forward " , ( if you don't ???? , even Billy Bragg sang about it in the late Eightees /early Ninetee's !?!!!!! FFS ... )
Well globalisation has intensified the Great Leap Forward , but what the pundits of this didn't realise is the equalibrium is totally out of wack ... The sheer numbers in China , India , etc will mean that starting at the bottom of western culture and rising through it we are currently involved in " the great hand brake backwards " ....
We and our comfortable lifestyles will be dragged down as others scramble their way up .... And with giant populations like theirs , there's not a chance of there being any chivalry about it .... There's no way of removing , the dog eat dog survival of the fittest outlook that is bred into their culture .... When there is so much competition etiquette goes out the window as people will literally climb over one another to get up .
I've seen it in my industry , as numbers of competition rise the unscrupulously ambitious are rail raiding themselves down in a race to the bottom .
Fare is foul , and foul is fare ......
I'm one of those that have stopped employing apprentices , and scaled back my work force . ( I " gave " them a direct route to competitors , so don't jump on me ..... ) then I tried to concentrate on specialist activities as opposed to scale . It's worked , in that I haven't gone broke , but it's getting to the point that I'm starting to see the grass is greener and maybe looking to be head hunted , and park my business .
I see it happening with similar sized businesses daily .
You either grow unstably , or you get suffocated . Only problem is the longer you rise , eventually you blow out ...... I chose the short term pain option . You can't do surgery by numbers , best you stack your pile on winning letters .
So it's hopeless in my eyes , at least in this political climate .

So are we saying these Visa are here because we have a problem in Australia where we are to out of sync with rest of the world? Which is a problem as the world has become more global and.

Are our prices to high on everything, like real estate, electricity, food to high, which is driven by our high wages.

Id agree we cant compete globally especially with Asia on things like manufacturing and lot of other areas that if they can will go offshore, but i think its impossible to change one because we are all to greedy in the west and everyone from individuals to big companies think they never have enough.

I dont actually see why the government would even try to push wages down as it just means less money for them in taxes and just pushes the lower class lower causing more problems, that ultimately they have to try to fix costing them more money.

indo-dreaming wrote:

I dont actually see why the government would even try to push wages down as it just means less money for them in taxes and just pushes the lower class lower causing more problems, that ultimately they have to try to fix costing them more money.

Precisely, but only if you believe this Government is acting in the best interests of your average Australian.

Do you believe that? does the average Australian in the street believe that?

Look back on their failed budget; universally condemned as an attack on Australians that could least afford it.

Capital v Labour.

There is a great line in that great movie The Thin Red Line ...... "I see a different world".

It could be different world but in the market and in the deception of politics its a race to the bottom.

Just take it to an election you dishonest prick Abbott.

I think there's a lot of things contributing to this and youse have described some if them.

I think what everyone is overlooking is growth in certain wages. Miners and tradesmans wages have increased significant/y over the last 15-20 years, partly due to demand, but partly due to a change to fifo system. People won't like this, but one could argue tradesmans wages have gone up too much, because now tradesmen can earn more than politicians and academics. Which was why parents encouraged their kids to uni about 20 years ago, but about 10 years ago trades became accepted even preferred by parents as wages and opportunities increased. Conservatives don't lile those grubby tradesmen types earning so much money, so they need to do something.

As to bigger gaps between rich and poor and more people on the dole, well that's not a priority. As conservatives don't believe in all that rubbish and associated social programs because for conservatives, none of that works because it is their fundamental belief that "people don't change" hence you can't change people, so all that social stuff is a waste of time that they will pay lip service to so they do not upset voters but their heart isn't in it. They would rather import like minded 'go getter' types from overseas on a 'fair' wage in their eyes and leave the doleys to their self destructive tendencies.

As to the welfare state being the problem, it is a part of it but Scandinavian countries have more generous welfare than us without the dolebludgers probably because they are a prouder and more disciplined people than us, its about culcha!

Ironically it is the market that has pushed wages up, the market, that thing that conservatives believe will fix everything, if government stays out of it.

southey wrote:

The sheer numbers in China , India , etc will mean that starting at the bottom of western culture and rising through it we are currently involved in " the great hand brake backwards " ....
We and our comfortable lifestyles will be dragged down as others scramble their way up .... And with giant populations like theirs , there's not a chance of there being any chivalry about it .... .

Uuuummm you just have to go to the local college "Somerset" down the road from where we live, high end college, expensive private college and one of the best in QLD. In the last few years Ive noticed most participants are of Chinese origin. We sent our son there a few years ago and in all his classes the Chinese were the ducks......
Did they arrive on 457 visas or have loads of money...?

@welly ... I see you have been to the temple and spoken to the master; great link you posted. Anything to do with Gerry Lopez is good, he perhaps my one and only surfing god ever. That thing about finding the smoothest line and making it look as easy as possible really resonates; well the current top 40 circus monkeys wouldn't understand something as simple as that, you would have to throw in a 540 or something surely.

The thing about Asian students has been happening for along time and its a completely different issue to 457s. My son is doing engineering at Melbourne University and he is the only non-Asian student in an advanced maths lecture class of some 200 students. Housing around the better public and private schools in Melbourne has been purchased by Hong Kong residents and then lived in by their secondary school children while attending the elite secondary schools here. An elite girls private school nearby has a very high enrolment from the children of Hong Kong residents.

I think this student thing is good so long as Australian students are not disadvantaged in course selection etc and is a way of bridging cultural gaps, its way different to 457 which is the cynical manipulation of the labour market by a sewer rat sneaky government.

Loads of money wellymon, they are bypassing the hordes scrambling over each other. Friend was selling a business, Chinese guys come looking, they don't even care if its making money or not, they are jst buying permanent residency.

The scales of money difference are huge, we are like little Indonesia being bought up by westerners, except they were smart enough make sure indo's own the land.

Globalisation is not your friend

I didn't really know what those S11 protesters were on about years ago (I don't think they knew either).

But I knew they were onto something.

It turns out they were spot on about globalisation being a beast.

hey Sheepy,

I was talking to a Melbourne based businessman recently. He originally came from Tasmania and retains substantial business, residential, recreation and family links to Hobart. He can trace his family back 5 generations on the fair isle, most of whom were into timber or boats. He spends roughly 1/2 his time in Melbourne and 1/2 in Tasmania.

I raised the issue of 457 visas up at Cradle Mountain where youth unemployment is hitting 30%. He just shrugged his shoulders and said "that's Tasmania, some people just don't want to work or work full-time, just a few weeks here and a few weeks there". I was staggered and asked if it were fair enough to write people off like that, not to worry about lost opportunity and intergenerational unemployment and the fact that about 30% of Tasmanians are welfare dependent. No he said better the work gets done by someone willing to do it wherever they come from and not to worry about the unemployed. As I said I was staggered.

Tassie has copped a few hits over the last decade, Floyd.... Free trade apple deals, forestry etc.... And one must remember that Tassie's population is tiny ( 500 000)........ I'd like to know the population of western Sydney..... I'd like to know the welfare dependent rate in western Sydney, and what it would be if 2 major employment factors were decimated.... I'd like to know how many foreigners are working in western Sydney, doing medial work....
A quick google shows Greater western Sydney has 1 900 000 people at an unemployment rate of 9.2% So I think Tassie bashing is an easy option...

Now, "welfare dependent" is an interesting term..... An aged couple who have a house and savings may receive $50 per fortnight aged pension and a health care card.. They would be considered "welfare dependent"..... Again, easy to bash a region where there are heaps of oldies, and young go getters bail to the mainland....
As far as your friends comment " No he said better the work gets done by someone willing to do it wherever they come from and not to worry about the unemployed".... I agree.... I'd rather employ someone who wants to work and pay them out of my pocket than take on a "work for the doley" who doesn't want to be there, hasn't got his heart and my business in it, and just looks at the clock for knock off time..... Liability, even if I don't pay the wage....
"Here, mate, here's 250 a week, an xbox, and a bag of dope.... Now fuck to your share house and stay outa trouble....Make sure you pay the rent to your chinese landlord , and come and buy a pie off me on dole day.... You long term 3% of the unemployed have to keep stimulating the economy "...... ;)

Looks like those taswiegan doleys can put their feet up a little higher and pack a celebratory cone as their lifestyles won't be challenged by this government.

Under the new free trade agreement China can bring in its own workers to develop all those farms they have bought.

I agree with sheepy and co., id rather employ someone who wants to work as well, but where does this stuff end?

We are already an obese nation, do we wanr to be a nation of fat bastards rolling around unable to help ourselves while some nice migrant worker rolls us over to wipe our bums. Oh hang on that's the saudi Arabia model of development, bring in the pakistanis to do anything that resembles work. Yeh is rather have keen workers but i don't want to be surrounded by sloths masquarading as people.

Put another cushion under your precious feet doleys you wouldn't want a callous to develop because it looks like you won't have to move for a while yet.

Bit rough sypkan - not like you are living large being on the dole....have been there, done that and couldn't wait to get off it.

Benefit bashing is one thing but turning your back on these people, writing them off now and into the future as lazy druggies is an even more hideous act.

Really MD Morley? the dole was some of the best times of my life, you must have been doing it wrong.

But you are right, they are not living it large, and it does suck if you are looking for a job.

I genuinely feel for those 50 year old guys being told how to present to an interview, for a job he wont get, by some positively positive bubbly 19 year old office chick. that sucks.

But there are a lot of precious job snobs out there, and when employers can bring overseas workers to high unemployment areas for unskilled jobs through burgsurfer's supposedly vigourous process, there is something wrong.

I just get pissed because I work in a shitty industry Aussies dont want to, so I am surrounded by migrants, and all day at work I defend my doley Aussie brothers about being lazy, then at night I defend my migrant workmate brothers about them "stealing all our jobs", I am getting tired, I dont know who is telling the truth anymore.

But seriously, what really concerns me, is it seems governments have given up on these people. A lot of what sheepdog says is true regarding them being pretty harmless, and them contributing to the economy etc. etc. But as I am getting older and I turn into a bit of a killjoy, its clear this lifestyle is not healthy and most of them could be much happier.

I take your point regarding white collar stuff Inzider, and it amazes me what these guys get away with, but I think figures like you quote are a bit of a furphy as these guys are ruthless cunts and if you clamp down on them here, they will just move somewhere else taking their business with them.

I read somewhere recently that the total welfare spend in Australia is $200 billion but only around $70 billion goes in welfare payments, the rest goes in administrative costs and Job Network agencies etc.
The welfare quarantining program for aboriginal and other disadvantaged communities costs about $8000 per person per year to administer!
I wonder how much more we would be spending to administer the new 'work for the dole' scheme?

I read somewhere recently that the total welfare spend in Australia is $200 billion but only around $70 billion goes in welfare payments, the rest goes in administrative costs and Job Network agencies etc.
The welfare quarantining program for aboriginal and other disadvantaged communities costs about $8000 per person per year to administer!
I wonder how much more we would be spending to administer the new 'work for the dole' scheme?

At uni, i had a lecturer, adrian lynch, who was malcolm fraser's media man. they invented the term dole bludger because they couldn't deal with stagflation- google it. When you cast judgment, you allow judgment to be used against you. The great thing is that you have the power to decide. Are you anti this or that, if so, some other will be anti you. See the circular energy circuit. Who are you, who do you decide to be now????? What you give out, you receive. Thoughts, words actions, always come back to their transmitter-you!!!!!!!!!!

Well said Davo.
I like that hypothesis ;)

That's some serious admin costs there, but I don't even care about the money, I'm just hoping australians haven't become that soft. I suspect things arent that bad, its just government and businesses being lazy as well.

That 200bil welfare bill should be $200bil of joy, but anyone whose had the pleasure of dealing with centrelink knows its a $200bil negative energy vortex which makes one wonder about the merits of it all.

Sypkan, you wrote "Really MD Morley? the dole was some of the best times of my life, you must have been doing it wrong."

To be honest, I had a couple of years on and off back in the bob hawke surf team days.... Share house, milk crates for furniture, scraping through, surfing heaps..... So, sypkan, if you did it, I did it, we can't really look down our noses at current youngsters wanting a year or two to enjoy youth? Don't turn into Andrew Bolt or Alan Jones, my friend....
I also think that the cost is over rated.... The Abbotts and Jones and Grimsures love class and age warfare... Judgementalism is the Amway of the new millennia....

I really wasn' being that serious about the doleys. Im happy to pay whatever it costs to maintain the dole in Australia. I believe its a integral part of our culture worth paying for. You are always going to have people who push it, but there really isnt that many, my problem is I know nearly all of these people in my area through work and aquaintances.

I am serious about governments exaggerating a situation to bring in cheap labour, And I am very serious about succesive governments from both sides turning a blind eye to the long term unemployed because it is too hard. The only person of significance who seems to care about this situation is Twiggy Forest. A capitalist miner for fucks sake. Where the hell is Labor?

Both sides are fucked.... Plain and simple.... But Abbott's side is more fucked than Bulb shortle's side.... Twiggy is a wolf in sheeps clothing..... But it's a lovely day..... Cleaning out the garage.... Fun times ;)

Both sides are fucked, but both sides have a role, a very different role, as fucked as abbott is he is fulfilling his role, the other side...well...

sypkan wrote:

Both sides are fucked, but both sides have a role, a very different role, as fucked as abbott is he is fulfilling his role, the other side...well...

We'll respectfully agree to disagree on Abbott, sypkan.... The only role he is fulfilling is a shit roll..... Sorry, bud, just how I see it.....

Oh no we agree, its a shit roll for the public, but he us filling it. And his puppet masters will be happy with the boy.

Enjoy your cleaning

"running a small business is a little more complicated than that"

But when it comes to tourism, which is a luxury, not a necessity, a fair cap on pricing generally does not exist.

For example, I lived in Townsville and Cairns many years back and both cities had a lovely little scheme going to fleece the tourists, i.e. having a two tiered pricing structure, one tier for locals, one tier for tourists. To get the local price, a document of some kind with a local home address was presented and the discount on the sticker price would be as much as 20%.

So yes, running a small tourist business can be complicated, especially when blatantly ripping off customers, yet pretending the costings are an accurate reflection of true cost.

But this 457 visa rort is nasty, I've seen plenty of average skilled workers on 457's in the mining sector get jobs over higher skilled Oz workers, and now with the new China FTA fine print, Abbott has totally sold Australia out when it comes to Chinese projects over $150 million. It's not just jobs either on these projects, it also allows the importation of building materials to fully complete these same projects. The flow on affect is insidious.

Yeah lived a life without the dole, but as one of my mates said why should I take a job off someone that wants/needs to work, that would be stressful for both of us. Another interesting one was one stint on the goldy and working in pizza huts, asked why they had a policy of employing interstate and overseas people instead of locals. The answer "the locals give away too much product to mates" couldn't argue with that one. Also have been mixed up in tourism and hospitality in Tas and trust me there is no shortage of businesses that are in the rut and don't want to be there and the last thing needed is employing staff that don't want to be there either, hence the overseas trend in remote areas.

stickyson wrote:

Yeah lived a life without the dole, but as one of my mates said why should I take a job off someone that wants/needs to work, that would be stressful for both of us.

Your mate was a wise man.

I actually saved up and bought a new board on the dole in the 90,s, was hard work never been so tight in my life but i did it, gave up beer and lived off porridge, pancakes, noodles and packet pasta and i was only getting $245.00 a fortnight and paying $50 on rent a fortnight….oh and i still surfed everyday.

The paperwork killed the dole for me, easier to get a days work.
Having said that, I am eyeing off the disability pension, with the help of a good doctor I am building a chronic disability resume.

inzider wrote:

On the other dole conversation, a good mate of mine , one of the finest surfers NZ has has ever produced has lived on the dole his whole life just surfing, the bastard has been around the world several times surfed everywhere, some people make a career out of it and live a good life. Not my cup of tea but some people just aint cut out for the mainstream.

I thought i could do that when i was younger first trip to Indo I got my friend to put in my forms, but then i got cut off, came up on there system i was out of the country and that was a long long time ago.

You missed the golden years Indo, I went overseas for months and shaun filled my forms in for me, even went to an interview for me and when I came home , no extra paperwork.

Was my last stint on the dole in the mid to late 90,s on the Goldie, most likely the start of the crack down.

I was lucky enough in the early days to be able to post my forms though, which allowed me and my X to travel the east coast for six months living out of a fully fitted out Kombie, plenty of money to go round when your living like that.

I reckon the kids would have it pretty hard these days though.