, 1343448716

Hi Victor & Quad. Apologies for taking so long to reply to you.

Victor...... The last guy I know who got it professionally done, it cost him $260 odd bucks including fins. He loves the change yet his style doesn't ask a lot from the board. I have ridden his board and for me it locks up off the bottom and top when pushed hard due to the rail design being unsuitable to the quad fin setup.

Quad...... Was there at the beginning of quads with Jack Knight and Glen Winton. Please understand this is not about quads but about changing fin set ups on McCoy's to quads.... It won't suit many, I don't think, and if everyone is up for around $260 to do it, it might be worth a think about.

Marc

, 1343454236

Quadzilla, well there you go, as I said, I haven't tried a quad McCoy and sorry I actually missed that comment first read through the thread.

Which shape is it? Got some pics?

, 1343554567

Kookster, sorry my puta wont upload photos onto these sorts of forums.i tried photo bucket and another programme and it just doesnt happen.However, my all rounder nugget was Future boxed by Chaos, cost was $100 according to the guy i bought it from.Very good job,cant fault it. 7/0x21.5x3(1/8).this board could be a one board quiver.
I'm so impressed with the performance improvement i'll be converting many of my other nuggets which include 6/4 potbelly...6/6 allrounder(big nose rocker) 6/8 allrounder .my zot is 6/8 and i'll consider converting that after i ride a friend's who had Chaos put FCS plugs in his.
I'm quite busy right now but i'm hopeful of doing the PB first when i have the spare time.It'll be the method ive outlined earlier in this thread.ANYONE with basic fibreglass skils and a holesaw and grinder can do the job themselves.MOST IMPORTANTLY, i'll be installing 3 sets of plugs so that the board can be surfed as originally designed AND as a quad.
Ive owned this 7/0 for just on 2 months now, initially i rode it as a thruster and it goes quite well,anyone who doesnt like the looseness of a quad would be extremely happy with its performance.Having an inquisitive mind i love trying different fin set ups, hence the quad arrangement.From the first bottom turn i was BLOWN away.
Now, the fins i use are very different to the standard fins.Futures 467s VECTORS are the front fins.Designed for larger surfers with different angles of attack.A very significant CANT increase over the stock standard glassed on fins.The reason i use these fins is that when i explored the Surftech nuggets i found these fins provided the maximum drive and suited my surfing.My trail fins are a F4 on my forehand side and the hatchet 425 thats standard issue with the 467s on my backhand side.So, in effect its a assymetrical fin system. ive used a similar set up in lots of quads in the past.
A frontside turn is performed on yr toes and a backside turn is on yr heels,so ive always wondered Y in this day and age, with so many interchangeable fins, that most surfers are still absolutely symmetrical.Symmetrical works but varying to suit how u want a board to feel is paramount to me.
Some people wont appreciate the differences but thats OK, horses for courses.At this stage, ive ridden waves up to head high as a thruster and Assym quad.So in 6-10ft i cant make a comment.
But, SEND em up HUEY !

, 1343618582

Hey Mark,

I think I own the board that started this thread - a modified Astron Zot, with 4 fcs fusion plugs.

I've owned 4 McCoys, 2 were customs - collected through you at Manly.

I've mostly been happy with my McCoys, which is why I keep going back. I really like his single finned boards, they suit my approach to surfing.

I really wanted to try a wide tailed quad after watching Neal Purchase Jnr on his quartets. I wanted to dip my toe into the waters and see how they go, without splashing out on a new board.

Two hundred to get the board professionally modded (120 for fins and plugs, 80 for installation), and I've still got the original set-up.

Have I made it a better board?

"Better" is so subjective. The quad McCoy that you tried Mark, that your customer was so happy with - you didn't rate it at your performance level. Your take is different than the owner.

I'll always enjoy what the Zot can deliver as a single in the right conditions. But now I've got something different as well, and whilst it's still early days, I can see the possibilities and potential for my level of surfing. Interestingly, I also have a McCoy thruster in my garage and it's never piqued my interest when I've ridden it, as much this quad set-up.

It's a shame that if I really start to like this set-up and want to get a board designed as a quad from the ground-up that I can't go to Geoff.

If you or Geoff want to contact me directly, feel free. You can get my contact details from Geoff.

Phil Morgan

, 1343653754

The single most effective thing anyone can do to their McCoy is to directionally sand the bottom and rails to get rid of that gloss - no need for that extra drag

I know that Geoff is of the mind that multi finned boards are slower, using the example of pushing the same board across still water and adding fins to each respective push of the board. The quickest is no fins, getting slower with each fin. However, this does not really reflect what happens across a wave (boards rarely travel flat across the surface, even when going 'straight')and does not take into account other variables such as fin shape, surface area, cant, toe etc.

A while back I had a little McCoy single and a Richie Pavel Speed Dialer quad around the same size. The difference in natural trim speed and drive was remarkable - the Pavel being significantly faster and more responsive to rider input, whether overhead and barrelling or waist high and mushy.

It's a shame that Geoff discredits the quads. One thing I've learned as I've got older is that you can always learn some more

, 1343681111

It's also somewhat condescending to suggest that the majority of surfers are not aware that each design aspect of a board works alongside the others as a whole.

The Jobson Twinzer set up could also work well with those wide convex bottomed round tails. Highly unlikely to get one from Geoff though!

, 1343683654

Hi Frankenzot,

There is little doubting that when pushed the Zot converted to 4 fin will lock up 'cause the rail's designed to work like a fin on those Zots, so it will do what its designed to do, which is hold. But mate I would change that thruster over to quad if it's not setting you off as a thruster for a truer quad ride than what you will get on a Zot conversion. And yeah, I do agree it would be great to go into those areas with Geoff.

I note Quadzilla has converted a big guy nugget. Again that rail is much more suitable to a conversion.

Fact with surfboard design is most of us don't surf well enough to really test out the complexities of the surfboard design we are riding that the great shapers give us. So as it mostly does, it comes down to what feels good to our own individual read on a wave. And that's where those experienced guys in the surfboard Industry do their best to match boards, fins and shapers to the surfing public. So therefore this thread.

And also let's not forget the many positions guys place the fins RE: quads. Truth is it's a complex world this surfboard design business. My personal take is if you've found something you love, surf it.

Obviously skill and experience will be playing the greatest factor on who can go where on what. Higher skills will place greater demands on design factors. Like I mentioned a little earlier, when pushed the conversion I rode locked up. Therefore in design terms, the degree may vary, but what happened to one will happen to another, all those Zot conversions will lock up, so I say to all you McCoy owners thinking of spending your hard earned: It's not really what the boards designed for.

Cheers,
Marc

, 1345067212

i know of 4 different Azots that have been modified because the owners thought they could get more performance.the first one was set up as a thruster(fcs plugs) with the box fin overhanging the end of the box, meaning the base of the fin has a cut out.his report is that its much better in small weak waves but he reverts to the single in powerful waves.the 2nd guy had future boxes installed and used 4.25 side fins with a 6 inch centrefin.he was amazed at the"completely different" sensation he got.the 3rd guy, has Cheynes stafin in the box with FCS longboard sidebites(gl/gx size).a much better board for him,was his comment.
Frankenzot is the 4th and most interesting because ive ridden FZ as a zot(standard gullfin),and my Zot is the exact same dimensions bar being 1/4inch wider.Fzot will be tested with ALL the first 3 configurations when QZ and FZ have a swap,but also with many other set ups due to the amount of FCS variety available to us.
Currently, my quad nugget has the futures hatchets as the trail (quad)fins...providing a super loose sensation but substantially less drive than with the F4trailer(asymmetrical set up).its ideal for the weakest of swells.
QUAD up and FLY!

, 1345112407

Hey QZ, do you make any other mods at all? E.g. Sand the edges/rails to work with the new fin setups?

, 1345151420

gidday M,ive been thinking about your comment about wetrubbing the gloss & thats going to happen.Probably half of my mCoys have been glossed & i think that the matt finish does provide a slicker ride.Yesterday i jumped on my 6/8 thruster nugget(wetrubbed)and it is a slightly different sensation.i was thinking of 400 or 800,whats your opinion?

, 1345187129

400 will do the job.

Let us know the results

, 1345546219

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-McCoy-surfboard-sailboard-converted-great-display-RETRO-LOOK-/190715810199?pt=AU_Sport_Surfing&hash=item2c678c5197

hey, Mccoys versatility shows thru here

, 1345614190

this week marks the launch of 3Dfins, a new direction in fin shape.look them up on facebook or twitter.Last year i saw the test pilots taking apart some great 4-6ft long lined up point break waves. so much extra speed from a standard thruster shape, cant imagine how they'd affect a flextail.they may even make a nugget go FAST !

, 1345673467

Im afraid there is nothing mystical about a rolled bottom. They push water and take your surfing to a plateau that sits a little below the intermediate level. As Victor said early on.. do you see anyone ripping on one? The number of people I have had come through and ask what can you do to improve the way this nugget surfs? The answer is..Don't surf it, as this seems to produce the greatest improvement in a nugget owners surfing experience.

, 1345688331

Cheyne Horan won the 1999 world masters riding a McCoy nugget. It might be the masters, but I'd still suggest he'd be riding at a level above intermediate and against stiff competition.

McCoys - it seems you either love 'em or hate 'em. But I reckon they DO work and shouldn't be dismissed as a Mini Mal alternative.

It's a shame he won't apply his knowledge to some current tech, different fin configs, etc.

, 1345739402

Hard to get any decent footage of Cheyne surfing in that comp....

I think it was at Lacanau or Biarritz and he was riding a 6ft trifin Nugget

, 1345739705

Anyone know this bloke? He seems to make a good fist of surfing his McCoys

http://lyttlestreet.wordpress.com/?s=mccoy

, 1345765715

Shane Herring on a McCoy nugget circa 98/99





Cheyne. Lennox Head.

, 1345767575

don't fucken tell me freeride is back.

, 1345841441

Damn, there's photos of 3 guys ripping on nuggets. I guess that outweighs the number of guys ripping on thrusters, mals, boogies and goatboats.

, 1345845599

"Damn, there's photos of 3 guys ripping on nuggets. I guess that outweighs the number of guys ripping on.. goatboats."

Well, actually...

, 1345848502

No offence to your theory Mr Dobbie but in my 35 years surfing that carving top turn done by Herro on a 6'0" nugget remains the finest example of perfect surfing I've ever witnessed. Look at it. The form, the power, the speed, the style. It's flawless.

In a very real sense it was the last great flowering of a genius talent before it was consumed by the demons.

I feel privileged to have witnessed the union of that great talent with a magic surfboard.

Personally I enjoyed the McCoy period just prior to the nugget when he was making these fuller dimensioned shortboards during the heyday of the anorexic potato chip. They went unreal.

as you were.

, 1346064667

Hey freeride, where did you get those photos from? Do you have any video footage? Herro was unbelievable.... It would be a fine day to see him back, healthy and ripping again.

It would be good to see some close-up pics of Herro and Horan's boards. I know that Cheyne liked a hard edge quite far up on his small-wave boards, but you would have a hard job convincing Geoff to do that for the regular punter, I reckon.

, 1346106246

There are over three thousand who have checked this thread out now and I felt there are points made by some that should be addressed for those looking at this thread for facts and information.

There are very few people who have dedicated their entire working life to the gathering of knowledge in surfboard design and surfing technique .... Geoff McCoy is one of them. This is simply because surfing is so young. Really surfing is only one lifetime old .... Think about that, we've only been gathering knowledge in this area for one lifetimes worth. Not long in the scheme of things.

So how many out there of you have given everyone of your days to surfboard design and the study of surfing technique? Yet there's many who claim true knowledge?

It's true that many try Geoff's current designs and find fault with them ... as what happens with every surfboard design. So why do some of you go so hard to discredit Geoff when you don't even understand what he is doing.

Does anyone rip on a McCoy? Anyone asking such a question does not know surfing no matter what they tell themselves. There are great surfers all over the world riding Geoff's designs that prove his boards work great .... One of our Aussie champs is one of them.

I think it was Shakespeare who said "men fear what they don't understand ": and here's where all negativity arises.

If you don't understand something, how can you begin to appreciate what it is, what its capabilities are? How can you go about utilizing its design factors? How do you come to understand how it should be surfed?

Let's examine ourselves: How many surfers dedicate everyday to surfing, surfboard design, understanding surfing technique and the physics behind both? Not many. Most everyone just goes surfing and doesn't know how they make a board turn, whether they are a back foot or a front foot surfer and who knows and understands the relative techniques that are applied to get a surfboard to turn?
And without knowing such things about ourselves as surfers we go out to buy a surfboard listening often to sales guys who really know no more than the guy trying to buy the right board from him. It's a recipe for disaster and often is.

Geoff's Nugget designs are primarily for backfoot surfing and if you don't surf them off the backfoot your going to be in all sorts of bother trying to ride them. But put them under someone who is naturally a backfoot surfer or someone who understands that they are backfoot surfboards and can make the suitable adjustments in their surfing technique and you will find no problems. Hence those loving and disliking the nugget design.

Now, the surfboard is not designed with a roll bottom as it has been suggested. Again the human art of not knowing but willing to pass comment is practiced in such statements. Geoff has come up, through all his years of designing, with the most complex bottom design ever put on a surfboard and in my personal experience the best. He calls it the Loaded Dome and it is as far removed from a roll bottom as Pluto is from the sun. Never in the near twenty years of the Loaded Dome development have I ever experienced it pushing water. In fact the opposite, it glides over water, as its designed to do.

There are many guys out there shaping and selling surfboards and claiming knowledge, myself included, but the only shaper I know truly possessing a full range of knowledge about what they are creating and why, is Geoff McCoy. I recommend that if anyone on this thread wants to know about McCoy surfboards you go to the source and give the man himself a call. He knows more about his designs than those making some of the comments on this thread, wouldn't you reckon.

By the way, Geoff doesn't just design backfoot surfboards. Though I often ride and appreciate his Nugget designs, I am naturally a front foot surfer so often prefer to ride his front foot designs when riding his boards ... which I often choose to do simply because they are a unique expression in surfing.


M.

, 1346122337

http://createsend.randb.com.au/t/ViewEmailArchive/r/864A99CB3CC99173/C67FD2F38AC4859C/

, 1346122628

ok, i'm not sure that the previous link will get to the interview with GM.

So, www.switch-foot.com

then clik newsletters

then scroll down to august, and amonst the subject matter is an interview about objects idiots and fools...lol....

, 1346131376

What year did Geoff McCoy start designing and selling thrusters?

It's a serious question - we know that Simon credits Geoff with the inspiration for the planshape of the first thruster, and we all know that Geoff saw it as inferior to the single fin design.

..and what led Geoff to start producing thrusters? In Geoffs experience an inferior product which didn't best suit his designs? Was it market pressure?

, 1346138431

Hi Marc,

I don't think anyone would accuse Geoff of not being a free thinker or dedicating his career to designing better boards to surf.

But this fact is not mutually exclusive to anyone else having an understanding of how the boards under their feet are working for them. Personally, I would definitely say that I have dedicated much of my life in the same line of thinking, occasionally when I should have been thinking of much more important things, it has to be said!

Geoff is indeed an interesting and humble bloke to speak to, but I think a few of us may just wish that, every now and again, he would entertain the odd idea coming from the punter and incorporate his knowledge into that idea; the quad experiments by some riders are just an example of this.

On the other hand, I can understand his reticence; you would have a hard job commisioning a portrait artist to paint a landscape, for example.

Plenty of folk love their McCoys, which is great. I think I would certainly try another myself when the time comes.

There's also plenty of shapers around these days who will listen to their customers, trust their judgement and make a true custom board for them. This is good, too. It's not a bad time to be a surfer, wherever in the world you live.

, 1346139667

Interesting questions Morgan.

As I said earlier I've been working on and off with McCoy since 1971 with his then side man Peter Lawrence and it was then I was given my first McCoy three fin design. But back then it was a very different board to what Simon came up with. I can't remember why it all got put on the back burner, but it did. I had that board for ages so I must have liked it. But I do remember sanding the side fins out at some stage and going back to the single. Again I can't remember why.

Geoff never has been against multi fins, remembering he was once called the twin fin king and you can bet your life someone somewhere stuck a back fin in behind those twin fins. But in terms of Thrusters he was making them from the get go, though his personal preference leans always toward single fins for that feeling that only a single can give to riding a wave.

M.

, 1346141773

Hi Moore

With what Geoff is doing now it is almost impossible for him to create a custom as your suggesting as with his designs he is designing for complete neutrality from his boards. So any suggestion that compromises this effect of neutrality he has to dismiss to keep moving toward to the goal. When Geoff says things like it doesn't work, what he is really saying is 'it compromises the purpose of my designs'.

Bottom line with old man McCoy is he is pursuing an ideal that his life has taken him to. I've often said to him he has painted himself into a marketing corner, but when it comes to surfing he is totally focus on his energy theory which calls for this neutrality in surfboard design that he strives for.

This past year I have been off working on designs with Rob Fenech and having a great time exploring other areas, but this week I've got two new McCoy's coming and am frothing like a grommet.

Cheers
M.

, 1346148781

Fair do's, Marc.

You certainly can't knock McCoy for not being passionate about what he does or for not sticking to his guns.

, 1346151577

talking about GUNS, the Waimea and Maverick regulars are using quad set ups, i suppose they havent heard that the gullfins are faster!

, 1346155830

True, but to be fair, plenty of folks love singlefin guns as well

, 1346160390

Yes, but very few are using the gullfins.Ive owned 4 mCoy guns...2 singles and 2 thrusters, still own a 95model single but its got FCS plugs and it goes so much better as a 3fin.As a 2+1 it goes better than a straight single.Possibly his single guns may have improved but i wont be ordering a single ever.Even more possibly my 95 model will acquire a trailing set of plugs.Its an excellent board with the fins that suit me,once again horses for courses.

, 1346195011

Marc.
A few questions.
What design changes does McCoy apply when making a board for a front footed surfer.

About Cheyne Horans style.
How would you describe his swingweight style, is he 70% back footed/30% front footed,60% back footed /40% front footed or 50% front footed/ 50% back footed.
I would be interested to hear others views as well, also how each person defines their own swing weight style.

Noticed the Town and Country boards that Rob Fenech is making have a similar outline to nuggets, is he shaping them with dome bottoms?

Cheers
Philos

, 1346198076

Loaded roll bottoms should be produced in North Korea. No custom, 1 option, don't ask why, you could never understand the complexity, but it doesn't work for me, shhhhhh. This cosmic propaganda is hilarious...

, 1346201500

Hey dobbie keep posting, you're making me look intelligent.

, 1346207401

hey darren, theres no need for the LR bottoms to be produced in N korea because they are already being produced in Thailand at the Cobra factory.No customs and yes only 1 fin option(thruster).An extremely complex moulding system.Hilarious CP is just normal Byron talk, its just a throwback to the hippy days!

, 1346223324

Hi Philos,

Give Geoff a call re diff between his back and front foot designs, but basically its placement of area in plan shape and foil.

Re Cheyne, the guy could surf off either foot. But his surfing on zaps and nuggets was full on back foot short arc surfing.

Re Rob Fenech from T&C, he's into many things including Geoff's trip with domes. He's made me a couple of outstanding boards this year. Track him down, he's good value.

Cheers
M.

, 1346231788

Marc, you seem to have a wealth of experience on McCoys and you obviously have a good dialogue going on with Geoff. I would be interested to hear about you, your favourite boards and what conditions you like to ride them in. Do you ask for a few tweaks here and there?

, 1346281763

At your service Mr Atkinson ;-)

, 1346321229

I've never ridden a McCoy (any model) but there's a 'Tri-Zap' for sale in the local surf shop. It's at a nice price. The only issue ive got is that it's a touch too thick. Speaking to a friend he says they're supposed to be ridden that way. It's pretty shot (5'9) so may not matter but it's thicker than any board Ive ridden.

Anyone got any thoughts? Should I just get it?

, 1346321975

[i]They're not massive, they're the right thickness![/i] (paraphrasing Geoff!)

What thickness is it, just out of interest?

, 1346323418

They're not massive, they're the right thickness!

So I've heard! It's only 2 1/2 thick but the real difference is there's no roll in the deck, it's got thick rails and what feels like a completely flat deck. The thickness also extends up toward the nose more than I'm used to. Thinking I might just buy it.

, 1346495974

Go for it. If it's a good price, it would be unlikely that you would lose much if you didn't like it and wanted to sell it on.

, 1346550835

Hi Moore

Where were we? Won't say much about myself other than I've been around some. But on surfboards and surfing we could talk the night away over a meal and a good wine anytime you're on Manly beach.

Re Geoff's designs, I surf them all.... some better than others, ha! But in all of them I find attributes that amaze and put a smile on my dial and make me want to go surf some more. They are unique in design so surf differently to other boards I ride. To me its not a matter of saying McCoy is better, more the fact that they are unique. But if I were Captain Jack Sparrow and dumped on a Caribbean Island, I say forget the rum and leave me the McCoy and know I had a board to cover a wide range of surf conditions. Especially when its barreling!

When getting Geoff to design a board, I have found over the years, its best to describe accurately how you are currently approaching your surfing and how you want the board to surf. eg. The boards I'm getting this week, I explained to Geoff where I was heading with my surfing and that I wanted to 'carve' off the front foot off the bottom and snap off the back in the pocket. Now Geoff will take that information, digest it, then make subtle changes to the model/models from his range we choose to work with. Over the years I've found that brings a better result from Geoff rather than leaving it all up to him or attempting to suggest what and where he should make adjustments. He understands surfing, and if he can get a clear picture in his head of how you want to surf, that's when he does his best work.

I mentioned in reply to you before that Geoff wasn't into shaping customs as you were suggesting, but in the above sense he is truly a custom shaper. He will adjust his design to suit your dreams if you can convey the right message. It's all about communication with your shaper and as I'm sure you know, sometimes it takes three or so boards to get it right, correct and honest communication of ones surfing being the key.

Have I had McCoy dogs? You bet. There's so many factors that come into board building, such as blanks, glassing, sanding etc through to a bad day in the office for the shaper. But some of the dogs I've thrown on the beach, only to have a mate go out and rip on the board and claim it for himself. ????????

Now ain't that surfing and surfboards. Ha!

M.

, 1346550897

Also...the Gullwing fin.

Amazing design but so different in the way it works, unless understood and utilised, you will come away scratching your head.
The purpose of the fin is to create a design that pivots an arc as tight, if not tighter, than a thruster for todays style of attack on a wave.

The gullwing works in reverse to the physics of the Greenough inspired fins we generally surf. The gullwing pivots from the base and drives from the forward knuckle to the tip. Totally reverse of a normal fin which drives from the base and pivots from the throat to the tip. So therefore that can take some getting used to. It's a really different feel underfoot and unfortunately not real comfy when jumping around from board to board....

Uninformed comments will give you guys who are really interested in this thread and Geoff McCoy designs, warped impressions of what Geoff is doing. So let 'em slide by.

Track down footage of Al the dentist @ Lennox Head to get a true dose of how cool they can work.

M.

, 1346552109

I've got some good footy of Al (dental technician) McDirmid getting barrelled on his McCoy single-o's.

, 1346584864

Would you mind posting it up please freeride?

, 1346584978

Marc - thanks for the info, that's good stuff to know.

Also, cheers for the invite. I live in Europe, but hope to get over to Oz again in the next few years!

, 1346635798

I'd love to see that vid of Al McDirmid too freeride (If he's okay with you sharing it)

, 1346644947

Cheers Moore, here's a gift for ya.

When your designing think of this.....

Firstly think in terms of object (surfboard) and energy source (wave).

Lets say you take an object with flats and straights the size of a football and supply energy to it by kicking it.... how far and fast do you reckon it will travel without having to to be kicked again? And with what sort of control?

Now replace that object with a ball - balls being all about curves and softness - and consider how fast and far that will travel before it needs to be kicked again. And again, with what sort of control?

How will those curves the ball contains react to the environment its moving through?

Right now your creating boards with straights and hardness as their main theme. Nothing overtly wrong with that, but they do give you only a one dimensional result...and you do have to keep constantly kicking the object as there's resistance to continual flow. Again nothing wrong with that if you only want to surf in that dimension. And its possible most of today's surfers only know of one dimension. But there's a whole world of surfing out there to be explored. And the only way you can get to it is through alternative surfboard designing.

Old man McCoy has headed off in a different direction using the physics of the softness in curves to create neutrality in surfboard design. The result being a different board with different dimensions in character. And an outcome of this is you don't have to work hard to get the board to flow from turn to turn. That's what the Nugget design is all about. And old man McCoy is only at the tip of the iceberg.

Give it a go, see what you can find and report back to the Swellnet forum.

Have fun.
M.

, 1346651420

I'll get to that vid eventually. Got to track it down, digitise it and upload.
It'll happen, but not today.

The shots of Herro and Cheyne are frame grabs of video.

, 1346752449

Interesting analogy, Marc. Much of it makes sense.

So... what about the ball and the javelin, both weighing the same and both having the same energy pushing it forward? The javelin will have the least resistance when compared to the ball and will go further, despite having a long straight edge (which is itself curved across another dimension, but that's another story...)

What about the ball with a shiny surface vs. the exact same ball with a dimpled surface - effectively multiple edges over a curved surface? The dimpled one (like a golf ball) will be faster as the airflow, in crude terms, is broken up and has both less resistance and less drag.

Just being Devil's Advocate here.....!

, 1346754726

yes Moore u hit the jackpot there, a smooth golfball(object)was them modified(quadfins)and found to go much faster through the water.

, 1346755862

Bought the Tri-Zap on the weekend! Only had it in small surf so cant tell how it goes yet but it feels good. Paddles like a demon too. I got bailed up in the carpark by a guy who said it'd be about 25 years old. Thats older than me!

, 1346758365

well Dewy, it could be a little more. i was in the water one day and 3 visitors paddled out, all on triZaps.They ripped.the boards worked unreal for them & pretty sure it was 82or83.

, 1346759284

...and what about that other source of energy - the surfer?

Our inputs are translated by the object to direct it in conjunction with the 'other' energy source - the wave.

For me, Neutrality's good in solid surf but a board with some quirkiness/'personality' is better in smaller surf.

For the above reason, I think I would shy away from a Zot (unless I picked a used one up) but I am pretty keen to try a Zap at some point.

, 1346762215

YES, spot on....small weak waves need minimal drag....thats y MR dominated on a twin fin when the tour was held at some pretty crappy surf spots.Quads are really only a twin with side stabilisers, whereas a thruster uses the stringer fin to stabilise the board.the centre fin is a drag in weak waves but in grunty waves it suits some people quite well.MF and Parko both rode quads in the final in Tahiti.obviously ke11ys Fiji victory on a quad+nubster has influenced the current top 2 world tour surfers.if quads can work on those anoerexic objects, why cant they work on THE object?

, 1346794387

@Quadzilla,

"Quads are really only a twin with side stabilisers,"

That sounds more like a Twinzer to me, or perhaps the Glen Winton style quads of the late-80s. Modern quads in the Bourton or McKee mould (i.e the ones that work) are more like a thruster with the rear fin split in two.

, 1346797110

Hi Moore,

All for fun .... Yeah, but a javelin can't be swerved through the environment its passing through, etc. A ball, being full of soft curves, can be easily turned ... as in those amazing goals, both soccer and footy. Point is in this world of physics, soft curves turn easily and naturally. That fact is not mine nor Geoff McCoy's invention... If Quadzilla or anyone else wants to dispute it, they'll have to take it upstairs way above me

I've had good success with using the formula of balanced and soft curves. As I said earlier, try it, play with it, and see how you go.
As for surface finishes on surfboards and which is faster etc, it's been my experience there's so little in it thats truly relevant to us surfers. Design in rocker and plan shape are much more important and will play the major factor in the natural speed of a surfboard. And yeah, of course the surfer plays an important role in speed too, being another energy source.

Geoff always uses gloss finishes and they fly.

Which brings us to the problem of the tail cavitation and McCoy's spinning out.... a common concern and problem front foot surfers experience when riding back foot design McCoy's such as Nuggets and Zaps.

Speed makes the board lift, like a hydro foil does when reaching certain speeds. McCoy design bottom shapes and full foils, cause the board to ride on top of the water flow, Geoff's boards are unique in this factor, therefore if you've no weight over that tail it lifts right out of the water and you spin out. Been there done that. Weight the back leg, set the board down on the water and you'll fly out of the turn with more speed than you've ever had before because the back end isn't dragging through the water.

This has been my experience. But if you can't adapt your surfing style to back foot surfing you experience frustration, spinning out, pushing water etc and though you instinctively will feel there's something good in the board you won't connect with it and it ends up on eBay.

Now here's a point that Geoff and I see differently. I see no value in such a concentration on back foot surfing, but he does cause its his trip, maybe even his invention! Back foot surfing is not my trip though I can adapt. Zots, Zaps, Nuggets, are back foot designs and I like surfing them but if your not sure about your surfing style then seek qualified advice from Geoff would be my advice. Other than that, choose another of his designs.

Guys these boards work. Check the shots, check the weight on the back foot in the bottom turn.

Cheers and thx for the fun in this thread.
M.

, 1346797324

Hmmm Q ... So using your drag quotes re small waves which would create less drag: A set up which had four fins toed in and splayed out creating turbulence, or a single fin placed upright on the stringer with therefore no toe in and no splay and next to no turbulence ????

Come on Mr Quad be careful where you go.....

The creation of drag then the releasing of drag is how multi fins work. It's that releasing factor that gives the thrust and the sense of speed. The more drag you create, the greater the thrust and the sense of speed when the release comes.

It's all good quad, you can love your four fins but please ....Fanning's and Parko's boards were designed as four fins, your McCoy wasn't and is an adaption. If you like it and it works for you, all the best to you, but no matter what you say the fact remains your board was not designed to be a four fin and when pushed by a good surfer will have its issues.

Cheers
M.

, 1346801177

The creation of drag then the releasing of drag is how multi fins work. It's that releasing factor that gives the thrust and the sense of speed. The more drag you create, the greater the thrust and the sense of speed when the release comes.

By: "marc atkinson"

, 1346825180

Ha ha...Hey morg, you saying that maybe I should have stayed at school instead of wagging to go surfing.

Cheers
M.

, 1346828126

Boom-tish! I think you've done alright Marc.

, 1346829283

Wow, we appear to actually be talking about how surfboards work on a surfboard design forum! This is all good stuff...

The singles will, at different points, undoubtedly have less drag than a thruster or quad i.e. When the angle of attack means that it is running through the water when the water flow is running straight from the nose of the board through to the tail - paddling, for instance..

However, it will dragging to different degrees once the AOA changes...

Look at those pics above (which are pretty awesome, by the way) and you will see that even though the surfer is going 'straight' the water is moving across the board at a diagonal (check the nice smooth sheet of water leaving the board behind his left heel). This means that some kind of drag, admittedly far less than a thruster (if he is on a single), is happening as the fin is effectively moving through the sea sideways.

Quads appear to negate some of this drag as they are toed and canted in conjunction with the rail that is engaged at any one time, either while turning or 'going straight' (no such thing IMO), but when the AOA is flat, like when paddling, there will be drag.

This does not take into account fin size, shape, rail shape, or any other crucial aspect that needs to be considered!

Geoff is right when he talks about the design working with the fins as a whole, no prob there.

, 1346842356

Geez Moore, you're making me blush...

The boards a 6'8 x 20 1/4 x 2 7/8 McCoy Nugget semi gun thruster. It's Manly beach.... the same bank that hosted the '78 Surfabout final with Wayne Lynch & Larry Blair.

Enlarge as big as you can and check again what's going on with water flow. Interesting stuff for design junkies.

Personally I can't say enough good things about McCoy's dome.
Cheers
M.

, 1346842842

@Moore,

Considering this paragraph of yours: "Look at those pics and you will see that even though the surfer is going 'straight' the water is moving across the board at a diagonal. This means that some kind of drag, admittedly far less than a thruster (if he is on a single), is happening as the fin is effectively moving through the sea sideways."

Although it may be slightly off topic check the latest Bonzer review/rave thing on Swellnet and how that design harnesses angular water flow.

Also may be worth your while chasing down Maurice Cole and his 'Tales From the Chookshed' vid where he talks about water moving across the bottom of the board diagonally. It's led him toward the ultra deep concaves that he now shapes for Ross Clarke-Jones and co.

, 1346855915

Yes, I've spotted the MC vids and spent a fair bit of time looking at his designs.. At first they appear to be the antithesis of McCoy's designs - big concave, lots of edge, lower volume. But they do share a common element - a relatively straight rocker along the stringer line, particularly through the tail.

Pretty cool to consider that both types of design work well and a variety of conditions, I reckon... More than one way to skin a rabbit eh?

, 1346856094

Marc - that's you? Nice shots! Looking at the pic a bit closer - maybe you're on a tri fin?

BTW - have sent you a private message, check your inbox please!

, 1346876117

...

It's all good quad, you can love your four fins but please ....Fanning's and Parko's boards were designed as four fins, your McCoy wasn't and is an adaption. If you like it and it works for you, all the best to you, but no matter what you say the fact remains your board was not designed to be a four fin and when pushed by a good surfer will have its issues.
...

By: "marc atkinson"

, 1346879044

Hi guys Dr Con Tentious here,

Water doesn't move across the bottom of the surfboard.... It's all Maya, an illusion .... It's not what it seems to be. The surfboard moves across the water. In fact, better said, it's slicing it.

There's a world of difference and old man McCoy's onto it.

Oops, I fear I've just put my head on a chopping block..... run rabbit run......

, 1346882045

No, not at all! That makes sense...

It's good to have these kind of discussions without the usual [i]'well - so and so won a WCT on it so it must work'[/i] offhand comments that appear so often on design forums with no effort to actually delve deeper to suss out what the hell is going on!

Geoff's followed his own nose and for this fact alone I am intrigued by his theories... Even though I might not agree with them all at the moment (I agree with most, though) I will quite enjoy being convinced otherwise!

, 1346906234

I am guilty of toying with two nuggets.One I quadded up the other (a zot) I added trailer (thruster) boxes.They made the boards perform differently but with mixed results.I blame the surf where I live (South Coast SA,lots of mush). The neutrality and full rail single works beautifully when there is some steepness but our waves are long and slopey.
I added the fins to increase resistance and get a little squirt from the fin and wide tail combination.Geoff's boards (it seems to me) are designed for smooth,rail to rail transition surfing at the speed of the wave AND in the pocket.The boards don't have the twitchiness of 'performance' boards which baffles many surfers who try McCoys and say they feel slow or dead.I just love the feel of them under my feet and the paddling power they offer.After maybe 12 years of surfing around 12 nuggets (all sub 6ft) I can't see myself riding anything else apart from the odd novelty surf on Simmons inspired craft.I have a 5'2'' that I bought 2nd hand for my son long ago which is still the best board I've ever had.

, 1346907869

I still havent had my 'Tri-Zap' in any decent waves yet. Its been a special kind of torture reading you guys talking about Mccoys while not being able to ride mine. Im just going to drive this weekend till i find something good.

, 1346911613

for what it's worth...surfing nearly 50yrs,best bd ever was a mcCOY geoff made me in 87,double ender i called the 'baked bean'wp bout centre ,flattish tail,15"wide,loaded dome(someone said it's like surfing on ball bearings)single fin that worked unreal with a starfin in 2-8'.Magic bd i bought & sold 3 or 4 times(Hollywood loved it,so did AA even Barton rated it)finally got it back & now it rests in the roof.A Classic (like those fotos of you marc)

, 1346925907

Garry-weed, can you fill us in on your experiences on the nugget you changed to a QUAD please?like what fins u have played with and what sort of waves you have used it in?my quad nugget is the best feeling ive had from a mCoy over the last 16years of riding them, so i'm interested to hear what another longterm enthusiast thinks about them.whats also quite important to know is the placement of the fins and if u still use that board as a thruster as well considering your modified Zot is a thruster?what size is the Zot and the Quad too?

, 1347227538

Slightly off topic but a good read:

http://www.boardcollector.com/2012/09/riding-waimea-on-5-8-mc-coy-lazor-zap.html?m=1

, 1347270414

So Geoff McCoy rings me again and says, "I don't know what's going on, I'm swamped with orders". Ha, he knew nothing about this thread.

He reckons he's going to have to shape weekends to keep up. Ha ha again.

To all you guys ordering boards from Geoff, enjoy the ride.

Cheers & over & out.
M.

, 1347349161

And guys, get a centre box for the stringer fin which makes it a lot easier to add plugs for the quad experience.designs to FREE your surfing!

, 1347353444

So Marc,

You've just been in contact with Geoff McCoy and he's tripped out to discover guys are playing around with his designs by changing the fin configuration to four fins etc.

In fact his orders have gone through the roof!

Seems this quad thing is working out well for old man McCoy ;). He should take it further.

, 1347428381

Sept 6th, MA wrote "Fanning's and Parko's boards were designed as four fins"

FOUR fins, NO.....WRONG...incorrect

Now i havent seen Parkos board so i wont comment on his,HOWEVER!

I have seen Mick's and its designed as a MULTI FIN, ie a board designed to surf as a THRUSTER or fourfin with nubster stabiliser in the centre plugs or as a stand alone QUAD!

PLEASE PLEASE Mr Marc...get your facts correct before you post !

Mick's board is a Ducksguts roundedpin model that hes been testing and will be available soon.At present only the Ducksguts rounded squaretail is available.

, 1347582239

From the man himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-5AhAnX200&feature=plcp

, 1347586883

Seems this quad thing is working out well for old man McCoy ;). He should take it further.

By: "morgan_the_moon"

, 1347679464

Quadzilla, you've just proved a point as to why not to stuff around with Geoff's designs. Regardless of whether Marc said Parko and Mick's boards were designed for four fins or five fins doesn't really matter, they were shaped to work that way - Geoff's boards aren't made to work as quads. They are singles or thrusters. The end. They don't have multiple set-ups. And to make matters worse, the ol five fin set-up is a myth and a marketing device. Some boards work as quads, others as thrusters, rarely as both for mere mortals.

, 1347839892

bman,
Please have a close look at the Utube footage that GM has posted, he refers to his designs as singlefins and MULTIfins.

Any board designed as a multi fin will work with 2 or 3 or 4 fins(if they are placed in the correct positions)and as Ke11y proved to the world in the Fiji final 5 fins!

ive experimented with 12 different mcoys,all have proved better than the standard issue.

my 7/0 is the first with the option of comparing a thruster with a quad, so after a month of riding it as a thruster(150ish waves) i set it up as a quad(almost 4 months now & probably 500ish waves)My estimate is its at least 10% faster than a thruster(which are miles ahead of any mcoy single) and it makes sections that my singles dont and my thrusters might.

all my comments are from direct practical experience, How many waves have you surfed with a quad Mccoy?

, 1347847119

Hi Morg,

Yeah I understand and have discussed it at length with Geoff. However, from Geoff's point, he has discovered something unique in the relationship between object (surfboard) and energy (wave) and wants only to pursue that line religiously. Doing so he wipes out a lot of areas others would like to dabble in. They are areas he doesn't have interest in and lucky enough for him, because of who he is in surfing, he has enough interest from surfers to continually put food on his table.

I reckon if most anyone else making boards tried it they would probably go hungry a few nights of the week.

Is he right to follow that principle to tightly? Who's to say really, but let's see what father time says about Geoff McCoy in the years, decades and centuries to come. And remember, every board designed for accessing the full face of a wave, owes its origins to Geoff McCoy. That's why Simon defers the designing inspiration behind his thruster to Geoff.

Once upon a time some guy had the idea the earth wasn't flat...
He pursued that idea and here we are today because he did....
But for now some of us are left wishing he would take us somewhere else ..... at times, and as a friend of his, me included.

Cheers
M

, 1347852637

http://www.griffinsurfboards.com/modfish-reviews.html

just a Myth?

http://www.griffinsurfboards.com/fish-reviews.html

or pehaps very REAL!

http://www.griffinsurfboards.com/5finshort-reviews.html

, 1347862070

http://www.griffinsurfboards.com/

bman, i suggest you read the riders reviews of modfish,4-5fin fish and 5fin shortboard

also some interesting stuff by the people who follow the BONZA trail, they have evolved to 5 fins

, 1347862701

www.bonzer5.com

anyone who wants to look at taylor knox on a 5 fin ?

, 1347865208

that surfing by taylor knox was fucking brilliant......can the knockers please point out where 5 fins create to much drag....will someone bonzer a mccoy ? soon.

, 1347927422

http://bonzer5.com/boards/bonzer-mechanics/

OH, these guys have been refining this design since late 60s...originally as 3 thats now climbed to 5.

just look at the minimal drag theory!

, 1347931698

anyone for GOLF balls?

http://3dfins.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=124

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvVuuaqCC7A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

, 1347935211

...let's see what father time says about Geoff McCoy in the years, decades and centuries to come.

By: "marc atkinson"

, 1347950845

Wetted surface area, fin shape and angle of attack. All of these aspects don't seem to feature in Geoff's argument for some reason...

A dozen half inch fins will have less drag than a single 12in fin, all other design aspects equal.

Let's pretend, for argument's sake, that we are using the same size and shape fin: While there's little doubt that 4 x 4in fins will have more drag on a board pushed flat across a pool of water that the same board with 3 x 4in fins, but this is not a true reflection of what a well designed quad does.

As I mentioned a couple of pages back, I don't believe any board really is ever running flat across the water when up and on a wave. Paddling, maybe, but when surfing, no it's not.

, 1347954723

YES, Moore you are correct

Using a flat water example to illustrate an object operating in constantly changing curved water is NONsense

the object is constantly having the weight distrubution changed, as well as accelerating and decelerating with the direction changes.even with paddling it would have to be DEAD STRAIGHT and with other waveriders constantly around, then it complicates the situation.

On the wave, the AOA constantly changes....the upright single becomes canted and toed, which according to GM cant(splay) and toe cause drag.and they do!

when a surfers weight is transfered to the inside rail during a turn the multifins cant and toe become upright and straight(side fin) at a certain point and the MF accelerates.if its a thruster then the stringer fin drags and if the MF has 2 side fins, theres a lot less drag and consequently more speed.

this is why 2 fins on the rail is FASTER

this isnt a theory by the way, just a practicle observation

, 1348010789

Hi Moore,

Did you get the board? Look deeper into that thought you just expressed and let us not get sucked into Quad's capital letter inspired ignorance. Fins running deep in the water will build points of pressure and points of release...this we understand. While under pressure we call it drag, when not under pressure we call it release. Moment after moment this is occurring. All the ride the board and fins are in constant transition. In those modes of transition, which fin setup would offer the least resistance to going forward?

That is the point of Geoff's description. It's only a description to assist an inquiry.

So let's not get caught up in that description.

The origins of this thread were Geoff saying his boards were not designed as four fins and won't work as a four fin, specially the Zot. And they dont, as anyone who has the skill to push them hard off the bottom and into the pocket will note. Fact is they hold and won't break their line when asked. So it fucks up your timing through your turns. But if your just running lines you won't notice these issues.
If you've put four fins in a McCoy and you like it, then enjoy it. But its not what it's designed for. End of story.

There's an illusion on this thread that it's about knocking multi fins. Questions like, someone show me the drag. As Moore states, fins are all about drag and release. So of course someone could show you the drag...if you know where to look and what to look for.

There are statements in this thread by some suggesting they know more than Geoff McCoy about his surfboard designs... Obviously they are lifetime achievers in surfing themselves.

So who do you want to believe guys? You're free to choose.

Cheers
M.

, 1348024035

The origins of this thread were Geoff saying his boards were not designed as four fins and won't work as a four fin, specially the Zot. And they dont, as anyone who has the skill to push them hard off the bottom and into the pocket will note. Fact is they hold and won't break their line when asked. So it fucks up your timing through your turns. But if your just running lines you won't notice these issues.
If you've put four fins in a McCoy and you like it, then enjoy it. But its not what it's designed for. End of story

By: "marc atkinson"

, 1348029878

i cant comment on a Quad Zot, because i havent ridden one.My Zot(is still a single)and has been ridden with 5 different fins and the worst its gone is with the GULLthingo.However, the GF goes ok with drivey side fins when i jump on a longboard(not often).
i will comment on how a thruster nugget goes thats been fitted with 5 Future boxes.

initially, i took a gamble as i only viewed the board online.So between winning the auction and delivery i was constantly wondering IF the boxes had been inserted in the correct positions.My motivation for buying it was simply the convenience of travel and i prefer Futures over FCS(i had 3 surftechs).

After a months testing as a thruster my conclusion was it goes like a McCoy nugget thruster,no better and no worse.GOOD boards imo!

So i set it up as a quad, from the very first wave i noticed MORE speed and everybody knows that quads draw longer lines so it suits a couple of pointbreaks i frequent.

its been tested in knee to overhead waves,both on beaches and points.

no lockups, lockdowns, lockouts but plenty of locked ins

NO issues and its been pushed by a better than GOOD surfer

its by far the best sensation ive felt from a GM hull

quad up and fly FASTER!

, 1348053406

Hey Marc,

Still hoping to get the board, just need to find some cash that I put in a safe place (and subsequently forgot where!)

It's quite easy to get het up about what is 'right' or 'wrong' about design theory and crew are quick to get on the defensive. It challenges our beliefs and I think it's a positive thing that folk are willing to think about how and why certain things happen under their feet rather than just blindly swallow any old marketing tripe from the big companies... ....even if we don't agree!

I'm more than happy to discuss different points of view and while Geoff comes over as a bit cantankerous on occasion, he seems like a bloke who would rather have people asking questions than just swallowing what they are fed!

I think one answer may be that there is no right or wrong, but what is useful is finding out what works for you

, 1348102872

Geez Morg I got up your nose then, hey....

Firstly there was no personal reference to you or your Zot. You took it personally by choice. Secondly, as stated, If you've done it and enjoy it, all the best to you.

I don't know anything about the videos you refer to, so you've lost me on that, can't comment. Can't say anyone was called any type of idiot either... I did use the word ignorant, and that word described accurately the point I was making.

But as I said I got up your nose there hey.

But the fact is my life is people asking me about surfboards 24/7 and has been for decades. And a lot of it about McCoy. That's from decades of connection with McCoy.

My statements, though they may irritate you and others, are truth. You like your four fin adaption to your Zot. Great, I've already stated enjoy what you like. But to the hundreds of guys asking me direct or indirectly by reading this thread wondering, I can only repeat what is fact: It's not what the boards are designed for.

So for all the guys thinking of doing it, some might try because of your input, and some might pull back on the idea because of my input. You feel its a great move, others I know have forked out their bucks only to regret it and their boards end up on eBay. The opening point to this thread was, the cost of a conversion ain't cheap and may not give you the results you're expecting. And the reason given for that possibility was that it's not what the boards were designed for. And nothing's changed.

Cheers
M.

, 1348102981

PS: And Morg, let's not forget that a bunch of pages back it was stated that many issues regarding four fin adaptations to McCoy's may be somewhat overcome by doing exactly what you have done and experimenting with fins... but it does all add up dollar wise. Which I guess you could argue is a good investment, but it's my experience you're in the minority in this case not the majority.

, 1348103085

Cheers Moore,

Hope we meet someday when you're over here. When you get here check in with Swellnet to track me down. We can go surf up the mid-North Coast where I've got a bit of dirt. Stay as my guest a while.

I reckon that last post of yours says it all, nothin more to add. It's so on it, that for me it's the last say on the matter.

M.

, 1348174919

Marc, that's a really generous offer and gives me some extra impetus to get back over there!

Thanks again for the advice

I'm off to the UK Fish Fry/AB3 this weekend. There will be everything under the sun there; twins, quads, singles, finless, asymmetrics and handplanes. Hopefully there will also be a McCoy or two

15 years ago, it would never have happened. These times are good times!

, 1349577850

Off topic-I'm at the library and I just spotted Marc in the book Surfing-The Fundamentals.Store is stocked,plenty of McCoys in there.

, 1360737614

mc coy 7'2 nuggett for sale on gumtree central coast $350.

, 1367017970

I'm not being snotty or precious here but I reckon that if you honestly think that you know enough to turn a McCoy single or thruster into a quad, it's time to get the planer out. Take your McCoy, measure it up thoroughly, have a go at copying the shape yourself (on a custom rockered blank of your own choosing), glass it, filler coat it, put you plugs in where you think, sand it and off you go. It may or may not be what you want to surf, but you'll have had fun making it, might have learned something along the way, and all your materials will have cost no more than the earlier quoted $260 fee for said plugging (providing you do own the necessary tools). Oh and while you're at it make sure you put your own logo on it, it is now in some sense your design.

, 1367189315

Yes,thats possible,however,in a media interview GM states that he will give anyone 100k if they can reproduce his design accurately.No shaper has claimed the cash at this stage,so if the pro shapers aren't attempting it how much chance has a backyarder?
Making a board is a major operation, tools/materials/venue and body protection add up,so its probably just as economical to buy 2nd hand and install plugs & that way u get a REAL mCoy shape with a more efficient fin system.
$$$$$ 260 is way off the Marc, but the cheapest way is DIY with the plugs and fins from Ebay about $35-45 all up.the single mCoys are easiest as u don't have to grind the glassed on fins from the board, just laminiate some patches of 4oz, then holesaw the plug holes and glass them in.So only 1 tool for that job.Thruster mCoys need the back fin grinded off, the side fins can stay on & then the same procedure as a single.

, 1367200959

i bought my 7/0 with 5 futures boxes that were inserted @ chaos on sydnee nthside .the previous owner told me he was charged $100 fr that job.

, 1367208581

Gidday, its gonna be a mission stuffing around with his tails. The curves/dome
will be changed dramatically. The whole thing is tied together. So will the weight. Stunet or someone should get Geoff to comment, it will be entertaining!

, 1367215518

The curves are not altered at all,apart from the rovings that hold the trail fin of a thruster on.the weight of the the plugs and pads to sink them is extremely minor and if foam filled fins are used their buoyancy more than counteracts any minor weight gain.mCoys benefit from being WEIGHTY, the momentum which the weight provides enhances the wave riding sensation in all sizes and power increments

, 1367222942

Gidday quadzilla, I rode them for years, and rode one of his very first nuggets. Unless you have plugs with a curved surface it affects the curve, in all directions. He is very, fastidiously particular, which is why he is confident that they can't be duplicated. You, through your back foot supply the weight. He always wanted to make mine lighter, but I hated breaking them, so would beg him to glass them up. The light ones went insane, but, blacks is really hard on light boards.

, 1367225763

Hi UL,have a very close look at the domed bottom, the curves are VERY slight.....so the distance across a futures box or a fcs plug isn't going to interfere with the way the bottom holds onto a wave,but by providing more reaction from quads the whole nugget experience goes UP to a new level.
The surftech constructed mCoys use futures, which are a better system than FCS in my opinion AND the 3 STs ive owned performed very closely to the glass ones .Just don't ride them in strong offshores.

, 1371115651

http://www.my-surfboard.de/mccoy-surfboards.php
http://surfboardagency.com/mccoy-all-round-nugget/
apparently this range of epoxy McCoys are replacing the surftechs ????

so its easier to QUAD up......just add 2 trail plugs/boxes....

Butterbox to Manly, 1389700601

I've been really happy with one of Marc's passed on McCoy single fins. A 6'9" Double Ender, finer rails and less width / volume than the nuggets I've had before. And a bit more pin shaped in the tail. The single fin works well on this design. My experience is that the board needs to be designed for the fins. I have Murray Bourton quads which I love and a great Psilaksis thruster, but for me the Psilaksis doesn't feel right as a quad and the Bourton doesn't feel right as a thruster. As Murray Bourton and Simon Anderson have said in articles - designing a board that works as a thruster and a quad is extremely hard, despite the fashion for 5 fin plugs. Looking forward to getting my McCoy Double Ender into some big juice later this year.

quadzilla, 1389933723

that DE planshape is classic,i had one in late60s....which fin are you using?

Hiddenisle, 1396094072

That first photo Moore posted is a good friend of mine, he shreds on his mccoys and is easily one of the most stylish surfers I know, absolutely shreds. Guys his age watch him surf and ask what he's riding.. 20 yr old kids watch him and comment how well he surfs. Has a great understanding of how his boards work.
He writes the odd blog here and there, and have a look at his Instagram account if that's your thing, there's a lot of references to style and design. Lyttlestreet is his insty name and his blog is http://lyttlestreet.wordpress.com/

quadzilla, 1398994988

mCoy is retiring sometime this year, if anyone wants a custom,order soon

Roy Stuart, 1415048596

Cheyne commented on FB recently that Nuggets are designed to ride with the weight forward on the front foot.

Re. Gull Wings, we've been making these:

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0612/3841/products/Warp-Drive-gull-wing_grande.jpg?v=1414374020

murphy-s-law, 1428915263

Thanks

fraser-gordon, 1456703672

Hey Pan Doblao are you Garry Weed?

udo, 1456707242

Hmm I think Kerry 1 has changed shapers

quadzilla, 1456714147

More appropriate to post on April first Pan,you may get someone gullible enough to believe your BS

Roy Stuart, 1456716831

I've handled a McCoy Gull wing it had a very poor foil, typical of the lower end and one which I describe as agricultural.

You McCoy clones are like Moonies, but no brain no pain I suppose.

Roy Stuart, 1456716927

[quote=Pan Doblao]Hello Quadzilla. Hope you're doing well. Why don't you shoot me down using specific points, and I'll crush anything you have to say scientifically.[/quote]

Fricking Lol... 'fools rush in' etc... you don't have a snowball's chance of crushing anyone with an IQ over 80 in my estimation.

Roy Stuart, 1456717038

Actually though I agree with much of what you say, but some of it it is over the top stupid.

caml, 1456732889

Hey dude how come finless surfcraft are using non soft round rails to hold in ?

quadzilla, 1456736186

stick YOUR science FIGJAM!

udo, 1456737731

[quote=Pan Doblao]My approach to surfing a McCoy lately is to forget about any favorite surfer I have had or about any maneuvers I have seen or known about. Just catch the wave and pretend you are the only surfer you have ever heard of, and see what happens and go with the flow.
I prefer the Single fins, although I have a tri-fin that is awesome.
A McCoy surfboard is shaped to the actual energy and form of a wave. It fits the wave.
I like mine heavily glassed. It doesn't slow down maneuvers, it gives more momentum.
The Gull Wing Fin is the ultimate design to go in the water and hold on, with the least drag or resistance, and it gives more maneuverability. They are foiled specially for optimum performance.
Concaves oppose wave shape and water flow. They have no control or hold. They want to stay low on the wave and they don't like to turn, but like to suck flat onto the water, and drag. The bigger the board and the wave the worse a concave or flat or vee works.
Some may say, a catamaran speed boat is the fastest. Yea, on flat smooth water, and going straight. And they flip up and over all the time. They lose control easily. Surfboards never go straight, even when running down the line they are in a constant turn, and they deal with a curling wave that's curved and bent.
McCoy's stay high on the wave in the speed line. Good surfers ride the barrel mid faced not at the bottom, unless the wave is square.
Even the best big wave riders can hardly bottom turn, and if they do, they lose so much speed, because the four towed in fins and the wide point forward narrow tail drags, the rocker is all wrong, and the edges are too sharp. They barely have control. More control, more speed. The dome cuts through chop.

The tightest turns on the tightest spots on waves, I have done are on McCoys. I thought , how did that happen with such a fat rail. The myth is that a thin rail does that better. Wrong!
Thin sharp pointy edges are good for piercing flesh and steaks, like knives, swords, arrow heads, , but water flows. So people want a board that is sharp, angular, thin edges like hunting spears or something, and they think a round soft fat wide thick board looks boring and simple for novices. Dead wrong. Water flows and sticks and behaves differently. My blood boils whe I hear someone say, .."hard edges for more bite". Bite?!! Bite me! hard edges do the opposite of bite, hold is what they mean. Hard edges shoot water away and the board away from the water.[/quote]
Well fuck me...........Dorian ,Layer, RCJ and the rest of the chargers in the world are on the wrong equipment..you can hardly bottom turn boys,your board rockers are wrong and your quad fin setups are slowing you down...Brutus what have you done, introducing those deep single concaves ...the surfing world has gone backwards...............John John - pft poor effort at the Eddie..wrong equipment son ! ???
Pan ,what size Mccoy do you recommend for big Chopes ?

Coaster, 1456743240

Very amusing, Pan. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about a Ben Lexcen wing keel fin on a McCoy. That is, if you don't have to be going.

southey, 1456753096

That longer board of Derek's is the closest thing I've seen to Roy's plan outlines .

Roy Stuart, 1456767510

[quote=southey]That longer board of Derek's is the closest thing I've seen to Roy's plan outlines .[/quote]


Yeah I ogled that shape for the same reason. Perhaps just a wee bit of a fin could be added? :)

Roy Stuart, 1456767565

[quote=Pan Doblao]Hello Southey. Who is Roy?[/quote]

It's hard to say but he's also known as Tom Bloke and Luddite.

Roy Stuart, 1456768044

[quote=Pan Doblao]Roy Stuart. Nice Ad Hominem and circular reasoning and vagueness, not making a specific point. The Foil? Lower end of what? What was wrong with the Foil? What was agricultural about it? What is stupid about my points?[/quote]

Ad hominem yes, circular reasoning no, vagueness yes because i'm too busy to explain everything.

I refer to lower end of the scale in terms of quality of foil.

'Agricultural' I use to mean very basic, not refined, only good for digging dirt. The foil was about 50% flat and unfoiled, it is more or less just sharpened a bit at the trailing edge and rounded off at the front.

"What is stupid about my points?". That's a massive subject.

fraser-gordon, 1456783718

[quote=udo]Hmm I think Kerry 1 has changed shapers[/quote]
HaHa yeah he has gone soft lately.

quadzilla, 1456786069

Pan, only a month to go and its YOUR day !

Roy Stuart, 1456790594

Lol

Roy Stuart, 1456790682

You are wrong about the fin but I heard that Geoff is getting GW's cnc foiled now so they should be good. it is a nice fin planshape to be sure.

Roy Stuart, 1456791354

massive
[mas-iv]
Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
consisting of or forming a large mass; bulky and heavy:
massive columns.
2.
large and heavy-looking:
a massive forehead.
[b]3.
large in scale, amount, or degree:
a massive breakdown in communications; massive reductions in spending.[/b]

Roy Stuart, 1456791470

What does OLO stand for?
Rank Abbr. Meaning
OLO Only Laughed Once
OLO Optical Local Oscillator
OLO Ontario l'Original Railway
OLO Optimal Linear Ordering
OLO Big surfboard made by Roy (hehe)

Pan Doblao, 1456805577

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805597

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805616

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805642

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805662

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805697

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805727

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805755

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805784

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805807

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805823

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805840

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805866

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805882

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805900

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805917

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805946

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805963

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805979

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456805999

:)

Pan Doblao, 1456806019

:)

caml, 1456810333

Did u delete your posts pan doblao ? Back pedaling ? I wanted to read what u thought about the rails on finless boards

stunet, 1456810759

Caml, hope I'm not putting the cat among the pigeons here....

Anyway, I had a chat to Barry Regan recently. Barry is an ex-Cronulla fella, first guy to surf Lennox, and toothpick maker extraordinaire, he was saying that you get more hold on finless (at least finless 16' toothpicks) with a curved rail, not a hard and sharp one.

It's counter intuitive, people expect an 'edge' to hold better, but his experiences say otherwise. He's adamant that a round rail, when done right, gives better hold.

Roy Stuart, 1456813194

Pan d going on about how bad hard edges are and yet that's exactly what McCoy boards have.

Round rails I've been doing all the way to the tail for 21 years, Barry is right.

Roy Stuart, 1456813333

http://www.swaylocks.com/sites/default/files/Image245.jpg

Don smith shredda, 1456817427

Hmmmmm........

Don smith shredda, 1456821726

Have you read the SWAYLOCKS topic on the SHREDDA ......George Greenough still rides my product and loving it .......What do you think about that Roy .......when Billabong and FCS won't let their riders go anywhere near the product or try to advance to any Hi-Teck stuff all shapers are in trouble , how many of you guys have pro surfers riding your boards ???????

Don smith shredda, 1457008571

So do I ......anyone that shapes .....glasses .....sets the engine room ......polishes and spends his whole life designing boards that work for the industry I take my hat off to .....what a legend

caml, 1457260251

[quote=stunet]

Caml, hope I'm not putting the cat among the pigeons here....

Anyway, I had a chat to Barry Regan recently. Barry is an ex-Cronulla fella, first guy to surf Lennox, and toothpick maker extraordinaire, he was saying that you get more hold on finless (at least finless 16' toothpicks) with a curved rail, not a hard and sharp one.

It's counter intuitive, people expect an 'edge' to hold better, but his experiences say otherwise. He's adamant that a round rail, when done right, gives better hold.

caml, 1457260371

So barry regan is obviously an older gent ? Im not saying hes wrong im saying that theres often another way to skin a cat

quadzilla, 1495489331

Real mCoys are finished but a ghost will still do them in Byron.The GM planer has been hung up.A lap around the island then retirement in sunny Qld(2018).
Thai mCoys will still be available and good reports from people QUADding the XF Zots!

udo, 1503392523

A 9'2 loaded dome Mcoy single fin on Gumtree Sylvania...fine looking thing it is
$1400 as new.

Riverrat, 1532090197

Hi,
I would like to start by saying good on Geoff McCoy for his designs that I am sure fill the needs of many surfers. I understand someone being proud of their design and having confidence in its performance in all circumstances that you could possibly think of but its hard to think of all circumstances.
I am 67 year old surfer and I lost my right leg above the knee in a motor bike accident. I ride a variety of surfboards and the main thing that makes them work for me is being able to change the fin position. I can't choose the fin position on a new epoxy board because the designers understand the physics behind the design and they know where fins go.

redmondo, 1542443008

I am going give a McCoy a go. He makes a lot of sense to me. Like the designs too and I'm pretty sure I will be infinite and supreme pure LIGHT on a McCoy.

velocityjohnno, 1542499759

Well, I guess I missed a bit of the recent controversy in this thread but watching Nazarre got me thinking:

Udo:

"Well fuck me...........Dorian ,Layer, RCJ and the rest of the chargers in the world are on the wrong equipment..you can hardly bottom turn boys,your board rockers are wrong and your quad fin setups are slowing you down..."

Not that I disagree with your sentiment Udo (for the best in world are using this quad design and frankly I'm interested) - but did you notice how hard those 10' boards, long straight rail were to turn in the Nazarre comp. McCoy has merit here, the floaty tail and loaded dome would turn far more easily in those critical section, and the single fin would hold. If you all remember Cheyne surfed 30' Waimea, PADDLE, on a 5'8 McCoy modified Lazor Zap. So he's proved that wave can be paddled into. Now for Nazarre, anyone is going to need the length, but I wonder if a Zap style gun, paddled in similarly, could lift the performance considerably. Harder to see in reality as no one is riding them there at present.

simba, 1542515836

im sure they said Twiggys board was 90 liters ? fukkin lot of board to turn.

Island Bay, 1542566831

Lucas Chumbo was swinging his Lyle Carlson around like it was a 7'6. And those boards have super straight and narrow swallow tails:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp2kp-en8z3/

velocityjohnno, 1542578801

Lucas is probably most interesting to watch out there as he is pulling the board out of trim, almost pumping it to generate more speed like a much smaller board. He's getting massive drive off the bottom of the wave too.

As for the Zap, my experience surfing much smaller waves is that it will hold, hold, hold then release you into the most critical, steep part of the wave - where it likes to be. Then its pivot turns in the pocket are unmatched. Not sure I'd want that holding at 20ft Nazarre, but maybe a 9'0 version would get in sooner?

drodders, 1605257341

I know this is a really old thread, but I haven’t surfed a thruster for about 5 years...until about 4 weeks ago when I surfed a 2000 model McCoy shaped by Darren Rogers, water logged, heavy as shit in 3ft glassy waves.

After 4 waves when I worked out not to move from the rear it worked...really well, glide like a single pivot off the top.

Long story short I purchased a 6’3 XF nugget, so much fun, i have surfed it in 1-4ft waves, most of the time bumpy crap, it flies. I’ve had two surfs in 3-4ft clean waves - amazing.

Anyway I really am impressed, I probably could have gone a 6’1 or even a 5’11, and I still may yet.

I think, for me, thrusters have always worked with a wide tail, this thing just works.

Westofthelake, 1605261334

I hear ya drodders.

Tried 4 fins a long time ago, and just simply missed the drive that the thruster thou provide.

Speaking of old threads, here's a nugget I found in the swellnet sub-cockles where Cheyne Horan and Geoff McCoy discuss riding a 5' 8" in huge Waimea Bay.

https://www.swellnet.com/news/design-outline/2012/10/09/waimea-bay-58-two-surfers-rave-about-seemingly-impossible

quadzilla, 1605272519

Sorry to disappoint the last 2 posters but Quad Mcoys outdrive and outspeed any mcCoy thruster ive ridden(around 50 or so).

If ya wanta have sub par performance on a McCoy ride a single,then get on a 3 fin and get some performance.

Top speed is with NO fin on the stringer.

lostdoggy, 1605297084

“Tried 4 fins a long time ago, and just simply missed the drive that the thruster thou provide.“

Pretty sure it’s quads that offer drive which thrusters sometimes lack.

So might’ve been something wrong with the quad you tried.

stunet, 1605297372

All things being equal, more surface area means more drive.

lostdoggy, 1605298243

Lack of centre fin drag helps too, no?

stunet, 1605298706

Yep, through a turn, water runs across the rear fin at a greater angle which creates drag - but also stabilises the board.

Westofthelake, 1605301582

Ha well there ya go. It was a long time ago, and it does seem logical re the drag. But in that sense isn't 4 find more surface area than 3 fins and therefore more drag?

Maybe it's the stability that counterintuitively gives the driveability?

I mean I love a good cutty but remember that the quaddie was fast and easy, but a thruster just drives all the way through. I guess it depends on how fast you are going at the time, amongst other things.

stunet, 1605302441

Yeah, with no rider input, more fin in the water creates more drag, however multi-fin boards are pumped for speed, with the pumping motion pushing fin face against water - more fin face = more drive.

There's a lot to discuss here, and the fundamentals aren't that complex when explained in isolation. Might do an article on it soon.

Westofthelake, 1605303423

Cheers Stu. An article would be great. The nuances and science of design is way above my pay grade and any effort to de-mystify would be welcome.

Michael Bourne, 1605311680

‘however multi-fin boards are pumped for speed, with the pumping motion pushing fin face against water - more fin face = more drive.’

Oh oh... of course that obviously raises the subject of the effectiveness of the ‘pump’. Think surfing a wave pool wave generated by a pissy little fucker. Sure, you can tweak all the little fucker’s variables to up the anti so to speak, but it would be like flushing the dunny, and jumping in... (think dribbleton and mid coast aspirations).

We know that the reality is, that the pump required to generate anything close to prompting the likes of goofball drawing the mighty storm from the scabbard is a beast of a thing.

However... two ‘epic’ subjects that are enough to drive swillnut executives into a gnashing, quivering, foaming, in fact even deafening, red mist (again) style meltdown are...

‘DON’T EVER FUCKING MENTION STINKIN’ GLUTES OR FUCKING HAIR EVER AGAIN!!!!!!’

In a nutshell.

Michael Bourne, 1605315708

The moral of the story???!!

If you get a typical east coast, ne seabreeze grovel, or newies nobbies debacle, please don't come back to the shed slathering, and blathering, and foaming and squwarkin' and jibberin', and frothing, about 'power packed slabs' an' 'pits', an' 'bombs' an' 'wedges' an' 'foamballs' an' 'slammin'', an' 'jammin'' an' 'carvin'' an' shite...

Please don't... not again... please stop...

No my little swillnuts, deep down, we all know the truth about those 'ne seabreeze grovels, or newies nobbies debacles', we all see through the 'slathering, and blathering, and foaming and squwarkin' and jibberin', and frothing, about 'power packed slabs' an' 'pits', an' 'bombs' an' 'wedges' an' 'foamballs' an' 'slammin'', an' 'jammin'' an' 'carvin'' an' shite...' don't we...



Think... 'haiya lifty'... again...

Carry on swillnuttin'... little swillnuts...

indo-dreaming, 1605319982

If there really is that many guys going to the effort of changing fin set ups on his boards, it's obviously because one guy did it and liked it and words got around and others are trying it, otherwise how many people would really go to the effort of getting a three plug board changed too a 5 plug board?

It's all subjective anyway, surfing is just as much about how it feels for the surfer, if a guy changes a board from a thruster to a quad, and he prefers it as a quad, then it works for him/her.

Westofthelake, 1605346455

Got me thinking about the old 4 vs 3 fin setup and found the below info (which seems logical):

"One point, on which Kelly Slater, Jeff Clark and most other pros and shapers who have experimented with four-fins agree upon is that quads are faster than thrusters. This is because they generate more drive through a turn and are able to hold a higher line (whether being pumped or not) on steep wave faces. This performance advantage quads have is due to their greater-fin surface area, which results in quads slipping sideways through the water less easily than thrusters (they "hold" more), resulting in more of the riders energy being redirected into forward momentum. In other words; quads are simply more efficient and so better than thrusters when it comes to holding a high line and doing rail turns.

This means that quads perform well in particular conditions where a surfer needs as much speed as possible, such as in big waves, deep barrel sections and tiny, "gutless" beach breaks.

The Quad's efficiency in turns also makes them particularly suited to power-surfers who want to hack-n-hold their way through full-rail turns, cutbacks and lip-smashes like Taylor Knox. However they're not so good in conditions which favour a new school approach. This is because their extra-speed and fin-surface area makes it harder to perform release-and-recover manoeuvres such as tail-slides, air reverses and any other moves which require the board to slide side-ways or backwards. In comparison, the thruster's relatively inefficient fin-set-up makes it tail much freer when the weight is taken off it, allowing riders to perform new-school moves with greater ease."

I've got a Wayne Lynch thruster I could turn into a quaddie. That'd be new...

stunet, 1605349378

Yep, all that WOTL, and the reason quads want to run laterally is because the extra fin area tries to force the board 90 degrees to the way the water is moving, which, in the case of a breaking wave, is up the face.

Think of a rudderless boat turning beam on at sea.

All finned board will do it, but the effect is pronounced on quads due to fin area.

indo-dreaming, 1605389835

"However they're not so good in conditions which favour a new school approach. This is because their extra-speed and fin-surface area makes it harder to perform release-and-recover manoeuvres such as tail-slides, air reverses and any other moves which require the board to slide side-ways or backwards. In comparison, the thruster's relatively inefficient fin-set-up makes it tail much freer when the weight is taken off it, allowing riders to perform new-school moves with greater ease."

Hmm im surprised to read the tail slide bit, i find it much easier to slide the tail on a quad both forehand and backhand my tail rarely slides out with thrusters but with the quad set ups i run which are just average size fins push them hard and they slide, sometimes good if you pull of something amazing, but other times you just skip and slide and loose control.

Same with old school sliding 360s heaps easier on a quad.

I thought pros preferred thrusters as they just go better top to bottom, but I am surprised more pros don't ride quads.

I personally have a love hate thing with quads.

BTW. I've tried nubsters in quads and in theory they should work, but in my experience they suck, just feels like a quad dragging something, but dont have the benefit of a thruster, instead of the best of both worlds, to me it feel like the worst of both worlds.

drodders, 1605917554

I probably should have posted my McCoy post on a new thread, didn’t really want to enter the quad vs thrust debate. It’s a board that feels great to surf.

For the record every board I’ve ever had with 5 plugs ends up a quad, or twin or quad plus nubster (they really make a difference when finishing round house cutbacks on a quad).

I’m sure the McCoy I have would fly as a quad, but I’ve been surfing it mostly in dribble and it flies down the line and surfs vertically very well.

Jeffn, 1642047938

Thought I'd chime into this old thread. I have a McCoy nugget (XF 6'1") with the mini-gullwing fins and an Astron Zot 6'6" unmodified I've had for maybe 5 years.
The Zot has been a real love/hate thing for me. At first I hated all that volume but now a few years later (and nearly 58 years old) i am really appreciating the early take-offs and easy paddling. I think that's good at any age though but it was a difficult transition from shorter and much lower volume boards.

What I came here to say that was I'd stopped riding the Zot because it was just too unpredictable. Sometimes it'd go ok but then next wave I'd struggle to turn,, or get drive, or it would want to go a direction all on its own. Weird. Sometimes the speed would come out of nowhere and I'd fall off the back. Was I not standing in the right spot? Was the fin in the wrong position? Was I just bloody hopeless? Now and then something clicked and I'd have great moments but they were too far between. I also had other boards and would ride then of the XF nugget which seemed like a great board for me (even that, after forcing myself to get that back foot right back I recall the first time Ii got the weight where it needs it and WOAH !)

One day recently I decided to try a different fin so I replaced the gullwing with a standard looking 8.5" captain fin co - greenough. First time out I felt the difference immediately. More drive, better behaved with a wider range of acceptance of foot position and wave type. Was it just a fluke?. .... next time out, different waves (onshore and bit sloppy), again I nailed the conditions. Next time out, fast sucky waves demanding a take off at an extreme angle along the face to make it and plenty of drive.....again just killed it.

Today I thought I'd revisit the gullwing and after 4 or 5 waves I just paddled to shore. Man I cannot make that thing work like people say it does. I felt like I was stalling on the face, lacking drive and speed and felt a general lack of connectedness with the board. (mind you i have felt it drive well before but mainly on hollow waves. maybe its a hollow wave fin and not a general purpose fin...I don't know)

I'm a pretty average surfer but with the standard dolphin style fin I felt like I was really excelling. Even once got a comment from another surfer how he couldn't believe I made such a steep drop so deep on one wave and then made it along the face. I felt I could not do wrong with that fin.

So the moral is, if you're struggling on a McCoy single that has a gullwing fin, I recommend you try a different fin before you start adding more fins. For me and my surfing style the dolphin fin transformed the Zot from the unused rack to my favorite board. Maybe I'm just not good enough to make the gullwing work so I don't t want to criticise the design at all but feel its worth telling my experience . It was the first time I realised just how much difference to the whole board that the fin can make.

Jeffn, 1642048942

to clarify my previous message....... the fin changes were on the ZOT from gullwing to dolphin.

quadzilla, 1642091575

Yes,Jeffn I agree.

Ive experimented lots with all the fin set ups, over the last 25 years.

A standard fin with a longer base is a better all round option than the GF.

I have 6/4 and 7/1 Zots,great boards that I use as a change.Also the 6/4 doubles as a gun kneeboard.

The Zot with GF does best in clean grunt waves but dont all boards?

How are the mini gulls as a thruster?Ive watched GMs fin thing on YT, best thing since sliced bread?

Btw, its 10 years this year of riding Quad McCoys.Still the board I prefer in lots of conditions.

Jeffn, 1642111905

quadzilla, the nugget thruster with mini-gullwings goes well. I've never ridden that board with the normal fins though. They look small on the board but they impart plenty of drive and can turn real easy. I've never had my legrope catch on them like some people have been worried about. I can't imagine they will be any better than a standard fin though otherwise every board would have them. I think nature does it best, and fish fins are characteristically swept back. The only fish fin that looks like the gullwing is a humpback whale fin and they move pretty slow. So I reckon that most non-dolphin style fins are more of an exercise in artistic license than engineering.

I used to gravitate to things with esoteric appeal. I liked to avoid mediocrity. That's one of the reasons I bought the Zot in the first place........ but more and more lately I'm starting to give in to the idea that there is a reason that common things are popular. They work.

Anyhow the Zot and the dolphin fin has got me on a single-fin bender at the moment. The surf journey continues....no two days, or waves, are the same.......onward we go.......