What's what?
vj you didn't mention megafauna extinctions before. The picture there is not quite as clear as you paint it. If humans played a part then it was probably in the context of declining populations and likely that their impacts would need to be considered both for specific species and specific regions. Even assuming that they were responsible, look at the ecological stability since that time, that's at least 40,000 years.
I wonder if all civilisations around the world were somehow kept seperate from each other if they would eventually arrive at a similar point, in regards to technology, scientific discoveries etc????
Ok, lets say those of you using fire as evidence of Traditional Indigenous Australians causing mega-fauna extinction are right then. That means, according to your doubt free stance, that you believe that Traditional Indigenous Australians have been in Australia, as continual, unbroken Cultures, for at least 120,000 years as has been asserted, using fire activity as evidence. An absolutely ridiculously amazing achievement, which doubles the already not even remotely matched 60,000 year at least record. Western history looks even more feeble in that light, if that is possible! That 120,000 years is just too confronting for most though.
'The first to propose such an early arrival for Aborigines was Gurdip Singh from the Australian National University, who found evidence in his pollen cores from Lake George indicating that Aborigines began burning in the lake catchment around 120,000 years ago (Singh and Geisler, 1985).'
However,
'It seems likely that the introduction of the intensive use of fire as a tool did indeed follow, but was not directly a consequence of, the extinction of the megafauna. If, as has been suggested, the megafauna remained in some areas until the Holocene, then we should be looking for evidence within the last 10,000 years for changes induced by new Aboriginal burning patterns (Wright, 1986).'
Again, blinder highlights facts. Natural fire, combined with the type of plants, played a huge role in changing environment. Lightning fires still impact dramatically changed, but isolated regions.
http://anpsa.org.au/APOL3/sep96-1.html
In the same vein, this event needs to be taken into account when assessing the performance of Traditional Indigenous Australians.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130923093122.htm
Amazing what events Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures have continually forged ahead through.
The result is, we stole a rich, resource filled, unpolluted, prospering landscape. Which we have totally butchered in only about 200 years. Genius!!! Yes, that's not a misprint. 120,000 years, as you wish, compared to a blink of an eye disaster.
All this also takes away the burden of how bloodthirsty we are. How easily we lied about and butchered those, in a class of their own, successful, inspirational and prosperous people, with a not even remotely matched success record ever, in human history.
What we did, for such a period, what we perpetuate, is the vilest act in human history. Well below anything from the most primitive and unintelligent brutes.
Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures are extremely complex, sophisticated and thorough. They encompass in a beneficial way every aspect of being. Hence the success rate. Ours are primitive and base in comparison. Hence the track record of bloodshed, short lived collapse, environmental disaster, and epidemics.
Outstanding genius's have effects on our society. But the conditioning shapes the effect. Outstanding genius, so outstanding, that the end result was, as some of you so confidently, without doubt assert, a not even remotely matched 120,000 year, continual success story shaped Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures. Beyond any example of genius we have in our society. Take your pick, 120,000 years at least, or 60,000 years at least. What we have done, with what we brutally, maniacally stole, is a joke, an embarrassment in comparison. Stupidity, not genius. What we did to the most successful Cultures ever in human history, is a blight on humanity. A sickening, grotesque stain. Our stain. Cosmos here we come! The neighbour from hell!
Got to agree CK.
The evidence is compelling. When are we going to face up to it?
It all depends on how you measure success I suppose.
Quite a lot to be said for and against allowing humanity to expand its population exponentially as has western agricultural development, but expanded population and territory is basically the yardstick of any species success .
.........longevity is probably a better measure Blowin . The average species lasts a million years. We have survived less than a quarter of that.
Early days mate.
The way medical technology is going we might even be around to celebrate the Big Million.
If so , I suggest we spend the day on Swellnet bound in a circular argument .
Always good to go around in circles with you Blowin, it's great stimulation for the aging neurons.
Dare i say judging success on survival is a pretty low bar to set, seeing the only society not to pass no longer has decedents on this earth.
Expanded population and territory could me a measure of success you could also look at other areas too
-Exploration (like above)
-Science including astronomy ( i guess mathematics)
-Medicine (could even look at average lifespan etc)
-Defence (can they defend themselves or
-Arts/Culture/language/literature
-Infrastructure/monuments etc
- Organisation of society/politics etc
-Trade
-Agriculture/farming (self sufficiency etc)
Obviously other areas.
Basically has the society you are looking at developed and evolved and how much?
'Dare i say judging success on survival is a pretty low bar to set, seeing the only society not to pass no longer has decedents on this earth.
Expanded population and territory could me a measure of success you could also look at other areas too
-Exploration (like above)
-Science including astronomy ( i guess mathematics)
-Medicine (could even look at average lifespan etc)
-Defence (can they defend themselves or
-Arts/Culture/language/literature
-Infrastructure/monuments etc
- Organisation of society/politics etc
-Trade
-Agriculture/farming (self sufficiency etc)
Obviously other areas.
Basically has the society you are looking at developed and evolved and how much?'
In your eyes, the british just had to primitively, brutally, maniacally butcher, slaughter, massacre and rape a whole race of innocent men women and children, who had lived there for 60,000 years at least, some assert 120,000 years. A record not even remotely matched by any other Cultures in human history. Innocent cultures that for that whole time, never threatened or harmed the conniving, thieving british murderers in the slightest. The God fearing british, under oath, did all this butchering, slaughtering, massacring, raping, lying, cheating, and stealing, 'scientifically', whilst 'humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God'.
Your bottom paragraph really doesn't have anything to do with my post, but if thats what you want to talk about i will tie it into the conversation.
Right or wrong all through human history man has fought over other lands and resources, still happens even in this day and age.
Problem for the indigenous Australians is they were no match for the invaders so it was a slaughter rather than a war.
Hence fail one very important measure of success or possibly the most important aspect of being a successful group of people defending your own land and resources.
Indo the European invasion of Australia resulted in the loss of a huge knowledge base about this country. As whole tribes died from disease and mass murder their knowledge was lost. The result has been catastrophic environmental management ever since. If you want to measure success in terms of the ability to defend our "ownership" of the land then we comprehensively failed that test in WW2 when we had to be bailed out by the US and we still believe, probably falsely, that they would do it again. We cannot, on our own, defend Australia against invasion by a major power.
ID of course you can't see the connection. A beautiful example of extreme brainwashing and conditioning. And of course you believe that killing and war are necessary to success. Ditto above. Plus, some people feel good setting kittens on fire. Its all you can imagine and conceive, with the limited resources you have, and choose to have.
Its the exact defense a milat or gacy, or hitler would offer. If we viewed your primitive, brutish outlook from on an individual level, it would go something like this.
Bloke down the road has a basement full of bodies and captives that he is raping and torturing. Its 'natural', to him, a sign of power, superiority, success and genius, because he can overpower them. He's a scientist, but prays, bases his whole being on the bible. Swears by it. God told him it's ok, that he needs to go forth, multiply and conquer everything. Everything is his to use, his God given right. The conditioned, maniacal murderer needs more room, and for some time, he has had his eye on the house down the road, that generations of families have nurtured and lived in for 60,000 years, without harming anyone else in the street. Without any remorse, he lies to himself and everyone, claiming its empty, been deserted, that only a few feral vermin are in it, and that he will exterminate them, and exercise squatters rights. Then he murders, enslaves, tortures and rapes the occupants, and gets away with it again. So, he looks for another house. And so on. Ever more feeling more at ease with the whole thing, and more powerfull intelligent and successfull.
You come along and say its a sign of superior intelligence and success and that the victims deserve it because that's what people just do. In a nutshell. Again.
Your last paragraph gives me the feeling you're a little upset?
Over what exactly I can't tell.
Are you terrified by the fact that throughout history a 'white' man can cause damage on a tremendous scale that will be passed down through multiple generations?
Is it displeasing to you that a society, who happened to be British, stumbled upon this country to claim it their own?
Can you expect a civilisation, for lack of a better word, to last more than 120,000 years untouched, unbroken, unchallenged?
If you happen to be living in Australia, you're here because of it. If you happen to be human, the people that came here and 'slaughtered' are human too. You're one of them.
If you were on Captain Cook's ship I highly doubt you would have been 'that guy' that stood up and said 'We shouldn't do this'. Given the circumstances you would have leaped at the opportunity.
Oh yes we have been here before this is about where you say before white fella came Aboriginal tribes coexisted peacefully in some perfect utopia without any problems whatsoever, it was off course a garden of eden without sin, there was no murder, rape, violence, abuse, disputes.
Although this is the fantasy inside your head, we know that just like every culture around the world being human with humans emotions this is not true and disputes and warfare were common and tribes fought over an area for it's resources be it rich in some kind of wildlife to hunt or fresh water etc.
Like i said before Right or wrong all through human history man has fought over other lands and resources Indigenous Australians were no different.
'I heard the next door neighbours arguing, so I went next door and murdered, slaughtered, raped and tortured them.'
'Did they ever threaten or harm you in any way, in the 60,000 years they lived together there?'
'No, but that's no excuse!!!'
Fucking idiots... idiots of a feather!! Not every one joined the gestapo, or loves setting fire to kittens, even if you lot think they did, or do.
https://www.science20.com/cool-links/stupidity_contagious_science_says_s...
In a nutshell!
Stumbled is a good word as English were nearer to being the last to set foot on Australia.
At least 20 nations beat Cook to discovering/landing North'Eastern Australia coastlines.
A dozen nearby Nations have recorded visits and trade from 5,000 years ago.
Chinese/Japanese/Dutch/Danish/French/Portuguese/Spanish were all here before Brits.
Their maps/logs were secured by Britain. Cook had the coastline mapped beforehand.
1st contact is also purposely omitted from Brisbane's history of Moreton Bay.
First landing party The Bryant's log was stolen by Bligh onto Flinders to discover The Bay.
What! Convicts swanning Governor's finest then undermining nations favourite son?
Legendary interface of (Mothers/Children b&w) whitewashed by fervent soldiers tale.
It kinda fucks up the annual pompous reenactment of our heroic big brother's showdown.
Brits forever stole Maps/Logs then also Australia. Why Govt pretends otherwise is tiresome.
TBB You forgot people from now Indonesian islands possibly as early as 1500 period.
Indonesians would be included in the dozen 'nearby' nations.
Mid East/India/Sri Lanka/Makassins/Indonesia/Papua/Tonga/Fiji/Pacific Islands ect.
I do have a working timeline of the then named nations ... 'somewhere'(The List grows!)
Stories of visits feature high on overhang scarp paintings upon Top end shorelines.
Trade winds returned the same visitors to same' trading shore' time again.
Oz Aborigines rafted/canoed return Ocean tides. (Canoe route from Tasmania-Sth America )
realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Ancient_American_affinities/American_affinities.htm
Blood lines & cultures were interwoven with Australia's already 500 language nations.
In Today's multicultural Australia fewer than 200 language nations survive.(20 at risk)
Mind you, if one strayed off the land trade routes you'd be as good as a dead man.
Next door's invading hoards forever spearing guilty folk in the leg.
Regional Bunya Harvest,Sea festivals,Arena Tournaments even Totems relaxed trespass.
Together with orchestrated smoke signal network and message runners shamed the NBN.
Whoops okay my apology, i missed that bit.
anyone interested in what's happening in politics these days or is it under the heading of who gives a toss?
i'm just here shaking my head and wondering how did it come to this
It came to this because of greed and complete loss of moral compass.
Australian politics is rapidly descending into farce. The last PM to finish a term was John Howard. In the political horse race Simple Power has won by several lengths, with Prejudice and Ideology taking the places narrowly from Personal Wealth and Keeping Up Appearances. Far back in the field Justice just failed to hold off Sound Governance to finish in last place.
Talcum Malcolm under the pump..
Do you hear all that flapping and clucking? It's the Australian electorate's chickens coming home to roost.
You're on the money BB, you need binoculars to spot any sort of governance for the people.
https://www.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/bachelor-ratings-crash-as-...
We now have the parliamentary stability of Italy.
These guys are the masters, though:
That second video puts the WWF to shame.
I have been saying for a while now that after the next general election there would be an almighty brawl inside the liberals, possibly as bad as the ALP/DLP split, the events of the last few days suggests to me that the infighting has begun. The problem is that the liberals are now mostly a ultra right political party, not conservative but reactionary.
So it is with great pleasure I say let the implosion begin. Fuck them.
........ one other thing just to confirm that Murdoch is in town, ready to have his arse kissed by his next puppet.
............ sheepdog, got anything here?
Ultra right?
Whats ultra right?, is that before or after far right and extreme right?
Historically and globally speaking even One nation is not that far right, id just call them right wing, Liberals centre right (with some in the party wanting to push a little bit back towards right some wanting to push more centre)
Makes you wonder if we actually need a government.. Clarke and Dawe ..
Don't let the revolving door hit you where the good Lord split you ..
It's after 'extreme right'and before 'catastrophic right'. After that you have 'complete right' which is actually so far right it's gone full circle back to far left.
And he's still blaming Abbott...
The issue, from my perspective, is probably better defined in terms of the Tories versus the rest. The Tories being the party of the wealthy that can only hold power by using its influence to con elements of the working class into believing they will help them. This is usually achieved by creating division along racist or religious lines. John Howard lowered the bar significantly as PM and set the scene for the current crop of nasties who have lowered it so far that even sadistic snake-like arseholes such as Dutton can slither over it. It would be nice to think that whatever happens with the Liberal Party tomorrow, they will lose the next election. Australian political history suggests as much, but these days nothing is certain.
A party of old men pursuing a discredited and bankrupted ultra right political, economic and social agenda, what could possibly go wrong in a modern secular society like Australia?
@ guySmiley
Yes, we are ineluctably a modern secular and dynamic society. We must protect and cherish this and remember we have been fortunate hitherto - we are seeing disturbing rifts in the national polity. I would nevertheless also argue that a party of ultra left morally vain complacent living old men, is also potentially a party of dangerous and dictatorial idealism and sanctimoniousness with the potential to cause great chaos - and celebrate it like naked emperors.
A move towards pragmatic well considered centrism is the only thing that will save and secure western liberal democracies into the future . . . no, it's not a gutless stance . . . merely an effective tool to facilitate stable and reasonable continuity and cohesion that constructively listens to and acknowledges all voices and opinions and implements common sense policy for the benefit of all. The polar extremes, those who give no quarter, baulk at the notion!!!
Thankfully there are parties like the LDP with a libertarian bent, and Corey Bernardi's Australian Conservatives - more like what the Liberal Party once was. There also exists the Country Party now (rural and protectionist), the Sustainable Australia party (has the Greens' traditional population policies) ; One Nation if people wish a return to borders and protectionism of industry and vocations (traditional Labor values would scoff at 457s), Family First (and Tony Abbott!) for those who have traditional Christian values. So heading up to election time, if you want to vote 'right' (a minority here on Swellnet), research all these and others you may find to match your wishes.
As Bernardi says:
"The Liberal Party were once the party of free enterprise, limited government, civil society, lower taxes and stronger families. It has now become a shell for those who don’t fit into Labor but still want to pursue a political career."
https://www.corybernardi.com/it_s_a_party_full_of_the_wrong_people
Electorally, next government will be either Lib or Lab/Grn, probably the latter. Next government gets a substantially different economic environment, and perhaps not for the better as the adjustments have already begun. All this turmoil in politics in the last 10 years and we haven't even had a proper recession to go through!
VJ, how do you figure that the Sustainable Australia party is of the right?
Im not sure if Right or Left but The Sustainable Australia party, is the true Greens party tackling the biggest Green issue every to face us and the cause and fuel of almost every green issue "Unsustainable Population Growth"
They should be called the "True Green party", and the Greens change their name too "The inner city hipsters party"
The funny thing with that list of parties above and objectives, almost everyone agrees with their views, protection of Australian farming industry, protection of Australian jobs and industry in general, sustainable population growth and common sense planning, (okay maybe not the Christian values thing)
I mean how many times have we had topics here with everyone whinging about how all our jobs are going offshore and how farmers don't get the support and protection they need and complaining about crowds and development etc
Problem is its just one or two of the extreme views that put people off, mostly the social views.
I'm not sure you would find broad agreement on protectionist policies indo. As the US is finding out, it cuts both ways and when everyone starts doing it the result is increased prices and decreased employment across the board. The Australian economy is incredibly dependent on exports. If we introduced tariffs on manufactured goods they would introduce tariffs on our mineral and agricultural exports. The solution to job losses caused by competition from overseas is better social policy, retraining at existing wage levels, decentralisation of services to affected areas, greater investment in education also produces a more flexible work force. The far right wing solutions of protectionism and reduced immigration reduce economic growth which is why traditional conservative parties in the Tory tradition do not implement those policies.
"Im not sure if Right or Left but The Sustainable Australia party, is the true Greens party tackling the biggest Green issue every to face us and the cause and fuel of almost every green issue "Unsustainable Population Growth"
Have you read the Greens policy on population?
@VJ,
Australia's cultural advantage over the US is a lack of Libertarianism and god help us if it ever takes off here.
Andy I was trying to group a series of alternatives, hence using 'right' with single inverted commas. Similarly, the protection of workers that ON proposes is certainly not a right wing phenomenon. Everybody forgot the workers!
Stu - at least there is a party for the 2% of people who would vote Libertarian. The majority of the country approves of Govco in their lives, that's just the way Australia is. You have nothing to fear. And I've come around to accepting it! Our healthcare system is excellent and the US version would be a horror. There will be socialism and borrowing until we reach IMF bailout status (then more borrowing to sustain the bailout). Anyone remember the $700 Rudd dollars Christmas present in the GFC? Retailers sure do.
The biggest advantage of Libertarianism would be freely competing private currencies, where the best should be the one that does not dilute savers' funds and earnings through targeted inflation each year - and perhaps we see a bit of this in crypto. Imagine 100 years where no inflation occurred, imagine the savings yourself and your children/grandchildren could build in that time without 'the tax only one man in a million understands'. Imagine the - real - economic growth. (Hint:1815 to 1914 under a floating gold/silver standard world wide based on weight of metal, not arbitary definitions of value. The economic growth then puts today to shame.) Murray Rothbard is a boss in describing this.
Anyway, party spill on this afternoon? Place your bets on next PM...
@Stunet
Yes and like most greens policies it's wish washy and full of contradictions.
Its not groundhog day again, surely not.
Some thoughtful comments covering interesting ground on the political spectrum within this humble forum in the last few days; overall, remarkably restrained, considered and civilised. It would be nice to see our political leaders demonstrating authentic civility and occasionally offering up some bipartisan goodwill in the process. Is it really too much to ask?
BTW, with all his mendacity and chicanery, is the Trumpster finally inching towards impeachment or will he pull off a political Houdini?
spuddy, impeachment is unlikely. The Democrats might win the House in the mid-terms but the Republicans will still control the Senate, which is the key player in the impeachment process. The more likely result is that, like Nixon, he will be allowed to resign.
@ blindboy,'
You're right there. The Republican senate majority will remain the impenetrable barrier in dealing with this clown; the lies and subterfuge are now perversely hilarious, however his devoted "fake news" fan base and those in the senate with too much to lose, will only feed into the convenient delusion that Trump is the victim.
Long but very interesting so far at 30 minutes.
"Horizon is a Pentecostal Christian church where pastors give rousing sermons, and followers can sometimes speak in tongues and engage in "divine healing"."
"Horizon Church senior pastor Brad Bonhomme says Mr Morrison and his wife Jenny and daughters Lily and Abigail are regulars at the church on a Sunday, when more than 2000 people attend services.
More recently work has thwarted Mr Morrison's regular attendance, however, his wife and daughters are heavily involved in the church's children's program."
I wonder how "pastor Brad" feels/felt about Sco mo's other "children program", the one where they are kept in detention and Australia turns a blind eye to kids trying to kill themselves and end up in a catatonic state.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-pentecostal-prime-minister-i...
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